May 3, 2024 • 40 mins
Lamborghini CEO Stephan Winkelmann joins Hannah Elliott and Matt Miller to discuss the future of the Italian automaker, especially when (and if) it comes to EVs. Plus, his keys to success navigating working with some of the industry's toughest bosses at Volkswagen and Fiat. Then, Hannah talks about the Aston Martin Vantage in Spain and Matt gets stranded - twice! - taking his motorbikes out for the first ride this season.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. I'm Matt Miller and
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Hot Pursuit.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
All right, we have a very special guest this week,
Stephen Winkleman, who is the CEO right now of Lamborghini.
But he's worn so many hats in the automotive industry.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
He has to be one of the most interesting automotive
chiefs around. You know, he was at Bugatti, he had
the dual role of head of Bugatti and Lamborghini at
the same time, which seems like insane, an insane job,
but very fascinating guy.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And at Audi Renschport and before that he was at Fiat.
So yeah, I agree, he's up there with like Sergio
Marcioni for me, yes, as one of the most interesting
characters with some of the most experience of any of
the execs that we talked to. So looking forward to
that interview. I also want to hear a little bit
more about your trip, because last time I talked to you,
(01:05):
you said you were headed to Spain. I know you
went to Sevilla or Seville as we call it here,
and you know it's one of my favorite places. So
how was it It.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Was really fun, I have to say. Unfortunately the days
that I was there Friday and Saturday, were the days
that it rained.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's always at.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I know, out of a whole month of beautiful skies,
but it was wonderful. I went with Aston Martin to
drive the new Vantage, which is the next generation, completely
new performance numbers, some updated looks. Drove it on the
Monteblanco circuit in Seville or outside of Seville, and then
(01:46):
drove it for a couple hours in the rural areas
around town, which was gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Very cool. I would drive straight over to Cordoba, Oh
I love I mean, and check out the temple or
whatever it is and all the cool houses there to.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Say, Seville is so beautiful. Of course the old cathedral there.
And I did not know this, but that was where
Christopher Columbus sailed out of Oh yeah, on his way
to the quote.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Unquote Crystal Ball Cologne. Yeah. I love it, and I
did love the Asston when I saw the pictures at
first when it came out, I thought, wow, it's it's beautiful.
Now you posted some on Instagram that I thought it
looked a little bit too much like the Nissan Z
for me think.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
At least coloring. Yeah, that that has to be a
color thing. And I have to say I can't really
talk about driving impressions yet because I'm under an embargo,
but I can talk about how it looks. And I
think your take is because the one that I drove
was like a Nissan orange with black wheels, and I
don't recommend it an orange, but I think there are
(02:50):
some gorgeous silvers and sort of gold colors and gray
colors that make it look really pretty. This car, this
vantage is actually a little bit wider than the previous
generation and has got some you.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Know, yips, got some hips on it, got some.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Hips on it, and got some air vents and sort
of new arrow and the grills slightly even bigger. Yeah,
it doesn't bother me. I thought it looked great. I
would not get an orange, I think, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I agree. I think with Lamborghini, I would never do that.
I would get orange or like acid green. But with
the with the ones that you had at least on
your Instagram at Hannah Elliott X Oh, I like the silver.
I'd go with the more s dude color.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And let's be honest, that instantly makes you think of
a dB five or dB six. It takes you back
to the Bond days. You cannot go wrong. Actually, Aston
Martin says their most popular color is there green. They're
racing green, which is the same color as their Formula
One team, and they said when they debuted this, this
(03:54):
particular green with their racing team, that is the moment
when in the production cars this green became the most
popular color. It's interesting though it's not a true British
racing green has a little bit of blue in it.
It's very specific to Asston Martin. But yeah, they did
tell me that that is their most popular color for
their production cars. But yeah, I would get personally, I
(04:14):
like a silver Do you have silver?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Do you have a favorite Bond car or a Bond vehicle?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
No, I don't. I would tell you the Lotus just
to be contrarian a suir, of course, just to be just.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I mean when I first saw that, I think I
saw that movie in the theater. That thing goes amphibious
and it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, it's very cool.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
I know.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I don't. I can't say that I'm a massive Bond fan.
I mean, of course it's iconic and I do like
Daniel Craig as as Bond. He's probably to answer your
unasked question, He's probably my favorite Bond. But I also
didn't have a problem with Pierce Brosnan either.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I agree with you on Daniel Craig, you know, I
mean everyone, the automatic answer is Sean Connery, and because
he's got for me in it for so long, I
loved or More as well. Sure, but I think Daniel
Craig is the best Bond. I was only asking because
I recently saw in bat that Moke has a Bond edition,
because in the first few movies, I guess there was
(05:12):
a Moke somewhere in the film, and so there's a
Bond Moke, which is pretty awesome. I also like the
Triumph Scrambler that he wrote in the last one. I
love a scrambler, but I didn't like the last movie
so much. I digress, I digress.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yes, anyway, Saville was great, amazing food, of course, as
you might expect, and yeah, just any I didn't see
any flamenco unfortunately, you know. To be quite honest, I
was there for about thirty six to forty eight hours,
and most of that time was on a rape on
the racetrack, so I didn't I need to go back
(05:49):
and have some actual cultural moments there.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
The car it's such a it's such a hot place
for car and motorcycle debuts because the weather's so nice.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
There are many in Spain this year, Bentley, Porsche, Aston Martin.
There are going to be.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Quite It's also did you know, I'm sure you do
that almost all Lamborghinis are named after famous Spanish bulls. Yes,
which is weird because Lamborghini's obviously very Italian, right, but
they name all of their cars after Spanish bulls.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I like that, you know what. Let's change the subject
and we'll go to the CEO of the Spanish bull
car maker. Let's get more from our interview now with
Stefan Winckelmann. Let's get you first to give us a
little bit of your CV or your timeline, because you've
had important positions at some of the most impressive car
(06:42):
makers in the world. So how did you get started
and how did you do this round trip from Lambo
to Lambo.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I was more into motorbikes actually when I grow up,
because I grew up in Rome, and in Rome, due
to the weather, there was no law for helmet. So
for me was the first love was driving motorbikes. And
then when I studied, I studied political sciences. I wanted
to be a professional soldier and I did the two
years in the army and then I decided not to
(07:11):
do it, and so I had to reinvent myself and
by chance I started with a trainee in the commercial
department of Mercedes Benz and then they were looking for bilingual,
perfect bilingual German and Italians in Fiatauto at that time.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So you were born in Berlin and then your parents
moved to Romani exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I was born in Berlin.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
My parents moved to Italy to Rome when I was
a baby, and when I joined Fiat, I was there
for eleven years.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
And then there.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Came a call from the Volkslan group and they offered
me the position of CEO of Lamborghini. A lot of
my friends said not to go because it was a
hire and fireplace, and I said, at the end of
the day, this is an opportunity which is coming once
in a lifetime that you have and let's say responsibility,
a global responsibility from development or purchasing, production, marketing and sales,
(08:10):
which was my let's say my starting point in Fiat
and Mercedes, and so I started and I never regretted.
There were eleven years which were outstanding. We had a
lot of things we achieved. I had the opportunity and
or to make the launch of the Aventa or of
(08:31):
the Hura Can, to introduce all the the dairy ways,
also to have the one offs and a few off
strategies started, and to work a lot on the brand.
This was something which is incredible. And then the group
asked me to move to our the Sport Our. The
Sport is a company in embedded and the Audi AG
so it's a different approach.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
It was interesting.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
But then there was the opportunity to go to Bugatti
because Bugatti was let's say a company which they wanted
to develop and they asked me. At the time Mattias
Muller told me what you did in Lamborghini was something
which we would like also to see happening with Bugatti.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
And then he was gone after four months.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
And Mattis Muller, that was sad for me because he
was like my German namesake. Okay, you know running Volkswagen.
You so you started under Pich.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
I started at that time it was no, it was
not Pie.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It was Pitchitzi at that time, and then Wintercon. Then
it was Mattias Muller, and then at the NDS, and
now it's Olive O Bloom.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
What was your key to success working with those guys?
I mean, those are those are some sort of notorious bosses.
What did you learn from working around them? And what
was the key to your survival navigating that time?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
You know, the toughest school I had was in Fiat Auto,
and I have to say that my mentors in Fiat
without having official mentors, this was something which was not existing.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
In Fiat at that time.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
They teach me always to face your fears, never to
give up, always to go ahead, and to be honest
because all along you have to watch in the mirror
every day, so you cannot hide from the truth. And
this was something which I appreciated because it's easy to say,
but if you are always and let's say in a
(10:31):
sandwich position and big corporations are like this, it was
important for me and from in the folks line group
for me, let's say, the longest CEO I was serving
for was Martin mintach On as the and he was
the maniac I sally. He is, in my opinion, about products,
(10:53):
about details, so he.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Gave us.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
The focus on the product, which I really appreciated. Mattias
Muller is wasn't He's a friend, so we always had
a very good relation and he trusted me. And Oliver
Bloomer is a different type of style, but he's somebody
who is looking very much into the future. He has
a strategy and I really appreciate to be in his team.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
By the way I want, I feel like Matthias Muller
is a true Faber. You know. I guess this won't
be as interesting for everybody around the world, but in
Germany people are very different if they're from you know,
the Black Forest exactly, or Berlin.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Matthias Muller was from eastern Germany by burs Or. He
is from eastern Germany by Bursa, but he is more
He worked then for Porsche, but he was for the
longest time of.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
His career he was in Audi so his dialect is
very Bavarian. I don't know if you remember that. And
when he moved and I think he still lives in Shortga.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Now I was just guessing I was wrong. I I
just feel like I just feel like he would look
good with the mustache, and that's like, what the schwab do?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
You know?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So, who were you looking at as people that you
admired and respected, either you know, just personally or professionally.
And I'm asking because you know, we've known each other
for so long at this point, but most of our
conversations are very focused on the business. But I kind
of wanted to learn more about you and your development
because you've been around for you know, you've been at
(12:31):
the turk for a while.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, it's difficult to say. For most my father he
was somebody I was looking up to. He was never
somebody who was telling me what to do and how
to do, but he was always giving me guidelines and
something which I appreciate now that he's not in this
world anymore. And I understood a lot at my age
(12:54):
today on how he acted and why. So it was
always a given that he was present the moments when
I needed the most, and it was clear that I
had to study after after high school, but he was
never pushing me in one direction. And and also when
I said that I wanted to be a professional soldier,
he was.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Maybe shocked, was he not.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
He was not a military man, No, he was.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
He was a diplomat for the United Nations for this
special organization which is the headquarter in Rome, which is
called the Food and Agricultural Organization the FAO. So this
is the reason why I grew up in Italyan and Rome.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And you would have been an Italian soldier or you
were to join the Bundesweer.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I was in the German Army. I was a paratrooper,
and I wanted to This was what I wanted to be.
I wanted to be in the in the now, in
the culture.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Exactly, very cool.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
It's also interesting to me that you were in the
kind of Agnelli clan like you were in the Ferrari group,
and then you went to run Lamborghini. What what's that relationship?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Like?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Is there a rivalry? They're both in the motor valley, right,
but they're very they're seen I think, very differently culturally.
They have very different clientele. I would think, how do
you view that.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Fiat Auto is something which is not existing today anymore?
And Ferrari is in let's say, is a made in
Italy and it's an icon not only in Italy but
worldwide and Lamborghini was an underdog for decades now, it
(14:36):
was not very successful company. Only in the last time
we were or we are working on eye level. In
my opinion, we are very different in terms of approach.
Our careers are very recognizable, and I think it's good
to be let's say, rivals, but also very close because
(14:58):
we learn. At least I learned a lot from Fiata Auto,
but also from my the Ferrari guys. I know a
lot of them and I only can tell positive things,
so there is rivalry. We have different products, very different
from the DNA and the approach, but at the end
we serve the same customer type.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Rich because I think of you know, if I go
to if I go to a Ferrari challenge, you know,
weekend Lime Rock or like a Lamborghini driving school in Vegas.
There's a different kind of yes, dude.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
For sure, we have younger customers with people which want
to be recognized in their cars. They're very proud, they
love made in Italy. But also the Ferai guys. I
have this attitude and I would never say something negative
about Ferrari.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
You will not.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I'm not trying to tease that out of you.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I'm just I'm curious. Did you watch the Ferrari movie partially?
Did you? What was your impression boring? I saw the
whole thing at a screening, and I love Penelope Crews. Okay,
that's my take.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
But the thing that was impressed upon me in that movie,
and I guess I knew already, was that Enzo Ferrari
sold cars to race, whereas I think a company like
Portia races to sell cars, right. But for Lamborghini, there
is really I mean, there is racing, but it's not
really part of your DNA like those other companies.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Flamborghini. When he founded the company, he said, I don't
have to prove that I'm able to do the best guys,
the best super spots guards. So I am not going
into racing because it's a matter of fact that ours
are the best in my opinion.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Things change.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
So we started with the one make race series in
two thousand and nine, which we called super Trofeit we
start at first in Europe, then we have also won
in North America and one in Asia. It's very successful
until today, and then we stepped up into GT.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Three.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
All these type of races have a similarity to oh
they are still into gentlemen drivers' attitude. You can recognize
the street legal car on the racetrack, so our Hura
can looks very much the same if it's a.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
GT three or street legal car.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Also super trofil And now we entered this LMDh or
the hypercar idea, and this was a tough decision for us,
but it came at the right time. Why because we
have a hybrid system, which.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Is now what we're doing with all our lineup.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
We were racing with WEC and IMSA, which is also
very positive, so we have a worldwide visibility. They told
us that it's going to be an overseeable budget, so
this was another reason why. And last but not least,
also the fact that you have it's endurance racing, so
(18:05):
you have a lot of good results in terms of
testing materials and things like this, which is then also
useful in the serious production. So these are the things
we came late. We came one year later than the others.
And yeah, now we're looking forward to Lemon this year,
which is the will be the most important.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Race of the year.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I guess now we can sort of dig into the
car thing. And you know you mentioned that it was
not a foregone conclusion that you would get into racing,
and that it was a difficult decision. What were some
of the arguments to not get involved, just so we
can understand what's the debate on the other side of
not doing it.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
That you don't have the money, that you don't have
the head count, that you don't have time to do so,
that you're losing, so that you're not competitive. All these
fears are part of the business because you have a
name which you have to defend. And so when we
decide that we decided to start slow with the one
(19:15):
makes a serious and therefore to step into it peer
a peer, and it worked out so far. It's it's
I think it's the right approach because we are not
having a company in the company because Big OEMs they
really have hundreds of people working for motorsports, which we don't.
(19:36):
We have a very limited budget, so we have to
work with partners and this is limiting also the opportunities
not to be to be big and to to win
big races. But I think it's the it's what people
expect and first of all is what we want to
be because we want to, let's say, challenge ourselves also
in racing and not only in street legal.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
By the way. By the way, the Event to Door
was for a long time my all time favorite car.
I actually met you on the circuit they f one
circuit in Barcelona when I first drove the Event to
Door SV, which was awesome. Recently I got to drive
the what happened?
Speaker 4 (20:13):
That was the day when they gave us the okay
on the.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yes so long ago. Yeah, anyway, that was a very
memorable time for me. So but recently I got to
drive the Hurrican Stato. And I've driven the Hurrican before
at different racing schools and stuff, and it's obviously the
track focused weapon of your arsenal, but the Strato changed
(20:39):
everything for me. I think it was the most fun
I've ever had driving a car off the track, you know,
not off road, because I wasn't allowed to take it
off road.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
But I think the question is do you get many
customers crying in your cars, because apparently the car broped
Matt to tears in.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
A happy one. What he said, it was just the
brute of the engine combined with you know, the compliance
of the suspension was just such an amazing experience, and
the ultimate question is what comes next because the eventa
door has been replaced now by the rib Welto, so
we know what the twelve cylinder follow on is what
(21:19):
comes now after the hurrican.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
But we will have the new Racan.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
We will present the second part in the second part
of the year here in the US, so it will
be a very important event.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
It will be the world premiere.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
And what we're trying to do in Lamborghini, even with
limited resources, is always to, let's say, to do something
which is unexpected now, and the Serrato was something like this,
and we said, we have a four wheel drive system,
we have Araca, which is a robust, we have the
best quality. Ever, why can't we do something which is
not off fraud but off the concrete. No strato means
(21:55):
the one which is on dusty roads.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I took it, by the way, on the oldest unpaved
road in America. Oh yeah, you see, yeah, from the
Revolutionary War, just about fifty miles north of here. It
was very cool.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
So, and it's a car which is not only lifestyle
and it's for example, I think in the US, but
also and the rest of the world. With all the
potholes in the cities. It's a car which is even
more easy to drive than comfortable. And on top of that,
if you go on the race, seg off road so
much fun. And I think that a car company like
(22:28):
ours can do things like this, and we were daring
to do so, and the success for me was expected.
For others was unexpected, but for me it was very
much expected.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
It does seem to me that Lamborghini is a company
that isn't afraid to have a little bit of fun.
I know, certainly your protective of the brand and the image,
and it's really a good point when you say, look,
you have to worry about losing it. When you join
a racing series, you could lose and that doesn't reflect well.
(23:01):
But it does seem like Lamborghini is a little more
open to playfulness. Is that accurate? And how do you
give that image without actually exposing yourself to too big
of a risk.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
But I think that if you buy a Lamborghini, you
don't buy the car because you need it, but because
you want to have a dream fulfilled And also in
terms of racing, maybe I forgot to say if we lose,
we lose in style, not because everybody recognizes that we
are the smallest or we am in a big series,
so they see what is happening. When we have one
(23:39):
car on the grid, there are others which have three
or five and this is clearly then giving you the
idea of what is happening. And for sure we have
to do things which others don't dare to do, and
in my opinion, this is one of the things. And
we always talk to our people and we ask them
to come up with ideas and they set out to
(24:00):
as just an example, and who knows what is coming next.
So all the attempts we did on the essents I
know which was the last of a kind in terms
of B twelve based on the Aventa thor as a
not amligated car, which is it was an incredible success
and we did it and we risk to lose, but
(24:24):
it was very well perceived.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I would like to have one of those. By the way,
after you work at Audi, Rnchport and Bugatti and Lamborghini,
I would expect that if I go into your personal
garage at home, you've got a hirone sitting there, maybe
in RS six.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I mean I've seen him in a Bugatti, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
An eventa door like one of the limited editions. What
have you got at home?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
So, first of all, I'm not that rich.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Second, I don't have any car which is belonging to
me because I don't have space. And frankly speaking, I
love to drive cars, but I also know that if
you have historical cars, which I like and I appreciate,
you have to take care of them. And I don't
have time, and I don't want to bother others to
(25:13):
take care of my staff. There are cars which I
love but I cannot afford for sure, and others I
could afford, but I never bought because of what I said.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Now, but when you one day, So you don't own
a single car, no, no one, Okay, what about a motorcycle?
Motorcycles don't have the space issue.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, you're right, but.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
It's no.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I don't own a motorbike, but I still I'm always
tempted to buy one.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I can't believe like Cloudio dominically doesn't at least give
you a motorbike.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Just now. You always asked me if I want to,
I can drive whatever I want. He gives me always
the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
You might actually have a very smart idea, which is
you get access to all of these things, but you
don't have the headache and the responsibility of actually owning
any of them.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
So far.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yes, yes, if we speak about let's say today's production cars,
if we speak about let's say historic cars, then for
sure or not.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
No, but this is something which I could not afford.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I have to say, but you clearly do love driving
and experiencing the automobiles, and I my memory of you
is on the Milli Milia. You were in a Bugatti
with a beautiful woman along the route. Not to say
too much, but she was gorgeous and it just I mean,
(26:40):
in the middle of Italy in the summer, it just
was the most beautiful scene, and I know it just
seemed very much like, oh, this is such a beautiful
slice of life in that moment. You certainly do enjoy
the experience of driving roads in wonderful cars.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Have to say that, I'm one of the few lucky
persons which can combine this type of atmosphere and experience
with your job now and also to test those cards
in different different environments. So for me, this is something
which I I am very happy and glad that I
(27:22):
have the opportunity to do so. And therefore I feel blessed.
What that's Can I say?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yes? Congratulations? Congratulations, dude, you win. Let me ask about
a little bit about the ev future because you now
have basically two plug in hybrids, right, I mean.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Two, and we will get the third one.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
You have the revwelto, we have the awerdo that now,
the Urus essay, and then there will be the follower
of the Huracan, and.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
The follow of the Hurricane also will be a plug
in hybrid.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Also would be a plug in hybrid.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Can you tell us any more about the power train? No?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
No?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
All right? So what about the full battery electric vehicle
that you have in store the Lanza door? Is that
gonna be? Is there any chance there will be like
an internal combustion what they used to call a range extender,
because I was thinking if you put one of the
Ducati Panagali V fours in there, it could help with
the sound and with the vibes, the smells. You know,
(28:17):
it wouldn't be fully evy.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
We would never put something which is not our engine
inside our cars.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But you know the things, you know that there was
a there was a concept with the Panagali twin, with
the eleven ninety nine twin I remember, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Not for Lamborghini.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
No, it was just was it just a Volkswagen?
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Was not for Lambo? No, no, it was not for Lambo.
But what I can tell you is that we think
a lot. The first of all, the meta of sustainability
is not coming.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
From out of this world. It's a meta which everybody
has to take care of. There are people which these
which were democratically elected.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
They make the rules.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
We have.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
A few requests as a manufacturer of our size, that
there is a let's say that the rules are the
same all over the world, which will should be one
of the things we have to take care And then
it's clear that if the rules and the laws are
coming quicker than the technology is accepted, or if the
(29:27):
infrastructure is in place, then it has to be adjusted.
It can be diluted. But at the end of the day,
we all have our responsibility, which is greater than just
driving a super sports car. So I would always say
that if we would be the only ones exempt to
do I don't know, sustainable cars, this would be very
(29:47):
bad for our image and we would disappear from the market.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
I'm sure about that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
So we have to do something which is accepting the
challenge and continuing to do cars really dream, make the
people dream. In my opinion, the opportunities also for electric
cars to be very, very emotional. This is not the
case today, in my opinion, is a bit too early.
(30:14):
But the five six also ten years down the road,
with all the technology which is coming up, I see
that there is a good opportunity that the things are
going to change for us. We don't need to decide.
Now we have the hybrid cars, we can keep them running.
Also after thirty five, if synthetic fuel is going to
be an option, for example, this is something we always
(30:37):
look into. The first full electric car will not be
the pure super sports car like the Reuerto, but more
daily driver. The Lansador is a two plus two GT
car with more let's say, ground clearance, and this is
something which in our opinion could work also for Lamborghini Enthosiassy.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Bridgs to me for a minute, seem like it was
just a bit of a bridge technology to go from
combustion to ELEC track. But now it's starting to feel
like they're here to stay the reviable platform and they
have a lot of benefits on both sides. And this
is an actual part of the business planet. It's not
just a stepping stone. It sounds like that's what you're
(31:21):
saying for Lamborghini as well.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yes, for sure, because if for us it's clear now,
we have always to promise that the next car is
going to be more performing than the actual one. And
the new commitment we have to give is also that
they are less emissions included, so the CO two missions
have to drop dramatically also for our type of car,
(31:45):
even though we are not making the difference now in
the CO two emissions worldwide with our few thousand cars
a year which are not even driven on a daily base.
But it's also a matter of but our footprint of
the brand is much bigger than the footprint of the cars,
so we have to take care. And in my opinion,
this challenge to be accepted, and we see it with
(32:06):
the WELT to that WEL, so we call it not
a plug in hybrid but a high performance electric vehicle.
So we inverted the P and H and this is
working I gave, but all of us accepted. This is
a very simple briefing to the engineers by saying that
if I go on the racetrack with the Riulto and
(32:27):
he comes back into the pit lane. Then the battery
never has to be empty, which in other words means
that you never drive around with an additional weight which
is not used because the battery is empty. And this
is something which is happening, and you can do a
lot of labs and the battery is still reloaded and
it's giving you the additional power but also the reduction
(32:49):
of the seattle emissions. So this is something which we
think is here to stay, but it needs also to
have an update when it comes.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
To the year thirty five.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Here in the US, for example, in California, you are
this zero emission vehicle legislation which is not one hundred
percent clear on how this is going to be ending up.
But in Europe today is thirty five or thirty six.
For the small manufacturers you have to have electric cars.
If this is changing into synthetic fuels and something which
(33:20):
is changing in this direction, we would be happy. But
also for all the hundreds of millions of cars which
will run in ee eenterin so in internal combustion engines
after thirty five, to have synthetic fuel would be a
big help.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
How much time do you need to pivot in order
to hit those targets which do seem to be changing.
I know, obviously you want to allow yourself a little
bit of space to change direction if you need.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
To, but usually you develop a car, you need four
four to five years. So this is something we are
lucky because we are changing all the lineup. Now we
don't have to decide immediately, and we can also see
what is going to happen. But sooner or later you
have to put the cards down.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Can you just educate us a little bit about the
considerations going into how you price something like an urus
and then how you would price the hybrid compared to
the internal combustion version. I'm just actually curious. I've never
asked you that before.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
So for us, the roots are a bit different. Now
you have high investments, low volumes. This is the trigger.
So high investments, low volumes, you need.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
To have a price positioning, and we are not positioning
because it's luxury. We are positioning because we have the
latest technology. We have very exclusive materials in the cards,
so there is a reason why, and it's for sure
that we need to have enough earnings to reinvest in
(34:54):
the future. We are in front of the biggest investment
into the future of this company. So it's hear that
we need to have this and if we want to
stay exclusive, if we want not to spoil it, then
we have to have, let's say, a price stability and
a price positioning.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
The pricing is not out of this world.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
So also in our range you have a comparison with
the other manufacturers, you position yourself because there is a
size of the segment of the market of the day
weight and this is the point. The step between in
turn combustion engines and the plug in hybrids is an
important one. We have to say it's an increase of
(35:35):
the price tag because there is a higher cost inside.
And this is something which is accepted by our customers
because they see that this is the next technology and
it is so far more expensive.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Than a substantial increase.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Right, Well, it depends on the car. But on the
for example, on the on the Urtles is not the case,
but on the Reworld it was the case. But because
it's a complet new developmental for a complete new car.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
All right, So that was our interview with Stefan Winckelman.
It was awesome having him here.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I cannot believe he admitted to not owning a car.
I think he's the first automotive boss that has ever
said that, and it's very cool.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Yeah, that's in a way I think takes a little
bit of kahonas for sure.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I mean he doesn't. He's just like, hey, he doesn't.
He's got access to everything.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I mean, so I thought, you have to buy a
Bugatti after you've been working in Mulheim and you know,
running the company. But he makes a very good point.
They are three million dollars. Not everybody has that kind
of disposal income.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Well, when his first reaction is he can't afford it, honestly,
my thought is, can't you get a deal?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yes, that's a good thing. That's a good point. But
he gets to drive him whenever he wants. I was
with him in the bilster Berg when I had my
turn on the Hirona and it was amazing.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And obviously he gets drive Lambos all the time, and
he can probably take anything from the Volkswagen stable.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I guess he's friends of the Ferrari people, so you
can take some of their cars once in a while too,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I mean there's so much there. I really want to
dig into this whole idea that he wanted to be
a military man. I think that is so interesting, and
that's another I don't know, it's just very unique. You
don't hear many people say they had wanted to join
the military and then they had to do with sort
of a plan. B.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
By the way, I mentioned a Lamborghini concept with a
Dukati motor. I was wrong. I've googled it now. It
was a Volkswagen concept. It looked a little bit like
a Lamborghini, but it was the Folkswagen XL Sport. It
was their hybrid that had a Panagali motor, back when
the Panagali was only two cylinders but still making one
(37:43):
hundred and ninety seven horsepower. I just think it's so cool,
and because to me, you know, when BMW had the
I three with the range extender, that's what they called it.
It was just I think a one point three leader
three cylinder motor. I thought it was a great idea
because then you you know, you're going to use the
all electric normally, but at least you have the sound
or the possibility of extending your range or like the
(38:05):
vibes in the little gasoline smell, you know. I think
it'd be cool if they did that with the Lanza door,
but they're not gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to see. I mean,
I don't sense that they are necessarily going to go
any which way by twenty twenty. I mean, they can
pivot again.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
It's getting close, though, he said, you know, four to
five years is the runway for a car developing a car,
and twenty twenty eight is like four years away. Kind
of what have you got coming up this week?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Well, you know what. This weekend is Miami Formula one,
so it's going to be a very intense weekend. I'm
going to head down there. Ferrari will be unveiling a
new car in Miami, so I'm very excited about that.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Do you know anything about what kind of car?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
They are very tight lipped on.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Four door sedan. Possibly that'll be the day.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
No, if that is the car, I will be shocked.
I think we can rule that off.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
That's never happened, right.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I have been riding motorcycles a lot, so, oh what
have you been on? I've been riding my Ducati Monster
S four r s desperately trying to get out for
a ride. The first day, as soon as I got
like a mile away from the house, the battery died
and wouldn't and wouldn't be jumped. So I had to
spend the most rest of the day. I had to
go over to Hudson Valley Motorcycles and Richie had an
(39:26):
old school like lead acid battery for me. Then the
next day, I got like a mile away from my
house and I ran out of gas, and so I
had to spend to get walk back to the house,
get in my car, go get a camp for gasoline.
So it was a difficult, but.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I find I mean, this is oh for two in
a way.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Well it happens when you're like kicking off the season,
but we're now.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
We're there, all right, all right, third time is going
to be the charm.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
So I'm focused. That's my focus right now, riding.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Good, good good.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I guess that's it for this week's episode. YE look
forward to hearing back from you after your weekend in Miami.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
I think it's going to be quite an intense weekend.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I'm Matt Miller and
Speaker 1 (40:06):
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. I'm Matt Miller and
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Hot Pursuit.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
All right, we have a very special guest this week,
Stephen Winkleman, who is the CEO right now of Lamborghini.
But he's worn so many hats in the automotive industry.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
He has to be one of the most interesting automotive
chiefs around. You know, he was at Bugatti, he had
the dual role of head of Bugatti and Lamborghini at
the same time, which seems like insane, an insane job,
but very fascinating guy.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And at Audi Renschport and before that he was at Fiat.
So yeah, I agree, he's up there with like Sergio
Marcioni for me, yes, as one of the most interesting
characters with some of the most experience of any of
the execs that we talked to. So looking forward to
that interview. I also want to hear a little bit
more about your trip, because last time I talked to you,
(01:05):
you said you were headed to Spain. I know you
went to Sevilla or Seville as we call it here,
and you know it's one of my favorite places. So
how was it It.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Was really fun, I have to say. Unfortunately the days
that I was there Friday and Saturday, were the days
that it rained.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's always at.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I know, out of a whole month of beautiful skies,
but it was wonderful. I went with Aston Martin to
drive the new Vantage, which is the next generation, completely
new performance numbers, some updated looks. Drove it on the
Monteblanco circuit in Seville or outside of Seville, and then
(01:46):
drove it for a couple hours in the rural areas
around town, which was gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Very cool. I would drive straight over to Cordoba, Oh
I love I mean, and check out the temple or
whatever it is and all the cool houses there to.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Say, Seville is so beautiful. Of course the old cathedral there.
And I did not know this, but that was where
Christopher Columbus sailed out of Oh yeah, on his way
to the quote.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Unquote Crystal Ball Cologne. Yeah. I love it, and I
did love the Asston when I saw the pictures at
first when it came out, I thought, wow, it's it's beautiful.
Now you posted some on Instagram that I thought it
looked a little bit too much like the Nissan Z
for me think.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
At least coloring. Yeah, that that has to be a
color thing. And I have to say I can't really
talk about driving impressions yet because I'm under an embargo,
but I can talk about how it looks. And I
think your take is because the one that I drove
was like a Nissan orange with black wheels, and I
don't recommend it an orange, but I think there are
(02:50):
some gorgeous silvers and sort of gold colors and gray
colors that make it look really pretty. This car, this
vantage is actually a little bit wider than the previous
generation and has got some you.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Know, yips, got some hips on it, got some.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Hips on it, and got some air vents and sort
of new arrow and the grills slightly even bigger. Yeah,
it doesn't bother me. I thought it looked great. I
would not get an orange, I think, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I agree. I think with Lamborghini, I would never do that.
I would get orange or like acid green. But with
the with the ones that you had at least on
your Instagram at Hannah Elliott X Oh, I like the silver.
I'd go with the more s dude color.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And let's be honest, that instantly makes you think of
a dB five or dB six. It takes you back
to the Bond days. You cannot go wrong. Actually, Aston
Martin says their most popular color is there green. They're
racing green, which is the same color as their Formula
One team, and they said when they debuted this, this
(03:54):
particular green with their racing team, that is the moment
when in the production cars this green became the most
popular color. It's interesting though it's not a true British
racing green has a little bit of blue in it.
It's very specific to Asston Martin. But yeah, they did
tell me that that is their most popular color for
their production cars. But yeah, I would get personally, I
(04:14):
like a silver Do you have silver?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Do you have a favorite Bond car or a Bond vehicle?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
No, I don't. I would tell you the Lotus just
to be contrarian a suir, of course, just to be just.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I mean when I first saw that, I think I
saw that movie in the theater. That thing goes amphibious
and it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, it's very cool.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
I know.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I don't. I can't say that I'm a massive Bond fan.
I mean, of course it's iconic and I do like
Daniel Craig as as Bond. He's probably to answer your
unasked question, He's probably my favorite Bond. But I also
didn't have a problem with Pierce Brosnan either.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I agree with you on Daniel Craig, you know, I
mean everyone, the automatic answer is Sean Connery, and because
he's got for me in it for so long, I
loved or More as well. Sure, but I think Daniel
Craig is the best Bond. I was only asking because
I recently saw in bat that Moke has a Bond edition,
because in the first few movies, I guess there was
(05:12):
a Moke somewhere in the film, and so there's a
Bond Moke, which is pretty awesome. I also like the
Triumph Scrambler that he wrote in the last one. I
love a scrambler, but I didn't like the last movie
so much. I digress, I digress.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yes, anyway, Saville was great, amazing food, of course, as
you might expect, and yeah, just any I didn't see
any flamenco unfortunately, you know. To be quite honest, I
was there for about thirty six to forty eight hours,
and most of that time was on a rape on
the racetrack, so I didn't I need to go back
(05:49):
and have some actual cultural moments there.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
The car it's such a it's such a hot place
for car and motorcycle debuts because the weather's so nice.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
There are many in Spain this year, Bentley, Porsche, Aston Martin.
There are going to be.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Quite It's also did you know, I'm sure you do
that almost all Lamborghinis are named after famous Spanish bulls. Yes,
which is weird because Lamborghini's obviously very Italian, right, but
they name all of their cars after Spanish bulls.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I like that, you know what. Let's change the subject
and we'll go to the CEO of the Spanish bull
car maker. Let's get more from our interview now with
Stefan Winckelmann. Let's get you first to give us a
little bit of your CV or your timeline, because you've
had important positions at some of the most impressive car
(06:42):
makers in the world. So how did you get started
and how did you do this round trip from Lambo
to Lambo.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I was more into motorbikes actually when I grow up,
because I grew up in Rome, and in Rome, due
to the weather, there was no law for helmet. So
for me was the first love was driving motorbikes. And
then when I studied, I studied political sciences. I wanted
to be a professional soldier and I did the two
years in the army and then I decided not to
(07:11):
do it, and so I had to reinvent myself and
by chance I started with a trainee in the commercial
department of Mercedes Benz and then they were looking for bilingual,
perfect bilingual German and Italians in Fiatauto at that time.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So you were born in Berlin and then your parents
moved to Romani exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I was born in Berlin.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
My parents moved to Italy to Rome when I was
a baby, and when I joined Fiat, I was there
for eleven years.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
And then there.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Came a call from the Volkslan group and they offered
me the position of CEO of Lamborghini. A lot of
my friends said not to go because it was a
hire and fireplace, and I said, at the end of
the day, this is an opportunity which is coming once
in a lifetime that you have and let's say responsibility,
a global responsibility from development or purchasing, production, marketing and sales,
(08:10):
which was my let's say my starting point in Fiat
and Mercedes, and so I started and I never regretted.
There were eleven years which were outstanding. We had a
lot of things we achieved. I had the opportunity and
or to make the launch of the Aventa or of
(08:31):
the Hura Can, to introduce all the the dairy ways,
also to have the one offs and a few off
strategies started, and to work a lot on the brand.
This was something which is incredible. And then the group
asked me to move to our the Sport Our. The
Sport is a company in embedded and the Audi AG
so it's a different approach.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
It was interesting.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
But then there was the opportunity to go to Bugatti
because Bugatti was let's say a company which they wanted
to develop and they asked me. At the time Mattias
Muller told me what you did in Lamborghini was something
which we would like also to see happening with Bugatti.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
And then he was gone after four months.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
And Mattis Muller, that was sad for me because he
was like my German namesake. Okay, you know running Volkswagen.
You so you started under Pich.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
I started at that time it was no, it was
not Pie.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It was Pitchitzi at that time, and then Wintercon. Then
it was Mattias Muller, and then at the NDS, and
now it's Olive O Bloom.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
What was your key to success working with those guys?
I mean, those are those are some sort of notorious bosses.
What did you learn from working around them? And what
was the key to your survival navigating that time?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
You know, the toughest school I had was in Fiat Auto,
and I have to say that my mentors in Fiat
without having official mentors, this was something which was not existing.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
In Fiat at that time.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
They teach me always to face your fears, never to
give up, always to go ahead, and to be honest
because all along you have to watch in the mirror
every day, so you cannot hide from the truth. And
this was something which I appreciated because it's easy to say,
but if you are always and let's say in a
(10:31):
sandwich position and big corporations are like this, it was
important for me and from in the folks line group
for me, let's say, the longest CEO I was serving
for was Martin mintach On as the and he was
the maniac I sally. He is, in my opinion, about products,
(10:53):
about details, so he.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Gave us.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
The focus on the product, which I really appreciated. Mattias
Muller is wasn't He's a friend, so we always had
a very good relation and he trusted me. And Oliver
Bloomer is a different type of style, but he's somebody
who is looking very much into the future. He has
a strategy and I really appreciate to be in his team.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
By the way I want, I feel like Matthias Muller
is a true Faber. You know. I guess this won't
be as interesting for everybody around the world, but in
Germany people are very different if they're from you know,
the Black Forest exactly, or Berlin.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Matthias Muller was from eastern Germany by burs Or. He
is from eastern Germany by Bursa, but he is more
He worked then for Porsche, but he was for the
longest time of.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
His career he was in Audi so his dialect is
very Bavarian. I don't know if you remember that. And
when he moved and I think he still lives in Shortga.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Now I was just guessing I was wrong. I I
just feel like I just feel like he would look
good with the mustache, and that's like, what the schwab do?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
You know?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So, who were you looking at as people that you
admired and respected, either you know, just personally or professionally.
And I'm asking because you know, we've known each other
for so long at this point, but most of our
conversations are very focused on the business. But I kind
of wanted to learn more about you and your development
because you've been around for you know, you've been at
(12:31):
the turk for a while.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, it's difficult to say. For most my father he
was somebody I was looking up to. He was never
somebody who was telling me what to do and how
to do, but he was always giving me guidelines and
something which I appreciate now that he's not in this
world anymore. And I understood a lot at my age
(12:54):
today on how he acted and why. So it was
always a given that he was present the moments when
I needed the most, and it was clear that I
had to study after after high school, but he was
never pushing me in one direction. And and also when
I said that I wanted to be a professional soldier,
he was.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Maybe shocked, was he not.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
He was not a military man, No, he was.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
He was a diplomat for the United Nations for this
special organization which is the headquarter in Rome, which is
called the Food and Agricultural Organization the FAO. So this
is the reason why I grew up in Italyan and Rome.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And you would have been an Italian soldier or you
were to join the Bundesweer.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I was in the German Army. I was a paratrooper,
and I wanted to This was what I wanted to be.
I wanted to be in the in the now, in
the culture.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Exactly, very cool.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
It's also interesting to me that you were in the
kind of Agnelli clan like you were in the Ferrari group,
and then you went to run Lamborghini. What what's that relationship?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Like?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Is there a rivalry? They're both in the motor valley, right,
but they're very they're seen I think, very differently culturally.
They have very different clientele. I would think, how do
you view that.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Fiat Auto is something which is not existing today anymore?
And Ferrari is in let's say, is a made in
Italy and it's an icon not only in Italy but
worldwide and Lamborghini was an underdog for decades now, it
(14:36):
was not very successful company. Only in the last time
we were or we are working on eye level. In
my opinion, we are very different in terms of approach.
Our careers are very recognizable, and I think it's good
to be let's say, rivals, but also very close because
(14:58):
we learn. At least I learned a lot from Fiata Auto,
but also from my the Ferrari guys. I know a
lot of them and I only can tell positive things,
so there is rivalry. We have different products, very different
from the DNA and the approach, but at the end
we serve the same customer type.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Rich because I think of you know, if I go
to if I go to a Ferrari challenge, you know,
weekend Lime Rock or like a Lamborghini driving school in Vegas.
There's a different kind of yes, dude.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
For sure, we have younger customers with people which want
to be recognized in their cars. They're very proud, they
love made in Italy. But also the Ferai guys. I
have this attitude and I would never say something negative
about Ferrari.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
You will not.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I'm not trying to tease that out of you.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I'm just I'm curious. Did you watch the Ferrari movie partially?
Did you? What was your impression boring? I saw the
whole thing at a screening, and I love Penelope Crews. Okay,
that's my take.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
But the thing that was impressed upon me in that movie,
and I guess I knew already, was that Enzo Ferrari
sold cars to race, whereas I think a company like
Portia races to sell cars, right. But for Lamborghini, there
is really I mean, there is racing, but it's not
really part of your DNA like those other companies.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Flamborghini. When he founded the company, he said, I don't
have to prove that I'm able to do the best guys,
the best super spots guards. So I am not going
into racing because it's a matter of fact that ours
are the best in my opinion.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Things change.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
So we started with the one make race series in
two thousand and nine, which we called super Trofeit we
start at first in Europe, then we have also won
in North America and one in Asia. It's very successful
until today, and then we stepped up into GT.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Three.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
All these type of races have a similarity to oh
they are still into gentlemen drivers' attitude. You can recognize
the street legal car on the racetrack, so our Hura
can looks very much the same if it's a.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
GT three or street legal car.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Also super trofil And now we entered this LMDh or
the hypercar idea, and this was a tough decision for us,
but it came at the right time. Why because we
have a hybrid system, which.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Is now what we're doing with all our lineup.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
We were racing with WEC and IMSA, which is also
very positive, so we have a worldwide visibility. They told
us that it's going to be an overseeable budget, so
this was another reason why. And last but not least,
also the fact that you have it's endurance racing, so
(18:05):
you have a lot of good results in terms of
testing materials and things like this, which is then also
useful in the serious production. So these are the things
we came late. We came one year later than the others.
And yeah, now we're looking forward to Lemon this year,
which is the will be the most important.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Race of the year.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I guess now we can sort of dig into the
car thing. And you know you mentioned that it was
not a foregone conclusion that you would get into racing,
and that it was a difficult decision. What were some
of the arguments to not get involved, just so we
can understand what's the debate on the other side of
not doing it.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
That you don't have the money, that you don't have
the head count, that you don't have time to do so,
that you're losing, so that you're not competitive. All these
fears are part of the business because you have a
name which you have to defend. And so when we
decide that we decided to start slow with the one
(19:15):
makes a serious and therefore to step into it peer
a peer, and it worked out so far. It's it's
I think it's the right approach because we are not
having a company in the company because Big OEMs they
really have hundreds of people working for motorsports, which we don't.
(19:36):
We have a very limited budget, so we have to
work with partners and this is limiting also the opportunities
not to be to be big and to to win
big races. But I think it's the it's what people
expect and first of all is what we want to
be because we want to, let's say, challenge ourselves also
in racing and not only in street legal.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
By the way. By the way, the Event to Door
was for a long time my all time favorite car.
I actually met you on the circuit they f one
circuit in Barcelona when I first drove the Event to
Door SV, which was awesome. Recently I got to drive
the what happened?
Speaker 4 (20:13):
That was the day when they gave us the okay
on the.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yes so long ago. Yeah, anyway, that was a very
memorable time for me. So but recently I got to
drive the Hurrican Stato. And I've driven the Hurrican before
at different racing schools and stuff, and it's obviously the
track focused weapon of your arsenal, but the Strato changed
(20:39):
everything for me. I think it was the most fun
I've ever had driving a car off the track, you know,
not off road, because I wasn't allowed to take it
off road.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
But I think the question is do you get many
customers crying in your cars, because apparently the car broped
Matt to tears in.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
A happy one. What he said, it was just the
brute of the engine combined with you know, the compliance
of the suspension was just such an amazing experience, and
the ultimate question is what comes next because the eventa
door has been replaced now by the rib Welto, so
we know what the twelve cylinder follow on is what
(21:19):
comes now after the hurrican.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
But we will have the new Racan.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
We will present the second part in the second part
of the year here in the US, so it will
be a very important event.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
It will be the world premiere.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
And what we're trying to do in Lamborghini, even with
limited resources, is always to, let's say, to do something
which is unexpected now, and the Serrato was something like this,
and we said, we have a four wheel drive system,
we have Araca, which is a robust, we have the
best quality. Ever, why can't we do something which is
not off fraud but off the concrete. No strato means
(21:55):
the one which is on dusty roads.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I took it, by the way, on the oldest unpaved
road in America. Oh yeah, you see, yeah, from the
Revolutionary War, just about fifty miles north of here. It
was very cool.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
So, and it's a car which is not only lifestyle
and it's for example, I think in the US, but
also and the rest of the world. With all the
potholes in the cities. It's a car which is even
more easy to drive than comfortable. And on top of that,
if you go on the race, seg off road so
much fun. And I think that a car company like
(22:28):
ours can do things like this, and we were daring
to do so, and the success for me was expected.
For others was unexpected, but for me it was very
much expected.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
It does seem to me that Lamborghini is a company
that isn't afraid to have a little bit of fun.
I know, certainly your protective of the brand and the image,
and it's really a good point when you say, look,
you have to worry about losing it. When you join
a racing series, you could lose and that doesn't reflect well.
(23:01):
But it does seem like Lamborghini is a little more
open to playfulness. Is that accurate? And how do you
give that image without actually exposing yourself to too big
of a risk.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
But I think that if you buy a Lamborghini, you
don't buy the car because you need it, but because
you want to have a dream fulfilled And also in
terms of racing, maybe I forgot to say if we lose,
we lose in style, not because everybody recognizes that we
are the smallest or we am in a big series,
so they see what is happening. When we have one
(23:39):
car on the grid, there are others which have three
or five and this is clearly then giving you the
idea of what is happening. And for sure we have
to do things which others don't dare to do, and
in my opinion, this is one of the things. And
we always talk to our people and we ask them
to come up with ideas and they set out to
(24:00):
as just an example, and who knows what is coming next.
So all the attempts we did on the essents I
know which was the last of a kind in terms
of B twelve based on the Aventa thor as a
not amligated car, which is it was an incredible success
and we did it and we risk to lose, but
(24:24):
it was very well perceived.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I would like to have one of those. By the way,
after you work at Audi, Rnchport and Bugatti and Lamborghini,
I would expect that if I go into your personal
garage at home, you've got a hirone sitting there, maybe
in RS six.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I mean I've seen him in a Bugatti, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
An eventa door like one of the limited editions. What
have you got at home?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
So, first of all, I'm not that rich.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Second, I don't have any car which is belonging to
me because I don't have space. And frankly speaking, I
love to drive cars, but I also know that if
you have historical cars, which I like and I appreciate,
you have to take care of them. And I don't
have time, and I don't want to bother others to
(25:13):
take care of my staff. There are cars which I
love but I cannot afford for sure, and others I
could afford, but I never bought because of what I said.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Now, but when you one day, So you don't own
a single car, no, no one, Okay, what about a motorcycle?
Motorcycles don't have the space issue.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, you're right, but.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
It's no.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I don't own a motorbike, but I still I'm always
tempted to buy one.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I can't believe like Cloudio dominically doesn't at least give
you a motorbike.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Just now. You always asked me if I want to,
I can drive whatever I want. He gives me always
the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
You might actually have a very smart idea, which is
you get access to all of these things, but you
don't have the headache and the responsibility of actually owning
any of them.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
So far.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yes, yes, if we speak about let's say today's production cars,
if we speak about let's say historic cars, then for
sure or not.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
No, but this is something which I could not afford.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I have to say, but you clearly do love driving
and experiencing the automobiles, and I my memory of you
is on the Milli Milia. You were in a Bugatti
with a beautiful woman along the route. Not to say
too much, but she was gorgeous and it just I mean,
(26:40):
in the middle of Italy in the summer, it just
was the most beautiful scene, and I know it just
seemed very much like, oh, this is such a beautiful
slice of life in that moment. You certainly do enjoy
the experience of driving roads in wonderful cars.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Have to say that, I'm one of the few lucky
persons which can combine this type of atmosphere and experience
with your job now and also to test those cards
in different different environments. So for me, this is something
which I I am very happy and glad that I
(27:22):
have the opportunity to do so. And therefore I feel blessed.
What that's Can I say?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yes? Congratulations? Congratulations, dude, you win. Let me ask about
a little bit about the ev future because you now
have basically two plug in hybrids, right, I mean.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Two, and we will get the third one.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
You have the revwelto, we have the awerdo that now,
the Urus essay, and then there will be the follower
of the Huracan, and.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
The follow of the Hurricane also will be a plug
in hybrid.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Also would be a plug in hybrid.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Can you tell us any more about the power train? No?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
No?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
All right? So what about the full battery electric vehicle
that you have in store the Lanza door? Is that
gonna be? Is there any chance there will be like
an internal combustion what they used to call a range extender,
because I was thinking if you put one of the
Ducati Panagali V fours in there, it could help with
the sound and with the vibes, the smells. You know,
(28:17):
it wouldn't be fully evy.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
We would never put something which is not our engine
inside our cars.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But you know the things, you know that there was
a there was a concept with the Panagali twin, with
the eleven ninety nine twin I remember, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Not for Lamborghini.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
No, it was just was it just a Volkswagen?
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Was not for Lambo? No, no, it was not for Lambo.
But what I can tell you is that we think
a lot. The first of all, the meta of sustainability
is not coming.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
From out of this world. It's a meta which everybody
has to take care of. There are people which these
which were democratically elected.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
They make the rules.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
We have.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
A few requests as a manufacturer of our size, that
there is a let's say that the rules are the
same all over the world, which will should be one
of the things we have to take care And then
it's clear that if the rules and the laws are
coming quicker than the technology is accepted, or if the
(29:27):
infrastructure is in place, then it has to be adjusted.
It can be diluted. But at the end of the day,
we all have our responsibility, which is greater than just
driving a super sports car. So I would always say
that if we would be the only ones exempt to
do I don't know, sustainable cars, this would be very
(29:47):
bad for our image and we would disappear from the market.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
I'm sure about that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
So we have to do something which is accepting the
challenge and continuing to do cars really dream, make the
people dream. In my opinion, the opportunities also for electric
cars to be very, very emotional. This is not the
case today, in my opinion, is a bit too early.
(30:14):
But the five six also ten years down the road,
with all the technology which is coming up, I see
that there is a good opportunity that the things are
going to change for us. We don't need to decide.
Now we have the hybrid cars, we can keep them running.
Also after thirty five, if synthetic fuel is going to
be an option, for example, this is something we always
(30:37):
look into. The first full electric car will not be
the pure super sports car like the Reuerto, but more
daily driver. The Lansador is a two plus two GT
car with more let's say, ground clearance, and this is
something which in our opinion could work also for Lamborghini Enthosiassy.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Bridgs to me for a minute, seem like it was
just a bit of a bridge technology to go from
combustion to ELEC track. But now it's starting to feel
like they're here to stay the reviable platform and they
have a lot of benefits on both sides. And this
is an actual part of the business planet. It's not
just a stepping stone. It sounds like that's what you're
(31:21):
saying for Lamborghini as well.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yes, for sure, because if for us it's clear now,
we have always to promise that the next car is
going to be more performing than the actual one. And
the new commitment we have to give is also that
they are less emissions included, so the CO two missions
have to drop dramatically also for our type of car,
(31:45):
even though we are not making the difference now in
the CO two emissions worldwide with our few thousand cars
a year which are not even driven on a daily base.
But it's also a matter of but our footprint of
the brand is much bigger than the footprint of the cars,
so we have to take care. And in my opinion,
this challenge to be accepted, and we see it with
(32:06):
the WELT to that WEL, so we call it not
a plug in hybrid but a high performance electric vehicle.
So we inverted the P and H and this is
working I gave, but all of us accepted. This is
a very simple briefing to the engineers by saying that
if I go on the racetrack with the Riulto and
(32:27):
he comes back into the pit lane. Then the battery
never has to be empty, which in other words means
that you never drive around with an additional weight which
is not used because the battery is empty. And this
is something which is happening, and you can do a
lot of labs and the battery is still reloaded and
it's giving you the additional power but also the reduction
(32:49):
of the seattle emissions. So this is something which we
think is here to stay, but it needs also to
have an update when it comes.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
To the year thirty five.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Here in the US, for example, in California, you are
this zero emission vehicle legislation which is not one hundred
percent clear on how this is going to be ending up.
But in Europe today is thirty five or thirty six.
For the small manufacturers you have to have electric cars.
If this is changing into synthetic fuels and something which
(33:20):
is changing in this direction, we would be happy. But
also for all the hundreds of millions of cars which
will run in ee eenterin so in internal combustion engines
after thirty five, to have synthetic fuel would be a
big help.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
How much time do you need to pivot in order
to hit those targets which do seem to be changing.
I know, obviously you want to allow yourself a little
bit of space to change direction if you need.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
To, but usually you develop a car, you need four
four to five years. So this is something we are
lucky because we are changing all the lineup. Now we
don't have to decide immediately, and we can also see
what is going to happen. But sooner or later you
have to put the cards down.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Can you just educate us a little bit about the
considerations going into how you price something like an urus
and then how you would price the hybrid compared to
the internal combustion version. I'm just actually curious. I've never
asked you that before.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
So for us, the roots are a bit different. Now
you have high investments, low volumes. This is the trigger.
So high investments, low volumes, you need.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
To have a price positioning, and we are not positioning
because it's luxury. We are positioning because we have the
latest technology. We have very exclusive materials in the cards,
so there is a reason why, and it's for sure
that we need to have enough earnings to reinvest in
(34:54):
the future. We are in front of the biggest investment
into the future of this company. So it's hear that
we need to have this and if we want to
stay exclusive, if we want not to spoil it, then
we have to have, let's say, a price stability and
a price positioning.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
The pricing is not out of this world.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
So also in our range you have a comparison with
the other manufacturers, you position yourself because there is a
size of the segment of the market of the day
weight and this is the point. The step between in
turn combustion engines and the plug in hybrids is an
important one. We have to say it's an increase of
(35:35):
the price tag because there is a higher cost inside.
And this is something which is accepted by our customers
because they see that this is the next technology and
it is so far more expensive.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Than a substantial increase.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Right, Well, it depends on the car. But on the
for example, on the on the Urtles is not the case,
but on the Reworld it was the case. But because
it's a complet new developmental for a complete new car.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
All right, So that was our interview with Stefan Winckelman.
It was awesome having him here.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I cannot believe he admitted to not owning a car.
I think he's the first automotive boss that has ever
said that, and it's very cool.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Yeah, that's in a way I think takes a little
bit of kahonas for sure.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I mean he doesn't. He's just like, hey, he doesn't.
He's got access to everything.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I mean, so I thought, you have to buy a
Bugatti after you've been working in Mulheim and you know,
running the company. But he makes a very good point.
They are three million dollars. Not everybody has that kind
of disposal income.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Well, when his first reaction is he can't afford it, honestly,
my thought is, can't you get a deal?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yes, that's a good thing. That's a good point. But
he gets to drive him whenever he wants. I was
with him in the bilster Berg when I had my
turn on the Hirona and it was amazing.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And obviously he gets drive Lambos all the time, and
he can probably take anything from the Volkswagen stable.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I guess he's friends of the Ferrari people, so you
can take some of their cars once in a while too,
for sure.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I mean there's so much there. I really want to
dig into this whole idea that he wanted to be
a military man. I think that is so interesting, and
that's another I don't know, it's just very unique. You
don't hear many people say they had wanted to join
the military and then they had to do with sort
of a plan. B.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
By the way, I mentioned a Lamborghini concept with a
Dukati motor. I was wrong. I've googled it now. It
was a Volkswagen concept. It looked a little bit like
a Lamborghini, but it was the Folkswagen XL Sport. It
was their hybrid that had a Panagali motor, back when
the Panagali was only two cylinders but still making one
(37:43):
hundred and ninety seven horsepower. I just think it's so cool,
and because to me, you know, when BMW had the
I three with the range extender, that's what they called it.
It was just I think a one point three leader
three cylinder motor. I thought it was a great idea
because then you you know, you're going to use the
all electric normally, but at least you have the sound
or the possibility of extending your range or like the
(38:05):
vibes in the little gasoline smell, you know. I think
it'd be cool if they did that with the Lanza door,
but they're not gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to see. I mean,
I don't sense that they are necessarily going to go
any which way by twenty twenty. I mean, they can
pivot again.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
It's getting close, though, he said, you know, four to
five years is the runway for a car developing a car,
and twenty twenty eight is like four years away. Kind
of what have you got coming up this week?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Well, you know what. This weekend is Miami Formula one,
so it's going to be a very intense weekend. I'm
going to head down there. Ferrari will be unveiling a
new car in Miami, so I'm very excited about that.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Do you know anything about what kind of car?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
They are very tight lipped on.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Four door sedan. Possibly that'll be the day.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
No, if that is the car, I will be shocked.
I think we can rule that off.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
That's never happened, right.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I have been riding motorcycles a lot, so, oh what
have you been on? I've been riding my Ducati Monster
S four r s desperately trying to get out for
a ride. The first day, as soon as I got
like a mile away from the house, the battery died
and wouldn't and wouldn't be jumped. So I had to
spend the most rest of the day. I had to
go over to Hudson Valley Motorcycles and Richie had an
(39:26):
old school like lead acid battery for me. Then the
next day, I got like a mile away from my
house and I ran out of gas, and so I
had to spend to get walk back to the house,
get in my car, go get a camp for gasoline.
So it was a difficult, but.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I find I mean, this is oh for two in
a way.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Well it happens when you're like kicking off the season,
but we're now.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
We're there, all right, all right, third time is going
to be the charm.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
So I'm focused. That's my focus right now, riding.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Good, good good.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I guess that's it for this week's episode. YE look
forward to hearing back from you after your weekend in Miami.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
I think it's going to be quite an intense weekend.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I'm Matt Miller and
Speaker 1 (40:06):
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg
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