August 25, 2023 • 30 mins
Get to know one of the largest species of the great apes, the gorilla! In this episode of Amazing Wildlife, Rick and Marco visit the San Diego Zoo Safari Park to speak with Breanne Murray, a senior wildlife care specialist. After discussing some popular gorilla terminology, the hosts learn about one of the world's oldest silverbacks, who lives at the Safari Park. They also get an “inside scoop” on how two young male gorillas are learning how to become silverbacks. Breanne explains the three stages of being a gorilla, and how gorillas explore their curiosity at the Safari Park.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz Wendo ZS World A Marco went Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
To Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife
from around the world and uncovered fascinating animal facts. This
podcast is a production of Iheartradios, Ruby Studios and San
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance and international nonprofit conservation organization which
oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
All Right, I'm going now.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I know you are just as excited as I am
because this focus they are going to have on gorillas
in this episode. This is a key species in San
Diego Zoo, Wildlife Alliances African Forest Hub.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh, I sure am excited and I love the idea
of learning more about these large and powerful primates. Can
you imagine, I mean, just walking through the deep forest
of Central Africa and coming across a troop or, which
is also basically the word for a group of these
majestic apes.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Oh, I know what you mean, man, and I love
that you said majestic because as big and as powerful
as they are, and gorillas are considered to be one
of the most peaceful of all the great apes, you know,
living largs and in charge in the forest, but also
known for being a gentle giant.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I mean it's pretty cool when you think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Oh, it is cool. And although the San Diego Zoo
Wildlifelians does a lot of work with our gorilla conservation
partners in the Ebo for Us sometimes pronounced Ebo for Us,
we recently did something pretty cool with our gorillas at
the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Oh man, we totally did.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And I know you're going with this, friend, but before
we jump into the main part of this episode, I
kind of want to make sure that everyone listening right
now is familiar with some of the gorilla facts and terms.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Ah, excellent idea, Marco. Let's see I mentioned a term
troop just a second ago.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, we totally did.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
And the term troop, when used to describe gorillas, usually
means a family group of gorillas, but it can also
refer to a group of unrelated or even semi related males,
also called a bachelor troop.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
And often we we use the term silver back gorilla
or black back.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Gorilla, and both terms refer to male gorillas at different
stages of maturity, with the younger black back gorillas usually
falling in the age of range of let's say around
seven to twelve years of age, and then the silver
back gorillas being males that are around twelve years of
age or older, and they are referred to as silver
backs around that age because it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Is at that age they start to develop the distinct
silver hairs around their backs and onto their hips.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Oh yeah, no, totally. Oh and what about the term forging.
I know we've mentioned brows on the podcast before, but
what about forging?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, just in case we didn't mention it before or
for any new listeners, of course, foraging is a term
that means gathering or obtaining food. And when it comes
to gorillas, well, they will wander their environment for uppards
of twelve hours a day foraging for food in their
forest home. And just in case anyone forgot or wasn't sure, brows,
a word that Marco mentioned, is a term that we
(02:55):
use an animal carre as a reference to a fresh
cutting off of a plant or a tree that is
used by the animal for something to eat.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Awesome definition. I'm so sucking like twelve hours of forging.
I mean I could just snack for twelve hours a day, body.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I mean, with the right snack. Yeah, I'm pushing fourteen outs.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Oh man, I'm feeling the gorillavibes.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But I do think though, that pretty much covers the
main terms that we'll probably hear in our conversation with
our Safari parks wildlife care specialists. It takes care of gorillas.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I agree, And this is so cool. I can't wait
to hear all that is going on with our gorillas.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
I am Brian Murray.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
I am a senior wildlife care specialist here at the
San Diego Zoo Safari Park, and I work with primates.
I have worked with gorillas for about five and a
half years right now, and it's been the best five
and a half years of my life.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Oh that's so great, Brian. And I know you had
said before the interview you have been here at the
Safari Park for like around thirteen years. But I'm curious,
with all of your time here and your time working
with gorillas, what would you say is one or maybe
a couple misconceptions or myths or even misunderstanding our guests
may have about gorillas when they first see them.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Well, when you first see a gorilla, of course, the
silver backs being adult males being almost four hundred and
fifty pounds. They can get up to six hundred pounds
depending on the subspecies. They assume they eat meat, they
assume they're always aggressive, but Western little and gorillas.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Are actually very docile.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
They're herbivores, and they are actually very wonderful to work with.
You will see a lot of people seeing the chest
beating as a very aggressive behavior. A lot of the
time it's actually a very playful behavior with the juveniles.
So those are probably the biggest myths that we get.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Okay, so that makes me curious. Do you find it
that people are surprised when you explain that gorillas are herbivores.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Absolutely, they are convinced that they are carnivorous, And so
when I do say that, of course in the wild
and in here that they do eat you know, brows,
which is leaves and vegetables and roots and basically everything
that they assume they don't. The faces that I get
from guests are pretty astonishing and it's funny to see.
(05:03):
But they love to learn about it, and it's great
to be able to talk to them.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
With the silverbacks weighing in between say four to six
hundred pounds, I can imagine how surprised some people must
look when you tell them that they eat plants, right,
talk about plant power.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
The facial expressions of some of the guests when we
explain to them that they are herbivores and do not
eat meat.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
It's entertaining, But it's also.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Why I do my job, because we get to make
them more knowledgeable on these species that we're trying to help.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I guess it makes sense that if the guests see
a gorilla yawn or something like that and see those
gorillas giant canine teeth, well, it might be fair to
assume to eat meat, but that's not the reason for
those big sharp teeth, right.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
So the reason they do have these big canines is
not only because of what they eat. So sometimes it
is bark, sometimes it is these things, but it's also
to protect. It's also social dynamic. It's also the way
they've evolved to you know, you think of a silver back.
The way they communicate and the way they have to
protect their family is not the way me and you
(06:06):
would sit down and have a conversation. They have vocalizations,
they have positive and negative vocalizations, but it's not me
and you communicating sitting.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Down at the table.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
It's them possibly getting aggressive, and that's the way some
of the animal world works. So it's wonderful to be
able to teach guests about this and talk to them
about it. And I do like those naive questions because
then it entertains a really deep conversation, and I think
(06:36):
people walk away understanding these animals more than just coming
to the zoo and walking away unknowingly.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
So I love the questions like that.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Oh yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Sharing our knowledge
and passion for wildlife. It's a huge part of what
we do and why we love what we do. I mean,
that's pretty much what Rick and I do every single day.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
That's true. It's true.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And do your point, Brion. Those conversations with the guests
allow for them to have a better understanding of the
wildlife in general that we care for. But also they
often get to know each individual gorilla and their personalities
by having those conversations with staff and volunteers. So with
that said, can we take a moment right now, if
you don't mind, and have you share with our listeners
(07:18):
a few more details about the gorillas here at the
Safari Park.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Well, the gorillas here are absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
We have three point five, which means we have three
males and five females. We have one of the oldest
living silverbacks in the entire world. His name is Winston.
He is fifty one years old. He is a gentle giant.
He's absolutely wonderful. We have our five females, Camilla Kocomo, Amani, Joanne,
(07:45):
and our baby Leslie, who is now eight years old,
but we still call her.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Our baby of course.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
And then I think what we're getting to in this
podcast is we do have our two other boys who
are teenagers right now.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
We have Monroe and Franklin.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yes, you're right, Brian.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Monroe and Franklin also known as Frank had a big
adventure near the end of twenty twenty two. They are
now living as a bachelor troop in their own habitat
away from the main troop. Now, I'd love it if
you could share with us and our listeners what's the
thought process behind that. I mean, why are frank and
Monroe now living away from the troop that they grew
(08:22):
up in.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
So there's three stages of a gorilla species, and one
being well you could say an adolysts and a juvenile,
a black back and a silver back which is an
adult male. And so when they get to this black backstage,
they start creating a lot of testosterone. They like pressuring
the family a lot. They obviously are learning from the
silar back and the family dynamic, but they do want
(08:46):
to go off on their own.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
So in the wild and in.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Facilities like ours, you will see behavior that will be
either pushing them out or they will want to be
voluntarily So in the why, what they would do is
they would either challenge the silverbacks that are in the
troop or they would leave as care especialists. We were
starting to see Franken Monroe asserting themselves towards our silverback
(09:13):
and that's a very naturalistic behavior.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
That's exactly what we want to see.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
That means that they're learning, and they're learning to be
a silverback and they're learning to mature.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
While this is so fascinating, can I ask you how
did it play out with both frank and Monroe and
the behaviors towards the troop and Winston the silverback.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
At the end of twenty twenty, we saw the most
active behaviors towards the troop and towards Winston, because Frank
is actually not Winston's blood related son. So he actually
came in two thousand and five from the San Diego
Zoo and he moved up here to pair.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
With Monroe as a bachelor troop.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
The sooner and younger you can put juvenile or black
back meals together, the better that relationship is probably going
to be, just because they are still learned, they are
still maturing, and they are going to form a bond.
So he did come up in two thousand and five,
so we did see that behavior first from Frank, and
that took months.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
With gorillas in.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
The wild and in any facility, it could only take
one interaction, so as specialists we watched that and then
with Frank, we took him out of the troop. First,
he obviously olfactory and all the century was still there.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
He was still in the same house.
Speaker 5 (10:28):
They did know he was there, but I think it
gave them a little bit of reprieve. But I think
then Monroe stepped up and he realized he was kind
of the man of the house now, and his testosterone
started eluding a little bit more, and we started seeing
the same behavioral stuff out of Monroe. One because he
had a very good relationship with Frank. But also I
(10:50):
think it was a little bit different in the behavior
that we saw because this is his blood family.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
He's actually from the San Diego Zoo Safryburg.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay, okay, this is really interesting, and I want to
ask more about what the next steps were once the
decision was made to have Franken Monroe become their own
bachelor troop. But I have to point out being a
parent myself, and hear you talk about how they tested
Winston and they're naturally compelled to push boundaries and become
their own self as a approach adulthood. I cannot help
(11:20):
but think of humans and what we go through as teenagers,
and we're testing our boundaries and seeking independence and so on.
It seems there are a lot of parallels exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Oh man, I totally agree, so many parallels.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Honestly, a man in flashing back to like hot topic
and coloring my hair.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But that's a different podcast.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
But right now I want to ask about the preparation for.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Them, you know, becoming their own bachelor troup too.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Well, sure you take this with Marko ask her?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
All right?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Thanks man, Okay, so brand I know it wasn't just
a matter of seeing that they were in the state
of life that they're in now when they're ready to
move on, and so they packed up with things and
they moved out. I think you said it was near
the end of twenty twenty we saw the shift in behavior, right,
But it wasn't until the end of twenty twenty two
that Frank and Monroe had their own bachelor pat Can
(12:05):
you walk us through this process of getting them ready
to go?
Speaker 5 (12:08):
It was a very long process, of course, starting with
the habitat.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
So the habitat's beautiful.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
It gives them all the visual barriers that they need
as blackpack boys, because even though they do have a relationship,
they do need to spend time apart. We did do
a lot of modifications to the habitat, and that does
take a while, especially with four hundred and fifty pound gorillas.
We do need to make sure it's safe for them,
they have the appropriate things to keep them healthy, and
(12:34):
that we can be able to take care of them properly.
So that actually gave us ample time to train them.
What we were going through as specialists is we didn't
want them to just close their eyes and leave their
family and show up in a new place because they're intelligent.
They are so close genetically to us, and I could
(12:54):
only imagine if I were to just close my eyes
and show up somewhere new and not understanding why I
was there, it would be very confusing to them, and
they probably regress a little bit towards the people that
they respect most at their wildlife care specialists. So our
idea was we wanted them to be able to understand
(13:15):
the journey of moving to a new space and being
calm with us working with them.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So it took about six months.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
And we did approximate straining or shaping as we would
like to call it. We wanted them to go into
the secured carrier that they are already used to and
be able to be transported awake and understanding their process
on the truck and going into their new home.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Oo, it sounds like it must have been quite a process.
And knowing what we know about approximation training shaping behaviors
through positive experiences, can you break down some of the
process for us, Because obviously it wasn't just like okay, guys,
here's your secure carrier, jump on in, We're heading to
your new place.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
So a lot of people think as we talked about
about these myths, you know, they're big, strong creatures, they're
very intelligent, but gorillas are also very curious. It takes
a long time for them to trust, so when we
give them novel things, it takes them a long time
to get used to it. So we did approximation training,
so we put them in the secured carrier, and there
(14:16):
would be weeks that we would just put them in
the secured carrier that they're already used to because there
is a scale in there that we weigh them every week.
And the secured carrier is about one thousand pounds itself,
so you can only imagine with a four hundred and
thirty pound gorilla in it. But it is secured in
a shoot basically it can unhook and this is how
(14:37):
if they have any medical issues, we actually transport them
safely to the hospital. So this carrier is able to
be very mobile and it's on wheels, so it was
very easy for us to have them in their secure
and comfortable and so the approximation was to just roll
them out with the specialists that they respond to really
(14:59):
well and respect and they trust, and then after a
couple of weeks of just doing a very small approximation.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
This was probably not even five feet wow.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
And so then after a couple weeks of that, we
actually moved them out into where we work behind the scenes,
and we introduced a lot of novel things, including different
people outside of our uniform. We introduced the truck that
they were going to move on, we introduced different noises,
different sounds.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That's so fascinating, But it makes sense now that you
say it. I mean, what's an example of something they
noticed and we're curious about that. Maybe you and the
team didn't expect.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
It's kind of funny.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
There's even this video that plays every day and they
don't recognize it upfront. But the second we rolled Frank
out onto the back house, that's the first thing he
tuned into. He dead straight looked exactly where that TV
was through the fence and he was like, I don't
know what that voice is, but I'm unsure of it.
(16:02):
So you see a little bit of regression in training,
of course, because all these novel noises and sounds. So
then after that there's a lift because again, like I said,
it's a thousand pound crate with a four hundred and
thirty pound gorilla. We cannot lift that onto a truck,
so we do have a hydraulic lift. So the third
approximation was actually getting them on a hydraulic lift and
(16:24):
lifting it up and getting them used to the motion.
What was very cool And I was talking with you
Rick about this earlier before the podcast. Once Frank got
used to the hydraulic lift and he realized that it
was kind of like a rollercoaster and he was like, Oh,
I get to go up and down, and my favorite
keepers are going with me, we actually gave him the
choice to push the button himself and he started pushing
(16:46):
himself up on the hydraulic lift to go onto the truck.
So that in itself was something that I think it
was phenomenal to watch, and we were realizing that we
were getting a lot more progress than maybe initially we thought.
And so when you see a gorilla pushing a button
on a hydraug lift put himself on a truck in
(17:07):
a carrier, it is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Did he ever push the button to make it go
back down in the back up again like he'd purposely
be elevator himself.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Yep, that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
And if he didn't want to that day. He would
take his arms back and we'd reinforce him and we'd
be like, okay.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Then we're done giving him the choice.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
But he actually ended up doing it almost every time
until we moved him.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
What was Monroe's attitude around the lift? Was he like
Frank and enjoyed pushing the button to make it go
up and down? Or was that just Frank's personality.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
That's Frank's personality.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Yeah, he's a tool guy. He likes using tools, he
likes figuring out. He's kind of like the Hulk of
the gorilla family here. Monroe is more calculated, so I
think he was very aware of his surroundings, but he
was calm. But Frank definitely initially was the one that
was more worried, but then all of a sudden he's
the one being like, all right, let's go, I gotta go.
I know we're going somewhere.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I love the description of the two different personalities the Hulk.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Are you kidding be with that? That's incredible. So often
people think.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
A gorilla is a gorilla, and orangutang is an orangutang,
or a tiger's just a tiger, right, But you and
I and Rick, we all know that that's not the case.
I mean, they all have different and individual personalities, just
like all of us. So I really appreciate you sharing
that distinction between Frank and Monroe, even in that moment,
about how one's more calculated and like sitting back and watching,
(18:34):
where the other one he's a tool guy, right, he
likes pushing all the buttons.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
See what happens.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
I mean, even in the old habitat, you'd watch Frank
and Monroe when they were removed from the troop after
and they were bonding as a bachelor troop. You'd see
Frank using a stick trying to hit the figs out
of the tree, and then Monroe would be sitting back
and he'd be watching, and while Frank then was hitting
it a second time, Monroe would be behind him, just
(18:59):
grabbing every everything that Frank was getting down. And then
he'd walk away, he'd eat, he'd come back, and then
they'd bond and MONROE'SAI.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
As he moved into the new habitat, what were or
were there any concerns on how they may react to
the new space or to each other now that they're
away from the main troop.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
So the biggest thing with gorilla is and gorilla behavior
is everyone thinks that a primate is social, and of
course they are, but black backs and even silver backs
in a bachelor troop, they do need visual breaks and
they actually do need physical breaks from each other. So
we needed to make sure that we had that space
because if we did allow them in that space without
(19:40):
that be aggression could have been seen.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
So that's what we were really worried about.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Okay, So I have to admit I'm really curious how
did it go when they took that truck ride to
the habitat Because they had been on different truck rides
before in the secure carrier through the training and everything,
of course, but with that truck ride to the new space,
can you walk us through that process? I don't know
how was their reaction to it?
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Rick, I don't think it could be any better.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
We had three specialists with them, and so I was
fortunate enough to be with Frank, and then we did
have a specialist that has a really good bond with
Monroe being with him, and the second we put him
on the truck and open that gate, they were as
calm as possible. The curiosity in their eyes, like the
balloon we drove through the gates. Everything was so calm
(20:30):
because of the time span that we were able to
spend training them that they ate from us, they trained
from us. I actually got maintenance behaviors from Frank while
we were driving behavior. So maintenance behavior is just like
if I'm asking for a body position, so you know,
obviously if we need any medical foot, hand, shoulder, and
(20:51):
I was asking for those. As he's looking at his surroundings,
a novel surrounding that he's never seen, and he's still
engaging with me. He's eating for me, and he actually
so the vocalizations that I say about gorillas. He was happy,
grumbling as we say. And once he got to the house,
if the audience knows what a telehandler is, it's a
(21:13):
very big, scary machine. We did have to put the
carrier onto that and actually moved them to the new facility,
and he was still calm as could be. And so
once we actually got him into the house, he rolled
out of that like he had been there for years.
And obviously, like different personalities, they have very different postures
(21:35):
and so he kind of just like lays back and
we kind of call him like a GQ boy. He
just kind of like had these very good poses and
he honestly rolled into that nighthouse and he was relaxed
as ever, and he actually came up to the specialist
and he started training, he started eating. We released didn't
on habitat and it was like he was home. It
couldn't have been better.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Wow, that is awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And was it the same from Monroe or did he
treat the move a little bit differently?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Yeah, so we drove back and we actually got Monroe.
He did the same exact thing for the other specialist.
He was completely calm, very curious. So we did release
him a short time later and they kind of just
bonded and they actually sat together and they for the
past what seven eight months now, we haven't seen an
aggression towards each other. It's been a very very positive
(22:25):
experience and the training has been phenomenal with them.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
That's so cool. I have to know for you as
a wildlife care specialist, seeing how well they did, what
did that feel like?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Can I say on a podcast that I want to cry?
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yes? It was a long time coming. It was a
long process. With gorilla behavior, there is a lot that
can go wrong. Again, gorillas are very resilient and they
heel very fast, but when they do vocalize in an aggressive behavior,
it can be very difficult for specialists to see, although
it is a very natural behavior. But to see this
(23:01):
and how proud I am of my team and what
they accomplished and what we could do for them.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I get it. There's going to be an ebb and
flow and we're going to have.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
A negative dip at some point, but again that's a
very naturalistic thing for gorillas. But for us to have
seven to eight months of a very very positive relationship
with these guys, I think all of us are very
proud of what we've done, but mostly we're very proud
of them for being so resilient.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Brian, I hope you don't mind me asking for you personally,
what was it like having been a part of something
like this and to be part of taking care of
these amazing animals.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
It humbles me every day. I am so grateful for
this ability. I'm so grateful for this, Mary Bark. They
give us all the tools and utility we need to
be able to take care of them the best we can.
Working with primates and their intelligence and their social dynamic.
I've worked with many animals throughout this facility, but the
intelligence of these guys really does humble me every day.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
As we start to wrap up our time with you
here in Amazing Wildlife, I really want to know what
do we see as possible future options for Frank and Monroe.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
In bachelor troops, in the wild and inhabitats. I mean,
it could last a year, it could last three months,
it could last thirty five years. The average age of
a Western Wiland gorilla is thirty to forty in the wild,
and we had a female pass away at sixty, and
we do have a fifty one year old silverback. So
depending on their relationship per the SSP or species Survival Plan,
(24:32):
they could be moved to find females, or they could
stay in a bachelor troop. We could also have other
bachelors coming in to our space because we do have
such a good habitat now that is to be determined.
In a lot of facilities, we do not see males
being paired with females at their age. Although they are
(24:53):
becoming silverbacks already and they are at the stature the wait,
they're just.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Not mentally there.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
There's still they're still kind of satelliteing. They're still trying
to understand where they're at, so in a lot of
facilities throughout the EZA, we don't see them being paired
with females until early twenties, mid twenties. So for now
we're hoping that they still bond like they are and
then we will go from there.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I love that. I mean sort of a wait and
see what the many possible futures hold for them.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Such a great story. Thank you for your time, Brian.
We really appreciate you sharing all of this with us.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Ah, yes, thank you so much, and really muchisimas Geostas
to everyone on the Primate team for all the careful
and well thought out work they did to make it
so Frank and Monroe could move into their bachelor's lifestyle
with ease.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And I have to admit I can't get that image
of Frank pushing that lift button out of my head. Seriously,
they're so curious and so intelligent, I.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Know, and you know, I gotta admit I kind of
feel like Frank and I have something in common.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I mean, who would want to make a hydraulic lift
go up and down, up and down?
Speaker 5 (25:59):
Right?
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I honestly think that might be why so many people
enjoy seeing and learning more about gorillas. They are so
relatable in so many ways. And I want to note,
as much as this episode was about our individual gorillas
and how amazing everything was in the great story of
Frank and Monroe, the gorilla's in the wild and the
conservation efforts in place to help them are super important too.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
That's a really, really good point, Rick. I mean, I
know we're wrapping up this episode a bit, but I
want to share one more thing everyone can do, no
matter where you are, and that can help save the
native habitat. A gorilla's in the wild.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Oh what's that, Marco?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Well, the odds are everyone, or I should say most
everyone listening to this podcast right now are listening to
it on either their smartphone, a tablet or something similar.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
That's true, and I think I know where you're going
with this, But what exactly does that have to do
with gorillas?
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Thank you for asking, sir, because they will inevitably common
time when that device it's outdated, right, it breaks true,
no longer works.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I'm constantly dumping them in water baths.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I mean, you know when that happens some people put
them in a drawer or even just tuck them away
and they forget about them.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Okay again, I think I know where you're going with this,
But what does that have to do with gorillas?
Speaker 5 (27:08):
Right?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I got it?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
No, we need no you know what, gorillas need Everyone
to recycle their old phones, their tablets or other technical
devices because inside of those devices everyone, there's these tiny
precious metals, and these metals aren't mine in the same
habitats that gorillas need to survive. Now, unfortunately, many of
these mining sites not only destroy the habitat while mining,
(27:31):
they leave the habitat in a way that leaves it barren. Now,
if we all recycled our old devices, it would create
less of demand for new resources from the gorilla habitat.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
It's amazing how something like our phones and tablets can
have such a huge impact on wildlife on the other
side of the world.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
It really really is, And we can make a difference sometimes,
but just making a slight change in how we do
things like recycling. Oh and it's worth noting you can't
just drop your old phone and are recycling ben You
need to drop it somewhere that hasn't been specific for
a phone, a tablet or tech recycling. We even have
a bin at the exit of the zoo and the
(28:12):
Safari Park. So all you kiddies out there, I know
your adults have a junctour or somewhere.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Why don't you remind them?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Right?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
True, I say you remind them.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Grab those phones, friends, and spend a day at the
Safari Park in the San Diego Zoo and hop out
a troop of gorillas.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And that said, if you don't live nearby and aren't
planning on visiting soon, you can also google right in
your own neighborhood. Just put your zip code and recycling
cell phone or tablets and information should come up on how.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
To do that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
So all of that said, Marco, we need to wrap
this up. But before we go, I know you're working
on our next episode. So what have you lined up
for us?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Oh man, I am vibrating in my seat. I can
hardly wait.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Friend, it is all about vultures.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Nice right, I'm super stoked.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
And as a resident bird guy, you know I have
some friends in my flock that we can talk to
and bring some great insight to these super important birds.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Guy, I love vultures, you know I have to admit
one of the first animals I fell in love with,
what's a Turkey vulture?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
It was?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
It was okay, everyone, you know what to do. Be
sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in
which Marco and I soar to new heights to learn
more about the often misunderstood but oh so amazing vultures.
Marco Litt and I'm Rick Schwartz. Thanks for listening. For
(29:27):
more information about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego
Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife
is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studios. Our supervising producer
is Nikiah Swinton and our sound designer and editor is
Sierra Spreen. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(29:49):
favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz Wendo ZS World A Marco went Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
To Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife
from around the world and uncovered fascinating animal facts. This
podcast is a production of Iheartradios, Ruby Studios and San
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance and international nonprofit conservation organization which
oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
All Right, I'm going now.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I know you are just as excited as I am
because this focus they are going to have on gorillas
in this episode. This is a key species in San
Diego Zoo, Wildlife Alliances African Forest Hub.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh, I sure am excited and I love the idea
of learning more about these large and powerful primates. Can
you imagine, I mean, just walking through the deep forest
of Central Africa and coming across a troop or, which
is also basically the word for a group of these
majestic apes.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Oh, I know what you mean, man, and I love
that you said majestic because as big and as powerful
as they are, and gorillas are considered to be one
of the most peaceful of all the great apes, you know,
living largs and in charge in the forest, but also
known for being a gentle giant.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I mean it's pretty cool when you think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Oh, it is cool. And although the San Diego Zoo
Wildlifelians does a lot of work with our gorilla conservation
partners in the Ebo for Us sometimes pronounced Ebo for Us,
we recently did something pretty cool with our gorillas at
the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Oh man, we totally did.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And I know you're going with this, friend, but before
we jump into the main part of this episode, I
kind of want to make sure that everyone listening right
now is familiar with some of the gorilla facts and terms.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Ah, excellent idea, Marco. Let's see I mentioned a term
troop just a second ago.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, we totally did.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
And the term troop, when used to describe gorillas, usually
means a family group of gorillas, but it can also
refer to a group of unrelated or even semi related males,
also called a bachelor troop.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
And often we we use the term silver back gorilla
or black back.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Gorilla, and both terms refer to male gorillas at different
stages of maturity, with the younger black back gorillas usually
falling in the age of range of let's say around
seven to twelve years of age, and then the silver
back gorillas being males that are around twelve years of
age or older, and they are referred to as silver
backs around that age because it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Is at that age they start to develop the distinct
silver hairs around their backs and onto their hips.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Oh yeah, no, totally. Oh and what about the term forging.
I know we've mentioned brows on the podcast before, but
what about forging?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, just in case we didn't mention it before or
for any new listeners, of course, foraging is a term
that means gathering or obtaining food. And when it comes
to gorillas, well, they will wander their environment for uppards
of twelve hours a day foraging for food in their
forest home. And just in case anyone forgot or wasn't sure, brows,
a word that Marco mentioned, is a term that we
(02:55):
use an animal carre as a reference to a fresh
cutting off of a plant or a tree that is
used by the animal for something to eat.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Awesome definition. I'm so sucking like twelve hours of forging.
I mean I could just snack for twelve hours a day, body.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I mean, with the right snack. Yeah, I'm pushing fourteen outs.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Oh man, I'm feeling the gorillavibes.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But I do think though, that pretty much covers the
main terms that we'll probably hear in our conversation with
our Safari parks wildlife care specialists. It takes care of gorillas.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I agree, And this is so cool. I can't wait
to hear all that is going on with our gorillas.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
I am Brian Murray.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
I am a senior wildlife care specialist here at the
San Diego Zoo Safari Park, and I work with primates.
I have worked with gorillas for about five and a
half years right now, and it's been the best five
and a half years of my life.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Oh that's so great, Brian. And I know you had
said before the interview you have been here at the
Safari Park for like around thirteen years. But I'm curious,
with all of your time here and your time working
with gorillas, what would you say is one or maybe
a couple misconceptions or myths or even misunderstanding our guests
may have about gorillas when they first see them.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Well, when you first see a gorilla, of course, the
silver backs being adult males being almost four hundred and
fifty pounds. They can get up to six hundred pounds
depending on the subspecies. They assume they eat meat, they
assume they're always aggressive, but Western little and gorillas.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Are actually very docile.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
They're herbivores, and they are actually very wonderful to work with.
You will see a lot of people seeing the chest
beating as a very aggressive behavior. A lot of the
time it's actually a very playful behavior with the juveniles.
So those are probably the biggest myths that we get.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Okay, so that makes me curious. Do you find it
that people are surprised when you explain that gorillas are herbivores.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
Absolutely, they are convinced that they are carnivorous, And so
when I do say that, of course in the wild
and in here that they do eat you know, brows,
which is leaves and vegetables and roots and basically everything
that they assume they don't. The faces that I get
from guests are pretty astonishing and it's funny to see.
(05:03):
But they love to learn about it, and it's great
to be able to talk to them.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
With the silverbacks weighing in between say four to six
hundred pounds, I can imagine how surprised some people must
look when you tell them that they eat plants, right,
talk about plant power.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
The facial expressions of some of the guests when we
explain to them that they are herbivores and do not
eat meat.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
It's entertaining, But it's also.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Why I do my job, because we get to make
them more knowledgeable on these species that we're trying to help.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I guess it makes sense that if the guests see
a gorilla yawn or something like that and see those
gorillas giant canine teeth, well, it might be fair to
assume to eat meat, but that's not the reason for
those big sharp teeth, right.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
So the reason they do have these big canines is
not only because of what they eat. So sometimes it
is bark, sometimes it is these things, but it's also
to protect. It's also social dynamic. It's also the way
they've evolved to you know, you think of a silver back.
The way they communicate and the way they have to
protect their family is not the way me and you
(06:06):
would sit down and have a conversation. They have vocalizations,
they have positive and negative vocalizations, but it's not me
and you communicating sitting.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Down at the table.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
It's them possibly getting aggressive, and that's the way some
of the animal world works. So it's wonderful to be
able to teach guests about this and talk to them
about it. And I do like those naive questions because
then it entertains a really deep conversation, and I think
(06:36):
people walk away understanding these animals more than just coming
to the zoo and walking away unknowingly.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
So I love the questions like that.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Oh yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Sharing our knowledge
and passion for wildlife. It's a huge part of what
we do and why we love what we do. I mean,
that's pretty much what Rick and I do every single day.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
That's true. It's true.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And do your point, Brion. Those conversations with the guests
allow for them to have a better understanding of the
wildlife in general that we care for. But also they
often get to know each individual gorilla and their personalities
by having those conversations with staff and volunteers. So with
that said, can we take a moment right now, if
you don't mind, and have you share with our listeners
(07:18):
a few more details about the gorillas here at the
Safari Park.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Well, the gorillas here are absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
We have three point five, which means we have three
males and five females. We have one of the oldest
living silverbacks in the entire world. His name is Winston.
He is fifty one years old. He is a gentle giant.
He's absolutely wonderful. We have our five females, Camilla Kocomo, Amani, Joanne,
(07:45):
and our baby Leslie, who is now eight years old,
but we still call her.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Our baby of course.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
And then I think what we're getting to in this
podcast is we do have our two other boys who
are teenagers right now.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
We have Monroe and Franklin.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yes, you're right, Brian.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Monroe and Franklin also known as Frank had a big
adventure near the end of twenty twenty two. They are
now living as a bachelor troop in their own habitat
away from the main troop. Now, I'd love it if
you could share with us and our listeners what's the
thought process behind that. I mean, why are frank and
Monroe now living away from the troop that they grew
(08:22):
up in.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
So there's three stages of a gorilla species, and one
being well you could say an adolysts and a juvenile,
a black back and a silver back which is an
adult male. And so when they get to this black backstage,
they start creating a lot of testosterone. They like pressuring
the family a lot. They obviously are learning from the
silar back and the family dynamic, but they do want
(08:46):
to go off on their own.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
So in the wild and in.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Facilities like ours, you will see behavior that will be
either pushing them out or they will want to be
voluntarily So in the why, what they would do is
they would either challenge the silverbacks that are in the
troop or they would leave as care especialists. We were
starting to see Franken Monroe asserting themselves towards our silverback
(09:13):
and that's a very naturalistic behavior.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
That's exactly what we want to see.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
That means that they're learning, and they're learning to be
a silverback and they're learning to mature.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
While this is so fascinating, can I ask you how
did it play out with both frank and Monroe and
the behaviors towards the troop and Winston the silverback.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
At the end of twenty twenty, we saw the most
active behaviors towards the troop and towards Winston, because Frank
is actually not Winston's blood related son. So he actually
came in two thousand and five from the San Diego
Zoo and he moved up here to pair.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
With Monroe as a bachelor troop.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
The sooner and younger you can put juvenile or black
back meals together, the better that relationship is probably going
to be, just because they are still learned, they are
still maturing, and they are going to form a bond.
So he did come up in two thousand and five,
so we did see that behavior first from Frank, and
that took months.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
With gorillas in.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
The wild and in any facility, it could only take
one interaction, so as specialists we watched that and then
with Frank, we took him out of the troop. First,
he obviously olfactory and all the century was still there.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
He was still in the same house.
Speaker 5 (10:28):
They did know he was there, but I think it
gave them a little bit of reprieve. But I think
then Monroe stepped up and he realized he was kind
of the man of the house now, and his testosterone
started eluding a little bit more, and we started seeing
the same behavioral stuff out of Monroe. One because he
had a very good relationship with Frank. But also I
(10:50):
think it was a little bit different in the behavior
that we saw because this is his blood family.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
He's actually from the San Diego Zoo Safryburg.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay, okay, this is really interesting, and I want to
ask more about what the next steps were once the
decision was made to have Franken Monroe become their own
bachelor troop. But I have to point out being a
parent myself, and hear you talk about how they tested
Winston and they're naturally compelled to push boundaries and become
their own self as a approach adulthood. I cannot help
(11:20):
but think of humans and what we go through as teenagers,
and we're testing our boundaries and seeking independence and so on.
It seems there are a lot of parallels exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Oh man, I totally agree, so many parallels.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Honestly, a man in flashing back to like hot topic
and coloring my hair.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But that's a different podcast.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
But right now I want to ask about the preparation for.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Them, you know, becoming their own bachelor troup too.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Well, sure you take this with Marko ask her?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
All right?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Thanks man, Okay, so brand I know it wasn't just
a matter of seeing that they were in the state
of life that they're in now when they're ready to
move on, and so they packed up with things and
they moved out. I think you said it was near
the end of twenty twenty we saw the shift in behavior, right,
But it wasn't until the end of twenty twenty two
that Frank and Monroe had their own bachelor pat Can
(12:05):
you walk us through this process of getting them ready
to go?
Speaker 5 (12:08):
It was a very long process, of course, starting with
the habitat.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
So the habitat's beautiful.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
It gives them all the visual barriers that they need
as blackpack boys, because even though they do have a relationship,
they do need to spend time apart. We did do
a lot of modifications to the habitat, and that does
take a while, especially with four hundred and fifty pound gorillas.
We do need to make sure it's safe for them,
they have the appropriate things to keep them healthy, and
(12:34):
that we can be able to take care of them properly.
So that actually gave us ample time to train them.
What we were going through as specialists is we didn't
want them to just close their eyes and leave their
family and show up in a new place because they're intelligent.
They are so close genetically to us, and I could
(12:54):
only imagine if I were to just close my eyes
and show up somewhere new and not understanding why I
was there, it would be very confusing to them, and
they probably regress a little bit towards the people that
they respect most at their wildlife care specialists. So our
idea was we wanted them to be able to understand
(13:15):
the journey of moving to a new space and being
calm with us working with them.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So it took about six months.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
And we did approximate straining or shaping as we would
like to call it. We wanted them to go into
the secured carrier that they are already used to and
be able to be transported awake and understanding their process
on the truck and going into their new home.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Oo, it sounds like it must have been quite a process.
And knowing what we know about approximation training shaping behaviors
through positive experiences, can you break down some of the
process for us, Because obviously it wasn't just like okay, guys,
here's your secure carrier, jump on in, We're heading to
your new place.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
So a lot of people think as we talked about
about these myths, you know, they're big, strong creatures, they're
very intelligent, but gorillas are also very curious. It takes
a long time for them to trust, so when we
give them novel things, it takes them a long time
to get used to it. So we did approximation training,
so we put them in the secured carrier, and there
(14:16):
would be weeks that we would just put them in
the secured carrier that they're already used to because there
is a scale in there that we weigh them every week.
And the secured carrier is about one thousand pounds itself,
so you can only imagine with a four hundred and
thirty pound gorilla in it. But it is secured in
a shoot basically it can unhook and this is how
(14:37):
if they have any medical issues, we actually transport them
safely to the hospital. So this carrier is able to
be very mobile and it's on wheels, so it was
very easy for us to have them in their secure
and comfortable and so the approximation was to just roll
them out with the specialists that they respond to really
(14:59):
well and respect and they trust, and then after a
couple of weeks of just doing a very small approximation.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
This was probably not even five feet wow.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
And so then after a couple weeks of that, we
actually moved them out into where we work behind the scenes,
and we introduced a lot of novel things, including different
people outside of our uniform. We introduced the truck that
they were going to move on, we introduced different noises,
different sounds.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That's so fascinating, But it makes sense now that you
say it. I mean, what's an example of something they
noticed and we're curious about that. Maybe you and the
team didn't expect.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
It's kind of funny.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
There's even this video that plays every day and they
don't recognize it upfront. But the second we rolled Frank
out onto the back house, that's the first thing he
tuned into. He dead straight looked exactly where that TV
was through the fence and he was like, I don't
know what that voice is, but I'm unsure of it.
(16:02):
So you see a little bit of regression in training,
of course, because all these novel noises and sounds. So
then after that there's a lift because again, like I said,
it's a thousand pound crate with a four hundred and
thirty pound gorilla. We cannot lift that onto a truck,
so we do have a hydraulic lift. So the third
approximation was actually getting them on a hydraulic lift and
(16:24):
lifting it up and getting them used to the motion.
What was very cool And I was talking with you
Rick about this earlier before the podcast. Once Frank got
used to the hydraulic lift and he realized that it
was kind of like a rollercoaster and he was like, Oh,
I get to go up and down, and my favorite
keepers are going with me, we actually gave him the
choice to push the button himself and he started pushing
(16:46):
himself up on the hydraulic lift to go onto the truck.
So that in itself was something that I think it
was phenomenal to watch, and we were realizing that we
were getting a lot more progress than maybe initially we thought.
And so when you see a gorilla pushing a button
on a hydraug lift put himself on a truck in
(17:07):
a carrier, it is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Did he ever push the button to make it go
back down in the back up again like he'd purposely
be elevator himself.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Yep, that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
And if he didn't want to that day. He would
take his arms back and we'd reinforce him and we'd
be like, okay.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Then we're done giving him the choice.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
But he actually ended up doing it almost every time
until we moved him.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
What was Monroe's attitude around the lift? Was he like
Frank and enjoyed pushing the button to make it go
up and down? Or was that just Frank's personality.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
That's Frank's personality.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Yeah, he's a tool guy. He likes using tools, he
likes figuring out. He's kind of like the Hulk of
the gorilla family here. Monroe is more calculated, so I
think he was very aware of his surroundings, but he
was calm. But Frank definitely initially was the one that
was more worried, but then all of a sudden he's
the one being like, all right, let's go, I gotta go.
I know we're going somewhere.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I love the description of the two different personalities the Hulk.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Are you kidding be with that? That's incredible. So often
people think.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
A gorilla is a gorilla, and orangutang is an orangutang,
or a tiger's just a tiger, right, But you and
I and Rick, we all know that that's not the case.
I mean, they all have different and individual personalities, just
like all of us. So I really appreciate you sharing
that distinction between Frank and Monroe, even in that moment,
about how one's more calculated and like sitting back and watching,
(18:34):
where the other one he's a tool guy, right, he
likes pushing all the buttons.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
See what happens.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
I mean, even in the old habitat, you'd watch Frank
and Monroe when they were removed from the troop after
and they were bonding as a bachelor troop. You'd see
Frank using a stick trying to hit the figs out
of the tree, and then Monroe would be sitting back
and he'd be watching, and while Frank then was hitting
it a second time, Monroe would be behind him, just
(18:59):
grabbing every everything that Frank was getting down. And then
he'd walk away, he'd eat, he'd come back, and then
they'd bond and MONROE'SAI.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
As he moved into the new habitat, what were or
were there any concerns on how they may react to
the new space or to each other now that they're
away from the main troop.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
So the biggest thing with gorilla is and gorilla behavior
is everyone thinks that a primate is social, and of
course they are, but black backs and even silver backs
in a bachelor troop, they do need visual breaks and
they actually do need physical breaks from each other. So
we needed to make sure that we had that space
because if we did allow them in that space without
(19:40):
that be aggression could have been seen.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
So that's what we were really worried about.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Okay, So I have to admit I'm really curious how
did it go when they took that truck ride to
the habitat Because they had been on different truck rides
before in the secure carrier through the training and everything,
of course, but with that truck ride to the new space,
can you walk us through that process? I don't know
how was their reaction to it?
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Rick, I don't think it could be any better.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
We had three specialists with them, and so I was
fortunate enough to be with Frank, and then we did
have a specialist that has a really good bond with
Monroe being with him, and the second we put him
on the truck and open that gate, they were as
calm as possible. The curiosity in their eyes, like the
balloon we drove through the gates. Everything was so calm
(20:30):
because of the time span that we were able to
spend training them that they ate from us, they trained
from us. I actually got maintenance behaviors from Frank while
we were driving behavior. So maintenance behavior is just like
if I'm asking for a body position, so you know,
obviously if we need any medical foot, hand, shoulder, and
(20:51):
I was asking for those. As he's looking at his surroundings,
a novel surrounding that he's never seen, and he's still
engaging with me. He's eating for me, and he actually
so the vocalizations that I say about gorillas. He was happy,
grumbling as we say. And once he got to the house,
if the audience knows what a telehandler is, it's a
(21:13):
very big, scary machine. We did have to put the
carrier onto that and actually moved them to the new facility,
and he was still calm as could be. And so
once we actually got him into the house, he rolled
out of that like he had been there for years.
And obviously, like different personalities, they have very different postures
(21:35):
and so he kind of just like lays back and
we kind of call him like a GQ boy. He
just kind of like had these very good poses and
he honestly rolled into that nighthouse and he was relaxed
as ever, and he actually came up to the specialist
and he started training, he started eating. We released didn't
on habitat and it was like he was home. It
couldn't have been better.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Wow, that is awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And was it the same from Monroe or did he
treat the move a little bit differently?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Yeah, so we drove back and we actually got Monroe.
He did the same exact thing for the other specialist.
He was completely calm, very curious. So we did release
him a short time later and they kind of just
bonded and they actually sat together and they for the
past what seven eight months now, we haven't seen an
aggression towards each other. It's been a very very positive
(22:25):
experience and the training has been phenomenal with them.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
That's so cool. I have to know for you as
a wildlife care specialist, seeing how well they did, what
did that feel like?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Can I say on a podcast that I want to cry?
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yes? It was a long time coming. It was a
long process. With gorilla behavior, there is a lot that
can go wrong. Again, gorillas are very resilient and they
heel very fast, but when they do vocalize in an aggressive behavior,
it can be very difficult for specialists to see, although
it is a very natural behavior. But to see this
(23:01):
and how proud I am of my team and what
they accomplished and what we could do for them.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I get it. There's going to be an ebb and
flow and we're going to have.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
A negative dip at some point, but again that's a
very naturalistic thing for gorillas. But for us to have
seven to eight months of a very very positive relationship
with these guys, I think all of us are very
proud of what we've done, but mostly we're very proud
of them for being so resilient.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Brian, I hope you don't mind me asking for you personally,
what was it like having been a part of something
like this and to be part of taking care of
these amazing animals.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
It humbles me every day. I am so grateful for
this ability. I'm so grateful for this, Mary Bark. They
give us all the tools and utility we need to
be able to take care of them the best we can.
Working with primates and their intelligence and their social dynamic.
I've worked with many animals throughout this facility, but the
intelligence of these guys really does humble me every day.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
As we start to wrap up our time with you
here in Amazing Wildlife, I really want to know what
do we see as possible future options for Frank and Monroe.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
In bachelor troops, in the wild and inhabitats. I mean,
it could last a year, it could last three months,
it could last thirty five years. The average age of
a Western Wiland gorilla is thirty to forty in the wild,
and we had a female pass away at sixty, and
we do have a fifty one year old silverback. So
depending on their relationship per the SSP or species Survival Plan,
(24:32):
they could be moved to find females, or they could
stay in a bachelor troop. We could also have other
bachelors coming in to our space because we do have
such a good habitat now that is to be determined.
In a lot of facilities, we do not see males
being paired with females at their age. Although they are
(24:53):
becoming silverbacks already and they are at the stature the wait,
they're just.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Not mentally there.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
There's still they're still kind of satelliteing. They're still trying
to understand where they're at, so in a lot of
facilities throughout the EZA, we don't see them being paired
with females until early twenties, mid twenties. So for now
we're hoping that they still bond like they are and
then we will go from there.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I love that. I mean sort of a wait and
see what the many possible futures hold for them.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Such a great story. Thank you for your time, Brian.
We really appreciate you sharing all of this with us.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Ah, yes, thank you so much, and really muchisimas Geostas
to everyone on the Primate team for all the careful
and well thought out work they did to make it
so Frank and Monroe could move into their bachelor's lifestyle
with ease.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
And I have to admit I can't get that image
of Frank pushing that lift button out of my head. Seriously,
they're so curious and so intelligent, I.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Know, and you know, I gotta admit I kind of
feel like Frank and I have something in common.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I mean, who would want to make a hydraulic lift
go up and down, up and down?
Speaker 5 (25:59):
Right?
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I honestly think that might be why so many people
enjoy seeing and learning more about gorillas. They are so
relatable in so many ways. And I want to note,
as much as this episode was about our individual gorillas
and how amazing everything was in the great story of
Frank and Monroe, the gorilla's in the wild and the
conservation efforts in place to help them are super important too.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
That's a really, really good point, Rick. I mean, I
know we're wrapping up this episode a bit, but I
want to share one more thing everyone can do, no
matter where you are, and that can help save the
native habitat. A gorilla's in the wild.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Oh what's that, Marco?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Well, the odds are everyone, or I should say most
everyone listening to this podcast right now are listening to
it on either their smartphone, a tablet or something similar.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
That's true, and I think I know where you're going
with this, But what exactly does that have to do
with gorillas?
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Thank you for asking, sir, because they will inevitably common
time when that device it's outdated, right, it breaks true,
no longer works.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I'm constantly dumping them in water baths.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I mean, you know when that happens some people put
them in a drawer or even just tuck them away
and they forget about them.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Okay again, I think I know where you're going with this,
But what does that have to do with gorillas?
Speaker 5 (27:08):
Right?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I got it?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
No, we need no you know what, gorillas need Everyone
to recycle their old phones, their tablets or other technical
devices because inside of those devices everyone, there's these tiny
precious metals, and these metals aren't mine in the same
habitats that gorillas need to survive. Now, unfortunately, many of
these mining sites not only destroy the habitat while mining,
(27:31):
they leave the habitat in a way that leaves it barren. Now,
if we all recycled our old devices, it would create
less of demand for new resources from the gorilla habitat.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
It's amazing how something like our phones and tablets can
have such a huge impact on wildlife on the other
side of the world.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
It really really is, And we can make a difference sometimes,
but just making a slight change in how we do
things like recycling. Oh and it's worth noting you can't
just drop your old phone and are recycling ben You
need to drop it somewhere that hasn't been specific for
a phone, a tablet or tech recycling. We even have
a bin at the exit of the zoo and the
(28:12):
Safari Park. So all you kiddies out there, I know
your adults have a junctour or somewhere.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Why don't you remind them?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Right?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
True, I say you remind them.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Grab those phones, friends, and spend a day at the
Safari Park in the San Diego Zoo and hop out
a troop of gorillas.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And that said, if you don't live nearby and aren't
planning on visiting soon, you can also google right in
your own neighborhood. Just put your zip code and recycling
cell phone or tablets and information should come up on how.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
To do that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
So all of that said, Marco, we need to wrap
this up. But before we go, I know you're working
on our next episode. So what have you lined up
for us?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Oh man, I am vibrating in my seat. I can
hardly wait.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Friend, it is all about vultures.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Nice right, I'm super stoked.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
And as a resident bird guy, you know I have
some friends in my flock that we can talk to
and bring some great insight to these super important birds.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Guy, I love vultures, you know I have to admit
one of the first animals I fell in love with,
what's a Turkey vulture?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
It was?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
It was okay, everyone, you know what to do. Be
sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in
which Marco and I soar to new heights to learn
more about the often misunderstood but oh so amazing vultures.
Marco Litt and I'm Rick Schwartz. Thanks for listening. For
(29:27):
more information about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego
Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife
is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studios. Our supervising producer
is Nikiah Swinton and our sound designer and editor is
Sierra Spreen. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(29:49):
favorite shows.
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