March 29, 2024 • 22 mins
Who’s in charge here? In this episode we are talking all about the female's role in leading the group, troop, herd, or family with Kristi Burtis, vice president of wildlife care at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Rick, Marco, and Kristi discuss the role of the females in lions, gorillas, elephants, meerkats, lemurs, and even killer whales! We learn how some of these females lead as matriarch or as an influencer. The hosts and Kristi unpack how it’s the behaviors and actions of a single female and not brute strength that can lead an entire family of animals.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm rich swartz butt'ss World. I'm Marco went.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of
wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts.
This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and
San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance in international nonprofit conservation organization
which oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Marco.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
In our last episode, we learned about the impacts of
wildlife trafficking and heard our friend Kim tell us all
about the many things the female king Klober endured before
ending up with the San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yeah, you know that's right.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
I know it can be kind of a hard story
to hear, but really happy she's safe now and hopefully
finds him mate soon.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And hopefully she likes that new mate, right.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
I know that was something I found interesting when Kim
was talking to us about it. Mate selection isn't just
a male and female crossing paths, and you know that's it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I mean similar to.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Humans, right, I mean, many species show us that both
mates have to be mutually interested in each.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Other exactly exactly, And she said that the female could
reject him for reasons that we don't even know. But
often a female animal of any species is looking for
the best match to make sure her offspring will do well.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
And that's a great spot to introduce today's topic.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, it is, Marco, it is indeed, because today we
are diving into female leadership in the animal.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Kingdom, but not just the obvious who's in charge of leadership?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I mean today we're also talking about the behaviors and
actions of a single female that can influence an entire
family of animals.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We're talking about lions, gorillas, elephants, miracas, lemurs, and even
killer whales today killer whales too. Yes, because we happen
to have someone with us who has had a career
full of working with all sorts of wildlife from all
over the world, even the killer whale.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
I am Christy Burdis, Vice President of Wildlife Care at
the San Diego Zoosafari Park.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Christy, you came all the way to us for this
interview instead of us going to Safari Park. But real quick,
before you get into all the cool things about female animals, what.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Exactly VP of what?
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Vice President of Wildlife Care at the Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So what does that mean? That sounds very important. I
know what you do, but I want.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You to tell to audio it's a very important role.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
I gotta say. So, we're really soaked that you're here
taking the time we talk to us.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
Chriss, Well, thank you so much. I think every role
in our organization is extremely important. But I feel very
honored to lead our wildlife care department at the Safari Park.
So we have over two hundred wildlifecare specialists that take
care of over three thousand animals that represent over three
hundred species.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So just just a little bit of responsibility on your shoulder, just.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
A little bit.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
What I love about our responsibility is that no day
is the same, every day is a little bit different.
And of course the conservation work that our organization does
so incredibly important. But also the opportunity to connect with
our guests to share the conservation work that we do,
and of course the ability to come into our park
(03:10):
to visit areas of our park that represent places all
around the world that our guests could potentially never have
the opportunity to go to and see the animals that
we have in our park. I think is just an
amazing opportunity.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
No, it really is.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And I think to go into why you're here for
us today, Not only is it all the cool stuff
we do for conservation, our audience knows amazing wildlife. Audience
knows we do great conservation work, and they know we
know a lot about animals. But having you here at
the table right now for us and for our audience
is an opportunity to learn a lot that maybe goes
(03:46):
unnoticed about animals and animal behavior. So I'm really excited
that you're here, honestly, because this is gonna be really
cool conversation.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
It's probably one of my favorite things to talk about
is behavior, and especially about female.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There you go, and that's a great segue.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, me too, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
This is great, especially for me in particular thinking about
the fluidity of gender rules and wildlife as well. It's
not the typical patriarchy that you see in other situations.
It's a lot more going on in wildlife. And you
have some pretty wicked examples that you were just kind
of hinting at earlier in a conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Can you speak a little bit about them?
Speaker 5 (04:20):
Sure, you know, I've worked in the zoological world for
over three decades now, and I just have always been
fascinated with animal behavior, and so it's really really interesting.
You know, we are talking a few minutes ago about
matriarchal societies and patriarchal societies, and I just find it
fascinating that with matriarchal societies, I think sometimes we think
(04:45):
about dominance or aggression, and I don't necessarily think that
that's the case. I think that it's more about leadership
and influence, and when we really look at it, it
really comes down to behavior. And so what is the
purpose of matriarchal behavior and looking at it from a
physiological standpoint, like why are females engaging in those behaviors
(05:09):
and what is the purpose? And the purpose is all
about survival. It's all about survival for the individual, but
more importantly, it's usually about survival for the family.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right Yeah, And actually I was just thinking, guys, for
all the little kids that are listening right now, when
you're talking about matriarchal like, what do you mean exactly
when we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
That matriarchal is about the female, the female's role in
the group or the family.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Oh awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yes, I think we're going to have a really I
know we're going to really clear up the conversation, but
I don't want to jump to gund I appreciate what
you just did, Marco. Is we want to bring our
audience into this conversation too. Yeah, we've all been working
with wildlife for a very long time. We know all
these terms, and so to set the stage for our audience,
I want to point out what I think a lot
of the general public already knows, which is lions or
great example, you know, the big king of the jungle,
(05:54):
he's got the main the souse guy right, or this
big silver back gorilla. And we look at those when
the male lions in charge of the pride, and silver
back is in charge of the troop of gorillas. But
we start to break this down a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yes, those boys do.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Protect the family, but it's the females making the decisions
for lions, for example, right when to hunt, where to hunt.
They teach the younger females how to hunt. The pride
moves because the females are deciding Okay, these other animals
we're hunting or migrating, so we're going to go as well.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So yeah, the boy does protect.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
The big male lion does protect, But it's the females
that are making the big calls underneath the surface, you know,
really making the movers and shakers. And we see similar
stuff with the gorillas as well. It's those females deciding
on where the proper food is for the troop, where
they should go, taking care of the young, and then
teaching the young as they come up, where the proper
places are to eat, When is this food right versus
not right? So we start to look at it that way.
(06:48):
Even with the groups of animals that are considered.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Male dominated or male lead.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
There's really a lot more the females are doing for
that species than sometimes we give.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Them credit for family at least for Maka as an example.
And you know, we always make the joke it's the father,
he's the one running the roofs, but we always making
these like no, really, it's ma who is in control
of all of it. But to your point, right, the rhino,
the elephant, the line and we were saying are excellent
examples of that.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
But there's much more going on the complexities.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
There's those social dynamics, right behavior wise you were talking about, right,
freend there's so much more nuance that the females of
the species are adding to the survival of that particular.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Animal, right.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
And again, I think it's really about looking at those
different behaviors and what is the purpose of those behaviors.
And you know, Ricky, you just mentioned about gorillas and
we put these behaviors in boxes and what we see
traditionally from male and female, what their roles are. And
I wanted to share a little story because I think Winston,
our silver back at the Safari Park, is such a
(07:48):
great example of you know, what we know of a
traditional silver back is very dominant. They display aggressive behaviors.
I would say he's not a typical silver back, and
you know, he has a troop of females that he leads.
And one of the wildlife care specialists said to me
one day, you know Winston is the best in all
(08:10):
of us, Yes, And I said, wow, I think Winston
has something to teach all of humanity. He is just
such a great representative for the human race. And the
reason why I say that is he leads through respect,
he leads through care and kindness. He definitely make sure
(08:30):
that the troupe the females are all behaving and when
they are a little unrest you know, he makes sure
that he balances the females out. He's very tolerant. He
lets the little ones, you know, get away with a lot.
But he just he's Yeah, he's not the typical male
behavior that you see. And so that's what I just
(08:53):
I love to watch the behavior and see, you know,
he doesn't have to display those behaviors, right, and so
I wouldn't describe him as a typical silver back aggressive behaviors.
He displays behavior that is needed for his troop.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, that's great, you guys.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
It makes me think even bonobo, right, and whatever closest cousins.
I mean, I'm always so fascinated with that topic of
that societal difference between chimpanzees and bonism. We all know,
but it's based on a female structure, relationships, tactile touching, cuddling.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Sharing food.
Speaker 6 (09:25):
Yeah, the food sharing between them is like the big
social direction.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
To your point, you know, attributing those animal behaviors to
our own human behaviors.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
But we could learn a lot from bonobo or a gorilla, you.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Know that respect, yes, and the bonobos, the females coming together, yes,
and working together are far more greater against one male
than say, chimps working against each other through using aggression.
I mean, you can do a lot more through working
together through influence and positivity than you can through violence.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
I am loving this trend of guys talk about girl
power exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
And I want to jump back to what you said
about Winston not being the typical. I love the fact
that wildlife always shows us there's always an exception to
whatever rule. Whatever you might think about any species, there's
always going to be one of them out there that's like.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, or we could do it this way. I love
that about Winston.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
You were brought up to earlier, the matriarchal stuff. And
one thing I'm really excited about to Christy is that
you're bringing to the table something we don't normally get
to talk about is killer whales.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
We'll get to them in a second, though.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I want to ease into that because we did mention
the term matriarchal. And although we talked about and referenced
the gorillas and the lions, but the dominant males, the
matriarchals that we do know a lot of people in
general public knows that elephants are matriarchal. It's the female
that leads the way, does all the stuff. You know,
it's her offspring that tend to fall in place, or
her sisters, whatever it may be. But then a lot
(10:44):
of people may not know Meerkats and lemurs are also
matriarchal with one female in charge.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
She does mate selection her boy. Her male partner only
gets his status because she has selected him.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And it's just an interesting thing that there are a
lot more species out there than are matriarchal or female led.
Then the average person might know about.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah, one hundred percent. You know, I'm gonna bring a
bird up, you guys, I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, I'm gonna do it. Right now, let's talk about
a cast to where you love life. I'll give you
the shortest version.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I mean, this female way bigger than the male, six
foot tallways over one hundred pounds. Her territory encompasses a
variety of different males in that territory. When it's breeding season,
that male is going to try to call this female over. Now,
he's got to think about consent. And we talked about
this in the first episode of The Cobra Reading the
Behavior Right Friend, Reading the behavior right, gets the green
light from the female, so they copulight.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
She drops those eggs.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
And she is done, and she moves off and she's
a career girl. She's got things to do. She moves
off another male, right, and all that structure. Yeah, he
raises the babies.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
So I just love that.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Different nuance of behavior with wildlife from a mammal to
a bird, and even our marine wildlife as well. Right,
and you're referencing the killer whale also, all these interesting
dynamics that females playing these roles.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
Absolutely, it's amazing how animals came to be the way
they are, right, Yeah, right, they know a lot more
than we do.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yes, well with that.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Then, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance has been doing
a lot of work with our partners, the National Ocean
and Atmospheric Administration or NOAH, and together we're working to
make sure there's the proper health for the killer whales
out there, using new technology to be able to gain
samples that otherwise just even five ten years ago, we
couldn't imagine doing this work. But with drones now not
(12:32):
only can capture this information, we can do real time
studies on it to make sure these animals are healthy.
With that, you have a vast knowledge of killer whales
as well. Speaking on this topic of matriarchal and dominancy
versus leadership, let's have no pun intend to dive into
killer whales.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I heard it coming and I.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Didn't mean good one. Rick Well, I'm absolutely thrilled that
the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance is partnering with this
really and work with the Southern resident pod. They are
an endangered group and this is really important work. I
have been very passionate about this work, and they are
an incredible species to learn from. They're a matriarchal society,
(13:14):
and I think one of the things that's just so
fascinating about the species is that I would ask people
when they would look at killer whales, like who do
you think is the most dominant animal? And they would
always always say, oh, that large male, you know, that
ten thousand pound male, he's in charge. And I said, no,
it's actually her right there, the little, you know, five
(13:36):
thousand pound female, and yeah, they thought, wow, there's no way.
So it's very interesting, and all the animals that we've
been talking about today, it's very different, very variable, which
again I love the diversity, right that different animals, different females.
Some of them are larger, you know hyena, the females
are larger than the males. Yeah, you just talked about
(13:56):
the cassereat. The females are very large. But another species,
like the kailer wheels, the females tend to be smaller
in size.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
So I don't know that that's incredible and be an
apex predator, you guys. By that, I mean like they're
the top of the food chain everyone in case you're wondering, right,
and to that point, right, it's female based and they're
the top predator in the ocean.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Yeah, it's all about attitude. Yes, So you know, they're
incredible species. And also what's really really interesting about them
is that they live in pods. The females that obviously
grow up with the other females. They're learning those behaviors.
So in my work with them, you would have the dominant,
the matriarch, and you would have her offspring, who is
(14:40):
maybe one thousand pounds a little calf be displaying you know,
these matriarchal behaviors because she had mom there to back
her up. So you'd see this ten thousand pounds bull
and this little tiny baby displaying dominance over this giant bowl.
It was just it was really interesting to watch that dynamic.
(15:01):
And of course he would respect the calf because he
knew Mom was right around the corner. And they know
to respect because that's the matriarchs offspring.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I can hear somebody in our audience asking me, how
does it work that a smaller female can be dominant
over a larger male or bull?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
As you said, so what is it?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Because I believe in general, you go to the safari park,
the tallest male giraffe is the one in charge, you know,
the big bowl of the water buffalo is the one that's.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Leaving the group.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You know, we always think it's the big one who
creates that dominant space because of their sheer size.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
But the dynamic is very different here.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
So can you expand on that?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
For us, It's all about behavior, right. You see different
ways that they swim, the way they use their tail,
they use their teeth to rake one another. So you
watch the behavior of them and you'll see animals move
away from one another. You just see them display certain
dominance behavior. So we would sometimes say, like not that
they can hear you, but say, like, do you realize
(15:58):
how big you are? And you know they know it's
it's a respect they know that. Okay, I'm going to
respect that small animal because they have to.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, I know it's a bit anthropomorphic or putting human
behaviors onto it, but it almost sounds like you're saying
it's about the attitude.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Yes, the attitude backs up the behavior or vice versa.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Well, but I'm imagining the classic honey badger facing off
with the lion and lion backing off.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah, huge compared to the honey badger. But it's attitude.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
So I almost feel is that a fair that's a
great comparison.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Absolutely, Even the value of that makes me think of
the culture of that pod, right, They're preserving these essential
tools for hunting. I'm a huge predator fan, so that's
where my brain is going to Behaviorally, these trades have
to be taught to the next generation. So it's valuable
for the young orca or kill a whale my apologies,
to learn from the dominant female and get those traits
(16:50):
to pass it on to the future of that pod.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well with that too, though, what Marko was just saying
about the learning from the mother. Yes, we see that
elephants too, and a lot of studies have been done
that if we lose the matriarch to proaching and the
other older females, that the herd kind of loses its history.
It loses like where's my migratory pattern? Where are the
feeding stops and the watering holes? Is that something we
would see in killer whales as well, if the dominant
(17:17):
or matriarchal female were to be lost in that pod,
if her information hadn't been transferred down to her young yet,
is it possible that.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Pod loses its opportunities to rely on the history.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Of her knowledge.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
You know, I think it's different. It depends on which
pod you're speaking of, because you have two different types
of killer whales, and also killer wells are found in
every ocean of the world, so it would be very
dependent on what group of killer wells that you were
talking about. Because the Southern resionent pod they are mainly
salmon eaters, so yes, they are looking for that salmon,
(17:47):
which is a huge issue for them, right because they're
not only looking for salmon which is not accessible to them,
but also the salmon is filled with toxins, which is
another issue that they're dealing with. But you know, a
lot of people think that we were talking earlier about
killer well and the reason why they got their name
is that their killer of other whales, but not all
(18:08):
killer whales prey on dolphins and whales. The Southern resident
pods they mainly prey on fish, but the transient whales
are whales that move along our coasts. In fact, I'm
seeing a lot of information on social media of killer
wells moving from Mexico up through California, which has been
amazing for people who live in California because we don't
(18:29):
normally see killer wells along our coast. But they are
moving because they're trying to find food sources. And the
transient wells are the ones that are preying on dolphins,
sea lions, and seals, so different areas that those killer
wells live in are looking for those animals, so they're
not relying on a matriarch to go and find they
(18:50):
are literally they're literally moving just trying to find any
food source. But Southern resident pods, yes they live in
certain areas, they don't leave those areas, but they move
around different areas and look for the salmon, So yes,
I think there could potentially be an issue if they
lost their matriarch too soon.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
That brings up another point.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
There's so many different behaviors seen in different residential areas
of these killer whales. You said they're in all oceans,
but you know, these behave this way, these behave that way,
and it's so fascinating.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
The more we learn about these species, the more we
get to talk to people like.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
You, Christian, the more it's like, oh, but wait a minute,
what about that?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
There's just like question after questions, So I really appreciate
the information you're bringing to us.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
And it's just one of those things where I'm hopeful.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
That this episode's an opportunity for people to look at
animal behavior and instead of just going down the classic
oh that's the dominant male or that's whatever, is to
question like what am I seeing? Why is this behavior happening?
And the other part of it too. It's sometimes the
one in charge isn't even the matrix. Sometimes decisions are
made by the secondary or whomever, you know, So there's
(19:54):
that layer two.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes we
can make is that we think that the most submissive
animal is oftentimes is not the most submissive animal. Oftentimes
it's the next animal in charge. It's the animal that
the most dominant animals trying to keep at bay from
taking over. So you have to have more observations and
(20:18):
more understanding of what's going on and why are animals
engaging in that behavior, which then can tie into the
human behavior.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Behavior is a function of consequence, and so the more
that you can observe and try and understand. There are
no bad people, there are no bad animals. It's all
about behavior and trying to understand why someone's doing something,
why are they engaging in that. I think we'll tell
you what you need to fix and what you need
to offer.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, one hundred percent. So much we can learn from wildlife.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
For making our brains work now I have so many
more questions.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yes, so this is really really great friend.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, thank you so much for you. Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
I loved it anytime.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
What a great conversation with Christy.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Oh, I know, I mean she's amazing and you know
so much great insight into leadership versus dominancy in the
animal kingdom, and I love how she reminded all of
us that it's the observation of behavior that really gives
us the information we need to better understand wildlife exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And although there is a lot more out there when
it comes to how different species interact with each other,
or who leads the group troop h I've heard or flock,
I think it's fair to say we learned a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Today, and not just about the matriarchical leadership, but also
how these leadership positions can be passed down from mother
to daughter instead of leadership just being taken by brute force.
It's something that is taught by the elders and learned
by the next generation.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well here we are only episode two in this season,
and already you and I are both fascinated by what
our guests are bringing to each episode.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
That is one hundred percent true, friend, and our next
episode promise is to be just as interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
What a perfect segue a lead in if you will,
to wrapping up this episode, and we want to remind
everyone to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in
which we learn more about the ongoing efforts of butterfly
conservation and how you can help protect these amazing pollinators.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Al Marco Wentz.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San
Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing
Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are
Nikia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are
Sierra Spreing and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio,
check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(22:40):
listen to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm rich swartz butt'ss World. I'm Marco went.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of
wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts.
This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and
San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance in international nonprofit conservation organization
which oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Marco.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
In our last episode, we learned about the impacts of
wildlife trafficking and heard our friend Kim tell us all
about the many things the female king Klober endured before
ending up with the San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yeah, you know that's right.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
I know it can be kind of a hard story
to hear, but really happy she's safe now and hopefully
finds him mate soon.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And hopefully she likes that new mate, right.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
I know that was something I found interesting when Kim
was talking to us about it. Mate selection isn't just
a male and female crossing paths, and you know that's it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I mean similar to.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Humans, right, I mean, many species show us that both
mates have to be mutually interested in each.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Other exactly exactly, And she said that the female could
reject him for reasons that we don't even know. But
often a female animal of any species is looking for
the best match to make sure her offspring will do well.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
And that's a great spot to introduce today's topic.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, it is, Marco, it is indeed, because today we
are diving into female leadership in the animal.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Kingdom, but not just the obvious who's in charge of leadership?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I mean today we're also talking about the behaviors and
actions of a single female that can influence an entire
family of animals.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We're talking about lions, gorillas, elephants, miracas, lemurs, and even
killer whales today killer whales too. Yes, because we happen
to have someone with us who has had a career
full of working with all sorts of wildlife from all
over the world, even the killer whale.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
I am Christy Burdis, Vice President of Wildlife Care at
the San Diego Zoosafari Park.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Christy, you came all the way to us for this
interview instead of us going to Safari Park. But real quick,
before you get into all the cool things about female animals, what.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Exactly VP of what?
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Vice President of Wildlife Care at the Safari Park.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So what does that mean? That sounds very important. I
know what you do, but I want.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You to tell to audio it's a very important role.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
I gotta say. So, we're really soaked that you're here
taking the time we talk to us.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
Chriss, Well, thank you so much. I think every role
in our organization is extremely important. But I feel very
honored to lead our wildlife care department at the Safari Park.
So we have over two hundred wildlifecare specialists that take
care of over three thousand animals that represent over three
hundred species.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So just just a little bit of responsibility on your shoulder, just.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
A little bit.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
What I love about our responsibility is that no day
is the same, every day is a little bit different.
And of course the conservation work that our organization does
so incredibly important. But also the opportunity to connect with
our guests to share the conservation work that we do,
and of course the ability to come into our park
(03:10):
to visit areas of our park that represent places all
around the world that our guests could potentially never have
the opportunity to go to and see the animals that
we have in our park. I think is just an
amazing opportunity.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
No, it really is.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And I think to go into why you're here for
us today, Not only is it all the cool stuff
we do for conservation, our audience knows amazing wildlife. Audience
knows we do great conservation work, and they know we
know a lot about animals. But having you here at
the table right now for us and for our audience
is an opportunity to learn a lot that maybe goes
(03:46):
unnoticed about animals and animal behavior. So I'm really excited
that you're here, honestly, because this is gonna be really
cool conversation.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
It's probably one of my favorite things to talk about
is behavior, and especially about female.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There you go, and that's a great segue.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, me too, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
This is great, especially for me in particular thinking about
the fluidity of gender rules and wildlife as well. It's
not the typical patriarchy that you see in other situations.
It's a lot more going on in wildlife. And you
have some pretty wicked examples that you were just kind
of hinting at earlier in a conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Can you speak a little bit about them?
Speaker 5 (04:20):
Sure, you know, I've worked in the zoological world for
over three decades now, and I just have always been
fascinated with animal behavior, and so it's really really interesting.
You know, we are talking a few minutes ago about
matriarchal societies and patriarchal societies, and I just find it
fascinating that with matriarchal societies, I think sometimes we think
(04:45):
about dominance or aggression, and I don't necessarily think that
that's the case. I think that it's more about leadership
and influence, and when we really look at it, it
really comes down to behavior. And so what is the
purpose of matriarchal behavior and looking at it from a
physiological standpoint, like why are females engaging in those behaviors
(05:09):
and what is the purpose? And the purpose is all
about survival. It's all about survival for the individual, but
more importantly, it's usually about survival for the family.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right Yeah, And actually I was just thinking, guys, for
all the little kids that are listening right now, when
you're talking about matriarchal like, what do you mean exactly
when we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
That matriarchal is about the female, the female's role in
the group or the family.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Oh awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yes, I think we're going to have a really I
know we're going to really clear up the conversation, but
I don't want to jump to gund I appreciate what
you just did, Marco. Is we want to bring our
audience into this conversation too. Yeah, we've all been working
with wildlife for a very long time. We know all
these terms, and so to set the stage for our audience,
I want to point out what I think a lot
of the general public already knows, which is lions or
great example, you know, the big king of the jungle,
(05:54):
he's got the main the souse guy right, or this
big silver back gorilla. And we look at those when
the male lions in charge of the pride, and silver
back is in charge of the troop of gorillas. But
we start to break this down a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yes, those boys do.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Protect the family, but it's the females making the decisions
for lions, for example, right when to hunt, where to hunt.
They teach the younger females how to hunt. The pride
moves because the females are deciding Okay, these other animals
we're hunting or migrating, so we're going to go as well.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So yeah, the boy does protect.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
The big male lion does protect, But it's the females
that are making the big calls underneath the surface, you know,
really making the movers and shakers. And we see similar
stuff with the gorillas as well. It's those females deciding
on where the proper food is for the troop, where
they should go, taking care of the young, and then
teaching the young as they come up, where the proper
places are to eat, When is this food right versus
not right? So we start to look at it that way.
(06:48):
Even with the groups of animals that are considered.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Male dominated or male lead.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
There's really a lot more the females are doing for
that species than sometimes we give.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Them credit for family at least for Maka as an example.
And you know, we always make the joke it's the father,
he's the one running the roofs, but we always making
these like no, really, it's ma who is in control
of all of it. But to your point, right, the rhino,
the elephant, the line and we were saying are excellent
examples of that.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
But there's much more going on the complexities.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
There's those social dynamics, right behavior wise you were talking about, right,
freend there's so much more nuance that the females of
the species are adding to the survival of that particular.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Animal, right.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
And again, I think it's really about looking at those
different behaviors and what is the purpose of those behaviors.
And you know, Ricky, you just mentioned about gorillas and
we put these behaviors in boxes and what we see
traditionally from male and female, what their roles are. And
I wanted to share a little story because I think Winston,
our silver back at the Safari Park, is such a
(07:48):
great example of you know, what we know of a
traditional silver back is very dominant. They display aggressive behaviors.
I would say he's not a typical silver back, and
you know, he has a troop of females that he leads.
And one of the wildlife care specialists said to me
one day, you know Winston is the best in all
(08:10):
of us, Yes, And I said, wow, I think Winston
has something to teach all of humanity. He is just
such a great representative for the human race. And the
reason why I say that is he leads through respect,
he leads through care and kindness. He definitely make sure
(08:30):
that the troupe the females are all behaving and when
they are a little unrest you know, he makes sure
that he balances the females out. He's very tolerant. He
lets the little ones, you know, get away with a lot.
But he just he's Yeah, he's not the typical male
behavior that you see. And so that's what I just
(08:53):
I love to watch the behavior and see, you know,
he doesn't have to display those behaviors, right, and so
I wouldn't describe him as a typical silver back aggressive behaviors.
He displays behavior that is needed for his troop.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, that's great, you guys.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
It makes me think even bonobo, right, and whatever closest cousins.
I mean, I'm always so fascinated with that topic of
that societal difference between chimpanzees and bonism. We all know,
but it's based on a female structure, relationships, tactile touching, cuddling.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Sharing food.
Speaker 6 (09:25):
Yeah, the food sharing between them is like the big
social direction.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
To your point, you know, attributing those animal behaviors to
our own human behaviors.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
But we could learn a lot from bonobo or a gorilla, you.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Know that respect, yes, and the bonobos, the females coming together, yes,
and working together are far more greater against one male
than say, chimps working against each other through using aggression.
I mean, you can do a lot more through working
together through influence and positivity than you can through violence.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
I am loving this trend of guys talk about girl
power exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
And I want to jump back to what you said
about Winston not being the typical. I love the fact
that wildlife always shows us there's always an exception to
whatever rule. Whatever you might think about any species, there's
always going to be one of them out there that's like.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, or we could do it this way. I love
that about Winston.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
You were brought up to earlier, the matriarchal stuff. And
one thing I'm really excited about to Christy is that
you're bringing to the table something we don't normally get
to talk about is killer whales.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
We'll get to them in a second, though.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I want to ease into that because we did mention
the term matriarchal. And although we talked about and referenced
the gorillas and the lions, but the dominant males, the
matriarchals that we do know a lot of people in
general public knows that elephants are matriarchal. It's the female
that leads the way, does all the stuff. You know,
it's her offspring that tend to fall in place, or
her sisters, whatever it may be. But then a lot
(10:44):
of people may not know Meerkats and lemurs are also
matriarchal with one female in charge.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
She does mate selection her boy. Her male partner only
gets his status because she has selected him.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And it's just an interesting thing that there are a
lot more species out there than are matriarchal or female led.
Then the average person might know about.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah, one hundred percent. You know, I'm gonna bring a
bird up, you guys, I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, I'm gonna do it. Right now, let's talk about
a cast to where you love life. I'll give you
the shortest version.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I mean, this female way bigger than the male, six
foot tallways over one hundred pounds. Her territory encompasses a
variety of different males in that territory. When it's breeding season,
that male is going to try to call this female over. Now,
he's got to think about consent. And we talked about
this in the first episode of The Cobra Reading the
Behavior Right Friend, Reading the behavior right, gets the green
light from the female, so they copulight.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
She drops those eggs.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
And she is done, and she moves off and she's
a career girl. She's got things to do. She moves
off another male, right, and all that structure. Yeah, he
raises the babies.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
So I just love that.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Different nuance of behavior with wildlife from a mammal to
a bird, and even our marine wildlife as well. Right,
and you're referencing the killer whale also, all these interesting
dynamics that females playing these roles.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
Absolutely, it's amazing how animals came to be the way
they are, right, Yeah, right, they know a lot more
than we do.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yes, well with that.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Then, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance has been doing
a lot of work with our partners, the National Ocean
and Atmospheric Administration or NOAH, and together we're working to
make sure there's the proper health for the killer whales
out there, using new technology to be able to gain
samples that otherwise just even five ten years ago, we
couldn't imagine doing this work. But with drones now not
(12:32):
only can capture this information, we can do real time
studies on it to make sure these animals are healthy.
With that, you have a vast knowledge of killer whales
as well. Speaking on this topic of matriarchal and dominancy
versus leadership, let's have no pun intend to dive into
killer whales.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I heard it coming and I.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Didn't mean good one. Rick Well, I'm absolutely thrilled that
the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance is partnering with this
really and work with the Southern resident pod. They are
an endangered group and this is really important work. I
have been very passionate about this work, and they are
an incredible species to learn from. They're a matriarchal society,
(13:14):
and I think one of the things that's just so
fascinating about the species is that I would ask people
when they would look at killer whales, like who do
you think is the most dominant animal? And they would
always always say, oh, that large male, you know, that
ten thousand pound male, he's in charge. And I said, no,
it's actually her right there, the little, you know, five
(13:36):
thousand pound female, and yeah, they thought, wow, there's no way.
So it's very interesting, and all the animals that we've
been talking about today, it's very different, very variable, which
again I love the diversity, right that different animals, different females.
Some of them are larger, you know hyena, the females
are larger than the males. Yeah, you just talked about
(13:56):
the cassereat. The females are very large. But another species,
like the kailer wheels, the females tend to be smaller
in size.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
So I don't know that that's incredible and be an
apex predator, you guys. By that, I mean like they're
the top of the food chain everyone in case you're wondering, right,
and to that point, right, it's female based and they're
the top predator in the ocean.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Yeah, it's all about attitude. Yes, So you know, they're
incredible species. And also what's really really interesting about them
is that they live in pods. The females that obviously
grow up with the other females. They're learning those behaviors.
So in my work with them, you would have the dominant,
the matriarch, and you would have her offspring, who is
(14:40):
maybe one thousand pounds a little calf be displaying you know,
these matriarchal behaviors because she had mom there to back
her up. So you'd see this ten thousand pounds bull
and this little tiny baby displaying dominance over this giant bowl.
It was just it was really interesting to watch that dynamic.
(15:01):
And of course he would respect the calf because he
knew Mom was right around the corner. And they know
to respect because that's the matriarchs offspring.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I can hear somebody in our audience asking me, how
does it work that a smaller female can be dominant
over a larger male or bull?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
As you said, so what is it?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Because I believe in general, you go to the safari park,
the tallest male giraffe is the one in charge, you know,
the big bowl of the water buffalo is the one that's.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Leaving the group.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You know, we always think it's the big one who
creates that dominant space because of their sheer size.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
But the dynamic is very different here.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
So can you expand on that?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
For us, It's all about behavior, right. You see different
ways that they swim, the way they use their tail,
they use their teeth to rake one another. So you
watch the behavior of them and you'll see animals move
away from one another. You just see them display certain
dominance behavior. So we would sometimes say, like not that
they can hear you, but say, like, do you realize
(15:58):
how big you are? And you know they know it's
it's a respect they know that. Okay, I'm going to
respect that small animal because they have to.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, I know it's a bit anthropomorphic or putting human
behaviors onto it, but it almost sounds like you're saying
it's about the attitude.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Yes, the attitude backs up the behavior or vice versa.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Well, but I'm imagining the classic honey badger facing off
with the lion and lion backing off.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah, huge compared to the honey badger. But it's attitude.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
So I almost feel is that a fair that's a
great comparison.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Absolutely, Even the value of that makes me think of
the culture of that pod, right, They're preserving these essential
tools for hunting. I'm a huge predator fan, so that's
where my brain is going to Behaviorally, these trades have
to be taught to the next generation. So it's valuable
for the young orca or kill a whale my apologies,
to learn from the dominant female and get those traits
(16:50):
to pass it on to the future of that pod.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well with that too, though, what Marko was just saying
about the learning from the mother. Yes, we see that
elephants too, and a lot of studies have been done
that if we lose the matriarch to proaching and the
other older females, that the herd kind of loses its history.
It loses like where's my migratory pattern? Where are the
feeding stops and the watering holes? Is that something we
would see in killer whales as well, if the dominant
(17:17):
or matriarchal female were to be lost in that pod,
if her information hadn't been transferred down to her young yet,
is it possible that.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Pod loses its opportunities to rely on the history.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Of her knowledge.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
You know, I think it's different. It depends on which
pod you're speaking of, because you have two different types
of killer whales, and also killer wells are found in
every ocean of the world, so it would be very
dependent on what group of killer wells that you were
talking about. Because the Southern resionent pod they are mainly
salmon eaters, so yes, they are looking for that salmon,
(17:47):
which is a huge issue for them, right because they're
not only looking for salmon which is not accessible to them,
but also the salmon is filled with toxins, which is
another issue that they're dealing with. But you know, a
lot of people think that we were talking earlier about
killer well and the reason why they got their name
is that their killer of other whales, but not all
(18:08):
killer whales prey on dolphins and whales. The Southern resident
pods they mainly prey on fish, but the transient whales
are whales that move along our coasts. In fact, I'm
seeing a lot of information on social media of killer
wells moving from Mexico up through California, which has been
amazing for people who live in California because we don't
(18:29):
normally see killer wells along our coast. But they are
moving because they're trying to find food sources. And the
transient wells are the ones that are preying on dolphins,
sea lions, and seals, so different areas that those killer
wells live in are looking for those animals, so they're
not relying on a matriarch to go and find they
(18:50):
are literally they're literally moving just trying to find any
food source. But Southern resident pods, yes they live in
certain areas, they don't leave those areas, but they move
around different areas and look for the salmon, So yes,
I think there could potentially be an issue if they
lost their matriarch too soon.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
That brings up another point.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
There's so many different behaviors seen in different residential areas
of these killer whales. You said they're in all oceans,
but you know, these behave this way, these behave that way,
and it's so fascinating.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
The more we learn about these species, the more we
get to talk to people like.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
You, Christian, the more it's like, oh, but wait a minute,
what about that?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
There's just like question after questions, So I really appreciate
the information you're bringing to us.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
And it's just one of those things where I'm hopeful.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
That this episode's an opportunity for people to look at
animal behavior and instead of just going down the classic
oh that's the dominant male or that's whatever, is to
question like what am I seeing? Why is this behavior happening?
And the other part of it too. It's sometimes the
one in charge isn't even the matrix. Sometimes decisions are
made by the secondary or whomever, you know, So there's
(19:54):
that layer two.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes we
can make is that we think that the most submissive
animal is oftentimes is not the most submissive animal. Oftentimes
it's the next animal in charge. It's the animal that
the most dominant animals trying to keep at bay from
taking over. So you have to have more observations and
(20:18):
more understanding of what's going on and why are animals
engaging in that behavior, which then can tie into the
human behavior.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Behavior is a function of consequence, and so the more
that you can observe and try and understand. There are
no bad people, there are no bad animals. It's all
about behavior and trying to understand why someone's doing something,
why are they engaging in that. I think we'll tell
you what you need to fix and what you need
to offer.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, one hundred percent. So much we can learn from wildlife.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
For making our brains work now I have so many
more questions.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yes, so this is really really great friend.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, thank you so much for you. Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
I loved it anytime.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
What a great conversation with Christy.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Oh, I know, I mean she's amazing and you know
so much great insight into leadership versus dominancy in the
animal kingdom, and I love how she reminded all of
us that it's the observation of behavior that really gives
us the information we need to better understand wildlife exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And although there is a lot more out there when
it comes to how different species interact with each other,
or who leads the group troop h I've heard or flock,
I think it's fair to say we learned a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Today, and not just about the matriarchical leadership, but also
how these leadership positions can be passed down from mother
to daughter instead of leadership just being taken by brute force.
It's something that is taught by the elders and learned
by the next generation.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well here we are only episode two in this season,
and already you and I are both fascinated by what
our guests are bringing to each episode.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
That is one hundred percent true, friend, and our next
episode promise is to be just as interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
What a perfect segue a lead in if you will,
to wrapping up this episode, and we want to remind
everyone to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in
which we learn more about the ongoing efforts of butterfly
conservation and how you can help protect these amazing pollinators.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Al Marco Wentz.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San
Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing
Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are
Nikia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are
Sierra Spreing and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio,
check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(22:40):
listen to your favorite shows.
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