Jeff Sherman Meets World (again)

Season 4 has brought the gang through some truly iconic Boy Meets World moments, and now we get a peek into the writers room for some insight into such a glorious time for Cory, Shawn, Topanga and Eric.

Writer / Producer Jeff Sherman is back on Pod Meets World to explain some of the most memorable storylines and sensitive topics that set BMW apart from every other show on TV.

Hear all about how the sausage was made for Season 4, what really went on in the writer’s room and why we need more appreciation for The Monkees - on this week’s Pod Meets World!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Some Boy Meets World in Pop Culture News. We got
a lot of emails about all three of these things.
And first up is a new movie out called Boy
Kills worlds Well sent it in our group chat. We
also got a lot of emails about it. There were
a lot of comments on social media. It comes out
in April, but the trailer was released last month and

(00:41):
it stars Bill Scarsgard, Jessica Roth or maybe Roth and
Brett Gelman. It may have similarities to the name of
our show, but that's about where it ends. The movie
is about a deaf man named Boy who escapes to
the jungle after his family is killed. He's then trained
by a mysterious mentor to enact vengeance on the murderers.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh god's my dream movie.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
It's like kill Bill, right, it's a very kill Bill
John Wickish.

Speaker 4 (01:09):
Right, you want to star in that movie?

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Will If they're the like the the lead guy.

Speaker 5 (01:15):
Is this really out of shape guy who doesn't really
pick up the martial arts quickly?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I'm the guy you call. That'd be great. I get
to the first you know, it's always like a video game.

Speaker 5 (01:24):
You've got to go level by level and you get
to the bad boss, right, and be killed at the
first level every single time.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
I think you sell yourself short.

Speaker 6 (01:32):
Yeah, but do we think.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
The title is a reference to boy Meets World? Did
boy meets World create that phrase?

Speaker 4 (01:39):
Meets World?

Speaker 2 (01:39):
No, boy meets.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Girl, Right, So I think it was a development.

Speaker 7 (01:42):
I think it was boy meets Girl is like the
saying or the phrase, and then boy Meets World was a.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Play on that.

Speaker 7 (01:48):
And now it does seem like boy meets World has
entered enough of the like cultural zeite guys that you
can build on off that, right, Yeah, so it's like riff.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
It is sort of a riff on our I mean.

Speaker 7 (01:59):
I think because howels because I remember when Boy Meet's
World was the title, when that was announced before we
did or we had already done the pilot, it.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Was we were all like kind of and then it
just kind of got used to it.

Speaker 7 (02:13):
And now it's totally like, I can't imagine it being
called anything else, but it wasn't.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
I don't think it was a great.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Title at first it either.

Speaker 7 (02:22):
But yeah, I can't even I can't even like reset
my brain to that feeling because.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
I can't show I.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Have no memory of it's just like right being the thing, right,
and I wonder.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
If most people feel that way. Now you know it's.

Speaker 5 (02:34):
Because you when you booked it, though, because now we've
seen the original original.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
When you booked it, was it the Ben Savage Project
or was.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
It eleven untitled Ben Savage product?

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Okay, so I never saw it. It was eleven.

Speaker 7 (02:45):
Yeah, so the pilot that you got, because you actually
send it to me and I haven't watched it. You
sent want the original you did, and it was called
eleven in that Yeah, yeah, okay, so it must have
been untitled Ben Savage. Then they tested eleven, right, and
then they were like, Nope, that's not gonna work, and
this older brother's not going to work, and that dad's
not gonna work, and so they made all those changes.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, But I remember.

Speaker 7 (03:05):
Going back to BOYL and being like what they talking
with my parents being like I don't like this, but
now I totally love it.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah, perfectly.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
I want to clarify.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
I think we had talked about this very early on
in the show, that we had seen the original pilot,
that Will had found it. I think we talked about
it on the show, but just in case we haven't,
Will had a copy of the original Boy Meets World pilot.
That was the one we saw called eleven and no,

(03:36):
I'll answer your question now, we will not and cannot
post it. But it had the original cast members, the
original Eric and the original Alan Matthews.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
So we we have seen it, but we know we
will not share it with you.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
As much as we'd love to, we would be sued
to high heavens, yes so fast.

Speaker 7 (03:59):
Something that's with the title that's always struck me is
like I realized after we finished the show, Like you know,
if I talked about the show ever in my life,
and I know we all when we talked about it,
we always referred to it as boy.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Boy like we were just shortened it to boy, but
fans didn't do that.

Speaker 7 (04:16):
Like within the production we always said, oh I got
to go back to work on boy, or we're in
a new season a boy like That's how we always
referred to it. And it was like later I would
make that reference to non production members.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
That it'd be like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 7 (04:31):
And if anything, it would be shortened to like BMW
yeah yeah, which is so weird because we never called
it that, like we never were like you know, and
so I wonder where that's at now because I'm assuming
we still call it boy, like do we I don't
know on this show do we call it?

Speaker 1 (04:46):
I call it BMW and anything that's written bmwbmwbm do
anything written is BMW. I will say, especially if we're
ever talking about boy versus girl, Like when somebody comes
up to me and talks to me at a con
and they say, like playing Topanga and they have a
question about it, and I'll say, well, when we were
doing boy and then and then, but then when we
did girl, and so I I do notice that, I'll

(05:09):
do that.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
I say it like that.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
I just call it fuller house, which is really confusing,
how that you know.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
What you're right now that now that you mention it
my show is that? Where my show Eric Matthews Show.
When I was on my show, I was on So
Second Up. One of TV's best and brightest stars in
my humble opinion, was on Hot Ones with Sean Evans,
a show where celebrities eat escalating hot wings.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
During an interview, I.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Want to do that.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
I want to do it.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
I want to do it.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
Well, you took the kalas off of my plate. Last night.
We had dinner at like taking a kalipino off of every.

Speaker 7 (05:49):
Single piece of sushi that they were serving.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
You were like, you're not going to eat those.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Let me tell you something, right, if we ever got
offered to do hot ones as a trio and you
said no and then we didn't get to do it,
I would not kill you, but I would think.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Can you tap out? Can you stop? Yes, I've never
seen it.

Speaker 7 (06:13):
I could just tap out before we even started to
be like, yeah, you can tap out.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Milk God the option.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
You could have any type of milk you want, but
milk is counteracts the heat, so they let you could
have an oat milk.

Speaker 7 (06:29):
Much eat like bread. Isn't it better to eat something
that like sort of absorbs the oils.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
They let you do that though.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
When we were in Thailand, I ate the hottest fries
I've ever eaten in my life, and nothing was working.
I was like, anything, give me regular fries, give me bread,
give me a cracker or anything.

Speaker 4 (06:46):
And milk did actually help.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
It helps a bit.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
The time I got to milk, I was like, Okay,
this is working a little bit.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
It's a stop gap to get you to the bathroom.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Correct, this is so awful.

Speaker 6 (06:58):
Why do you do this too.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
We want to do it.

Speaker 8 (07:01):
I want to do it.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I want to do it. I do so.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
In this segment, Sean is rapid Fire asking Quinta Brunson
questions and her thoughts on some classic sitcoms. And she's
from Abbott Elementary I've never seen. He is incredible and
she's just I absolutely love her. I follow her on Instagram.

(07:24):
She's one Emmy's She's she's like an EP. She's so
freaking smart and wonderful. Anyway, Boy Meets World is mentioned,
and here's the clip, and remember she's currently trying not
to die from wing heat.

Speaker 9 (07:36):
Okay, world great in Philadelphia, mister Feenie legend, interesting cast,
one of the first interracial couples on on our on
our TV screens that we just allowed in every day.
Good to Panga, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
That's fine, to Panga, that's fine.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
That's a bunch you though. That's a fun name.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I loved it and everybody kept sending it to us.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
So great, so fun.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Always fun to see a Boy Meets World mentioned, like
in the wild, you know, like when it's on Jeopardy
or something. I always think, Wow, that's so cool.

Speaker 5 (08:17):
I'm still waiting to see one of our Pod meets
World shirts in the wild was I saw one? A
guy walked onto an airplane with one, but it was
coming back from one of our live shows.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
I think, what about the counts?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
What about the football player who got injured during the
Super Bowl? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:31):
Oh j yeah that counts.

Speaker 10 (08:34):
You were one of our shirts, right, I met like
in like I actually, yeah, he went to the mall
or something, and it's like, and I never go to
the mall, so that probably won't happen, but somewhere where
I'm like, hey, Pod meets World shirt, that would be cool.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, finally, this one has been brought to my attention
a lot, and it involved another best and Brightest star,
Elvis himself some might.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
Say Oscar nominee.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Austin Butler, the thirty two year old was asked on
the Drew berry More Show about who his first crush was,
and here is his answer.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
It was your first crush.

Speaker 11 (09:07):
I think, like Topanga on what was that show? Was that?

Speaker 8 (09:10):
Boy? Is that?

Speaker 6 (09:12):
What was that?

Speaker 7 (09:13):
Well?

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Say you find a boy in this world? Which one
is it? Boymous world?

Speaker 8 (09:17):
To me?

Speaker 6 (09:17):
Manga?

Speaker 4 (09:20):
Okay, So it sounds.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Like just a bunch of clips of celebrities talking about you.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Hmm, is that what you you found? Shatter?

Speaker 6 (09:31):
And another time people loved me and here I was
the world crush.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
From getting asked about Boy Meets World And then one
that's Austin Butler saying I was his crush.

Speaker 4 (09:44):
Outed this whole thing.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Now, you guys.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Accusing me of it being about me.

Speaker 8 (09:47):
No.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
I thought that was very cute and people sent it
to me all over the place because Austin Butler is
obviously I mean, he's a smoke show and that's pretty
cool to be his first crush.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
But also I just want to play this clip because.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Because it from a few months earlier when he was
promoting Elvis and weirdly w magazine asks him, who was
your first crush?

Speaker 4 (10:09):
And here's what he said.

Speaker 8 (10:11):
It was my cinematic crush.

Speaker 11 (10:12):
I had a crush on to Panga from as A
Saved by the Bell. Oh, to Pega from Boy Meets
World It's not Saved by the Bell?

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah to Penga, Yeah, I watched that a lot.

Speaker 8 (10:24):
As a kid.

Speaker 11 (10:25):
I feel like that's the first time I remember having
a crush.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
He's stilling a cool and cool. I don't know, I mean,
I don't know what show it was, Mike, Why keep
doing a bit?

Speaker 4 (10:34):
What do you keep doing a bit?

Speaker 8 (10:35):
Bro?

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, it's a bit.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
Elvis's Creek the first one? Which one to get it?

Speaker 4 (10:41):
You didn't remember? Saved by the Bell? Couldn't couldn't get
it right? Who was it? Save by the Bell? Just
a few months.

Speaker 6 (10:47):
Later, you know he's got he's got a lot in
his his play.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
He's dealing with a lot.

Speaker 7 (10:53):
He's still it's like Saved by the Bell and boy
means world occupy the same part.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Of his uh, his brain. You know that was a
good show.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
I think he's still doing the Elephs voice I can't.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Get rid of and send one out to her.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Let's let's keep our yours open. I wonder if he's
gonna do it a third time.

Speaker 7 (11:14):
Show.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
At this point, no one out there doesn't know the answer,
so no one will ask him that same question again
and yet again.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
Who's your first crush? Anyway? Welcome to Pod Meets World.
I'm Daniel Fischel, I'm writer Strong, and I'm Wilfredell.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
So if you have been listening to the season four
episodes of this podcast, you know that, without a doubt,
this has been the absolute best run of Boy Meets
World we have seen so far. There have been so
many iconic moments, memorable storylines, legendary quotes, peak performances, and
hilario jokes. It has caught us completely off guard. How

(12:03):
did this particular run of scripts and ideas for twenty
two episodes of the show become what appears to be
an undeniable sweet spot?

Speaker 4 (12:10):
What happened? What was different?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
How did they bat so close to a thousand? We've
thrown out ideas like increased budget, a comfort over time
with the production schedule, a shift in the writer's room,
or a newfound commitment to other characters. Anything is possible,
but we want to know more about it. So to
talk about the excellence that is season four, we are
welcoming back one of the core members of the creative team.

(12:34):
His name has appeared on some of the most classic
Boy Meets World scripts, and from what we've seen so
far in season four, he wrote Shallow Boy, Dangerous Secret,
and an Affair to Forget Quite a trio. So please
welcome back to Pod Meets World. Writer and producer Jeff Sherman.

Speaker 7 (12:51):
Hey, hi gotcha?

Speaker 6 (12:57):
Are you not?

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Did you give up your more? And this is not
an exaggeration.

Speaker 5 (13:02):
Sixteen mile walk to come and talk to us today.

Speaker 8 (13:06):
I would give up seventeen miles for you.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
He walked sixteen miles. He walked sixteen miles a day.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
That's amazing.

Speaker 8 (13:15):
I got into a pattern of walking eight miles a day.
But then about twice a week, I'll try to get
down to the beach and I'll just walk in the
bike path for sixteen miles.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
So and you're listening to Podmeet's World the whole time.

Speaker 8 (13:26):
I actually do.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
I love it.

Speaker 8 (13:31):
You could staff over by, I walk and I just
get lost in what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Screaming at us the whole time. You're like, that's not what,
that's not right. That's once in a while, it's just
I wish I could just you know, all in. Yes,
that's why we had you back. That's why we had
to have you back.

Speaker 8 (13:49):
I'm so honored to be back you guys. It's great.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Well, we wanted to bring you back on the show
to talk about the magic that has been season four
and what was happening behind the scenes while like all
this classic was being made.

Speaker 8 (14:02):
Well, you know, I've been on the show from the
very beginning, not the pilot itself, but I came on.
My first episode was on the Fence, the first episode
that aired out, so I'd been on it the whole
time and seen different iterations of the staff. You know.
The first year it was like a doctor in Strauss
kind of year in April Kelly, and then they all left,
and then it was David Kendall for a couple of years,

(14:23):
and then the fourth year, Bob Young came on and
David left. I think he'd had enough of it, really know.
We never really talked about it, but it's sort of
the same way you guys are with the cast. People
would leave the staff and we would never hear why,
but you know, it just kind of happened, right. So
fourth year came on and I loved Bob Young. He

(14:43):
was great. He was a perfect kind of a counter
to Michael. He was really kind of, you know, joke
structurally interesting things. He had sort of different take on things,
and he was sort of a voice of reason sometimes
when when you that writer's room.

Speaker 6 (15:00):
So interesting.

Speaker 7 (15:02):
Yeah, he was a very different personality because I mean
to be honest, like Bob, he sort of he for us.
He was not like very aggressive, he was very sort
of the nicest Yeah, totally the nicest guy. But I
always remember, like if I was having a conversation with Bob,
it was like, okay, we've been thinking. It was always
so reasonable and sort of like, here's what's been going on.

(15:22):
He's just such a great guy, but a very different
energy than like the rest of the writing stuff.

Speaker 8 (15:26):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, you know, the great thing with the
writing staff is you tend to get you know, when
you when you fill a writer's room, you get people.
It's like a baseball team. You get somebody's good at hitting,
somebody that's good at pitching, somebody that's good at fielding, whatever.
And so that room the fourth year, I think it
really kind of came together and there was a lot
of cooking there. You know, we had bloodin bus Gang
Minell was there, he was that, Matt Nelson was there.

(15:51):
I don't completely remember the whole was Kevin there, Kevin
Calton maybe he might.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
Have been Kevin Kelton, Susan Estelle Janson, Steve.

Speaker 8 (15:58):
Hibbert came in the gimp.

Speaker 7 (16:04):
I remember you telling me this was after boy Me's World.
I remember you you said basically the same thing you
just said, and you put it so well and it's
something that's it's like a lesson that's always stuck with me.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
You're like, look, right, are there are? There are really
kind of three types of television writers.

Speaker 7 (16:16):
There are those who are good on the page, there
are those who are good in the room, and there
are those who are good at both. And you're like,
and you kind of need them all, you know, like
and you weren't saying that like one was better than
the other. You were just like, there's different different, and
that's really stuck with me. And I think that's super true.
Do you where do you fall?

Speaker 8 (16:33):
Are you?

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Are you good at both?

Speaker 8 (16:34):
Or you know? I'm When I went into the writer's
room the first year, I was kind of shy. I
didn't really I'm not a stand up comedian. I hadn't
been used to being in writers' rooms. But by the
fourth year I was pretty good at speaking up and
pitching stuff and adding jokes to people's things. You know,
I pitched a bunch of stories that got made for

(16:54):
the season that some of them I didn't even write.
You know, I kind of got it for me. The
fourth season, the age you guys were at, you know,
we went from being a kid showed a sort of
like an older adolescent show.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (17:07):
Yeah, So it opened up a whole bunch of stories
I was more comfortable with, and I got to do
a couple of stories that I really wanted to do.
For the four years, you know, I earned a little
bit of cred with Michael, and so for instance, one
of the shows that I wanted to do all four
years was A Dangerous Secret of the Beauty and Michael

(17:29):
said the first you know, I just got laughed out
of the room. The first year they went, really, we're
going to do an abuse show with a little kid.
And then second year and so finally I was only
contracted for three years and I was getting offers from
other shows I kind of wanted to go to. I
loved you guys that I wanted to stay. But there
it was a little tents in the room. I'm not
going to get into why, but it you know, there

(17:50):
were some political things going on and stuff, and I
was I was feeling it, and so I was kind
of looking around and Kendall left, and I think Michael
kind of freaked out because he was so important to
the show, and so I was going to leave. I
got an offer to go to do something else.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
We'd wait, I want to know what was the offer?

Speaker 8 (18:06):
What was the for you know what I'm saying McCarthy show.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Okay, okay, right.

Speaker 8 (18:11):
And so U and they were kind of coming to
me and would you leave? Would you? And I'm forgetting Yeah,
it kind of you know, they were going to offer
me a promotion and raise and it's an adult last
three episodes? So is it is better?

Speaker 7 (18:25):
So the industry is so crazy now, I mean, because
you think about that position you're in and you're like, yeah,
I've got it, you know. I mean, it's a great
position to be in in your career where you have
already have this this this body of work and established show.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
But do you take the risk?

Speaker 7 (18:38):
You know, because if that had gone, that could have
been the next Friends for you know, and then it
could have been launched your career in this whole other way.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
But that's the other question is does it go more
than three episodes?

Speaker 5 (18:48):
You never know running it it went three because he
didn't go maybe it goes longer if Jeff we're there.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
So it's you're gambling every single time you take it.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
And it's so hard to predict because we've all read
those scripts.

Speaker 7 (18:59):
That were like, well this is a slam dunk, or
you see those casts that you're like, well, this cast.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Can't lose, and then it does. It doesn't matter. It's
just so hard to know.

Speaker 8 (19:07):
There's so many factors. It's where it's programmed in, you
know what it's following. There's all these different things, so
you know on for so, Michael said to me. He
took me in his office. He said, I want you
to come back, and I said, well, I'm getting these offers.
He goes, I know, but how about I'll let you
do that show you want to that episode, said so,
and I said, and the other thing I want to
do by the end of the year is I want

(19:28):
to get Eric into college. And I just felt that
was the feene Eric thing all the way. If you
look at if you trace my episodes, it's the sat
it's all the different things I really want. Eric was
always really bright, and I felt that Corey knew that
because if you see Eric kind of plays goofy around
other people, and when he gets serious with Corey, he's

(19:49):
really smart. He gives them, he almost gives them Feenie
advice in his own way.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Wow insight.

Speaker 8 (19:55):
Yeah, And I knew Will, I knew all you guys,
and I just went, he's so smart, and you know
what I said. Anyway, So the dangerous secret when I'll
go back to so Michael in the room was like,
I remember, I was getting real opposition. That's gonna be horrible.
It's gonna oh serious of special Jeff. You know, I
got the damn I've got a deal with Michael. And

(20:18):
he said I could do it this year. So I
go in and I outlined it. I showed it to
Michael and he says, okay, sure, He said, I'll tell
you what, if you can make this funny and not
too heavy for two thirds of it all support you wanted.
If you can't, I'm not going to do the episode,
it said, bit you, he said. I said, I'd let
you write it, so I.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Oh, wow, you had to. You had to prove it
on the page.

Speaker 8 (20:44):
And it was hard because when I finally got down
to it, I went, I got to make this thing
work right, And I was really serious about it, and
I talked to a couple of psychologists, a couple of
police officers about what to put in this episode before
I'd even pitched it. You know, amazing, So then everybody
was sort of pointing me toward this place called the
Child Help Hotline. Everybody I talked to you, they said,
that's kind of the clearinghouse for all kids that are

(21:07):
in trouble. It was a national hotline. Still is it's
still there. Sadly, it's still an issue. And so I
got in touch with a head of Child Help Hotline
and we talked for a long time, and he put
me in touch with victims. He put me in touch
with people that worked with their group. I talked to
so many people, and I kind of I made notes
and found what the common things were. In fact, some

(21:28):
of the poignant lines in Dangerous Secret, like when Claire
says why did he have me? That was what devastated Yeah,
it was real dialogue. The people said to me, most
of it in that part, and I wanted to make
it right. And the thing that kind of upset me
was when the show went to Disney Channel. Writer, I
don't know. I remember I was listening to an episode
of A couple when you were talking about it, And remember

(21:49):
that Michael and I called you up into the office
and he was there. The reason we called you up
was because I wanted to put a PSA at the
end of the episode, which is I don't know if
you guys have gone through that. It's a big ordeal
because you have to get network, studio approval, you have
to get you know, your group's approval, you have to
get all these different things.

Speaker 5 (22:09):
So I got it, by the way, just for everybody
listening who might not know, a PSA's a public service announcement.
It's one of those things at the end where it's
like drawing attention to whatever issue.

Speaker 8 (22:17):
You just right and shows the number for the hotline.
At the time, there was no internet, so it's just
a phone number. Now they're online, you can find it,
and so it was really important me to get this right.
And so when we got the PSA on, I got
a phone call from the network. They said you can't
put that on. I said, what are you talking about?
They said, well, Child Help Hotline is backed by a

(22:42):
corporation that is in conflict with one of our big
sponsors and they don't want it on. I said, okay,
their number, So I called and spoke to a This
was like a major This was just me going, I'm
constantly trying to get and I cut this kind of
the phone, and I shamed him and I said, so
you're gonna you know, this is one of the most
watched kid shows, family shows in the country, in the

(23:05):
world at the time, And I said, you know, this
is a wonderful opportunity for people to find a resource
to get help, and you're going to stop that. And
the guy shamed if. He said, all right, go ahead.
So I got it and we and we put it on.
But when we went to Disney Channel, for some reason,
they've cut the Child Health Hotline thing out. Probably there's oil,
maybe it was time. I don't know. I know everybody goes,

(23:26):
you know, go to the police. Even the police told
me it's great if you come to the police in
an emergency, but child Help Hotline is the real solution
because they have to get you to the right people.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, that ps A is on YouTube and it's in
writer's voice, so if anybody's interested.

Speaker 7 (23:42):
Okay, So you called me into the office to check
if I would be cool recording the voiceover.

Speaker 8 (23:48):
Wasn't it will do it, But it didn't make any
sense because it was your story, you know. But or
Ben you know, but but I thought that and you
you said absolutely were yeah, Oh.

Speaker 5 (23:59):
Wow, it's so interesting that you say that you got
a lot of your dialogue from survivors and things like that,
because one of the things we talked about when we
recapped the episode was all the little subtleties that were
done that made it so real, like her saying if
you say anything, I'm just gonna lie. Yeah, her blaming
herself making it a powerful man instead of it was
like only takes place in poor communities. It was all

(24:23):
those little things that were done that made it that
episode to where we as we're talking about it, we're like,
it all worked because of those things.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
It just made it very real.

Speaker 5 (24:32):
And of course then the actress Arianna was just so
good and really just crushed the park.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
It was just it was.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah, was she chosen? Did she audition? Was she chose?

Speaker 8 (24:43):
Like?

Speaker 4 (24:43):
How did how did you get to her?

Speaker 8 (24:46):
I was at the point where I could do that.
I had seen Jurassic Park and I said it would
be great to get that girl. It's in Jurassic Park.
And we got her and yeah, yeah she was terrific.
But you know it's for me. It was like I
knew this was going to be my last year because
I thought it was going to towards the end of
the year. I think I told you last time in
the last podcast. Michael came to in my office and

(25:07):
he said, you know, sure, I'm going to be doing
some other stuff, so I want you to run the
show next year. So I started working on them, and
then and Bluckman and Bustment I think had gone away,
and then they came back and wanted to do it.
Michael said, I have to give it to them because
they are half stuff above you, and I left because
that was that was kind of my political We were
bumping up. We're all really good friends. Now at the time,
you know, you're stuck in a room together type.

Speaker 7 (25:29):
I have to think about your own career too. You're
all jocking for the future, you know, can't you can't
just be thinking one episode out or one season out.
You have to think, you know, I got to provide
for my family and provide for my career.

Speaker 8 (25:42):
Yeah, and this serial with TV, you know, because you
do take this big leap over this gap going. I
hope that show keeps what you were saying before. You know,
you don't know, but I knew that for me developmentally
and every other way I saw that the show was
going to start turning a little more serious. I just
I really, my goals when I came men were I
really wanted to get Will in college. I wanted to

(26:03):
get Eric in college. I just thought that's such a thing.
So that was the other I know this, you guys
haven't done that episode yet, but when you get to it,
you know, it was like we had a big debate
in the writer's room because you know, Michael never finished college.
A lot of the people in that room never went
to college and never finished college. So they were going,
do you really need.

Speaker 7 (26:19):
College to have a life, And oh, that's so interesting
because we've talked about that. The college focus on boying
me's world. So so you were the pro college.

Speaker 8 (26:27):
Guy absolutely, and I just you know, it's it's fine
to you know, you don't necessarily have to go. But
for everybody kind of perceived a kind of maybe he
was dumb, but I always thought it was really smart.
The one woman show, you know, we just did that.
It was funny. You know, it was like he was
he was doing he did things when the time came.

(26:47):
He was really smart and made the right moves. And
I thought, this kid is a role model for so
many kids. And if we say he doesn't have to
go to college, think how many kids would have gone
I don't have to go to college. So I I
just took Michael aside again and I said, Michael, this
is he'd given me this last episode. I'd had four.
I was contracted do four, and he came to gave
me five, which was a I think Bluckman. The bus

(27:09):
Gang as a team got four, and they were very
upsets with me, Michael. So but that was my The
other thing was they wanted me to be in that episode.
I never did the only thing I ever did on
Boy Meets Role. I don't know if you know this.
There was one episode where Corey was giving you Topanga
a little bear that said I love you very much,

(27:33):
and then you guys have broken up, so he was
thrown all the stuff away through the teddy bear and
the trash capactor.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
I love you very.

Speaker 10 (27:42):
Jazz.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
It was your voice.

Speaker 8 (27:44):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (27:46):
Oh that's so funny.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Okay, this is going to be a maybe this is
a weird question because it's obviously child abuse is something
we should all care about. But was there a reason
that was so important to you? Did you have a
personal attachment to that considering now that we found out
you've been pitching it since season one, what was it
about that storyline that really you wanted to do so badly?

Speaker 8 (28:10):
You know, I grew up in an affluent neighborhood where
a lot of the kids were abused, you know, sexually, physically, emotionally,
and her parents were very upstanding people. And didn't know.
One of my best friends even killed himself because he'd
been abused all his childhood. I knew that it was
a and his mother's was a very famous, famous, famous actress.

(28:32):
I may I've told someone you about. I don't talk
about it publicly, very beloved, but she was horrible to him.
So to me, that was something that always haunted me.
And you know what I wanted to do even in
that episode too, I thought, you know, it's a more
adult season this season four. You guys were getting older,
so I thought, you know, Corey. It also sprung that

(28:54):
story with Corey and Tapango, which was Corey he's not
keeping up with his friend and even though he knows,
he doesn't know what to do, but he thinks he
should be these things. So what really the story for
me was Sean Ryder is an adult at the beginning
taking care of somebody, but really he's just a kid,

(29:14):
and you find that out at the end because he
doesn't have the adult solutions.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
He doesn't sources.

Speaker 8 (29:18):
He's fixing it as a kid. And Corey, who seems
like a kid emotionally because he doesn't know what to
do with the Panga, rises up and becomes the adult,
which he did in The Fugitive, which he did in
a lot of my others. And that was I was
trying to touch back to some of those things because
I kind of knew I was getting to the end
of my stay on the show, and there were a
few things I wanted to tie up and make sure

(29:40):
that they kind of were on their way. I wanted
to start a college years and I named Pembroke, you know,
all that kind of stuff. There were little things that
stayed afterwards, but the h you know, I tried to
do one every season. I did one on school vandalism,
I did one on running away from Home the Fugitive,
just issues that would have hit those kids. And the

(30:01):
funny story with the Dangerous Secret was so when I
finally finished the script, I turn it in and I'm
sitting in we were KTLA. I'm in my corner office
and Michael's all the way down the hall and Jerlyn
comes and goes, Michael wants to talk to you. Great,
you know. So I go down the hall.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
And think, talk about let's tell our listeners who Jerylyn is.
We I don't think we've ever mentioned Jerylyn on the podcast.

Speaker 8 (30:21):
Carolyn. She's wonderful. Jerlyne was Michael's intrepid assistant.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
She did it, but I don't either.

Speaker 8 (30:29):
I don't even know her name. Softly, it's her name
is Jarlyne.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
I know we can all picture, we can all hear it.

Speaker 8 (30:37):
So she comes down. She goes, sure, Mike wants you, okay.
So I go down the hall and the only two
people it's somber it's going to darken the room, and
Bob Young singing sitting in a chair. I can't read them.
And Michael's got the script on his desk and he'
and he flips it over and he goes, I'm not
changing a word. Oh my god, really, that's never I mean,

(30:59):
Michael not to fly. This is we're going back all that.
But he's on my butt and as we're going, Bob
Young grabs my shoulder. Michael, you know, runs down the hall,
Bob Young goes, grabs shoulder, goes, it's never gonna.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
How can change words? Page one, line one many shows?

Speaker 8 (31:22):
Trust me, she said, don't get your heart. I'll set
the watch. Michael goes, everybody that script this is fantastic. Okay,
paid him in.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
The back of my script, and he goes, I don't.

Speaker 4 (31:39):
Even even when it's a perfect script.

Speaker 8 (31:42):
But he ended up basically Michael had to rewrite it,
even though he really he changed so little of it
that on this one especially, it just was kind of
what it was. But he wanted to make sure that
nothing was good. And you know what, when I when
I watched the shows, I watched all five from season
four last night just to kind of refra haven't see
him in a while, and uh, you know, I hear

(32:03):
I remember bus Gang pitching stuff on my scripts. You know,
when you see a script and something maybe people don't understand,
your viewers or listeners don't know, is really when you're
in the room, the main the first writer really does
have a big impact on any script that comes in.
But then the route really kind of plays with it
and makes it think good and bad.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
You know, it was like a hive mind, right, yeah, yeah, yes, And.

Speaker 8 (32:27):
But you know, and you you do have some you know,
I got some cloud toward the end to kind of
keep things I liked. Michael would trust me with things.
But you know, it was hard. You know, it's it's
a it's a you have to kind of check your
ego at the door and just go in. And most
of the time it got so much better. I mean
everybody Buttman and Yawny and Matty Nelson was so great

(32:49):
with you know, characters and you know, uh it was
it was terrific. And Michael just you know, he just
had a magic to him. You know, he could hear
it and know it was going to work in that
episode most of the time.

Speaker 5 (33:00):
Just looking back, would you do it? Because it seemed
like danger secret came exactly when it should have age
wise in the script, so our age wives in the show.
So looking back, if you had a chance to do
it first or second season, would you still have done
that or would you have saved it for when it
when it showed up.

Speaker 8 (33:16):
I couldn't have done some of the stuff I.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Did on it, you know, Yeah, that's what I figured.

Speaker 8 (33:20):
Censors were all over that episode. I mean we went
in and the first that a little black eye and
Michael and I went into makeup and I said, it's
got it. It's gotta be shocking when she walks out
of the shadows. Yeah, the sensor was there. I mean,
they were really on top of this episode because the
sex and the violence. You know. Yeah, so, but you know,
you just have to talk to them and shame the
kind of you know, that's part of being a producer

(33:42):
is just getting going. If you're not honest with it,
nobody's going to care.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, let's talk about shallow boy Yprum, I mean, other
end of the spectrum, just showing your range. In season four,

(34:08):
we watched it recently and recapped it and we had
Lesha Haley on and we got to talk to her
and I just it's truly just to recap for any
of our listeners who don't remember. Eric starts dating a
highly optimistic musician, but her constant perkiness starts to annoy him.
After he dumps her, he finds himself the topic of
a scathing hit song on the radio. Meanwhile, Topanga does

(34:30):
not like Corey's habit of being pals with kids instead
of parenting them. What do you remember about that episode
and how do you remember coming to and then eventually
hiring Lesha Haley.

Speaker 8 (34:44):
Well, the Lamis Morris had come out and found out,
you know, you heard like, who's this guy that she's
and it was the guy from like full House.

Speaker 10 (34:53):
Apparently Dahl laughed about that.

Speaker 8 (34:57):
But I thought, what if? And I said, what if
we did that? Like Eric meets this girl that writes
these little singing songy things and they're all kind of
sweet and all this, and he pisses her off basically,
and she becomes a Lanis Morisset because she's angry. Michael said,
that's your first episode. So that's what And then I
don't remember who somebody knew the band, but Blutman and
I believe it's just Buttlan and I went to a

(35:19):
little club and we went to see Lesha's band that
it was just the two women, the Murmurs and the
other you know, the other person in the band. The
woman the other woman in the band was so drunk
that night that she fell off the stage. Like, I'm like,
but Lisha was so cool and all that, I said,
she's she was just great And I said to her,

(35:39):
look you know, have you ever acted? She is not really,
but you know I've been wanting to, and so we
brought her in. She tested, She was great, and I
had written lyrics, you know, again in the room like
Hibbert actually came up with the shallow boy title. Oh
but he goes make it shallow boy. I just remember,
you know, you remember these things wherever. So that's great.

(36:01):
So but I'd written a bunch of like really horrible lyrics.
It's like Barney would have rejected them. So I said,
I was talking to Ray cole Court and she and Alicia,
I believe, said maybe she probably told you, but I
think she said, I'll just write some music for him,
And I went, okay, we'll see what happened. And she
came in. They were great, almost too good, you know,

(36:23):
it's like and so she just sort of surprised us
and blew us away.

Speaker 7 (36:27):
And then did you guys have a separate meeting where
she came in and presented the songs or did she
just come to the table read with them.

Speaker 8 (36:32):
I don't remember that.

Speaker 5 (36:34):
She would she doesn't either, That's the thing. We're master
that and she she couldn't remember. She she thinks she
went to somebody's either office or house, and we didn't
know if it was maybe your house or Ray cole
Court's house. She said there was two or three guys there,
and then she went and yeah, recorded them separately for
then the track for the episode. But she doesn't remember

(36:54):
who was there, or she vaguely remembers you guys coming
to the concert because we told her that her partner
fell off the stage and of course she lost it.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
She's like, we used to do that a lot back.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Any number of shows.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Frankly, I was thinking maybe she'd know exactly which was.

Speaker 5 (37:12):
She was like, no, no, any number of performances.

Speaker 8 (37:16):
So I really enjoyed doing on Boy Meet's World because
it was such a male heavy cast. I brought it
like I did sister Teresa, I did, you know, uh,
different ones with with women characters and then the one
affair to forget with the termin matrix and you know,
but I always loved to bring in these people because

(37:37):
it was fun to you know, I liked when Danielle
would play against them because you would get a sense
of Danielle with women. You know, it's just another dimension, yea.
And however he responded to that stuff. So but you know,
the four season was fun for me because it was
really a playground. I came back and I just I said,
I'm gonna do what I want this year, you know,
and Bob really helped me do that, and and Michael

(37:58):
allowed me to, so it was well.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Another thing we've noticed about season four is that we
finally had some money. The budget seems to have really
gone up.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
The set the show did.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
No we you probably didn't.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Had a lot of money, but our department, set deck,
I mean, the locations, just the yogurt cup alone, it
was like, I.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
Mean, truly the budget was great. Do you remember that too?

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Do you remember there being like, oh, we've got some
room to play here.

Speaker 8 (38:33):
Always is good to be a hit show because they
start throwing money at you, and you know, I always felt,
you know, most of my episodes, I wouldn't do that.
You know, I wouldn't go to a big swing set
or a big thing. So I really I always really
like to kind of keep it core and maybe once
in a while I bring in somebody bringing the monkeys
or something. Okay, it was sweeps. I want to explain

(38:56):
that to you guys, because you always go, why did
you bring in the Monkeys. So what you do you remember.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Scott about sweep Sweet? How have we not talked about
sweep Sweet?

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (39:08):
We have because we never know exactly which Also, I
don't know did we really understand sweet week or I mean,
I don't.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
All I know is that it's a thing that we
were all stressed.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
About, you getting your ratings high, and you want to
have the highest ratings possible to get.

Speaker 5 (39:22):
Your response why advertisement money?

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Hold on? Who agreed what sweet?

Speaker 8 (39:28):
Like?

Speaker 3 (39:29):
When Sweeps week?

Speaker 7 (39:30):
Like, when did that get Was it just like a
cultural like or did the network say we're going to
pick this one weeps?

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Mister Sweeps came down with a cigar and said here
we go.

Speaker 7 (39:41):
But really, like somebody arbitrarily picked a week and told
all the shows, this is the week that we're going
to use for as the barometer for every advertiser coming
forward yep.

Speaker 8 (39:51):
And then there was another one towards the end of
the season, Yeah, we're going to get renewed. So there
were all these things going on. So what we we
would do We would sort of stunt cast on those
weeks sometimes, or we do something really like a big
episode or something to watch. So like the Monkeys everybody
left to me on that one, and and it was like,

(40:11):
I said, guys, you don't I've known Mickey forever and
you don't understand what kind of an audience they had
and every reason. But I don't know if you guys
remember that when we had the monkeys on, we had
to turn people away at the door. People there were
so many celebrities that came down because the monkeys hadn't
been together in a room and ten Yeah, in this
big and it's silly on the show kind of you

(40:32):
know and like, but it also was a crossover because
you get the parents watching.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
It was event television. It was an event.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
I literally felt like a kid again just talking just here,
just being reminded.

Speaker 7 (40:49):
Of sweet little shot of adrenaline throughout your whole body.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Oh, we got we gotta do good this week.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
We gotta put it on.

Speaker 4 (40:56):
I wonder who's going to be there. I wonder who's
going to be a part with the episode.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Going to be the Do you remember at the end
of the year, the stress of the second Sweeps week
being about here's the week they decide whether or not
we're good enough for another season.

Speaker 5 (41:08):
Are we getting a call from the from the governor
a were going to get a reprieve?

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Or is this it is exactly right, we're going Oh.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
Man, I have a question for you, Jeff, because there
seemed there seemed to be in season four a concerted
effort or at least a discussion that happened somewhere to
take the show out of the Matthews living room and
put it into the Hunter's trailer or Vader's trailer. I mean,
it seemed like they were showing more of those family

(41:36):
dynamics than the Matthews family dominat Do you remember this
actually being discussed on any level or did this just
something that happened organically.

Speaker 8 (41:43):
Well, I always felt bad for Rusty and Betsy because
they were so damn good. But you know, it became
it became as a began as a family show. So
it was. But you guys were getting older and really
becoming the stars of the show. And every year they
would come and see the new the lay out of
the set, and every year the kitchen would get small,

(42:04):
living room would get smaller, get pushed aside, right, other
things would come. You know, the stories just kind of
generated different things. You guys were going out in the
world a little bit more. You know, we wanted to
that Wilderness Store, which I never totally got, but I
think Michael got into like like, you know, wilderness stuff,
and he goes next year buying a Wilderness store. I

(42:26):
know nothing about it.

Speaker 7 (42:28):
That's so funny because Will and I were just talking
last night. We were like, you know, the whe when
the Wilderness Store was introduced, it seemed like such a
big deal, but actually not much has happened there. No, Like,
it was so cool when it started. We all had
we had these memories of it, but then we're like, actually,
I think there's been like four scenes in the entire
scenes never.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
Used this gigantic, expensive set we've used like three times.

Speaker 8 (42:47):
I never understood it myself, but it was I thought,
you know, it would give rise to to Eric and
Alan's stories because they hadn't had a lot of them,
so yeah, looking together. But we didn't really go to
that a lot, right, So but you know, it was,
uh anyway, that that's okay.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
I wanted to I have a few little housekeeping things
regarding some credits that I want to talk about.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
Can you explain the credit situation.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
For why Affair to Forget has as like a teleplay credit.

Speaker 8 (43:19):
Yeah, that I got teleplay well in the Room. That
was one of the stories that I had pitched. It
actually happened to me. I played poker with these guys
and one of the guys was getting a divorce and
we all hated his wife. We just couldn't we couldn't
get couldn't stand her. So he came one night and
he was like kind of he was drinking a little
and he said, yeah, we're breaking up, and we all

(43:39):
went like, I tell you, but boy, she was miss
you did yeah, next poker game, he comes back and
he seems happy and we go so everything goes, yeah,
we're back together, and he told her she just and
we were all like, you know, it was it was

(44:00):
and ended up not being together, but it was awkward
for well. So anyway, so I pitched that in the
Room and there was a new writer that season, iven O'Hare,
who I only vaguely remember. She wasn't there that long.
So I pitched a bunch of stuff and two of
my stories I think it was ready to be I
don't know when it was in the season, but I

(44:20):
pitched a couple and Michael said, I'm giving that story
to Eileen because she had pitched some stuff they didn't buy. Said,
all right, you know that's how it worked in the room,
you give it. So I said, fine, that's great, and
she went and wrote a draft I think, and then
disappeared and he didn't come back, and it was she
wrote it. She wrote an outline that Michael didn't like,

(44:41):
and then we helped her with it. And then she
went back and I think wrote a draft, or maybe
she just did the I don't remember, but she did.
I think she just couldn't handle it or it was
too much pressure. I don't know what happened to her.
She very nice, I just don't remember what. It was
a little bit like you guys had with like minks,
like people would just disappear and you'd never know what happened.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (45:00):
So anyway, so Michael said, sure and take it back
and you just write it was your episode anyway. So
I wrote it. So we went through the arbitration and
I didn't really fight it a whole lot because I
didn't know what her situation was, and she had written
the outline first, you know. Great. Yeah, so I got
the teleplay, so I wrote the script and it was
actually my story to start with.

Speaker 5 (45:19):
So it seems like other than Susan Jansen, women didn't
seem to last very long in the writer's room.

Speaker 8 (45:27):
Well, you know that's true with most writer rooms at
the time. You know, it was a different one. And
if you looked at most writer rooms, they were mostly
male heavy.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think still the percentage of male
comedy writers even now, there's a lot more working male
writers than there are women writers. And if you think
about being a new writer very similarly to being a
guest star, and you think about being a new writer
coming into an established writing room where everyone knows each other,

(45:58):
everyone knows Michael, everyone one knows the quirks and the politics,
and you're one of maybe the only woman. I don't
no matter what you're in, I don't. I don't know
how warm it's ever gonna feel walking into those situations.

Speaker 8 (46:14):
You know, the best person who ever walked in that
room of all, Susan was great. I mean, Susan really
had it down and she did her stuff. But Judy
Toll Judy was amazing. Yes I missed so great because
she Bludman will kill me for this, But Bluckman used
to be so annoyed by her because she would come
in with shopping bags and she'd start showing the stuff

(46:37):
that she'd bought.

Speaker 4 (46:38):
And she was doing halls. She was doing shopping halls
before they were a thing.

Speaker 8 (46:43):
I did to piss mark off she and like, I
was just so enjoying watching her do that stuff. So
at the time, it was just kind of fun to
play with people. But she just didn't care, and she
was just so funny, and so she.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Was funny as hell. Judy Toll, what is a hall?

Speaker 6 (47:01):
A hall?

Speaker 1 (47:02):
You do them online where influencers or want to be
influencers come in with their shopping halls. They've just gone,
they've gone shopping, they haven't now a bunch of things
and then they unbag them for you and they show
you the things that they got. So like you could
just pick one store. I'm going to do a Target hall,
and here's all the stuff I bought a Target and
then you try it on, like look, hocket, this little

(47:22):
sweater is all Target.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
And you just show people the things you bought.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
So she was literally doing it specifically to annoy Bluffman,
and now she's my hero.

Speaker 5 (47:33):
It would have worked on me because that sounds like, hell,
that's Will's hell.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I'm not to sit there and watch people try it.
All the clothes they bought somewhere.

Speaker 8 (47:41):
And the funny thing was season four, you know, Blubmen
and bus Gang were having little issues too, so Busgang
was cracking up too because it just really pissed Mark
off because he just wanted to get going. So it
was really fun.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Another script I want to ask you about and the
shooting experience and all that is singled Out. Yes, oh
that singled Out was written by Steve Hibbert and again
it's Eric Lands a spot on MTV's dating show singled Out.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
Meanwhile, Corey has his tonsils taken out.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
What do you remember about that episode and shooting that
and all that, well, you.

Speaker 8 (48:16):
Know, singled out, not that you know Jenny McCarthy and
that was the kind of the They were talking about
a show and I was, you know, talking to me
and stuff anyway, but they we went down there and
Jenny wouldn't be on the show. Why Chris Hardwick his name, Yeah,
Chris wanted to do it, and I actually I pitched Chris.

(48:37):
I said, you should be on television, man, you should
be like doing like a sitcom. You have that kind
of vibe to him. Yeah, but so I think that
was one of Ben's final weeks. And so Ben thought
certain episodes Ben had finals, and they were very serious
about him, and he's very serious about his school, as
you know, and so we would give him a lighter

(48:57):
episode that he could shoot just kind of on you know,
on his own time. And then we went down to
the singled out location.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
You don't remember this at all, Oh boy, I.

Speaker 8 (49:07):
Remember it was whid I kind of kind of it was.
It was pretty wild. I mean, Jenny was there. I
remember she touched my knee. I was like, very excited
about that.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
Why wouldn't she do Boy Meets World?

Speaker 8 (49:19):
I don't know. I think she.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Used it, she believe it.

Speaker 8 (49:22):
It was it was probably too young for her. She
was trying to get her own sitcom. She was trying
to branch out right. So it was like but but
Chris was all into it. Chris loved it so and
he was fun. I don't remember much more about it
than that. Honestly, I was there.

Speaker 4 (49:38):
You know, Jenny McCarthy touched your knee.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
You were definitely there, and that's where these touched my knee.

Speaker 8 (49:45):
That's about.

Speaker 7 (49:47):
There was Jenny McCarthy there when you guys were actually
filming the scenes and she was.

Speaker 8 (49:51):
Shooting their show and we went in. They had didn't
they have an audience? I don't.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yeah, we used no hear the audience.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
There was no audience. They're they're background actors like they
were cast.

Speaker 8 (50:01):
Yeah, but it was kind of there while they were shooting,
so we kind of came in for a little while
while I think is what happened?

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Wow, that sounds wresting.

Speaker 8 (50:11):
It was fun too. That was just a madhouse. But
you know, the magic of season four. I have to
say one thing is Jeff McCracken. Oh yeah, you know,
I could throw anything out. If you look at my
five episodes, it kind of filled the spectrum of the
type of Boymise World shows who did all through the
show throw anything at Jeff McCracken. And if it was

(50:31):
the broad calm, it was an affair to forget and
you know, the bromance stuff, or if it was you know,
dangerous secret with the sensitive stuff and the dramatic scenes.
That guy is such a great direct I mean wonderful.
I love his stuff. But man, that guy, I hope
he still directs. I don't even know, but you know,
he and I were the two that went over to

(50:51):
do you wish from the show, and and Susan came
to actually and we all regretted that, but uh, that's.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
But no, Jeff was definitely one of the people who
made that secret sauce for season four.

Speaker 5 (51:06):
We were so comfortable with him and he made everything
so easy that whatever material came down, we knew we
were okay.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
It's like you got him there. So it was Yeah,
it made a huge difference. You could tell, just as actors.

Speaker 5 (51:17):
And it was writer who really pointed out, especially for
me at the beginning, where it was the whole first season,
I just wasn't comfortable as an actor, and I was
starting to feel a little more second season, and then
there'd be a third or even a second or third
season episode that all of a sudden, I'd be uncomfortable again.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
And writer was like, well, look who directed it, and
it just wasn't Jeff mccracket. So you could tell. I mean,
it really makes a huge difference.

Speaker 8 (51:39):
Yeah, yeah, he really got it and just good all around,
good with your You know, you felt a writer handing
the script to Jeff mcca you felt you were in
good hands, so yeah, yeah, always, and the runthroughs were
good from the beginning, so you know everything.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Something else that's coming up for us in season four
that we haven't gotten to yet is that mister Turner
is leaving. Do you have any insight for us about
why Tony was going to be gone?

Speaker 8 (52:18):
You know what I think happened, guys, is as the
show went, it really evolved, you know, and the audience
evolved with you. If you think about it, the kids
that were watching were the same age as you at
the time when it first came. We were a little
older maybe or a little younger watching to see what
was going to happen to them. But everything evolved, and
so what happens is you start getting out of maybe
a classroom, and you start getting out of you know,

(52:39):
those kind of stories. And really, you know, I do
think there was a push because Friends was so big
and you guys were becoming like young friends that if
you look at the new song they put the next
year that was supposed that was Friends. I mean everything
about that I was gone at that point, but but
you know, they were trying to do that. So having
a teacher there made you, guys, look, you know, mister

(53:02):
was he was in the in the mix because he
was the neighbor and he could be there, and that
Tony was kind of there for you being in the classroom,
and then why would you you know?

Speaker 1 (53:12):
So well, yeah, and I mean I guess we should
have probably thought about that too, in the sense that
we've mentioned and well even mentioned in this podcast. He
asked you, it was very obvious we were getting out
of our normal sets. They were clearly world building. Boy
Meet's world was like, we need to see them meet
more world. We've seen the Matthew's house, We've seen the school.

(53:34):
Let's see other people's houses. Let's see.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
So you're right that it.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Does only make sense that as the kids, as we
were all aging up, you had more opportunities to put
us in situations where it wasn't the same old sets
where we felt like kids.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
And I don't think I thought about that until you
just said it.

Speaker 8 (53:55):
Yeah, it just it was aging up, and you know,
and you guys, you guys were also every time you
come back from hiatus, you were like ten years older,
it seemed, you know.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
So I know, so it was good to us, it.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Was just smoking For me, it was just aging me. Exponentially.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Will was actually aging every five years, it was, but.

Speaker 8 (54:19):
It was, you know, it was I felt that the
season was the best of the four that I was on,
not just because I'd written a lot of them, but
I just felt there was a vibe in that room
that just really a lot of it was Bob yond,
a lot of it was that there's just a certain
chemistry to each room, every year different and and I
just felt like, I don't care what anybody else thinks.

(54:40):
I'm just gonna write the ones I want now. So
that was those were the five that year.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Really, Now, do you a terrible question, because time is
what time is, But looking back, would you have stayed?

Speaker 8 (54:49):
I don't think I could have because there was a
dynamic there in the room that I just couldn't I
couldn't handle anymore. And I knew it it was going
to be me or it was going to be blood
in the bus game and and and again, we're all
really good friends, it was, and it was just at

(55:10):
that point, you know, there were a lot of things.
They were having issues with each other and it would
come out on me sometimes and it's just not when
it's not fun anymore. I mean, I'm surprised with me
when I went through the first season with all the
all the constantly having a guillotine over my neck, that
I was able to be as funny as I was.
But this season I felt like I had I kind

(55:32):
of had my I was.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
I was I hadn't you edgainst the wall?

Speaker 8 (55:36):
Yeah, And I was just I was fine, you know,
I didn't. I didn't worry about it. And and then
I really, you know, I was upset because I had
started working with some of the writers on you know
what we were going to do the next year, and
then and then blubbing the bus game came back and
I went, I got get out. It won't be good
if they're on top of me. Don't I have to
prove my stories to them? I don't. I didn't think

(55:57):
I could do the time. So we were even friendly
in the room, but I just felt dynamically it just
wasn't sure. We're all the sort of the same place,
so we had to It was them.

Speaker 5 (56:08):
But you said a lot of the stuff that you
pitched for that then made it into seasons five, six
and seven, right, I mean stuff that you would help
to lay the groundwork for.

Speaker 8 (56:16):
You know, I thought of Penbrook.

Speaker 4 (56:19):
You know, oh that was the name.

Speaker 8 (56:21):
Yeah, I just in the college I had. I was
actually the one. I was friendly with Bonnie and Bill,
Bill Daniels and Bonnie Bartlett because I'd gone up to
their house like Will did and and uh so I
had hung with them and we talked about getting Eric
into college, and I wanted to have a scene with
the dean, and I said, wouldn't it be great if
Bonnie played the dean and that they Yeah, so we

(56:45):
had that line where Bill comes up at the end
and he goes, you know that Dean Bolander. You know
she's been after me for you know. It was a
little fun kind of joke. But I went to her
and said, would you consider doing that? Just I don't know,
I'd have to ask Bill if he wants me on
the show. And then Bill they she came on and
did it. Michael so cool, But it just it just
seemed kind of like a fun thing to do. But

(57:06):
I kind of I felt like, you know, uh, you know,
mister Feenie's last line on that last episode. I watched
the last today, I cried, we.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Haven't seen it, don't spoiler alert, don't tell us we
will We'll we'll we'll see it soon. I want to
give you an opportunity to tell us all about one
of your newest ventures. You are joining us in the
podcast space. Why don't you talk to us about your podcast.

Speaker 8 (57:29):
It's the seventh sign of the apocalypse, because I'm I
said that that was the be the first sign. But yeah,
I you know, listening to your podcast, you know, I
really I listened to yours. I listened to Phil Rosenthal's
and David Wilds. I listened to a few, but I
love yours. And what I've really loved is you know,

(57:50):
the the Harley Hero do my Harley shirt again?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yes, the Harley Reveal.

Speaker 6 (57:55):
Yes.

Speaker 8 (57:56):
But I loved when you guys started talking really deeply
with people, you know, not just the recaps, which are
nice and it's interesting for me and I love sometimes
it's a little painful, but I loved when you guys
would get with like with Danny and Ethan and you know,
Blake and both Blake's and and I started thinking, like,

(58:17):
you know, I know a lot of people. I've been
in the business for since I got out of UCLA
Film School, so I've known a lot of people. I've
worked with a lot of people and I know them
on person, you guys, and so I thought that's interesting.
But I don't know, I don't I don't think I
really want to be on air. I was. I was
this squishy bear in the trash compactor. That's me in
an area, So I went. I was a judge at

(58:41):
the Poppy Jasper Film Festival up north, it's near Silicon
Valley last year, and I was on a panel with
this amazing woman that came from Lucasfilm in Paramount. She
was head of international marketing for George Lucas and I
had to follow her on a panel and go, oh my,
she's so brilliant.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Well let's talk about the Monkeys Star Wars. Sure, but
monkeys so hey.

Speaker 8 (59:08):
So so her name is Norma Garcia. And Norman and
I started talking and we just we both were like
kind of kindred spirits about film and we're both we
both mentored a lot, and we're philanthropic. I've been doing
a lot of philanthropic work with two of the officers
that testified before Congress that defended the Capitol on January sixth.

(59:31):
So I've been doing a lot of that stuff all
my life. I do a lot of stuff and she
does too. She's a mentor through a program and and
so she was working at a company and she did
some business in Barcelona. And there's this guy who runs
the biggest cinema room they call it the movie room.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
You know, home theater system theater systems.

Speaker 8 (59:53):
He builds them all through Europe for like billionaires and
things like that, and his name is rich Red and
they and he comes from the technical side and all
that stuff. But he said to her, I want to
do a podcast. She said, I'll do it if this
other guy, I'll do it with us. And she called
me so I didn't want to do it, and she said, look,
we all want to do it, and it'll have a
filanthropic aspect to it, a mentoring thing. It's a chance

(01:00:15):
for you to mentor on a broad scale. And I went,
that's great. So what we've done is we kind of
taken your model in a way with board, but in
talking to people, and it's more. It goes deeper than
just your as you know, you guys have all been
on now and we've had we've done twenty two of
them so far.

Speaker 9 (01:00:34):
Wow.

Speaker 8 (01:00:34):
Great, there ready, Mickey Dolans, Nancy Allen, Terry Nunn. I
worked on a movie called Up the Creek years ago.
It was a big college movie when everybody was drunk
at a college watching animal House. They put my movie
on afterwards, so became kind of a weird poke classic
that nobody really remembers because they were really drunk at
the time. I reassembled a lot of the living cast

(01:00:57):
and we did a forty year reunion and we interviewed
three of the officers that testified before Congress, the one
the January sixth committee. So but our way in is
talking through you guys know you're on. But we talked
about film and different things, but then you get into
your passions and how you give back. What we do
at the end of our podcast is we ask, and
you guys all know this, We ask if there's a person,

(01:01:19):
cause or charity that you you know, support and you'd
like to talk about. You all beautifully did it. And
then what we do is we put it up on
our website so people can go, oh, here's Wilford ELL's charity,
here's writers or Danielle's and they can find out about
it or participate or donate.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
And then Disney Plus cuts it out.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
So yeah, you to find the PSN.

Speaker 8 (01:01:42):
So we're doing a lot of stuff, you know. The
the idea is I always wanted to My dream always
to be was to be Walt Disney. That was, you know,
because I'd met him when I was a little kid.
But I never really wanted to be that corporate and big.
But this is sort of my way because these are
the projects that are uplifting. Spiraling upward is my kind
of my mantra. And so it's things that will lift

(01:02:06):
you and teach you and bring people together. So that's
that company. And then I have another company which is
called Sherman Brothers and Sons. And I started that with
my cousin Greg, who we did that documentary for Disney
called The Boys. The Sherman Brothers Story heres. It's fifteen
years now and you guys came to that to the premiere,

(01:02:27):
but I have pictures. But with Sherman Brothers and Sons,
basically what we're doing is Greg and I teamed up
with Mitchell Leeb, who used to be the head of
Disney Music. He was there for thirty years and he
retired and we got together and talked and he said,
you know, your dad and uncle wrote a thousand published songs,
they did fifteen plus movies. All that stuff's gathering dust.

(01:02:50):
Let's do something with it. So we're doing a bunch
of stuff, and of course it's really exciting. I can't
obviously talk about any of it right now.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
This is great to bring up.

Speaker 8 (01:02:59):
Then we have several talk we're in talks with Disney
about several real you'll hear about them. They're really cool,
but I'm not allowed to talk about.

Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
Okay, Well, then don't talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
We've got awesome stuff that we can't talk.

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
About, so many awesome things.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
I can't even tell you how awesome I am. Literally
I can't tell you.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Yeah, you know what I mean, but you're going to
know about it eventually.

Speaker 8 (01:03:22):
Well, I love all you guys. Great.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Jeff, we love you so much, and you have been
when we talk about what what was the ingredients that
go into the secret sauce? That A season four? Your
scripts and you are definitely one of them. And we
thank you as always for spending your time with us today,
answering our questions, phil giving us some so insightful. Really
great to have you so we we appreciate you so much.

(01:03:46):
We love you. You're welcome back. Anytime, and thank you
for joining us.

Speaker 8 (01:03:49):
Thank you. Bring have several of the writers come on
at once. That'd be funny.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Yeah right, God, imagine imagine a zoom with nine of us.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
We already talk over each other too much. I can't imagine, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
I don't want to be the only woman on that zoom.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
You just start doing a hall you just you just
come in. Have you seen this that?

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
I just look at this. It's skincare. Thanks je.

Speaker 6 (01:04:26):
By.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Always so fun to talk to him. I love his insights.
I can't believe we never really thought about the idea
that for Turner leaving.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Yeah, it makes total sense now you know it does.

Speaker 8 (01:04:38):
Well.

Speaker 7 (01:04:38):
What's funny is that I remembered, and we talked about this.
I remembered he was brought on to add a friends
like component. But then as we aged up, yeah, we
became because and it is true, like what we're doing
all these dating episodes for instance, So how is Turner
going to be involved in like our dating life without
it being creepy or weird or like cross seeing the

(01:05:00):
signals between teaching and it's like right, in a weird way,
we got too close to the.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
Twenty somethings exactly, you know, which he was. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
So when you think about it too, though, it makes
perfect sense with the natural progression of how you grow
as a person because it is all about school and
everything that happens in your school life when you're a
middle twelve, and when it starts to get older, it's
more about what happens outside of school.

Speaker 9 (01:05:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
So in that sense, they really were keeping it kind
of real, and it is true every time we essentially
are cutting to the classroom, which is rare, we're seeing Tony,
we're just not cutting to the classroom anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
And it's also like it's it's there for a very
cool component of like introducing a literary device or a
reference point, but to see a whole scene play out
like at the school, it's difficult, you know, and even
think about janitor Dad. It's like bringing in a family
dynamic to the school to sort of show how crazy
you know it's really. Yeah, it's like the center narratively,

(01:05:58):
the center of the show is changing, right. The center show.

Speaker 7 (01:06:01):
Was the living room in the classroom, and now it
has to move around a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
That's what I was gonna say.

Speaker 5 (01:06:06):
It used to be almost like what happened in the
family set up what they were going to learn in school,
and then it became what happened in school is setting
up what's going to happen in their life.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Wow, well so that's kind of interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:06:17):
How but yeah, until your I said, felt the same way, Danielle,
until he said it like that, it's like, well, of course,
I don't know why none of us one.

Speaker 4 (01:06:23):
Of us thought of that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Yeah, really really great. And also sweeps.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
How sweep.

Speaker 7 (01:06:32):
Because it's such a weird thing and it's outdated now
you would never Yeah, but man, do.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
We have podcast sweeps Week?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Is there such a thing?

Speaker 6 (01:06:41):
I don't know what's like?

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
One, let's do this, guys, let's listen if we can
just arbitrarily decide we just a show.

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
With party hats and noisemakers and the.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Week challenge all of the other podcasts do better everything
your best week? Who can get the most downloads, who
can get the biggest guests?

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Wow, it's a great idea. It should start in the
eleventh well, of course, because.

Speaker 5 (01:07:06):
We are we can use the eleventh to start Sweeps special.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Thank you again to Jeff Sherman for coming on. I'd
like to remind you all the website where you can
check out information about his podcast and all other things
Nurjmediagroup dot com. Thank you all for joining us for
this episode of Podmeets World. As always, you can follow
us on Instagram pod Meets World Show. You can send
us your emails pod Meets World Show at gmail dot com,
and we have merch.

Speaker 4 (01:07:33):
Pod Meets World Merch Hall.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Yay Podmeets Worldshow dot com writer send us out.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
We love you all, pod dismissed.

Speaker 7 (01:07:44):
Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast producer hosted by
Danielle Fischel, Wilfridell and Ryder Straw Executive producers Jensen Karp
and Amy Sugarman Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo,
producer and editor, Tarasubasch producer, Maddie.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
Moore engineer and Boy Meets World Superman. Listen out.

Speaker 7 (01:08:00):
Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow
us on Instagram at Podmets World Show, or email us
at podmetsworldshowat gmail dot com.

Speaker 8 (01:08:12):
M