November 1, 2022 • 51 mins
Michelle and Dr. Ramani are doing a deep dive! Dr. Ramani breaks down several aspects of narcissism. She teaches us how to handle narcissists in our lives at home or at work. She also defines what narcissism REALLY is and how to identify if someone in your life is a narcissist or just needs an attitude adjustment. CHECK IN to this episode if you need to make peace with a narcissist in your life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Listen. There has
been an end word that has become very popular. I'm
(00:25):
not talking about the long standing in word that we
know of, right, but there's another in word that I'm
sure you've been seeing pop up on your screens or
comments sections, and that is narcissism or narcissist. I'm curious
about narcissism. I'm curious to identify what it really is,
(00:49):
what signs to look for, I'm curious about it all.
That's coming up next on Check Again. Hey, every one,
it is another amazing week of Checking In. I'm delighted
that you guys continue to check in and share and
subscribe on this week's episode. It can go either way.
(01:12):
It can go delightful and informative, or it might could
ruffle your feathers because it might describe you, or it
might describe someone that you love as far as this
topic is concerned, but I'm excited to have this amazing
licensed clinical psychologist who has been featured at south By
Southwest Red Table Talk. She's also an amazing professor and
(01:37):
an author of several books on the topic. Of narcissism
her book Don't You Know Who I Am? How to
Stay Sane in an Era of narcissism, entitle and incivility.
That's what piqued our interests. Everyone, Please welcome to checking in.
Dr rominey der Vasula. Thank you so much. It's so
(01:59):
nice to be here. Thank you for having me, Michelle,
it is a pleasure. Now. I don't know about you,
but have you been hearing the word narcissism a whole lot? Well?
As you can imagine. I've been doing this work for
a really long time, so I've been using the word
for a long time, but nobody cared. I would say
in the last six seven years, we've been hearing it
(02:21):
a ton, and even more so in the last three
or four years. So it's the the use of it
has increased astronomically because for years nobody talked about it.
Even when I was doing my work, it was quiet.
I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But
it's also tricky because I'm not convinced everyone's using it correctly. WHOA, Now,
it's amazing you should say that. Because safe for social media,
(02:44):
there could be topics that come up right now, we
have a toxic masculinity. That's a hot topic. Women needing
to be more feminine and basically leave their independence and
boss lady at work, but when you come home, be
that submissive. Look at you, guys. I wish I could
(03:06):
see Dr Robberty. This is what I'm seeing, And maybe
I need to curate who I'm following. But we've been
seeing the word narcissism a lot, and more so how
it describes men. Yeah, which I think is not fair
because women can be narcissistic, and then non binary people
(03:29):
can be narcissistic. It's not a this is not a
gendered term. Now, let's be clear. It is more prevalent
in men. And but that's even that gets tricky. Grandiose narcissism,
which is typically what we think about the show off,
the person who wants the attention, the person who's really arrogant.
They think they're all that, they're not very nice, they're
(03:51):
super entitled, I'm the v I P to hell with
all the rest of you. That kind of grandiose narcissistic
presentation by far more men. But does it mean they're narcissistic?
Because what if they just didn't get attention as a
child and they finally get a good job, they finally
start making money, and now that's their identity. Look at me.
But if they don't have empathy, if they are a grandiose,
(04:14):
if that's the only way they go to the world,
if they're not capable of sustained reciprocal, deep intimate relationships,
if they're deeply insecure, if their ego senting the insecurity
is the core of the narcissism. By the way, so
you know what, the backstory is not that interesting to me.
I'm looking at your behavior as an adult, and I
think that's the thing that's often to get out of
jail free. Car. Well, they had a rough childhood. I'm like,
(04:35):
I am so sorry they had a rough childhood. I
really am, and I hope they get into therapy. But
that is not a free pass to behave badly towards
other people as an adult. That's it that I mean.
I don't even budge on that one. Wow. So there
are some teachings or things that I've gone been in
my mental health journey, and they always circle back to
(04:57):
the childhood I guess for pathology. But sure, like, okay,
that's cute, that's that I get it, but that still
don't mean you should treat somebody the way you correct
It doesn't give you a pass. No. As a psychologist,
I've worked with many, many, many narcissistic clients over the years.
I'm not saying this from a place of not having
gone into the room with them and actually done the
(05:17):
work with them. And when we unpack the history, it's
actually pretty clear to me where this personality style comes from.
But there's a point in an adulthood where we do
need to step up and take responsibility. And there's also
some fundamental qualities a person needs to have for a
successful relationship. So if you do not have empathy, you
(05:39):
are not good for other people, right, So we can't
walk around slapping warning labels on people. So that's where
people need to learn. If you're dealing with someone and
they don't have consistent empathy for you and they are
entitled and everything's about them, and they're really selfish and
they act out and rage when things don't go their way,
You're not going to have a healthy relationship with this person. Wow,
(06:02):
doctor Vasula, she came out Swigan a whole. So I'm wondering,
how did we get to a place in society where
we're seeing so much of this. Now. What we don't
have is we don't have epidemiology statistics, which is a
fancy way of saying the number of people who have
a certain personality style. We don't have those from the
(06:23):
fifteen hundred, fourteen hundred sixty. We don't have those for
all of written history and psychology is a field and
its relative infancy to even talk about this, we've only
been doing this for about a hundred hundred and fifty years.
Even the word narcissism and mental health, it's kind of
and it's it's sort of new. Psychoanalysts have been talking
about it for a while. But even when you take
all that academic background out of here, I'd argue that
(06:44):
narcissism has always been around. I think we just have
a word for it now. I think there have been
jerks since the beginning of time. I think they've been
jerks ever since we were living in caves. There's no
two ways about it. But what we see in the
research is very interesting is that, for example, adults like
let's call these people are over forty, every generation of
adults who comment to middle age or older age always
(07:06):
think that the generation of adolescents and young adults that
they are looking at is more narcissistic than theirs. And
that's just plain erroneous because young adults and adolescents definitely
are more self centered, and they're definitely more into their
friends than they are, for example, their parents and their families.
But as the personality develops into its full adult form,
(07:26):
which has happened somewhere in the mid to late twenties,
most people kind of grow out of that really entitled
kind of oppositional pain in the neck adolescent thing that
they've got going on, and then they become healthy, productive
human beings, So that that I don't think that that
trend holds up. But I will say this, here's the
difference in history now, So to your point, that is
(07:47):
it more prevalent. Once upon a time, if a person
needed admiration or validation, they actually needed to leave their
house unless they were just getting it from their family.
So we know there were tyrannical parents and the forties, fifties, thirties,
so as there's always been tyrannical parents, mean parents, abusive, unemotional, unavailable,
mean parents, that's one place they're they'd get their validation.
(08:11):
But beyond that, where are you gonna get your validation
at work? In social groups, which meant you have to
leave the house, you have to be out in the world.
Then social media came along, and I think what it
changed was now you not only no longer have to
leave the house, you could just sit at home and
keep posting pictures of yourself in your life and your
opinions and wait for the validation to come in. You
(08:32):
could also portray a false life. And so for narcissistic people,
they don't tend to have a well formed sense of identity.
They keep shaping their identity to what they think the
world wants. They think the world wants them near a
fancy carry fancy car. No, no no, but now it would
be more cool if I was a dad, So no,
I'm gonna pose with my children. Oh no, no no, I
it's gonna be cool. So they're constantly shape shifting to
get validation. In the world of social media, we can
(08:55):
try on lots of different identities. I mean, they're all falls.
But the fact is narcissistic people really took advantage of that,
and we've created platforms like people are getting rich by
being really egocentric and admiration seeking on social media, like
look at me, look at me, I'm an influencer, I'm
an influencer. I'm an influencer, and they're making money at that.
So I'm not saying influencers are narcissistic, because I think
(09:18):
there's a lot of influencers are there that are just
actually really business savvy and they're using a platform like
a storefront. But I do think that when we put
a economic value on attention seeking, that was a point
where it started sort of blowing up a little. And
then you throw in there even other societal moments like
unscripted television, like reality to television, where anybody who could
(09:39):
act a fool could act a fool for ten episodes
and get a lot of attention and maybe in some
cases turn it into a cottage industry for themselves. So
we went into this era where attention and validation seeking
started becoming really, really profitable. And not all attention seeking
people are narcissistic, not by a long shot. There's some
(09:59):
attend and seeking people out the who actually are pretty empathic.
That empathy piece is really important. So I don't want
a person to be listening to this and saying, well,
I post selfies all the time, but they're like, but
I'm you know, I actually really care about my friends
and I listened to them and I'm present with them,
and their friends agree with that, and their family agrees
with that, and they have healthy, committed relationships, and then
(10:20):
then great, good for you. It's that intimacy, empathy, depth,
self regulation. You don't rage at people. That's the stuff
that we're looking for for healthy. You want to post selfies,
you do you. You just got to keep that empathy
piece straight. Okay, so we've heard the word narcissism. Okay,
Dr Rominey. What is empathy? So, empathy is the the
(10:44):
willingness and the capacity to understand and be present with
another person's emotional state or experience. That's a real fancy
way of saying I feel you and really feel them.
Like so, in other words, if you if a friend
of mine is having a bad day, I slow down
and say, how can I be here for you? How
(11:06):
can I help you? Rather than you know what, this
whole emotion thing is just not working for me. Like
I'm supposed to be going out, It's like supposed to
be my day. You know, none of that, like you
really are able to be present with another person, to
be self aware. You know, Let's say your friend is
struggling financially, maybe this isn't the day to walk and say,
look at my new ten dollar handdug. You know that
(11:27):
lack of self awareness shows a lack of empathy, saying
hurtful things, you know, saying things without a filter, and
people saying, well, that's just me. I don't have a filter,
then you don't have empathy, you know. So, like all
these things that we sometimes give a free pass to,
empathy is that awareness of how our behavior affects someone
else and being appropriately present with someone else's experience and
(11:50):
not making it about us. So what I'm hearing you
say is that we throw the word narcissism around so much,
but snap that everyone is a narcissist, which you could
be for sure narcissists. If you like empathy, that's a
big part of it. But you still have to every
other stuff. You see, Narcissism is like a laundry list
of stuff. What is a few lack of empathy or
(12:14):
inconsistent empathy or allsometh the entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, attention seeking,
having trouble regulating emotions when they feel criticized, you know,
being really thin skinned and being really reactive, envying other people,
are believing other people envy you, being very egocentric, believing
(12:37):
everything is about you or everything should be about you.
That's the kind of stuff that makes up narcissism. It's
also the lack of interest in other people's experience, so
as a result, you're not able to maintain long term, sustained,
deep close relationships. Everything is pretty superficial. It is about
being really superficial, being very vague, only caring about how
(13:01):
things look, how things appear, rather than really going in
deep in terms of how they really are, and cultivating
a depth and not caring how how it looks to
the world, but actually going deep and ultimately narcissistic people
are actually quite insecure, but they're not in touch with that.
So we look for all that laundry list of things
I'm showing, So any one of those things by itself
(13:22):
doesn't make a person narcissistic. You kind of need the
whole list, you guys. That's why it's so important to
make sure that you have a licensed a doctor. Clinical
psychologists like Dr Romney, who can properly diagnose you, or
if you and your partner want to go for counseling,
(13:44):
have someone license. Because even there are a few things
that she said, either I heard myself or what someone
has said of me in the past, or I'm thinking
about people that I know, and then doctor, I feel like,
I'm like, but I'm hearing an anxiety in some of that. Oh, absolutely,
And I think that's really astute observation. Michelle. You know
(14:06):
one thing, One thing I want to say is that
I wouldn't use the word diagnose and narcissism in the
same sentence. Narcissist personality style. Okay, so let me give
you examples of other personality styles. Other personality styles include
being having an agreeable personality style, having a neurotic personality style,
having an introverted personality style. Those are personality styles too,
(14:29):
and we'd never say anyone was being diagnosed with agreeable nous.
Narcissism is just on that list. Now, Narcissism could easily
be argued to be a more maladaptive personality style. It's
also a more rigid personality style. So some personality styles
there's a little bit more room for flexibility or by definition,
they're more flexible. Agreeable people for example, are very flexible.
(14:52):
They're they're willing to kind of go with the flow.
They do have a lot of empathy. It's a very
pro social kind of personality style. Introversion is an interesting
one because a lot of folks out there are introverted,
but our society doesn't value that. Right, It's not a
bad thing to be introverted. I'm actually really really introverted.
But you know, in an extroversion oriented economy where people
(15:12):
have to be big and have to be out there
and have to be this and have to want to
be with people and network and all that stuff, it's
hard for harder for introverted people, right. I have to say, though,
changes in our economy around tech and things like that,
if a person can sit down and write or write
code or think about things in that way, you can
do that in an introverted way. Wasn't always the case.
So narcissisms of personality style. So we're not diagnosing anyone
(15:36):
with anything, but you've got to know what the personality
style is made up of. It's not just one thing.
Just because someone is a jerk doesn't mean they're a narcissist.
Just because someone angered you doesn't make them a narcissist.
Just because somebody cheated on you in a relationship doesn't
make them a narcissist. You've gotta have that whole list.
But you raised a really really important point we don't
(15:58):
talk about enough, which is that list you gave me.
That sounds like anxiety. It certainly is, And what we
miss is that people with narcissistic personalities can actually be
quite anxious. They're anxious at losing validation, they're anxious at
losing attention. They're anxious that they're going to get in
some ways, not that they're going to found get found out,
(16:19):
because they're not even in touch with the insecure part
of themselves. It's very unconscious, but it's almost like anxious
that they're gonna miss out. They're like going to live
in a chronic fear of missing out there. They're anxious
that they're very thin skinned that they're anxious they'll be criticized.
They're anxious that they'll get passed over, they're anxious that
they'll get abandoned. You know. So there's a lot of
(16:39):
anxiety about am I gonna lose all this external stuff
that I need. So narcissistic people oftentimes have some trouble
being alone because if they're alone, they may not be
being validated. So they always when's the party? What are
we going now? What do we do with other people?
Now that's not to say, oh, there's a subset of
narcissistic people who are more introverted and and they're what
(17:01):
we call vulnerable narcissistic people. But anxiety does cut across narcissism.
And we think that they're so braggy, so arrogant, so
SHOWOFFI so dominant, How could they be anxious? It seems
like they're making everyone else anxious. They are, But a
lot of what is fueling that is insecurity, and what
fuels insecurity goes along with insecurity is anxiety. This has
(17:26):
been a master class, right and we see courses being
sold for thousands of dollars to sit with professionals, and
here we have this broken down for us right here.
I've been sitting here in so much add of this
revelation that you're giving us, and my heart is actually
(17:52):
breaking for a narcissist. I mean, I think here's where
it gets tricky as a human being, um as a
person who has empathy. As a psychologist, I fully agree
with you because I have to tell you it's a
rough way to go through life, because, in essence, you
always need the feedback of other people. You're always thinking
(18:15):
everything is a threat. You're always thinking that there's going
to be a fight, there is this you know, You're
never comfortable, You're always malcontented, nothing is ever good enough.
That's a terrible way to go through life. I agree
with you now. That said, and here's where it gets tricky.
A lot of folks who get into relationships with people
with these personality styles feel that way too. I kind
(18:37):
of feel bad for them. I can see why this happened.
They've kind of had a rough start in their life.
They're not the you know. I can see why they're
so reactive. They had a rough dad, that rough mom,
they had, These bad things happened, they grew up in
a tough way. I'd be reactive too, So maybe I
just need to be kinder to them. Multiple things can
be true at the same time, so that narcissistic person
(18:59):
can have that backstory. We can feel bad for their
plight and how difficult it is to go through life
that way. However, anybody sort of sacrificing their life and
continuing to take the psychological blows just to stay in
the relationship because you feel bad for them isn't doing
anyone any favors. So at some level I tell survivors
(19:21):
I work with you know, you can work on that
compassion for them peace once you set the boundary and
get far enough away that you're safe. It's unfortunate that
sometimes you can go through such a horrific relationship that
you learn to set boundaries after the fact. Oh absolutely,
because I think when people are in it, it's exactly
that I feel for them. It's wrong to walk away
(19:44):
from somebody. Maybe I should turn the other cheek. Maybe
I should give them a second chance, maybe I should
forgive all of those states second chances. Forgiveness are really predicated.
They're based on the idea that when you do that,
the person's behavior changes, if the behaviors. Since behavior doesn't change,
then that's really going to be harmful to the person
who keeps handing out forgiveness, and then there's no behavioral
(20:07):
change and they're continuing to endure the abuse. Because as
difficult it is to have this personality, I gotta tell you,
I think it's probably more difficult to be on the
receiving end of it, got it, Especially when the person
on the receiving end they are feelers. I don't know
if it's rare that to narcissistic people actually get in
a relationship. It's more so the narcissist and the person
(20:27):
that actually is a sponge they feel they Right now,
you are the host of your own podcast, Navigating Narcissism,
and you speak to survivors of narcissistic relationships. Now, people,
when we think of relationships, maybe when we think of
a narcissist, we automatically think of a romantic intimate relationship.
(20:49):
But some people, like friends, you can maybe cut off
who seem to be narcissistic or the word we gotta
unpack this toxic relationship. But what about a narcissistic parent
who you just get necessarily cut out of your life?
What do you do? Well, it's a great question, and
you know, first of all, thanks for talking about the podcast.
(21:10):
We break down every kind of relationship, so what we
kind of remember is so much of what's out there.
Will often say, well, if you're in a narcissistic relationship,
you just gotta leave, and that's just not an option
in practice, I don't even think it's an option. And
necessarily every intimate or romantic relationship you may have children together,
there may be financial issues, cultural, religious issues. So I
(21:31):
I would guess about fifty percent of people in narcissistic
even like adult you know, again, intimate close relationships stay.
But going to the idea of a parent right, because
that's when it gets really complicated, because I almost think
you get sort of twice the pain there. Not only
did they shape your development by being a narcissistic parent,
which is an incredibly painful experience, it leaves a child
(21:54):
feeling very invalidated on seen, on heard. It shaped your identity.
It often leaves a child with a painful legacy of
feeling like they're not enough going into adulthood. Now you
have to have an ongoing relationship with them in adulthood,
where the narcissistic parent that's going to continue to manipulate
and invalidate and do all the things they do. But
I completely agree with you. For a lot of people,
(22:16):
the idea of fully cutting off a parent doesn't feel
like an option. They may still feel connected to their
other parent, they may feel connected to other family members,
it may be a violation of their cultural practices. Whatever
it may be, nobody has to give a reason for
wanting to stay in touch with the narcissistic person. But
it's a world of hurt because each time you roll
(22:38):
up to that narcissistic parent, they're going to continue to
be their manipulative, mean spirit itself. So a lot of
the work that I do with survivors and talk about
and write about and teach about is how do we
teach people to be with people with these personalities, including
if it's a narcissistic parent, not having to cut them
out without harming yourself. And that's things like having realistic
(23:01):
expectations and the hardest realistic expectation. And it all drives
into something called radical acceptance, which is this idea is
that narcissism really doesn't change. What you see is what
you get. They are not going to change. They are
not going to wake up one day and be an
empathic sweetheart. You're never gonna get that moment when they
roll up to you and say, you know what, I
am so sorry I didn't see all of you. I
(23:23):
love you. I now I fully see you you're more
than enough and it's never gonna happen, And if you
waste your life waiting for it, you waste your life.
But once you understand that this is the bad hand
I was dealt, I got a narcissistic parent. Listen that
everyone hits a black jack in the casino. Some people
just get bad hand. And getting this narcissistic parent was
(23:44):
part of your bad hand, and you play the hand.
And that might mean boundaries that for some people, though, Michelle.
For some people, and I know thousands and thousands of
people who fully cut off from their narcissistic parents, they
simply do not talk to them anymore. They cut them off.
They're like, no more, they're dead to me. I don't
want tom at my wedding. They're not going to meet
my kids. I don't want nothing. So there are many, many,
(24:07):
many people who do that, and there's many, many, many
people who don't. But to go in there thinking maybe
if I do it this maybe way, Maybe if I
say it this way, Maybe if I throw them a
great birthday party, maybe if I remember this, maybe if
I do Christmas just the way they want, or maybe
if we do that, there's nothing in the world you
can do to change them or bring them around, and
(24:29):
if you can get it's for some people, just getting
permission to just stop trying means that though I can't,
I roll up to Sunday dinner, but not every week.
I go once a month. You know. I make up
myself a promise we'll go. I'll go to the family wedding.
But as soon as that parents says three nasty things
to me, I'm out. You know, like, they very very
clear on their boundaries and they set them back. I'm
(24:52):
not leaving them alone with my kids because I don't
believe that they can be with them and be kind
and not be manipulative. So it becomes about no wing
they can't change, and no longer investing yourself in this
idea that if I do this, this or this, then
everything's going to be fine. This is so good. Boundaries
can also be enforced with family. They can be, but
(25:15):
they're tricky. So what I I think what gets challenging
is we use the word boundaries and we're like, oh,
that's just had a boundary. Good luck with that with
the narcissistic person. You know what I'm saying, like, that's
probably not gonna work. Out for you. So when I
say boundary, I almost You've got to remember that boundaries
aren't just what you do with another person. Boundaries are
an inside game right there. What you say, what I
(25:36):
what you say to yourself? I am not tolerating this,
And I work with folks. I talk about something called
a true north. I say, you know what, you might
be able to tolerate them talking all kinds of nonsense
and behaving like a fool, But what you may not
be willing to tolerate is them saying anything about your child.
For example, some people say the minute they say something racist,
I'm out. You know, like whatever the discourse that this
(25:59):
narci assistic person engages in, you gotta remember to narcissistic
people bait. They like the fight. They love the fight.
So they all start poking at you to get a
rise out of you. And so I work with clients
as they get out when the baiting starts, because they're
looking for a fight, and you know you can't win
at that fight. You know how the old saying goes.
You know, if you, you know, get in the mud
with a pig, you get dirty, and the pig likes it.
(26:21):
It's the same thing here, you get into an argument
with a narcissist, you're going to get hurt, and the
narcissistic person likes it. So once they start baiting you,
that's a great place to say, you know, I gotta
go now. A lot of times the narcissistic person says, oh,
I guess you can't take it. Huh, And you have
to be able to endure again that ongoing baiting and
saying you know what, I gotta go. This doesn't feel good.
(26:42):
Oh would you talk to your therapist? Your therapists tell
you to say that. I mean, I'm not this is
what I'm saying. We can talk about those boundaries, but
I'm not playing like this hurts. And so when boundaries
are very interior to us and to recognize, they need
that fight from you because if they can bring you
down to that kind of contentious level, you get upset
(27:02):
and then they can dominate. So that's why I say
to people, you set those interior boundaries. So it's not
as simple as I'm not going to come, because then
it's guilt. Oh, I guess you don't care about your family?
Do you know how much we gave up for you
and now you don't show up. You're that upity. I
guess you're ungrateful. Who's the one who's the narcissist? You
see what I'm saying. So it's not that simple. And
(27:22):
the grief and the guilt and even the shame that
can be induced by trying to set a boundary with
a narcissistic person, because it can be so manipulative for
some people, they say, you know what, I might just
keep going along. But the problem is if you keep
going along, then you're in the face of this sort
of unempathic, unkind invalidating relationship. So it's almost like you
(27:43):
can't win either way. Book Mark this part, Guys, listen
to it over and over. She has unpacked so much
just on about being in a relationship, maybe with the
parent or sibling, whatever, but maybe more so apparent because
you might not feel bad for cutting off a sibling,
(28:05):
but a parent, it's like they've given you life, so
you must. In some cultures, you must show up for
that parent, be there, no matter how evil they are.
And what's even worse than Michelle is on top of that.
So I'll say to people, if only you know your
story and the radical acceptance piece works, whether you leave
(28:28):
the relationship, or you stay in the relationship, but to
wait for the narcissistic parent to change or behave in
a way that is respectful or that is not manipulative
or anything like that. It's waiting for a bus that's
never gonna come. But the other challenge is that people
often be pressured to forgive. Okay, so your mother, your father,
they said, these pair travel things. Can't you forgive? Can't
(28:49):
you forgive? The answer to that is no, Because I
am really really tired of survivors being continually asked, please forgive, forgive, forgive.
They've been through a lot, forgive. They don't really mean it. Forgive.
They were young, forgive, they weren't thinking forgive. Why the
forgiveness is a gift for the narcissists? What the heck
is it doing for you? And I'm really tired of
survivors having to face down to this. There's somehow bad
(29:12):
if they don't forgive. Some survivors get to forgiveness. And
usually the way survivors get to forgiveness is when they
finally get the time, the help, and the support they
need to feel whole again. Then they have so mentally
clearly differentiated themselves from that narcissistic person and say, you know,
I am able to forgive because in some ways I
(29:32):
no longer care. And that's usually when we get to
the forgiveness point. But when a person is continually going
at you and then you forgive and they do it again,
and you forgive and they do it again, that is
almost the definition of masochism. That's so good, Yeah, heard it.
The person is probably not going to change, so there
is no cure for this behavior. There's no cure. But
(29:57):
I'm wondering, say, if a narcissist loses it all all
mean their possessions, a parent, a job, do you think
that they're like, oh my gosh, I see what you
all have been saying all along. Do most have a
come to God a moment? So that's a great question.
I think a lot of people hope for that. So
here's here's the trick. That's a pretty extreme moment, like
(30:18):
to lose everything moment. We could call it rock bottom, right,
rock bottom looks different for everyone. For some people may
not be losing everything. It might be losing their family,
like they get divorced, or they lose their public reputation.
It could be losing their money, whatever it is, Okay,
everyone's rock bottom looks different. And let's say a narcissistic
person hits rock bottom, it's going to go in one
(30:39):
of two directions for them. For a very very very
very small group of people who are the unicorns, it
becomes the wake up call. They're like, what have I done?
And they actually whether they do it through spiritual work,
whether they do it through therapeutic work, whatever it is
they do, whatever journey they take, they take accountability and
(31:02):
say wow, and that it's a unicorn though that June
and people should not be waiting for that. In the
vast majority of cases, when that happens, people feel like
they're a victim. Everyone was out to get them. Why
was life so unfair to me? You know it? This
is a which hunt, I have a target on my
back list, goes on and on and on of how
(31:25):
they shift blame. I'm taking the blame for someone else's
bad behavior, you know, victim victim, victim victim, And so
that's what we tend to see more often, and if anything,
it can often enrage a person with a personality style
like this even more. But for some people it can
be a turnaround. But it is the nature of the
(31:45):
narcissistic personality is that it is very very rigid, you know,
so it's not really open to change. Let me put
it this way. You have a personality, Michelle, I have
a personality. Okay. I couldn't change mind very easily. So
if tomorrow some but he said to me, Romney, I
want you to be an entitled b word. I want
you to be in an entitled horrible woman. And I
(32:06):
want you to march down to Trader Joe's and then say,
you know, hey, I need to speak to your manager.
Why are you making me stand in line? And then
I want you to sort of when your friend, your friend,
your sister calls you with her stuff, saying, you know what,
I don't have time for this right now. Like I
need you to not have empathy. I want you to
behave in a way that's more entitled. I want you
to start posting everything you do on social media. I
(32:28):
couldn't do it. I simply couldn't. I couldn't change my personality.
I am who I am, you know, and good bad
and seem like don't play, you know, I don't. And
if somebody said to me, you know, you're so interverted. Romney,
come to this big party, and I would say, do
I have to? Yes, you do, because we're gonna change
your personality. And inside of an hour, I would be
in the corner. I would be um trying to get out,
(32:51):
and when I went home, I would collapse into bed
from exhaustion. And so that's my point is that I
could take it for an hour, maybe even two, but
I know who I am. You know who you are, right,
and so we can't change our personalities. Why would we
expect that a narcissistic person could Okay, oh this is
(33:11):
so so good. So we've talked about the surface relationship
with the narcissists. Maybe it's a friend or a parent.
What about in a romantic relationship, are there signs in
the beginning that might go amiss in the beginning of
a narcissistic relationship. And here's where it gets tricky, Michelle.
We wanted to be so intuitive. There's always red flags,
(33:32):
you can always tell by the third day. And I
was just talking to a woman the other day and
she was in one of a relationship with a really really,
really bad narcissistic guy, and not until he did something
so terrible, like really betrayed her in like twenty different ways.
Did she ever know anything was wrong? By then? It
was like a disaster. But she said, up until the
(33:52):
day that all the betrayals got found out, she said,
I had no idea. I didn't see one single red flag.
And everyone around her says, we agree. It's not like
we're all like you ought to run way. You didn't
see it. And when she told me about the relationship,
I couldn't see one either. So not every narcissistic relationship
has red flags, and I think that's important to note
now that said most do, and so this stuff will often,
(34:14):
not always, but often show up early on. It could
be somebody who is not a great listener, or they
may be a great listener for like a minute, like
four weeks, six weeks, and then it'll pull back. They
may be someone who is inconsistent, so they'll be so
into you and up in your grill and like, I'm
crazy about you. I can't get a good moaning. Princess ganak, Princess,
(34:35):
You're my queen. I love you, I love you, I
love you, and then just as you're relaxing into it,
they pull away and you're like where's good morning, princess,
Like what's and you're staring at your phone and you're distracting,
you can't get anything done. And then when they roll
back in, a person's often so relieved that their love
stories back that they're now willing to put up with
more bad behavior. So it's really an indoctrination process, and
(34:58):
narcissistic people are really really it at that. Narcissistic relationships
moved too fast. Not always, but many times it's like, hey,
let's move in, and I'm like, um, yeah no. So
they move in too fast, they get engaged too fast,
they get married too fast, fast fast. They even do
things that are too intense, like hey, let's go on
(35:18):
a vacation ten thousand miles way, like you get you
should not need a passport in the first six weeks
of your relationship, okay, like you should not be taken.
I mean I think, slow your role and like get
to know this person in a very normalized way, because
if you're being dazzled I don't know about the Eiffel
Tower or something like that, you're missing the other stuff.
(35:38):
Narcissistic people aren't good at real life. They're not good
at folding sheets and doing the laundry, and traffic and
things not often being like exciting and you know all that.
So I think those early weeks and months aren't always indicative,
but they can be. And when you notice, it's like
really great, and then they pull away really great, and
they pull away and you feel like you're on this
(36:00):
you're sort of a chase. That's a bad sign, a
bad sign. So I met you three weeks ago and
we're already going, like you said, to the maldive, someplace
far away. Could that be love bombing? That is love bombing?
I mean that's the narcissist, you know, signature move that
love bombing is that intense overwhelming interest, attention, sometimes money,
(36:24):
sometimes experiences. But while it's happening, things are often moving
so quick or you're sort of almost so thrown off,
you missed the red flags. Okay, okay, So is it
a such thing like if this is too good to
be true? It is? I mean sometimes because I think
that what let's say, a person's in a relationship that's
moving too fast, right, yes, for weeks and five weeks
(36:46):
and moving to my place, moving I have a big place.
I don't want to keep coming and moving to my
place and you say, you know what, this is moving
a little quick for me. I really like you, but
I also like where I live. I like having my rhythms. Ah,
I guess you're just not that committed to this, you know.
I guess you you're just not that into it. I
thought you said you're looking for something committed. But okay,
that's cool. I get it. You and I are don't
(37:07):
want the same thing. Now you're into this person, so
you're like, whoa, No, I'm really into you. Okay, okay,
all right, okay, you know what, we'll try it out.
I'll come move some of my stuff in. Boom done.
I felt it as if like I'm in these shoes
because you are right, like you said, No, you are right.
(37:29):
I am into you. It's not that okay, Well like you,
and you did it succinctly of the steps a person
would innocently do, like Okay, I'll take a duffel bag
and just put it in the closet. Before you know it,
you've given up your lease. And then once they have
you where you want you they want you, that's when
(37:49):
things can start getting real cold, real fast, and drop
you like a happitade and start or devalue you. Yeah,
devalue you, and now you're stuck. You know how hard
it is to find a place to live in and
you had a place and you get You know what
I'm saying like it's and I know I'm not even
making light of it. We're living in times when things
like rents and stuff are really important. And so when
a person gives up their place and they make that
(38:10):
kind of an arrangement with someone, and now this person
is devaluing them. It's this idea of sort of cognitive dissonance. Well,
and now I live with them, I have to make
it work. So you start justifying their behavior. This is
so good, so good that I could talk to you
another hour, but I know you've got stuff to do,
(38:31):
but I'm so happy you know. Your books an incredible author,
your podcast as well, called Navigating Narcissism. You are the
founder and CEO of Luna Education, which is a training
and consulting company where you focus on educating businesses on
the impact of narcissism on health. We even seeing more
(38:52):
articles lately about CEOs and successful executives with narcissism. Are
there signs of a narcissist boss, and then how can
one culpe while working for one? So narcissistic boss is
gonna have all the same signs of any narcissist and're
not gonna have empathy, entitlement, all that. Okay, So it's
not limited to relationships all that. So it's going to
(39:14):
show up differently at work. Certainly, it's gonna be things
like they play favorites, they take credit for your work.
They're constantly changing the rules. They will love bomb you
to get a deadline met, and then you may not
always get what you were promised. They will future fake you. Yeah,
we're gonna move to these new headquarters and data and
then you're as long as everyone does all their work,
then I promise you this, and I promise you that,
(39:35):
but none of it's on paper. And they're like, oh, great,
we made the deadline. But yeah, no, I'm not gonna
do that. And so there's an inconsistency, there's a grandiosity.
They make these big, big promises and nothing ever, none
of it ever comes to fruition. And meanwhile the company
may be harmed. They're very manipulative, They triangulate, they turn
people against each other. These are often very gossipy workplaces.
(39:58):
They can even be harassment filled workplaces. These can be
workplaces toxic bosses will often put people to hazing rituals,
like you feel like you have to earn, you know,
your place in the workplace, but by doing things that
are really abusive or inappropriate or toxic as it were.
And so it's very real and we can't underestimate for
some people because we spend so many hours at work,
(40:19):
having a toxic boss can really result in significant mental
health impacts, physical health impacts, um and very real world
impacts because it's your job, and especially if it's a
job you've been at for a long time. It's the
kind of job where you have great benefits, and leaving
such a job means you'll lose like time serves, you know,
towards a pension or something like that. You know, people
might find themselves stuck in it. But it also could
(40:41):
mean that it really sort of shelves a lot of
your professional aspiration, Like you've come to find out this
person is not going to help help you get advanced.
There actually keep stealing your stuff or holding you back,
or might even be speaking badly about you. Two others,
So this can actually do a lot of toll, put
a lot of toll on people, and I think a
lot of well, I'm going to be the exception that
(41:02):
I'll I'll learn from this person, but I won't let
them get to me. I mean, if you're if you're
a normal, healthy human being, a toxic, narcissistic boss is
going to get to you, is going to get to you.
So like you know, so we said that you know
to set some internal type boundaries of what you will
not put up with. But can you do that at
work with the boss? I'm not gonna put up with
(41:23):
this boss. Yeah, I mean, you're apps. That's a great question, Michelle.
It's it's different, right, It's different what you can do
at work. So you're right, it's not like I'm not
going to show up because I'm setting a boundary when
we might get fired. However, you document the hell out
of what happens in those workplaces, like you say, every email,
every communication, when you know you're gonna need to meet
(41:45):
with them when possible, you asked that a third party
be available. When it's done, you keep summary notes, and
sometimes you even send those summary notes back to the
boss and say, hey, I just wanted to send you
a summary of what we talked about in today's meeting
for no other reason but to set a paper trail.
Is they made have promised something say okay, I was
very clear that if we meet the third quarter sales
(42:05):
total for this amount of money, then that means in
the fourth quarter we're going to be able to expect
for a new work stay so and then then if
that person receives it, then there's it's almost like it's
not perfect. It's not a contract. But if a person
needs to go to human resources or bring on a
labor attorney or something. I'm not saying it's easy because
there's no rule or law against being narcissistic. So you
(42:27):
really do need to show if you have a toxic
boss that what they did actually harmed you in the workplace,
like it resulted in a loss of salary or a
loss of status or a demotion. So it's a little
bit tricky in that space, but it can be things
where you know, if they say, well we need you
to stay later, say okay, well what will that Will
it be compensation? And can I you know, can you
(42:47):
can we just drop that down? The toxic boss is
gonna get mad if you say those kinds of things
because they feel entitled to your time. But it's about
taking notes, keeping really clear records, saving every voicemail, text message, email,
you name it if you need it. If it's a
large company, you may ask to be sort of moved
to another division or something like that. So there's different
(43:09):
ways you can sort of work in these systems, but
it's not easy. And um if they ask inappropriate things
like hey, we can just meet for at a at
a hotel for drinks, Like that's not what I mean.
I know people say, who in the industry, that's how
people meet. I think we've learned now from what's happened
in the industry that no, I actually think a better
place for people to meet is in our conference room
(43:29):
at a normal time of day and or in a
zoom or something like that. So it's really setting some
of those boundaries in terms of you know, they they
in some ways what narcissistic people do is they can
advantage a situation by having people a little off kilter,
out of familiar routines, familiar spaces, and they really run
with that, and they do they really they play fast
(43:50):
and loose with boundaries and appropriateness. But and I'm gonna
tell you, Michelle, I've consulted with so many people in
these narcissistic workplace situations. If ever there was a time
to cut it, cut people out, it's this because it's
not family. It's not a marriage with children, it's not
your adult child or something like that. This is a
virtual stranger who you wouldn't know unless you work with them.
(44:12):
And so when when it becomes very clear that you're
not going to get organizational support and that working with
this person takes a toll on you, getting out is
often that they find another job. I hate to say,
there's not that workplace stuff is actually some of the
most challenging because there's almost so little too you can do. Yeah,
you can take it to court, but that could you
(44:32):
could lose years and a lot of money, you know,
paying for the paying the legal fees. Yeah, and they're
going to make sure you lose. They're not gonna make
sure you're gonna lose. If it's a corporation, they're going
to bury you. You know, they're going to bury you
in paperwork, They're going to try to make you look bad.
They're going to subpaint in your therapy records. I mean,
it gets they get ugly with you, and so for
(44:53):
many people, you know, it's it's tragic, you know, when
you have to say, I don't have a choice. There's
this is not sustainable. I've been in that situation my
stelf and I and I'll never I've never looked back
and changed the course of my career, but I'll never
be mad I left. But had I stayed, it would
have been a disaster. But it really changed what my
career would have looked like. So I'm not saying this
happens easy, but I think that there is a point
(45:15):
where if, especially if the system supports the narcissistic boss,
and it's something I call the golden Goose phenomenon, If
that boss of yours is a producer within that organization.
When I say a producer, they create a lot of profit,
they've brought a lot of like they they're doing what
the company needs that, they're making money, they're bringing notoriety,
whatever it may be. Then the higher ups in that
(45:36):
organization may actually support your boss because your boss is
making the money. I can promise you this, they ain't
gonna fight for you. I feel like I know someone
going through something. I think we all do either if
we haven't gone through ourselves, we all know someone's going
through this. Absolutely, are you taking interns? I'm like, I
feel like I just want to sit at your feet
(45:57):
and just I am not, but I'm actually know I
have the privilege of now through the company I've I've established,
I'm working with another company, um that that provides therapist
training tools. So I'm working with them to develop a
lengthy therapist training program on how to work with people
who have experienced narcissistic abuse. So I'm working on that
(46:18):
so therapists have a better understanding of this and can
get sort of certified and how to do this work.
So we're hoping to begin launching that in and I
have up the podcasts where you can learn more about
hearing other people's stories and for people who are trying
to heal from narcissistic abuse. You know, again, therapy is
not cheap or free, and it's not always accessible. And
(46:39):
so as sort of an addition or something to round
up round out what people may not be able to
get in therapy or to add to their existing therapy,
I have a subscription healing program and if people pay
a monthly fee. Then they get a monthly workshop and
a question answers session. There's journal prompts, there's guided meditations,
there's curricular stuff and so and there's a community. There's
(47:00):
a moderated community of only the people there. It's not
social media, only the people in the program. And we
moderated it throughout the day, so if there's any kind
of exchange is happening that we're not comfortable with, we
shut it down. So it's not like social media kind
of stuff. And so it's a place of support for people.
And so that's something that we're also you know, we've
been building up. We talked about a lot of topics
(47:22):
relevant to healing and where can we find that. You
can find all if you go to my website which
is Dr Romney dot com. You can find everything there.
The healing program that you can get, the podcast that
I heart, or anywhere else that you when people subscribe
or get their podcasts um you can. You can get
my books anywhere you buy books. So I have those
(47:45):
as well, and I have a new book that will
be coming out in three specifically on healing, so for
people who want that to sit down with that. So
it's um, yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I'm trying
to keep as much of this, not only training therapists,
but teaching people how to push back on this and
so they don't blame themselves and for us to retain compassion.
This isn't about saying, oh, there are people are not
(48:06):
to stick, are bad, run away, But it's more like
to say you can retain compassions. I think we have
to for human beings. It's essential. However, you also don't
need to be someone's punching back. And on that note,
Dr Romeny, who you have just I want to say,
blessed us today and I know with folks listening, you
(48:29):
have been enlightened. I know you've been awakened to some
things and so take the necessary moves that you need
to make you deserve it. Dr Romeny, thank you so
so much, y'all again her own podcast Navigating Narcissism. She's
got an amazing book and um, don't you know who
I am how to stay sane in the air of narcissism,
(48:51):
entitlement and incivility, and her website repeated Dr Romeny dot com.
I think y'all should get into that course um and
that healing portal that she has as well. So thank
you for being with us, Michelle, I appreciate you so much.
Thank you for for what you are an advocate in
the space we need as many as possible. Yes, ma'am,
thank you for your gifts as well. Okay, y'all, this
(49:16):
is another interview that has left me with my jaw
on the floor. I gotta bring her back because I
wanted to get into questions of females and narcissism. I
want to unpack that a little more. I want to
unpack more about relational narcissism. It's such a layered conversation.
It definitely requires more than one conversation. She is absolutely incredible.
(49:41):
You can tell she don't play. You could tell she
might have a little experience somewhere as it relates to
this topic personally of narcissism. I was more so intrigued
listening to her talk about, you know, making sure we're
not labeling people or misdiagnosing people as being a nar
our sisters versus. Okay, listen, a person could just be
(50:02):
having a bad day. We can't label their entire existence,
or we can't label you know, you had a bad
experience with them. It don't mean that they're narcissists. Maybe
they just weren't for you, right, And that's okay. And
guess what some people are. It is what it is, right.
This is absolutely profound. Hopefully you were able to take
(50:22):
some notes. You might have to listen to this episode
again to really jrot some notes down. But I'm thankful
for y'all. I'm so thankful for y'all listening. I cannot
wait to continue to explore what more we can do
with Checking In. If you don't have my book, go
to checking in book dot com to secure your copy
(50:44):
to continue to learn more about my story and journey.
If you're curious, if you don't know how I've come
to be where I am and how I've even come
to this point in having a podcast by the same
title of checking In, I appreciate your love. I appreciate
your support and know that you are loved. Checking In
(51:35):
with Michelle Williams is a production of I Heart Radio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. Listen. There has
been an end word that has become very popular. I'm
(00:25):
not talking about the long standing in word that we
know of, right, but there's another in word that I'm
sure you've been seeing pop up on your screens or
comments sections, and that is narcissism or narcissist. I'm curious
about narcissism. I'm curious to identify what it really is,
(00:49):
what signs to look for, I'm curious about it all.
That's coming up next on Check Again. Hey, every one,
it is another amazing week of Checking In. I'm delighted
that you guys continue to check in and share and
subscribe on this week's episode. It can go either way.
(01:12):
It can go delightful and informative, or it might could
ruffle your feathers because it might describe you, or it
might describe someone that you love as far as this
topic is concerned, but I'm excited to have this amazing
licensed clinical psychologist who has been featured at south By
Southwest Red Table Talk. She's also an amazing professor and
(01:37):
an author of several books on the topic. Of narcissism
her book Don't You Know Who I Am? How to
Stay Sane in an Era of narcissism, entitle and incivility.
That's what piqued our interests. Everyone, Please welcome to checking in.
Dr rominey der Vasula. Thank you so much. It's so
(01:59):
nice to be here. Thank you for having me, Michelle,
it is a pleasure. Now. I don't know about you,
but have you been hearing the word narcissism a whole lot? Well?
As you can imagine. I've been doing this work for
a really long time, so I've been using the word
for a long time, but nobody cared. I would say
in the last six seven years, we've been hearing it
(02:21):
a ton, and even more so in the last three
or four years. So it's the the use of it
has increased astronomically because for years nobody talked about it.
Even when I was doing my work, it was quiet.
I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But
it's also tricky because I'm not convinced everyone's using it correctly. WHOA, Now,
it's amazing you should say that. Because safe for social media,
(02:44):
there could be topics that come up right now, we
have a toxic masculinity. That's a hot topic. Women needing
to be more feminine and basically leave their independence and
boss lady at work, but when you come home, be
that submissive. Look at you, guys. I wish I could
(03:06):
see Dr Robberty. This is what I'm seeing, And maybe
I need to curate who I'm following. But we've been
seeing the word narcissism a lot, and more so how
it describes men. Yeah, which I think is not fair
because women can be narcissistic, and then non binary people
(03:29):
can be narcissistic. It's not a this is not a
gendered term. Now, let's be clear. It is more prevalent
in men. And but that's even that gets tricky. Grandiose narcissism,
which is typically what we think about the show off,
the person who wants the attention, the person who's really arrogant.
They think they're all that, they're not very nice, they're
(03:51):
super entitled, I'm the v I P to hell with
all the rest of you. That kind of grandiose narcissistic
presentation by far more men. But does it mean they're narcissistic?
Because what if they just didn't get attention as a
child and they finally get a good job, they finally
start making money, and now that's their identity. Look at me.
But if they don't have empathy, if they are a grandiose,
(04:14):
if that's the only way they go to the world,
if they're not capable of sustained reciprocal, deep intimate relationships,
if they're deeply insecure, if their ego senting the insecurity
is the core of the narcissism. By the way, so
you know what, the backstory is not that interesting to me.
I'm looking at your behavior as an adult, and I
think that's the thing that's often to get out of
jail free. Car. Well, they had a rough childhood. I'm like,
(04:35):
I am so sorry they had a rough childhood. I
really am, and I hope they get into therapy. But
that is not a free pass to behave badly towards
other people as an adult. That's it that I mean.
I don't even budge on that one. Wow. So there
are some teachings or things that I've gone been in
my mental health journey, and they always circle back to
(04:57):
the childhood I guess for pathology. But sure, like, okay,
that's cute, that's that I get it, but that still
don't mean you should treat somebody the way you correct
It doesn't give you a pass. No. As a psychologist,
I've worked with many, many, many narcissistic clients over the years.
I'm not saying this from a place of not having
gone into the room with them and actually done the
(05:17):
work with them. And when we unpack the history, it's
actually pretty clear to me where this personality style comes from.
But there's a point in an adulthood where we do
need to step up and take responsibility. And there's also
some fundamental qualities a person needs to have for a
successful relationship. So if you do not have empathy, you
(05:39):
are not good for other people, right, So we can't
walk around slapping warning labels on people. So that's where
people need to learn. If you're dealing with someone and
they don't have consistent empathy for you and they are
entitled and everything's about them, and they're really selfish and
they act out and rage when things don't go their way,
You're not going to have a healthy relationship with this person. Wow,
(06:02):
doctor Vasula, she came out Swigan a whole. So I'm wondering,
how did we get to a place in society where
we're seeing so much of this. Now. What we don't
have is we don't have epidemiology statistics, which is a
fancy way of saying the number of people who have
a certain personality style. We don't have those from the
(06:23):
fifteen hundred, fourteen hundred sixty. We don't have those for
all of written history and psychology is a field and
its relative infancy to even talk about this, we've only
been doing this for about a hundred hundred and fifty years.
Even the word narcissism and mental health, it's kind of
and it's it's sort of new. Psychoanalysts have been talking
about it for a while. But even when you take
all that academic background out of here, I'd argue that
(06:44):
narcissism has always been around. I think we just have
a word for it now. I think there have been
jerks since the beginning of time. I think they've been
jerks ever since we were living in caves. There's no
two ways about it. But what we see in the
research is very interesting is that, for example, adults like
let's call these people are over forty, every generation of
adults who comment to middle age or older age always
(07:06):
think that the generation of adolescents and young adults that
they are looking at is more narcissistic than theirs. And
that's just plain erroneous because young adults and adolescents definitely
are more self centered, and they're definitely more into their
friends than they are, for example, their parents and their families.
But as the personality develops into its full adult form,
(07:26):
which has happened somewhere in the mid to late twenties,
most people kind of grow out of that really entitled
kind of oppositional pain in the neck adolescent thing that
they've got going on, and then they become healthy, productive
human beings, So that that I don't think that that
trend holds up. But I will say this, here's the
difference in history now, So to your point, that is
(07:47):
it more prevalent. Once upon a time, if a person
needed admiration or validation, they actually needed to leave their
house unless they were just getting it from their family.
So we know there were tyrannical parents and the forties, fifties, thirties,
so as there's always been tyrannical parents, mean parents, abusive, unemotional, unavailable,
mean parents, that's one place they're they'd get their validation.
(08:11):
But beyond that, where are you gonna get your validation
at work? In social groups, which meant you have to
leave the house, you have to be out in the world.
Then social media came along, and I think what it
changed was now you not only no longer have to
leave the house, you could just sit at home and
keep posting pictures of yourself in your life and your
opinions and wait for the validation to come in. You
(08:32):
could also portray a false life. And so for narcissistic people,
they don't tend to have a well formed sense of identity.
They keep shaping their identity to what they think the
world wants. They think the world wants them near a
fancy carry fancy car. No, no no, but now it would
be more cool if I was a dad, So no,
I'm gonna pose with my children. Oh no, no no, I
it's gonna be cool. So they're constantly shape shifting to
get validation. In the world of social media, we can
(08:55):
try on lots of different identities. I mean, they're all falls.
But the fact is narcissistic people really took advantage of that,
and we've created platforms like people are getting rich by
being really egocentric and admiration seeking on social media, like
look at me, look at me, I'm an influencer, I'm
an influencer. I'm an influencer, and they're making money at that.
So I'm not saying influencers are narcissistic, because I think
(09:18):
there's a lot of influencers are there that are just
actually really business savvy and they're using a platform like
a storefront. But I do think that when we put
a economic value on attention seeking, that was a point
where it started sort of blowing up a little. And
then you throw in there even other societal moments like
unscripted television, like reality to television, where anybody who could
(09:39):
act a fool could act a fool for ten episodes
and get a lot of attention and maybe in some
cases turn it into a cottage industry for themselves. So
we went into this era where attention and validation seeking
started becoming really, really profitable. And not all attention seeking
people are narcissistic, not by a long shot. There's some
(09:59):
attend and seeking people out the who actually are pretty empathic.
That empathy piece is really important. So I don't want
a person to be listening to this and saying, well,
I post selfies all the time, but they're like, but
I'm you know, I actually really care about my friends
and I listened to them and I'm present with them,
and their friends agree with that, and their family agrees
with that, and they have healthy, committed relationships, and then
(10:20):
then great, good for you. It's that intimacy, empathy, depth,
self regulation. You don't rage at people. That's the stuff
that we're looking for for healthy. You want to post selfies,
you do you. You just got to keep that empathy
piece straight. Okay, so we've heard the word narcissism. Okay,
Dr Rominey. What is empathy? So, empathy is the the
(10:44):
willingness and the capacity to understand and be present with
another person's emotional state or experience. That's a real fancy
way of saying I feel you and really feel them.
Like so, in other words, if you if a friend
of mine is having a bad day, I slow down
and say, how can I be here for you? How
(11:06):
can I help you? Rather than you know what, this
whole emotion thing is just not working for me. Like
I'm supposed to be going out, It's like supposed to
be my day. You know, none of that, like you
really are able to be present with another person, to
be self aware. You know, Let's say your friend is
struggling financially, maybe this isn't the day to walk and say,
look at my new ten dollar handdug. You know that
(11:27):
lack of self awareness shows a lack of empathy, saying
hurtful things, you know, saying things without a filter, and
people saying, well, that's just me. I don't have a filter,
then you don't have empathy, you know. So, like all
these things that we sometimes give a free pass to,
empathy is that awareness of how our behavior affects someone
else and being appropriately present with someone else's experience and
(11:50):
not making it about us. So what I'm hearing you
say is that we throw the word narcissism around so much,
but snap that everyone is a narcissist, which you could
be for sure narcissists. If you like empathy, that's a
big part of it. But you still have to every
other stuff. You see, Narcissism is like a laundry list
of stuff. What is a few lack of empathy or
(12:14):
inconsistent empathy or allsometh the entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, attention seeking,
having trouble regulating emotions when they feel criticized, you know,
being really thin skinned and being really reactive, envying other people,
are believing other people envy you, being very egocentric, believing
(12:37):
everything is about you or everything should be about you.
That's the kind of stuff that makes up narcissism. It's
also the lack of interest in other people's experience, so
as a result, you're not able to maintain long term, sustained,
deep close relationships. Everything is pretty superficial. It is about
being really superficial, being very vague, only caring about how
(13:01):
things look, how things appear, rather than really going in
deep in terms of how they really are, and cultivating
a depth and not caring how how it looks to
the world, but actually going deep and ultimately narcissistic people
are actually quite insecure, but they're not in touch with that.
So we look for all that laundry list of things
I'm showing, So any one of those things by itself
(13:22):
doesn't make a person narcissistic. You kind of need the
whole list, you guys. That's why it's so important to
make sure that you have a licensed a doctor. Clinical
psychologists like Dr Romney, who can properly diagnose you, or
if you and your partner want to go for counseling,
(13:44):
have someone license. Because even there are a few things
that she said, either I heard myself or what someone
has said of me in the past, or I'm thinking
about people that I know, and then doctor, I feel like,
I'm like, but I'm hearing an anxiety in some of that. Oh, absolutely,
And I think that's really astute observation. Michelle. You know
(14:06):
one thing, One thing I want to say is that
I wouldn't use the word diagnose and narcissism in the
same sentence. Narcissist personality style. Okay, so let me give
you examples of other personality styles. Other personality styles include
being having an agreeable personality style, having a neurotic personality style,
having an introverted personality style. Those are personality styles too,
(14:29):
and we'd never say anyone was being diagnosed with agreeable nous.
Narcissism is just on that list. Now, Narcissism could easily
be argued to be a more maladaptive personality style. It's
also a more rigid personality style. So some personality styles
there's a little bit more room for flexibility or by definition,
they're more flexible. Agreeable people for example, are very flexible.
(14:52):
They're they're willing to kind of go with the flow.
They do have a lot of empathy. It's a very
pro social kind of personality style. Introversion is an interesting
one because a lot of folks out there are introverted,
but our society doesn't value that. Right, It's not a
bad thing to be introverted. I'm actually really really introverted.
But you know, in an extroversion oriented economy where people
(15:12):
have to be big and have to be out there
and have to be this and have to want to
be with people and network and all that stuff, it's
hard for harder for introverted people, right. I have to say, though,
changes in our economy around tech and things like that,
if a person can sit down and write or write
code or think about things in that way, you can
do that in an introverted way. Wasn't always the case.
So narcissisms of personality style. So we're not diagnosing anyone
(15:36):
with anything, but you've got to know what the personality
style is made up of. It's not just one thing.
Just because someone is a jerk doesn't mean they're a narcissist.
Just because someone angered you doesn't make them a narcissist.
Just because somebody cheated on you in a relationship doesn't
make them a narcissist. You've gotta have that whole list.
But you raised a really really important point we don't
(15:58):
talk about enough, which is that list you gave me.
That sounds like anxiety. It certainly is, And what we
miss is that people with narcissistic personalities can actually be
quite anxious. They're anxious at losing validation, they're anxious at
losing attention. They're anxious that they're going to get in
some ways, not that they're going to found get found out,
(16:19):
because they're not even in touch with the insecure part
of themselves. It's very unconscious, but it's almost like anxious
that they're gonna miss out. They're like going to live
in a chronic fear of missing out there. They're anxious
that they're very thin skinned that they're anxious they'll be criticized.
They're anxious that they'll get passed over, they're anxious that
they'll get abandoned. You know. So there's a lot of
(16:39):
anxiety about am I gonna lose all this external stuff
that I need. So narcissistic people oftentimes have some trouble
being alone because if they're alone, they may not be
being validated. So they always when's the party? What are
we going now? What do we do with other people?
Now that's not to say, oh, there's a subset of
narcissistic people who are more introverted and and they're what
(17:01):
we call vulnerable narcissistic people. But anxiety does cut across narcissism.
And we think that they're so braggy, so arrogant, so
SHOWOFFI so dominant, How could they be anxious? It seems
like they're making everyone else anxious. They are, But a
lot of what is fueling that is insecurity, and what
fuels insecurity goes along with insecurity is anxiety. This has
(17:26):
been a master class, right and we see courses being
sold for thousands of dollars to sit with professionals, and
here we have this broken down for us right here.
I've been sitting here in so much add of this
revelation that you're giving us, and my heart is actually
(17:52):
breaking for a narcissist. I mean, I think here's where
it gets tricky as a human being, um as a
person who has empathy. As a psychologist, I fully agree
with you because I have to tell you it's a
rough way to go through life, because, in essence, you
always need the feedback of other people. You're always thinking
(18:15):
everything is a threat. You're always thinking that there's going
to be a fight, there is this you know, You're
never comfortable, You're always malcontented, nothing is ever good enough.
That's a terrible way to go through life. I agree
with you now. That said, and here's where it gets tricky.
A lot of folks who get into relationships with people
with these personality styles feel that way too. I kind
(18:37):
of feel bad for them. I can see why this happened.
They've kind of had a rough start in their life.
They're not the you know. I can see why they're
so reactive. They had a rough dad, that rough mom,
they had, These bad things happened, they grew up in
a tough way. I'd be reactive too, So maybe I
just need to be kinder to them. Multiple things can
be true at the same time, so that narcissistic person
(18:59):
can have that backstory. We can feel bad for their
plight and how difficult it is to go through life
that way. However, anybody sort of sacrificing their life and
continuing to take the psychological blows just to stay in
the relationship because you feel bad for them isn't doing
anyone any favors. So at some level I tell survivors
(19:21):
I work with you know, you can work on that
compassion for them peace once you set the boundary and
get far enough away that you're safe. It's unfortunate that
sometimes you can go through such a horrific relationship that
you learn to set boundaries after the fact. Oh absolutely,
because I think when people are in it, it's exactly
that I feel for them. It's wrong to walk away
(19:44):
from somebody. Maybe I should turn the other cheek. Maybe
I should give them a second chance, maybe I should
forgive all of those states second chances. Forgiveness are really predicated.
They're based on the idea that when you do that,
the person's behavior changes, if the behaviors. Since behavior doesn't change,
then that's really going to be harmful to the person
who keeps handing out forgiveness, and then there's no behavioral
(20:07):
change and they're continuing to endure the abuse. Because as
difficult it is to have this personality, I gotta tell you,
I think it's probably more difficult to be on the
receiving end of it, got it, Especially when the person
on the receiving end they are feelers. I don't know
if it's rare that to narcissistic people actually get in
a relationship. It's more so the narcissist and the person
(20:27):
that actually is a sponge they feel they Right now,
you are the host of your own podcast, Navigating Narcissism,
and you speak to survivors of narcissistic relationships. Now, people,
when we think of relationships, maybe when we think of
a narcissist, we automatically think of a romantic intimate relationship.
(20:49):
But some people, like friends, you can maybe cut off
who seem to be narcissistic or the word we gotta
unpack this toxic relationship. But what about a narcissistic parent
who you just get necessarily cut out of your life?
What do you do? Well, it's a great question, and
you know, first of all, thanks for talking about the podcast.
(21:10):
We break down every kind of relationship, so what we
kind of remember is so much of what's out there.
Will often say, well, if you're in a narcissistic relationship,
you just gotta leave, and that's just not an option
in practice, I don't even think it's an option. And
necessarily every intimate or romantic relationship you may have children together,
there may be financial issues, cultural, religious issues. So I
(21:31):
I would guess about fifty percent of people in narcissistic
even like adult you know, again, intimate close relationships stay.
But going to the idea of a parent right, because
that's when it gets really complicated, because I almost think
you get sort of twice the pain there. Not only
did they shape your development by being a narcissistic parent,
which is an incredibly painful experience, it leaves a child
(21:54):
feeling very invalidated on seen, on heard. It shaped your identity.
It often leaves a child with a painful legacy of
feeling like they're not enough going into adulthood. Now you
have to have an ongoing relationship with them in adulthood,
where the narcissistic parent that's going to continue to manipulate
and invalidate and do all the things they do. But
I completely agree with you. For a lot of people,
(22:16):
the idea of fully cutting off a parent doesn't feel
like an option. They may still feel connected to their
other parent, they may feel connected to other family members,
it may be a violation of their cultural practices. Whatever
it may be, nobody has to give a reason for
wanting to stay in touch with the narcissistic person. But
it's a world of hurt because each time you roll
(22:38):
up to that narcissistic parent, they're going to continue to
be their manipulative, mean spirit itself. So a lot of
the work that I do with survivors and talk about
and write about and teach about is how do we
teach people to be with people with these personalities, including
if it's a narcissistic parent, not having to cut them
out without harming yourself. And that's things like having realistic
(23:01):
expectations and the hardest realistic expectation. And it all drives
into something called radical acceptance, which is this idea is
that narcissism really doesn't change. What you see is what
you get. They are not going to change. They are
not going to wake up one day and be an
empathic sweetheart. You're never gonna get that moment when they
roll up to you and say, you know what, I
am so sorry I didn't see all of you. I
(23:23):
love you. I now I fully see you you're more
than enough and it's never gonna happen, And if you
waste your life waiting for it, you waste your life.
But once you understand that this is the bad hand
I was dealt, I got a narcissistic parent. Listen that
everyone hits a black jack in the casino. Some people
just get bad hand. And getting this narcissistic parent was
(23:44):
part of your bad hand, and you play the hand.
And that might mean boundaries that for some people, though, Michelle.
For some people, and I know thousands and thousands of
people who fully cut off from their narcissistic parents, they
simply do not talk to them anymore. They cut them off.
They're like, no more, they're dead to me. I don't
want tom at my wedding. They're not going to meet
my kids. I don't want nothing. So there are many, many,
(24:07):
many people who do that, and there's many, many, many
people who don't. But to go in there thinking maybe
if I do it this maybe way, Maybe if I
say it this way, Maybe if I throw them a
great birthday party, maybe if I remember this, maybe if
I do Christmas just the way they want, or maybe
if we do that, there's nothing in the world you
can do to change them or bring them around, and
(24:29):
if you can get it's for some people, just getting
permission to just stop trying means that though I can't,
I roll up to Sunday dinner, but not every week.
I go once a month. You know. I make up
myself a promise we'll go. I'll go to the family wedding.
But as soon as that parents says three nasty things
to me, I'm out. You know, like, they very very
clear on their boundaries and they set them back. I'm
(24:52):
not leaving them alone with my kids because I don't
believe that they can be with them and be kind
and not be manipulative. So it becomes about no wing
they can't change, and no longer investing yourself in this
idea that if I do this, this or this, then
everything's going to be fine. This is so good. Boundaries
can also be enforced with family. They can be, but
(25:15):
they're tricky. So what I I think what gets challenging
is we use the word boundaries and we're like, oh,
that's just had a boundary. Good luck with that with
the narcissistic person. You know what I'm saying, like, that's
probably not gonna work. Out for you. So when I
say boundary, I almost You've got to remember that boundaries
aren't just what you do with another person. Boundaries are
an inside game right there. What you say, what I
(25:36):
what you say to yourself? I am not tolerating this,
And I work with folks. I talk about something called
a true north. I say, you know what, you might
be able to tolerate them talking all kinds of nonsense
and behaving like a fool, But what you may not
be willing to tolerate is them saying anything about your child.
For example, some people say the minute they say something racist,
I'm out. You know, like whatever the discourse that this
(25:59):
narci assistic person engages in, you gotta remember to narcissistic
people bait. They like the fight. They love the fight.
So they all start poking at you to get a
rise out of you. And so I work with clients
as they get out when the baiting starts, because they're
looking for a fight, and you know you can't win
at that fight. You know how the old saying goes.
You know, if you, you know, get in the mud
with a pig, you get dirty, and the pig likes it.
(26:21):
It's the same thing here, you get into an argument
with a narcissist, you're going to get hurt, and the
narcissistic person likes it. So once they start baiting you,
that's a great place to say, you know, I gotta
go now. A lot of times the narcissistic person says, oh,
I guess you can't take it. Huh, And you have
to be able to endure again that ongoing baiting and
saying you know what, I gotta go. This doesn't feel good.
(26:42):
Oh would you talk to your therapist? Your therapists tell
you to say that. I mean, I'm not this is
what I'm saying. We can talk about those boundaries, but
I'm not playing like this hurts. And so when boundaries
are very interior to us and to recognize, they need
that fight from you because if they can bring you
down to that kind of contentious level, you get upset
(27:02):
and then they can dominate. So that's why I say
to people, you set those interior boundaries. So it's not
as simple as I'm not going to come, because then
it's guilt. Oh, I guess you don't care about your family?
Do you know how much we gave up for you
and now you don't show up. You're that upity. I
guess you're ungrateful. Who's the one who's the narcissist? You
see what I'm saying. So it's not that simple. And
(27:22):
the grief and the guilt and even the shame that
can be induced by trying to set a boundary with
a narcissistic person, because it can be so manipulative for
some people, they say, you know what, I might just
keep going along. But the problem is if you keep
going along, then you're in the face of this sort
of unempathic, unkind invalidating relationship. So it's almost like you
(27:43):
can't win either way. Book Mark this part, Guys, listen
to it over and over. She has unpacked so much
just on about being in a relationship, maybe with the
parent or sibling, whatever, but maybe more so apparent because
you might not feel bad for cutting off a sibling,
(28:05):
but a parent, it's like they've given you life, so
you must. In some cultures, you must show up for
that parent, be there, no matter how evil they are.
And what's even worse than Michelle is on top of that.
So I'll say to people, if only you know your
story and the radical acceptance piece works, whether you leave
(28:28):
the relationship, or you stay in the relationship, but to
wait for the narcissistic parent to change or behave in
a way that is respectful or that is not manipulative
or anything like that. It's waiting for a bus that's
never gonna come. But the other challenge is that people
often be pressured to forgive. Okay, so your mother, your father,
they said, these pair travel things. Can't you forgive? Can't
(28:49):
you forgive? The answer to that is no, Because I
am really really tired of survivors being continually asked, please forgive, forgive, forgive.
They've been through a lot, forgive. They don't really mean it. Forgive.
They were young, forgive, they weren't thinking forgive. Why the
forgiveness is a gift for the narcissists? What the heck
is it doing for you? And I'm really tired of
survivors having to face down to this. There's somehow bad
(29:12):
if they don't forgive. Some survivors get to forgiveness. And
usually the way survivors get to forgiveness is when they
finally get the time, the help, and the support they
need to feel whole again. Then they have so mentally
clearly differentiated themselves from that narcissistic person and say, you know,
I am able to forgive because in some ways I
(29:32):
no longer care. And that's usually when we get to
the forgiveness point. But when a person is continually going
at you and then you forgive and they do it again,
and you forgive and they do it again, that is
almost the definition of masochism. That's so good, Yeah, heard it.
The person is probably not going to change, so there
is no cure for this behavior. There's no cure. But
(29:57):
I'm wondering, say, if a narcissist loses it all all
mean their possessions, a parent, a job, do you think
that they're like, oh my gosh, I see what you
all have been saying all along. Do most have a
come to God a moment? So that's a great question.
I think a lot of people hope for that. So
here's here's the trick. That's a pretty extreme moment, like
(30:18):
to lose everything moment. We could call it rock bottom, right,
rock bottom looks different for everyone. For some people may
not be losing everything. It might be losing their family,
like they get divorced, or they lose their public reputation.
It could be losing their money, whatever it is, Okay,
everyone's rock bottom looks different. And let's say a narcissistic
person hits rock bottom, it's going to go in one
(30:39):
of two directions for them. For a very very very
very small group of people who are the unicorns, it
becomes the wake up call. They're like, what have I done?
And they actually whether they do it through spiritual work,
whether they do it through therapeutic work, whatever it is
they do, whatever journey they take, they take accountability and
(31:02):
say wow, and that it's a unicorn though that June
and people should not be waiting for that. In the
vast majority of cases, when that happens, people feel like
they're a victim. Everyone was out to get them. Why
was life so unfair to me? You know it? This
is a which hunt, I have a target on my
back list, goes on and on and on of how
(31:25):
they shift blame. I'm taking the blame for someone else's
bad behavior, you know, victim victim, victim victim, And so
that's what we tend to see more often, and if anything,
it can often enrage a person with a personality style
like this even more. But for some people it can
be a turnaround. But it is the nature of the
(31:45):
narcissistic personality is that it is very very rigid, you know,
so it's not really open to change. Let me put
it this way. You have a personality, Michelle, I have
a personality. Okay. I couldn't change mind very easily. So
if tomorrow some but he said to me, Romney, I
want you to be an entitled b word. I want
you to be in an entitled horrible woman. And I
(32:06):
want you to march down to Trader Joe's and then say,
you know, hey, I need to speak to your manager.
Why are you making me stand in line? And then
I want you to sort of when your friend, your friend,
your sister calls you with her stuff, saying, you know what,
I don't have time for this right now. Like I
need you to not have empathy. I want you to
behave in a way that's more entitled. I want you
to start posting everything you do on social media. I
(32:28):
couldn't do it. I simply couldn't. I couldn't change my personality.
I am who I am, you know, and good bad
and seem like don't play, you know, I don't. And
if somebody said to me, you know, you're so interverted. Romney,
come to this big party, and I would say, do
I have to? Yes, you do, because we're gonna change
your personality. And inside of an hour, I would be
in the corner. I would be um trying to get out,
(32:51):
and when I went home, I would collapse into bed
from exhaustion. And so that's my point is that I
could take it for an hour, maybe even two, but
I know who I am. You know who you are, right,
and so we can't change our personalities. Why would we
expect that a narcissistic person could Okay, oh this is
(33:11):
so so good. So we've talked about the surface relationship
with the narcissists. Maybe it's a friend or a parent.
What about in a romantic relationship, are there signs in
the beginning that might go amiss in the beginning of
a narcissistic relationship. And here's where it gets tricky, Michelle.
We wanted to be so intuitive. There's always red flags,
(33:32):
you can always tell by the third day. And I
was just talking to a woman the other day and
she was in one of a relationship with a really really,
really bad narcissistic guy, and not until he did something
so terrible, like really betrayed her in like twenty different ways.
Did she ever know anything was wrong? By then? It
was like a disaster. But she said, up until the
(33:52):
day that all the betrayals got found out, she said,
I had no idea. I didn't see one single red flag.
And everyone around her says, we agree. It's not like
we're all like you ought to run way. You didn't
see it. And when she told me about the relationship,
I couldn't see one either. So not every narcissistic relationship
has red flags, and I think that's important to note
now that said most do, and so this stuff will often,
(34:14):
not always, but often show up early on. It could
be somebody who is not a great listener, or they
may be a great listener for like a minute, like
four weeks, six weeks, and then it'll pull back. They
may be someone who is inconsistent, so they'll be so
into you and up in your grill and like, I'm
crazy about you. I can't get a good moaning. Princess ganak, Princess,
(34:35):
You're my queen. I love you, I love you, I
love you, and then just as you're relaxing into it,
they pull away and you're like where's good morning, princess,
Like what's and you're staring at your phone and you're distracting,
you can't get anything done. And then when they roll
back in, a person's often so relieved that their love
stories back that they're now willing to put up with
more bad behavior. So it's really an indoctrination process, and
(34:58):
narcissistic people are really really it at that. Narcissistic relationships
moved too fast. Not always, but many times it's like, hey,
let's move in, and I'm like, um, yeah no. So
they move in too fast, they get engaged too fast,
they get married too fast, fast fast. They even do
things that are too intense, like hey, let's go on
(35:18):
a vacation ten thousand miles way, like you get you
should not need a passport in the first six weeks
of your relationship, okay, like you should not be taken.
I mean I think, slow your role and like get
to know this person in a very normalized way, because
if you're being dazzled I don't know about the Eiffel
Tower or something like that, you're missing the other stuff.
(35:38):
Narcissistic people aren't good at real life. They're not good
at folding sheets and doing the laundry, and traffic and
things not often being like exciting and you know all that.
So I think those early weeks and months aren't always indicative,
but they can be. And when you notice, it's like
really great, and then they pull away really great, and
they pull away and you feel like you're on this
(36:00):
you're sort of a chase. That's a bad sign, a
bad sign. So I met you three weeks ago and
we're already going, like you said, to the maldive, someplace
far away. Could that be love bombing? That is love bombing?
I mean that's the narcissist, you know, signature move that
love bombing is that intense overwhelming interest, attention, sometimes money,
(36:24):
sometimes experiences. But while it's happening, things are often moving
so quick or you're sort of almost so thrown off,
you missed the red flags. Okay, okay, So is it
a such thing like if this is too good to
be true? It is? I mean sometimes because I think
that what let's say, a person's in a relationship that's
moving too fast, right, yes, for weeks and five weeks
(36:46):
and moving to my place, moving I have a big place.
I don't want to keep coming and moving to my
place and you say, you know what, this is moving
a little quick for me. I really like you, but
I also like where I live. I like having my rhythms. Ah,
I guess you're just not that committed to this, you know.
I guess you you're just not that into it. I
thought you said you're looking for something committed. But okay,
that's cool. I get it. You and I are don't
(37:07):
want the same thing. Now you're into this person, so
you're like, whoa, No, I'm really into you. Okay, okay,
all right, okay, you know what, we'll try it out.
I'll come move some of my stuff in. Boom done.
I felt it as if like I'm in these shoes
because you are right, like you said, No, you are right.
(37:29):
I am into you. It's not that okay, Well like you,
and you did it succinctly of the steps a person
would innocently do, like Okay, I'll take a duffel bag
and just put it in the closet. Before you know it,
you've given up your lease. And then once they have
you where you want you they want you, that's when
(37:49):
things can start getting real cold, real fast, and drop
you like a happitade and start or devalue you. Yeah,
devalue you, and now you're stuck. You know how hard
it is to find a place to live in and
you had a place and you get You know what
I'm saying like it's and I know I'm not even
making light of it. We're living in times when things
like rents and stuff are really important. And so when
a person gives up their place and they make that
(38:10):
kind of an arrangement with someone, and now this person
is devaluing them. It's this idea of sort of cognitive dissonance. Well,
and now I live with them, I have to make
it work. So you start justifying their behavior. This is
so good, so good that I could talk to you
another hour, but I know you've got stuff to do,
(38:31):
but I'm so happy you know. Your books an incredible author,
your podcast as well, called Navigating Narcissism. You are the
founder and CEO of Luna Education, which is a training
and consulting company where you focus on educating businesses on
the impact of narcissism on health. We even seeing more
(38:52):
articles lately about CEOs and successful executives with narcissism. Are
there signs of a narcissist boss, and then how can
one culpe while working for one? So narcissistic boss is
gonna have all the same signs of any narcissist and're
not gonna have empathy, entitlement, all that. Okay, So it's
not limited to relationships all that. So it's going to
(39:14):
show up differently at work. Certainly, it's gonna be things
like they play favorites, they take credit for your work.
They're constantly changing the rules. They will love bomb you
to get a deadline met, and then you may not
always get what you were promised. They will future fake you. Yeah,
we're gonna move to these new headquarters and data and
then you're as long as everyone does all their work,
then I promise you this, and I promise you that,
(39:35):
but none of it's on paper. And they're like, oh, great,
we made the deadline. But yeah, no, I'm not gonna
do that. And so there's an inconsistency, there's a grandiosity.
They make these big, big promises and nothing ever, none
of it ever comes to fruition. And meanwhile the company
may be harmed. They're very manipulative, They triangulate, they turn
people against each other. These are often very gossipy workplaces.
(39:58):
They can even be harassment filled workplaces. These can be
workplaces toxic bosses will often put people to hazing rituals,
like you feel like you have to earn, you know,
your place in the workplace, but by doing things that
are really abusive or inappropriate or toxic as it were.
And so it's very real and we can't underestimate for
some people because we spend so many hours at work,
(40:19):
having a toxic boss can really result in significant mental
health impacts, physical health impacts, um and very real world
impacts because it's your job, and especially if it's a
job you've been at for a long time. It's the
kind of job where you have great benefits, and leaving
such a job means you'll lose like time serves, you know,
towards a pension or something like that. You know, people
might find themselves stuck in it. But it also could
(40:41):
mean that it really sort of shelves a lot of
your professional aspiration, Like you've come to find out this
person is not going to help help you get advanced.
There actually keep stealing your stuff or holding you back,
or might even be speaking badly about you. Two others,
So this can actually do a lot of toll, put
a lot of toll on people, and I think a
lot of well, I'm going to be the exception that
(41:02):
I'll I'll learn from this person, but I won't let
them get to me. I mean, if you're if you're
a normal, healthy human being, a toxic, narcissistic boss is
going to get to you, is going to get to you.
So like you know, so we said that you know
to set some internal type boundaries of what you will
not put up with. But can you do that at
work with the boss? I'm not gonna put up with
(41:23):
this boss. Yeah, I mean, you're apps. That's a great question, Michelle.
It's it's different, right, It's different what you can do
at work. So you're right, it's not like I'm not
going to show up because I'm setting a boundary when
we might get fired. However, you document the hell out
of what happens in those workplaces, like you say, every email,
every communication, when you know you're gonna need to meet
(41:45):
with them when possible, you asked that a third party
be available. When it's done, you keep summary notes, and
sometimes you even send those summary notes back to the
boss and say, hey, I just wanted to send you
a summary of what we talked about in today's meeting
for no other reason but to set a paper trail.
Is they made have promised something say okay, I was
very clear that if we meet the third quarter sales
(42:05):
total for this amount of money, then that means in
the fourth quarter we're going to be able to expect
for a new work stay so and then then if
that person receives it, then there's it's almost like it's
not perfect. It's not a contract. But if a person
needs to go to human resources or bring on a
labor attorney or something. I'm not saying it's easy because
there's no rule or law against being narcissistic. So you
(42:27):
really do need to show if you have a toxic
boss that what they did actually harmed you in the workplace,
like it resulted in a loss of salary or a
loss of status or a demotion. So it's a little
bit tricky in that space, but it can be things
where you know, if they say, well we need you
to stay later, say okay, well what will that Will
it be compensation? And can I you know, can you
(42:47):
can we just drop that down? The toxic boss is
gonna get mad if you say those kinds of things
because they feel entitled to your time. But it's about
taking notes, keeping really clear records, saving every voicemail, text message, email,
you name it if you need it. If it's a
large company, you may ask to be sort of moved
to another division or something like that. So there's different
(43:09):
ways you can sort of work in these systems, but
it's not easy. And um if they ask inappropriate things
like hey, we can just meet for at a at
a hotel for drinks, Like that's not what I mean.
I know people say, who in the industry, that's how
people meet. I think we've learned now from what's happened
in the industry that no, I actually think a better
place for people to meet is in our conference room
(43:29):
at a normal time of day and or in a
zoom or something like that. So it's really setting some
of those boundaries in terms of you know, they they
in some ways what narcissistic people do is they can
advantage a situation by having people a little off kilter,
out of familiar routines, familiar spaces, and they really run
with that, and they do they really they play fast
(43:50):
and loose with boundaries and appropriateness. But and I'm gonna
tell you, Michelle, I've consulted with so many people in
these narcissistic workplace situations. If ever there was a time
to cut it, cut people out, it's this because it's
not family. It's not a marriage with children, it's not
your adult child or something like that. This is a
virtual stranger who you wouldn't know unless you work with them.
(44:12):
And so when when it becomes very clear that you're
not going to get organizational support and that working with
this person takes a toll on you, getting out is
often that they find another job. I hate to say,
there's not that workplace stuff is actually some of the
most challenging because there's almost so little too you can do. Yeah,
you can take it to court, but that could you
(44:32):
could lose years and a lot of money, you know,
paying for the paying the legal fees. Yeah, and they're
going to make sure you lose. They're not gonna make
sure you're gonna lose. If it's a corporation, they're going
to bury you. You know, they're going to bury you
in paperwork, They're going to try to make you look bad.
They're going to subpaint in your therapy records. I mean,
it gets they get ugly with you, and so for
(44:53):
many people, you know, it's it's tragic, you know, when
you have to say, I don't have a choice. There's
this is not sustainable. I've been in that situation my
stelf and I and I'll never I've never looked back
and changed the course of my career, but I'll never
be mad I left. But had I stayed, it would
have been a disaster. But it really changed what my
career would have looked like. So I'm not saying this
happens easy, but I think that there is a point
(45:15):
where if, especially if the system supports the narcissistic boss,
and it's something I call the golden Goose phenomenon, If
that boss of yours is a producer within that organization.
When I say a producer, they create a lot of profit,
they've brought a lot of like they they're doing what
the company needs that, they're making money, they're bringing notoriety,
whatever it may be. Then the higher ups in that
(45:36):
organization may actually support your boss because your boss is
making the money. I can promise you this, they ain't
gonna fight for you. I feel like I know someone
going through something. I think we all do either if
we haven't gone through ourselves, we all know someone's going
through this. Absolutely, are you taking interns? I'm like, I
feel like I just want to sit at your feet
(45:57):
and just I am not, but I'm actually know I
have the privilege of now through the company I've I've established,
I'm working with another company, um that that provides therapist
training tools. So I'm working with them to develop a
lengthy therapist training program on how to work with people
who have experienced narcissistic abuse. So I'm working on that
(46:18):
so therapists have a better understanding of this and can
get sort of certified and how to do this work.
So we're hoping to begin launching that in and I
have up the podcasts where you can learn more about
hearing other people's stories and for people who are trying
to heal from narcissistic abuse. You know, again, therapy is
not cheap or free, and it's not always accessible. And
(46:39):
so as sort of an addition or something to round
up round out what people may not be able to
get in therapy or to add to their existing therapy,
I have a subscription healing program and if people pay
a monthly fee. Then they get a monthly workshop and
a question answers session. There's journal prompts, there's guided meditations,
there's curricular stuff and so and there's a community. There's
(47:00):
a moderated community of only the people there. It's not
social media, only the people in the program. And we
moderated it throughout the day, so if there's any kind
of exchange is happening that we're not comfortable with, we
shut it down. So it's not like social media kind
of stuff. And so it's a place of support for people.
And so that's something that we're also you know, we've
been building up. We talked about a lot of topics
(47:22):
relevant to healing and where can we find that. You
can find all if you go to my website which
is Dr Romney dot com. You can find everything there.
The healing program that you can get, the podcast that
I heart, or anywhere else that you when people subscribe
or get their podcasts um you can. You can get
my books anywhere you buy books. So I have those
(47:45):
as well, and I have a new book that will
be coming out in three specifically on healing, so for
people who want that to sit down with that. So
it's um, yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I'm trying
to keep as much of this, not only training therapists,
but teaching people how to push back on this and
so they don't blame themselves and for us to retain compassion.
This isn't about saying, oh, there are people are not
(48:06):
to stick, are bad, run away, But it's more like
to say you can retain compassions. I think we have
to for human beings. It's essential. However, you also don't
need to be someone's punching back. And on that note,
Dr Romeny, who you have just I want to say,
blessed us today and I know with folks listening, you
(48:29):
have been enlightened. I know you've been awakened to some
things and so take the necessary moves that you need
to make you deserve it. Dr Romeny, thank you so
so much, y'all again her own podcast Navigating Narcissism. She's
got an amazing book and um, don't you know who
I am how to stay sane in the air of narcissism,
(48:51):
entitlement and incivility, and her website repeated Dr Romeny dot com.
I think y'all should get into that course um and
that healing portal that she has as well. So thank
you for being with us, Michelle, I appreciate you so much.
Thank you for for what you are an advocate in
the space we need as many as possible. Yes, ma'am,
thank you for your gifts as well. Okay, y'all, this
(49:16):
is another interview that has left me with my jaw
on the floor. I gotta bring her back because I
wanted to get into questions of females and narcissism. I
want to unpack that a little more. I want to
unpack more about relational narcissism. It's such a layered conversation.
It definitely requires more than one conversation. She is absolutely incredible.
(49:41):
You can tell she don't play. You could tell she
might have a little experience somewhere as it relates to
this topic personally of narcissism. I was more so intrigued
listening to her talk about, you know, making sure we're
not labeling people or misdiagnosing people as being a nar
our sisters versus. Okay, listen, a person could just be
(50:02):
having a bad day. We can't label their entire existence,
or we can't label you know, you had a bad
experience with them. It don't mean that they're narcissists. Maybe
they just weren't for you, right, And that's okay. And
guess what some people are. It is what it is, right.
This is absolutely profound. Hopefully you were able to take
(50:22):
some notes. You might have to listen to this episode
again to really jrot some notes down. But I'm thankful
for y'all. I'm so thankful for y'all listening. I cannot
wait to continue to explore what more we can do
with Checking In. If you don't have my book, go
to checking in book dot com to secure your copy
(50:44):
to continue to learn more about my story and journey.
If you're curious, if you don't know how I've come
to be where I am and how I've even come
to this point in having a podcast by the same
title of checking In, I appreciate your love. I appreciate
your support and know that you are loved. Checking In
(51:35):
with Michelle Williams is a production of I Heart Radio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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