May 23, 2023 • 41 mins
Michelle and Dr. Brown are helping you get out! Dr. Shanita Brown shares her thoughts on domestic violence, not only as a licensed professional counselor but as a domestic violence survivor herself. She also discusses the red flags (and the green flags) in relationships and shares ways to empower yourself and safely escape an abusive relationship. CHECK IN to this episode to be reminded that you are not alone!
For more about Dr. Shanita Brown, visit: https://www.drshanitabrown.com/
Follow Dr. Brown on social media!
Instagram: @drshanitabrown
Twitter: @drsbrown
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Instagram: @MichelleWilliams
Twitter: @RealMichelleW
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Domestic violence is a problem. It has been a problem
for years and to some people, you've definitely experienced a
form of domestic violence or you've witnessed it, and I
(00:39):
just want you to know that you are loved and
you have value. This episode could possibly be triggering, as
this is going to be the topic of discussion with
a licensed expert in this area who also experienceperience domestic
(01:01):
violence in college. Her name is doctor Shanita Brown, and
I am so glad that we have her with us
today and this is a safe space. But if you
feel like it could be a little too much for
you for this episode, do not feel pressured to listen
or if you want to.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Grab a friend.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And listen together and process and whatever it is that
you have to do. But again, Michelle, everybody at Black Effect,
everybody that helps Checking In this podcast to be what
it is. We want you to know that we love you,
we see you, and you have so much value.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Hey, everybody, this is another another amazing week of checking in.
This episode is probably going to be definitely all my
episodes are serious, but I do want to put a disclaimer.
What we are going to be discussing could definitely be triggering.
So I just want to ensure that you are in
a safe space as we will be talking about domestic violence,
(02:11):
sexual assault. I just want to make sure that you
are in a safe space or you have some safe
people around you. Should something that you hear in this
episode should be triggering. Our goal is not to trigger anyone,
but to bring awareness, and so that's what we are
going to do today with someone absolutely awesome. She is
(02:32):
a speaker and educator, licensed professional counselor and train or.
Her work has been featured in.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Essence and Forbes, so many amazing platforms, and I'm glad
that she is taking time out to check in. Please welcome,
doctor Shanita Brown.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Thank you for having me. Michelle's an honor to be here.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
You are so so welcome. Where are you checking in from?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I am checking in from Raleigh, North Carolina. Shout out
to North Carolina, originally from Kinston, North Carolina. To go
to two five to two and I love what I do, Michelle,
it isn't working. You mentioned people being triggered, and you
know triggers are an indicator that parts of us where
we need to heal. So I appreciate you having that
(03:21):
disclaimer and talking about something that we need to talk
about every day, not just doing Domestic Violence Awareness Month
or Sexual Assault Awareness Month, but every day because of
the statistics and how so many people are impacted by
domestic and sexual violence.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I don't know about you, but I used to be
ashamed if I felt triggered by something. But now I
just take the power back and say, oh, it's okay. This,
Like you said, this is just showing you an area
that you're healing or you need to impact something, absolutely
getting down to the why, and so to encourage people.
(03:59):
Triggers aren't anything to be ashamed about, right, There's.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Nothing wrong with them. They're messages, they're indicators, and they're
just telling you, hey, look at me, look at alert. Alert.
We can have good triggers too, you know, in my
own healing, and I've talked about in my own experience
with domestic violence, or there were parts of my experience
where I was triggered. I remember who my friends were
that looked out for me, and so there were some
(04:22):
happy moments that even doing something that was so devastating
then trying to find my voice that I have people
in my community and in my network that reminded me
you deserve something better. Yeah, so those are happy triggers.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
M So, as we're discussing domestic violence, you don't have
to go too deep into your own story. Sure, but
I think it's probably it makes people feel safe, heard
or understood when they're like, I don't just have a
practitioner speaking from expertise. Well, you're speaking from real life.
(04:58):
You're not speaking textbook.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Is what I'm into say, absolutely lived experiences here, I
identify as a warrior of domestic violence, not only a survivor,
but I have the lived experience and what that's like
as a black woman as well a woman of faith
in that healing journey. So I come from two perspectives.
You know, a trauma therapist and that's the one who's
had the lived experiences of trying to get out.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Now, you could have went any in any track or
specialty as it relates to your field. Is because of
your experience that you chose.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Hey, I'm going to be in the area of trauma.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
It could be workplace psychology.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Absolutely, I think you know right In my dissertation and
wanting to work with black women, women who were of
women of faith and have had experience with domestic violence.
Black women in general do not have enough resources, and
we experience domessic violence more than any other ethnicity. So
(05:57):
it's important. Yes, forty four percent compared to our white
counterparts and other ethnicities. And so I wanted to be
able to study and go deeper and to be able
to help women get free.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
M I got about two or three questions just in
that nugget that you dropped. First of all, that black
women suffered domestic violence more, because now it's making me
go back to slavery. Was it because that's something that
unfortunately we know all too well from slavery. Right, that
(06:31):
just blows my mind. And second, you talked about women
of faith. How maybe women are just told to stay
in their marriages, stay in that relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
God's gonna work it out. Just keep praying for them. Yeah,
stay and pray. Get on your knees. He's dragging me
on my knees though. Yeah, women are taught to stay
in these you post the women I've taught to keep
the family together, right traditionally thinking about slavery, right, what
the role of women. Domestic violence is a systemic issue, okay,
(07:05):
And so when we were talking about that four hundred
gap in history, it's about power and control. It's literally
when somebody tries to maintain power and control over another
person in a relationship. And a lot of times we
don't know what healthy relationships look like.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
We have a lot of images of how we grew up.
It could be a relational template, it could be what
we're seeing in the media, and so there are a
number of factors. But it is that power and control
that we don't reorganize. Sometimes we think it's love, right,
we have songs and think, oh, he's trying to take myself. Oh,
it's so cute, he's picking out my outfits. But a
lot of that are red flags and we don't know
(07:45):
what some of those signs are of red flags and
green flags, and we think it's love, we think it's excited.
And so, yes, we have to raise awareness about domestic balance.
It's that power and control. It is not a mental illness.
Domestic violence is a choice. I want I want listeners
to understand that a perpetrator or abuser is engaging in
(08:09):
tactics to maintain power and control over someone. They are
choosing to do that.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
I was going to ease into what does it feel like,
what does it look like? But you've already named something,
whereas like girl, he was looking through my phone, he
was trying to figure out who was calling a text
to be honey. He wants to make sure honey that
he is the only one.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
But you're like, it's seem cute, but it could be right,
a red flag, right, so nobody gets nobody shows up
as controlling in the beginning. So during that honeymoon stage
and all love Dovey's like, oh my god, he just
loves me or you know, and want to put this
out there, there are men who experience abuse as well.
(08:51):
So the abusic can be a woman. But statistically, what
we know is that more women experience and we're thinking
about genda, more women experience domesticized on black women. Men
don't report it for a number of reasons. You know,
they're taught how they are socialized, right, how they're socializing.
You know, you have to man up, you have to
be hard. You know, you don't go and tell somebody
(09:12):
that a woman is beating on you or control of you.
You're a punk. You assisted, right, And so they don't
speak up. The number of reasons why man don't speak up,
But you ask, what does it feel like? What does
it look like? Michelle? Is a war zone. You're constantly
on pins and needles, like you're walking on eggshells. You're
(09:35):
for battle. That's what it feels like. You don't even
know that you're in a war zone. You become so
used to that.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I was speaking with someone and they said he was
this was unlike any relationship.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I ever had.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
When I met him, it was love at first sight.
And when he met me, he told me it was
love at first sight. And I'm just wondering these abusers,
I feel like they study you or maybe they'll get
you to be vulnerable and tell you about your past
love life or your past relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
And doctor she needed.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Do they show up as everything you've ever wanted and needed?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well depends up. Yeah, well yeah, because you can be
very vulnerable and it feels good like through trauma bonding, right,
And so you know we think about trauma bonding. Your
your wounds are connected to someone else and so it
feels safe, it feels secure, and it feels good and
in that moment, you don't realize that, Oh he's showering
(10:33):
me all these gifts and he can't wait to see
me again, or I'm the only one who's ever done
this with him, or he's telling me all these things
like love vomit. You don't know what that is. And
you're right. They are doing a lot of things to
speak to the parts of you that are wounded and
not heal. And it feels good and it feels safe,
and it becomes like a drug that getting oss like
(10:56):
I don't want to do that because it just feels
like I can never get out. It feels weird. It's
that neurological, the chemicals that are released when you are
with someone, and they make you feel safe, just like crack, right,
people getting off of drugs, like, oh my god, I
cannot believe. It's like going through withdraws very hard, and
that tends to keep women and survivors in that cycle
(11:21):
because of trauma bonding. Right, It's like, I cannot get
out of this, and while they go back. It takes
seven attempts for a person to successfully leave, because they
left and they go back, or you know, their boyfriend
or the partner may say say something and they put
them back in this honeymoon phase or you know, I
didn't really mean it, or you know, I'm sorry, and
(11:42):
if you would have done this, then I would have
done that way, So they begin to that cycle starts
again and you don't hear that that person just said,
if you wouldn't have done that, then I wouldn't have
done that. For example, there's no accountability.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
What are the ages that this starts as far as
the person who is the abuser.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Well, it can start very early because you know teen
dating violence, right, and so the ages of adolescence, you know,
teen Dating Violence Awareness Month is in February, but that
age range is most at risk for getting into an
abusive relationship. One. They don't know what healthy relationships look like, okay,
(12:26):
and so if you grew up in a home where
you witness abuse, you're more at risk to become an abuser,
and you're more at resk to experience trauma bonding, you're
more at risk to get in an unhealthy relationship. Talksic relationship,
because that's what that became the template for you. Me
(12:46):
and you, we had some dming and some stuff on Instagram,
and y'all, let me tell you that's the power of
social media when it's used in a good way. Absolutely,
how doctor she Needa Brown.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Think she popped up on my Explorer page or maybe
somebody reposted something she said, and I immediately pressed follow
because although she is psychologist, I follow a lot that
maybe their specialty is in narcissism, which a narcissism can
actually inflict, you know, physical pain, or I just find
(13:21):
they specialize in mental health disorders.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Right, But I loved how this is.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Your specialty when you told me the statistics, when you
said one in every.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, one in four women will experience some form of
domestic violence. So intimate partner violence is a number of
term that consists of domestic violence. Is sexual violence, rape,
and sexual assault, right, childhood sexual abuse ninety percent. I
would say ninety five percent of my clients are experiences
various forms of intimate partner violence. They have experienced some
(13:56):
form of abuse, maybe in a childhood and now they're
beginning to see how it shows up in their adulthood life. Right.
And so that one in four women will experience some
form of intimate partner violence is a that's a huge statistic.
Forty four percent of Black women will experience domestic violence,
they are experiencing it, and so we have to really
(14:19):
make sure that we pay attention and talk more about
healthy relationships, more about the green flags, more about the
red flags, so people can get free. You know, so
if we don't want people in these unhealthy relationship because
the impact of that can be lingering, lingering, Michelle, it
can take years for many survivors to get through that.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Do you find that if someone has experienced abuse in
their childhood as an adult, they're more likely to enter
into an abusive relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yes, and it also they're more at rest, yes, But
it depends on how early they receive help. Right, So
if they were if they witnessing their child hood and
they started therapy, or they started recognizing why am I
like this?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Why do I find myself in repeated patterns? If at
some point in their life that they started to have
those questions, perhaps they sought therapy and begin to help
out and you know, kind of work through those relational
patterns and so they don't find themselves and repeated unhealthy
and abusive relationships now, but it starts to manifest later
(15:25):
and a lot of times, no one is going around,
top girl, what are your triggers. We're not talking about
triggers that way. Do you know what your triggers are?
That is not the norm conversation. And so it becomes
later that we begin to witness, like why am I
like this? Why I keep they in the same men
who are abusive, or they may not be physically abusive,
but emotionally abusive. That's just as worse because we are
(15:49):
carrying invisible wounds, these scars that no one can see,
and just chipping away at our self worth and our
self esteem.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
It is very, very layered, you know, Like someone was saying, well,
he told me I was beautiful, and I was trying
to be judgmental, and I say I was when I
said this statement. I said, we shouldn't be okay with
the bare minimum. Yeah, can we know ourselves that were beautiful?
(16:20):
Or I love it when someone tells me I'm beautiful
person i'm dating, Yeah, tell me I'm beautiful, although I
should know it myself. Or he just did things like
I think what I'm trying to get at.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Maybe if you didn't grow.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Up with a father who opened up the door for you,
so when a man does it for the first time,
you're just like Oh my gosh, he opened up the
door for me. I feel like it happens within months. Yeah,
it can't stay the good guy long.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It starts showing up. It would start showing up. It
gradually increases, so you get this overwhelmeding. Oh, they just
want to be with you. Twenty four at seven, they're
giving you all these gifts and I just I've never
it's called love bombing, right, and we don't see that.
So if you've never experienced that, you think that it
just feels good. He's really into me, he's consistent. You
(17:10):
don't recognize that. Too much of that in the beginning
and overbearing of that is a red flag, right. And
then they gradually keep showering you with gifts, and then
they you changed the clue to finding out if that's
love bombing and if there's an indicator of an abuse
or it can change. You start being available and see
(17:32):
what happened, and it'll come up. I'm doing all this
stuff for you, and now you're not available or you
don't want to see me, it'll start coming up. It
will start coming out, Oh, you're changing because I want
to spend time with my friends. I went done this
for you. I did that for you, So now you
almost spend time with me. So could signs be they
isolate you from family and friends? Oh, the isolation. Yes,
(17:56):
that is an indicator.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
And I feel like it almost makes you want to
be careful or what you share with potential partners, because
you could literally what if you're like, man.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
My family just pulls on me all the time.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
And it's like they'll use what you say. And you
told me your family pulls on you all the time.
So I just wanted you to myself. I wanted you
to know what it's like to say yes to you.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yes, absolutely, that's a great example manipulators, manipulation. Oh my goodness,
that gas light. And then you begin to question yourself.
You think you're going crazy, like did this really just happen? Yeah,
it just happened, But that gas light is a form
of psychological abuse where you begin to question your perception
of reality, like this really didn't happen, And so you
(18:41):
end up not trusting yourself. You don't trust your decisions,
You can't trust anything because you're constantly having your mind
that I can't believe what I'm experiencing or question it
if the reality is really what it is because I've
been gas lit so many times and that manipulation. Are
you sure that didn't really happen. That's not what I said.
(19:04):
You're just making that up. It was a different way.
It didn't happen that way. That's not how I remember it.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
And you know, saw some people gaslight and don't even
know it because maybe you've never heard of the term, right,
you know, But I feel like it's almost innate responses. Okay,
So for instance, because I know what the term gaslighting is,
I know what it feels like. Yeah, and so when
I'm having conversations with someone, I could be joking and
(19:30):
be you know how we could be like They'll be
like Sheanita, you know you was snoring in your sleep,
and you be like you all was snoring in my sleep.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
That was just you.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
You was having you was dreaming, you was you was
this so y'all?
Speaker 4 (19:43):
That's that's really It's almost like that you find yourself
doing a playful gaslight. But why is that so innate
in us? When someone calls us to the plate of something,
we say, that's not how I meant it. Yes, that
is how you meant it, right, And that makes us
do that it's gaslighting, a defense mechanism in a person
(20:06):
where maybe they don't.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Mean to, but they are. I think, you know, because
gas lighting is not confined to just domestic violence relationships.
It can happen at the with your physician, It can
happen in many experiences, in many interpersonal interactions. So it
is not only in domestic violence. You know, if you
think about you know, I told my physician A, B
(20:29):
and C and D. You can't know. It wasn't that way.
Like I'm sitting here telling you my experience and you're
questioning what really happened to my body? You got me
thinking I can't trust what I felt. Yes, yep, sometimes,
you know. So it isn't just in DV relationships. It
can be in your day to day interaction with your ball,
so with your siblings and family, and so I don't
(20:52):
think people know that they are potentially causing that harm.
Right now, the word gas light and the word narcissism
is becoming more popular. You've even had people do posts
where they're like, oh my gosh, now everybody wants to
use the term gaslight. Everybody wants to I'm actually glad that.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
The word is becoming popular because now people are going
to be able to be like, no, this is what you.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Are doing to me? Or am I doing that? Absolutely? Yes?
Am I gaslight in somebody? Am I I'm trying to question,
you know, call some doubt and what someone stated to me.
And a lot of times I don't think people are
aware of it. And the way that you can share that,
(21:42):
you know, basically what I just heard. I feel like
you're gas lighting me. Now the person at the other end,
you will hope to say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean
to do that. What would be helpful or so that
I don't do that again. Now, an abuser won't do that,
not at all. They won't take any account of baility. No,
I didn't do that. No, that's just you. You're making
(22:03):
this all up. I didn't say that, So they're not
taking any account of it. It's always your fault. It's
always your fault and a domestic vascillation. It's always a
survivor's fault. That's how they see it. But really it's
not the savibara's fault. It's never the survivor's fault. The
survivor is surviving. Survivors don't create chaos. They don't create
the conflict. They're trying to survive the conflict.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Abuse of any form to anyone listening is never your fault.
I don't care if you custom out five seconds prior.
It does not give anybody the right to harm you
in any kind of way. Now, should I be cussing
nobody up? Probably not, because let's talk about this. I
(22:50):
know we're talking about domestic violence, but sometimes people don't
even know that what you say to somebody is considered
verbal abuse.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yes, and so I want to go back, piggyback to
your point of if even if you cuss them out right.
And so I have a lot of survivors, and I've
worked with many of them, quite a few clients who
have said, you know, I I contributed to this, so
because I was yelling to you, and you know, I'm
just as guilty as he is. And that's where we
(23:20):
have to explain. No, you were surviving. Your tactic was
a survival tactic and a war zone. Yes, because you
felt threatened and for you, when your fighter flight system
went off, you didn't feel safe, so you went to yelling.
But you didn't cause the conflict. And that is a
(23:42):
hard concept, but they do get it because I have
survivors who are thriving. Now, I'm so grateful they are thriving,
But when they come in, they somehow feel I'm responsible
for this. No, you're not responsible. But what you said, Michelle,
is what I hear a lot, is that, oh I
threw something at him. We're both fighting. You didn't caused
the conflict, though you didn't cause the chaos. You're surviving
(24:05):
and you're utilizing tactics to survive.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Absolutely, I would tell anybody listening to whatever you have
to do to survive. But I hope that while you
are listening, if you're going through this right now, you
don't deserve this. You definitely deserve better for you, because
sometimes these situations don't turn out so great. You know,
(24:29):
I just saw there are situations going on right now
that I'm getting wind of. In my hometown. A young man,
a lady went missing. Her family did a wellness check,
they went in and found her dead of a gunshot wound.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
You know. So, I'm so glad that you're.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Talking about survivors, doctor Brown, But there are cases where
women couldn't get out in time.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yes, and leaving an abusive relationship is one of the
most dealious times in that relationship. And just as you
you and it was on the news in my area
where a police officer. So it was a murder suicide.
You know, he shot his wife and shot himself and
people are saying, Oh, I can't believe this happened in
my neighborhood. Yeah, and then they go back and trace,
(25:14):
go through records. They had a history of DV calls
into this particular home and so it was there. And
so it is really a dangerous time when you try
to leave, because you're now trying to take back your power.
So that's why it's so important for anyone listening in
this relationship, and it resonates with you that you seek
(25:35):
counsel through a DV agency or an advocate to help
you create a safety plan. It is not wise to
just up and leave on your own. It's very dangerous.
And you hear about these shootings that usually happen, the
murders happening. They come to your job and they shoot
you and shoot themselves. It happens in the morning, and
the data shows that you know you're not gonna leave me,
(25:58):
So if you leave me, I'm gonna kill you and
myself to no one else can have you. So it's
really important that if you're thinking of leaving, you know
that you reach out to an agency. They can help
you create a safety plan to do it and the
most safest way possible in connecting with your support system.
But this is not something that you do in your
own You need help.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
And my prayer is that everybody listening, you've got to say, person,
someone that what is someone you can call in, someone
you can go to.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Doctor Shanda. How can the church help? Hey? You know,
with great minds, thinker like, because I was just getting
ready to go back to when you said the faith community.
First of all, we just need to believe survivors, right,
we just need to believe them. We need to talk
more about domestic violence. I also as a consultant, I
help faith communities create domestic violence ministries. It is such
(26:55):
a taboo subject and we need the faith community to
just call it out. It's wrong. Let's not tell people
to pray and stay. There is nowhere in the Bible
where there is this conversation that it's okay to abuse
your wife. And so what's happening Even in my own research,
and that's what I studied For my research, Michelle I
(27:18):
studied the role of faith and spirituality and leaving abusive
relationships for black women. All of my research participants were
told to stay. But the great thing about that, what
we found was that the relationship with Christ was a
foundation to say this is not right. So when you
have a relationship with Christ, Christ will begin to show
(27:40):
you this doesn't align with me. That's right. He will
begin to show you. One of my participants says, in
my prayer closet, he showed me some things about my husband,
and I said, Okay, God, I see you. It's time
to get out. But it's so important that we also
recognize that abuse will use scriptures and will they will
(28:03):
use your belief, syster your faith to say, oh, you're
not going to Bible study to manipulate you. Well, God says,
God hates divorce. You're not supposed to divorce me because
God is going to be angry with you. I have
so many work with so many women of faith that said,
you know, God, I left, and now I feel like
God is going to punish me. And He's punishing me
(28:25):
because of this hard time going through this divorce. And
then my views of God begin to change, and that
becomes a spiritual trauma when I views about God and
our perception of God changes. They're said, I left now,
You've left to get free, but God has punishing me
because this is hard. Dr Brown, And I tell them
that you are capable of doing hard things and God
(28:45):
has always been with you. It's your belief what you
believe about God. Wow.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
And I know you guys as a doctor, as a
counselor period you can't name names, you can't do any
thing like that, which I understand. Do you have a
story of hope from someone in your community.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
I guess actually you are the story of hope. I
am the story of hope. And although I've never you know,
I experienced a mess of vilence in college an undergrad. So,
but my story of hope is that God allowed me
to see that there's something better, that I am worthy
of a healthy relationship. That I needed to heal those
parts of me so I can be in something healthy
(29:30):
that gloriesfides Him right. And so I had to have
that hard conversation with myself that I became more helpful,
more hopeful. Excuse me in my healing journey. When I
began to work on parts of me. But one of
the stories recently, a story of hope that a client
shared that God reminded me of who I am in him.
(29:51):
She said, he reminded me of who I am in him,
and she said, I have to get free. And so
it is her foundation, a foundation when i'm your relationship
with Christ is the foundation that helps you. So we
compliment each other, right, so we think about the faith community.
We compliment each other. You have third business now, Jesus right,
you can't do this alone. He provided counselors on this earth,
(30:15):
just like physicians, to help in all areas of healing,
holistic healing. So what can the church do. We can
have domestic violence ministries. We can have purple Sunday when
everybody your church will we're purple and on of domestic violence.
You can have conversations, you can have training, You can
train your leaders on domestic violence. I recently received the
call that somebody came to the altar and said they
(30:36):
were in abuse a relationship. How do I respond to that?
People are coming to the all to what a lot
of things that we have to be equipped. We need
to be equipped. So you need to train your all
to workers. You need to train your faith leaders on
how to work with someone if they're reporting abuse or
sexual abuse. So or if you're in the youth ministry,
are they mandated reporters? So you need to train like
(30:57):
you do for anything else. Yearly breaking experts could partner
with your community, partner with agencies. Agencies are thrilled to
get into faith community because it's so hard to get
into a faith community. So when they have of faith
community reach out, Oh sure, we're excited. Where do you
want us to be? What son you wants to come with?
Set up a table, pass out flyers, brochures. They are waiting.
But we need leaders. We need the leaders to recognize
(31:21):
the role you have and in interfuse against all women
girls and they have such an important role. Why because
women go to their faithfully before they come to a therapists.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Yep, because that's the first place, especially if you spend
a lot of time there. Especially I stopped going to therapy.
Were for people who were like visibly ill, Like visibly
you could look at somebody and be like, okay, they're
mentally ill.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Right, Well, a lot.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
Of people are like, ain't nothing wrong with me? Yeah,
my mama, yell at me every day, or my daddy
hits me or whatever. But ain't nothing wrong with me
because a lot of people also feel it. Because I
survived it, it's normal.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
It is not normal. Yeah, we grow up in chaos
and we think that's normal.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
And how to recognize I could keep you all day,
how to recognize.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
When something is abusive? So when it feels controlling.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Right, what are other signs where somebody needs to recognize
this is abuse?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, So there are a lot of red flags. I
talked about, the manipulation, the isolation, controlling where you go.
You know, your religious police. If you want to go
to church, now you can't go to church. You got
to stay here with me, right, Controlling your cell phone?
You know, it's so many the power and control will.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
The root of abuse is power and control, right, got
it right?
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And they do it in subtle ways to maintain that
power and control over you. Does that make sense? That isolation,
controlling your whereabouts, like blowing up your cell phone. If
you're with your girlfriends and your data someone and they're
blown at your cell phone. I mean like, really, you know,
where's the respect here? I said, I'm going to my girlfriends.
Why you got to blow up my phone like that
and then they question you what were you doing or
(33:02):
trying to sniff your clothes? Those are all red flags.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Hush, all right, all right, okay, okay, now before we leave,
what are.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Some green flags? Yes, I was gonna talk about that,
someone who respects boundaries?
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Okay, So just so y'all know, when you look at
the trees or a healthy plant, it should be green. Yes,
the rose ain't gonna be green, but the leaves around.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It is green, right, plant? Mom? Like me, I'm noticing. Okay,
what was green? Got a little brown on it? Right?
So there are any reasons.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
So I'm so excited that you use green flags because
to me, green symbolizes health, and it's the.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Color for mental health. It's Mental Health Awareness month, right,
So when we think about green, those indicators and listeners
thinking about someone who respect your boundaries. Right. So if
you're dating someone and then you say, well, I'm going
up for girls night, We're going to a movie and
I see when I get back, okay, or don't call
me at the ten o'clock because I have a meeting
at work and I need to get my rest. So
(34:11):
a healthy flag would be okay, bull oh baby, I understand,
and I talk to you in the morning, get your rest,
respect your about They're not gonna keep calling you okay,
so they respect your boundary, respect your boundaries. Someone who
can manage conflict, well, they're not calling your names. It's
so important to ask people in your data, So how
do you manage conflict? Or they say how do you
(34:31):
act when you're mad? Yes, because you get to see
all of that in those first ninety days. You get
to see how people manage conflict. Can you say we're
agreed to disagree and move forward. I've worked with class
would say I'm dating someone now and it feels different.
What do you mean we have some conflict and we
are agreed to disagree and we move forward. I was like,
(34:52):
so you're not gonna call me your name. He was like, no,
So you're going to have conflict in relationship. It's how
you manage your emotions, how you manage the conflict. Someone
who's respectful showing you respect that boundaries issue is real
one of those things where if somebody's not respecting your boundaries,
(35:13):
that's a huge red flag. But if they are respecting
your boundaries, then that is a green flag. Respecting your boundary,
being able to manage conflict, you know, allowing you to
have time by yourself and maintain your individuality and not
thinking they got to smuggle you on the time. It's
also a healthy, healthy sign, so good you can be
(35:33):
in a relationship and maintain your individuality and if you can't,
that is a red flag that you got to be
with somebody. Twenty four to seven is ma'am, doctor Brown.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Is there a universal website or phone number where someone can.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Call, Yes, the Domestic Violence National Hotline. You can call
the eight hundred number. It is one eight hundred, I
think it's seven nine to nine safe safe, And doing
that website, the little Boss comes up. If you're not
in a safe environment. It tells you how to exit out.
But you can also call the crisis numbers well not
(36:08):
a eight. And you know, it's so important to think
about how abusers will track you. They use trackers and
devices out here, so you know, tell somebody that you
are in this situation, someone who can offer you a safe,
non judgment and environment to talk about it and partner
with you. And the crisis number as well can be
(36:28):
that step. If you can't think of the eight hundred
safe number, the eight hundred number.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
You've got it, doctor Brown, y'all.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
She gave us.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Red flags, green flags, and of course the statistics that
one in four women will experience some form of intimate
partner violence, right instead of domestic violence. When was intimate
partner introduced? I have never heard it until today?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Oh really, so intimate partner violence if I can recall,
think that maybe in the early seventies. You know, now
I don't quote, but I'm real late, you know, yeah,
I mean, you know, you have this movement, and then
now you have gender based violence. But it's an it's
an umbrella term. So I use domestic violence because that
(37:14):
is the term that in my community that we recognize,
We recognize the mess to violence. The black community recognize
the mess of violence, and you hear more of that
versus intimate partner violence. An intimate partner violence is an
umbrella term where you have various forms of violence. Falls
under that umbrella sexual assault, sexual violence, domestic violence. So
it's the umbrella term. But I specifically work with women
(37:37):
who've experienced dimss of violence in some forms of sexual
violence as well, and there are a lot of women
who were sexually assaulted in their in the relationship as well.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
It overlaps, it overlaps Doctor Brown. Last, but not least,
on your social media, you give affirmations before we wrap
it up.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Can you give us an affirmation or two that we
can take with us, or maybe someone could print it
out and put it on their mirror.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yes, the first of I am worthy of a healthy
relationship free of abuse. I am worthy of a relationship
free of abuse. The second one that comes to mind,
because leaving an abuse of relationship is a very hard thing.
I also remind myself of this and my handling journey
(38:28):
that I am capable of doing hard things. Back to Brown,
You're amazing. You're amazing too, Sis. I appreciate the opportunity,
very humble. We want people to get free, and they will.
You all, do not give up. You are not alone.
I'm right there with you.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Come on so again, we will make sure that y'all
get the numbers and the website on this episode of
checking in, Doctor Brown.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Whill you come back?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I most certainly will, almost certainly will. Got a book
that I'm writing specifically for black women, and and so
I'll be releasing that title very soon definitely want to
come back because there is something that black women need.
I really want to speak to the black women.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
You got it all right, everybody, y'all, please please please
just read out you got this, Yes, you got it
all right, Doctor Brown.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence
intimate relationship abuse, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline
at one eight hundred seven ninety nine seven two three three,
or you can text the word start to eight eight
(39:44):
seven eight eight the National Domestic Violence Hotline and domestic
violence support is so important. I love that they say
that everyone deserves relationships free from domestic violence. When you're ready,
we're here to listen with confidential support twenty four seven,
three hundred and sixty five days a year. I can
(40:06):
imagine how scary it is. I was speaking with someone
and they said they were telling me. They said, everybody
thinks it's easy to leave a relationship that's filled with abuse,
and they said, it's not easy, but this person was
able to escape and live. I pray that you get
(40:27):
the courage and the strength and boldness to say, you
know what, my life is worth living and leave. This
topic is so heavy, but it's so needed. All right,
You're loved. You're loved over here at checking In.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Domestic violence is a problem. It has been a problem
for years and to some people, you've definitely experienced a
form of domestic violence or you've witnessed it, and I
(00:39):
just want you to know that you are loved and
you have value. This episode could possibly be triggering, as
this is going to be the topic of discussion with
a licensed expert in this area who also experienceperience domestic
(01:01):
violence in college. Her name is doctor Shanita Brown, and
I am so glad that we have her with us
today and this is a safe space. But if you
feel like it could be a little too much for
you for this episode, do not feel pressured to listen
or if you want to.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Grab a friend.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And listen together and process and whatever it is that
you have to do. But again, Michelle, everybody at Black Effect,
everybody that helps Checking In this podcast to be what
it is. We want you to know that we love you,
we see you, and you have so much value.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Hey, everybody, this is another another amazing week of checking in.
This episode is probably going to be definitely all my
episodes are serious, but I do want to put a disclaimer.
What we are going to be discussing could definitely be triggering.
So I just want to ensure that you are in
a safe space as we will be talking about domestic violence,
(02:11):
sexual assault. I just want to make sure that you
are in a safe space or you have some safe
people around you. Should something that you hear in this
episode should be triggering. Our goal is not to trigger anyone,
but to bring awareness, and so that's what we are
going to do today with someone absolutely awesome. She is
(02:32):
a speaker and educator, licensed professional counselor and train or.
Her work has been featured in.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Essence and Forbes, so many amazing platforms, and I'm glad
that she is taking time out to check in. Please welcome,
doctor Shanita Brown.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Thank you for having me. Michelle's an honor to be here.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
You are so so welcome. Where are you checking in from?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I am checking in from Raleigh, North Carolina. Shout out
to North Carolina, originally from Kinston, North Carolina. To go
to two five to two and I love what I do, Michelle,
it isn't working. You mentioned people being triggered, and you
know triggers are an indicator that parts of us where
we need to heal. So I appreciate you having that
(03:21):
disclaimer and talking about something that we need to talk
about every day, not just doing Domestic Violence Awareness Month
or Sexual Assault Awareness Month, but every day because of
the statistics and how so many people are impacted by
domestic and sexual violence.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I don't know about you, but I used to be
ashamed if I felt triggered by something. But now I
just take the power back and say, oh, it's okay. This,
Like you said, this is just showing you an area
that you're healing or you need to impact something, absolutely
getting down to the why, and so to encourage people.
(03:59):
Triggers aren't anything to be ashamed about, right, There's.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Nothing wrong with them. They're messages, they're indicators, and they're
just telling you, hey, look at me, look at alert. Alert.
We can have good triggers too, you know, in my
own healing, and I've talked about in my own experience
with domestic violence, or there were parts of my experience
where I was triggered. I remember who my friends were
that looked out for me, and so there were some
(04:22):
happy moments that even doing something that was so devastating
then trying to find my voice that I have people
in my community and in my network that reminded me
you deserve something better. Yeah, so those are happy triggers.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
M So, as we're discussing domestic violence, you don't have
to go too deep into your own story. Sure, but
I think it's probably it makes people feel safe, heard
or understood when they're like, I don't just have a
practitioner speaking from expertise. Well, you're speaking from real life.
(04:58):
You're not speaking textbook.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Is what I'm into say, absolutely lived experiences here, I
identify as a warrior of domestic violence, not only a survivor,
but I have the lived experience and what that's like
as a black woman as well a woman of faith
in that healing journey. So I come from two perspectives.
You know, a trauma therapist and that's the one who's
had the lived experiences of trying to get out.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Now, you could have went any in any track or
specialty as it relates to your field. Is because of
your experience that you chose.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Hey, I'm going to be in the area of trauma.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
It could be workplace psychology.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Absolutely, I think you know right In my dissertation and
wanting to work with black women, women who were of
women of faith and have had experience with domestic violence.
Black women in general do not have enough resources, and
we experience domessic violence more than any other ethnicity. So
(05:57):
it's important. Yes, forty four percent compared to our white
counterparts and other ethnicities. And so I wanted to be
able to study and go deeper and to be able
to help women get free.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
M I got about two or three questions just in
that nugget that you dropped. First of all, that black
women suffered domestic violence more, because now it's making me
go back to slavery. Was it because that's something that
unfortunately we know all too well from slavery. Right, that
(06:31):
just blows my mind. And second, you talked about women
of faith. How maybe women are just told to stay
in their marriages, stay in that relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
God's gonna work it out. Just keep praying for them. Yeah,
stay and pray. Get on your knees. He's dragging me
on my knees though. Yeah, women are taught to stay
in these you post the women I've taught to keep
the family together, right traditionally thinking about slavery, right, what
the role of women. Domestic violence is a systemic issue, okay,
(07:05):
And so when we were talking about that four hundred
gap in history, it's about power and control. It's literally
when somebody tries to maintain power and control over another
person in a relationship. And a lot of times we
don't know what healthy relationships look like.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
We have a lot of images of how we grew up.
It could be a relational template, it could be what
we're seeing in the media, and so there are a
number of factors. But it is that power and control
that we don't reorganize. Sometimes we think it's love, right,
we have songs and think, oh, he's trying to take myself. Oh,
it's so cute, he's picking out my outfits. But a
lot of that are red flags and we don't know
(07:45):
what some of those signs are of red flags and
green flags, and we think it's love, we think it's excited.
And so, yes, we have to raise awareness about domestic balance.
It's that power and control. It is not a mental illness.
Domestic violence is a choice. I want I want listeners
to understand that a perpetrator or abuser is engaging in
(08:09):
tactics to maintain power and control over someone. They are
choosing to do that.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
I was going to ease into what does it feel like,
what does it look like? But you've already named something,
whereas like girl, he was looking through my phone, he
was trying to figure out who was calling a text
to be honey. He wants to make sure honey that
he is the only one.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
But you're like, it's seem cute, but it could be right,
a red flag, right, so nobody gets nobody shows up
as controlling in the beginning. So during that honeymoon stage
and all love Dovey's like, oh my god, he just
loves me or you know, and want to put this
out there, there are men who experience abuse as well.
(08:51):
So the abusic can be a woman. But statistically, what
we know is that more women experience and we're thinking
about genda, more women experience domesticized on black women. Men
don't report it for a number of reasons. You know,
they're taught how they are socialized, right, how they're socializing.
You know, you have to man up, you have to
be hard. You know, you don't go and tell somebody
(09:12):
that a woman is beating on you or control of you.
You're a punk. You assisted, right, And so they don't
speak up. The number of reasons why man don't speak up,
But you ask, what does it feel like? What does
it look like? Michelle? Is a war zone. You're constantly
on pins and needles, like you're walking on eggshells. You're
(09:35):
for battle. That's what it feels like. You don't even
know that you're in a war zone. You become so
used to that.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I was speaking with someone and they said he was
this was unlike any relationship.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I ever had.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
When I met him, it was love at first sight.
And when he met me, he told me it was
love at first sight. And I'm just wondering these abusers,
I feel like they study you or maybe they'll get
you to be vulnerable and tell you about your past
love life or your past relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
And doctor she needed.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Do they show up as everything you've ever wanted and needed?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well depends up. Yeah, well yeah, because you can be
very vulnerable and it feels good like through trauma bonding, right,
And so you know we think about trauma bonding. Your
your wounds are connected to someone else and so it
feels safe, it feels secure, and it feels good and
in that moment, you don't realize that, Oh he's showering
(10:33):
me all these gifts and he can't wait to see
me again, or I'm the only one who's ever done
this with him, or he's telling me all these things
like love vomit. You don't know what that is. And
you're right. They are doing a lot of things to
speak to the parts of you that are wounded and
not heal. And it feels good and it feels safe,
and it becomes like a drug that getting oss like
(10:56):
I don't want to do that because it just feels
like I can never get out. It feels weird. It's
that neurological, the chemicals that are released when you are
with someone, and they make you feel safe, just like crack, right,
people getting off of drugs, like, oh my god, I
cannot believe. It's like going through withdraws very hard, and
that tends to keep women and survivors in that cycle
(11:21):
because of trauma bonding. Right, It's like, I cannot get
out of this, and while they go back. It takes
seven attempts for a person to successfully leave, because they
left and they go back, or you know, their boyfriend
or the partner may say say something and they put
them back in this honeymoon phase or you know, I
didn't really mean it, or you know, I'm sorry, and
(11:42):
if you would have done this, then I would have
done that way, So they begin to that cycle starts
again and you don't hear that that person just said,
if you wouldn't have done that, then I wouldn't have
done that. For example, there's no accountability.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
What are the ages that this starts as far as
the person who is the abuser.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Well, it can start very early because you know teen
dating violence, right, and so the ages of adolescence, you know,
teen Dating Violence Awareness Month is in February, but that
age range is most at risk for getting into an
abusive relationship. One. They don't know what healthy relationships look like, okay,
(12:26):
and so if you grew up in a home where
you witness abuse, you're more at risk to become an abuser,
and you're more at resk to experience trauma bonding, you're
more at risk to get in an unhealthy relationship. Talksic relationship,
because that's what that became the template for you. Me
(12:46):
and you, we had some dming and some stuff on Instagram,
and y'all, let me tell you that's the power of
social media when it's used in a good way. Absolutely,
how doctor she Needa Brown.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Think she popped up on my Explorer page or maybe
somebody reposted something she said, and I immediately pressed follow
because although she is psychologist, I follow a lot that
maybe their specialty is in narcissism, which a narcissism can
actually inflict, you know, physical pain, or I just find
(13:21):
they specialize in mental health disorders.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Right, But I loved how this is.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Your specialty when you told me the statistics, when you
said one in every.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, one in four women will experience some form of
domestic violence. So intimate partner violence is a number of
term that consists of domestic violence. Is sexual violence, rape,
and sexual assault, right, childhood sexual abuse ninety percent. I
would say ninety five percent of my clients are experiences
various forms of intimate partner violence. They have experienced some
(13:56):
form of abuse, maybe in a childhood and now they're
beginning to see how it shows up in their adulthood life. Right.
And so that one in four women will experience some
form of intimate partner violence is a that's a huge statistic.
Forty four percent of Black women will experience domestic violence,
they are experiencing it, and so we have to really
(14:19):
make sure that we pay attention and talk more about
healthy relationships, more about the green flags, more about the
red flags, so people can get free. You know, so
if we don't want people in these unhealthy relationship because
the impact of that can be lingering, lingering, Michelle, it
can take years for many survivors to get through that.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Do you find that if someone has experienced abuse in
their childhood as an adult, they're more likely to enter
into an abusive relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yes, and it also they're more at rest, yes, But
it depends on how early they receive help. Right, So
if they were if they witnessing their child hood and
they started therapy, or they started recognizing why am I
like this?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Why do I find myself in repeated patterns? If at
some point in their life that they started to have
those questions, perhaps they sought therapy and begin to help
out and you know, kind of work through those relational
patterns and so they don't find themselves and repeated unhealthy
and abusive relationships now, but it starts to manifest later
(15:25):
and a lot of times, no one is going around,
top girl, what are your triggers. We're not talking about
triggers that way. Do you know what your triggers are?
That is not the norm conversation. And so it becomes
later that we begin to witness, like why am I
like this? Why I keep they in the same men
who are abusive, or they may not be physically abusive,
but emotionally abusive. That's just as worse because we are
(15:49):
carrying invisible wounds, these scars that no one can see,
and just chipping away at our self worth and our
self esteem.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
It is very, very layered, you know, Like someone was saying, well,
he told me I was beautiful, and I was trying
to be judgmental, and I say I was when I
said this statement. I said, we shouldn't be okay with
the bare minimum. Yeah, can we know ourselves that were beautiful?
(16:20):
Or I love it when someone tells me I'm beautiful
person i'm dating, Yeah, tell me I'm beautiful, although I
should know it myself. Or he just did things like
I think what I'm trying to get at.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Maybe if you didn't grow.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Up with a father who opened up the door for you,
so when a man does it for the first time,
you're just like Oh my gosh, he opened up the
door for me. I feel like it happens within months. Yeah,
it can't stay the good guy long.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It starts showing up. It would start showing up. It
gradually increases, so you get this overwhelmeding. Oh, they just
want to be with you. Twenty four at seven, they're
giving you all these gifts and I just I've never
it's called love bombing, right, and we don't see that.
So if you've never experienced that, you think that it
just feels good. He's really into me, he's consistent. You
(17:10):
don't recognize that. Too much of that in the beginning
and overbearing of that is a red flag, right. And
then they gradually keep showering you with gifts, and then
they you changed the clue to finding out if that's
love bombing and if there's an indicator of an abuse
or it can change. You start being available and see
(17:32):
what happened, and it'll come up. I'm doing all this
stuff for you, and now you're not available or you
don't want to see me, it'll start coming up. It
will start coming out, Oh, you're changing because I want
to spend time with my friends. I went done this
for you. I did that for you, So now you
almost spend time with me. So could signs be they
isolate you from family and friends? Oh, the isolation. Yes,
(17:56):
that is an indicator.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
And I feel like it almost makes you want to
be careful or what you share with potential partners, because
you could literally what if you're like, man.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
My family just pulls on me all the time.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
And it's like they'll use what you say. And you
told me your family pulls on you all the time.
So I just wanted you to myself. I wanted you
to know what it's like to say yes to you.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yes, absolutely, that's a great example manipulators, manipulation. Oh my goodness,
that gas light. And then you begin to question yourself.
You think you're going crazy, like did this really just happen? Yeah,
it just happened, But that gas light is a form
of psychological abuse where you begin to question your perception
of reality, like this really didn't happen, And so you
(18:41):
end up not trusting yourself. You don't trust your decisions,
You can't trust anything because you're constantly having your mind
that I can't believe what I'm experiencing or question it
if the reality is really what it is because I've
been gas lit so many times and that manipulation. Are
you sure that didn't really happen. That's not what I said.
(19:04):
You're just making that up. It was a different way.
It didn't happen that way. That's not how I remember it.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
And you know, saw some people gaslight and don't even
know it because maybe you've never heard of the term, right,
you know, But I feel like it's almost innate responses. Okay,
So for instance, because I know what the term gaslighting is,
I know what it feels like. Yeah, and so when
I'm having conversations with someone, I could be joking and
(19:30):
be you know how we could be like They'll be
like Sheanita, you know you was snoring in your sleep,
and you be like you all was snoring in my sleep.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
That was just you.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
You was having you was dreaming, you was you was
this so y'all?
Speaker 4 (19:43):
That's that's really It's almost like that you find yourself
doing a playful gaslight. But why is that so innate
in us? When someone calls us to the plate of something,
we say, that's not how I meant it. Yes, that
is how you meant it, right, And that makes us
do that it's gaslighting, a defense mechanism in a person
(20:06):
where maybe they don't.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Mean to, but they are. I think, you know, because
gas lighting is not confined to just domestic violence relationships.
It can happen at the with your physician, It can
happen in many experiences, in many interpersonal interactions. So it
is not only in domestic violence. You know, if you
think about you know, I told my physician A, B
(20:29):
and C and D. You can't know. It wasn't that way.
Like I'm sitting here telling you my experience and you're
questioning what really happened to my body? You got me
thinking I can't trust what I felt. Yes, yep, sometimes,
you know. So it isn't just in DV relationships. It
can be in your day to day interaction with your ball,
so with your siblings and family, and so I don't
(20:52):
think people know that they are potentially causing that harm.
Right now, the word gas light and the word narcissism
is becoming more popular. You've even had people do posts
where they're like, oh my gosh, now everybody wants to
use the term gaslight. Everybody wants to I'm actually glad that.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
The word is becoming popular because now people are going
to be able to be like, no, this is what you.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Are doing to me? Or am I doing that? Absolutely? Yes?
Am I gaslight in somebody? Am I I'm trying to question,
you know, call some doubt and what someone stated to me.
And a lot of times I don't think people are
aware of it. And the way that you can share that,
(21:42):
you know, basically what I just heard. I feel like
you're gas lighting me. Now the person at the other end,
you will hope to say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean
to do that. What would be helpful or so that
I don't do that again. Now, an abuser won't do that,
not at all. They won't take any account of baility. No,
I didn't do that. No, that's just you. You're making
(22:03):
this all up. I didn't say that, So they're not
taking any account of it. It's always your fault. It's
always your fault and a domestic vascillation. It's always a
survivor's fault. That's how they see it. But really it's
not the savibara's fault. It's never the survivor's fault. The
survivor is surviving. Survivors don't create chaos. They don't create
the conflict. They're trying to survive the conflict.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Abuse of any form to anyone listening is never your fault.
I don't care if you custom out five seconds prior.
It does not give anybody the right to harm you
in any kind of way. Now, should I be cussing
nobody up? Probably not, because let's talk about this. I
(22:50):
know we're talking about domestic violence, but sometimes people don't
even know that what you say to somebody is considered
verbal abuse.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yes, and so I want to go back, piggyback to
your point of if even if you cuss them out right.
And so I have a lot of survivors, and I've
worked with many of them, quite a few clients who
have said, you know, I I contributed to this, so
because I was yelling to you, and you know, I'm
just as guilty as he is. And that's where we
(23:20):
have to explain. No, you were surviving. Your tactic was
a survival tactic and a war zone. Yes, because you
felt threatened and for you, when your fighter flight system
went off, you didn't feel safe, so you went to yelling.
But you didn't cause the conflict. And that is a
(23:42):
hard concept, but they do get it because I have
survivors who are thriving. Now, I'm so grateful they are thriving,
But when they come in, they somehow feel I'm responsible
for this. No, you're not responsible. But what you said, Michelle,
is what I hear a lot, is that, oh I
threw something at him. We're both fighting. You didn't caused
the conflict, though you didn't cause the chaos. You're surviving
(24:05):
and you're utilizing tactics to survive.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Absolutely, I would tell anybody listening to whatever you have
to do to survive. But I hope that while you
are listening, if you're going through this right now, you
don't deserve this. You definitely deserve better for you, because
sometimes these situations don't turn out so great. You know,
(24:29):
I just saw there are situations going on right now
that I'm getting wind of. In my hometown. A young man,
a lady went missing. Her family did a wellness check,
they went in and found her dead of a gunshot wound.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
You know. So, I'm so glad that you're.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Talking about survivors, doctor Brown, But there are cases where
women couldn't get out in time.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yes, and leaving an abusive relationship is one of the
most dealious times in that relationship. And just as you
you and it was on the news in my area
where a police officer. So it was a murder suicide.
You know, he shot his wife and shot himself and
people are saying, Oh, I can't believe this happened in
my neighborhood. Yeah, and then they go back and trace,
(25:14):
go through records. They had a history of DV calls
into this particular home and so it was there. And
so it is really a dangerous time when you try
to leave, because you're now trying to take back your power.
So that's why it's so important for anyone listening in
this relationship, and it resonates with you that you seek
(25:35):
counsel through a DV agency or an advocate to help
you create a safety plan. It is not wise to
just up and leave on your own. It's very dangerous.
And you hear about these shootings that usually happen, the
murders happening. They come to your job and they shoot
you and shoot themselves. It happens in the morning, and
the data shows that you know you're not gonna leave me,
(25:58):
So if you leave me, I'm gonna kill you and
myself to no one else can have you. So it's
really important that if you're thinking of leaving, you know
that you reach out to an agency. They can help
you create a safety plan to do it and the
most safest way possible in connecting with your support system.
But this is not something that you do in your
own You need help.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
And my prayer is that everybody listening, you've got to say, person,
someone that what is someone you can call in, someone
you can go to.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Doctor Shanda. How can the church help? Hey? You know,
with great minds, thinker like, because I was just getting
ready to go back to when you said the faith community.
First of all, we just need to believe survivors, right,
we just need to believe them. We need to talk
more about domestic violence. I also as a consultant, I
help faith communities create domestic violence ministries. It is such
(26:55):
a taboo subject and we need the faith community to
just call it out. It's wrong. Let's not tell people
to pray and stay. There is nowhere in the Bible
where there is this conversation that it's okay to abuse
your wife. And so what's happening Even in my own research,
and that's what I studied For my research, Michelle I
(27:18):
studied the role of faith and spirituality and leaving abusive
relationships for black women. All of my research participants were
told to stay. But the great thing about that, what
we found was that the relationship with Christ was a
foundation to say this is not right. So when you
have a relationship with Christ, Christ will begin to show
(27:40):
you this doesn't align with me. That's right. He will
begin to show you. One of my participants says, in
my prayer closet, he showed me some things about my husband,
and I said, Okay, God, I see you. It's time
to get out. But it's so important that we also
recognize that abuse will use scriptures and will they will
(28:03):
use your belief, syster your faith to say, oh, you're
not going to Bible study to manipulate you. Well, God says,
God hates divorce. You're not supposed to divorce me because
God is going to be angry with you. I have
so many work with so many women of faith that said,
you know, God, I left, and now I feel like
God is going to punish me. And He's punishing me
(28:25):
because of this hard time going through this divorce. And
then my views of God begin to change, and that
becomes a spiritual trauma when I views about God and
our perception of God changes. They're said, I left now,
You've left to get free, but God has punishing me
because this is hard. Dr Brown, And I tell them
that you are capable of doing hard things and God
(28:45):
has always been with you. It's your belief what you
believe about God. Wow.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
And I know you guys as a doctor, as a
counselor period you can't name names, you can't do any
thing like that, which I understand. Do you have a
story of hope from someone in your community.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
I guess actually you are the story of hope. I
am the story of hope. And although I've never you know,
I experienced a mess of vilence in college an undergrad. So,
but my story of hope is that God allowed me
to see that there's something better, that I am worthy
of a healthy relationship. That I needed to heal those
parts of me so I can be in something healthy
(29:30):
that gloriesfides Him right. And so I had to have
that hard conversation with myself that I became more helpful,
more hopeful. Excuse me in my healing journey. When I
began to work on parts of me. But one of
the stories recently, a story of hope that a client
shared that God reminded me of who I am in him.
(29:51):
She said, he reminded me of who I am in him,
and she said, I have to get free. And so
it is her foundation, a foundation when i'm your relationship
with Christ is the foundation that helps you. So we
compliment each other, right, so we think about the faith community.
We compliment each other. You have third business now, Jesus right,
you can't do this alone. He provided counselors on this earth,
(30:15):
just like physicians, to help in all areas of healing,
holistic healing. So what can the church do. We can
have domestic violence ministries. We can have purple Sunday when
everybody your church will we're purple and on of domestic violence.
You can have conversations, you can have training, You can
train your leaders on domestic violence. I recently received the
call that somebody came to the altar and said they
(30:36):
were in abuse a relationship. How do I respond to that?
People are coming to the all to what a lot
of things that we have to be equipped. We need
to be equipped. So you need to train your all
to workers. You need to train your faith leaders on
how to work with someone if they're reporting abuse or
sexual abuse. So or if you're in the youth ministry,
are they mandated reporters? So you need to train like
(30:57):
you do for anything else. Yearly breaking experts could partner
with your community, partner with agencies. Agencies are thrilled to
get into faith community because it's so hard to get
into a faith community. So when they have of faith
community reach out, Oh sure, we're excited. Where do you
want us to be? What son you wants to come with?
Set up a table, pass out flyers, brochures. They are waiting.
But we need leaders. We need the leaders to recognize
(31:21):
the role you have and in interfuse against all women
girls and they have such an important role. Why because
women go to their faithfully before they come to a therapists.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Yep, because that's the first place, especially if you spend
a lot of time there. Especially I stopped going to therapy.
Were for people who were like visibly ill, Like visibly
you could look at somebody and be like, okay, they're
mentally ill.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Right, Well, a lot.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
Of people are like, ain't nothing wrong with me? Yeah,
my mama, yell at me every day, or my daddy
hits me or whatever. But ain't nothing wrong with me
because a lot of people also feel it. Because I
survived it, it's normal.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
It is not normal. Yeah, we grow up in chaos
and we think that's normal.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
And how to recognize I could keep you all day,
how to recognize.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
When something is abusive? So when it feels controlling.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Right, what are other signs where somebody needs to recognize
this is abuse?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, So there are a lot of red flags. I
talked about, the manipulation, the isolation, controlling where you go.
You know, your religious police. If you want to go
to church, now you can't go to church. You got
to stay here with me, right, Controlling your cell phone?
You know, it's so many the power and control will.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
The root of abuse is power and control, right, got
it right?
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And they do it in subtle ways to maintain that
power and control over you. Does that make sense? That isolation,
controlling your whereabouts, like blowing up your cell phone. If
you're with your girlfriends and your data someone and they're
blown at your cell phone. I mean like, really, you know,
where's the respect here? I said, I'm going to my girlfriends.
Why you got to blow up my phone like that
and then they question you what were you doing or
(33:02):
trying to sniff your clothes? Those are all red flags.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Hush, all right, all right, okay, okay, now before we leave,
what are.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Some green flags? Yes, I was gonna talk about that,
someone who respects boundaries?
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Okay, So just so y'all know, when you look at
the trees or a healthy plant, it should be green. Yes,
the rose ain't gonna be green, but the leaves around.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It is green, right, plant? Mom? Like me, I'm noticing. Okay,
what was green? Got a little brown on it? Right?
So there are any reasons.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
So I'm so excited that you use green flags because
to me, green symbolizes health, and it's the.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Color for mental health. It's Mental Health Awareness month, right,
So when we think about green, those indicators and listeners
thinking about someone who respect your boundaries. Right. So if
you're dating someone and then you say, well, I'm going
up for girls night, We're going to a movie and
I see when I get back, okay, or don't call
me at the ten o'clock because I have a meeting
at work and I need to get my rest. So
(34:11):
a healthy flag would be okay, bull oh baby, I understand,
and I talk to you in the morning, get your rest,
respect your about They're not gonna keep calling you okay,
so they respect your boundary, respect your boundaries. Someone who
can manage conflict, well, they're not calling your names. It's
so important to ask people in your data, So how
do you manage conflict? Or they say how do you
(34:31):
act when you're mad? Yes, because you get to see
all of that in those first ninety days. You get
to see how people manage conflict. Can you say we're
agreed to disagree and move forward. I've worked with class
would say I'm dating someone now and it feels different.
What do you mean we have some conflict and we
are agreed to disagree and we move forward. I was like,
(34:52):
so you're not gonna call me your name. He was like, no,
So you're going to have conflict in relationship. It's how
you manage your emotions, how you manage the conflict. Someone
who's respectful showing you respect that boundaries issue is real
one of those things where if somebody's not respecting your boundaries,
(35:13):
that's a huge red flag. But if they are respecting
your boundaries, then that is a green flag. Respecting your boundary,
being able to manage conflict, you know, allowing you to
have time by yourself and maintain your individuality and not
thinking they got to smuggle you on the time. It's
also a healthy, healthy sign, so good you can be
(35:33):
in a relationship and maintain your individuality and if you can't,
that is a red flag that you got to be
with somebody. Twenty four to seven is ma'am, doctor Brown.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Is there a universal website or phone number where someone can.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Call, Yes, the Domestic Violence National Hotline. You can call
the eight hundred number. It is one eight hundred, I
think it's seven nine to nine safe safe, And doing
that website, the little Boss comes up. If you're not
in a safe environment. It tells you how to exit out.
But you can also call the crisis numbers well not
(36:08):
a eight. And you know, it's so important to think
about how abusers will track you. They use trackers and
devices out here, so you know, tell somebody that you
are in this situation, someone who can offer you a safe,
non judgment and environment to talk about it and partner
with you. And the crisis number as well can be
(36:28):
that step. If you can't think of the eight hundred
safe number, the eight hundred number.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
You've got it, doctor Brown, y'all.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
She gave us.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Red flags, green flags, and of course the statistics that
one in four women will experience some form of intimate
partner violence, right instead of domestic violence. When was intimate
partner introduced? I have never heard it until today?
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Oh really, so intimate partner violence if I can recall,
think that maybe in the early seventies. You know, now
I don't quote, but I'm real late, you know, yeah,
I mean, you know, you have this movement, and then
now you have gender based violence. But it's an it's
an umbrella term. So I use domestic violence because that
(37:14):
is the term that in my community that we recognize,
We recognize the mess to violence. The black community recognize
the mess of violence, and you hear more of that
versus intimate partner violence. An intimate partner violence is an
umbrella term where you have various forms of violence. Falls
under that umbrella sexual assault, sexual violence, domestic violence. So
it's the umbrella term. But I specifically work with women
(37:37):
who've experienced dimss of violence in some forms of sexual
violence as well, and there are a lot of women
who were sexually assaulted in their in the relationship as well.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
It overlaps, it overlaps Doctor Brown. Last, but not least,
on your social media, you give affirmations before we wrap
it up.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Can you give us an affirmation or two that we
can take with us, or maybe someone could print it
out and put it on their mirror.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yes, the first of I am worthy of a healthy
relationship free of abuse. I am worthy of a relationship
free of abuse. The second one that comes to mind,
because leaving an abuse of relationship is a very hard thing.
I also remind myself of this and my handling journey
(38:28):
that I am capable of doing hard things. Back to Brown,
You're amazing. You're amazing too, Sis. I appreciate the opportunity,
very humble. We want people to get free, and they will.
You all, do not give up. You are not alone.
I'm right there with you.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Come on so again, we will make sure that y'all
get the numbers and the website on this episode of
checking in, Doctor Brown.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Whill you come back?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I most certainly will, almost certainly will. Got a book
that I'm writing specifically for black women, and and so
I'll be releasing that title very soon definitely want to
come back because there is something that black women need.
I really want to speak to the black women.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
You got it all right, everybody, y'all, please please please
just read out you got this, Yes, you got it
all right, Doctor Brown.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence
intimate relationship abuse, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline
at one eight hundred seven ninety nine seven two three three,
or you can text the word start to eight eight
(39:44):
seven eight eight the National Domestic Violence Hotline and domestic
violence support is so important. I love that they say
that everyone deserves relationships free from domestic violence. When you're ready,
we're here to listen with confidential support twenty four seven,
three hundred and sixty five days a year. I can
(40:06):
imagine how scary it is. I was speaking with someone
and they said they were telling me. They said, everybody
thinks it's easy to leave a relationship that's filled with abuse,
and they said, it's not easy, but this person was
able to escape and live. I pray that you get
(40:27):
the courage and the strength and boldness to say, you
know what, my life is worth living and leave. This
topic is so heavy, but it's so needed. All right,
You're loved. You're loved over here at checking In.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production of iHeartRadio
and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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