April 16, 2024 • 38 mins
There is bouncing back after adversity, and then there is: Vanessa Williams. The talented multi-hyphenate was only 21 years old when she became the first Black woman to be crowned Miss America. Yet a controversy surrounding the release of unauthorized nude photos led to her ultimately relinquishing her title 10 months into her reign. When doors were closed to her following the scandal, she fought her way back to an impressive and decorated career: Williams built decades of success as an actor and recording artist, selling 25 million records worldwide, starring in over 100 roles in television, film, and on Broadway - and being nominated for a Tony and multiple Emmy and Grammy Awards. Vanessa Williams speaks with host Alec Baldwin about the death threats she received after she won Miss America, how the work of Stephen Sondheim inspires the type of art she wishes to make, and what it’s like working with Elton John on her next big project.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart Radio. If I were to share with
you the greatest show business comeback story in history, you
might not believe it, but it's all true. My guest
today was the very first black woman to be crowned
Miss America, only to resign following the release of unauthorized
(00:27):
nude photos. In the years after the scandal, she reinvented herself,
building an impressive and decorated career. She released chart topping music,
performed on Broadway, and starred in television and film. It
could only be Vanessa Williams. Her work has earned her
(00:47):
three Emmy nominations, eleven Grammy nominations, and a Tony nomination.
She's the recipient of a Billboard Music Award and multiple
NAACP Image Awards. I wanted to know how her upbringing
in New York affected her trajectory and her goals.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I was born in Tarrytown. I grew up in one
year in the Bronx and then up here in Westchester
in Millwood, which is about five miles from where I
live right now.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And your parents were both taught art. They were art teachers,
music teachers music.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, my dad was band teacher in Elmsford and my
mom was the choral teacher in Austining at Claremont School.
So my dad was forty two years my mom was
thirty eight years.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
There, how many siblings.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
You have one younger brother who is an actor as well.
He's out in LA he's four years younger.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Just one you and the brothers.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And both of you went into the arts.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yes, my brother he's done like Dodgeball, he's done Larry
David's HERBYR Enthusiasm.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Historical dramas. He's done historical dramas. Yeah, yes, Dodgeball, that's history.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, at it for a while. He's been
at it for a while. Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Now, why the East Coast for you?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I did live in the West Coast from eighty five to.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Ninety two because you were working.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I was working. I kind of left after having a
struggling here in New York, you know, after being Miss
America and then the scandal and then trying to you know,
make my way on Broadway. And I tell a story
in my book which is called You Have No Idea,
(02:31):
which basically is a chronicle of my recollection and my
mom's kind of side by side. In the book, I
talk about one particular instance where Mike Nichols was directing
Tommy Toon and Twiggy in My One and Only on Broadway,
and Mike Nichols reached out to me. He said he
wanted me to replace Twiggy because he knew that I
(02:52):
was a musical theater gal and met him, had a
wonderful meeting. Did the audition, Tommy taught me all the
tap did the audition went well, perfectly, left the theater,
and Mike turned around to Lee Gershwin, who was the
head of the estate in Irish Widow, and said, wasn't
(03:12):
she terrific? Thumbs up, and then he walked back downstage
and the phone was ringing by the time he got
to the bottom of the stage, and it was Lee
Gershwin who said to Mike Nichols, over my dead body,
will that horror be in my show? And that was
nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
The year after the incident.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, eighty four eighty five. They wanted me to go
in right after. So I didn't know exactly what she
had said. I knew that I didn't get it, but
I knew that I crushed the audition, and Paul Martino
was my agent at the time at ICM, so it
was kind of a soft not this time. But I
could feel like, Okay, this has nothing to do with talent.
This is way bigger and it's going to be much
(03:56):
harder than I anticipated.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, now that you've pivoted in direction, we were going
to get there. But no, no, no, no, no talking
about your Bucolic Westchester upbringing, and instead we're having Gershwin's
relatives calling you a whore.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Exactly stop there, now, hold on.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Let me catch up. But now that you bring it up,
on want to say you are someone who I'm a
great admirer of yours, and I want to back it
up a little bit, which is when you become Miss America.
So it's a national competition. I remember, these are a
Miss Universe contestants, where I always felt that the people
in these some of these foreign countries, because their countries
(04:34):
are so maybe economically know less advantage than America. You'd
see some of these women winning these awards in these
international competitions and you think they're going to choke to
death how much they're crying. They're like Oh my god,
they can't believe they've won. It's this big deal to them.
What was the roots of you becoming Miss America? Was
it a goal for you? What did you think it represented?
(04:55):
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, you talk about Bucolic roots, and the Miss America
pageant itself was a bathing suit pageant on the board
walk in Atlantic City back in the day, so and
it was still run by volunteers in Atlantic City yearly.
So it wasn't this huge, huge corporation and corporate thing.
(05:19):
And I only learned that once I ended up winning.
The roots of it was. I was a Syracuse musical
theater major. Aaron Sorkin was one of my classmates, by
the way, and my freshman year's your core year. You
can't do anything. So sophomore year I started performing. So
I was in the Golden Apple, I did Frank Lesser's
(05:41):
was Swinging on a Star. I was down at Syracuse
Stage was a repertory theater and they were doing a
production of a Syirran de Bergerac which I auditioned for
and I got the part of the Orange Girl, which
was a tiny little part, but it would have gotten
me equity points. So I was supposed to do that
after doing all these productions my sophomore year, and the
(06:05):
local Miss Syracuse pageant kind of scouts their talent at
the university. So a couple of board members had seen
me in shows and one of my friends a board member,
would you be interested in being in the Syracuse pageant?
I said, no, absolutely not. I don't do it. Syrah
No got canceled. I had April free. I called my
mom and said, listen, do you think I should do
(06:26):
this Syracuse pageant? Thing? Is their money? I said yes,
because I'd gotten scholarships the previous two years, and she said,
would go for it. So my parents didn't even come
to the pageant. I bought a bathing suit down at
Sibley's department store in downtown Syracuse.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
My cousin worked at Sibley's.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
You're kidding.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
My mom is from Syracuse, Okay, so that's where I
got my stuff, and I sang a song from my
performance class. My friend Tim Thayer played piano for me.
I did being Good Isn't Good Enough from Hallelujah Baby
that I'd performed in class, and I ended up winning
swimsuit Talent and I won Miss Greater Syracuse. So that
was April of my sophomore year. Then I was on
(07:05):
the way to States in July three months later, and
you know, I'm twenty years old and I sing the
same song where the same close and win that same
Tim's playing for me, the same deal and I win that.
So within three months, I'm already headed to Atlantic City
and the local pageant gal wants to change my song
(07:26):
to something more familiar, so I sang happy Days Are
Here again, the Barbie streis End version, got an upgrade
on my gown and swimsuit, and I ended up winning
all within six months. So I literally had no intention
of ever being Miss America, being in the pageant, and
here I was getting ready for my junior year abroad
(07:48):
in London, already put my down deposit, my girlfriend was,
my roommate was already waiting for me, and I ended
up winning. So my first question when I won was
now what do I do? And ah now and go
to London.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So if you're a super bright and talented woman and
you end up in that universe, not that there's anything
wrong with it, but you would like you said, what
do I do now? How soon after you were crowned.
Did the scandal.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Come, Well, it didn't come until I had been missing
America for ten months. I had literally two weeks vacation
and a month left. So but I think the biggest,
biggest jolt for me being a New Yorker at twenty
years old, living in Westchester, growing up in Westchester, you know,
being surrounded by different cultures and my parents living through
(08:39):
the civil rights movement, making a better life. For me,
that was the first time I really experienced racism on
a national level. And I guess, you know, being.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
In this, I want it because of the scandal or.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Both because I won. Because I won, This is no
scandal at all. This is just me being black at
twenty years old. September of nineteen eighty three, death threats.
When I had my welcome home parade here, they had
to have sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings because of
their threats like that. And again I was so, I
(09:11):
guess naive because I assumed that nineteen eighty three were
past all that stuff, and we lived in a world
at this moment assume. So that was a big slap
in the face and a big maturity kick in the pants.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
For me, Where was any moment, I mean maybe I'm naive,
but where was any moment of someone coming up to
you and saying, here's the negatives, here's the pictures you
can have. Just give me tickets to every show you're
in for the rest of your life. You know what
I mean? That type of thing.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Never one gesture, not even one gesture. It was all
a betrayal. I mean I never pretended that I was perfect.
I certainly I was a first Miss America that was
pro era, pro choice. So I was ruffling feathers from
the get go.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You mean you weren't a virgin when you were Miss America?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Exact Good God, I listened. So I think the betrayal
is what hurt me the most because again, growing up
in this small little town and a quick brief history
of how these pictures ever became. I used to have
the Pennysaber magazine, which we would look for summer jobs
(10:21):
in the summer. And one summer there was a modeling
registry in town, and not an agency that should have
been the first clue, but a registry. And I said, well,
let me go in and see whether I can be
a model of the summer and he said, well, it's
going to cost this amount of money for the picture's portfolio,
but I need a makeup artist, So if you want
to be a receptionist and a makeup artist for the shoots.
(10:42):
So that's what my summer job was. And ended up
getting convinced later on leter in the summer, you know what,
I've got an idea. I'd love to shoot you. Nobody
will see them, They'll be in silhouette, blah blah blah blah,
all that horseshit. Then after I win, apparently he started
shopping and I never saw fin a release for any
of these photos. So he started shopping them around, apparently
(11:05):
tried to reach out to my mother, which she doesn't remember.
Then he started shopping them around and he went to
Hugh Hefner first, and Hugh said do you have a release?
And he said no, and he said, well, I'm not
going to do that to this woman.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
How decent of you you.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And then he goes to Guccioni and Gucci was like,
hell yeah, bring him. So yeah, So that was so
the biggest shock was I went to Crown the Miss
New York in Watertown, New York Friday, the thirteenth of July,
and the New York Post called about Geraldine Ferrara and
wanted to know what I felt about her being the
first woman on the ticket great women power. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(11:43):
And he said, oh, by the way, I heard from
a reliable source that you're going to be on the
cover of Pentause magazine in September. And I was truly shocked.
I said, I have no idea what you're talking about.
He said, well, it's a really reliable source. I said,
I don't know what you're talking about. He said, okay,
then I want printed up with the phone call my
parents and I was like, I don't know what's going on,
(12:03):
but I need some help. And one of our family
friends became my lawyer, and then it all all the
shit hit the fan, and then I was given like
a two week decision whether they were going to take
the crown away or whether I wanted to resign. And
I had a whole continuency of people that wanted me
to fight for the crown. So when I the day
of my press conference, there were people saying fight for it,
(12:25):
fight with with I mean, it was it was insane.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And why didn't you because I just.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Wanted to get you know, move on, move on.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I mean this really upsets me because we all had
our times in the dunk tank here. How long did
the downtime last before you start to crawl out of
this and the wreckage of this and start to work again.
And who's calling you, who's reaching out to who's the
first person to say, come make a movie with me
or do a show with me.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Well, it took me ten years to get on Broadway.
So if the scandal hit in eighty four, in nineteen
ninety fours when I got a chance to be in
Case of the Spider Woman on Broadway, so that was
a good ten year with just then that was Cheeta
Rivera and I stepped in after her one year run
and she went on the road and I took over.
So that was glorious for me to finally say, Okay,
(13:14):
this is what I meant to be and this is
where I am. And my parents were just elated to
see me, you know, have my dream come true. But
prior to that, which is interesting, I'd gotten a lot
of a lot of inquiries for like crap or they
wanted to meet me just to say they could meet me.
So there's a lot of auditions that I went. I
(13:35):
was like, they're really not going to cast me. They
just want to say, oh, guess who we got in
the room today. I think the first thing I did
was a Partners in Crime which was which was with
Lonnie Anderson and Linda Carter and we shot it in
San Francisco and I was Roselle Robbins, who is a singer,
and I got a chance to record a couple songs
and do a number and stuff. So you know, they
(13:57):
were there were opportunities to kind of, you know, jump
on all the publicity that happening.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
In eighty four to ninety four? What did you do?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I did television. I did One Man Ban was an
off Broadway show Willa Shalatte. Jean Shallette's daughter was one
of the producers, and she and James Lucine was the
One Man Ban and they believed in me and said
we'll give you a shot. So that was off Broadway
and from there I went to la because it was
just I want to do theater and the doors were closed,
so you know, I was on TJ. Hooker. I did
(14:30):
the Love Boat, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You name it all My bread and Butter here exactly.
Know what's funny. In the brief time we've talked, you
remind me of Pacino. When I interviewed Pacino, I interviewed
him for school. In order to go back to ny
You and graduate, I had to do a term paper
about the applicability of method acting training to an actor
who still had a real career in film, TV and theater.
(14:54):
So I interview al for like eight or nine hours
at his house up in Westchester, and every time I
would talked about movies, he changed the subject. All you
want to talk was theater. Oh you want to talk
about his theater? Interesting? So you shit, you pivot to
theater all the time. That's where your heart is.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, that's where my training was, and that was my goal,
you know, growing up. But believe me, my recording has
kind of backdoored me into theater. And again being a
recording artist, I mean, nobody wanted to sign me, and
then when I got signed, you know, they would say, well,
the competition is really over here. So my whole career
(15:30):
is like, oh, I didn't know she could do that.
I didn't know she could do that? Right, And my
biggest hit, say the Best for a Last which was
number one on the charts for five weeks straight. Was
a song that Bett Middler and Barbara Streis and both
turned down there people, and I got it, and I said,
I'll take it. I don't know what it's not sloppy seconds,
(15:51):
I don't know what what thirds are, but I'll take
it because I knew that there was something there that
I can you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Our careers are built them the guy that passed on
the I can tell you the names of people that
passed on Hunt for Red October. But it's interesting to me. How,
by the way, do you teach you ever teach?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I teach you NYU, but I teach in their and
their vocal performance, songwriting.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yes, perfect, perfect perfect.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Well, when I would teach, I'd say to people, do anything,
do everything, don't be cute about it, don't be precious
about what you do. I was doing a soap opera
in New York and I would walk over to this,
you know, back in the Pleistocene era when we had
no Internet, and I would go over to the NYU
Film School to the casting board. It was a corkboard
with things pinned up there and would say, wanted actor
(16:35):
twenty to twenty five to play a bartender in this thing.
We're going to shoot Saturday and Sunday on the weekend.
This bar is closed and I was doing this soap opera.
I think it was kind of spotty in the beginning
of it. So I go on the weekends, I'm my
week to go do this movie and it's, you know,
this horrible independent film. But my point I say to
people is don't turn your nose upon anything when you're
(16:56):
first starting.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Absolutely, it makes you never know what skill set you'll
need to tap into on you know, when you get
a gig, you know, and meeting fascinating people and learning,
That's what I tell Never stop asking questions, never stop
learning and being curious, because that's exciting, but makes you
more exciting. It makes you life way more satisfying when
(17:20):
you know you haven't you know, you're at a dinner
party and you're talking to somebody that you never thought
you'd be able to talk to. And that's the great
thing about our profession. I've been lucky as Miss America.
I've met seven presidents in my lifetime already, and those
opportunities of going to the White House and dinner and
sitting in the receiving line when it was Reagan. Actually
(17:41):
that was the first big deal. When I was crowned,
Reagan called me and said it was a great thing
for our country. So that was like the first huge
moment of my reign as Miss America. But I remember
going to the White House dinner October eighteenth, nineteen eighty three,
and in the lineup was Ginger Rogers, Halston, Martha Graham
(18:02):
and I was like, oh my god, these are legends
and they were just you know. I sat next to
Sonny Jorgensen, the football player Jurgensen, Yes, yes, he was
at my table. My mother's like, get the president's autograph
on the menu, like a mom, and I did I have.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
She's there. That's why your mom's there, to remind you
of those things you've forgotten.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Exactly, Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
If you enjoy conversations with talented Broadway artists, check out
my episode with Audra McDonald's.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
No one thought that I could find her voice. What's
a soprano trying to be Billie Holiday. The show opens
and the first thing I do is sing, and you
can tell that the audience is waiting to hear. Is
she going to get it? And I would open my
mouth and sing the first All I know is I'm
in love with you. Sometimes I'd hear the audience gasp,
and that's when I'd be like, okay.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Aher.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Is zamin low.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
To hear more of my conversation with Aldra McDonald, go
to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Vanessa
Williams shares how Stephen Sondheim's work taught her an important
lesson about the type of art she wants to make.
(19:40):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing.
With her musical theater training, singing comes second nature to
Vanessa Williams. She's released eight albums as a recording artist.
Her track Colors of the Wind plays over the closing
credits of the Oscar winning soundtrack to Pocahontas, and this
(20:00):
is Williams with the number one single Saved the Best
for Last from her album The Comfort Zone.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
But that was sad Fish, just when a thought.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Sandcast you.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
The best flat.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I wanted to know how she got her start in
the recording industry.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Well, it was at Eckstein, who is Billy Eckstein's son.
He got a new deal and a new label part
of the PolyGram company back in the day. So he
was the one that believed in me because a lot
of people sounded thought that I sounded too Broadway or
just thought that it would be like a one hit wonder.
But he legitimately knew that I could have a singing career,
(20:56):
and he was really instrumental in getting you know, back then,
we had an r artists and repertoire, so you know,
great and curating songs, working with hungry young producers that
were eager to have their songs written and performed. And
so I really have to him and my ex husband,
who ended up he was my publicist when I was
(21:17):
resigned as Miss America. He then started to manage me
because I asked him because he was the only person
that I really trust that knew my talent but also
knew about me as my character and obviously loved me.
So it was the two of them that said, you know,
let's do this, Let's make her a legitimate recording artist.
And I had a great run on PolyGram and then
(21:38):
I've been I'm actually about to release It's been fifteen
years since my last album, but I'm releasing new music
in April, so back in the studio, dancing again, making
videos and making me feel young again. And actually the
song is called Legs, which is about which was inspired
by Diane Carroll wrote her book called The Legs of
(22:01):
the Last to Go. And I remember watching our Oprah
and she was talking about everything kind of decays and
falls and SAgs. But damn it, those legs are strong.
They're still holding me up. And there's still I can
still show them off in a mini skirt, and there's
still the last thing that I'm holding.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Onto that she had great legs. Yep, who played my
mother on thirty Rock Jesus Christ, look at her now.
Let me ask you this also, which is that you've
been married three times. But when you're someone who can
certainly take care of themselves and you're a tough woman,
you're smart, you're beautiful, you're talented, and you're tough, and
when you get married, why do you get married? Why?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Because I'm a romantic, I don't know. I do and
I think that I see the best and what I
can be and what we can be, and then I
get disappointed on the future that I thought it was
going to be and didn't turn out for it to
be as.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
My friend says, he goes, and then we turn the
lights on everything as it really is. Yes, Yes, it's
always like like when we get married, why did we
get married?
Speaker 6 (23:05):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Well, I think the marriage question is always for someone
who's as self sufficient as you, and I would imagine
me like you know, do I have needs emotionally? I
always think about it in this business because marriage is
so tough in this business. What was it like for
you as a mom?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Oh, I brought my kids everywhere, so I've got I've
got four kids. So I had my first three with
my first husband and then my last one with my
second husband. But I mean I got married so the scandal.
I was twenty as when I won Miss America twenty
one when the scandal hit. Ended up getting married at
twenty three, and partly not only because we were a unit,
(23:44):
my ex and I trying to build our life and
career together. But I that's what I could control. I
could control my family. I couldn't control my career. I
couldn't depend on people, something you can rely on exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So what kind of work did he do?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
He was a public He used to he was worked
at Rogers and Cowan back in the day.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I remember I was with Rogerson Cowan.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the first black senior
vice president back in the day that he was thirteen
years older than me. So my kids are very cringey
now they're like, oh, mom, how could you twenty one?
He was in his thirties.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
No, my son said the other day, he walks up
to me. I'm in bed, I'm just barely waking up.
My son wrote Maleo books, and he goes, Dad, are
you going to die? And I go, no, No, I'm
not going to die. I mean you have to lie
to them. And I go no, I'm not going to die.
He goes, but you're going to be like eighty five
and then you're going to die. I go, no, I'm
not going to die. I don't even think about that.
Then is a pause. He goes, could you give mom
(24:39):
your Apple pass code? Can I give mom my Apple pass?
How old does the arrange your kids? Now? They're how old?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So Melanie is thirty six, Jillian is thirty four, Devin
my son is thirty, and then Sasha is twenty three.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And we're three older ones. Are they in the biz?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So my oldest works in Westchester in the city's lot
his instructor. My middle is a singer and she gave
me a beautiful grandchild who I who's two years old.
And so she has her own career and her name
of her band is called Lion Babe. And my son
works out in LA he's in the fashion industry. And
(25:17):
then my youngest is writing music and she's got four
singles out on Apple and Spotify and all that stuff.
So two in the business and two not. But they're
all I'm really proud of them. And they're doing what
they love and doing what they're good at and and
I love having them home. That's the best.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
And are you finally after three trips to the plate here?
Are you finally done with this romantic thing of yours?
You are? I think?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I think I am done.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Boyfriends are good. Boyfriends are good.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Boyfriends are good, And I'm fine being by myself. I
travel so much. I have so many opportunities. I you know,
I would love is fun and exciting. Sex is great,
haven't had in years, but waiting for that to happen again.
But I you know, I don't have people throwing themselves
at me, propositioning me. It's not as it's not as
(26:11):
easy as you would think.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, but let me just say this also, which is
that with someone with your theater background and your great
success in the theater, have you ever thought about doing
a one woman show?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I have thought about it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Take credit for it. It's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Are you going to come on as producer?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
No kidding? You should. When Springsteen did that show and
you realize that the music is obviously there and what
people were waiting for what was he going to say
about his life and himself? And people would have died.
I mean, they love that Springsteen show. But for you
to be you and to combine those things, you singing
and you performing and then telling stories about all the
(26:50):
stuff you went through and where you want to know,
that would be a hit show.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, I have to. James Lepine asked me to do
Sonjam and Sonham in twenty ten, and that was the
format that it was mixed media. It was all interviews
of Sondheim and then you know, with us singing. And
one of the strongest moments in that show was when
they cut to Sondheim and he's talking about a telegram
(27:15):
was brought to his home and he opened it and
it was a letter from his mother saying, I'm about
to go into surgery for heart, my heart. I just
want to say, the only regret in my life was
giving birth to you. And you could hear and then
and then he said, and then I knew that it
wasn't about me. She couldn't give me love. It had
nothing to do with me. It had to do with her.
And then the stage starts to rotate, and we started saying,
(27:39):
careful the things you're saying, children will listen. And then
you hear the sobs of people just sniffling because you
realize those words turned into his art. He gave us
everything because of that, that relationship that he could never
crack that nut. So those are the I mean I want.
(28:01):
If I'm going to do a one woman show, I
want that moment. I want to be able to have
the audience in my hands so they can see my pain,
you know, turned into art. They can see my triumph
turned into art. So it's delicate, and it really is,
you know, a specific task.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Vanessa Williams. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend
and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on the
iHeartRadio apps Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts. When
we come back, Vanessa Williams shares with us the joy
of working with Sir Elton John. I'm Alec Baldwin and
(28:54):
you're listening to Here's the Thing. Theater and music are
not Vanessa williams only strengths. The Triple Threat has also
been featured in over one hundred TV and film roles,
highlighting her impressive range. I wanted her to share how
she approached her different roles on Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Well, Ugly Betty was one of those shows where we
were going to be a Friday night kind of for
chicks because they didn't really believe that we had what
it took. And we did the TCAs the Television Critics
Awards panel, and after we finish our panel in Pasadena, Yeah,
in Pasadena, and they said Ugly Betty, they said, you
(29:38):
guys are the hit of the season. You guys are
the best thing that we've seen. So we knew that
the critics liked us. And then when we finally when
we got so much momentum, they turned they changed us
to Thursday night, right before A Gray's Anatomy, and that
kind of gave us. Yeah, that blew us up, and
we won the Golden Globe that year. But we you know,
it was like doing a feature film every episode because
(29:59):
we had so much production value and costumes and runways
and all kinds of fantastical stuff. It was long Friturdays,
Fridays turning into Saturdays. But we loved it, and we
loved each other, and we loved our script readings. As
we never knew, especially I never knew what I was
going to be doing the following week. What I'm pitching
(30:21):
to Naomi Campbell and a softball game. What I'm taking
a baseball bat and smashing, you know, Mannekins on the
roof of some here. Oh, I'm having a Yes, this
is ugly, Betty. So it was amazing. So then going
by the time I got to Desperate Housewives, and the
reason I got on Desperate Housewives is I was doing
(30:44):
sondheim'd Sondheim and Mark Cherry is a huge Sondheim fan,
so much so that every episode of Desperate Housewives is
a Sondheim song. That's how big it is. It. Yeah,
so so he saw me and Sondheim, Sanaima and Sondheim
and then I got a call like a week later,
would she like to join our cast? And Nicolette was
(31:07):
already gone.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
They needed a cast edition, so you come and you
shoot that. And I worshiped Felicity. I mean, I just
love Felicity to death.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Love her too.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I did a movie with Terry Hatcher. She came in
to play Eric Roberts's wife, and you found out she
was the drug lord in the operation. I played a
copp that was based on this famous book called Heavens
Prisoners that Phil Juano directed, and she was the villainous
and none of us thought that she would really be
able to get there in terms of the extremes of
intensity and ugliness. And she was good. She was damn good.
(31:38):
She came in there and she was ready to hit
and be hit and fight, and she was scrappy. And
we did this movie, Heavens Prisoners, and Terry was damn
good in that movie, and I wanted to do a
project with Felicity. How different was that experience?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
You know? I came in and they called me Switzerland
because I had no beef with anybody, so I was
friendly with everybody. I had worked with Terry Hatcher previously
because we used to do these radio shack commercials back
in the day. So it was Terry and Howie Long
and me and Ving Rams the black and the White couple,
(32:13):
and we would do, you know, product commercials for the
radio shack together. So that's I knew her from back
in the day. But it was easy and talking about clockwork,
absolute in and out. Craziest days. Mark would come and
give us pretty much line readings across the board and
then take off to the writer's room, so we all
(32:33):
knew what was going on, even though their mar yes,
very very hands on, you.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Only do that? Are you recurring? A couple of years
of recurring on that show?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Was I was a regular for two seasons and then
they were killed. I guess no, no, no, I got
married and then the show got killed.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
You got married.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I got one of the.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
What are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I Am about to go across the pond to do
devilwares Prada on the West End.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I've read that.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, So Jerry Mitchell is directing and doing the choreography,
and Elton John's writing the music and he wrote two
songs for me already which is incredible, and it's all
British cast over there and we're at the Dominion Theater.
We open our.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
First player, Rand Priestley.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, I am yeah. October twenty fourth we start and
I'll be there for at least for a year. We're
doing our out of town in Plymouth, which I guess
is the southwest portion of England. So we're out of
town end of June through mid August.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
So this is they're workshopping this and working this is new.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, you're going to create this role? Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:43):
What is greater? What is more powerful and more? The
thing you want in this business, the one thing you
especially if you can sing like you and dance? You
want to create a role in originated role? How lucky
are you?
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Did you flip that when they told you that?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Well, I knew that. Jerry kind of gave me a
heads up. They had done a production in Chicago a
couple of years ago and it did not do well
at all. Different cast, different director, and Kevin McCollum, the producer,
called in Jerry and said, listen, I needed to see this.
I needed to help me out. What do you think?
And Jerry said, I will do it, but I want
(34:21):
complete control whole new team, and I want to make
sure that Elton will write me some new music. And
Elton was doing the Yellowpic road tour at the time,
so he was, you know, really really busy, but he
promised and he did. So I had demos of Elton,
you know, singing the new stuff, and then I got
a chance to hear Jerry's vision. And then when we're
(34:42):
in the room for two weeks, Elton was so happy.
He said, I wanted to kill myself in Chicago. Now
I'm really really happy, and just like, you know, just
to give a little smidgeon of what it's going to
look like. So Jerry said, in the other production there
was no fashion, and it's about the world of fashion.
So he's got all these built in runway production numbers
(35:03):
happening and act too. When Miranda goes to Paris and
they're trying to oust her, there's a song that she
sings called stay on Top. And we haven't obviously, we
haven't staged it yet, but he told me that what
he's gonna do is he has got a passer oul
in front of the stage and we will be sitting
as if we're sitting and watching a runway show, and
(35:24):
I'll have my glasses on and he's going to have
the girls start and then have everybody freeze and have
me start. You think that I can't see you sitting
there with glee, eager for the ending you've been waiting
years to see. Today she's getting ousted. Yes, her final
hour's nigh. Miranda's rain has run its course, that's.
Speaker 6 (35:47):
What you think, oh my, And then it goes into
like a total banger, and it's like this techno, it's
going to be incredible.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Now I want to say, my god, I mean, here
you are. It brings me to tears. Almost here you
are having to deal with because when all of us
deal with something painful in your career, when you fall down,
they watch you fall down, but the first words out
of their mouth after them is what's she going to do?
I mean, I remember Michelle Pfeiffer had that great quote.
She said, the acting's free. You pay me for all
(36:19):
the other crap I got to put up with, you know,
And I'm sure other people have said that. But when
they knock you down, then they look at you and
they're like, what's she going to do? And to think
that you're about to go do this project, this great,
great project? Are they talking it all about when the
opening would be. What month in the fall.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
The opening night is December first, and that's that coincides
with Elton's Big Aide benefit ball. So we're doing a
command performance for that, but in London, in London at
the Dominion. Yeah, but our first shows are October twenty fourth.
We start at the Dominion. Yeah, I'm going to yemp it,
(36:58):
come come.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Any I want to say thank you. I am a
huge fan of yours. I'm a huge fan of yours.
You are this incredibly talented. You're such a bright and
interesting and beyond your physical beauty, you're just such a
great actress.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And we're fellow board members too. I see you at
the Roundabout board all of our boards staff. Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
You but you're but I wish you the best of
luck with us. When do you leave your head over there?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
When mid May we start rehearsals.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Thank you so much, my great pleasure.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Thank you, thank you, Alec, thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
My thanks to Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
This episode was produced by Kathleen Brusso, Zach Macnice, and
Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media
manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the Thing is recorded at
CDM Studios in New York. I'm ALC. Baldwin. Here's the
Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart Radio. If I were to share with
you the greatest show business comeback story in history, you
might not believe it, but it's all true. My guest
today was the very first black woman to be crowned
Miss America, only to resign following the release of unauthorized
(00:27):
nude photos. In the years after the scandal, she reinvented herself,
building an impressive and decorated career. She released chart topping music,
performed on Broadway, and starred in television and film. It
could only be Vanessa Williams. Her work has earned her
(00:47):
three Emmy nominations, eleven Grammy nominations, and a Tony nomination.
She's the recipient of a Billboard Music Award and multiple
NAACP Image Awards. I wanted to know how her upbringing
in New York affected her trajectory and her goals.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I was born in Tarrytown. I grew up in one
year in the Bronx and then up here in Westchester
in Millwood, which is about five miles from where I
live right now.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
And your parents were both taught art. They were art teachers,
music teachers music.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, my dad was band teacher in Elmsford and my
mom was the choral teacher in Austining at Claremont School.
So my dad was forty two years my mom was
thirty eight years.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
There, how many siblings.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
You have one younger brother who is an actor as well.
He's out in LA he's four years younger.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Just one you and the brothers.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And both of you went into the arts.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yes, my brother he's done like Dodgeball, he's done Larry
David's HERBYR Enthusiasm.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Historical dramas. He's done historical dramas. Yeah, yes, Dodgeball, that's history.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, at it for a while. He's been
at it for a while. Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Now, why the East Coast for you?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I did live in the West Coast from eighty five to.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Ninety two because you were working.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I was working. I kind of left after having a
struggling here in New York, you know, after being Miss
America and then the scandal and then trying to you know,
make my way on Broadway. And I tell a story
in my book which is called You Have No Idea,
(02:31):
which basically is a chronicle of my recollection and my
mom's kind of side by side. In the book, I
talk about one particular instance where Mike Nichols was directing
Tommy Toon and Twiggy in My One and Only on Broadway,
and Mike Nichols reached out to me. He said he
wanted me to replace Twiggy because he knew that I
(02:52):
was a musical theater gal and met him, had a
wonderful meeting. Did the audition, Tommy taught me all the
tap did the audition went well, perfectly, left the theater,
and Mike turned around to Lee Gershwin, who was the
head of the estate in Irish Widow, and said, wasn't
(03:12):
she terrific? Thumbs up, and then he walked back downstage
and the phone was ringing by the time he got
to the bottom of the stage, and it was Lee
Gershwin who said to Mike Nichols, over my dead body,
will that horror be in my show? And that was
nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
The year after the incident.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, eighty four eighty five. They wanted me to go
in right after. So I didn't know exactly what she
had said. I knew that I didn't get it, but
I knew that I crushed the audition, and Paul Martino
was my agent at the time at ICM, so it
was kind of a soft not this time. But I
could feel like, Okay, this has nothing to do with talent.
This is way bigger and it's going to be much
(03:56):
harder than I anticipated.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, now that you've pivoted in direction, we were going
to get there. But no, no, no, no, no talking
about your Bucolic Westchester upbringing, and instead we're having Gershwin's
relatives calling you a whore.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Exactly stop there, now, hold on.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Let me catch up. But now that you bring it up,
on want to say you are someone who I'm a
great admirer of yours, and I want to back it
up a little bit, which is when you become Miss America.
So it's a national competition. I remember, these are a
Miss Universe contestants, where I always felt that the people
in these some of these foreign countries, because their countries
(04:34):
are so maybe economically know less advantage than America. You'd
see some of these women winning these awards in these
international competitions and you think they're going to choke to
death how much they're crying. They're like Oh my god,
they can't believe they've won. It's this big deal to them.
What was the roots of you becoming Miss America? Was
it a goal for you? What did you think it represented?
(04:55):
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, you talk about Bucolic roots, and the Miss America
pageant itself was a bathing suit pageant on the board
walk in Atlantic City back in the day, so and
it was still run by volunteers in Atlantic City yearly.
So it wasn't this huge, huge corporation and corporate thing.
(05:19):
And I only learned that once I ended up winning.
The roots of it was. I was a Syracuse musical
theater major. Aaron Sorkin was one of my classmates, by
the way, and my freshman year's your core year. You
can't do anything. So sophomore year I started performing. So
I was in the Golden Apple, I did Frank Lesser's
(05:41):
was Swinging on a Star. I was down at Syracuse
Stage was a repertory theater and they were doing a
production of a Syirran de Bergerac which I auditioned for
and I got the part of the Orange Girl, which
was a tiny little part, but it would have gotten
me equity points. So I was supposed to do that
after doing all these productions my sophomore year, and the
(06:05):
local Miss Syracuse pageant kind of scouts their talent at
the university. So a couple of board members had seen
me in shows and one of my friends a board member,
would you be interested in being in the Syracuse pageant?
I said, no, absolutely not. I don't do it. Syrah
No got canceled. I had April free. I called my
mom and said, listen, do you think I should do
(06:26):
this Syracuse pageant? Thing? Is their money? I said yes,
because I'd gotten scholarships the previous two years, and she said,
would go for it. So my parents didn't even come
to the pageant. I bought a bathing suit down at
Sibley's department store in downtown Syracuse.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
My cousin worked at Sibley's.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
You're kidding.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
My mom is from Syracuse, Okay, so that's where I
got my stuff, and I sang a song from my
performance class. My friend Tim Thayer played piano for me.
I did being Good Isn't Good Enough from Hallelujah Baby
that I'd performed in class, and I ended up winning
swimsuit Talent and I won Miss Greater Syracuse. So that
was April of my sophomore year. Then I was on
(07:05):
the way to States in July three months later, and
you know, I'm twenty years old and I sing the
same song where the same close and win that same
Tim's playing for me, the same deal and I win that.
So within three months, I'm already headed to Atlantic City
and the local pageant gal wants to change my song
(07:26):
to something more familiar, so I sang happy Days Are
Here again, the Barbie streis End version, got an upgrade
on my gown and swimsuit, and I ended up winning
all within six months. So I literally had no intention
of ever being Miss America, being in the pageant, and
here I was getting ready for my junior year abroad
(07:48):
in London, already put my down deposit, my girlfriend was,
my roommate was already waiting for me, and I ended
up winning. So my first question when I won was
now what do I do? And ah now and go
to London.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So if you're a super bright and talented woman and
you end up in that universe, not that there's anything
wrong with it, but you would like you said, what
do I do now? How soon after you were crowned.
Did the scandal.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Come, Well, it didn't come until I had been missing
America for ten months. I had literally two weeks vacation
and a month left. So but I think the biggest,
biggest jolt for me being a New Yorker at twenty
years old, living in Westchester, growing up in Westchester, you know,
being surrounded by different cultures and my parents living through
(08:39):
the civil rights movement, making a better life. For me,
that was the first time I really experienced racism on
a national level. And I guess, you know, being.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
In this, I want it because of the scandal or.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Both because I won. Because I won, This is no
scandal at all. This is just me being black at
twenty years old. September of nineteen eighty three, death threats.
When I had my welcome home parade here, they had
to have sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings because of
their threats like that. And again I was so, I
(09:11):
guess naive because I assumed that nineteen eighty three were
past all that stuff, and we lived in a world
at this moment assume. So that was a big slap
in the face and a big maturity kick in the pants.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
For me, Where was any moment, I mean maybe I'm naive,
but where was any moment of someone coming up to
you and saying, here's the negatives, here's the pictures you
can have. Just give me tickets to every show you're
in for the rest of your life. You know what
I mean? That type of thing.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Never one gesture, not even one gesture. It was all
a betrayal. I mean I never pretended that I was perfect.
I certainly I was a first Miss America that was
pro era, pro choice. So I was ruffling feathers from
the get go.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You mean you weren't a virgin when you were Miss America?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Exact Good God, I listened. So I think the betrayal
is what hurt me the most because again, growing up
in this small little town and a quick brief history
of how these pictures ever became. I used to have
the Pennysaber magazine, which we would look for summer jobs
(10:21):
in the summer. And one summer there was a modeling
registry in town, and not an agency that should have
been the first clue, but a registry. And I said, well,
let me go in and see whether I can be
a model of the summer and he said, well, it's
going to cost this amount of money for the picture's portfolio,
but I need a makeup artist, So if you want
to be a receptionist and a makeup artist for the shoots.
(10:42):
So that's what my summer job was. And ended up
getting convinced later on leter in the summer, you know what,
I've got an idea. I'd love to shoot you. Nobody
will see them, They'll be in silhouette, blah blah blah blah,
all that horseshit. Then after I win, apparently he started
shopping and I never saw fin a release for any
of these photos. So he started shopping them around, apparently
(11:05):
tried to reach out to my mother, which she doesn't remember.
Then he started shopping them around and he went to
Hugh Hefner first, and Hugh said do you have a release?
And he said no, and he said, well, I'm not
going to do that to this woman.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
How decent of you you.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And then he goes to Guccioni and Gucci was like,
hell yeah, bring him. So yeah, So that was so
the biggest shock was I went to Crown the Miss
New York in Watertown, New York Friday, the thirteenth of July,
and the New York Post called about Geraldine Ferrara and
wanted to know what I felt about her being the
first woman on the ticket great women power. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(11:43):
And he said, oh, by the way, I heard from
a reliable source that you're going to be on the
cover of Pentause magazine in September. And I was truly shocked.
I said, I have no idea what you're talking about.
He said, well, it's a really reliable source. I said,
I don't know what you're talking about. He said, okay,
then I want printed up with the phone call my
parents and I was like, I don't know what's going on,
(12:03):
but I need some help. And one of our family
friends became my lawyer, and then it all all the
shit hit the fan, and then I was given like
a two week decision whether they were going to take
the crown away or whether I wanted to resign. And
I had a whole continuency of people that wanted me
to fight for the crown. So when I the day
of my press conference, there were people saying fight for it,
(12:25):
fight with with I mean, it was it was insane.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And why didn't you because I just.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Wanted to get you know, move on, move on.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I mean this really upsets me because we all had
our times in the dunk tank here. How long did
the downtime last before you start to crawl out of
this and the wreckage of this and start to work again.
And who's calling you, who's reaching out to who's the
first person to say, come make a movie with me
or do a show with me.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Well, it took me ten years to get on Broadway.
So if the scandal hit in eighty four, in nineteen
ninety fours when I got a chance to be in
Case of the Spider Woman on Broadway, so that was
a good ten year with just then that was Cheeta
Rivera and I stepped in after her one year run
and she went on the road and I took over.
So that was glorious for me to finally say, Okay,
(13:14):
this is what I meant to be and this is
where I am. And my parents were just elated to
see me, you know, have my dream come true. But
prior to that, which is interesting, I'd gotten a lot
of a lot of inquiries for like crap or they
wanted to meet me just to say they could meet me.
So there's a lot of auditions that I went. I
(13:35):
was like, they're really not going to cast me. They
just want to say, oh, guess who we got in
the room today. I think the first thing I did
was a Partners in Crime which was which was with
Lonnie Anderson and Linda Carter and we shot it in
San Francisco and I was Roselle Robbins, who is a singer,
and I got a chance to record a couple songs
and do a number and stuff. So you know, they
(13:57):
were there were opportunities to kind of, you know, jump
on all the publicity that happening.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
In eighty four to ninety four? What did you do?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I did television. I did One Man Ban was an
off Broadway show Willa Shalatte. Jean Shallette's daughter was one
of the producers, and she and James Lucine was the
One Man Ban and they believed in me and said
we'll give you a shot. So that was off Broadway
and from there I went to la because it was
just I want to do theater and the doors were closed,
so you know, I was on TJ. Hooker. I did
(14:30):
the Love Boat, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You name it all My bread and Butter here exactly.
Know what's funny. In the brief time we've talked, you
remind me of Pacino. When I interviewed Pacino, I interviewed
him for school. In order to go back to ny
You and graduate, I had to do a term paper
about the applicability of method acting training to an actor
who still had a real career in film, TV and theater.
(14:54):
So I interview al for like eight or nine hours
at his house up in Westchester, and every time I
would talked about movies, he changed the subject. All you
want to talk was theater. Oh you want to talk
about his theater? Interesting? So you shit, you pivot to
theater all the time. That's where your heart is.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Well, that's where my training was, and that was my goal,
you know, growing up. But believe me, my recording has
kind of backdoored me into theater. And again being a
recording artist, I mean, nobody wanted to sign me, and
then when I got signed, you know, they would say, well,
the competition is really over here. So my whole career
(15:30):
is like, oh, I didn't know she could do that.
I didn't know she could do that? Right, And my
biggest hit, say the Best for a Last which was
number one on the charts for five weeks straight. Was
a song that Bett Middler and Barbara Streis and both
turned down there people, and I got it, and I said,
I'll take it. I don't know what it's not sloppy seconds,
(15:51):
I don't know what what thirds are, but I'll take
it because I knew that there was something there that
I can you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Our careers are built them the guy that passed on
the I can tell you the names of people that
passed on Hunt for Red October. But it's interesting to me. How,
by the way, do you teach you ever teach?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I teach you NYU, but I teach in their and
their vocal performance, songwriting.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yes, perfect, perfect perfect.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Well, when I would teach, I'd say to people, do anything,
do everything, don't be cute about it, don't be precious
about what you do. I was doing a soap opera
in New York and I would walk over to this,
you know, back in the Pleistocene era when we had
no Internet, and I would go over to the NYU
Film School to the casting board. It was a corkboard
with things pinned up there and would say, wanted actor
(16:35):
twenty to twenty five to play a bartender in this thing.
We're going to shoot Saturday and Sunday on the weekend.
This bar is closed and I was doing this soap opera.
I think it was kind of spotty in the beginning
of it. So I go on the weekends, I'm my
week to go do this movie and it's, you know,
this horrible independent film. But my point I say to
people is don't turn your nose upon anything when you're
(16:56):
first starting.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Absolutely, it makes you never know what skill set you'll
need to tap into on you know, when you get
a gig, you know, and meeting fascinating people and learning,
That's what I tell Never stop asking questions, never stop
learning and being curious, because that's exciting, but makes you
more exciting. It makes you life way more satisfying when
(17:20):
you know you haven't you know, you're at a dinner
party and you're talking to somebody that you never thought
you'd be able to talk to. And that's the great
thing about our profession. I've been lucky as Miss America.
I've met seven presidents in my lifetime already, and those
opportunities of going to the White House and dinner and
sitting in the receiving line when it was Reagan. Actually
(17:41):
that was the first big deal. When I was crowned,
Reagan called me and said it was a great thing
for our country. So that was like the first huge
moment of my reign as Miss America. But I remember
going to the White House dinner October eighteenth, nineteen eighty three,
and in the lineup was Ginger Rogers, Halston, Martha Graham
(18:02):
and I was like, oh my god, these are legends
and they were just you know. I sat next to
Sonny Jorgensen, the football player Jurgensen, Yes, yes, he was
at my table. My mother's like, get the president's autograph
on the menu, like a mom, and I did I have.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
She's there. That's why your mom's there, to remind you
of those things you've forgotten.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Exactly, Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
If you enjoy conversations with talented Broadway artists, check out
my episode with Audra McDonald's.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
No one thought that I could find her voice. What's
a soprano trying to be Billie Holiday. The show opens
and the first thing I do is sing, and you
can tell that the audience is waiting to hear. Is
she going to get it? And I would open my
mouth and sing the first All I know is I'm
in love with you. Sometimes I'd hear the audience gasp,
and that's when I'd be like, okay.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Aher.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Is zamin low.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
To hear more of my conversation with Aldra McDonald, go
to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Vanessa
Williams shares how Stephen Sondheim's work taught her an important
lesson about the type of art she wants to make.
(19:40):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing.
With her musical theater training, singing comes second nature to
Vanessa Williams. She's released eight albums as a recording artist.
Her track Colors of the Wind plays over the closing
credits of the Oscar winning soundtrack to Pocahontas, and this
(20:00):
is Williams with the number one single Saved the Best
for Last from her album The Comfort Zone.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
But that was sad Fish, just when a thought.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Sandcast you.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
The best flat.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I wanted to know how she got her start in
the recording industry.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Well, it was at Eckstein, who is Billy Eckstein's son.
He got a new deal and a new label part
of the PolyGram company back in the day. So he
was the one that believed in me because a lot
of people sounded thought that I sounded too Broadway or
just thought that it would be like a one hit wonder.
But he legitimately knew that I could have a singing career,
(20:56):
and he was really instrumental in getting you know, back then,
we had an r artists and repertoire, so you know,
great and curating songs, working with hungry young producers that
were eager to have their songs written and performed. And
so I really have to him and my ex husband,
who ended up he was my publicist when I was
(21:17):
resigned as Miss America. He then started to manage me
because I asked him because he was the only person
that I really trust that knew my talent but also
knew about me as my character and obviously loved me.
So it was the two of them that said, you know,
let's do this, Let's make her a legitimate recording artist.
And I had a great run on PolyGram and then
(21:38):
I've been I'm actually about to release It's been fifteen
years since my last album, but I'm releasing new music
in April, so back in the studio, dancing again, making
videos and making me feel young again. And actually the
song is called Legs, which is about which was inspired
by Diane Carroll wrote her book called The Legs of
(22:01):
the Last to Go. And I remember watching our Oprah
and she was talking about everything kind of decays and
falls and SAgs. But damn it, those legs are strong.
They're still holding me up. And there's still I can
still show them off in a mini skirt, and there's
still the last thing that I'm holding.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Onto that she had great legs. Yep, who played my
mother on thirty Rock Jesus Christ, look at her now.
Let me ask you this also, which is that you've
been married three times. But when you're someone who can
certainly take care of themselves and you're a tough woman,
you're smart, you're beautiful, you're talented, and you're tough, and
when you get married, why do you get married? Why?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Because I'm a romantic, I don't know. I do and
I think that I see the best and what I
can be and what we can be, and then I
get disappointed on the future that I thought it was
going to be and didn't turn out for it to
be as.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
My friend says, he goes, and then we turn the
lights on everything as it really is. Yes, Yes, it's
always like like when we get married, why did we
get married?
Speaker 6 (23:05):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Well, I think the marriage question is always for someone
who's as self sufficient as you, and I would imagine
me like you know, do I have needs emotionally? I
always think about it in this business because marriage is
so tough in this business. What was it like for
you as a mom?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Oh, I brought my kids everywhere, so I've got I've
got four kids. So I had my first three with
my first husband and then my last one with my
second husband. But I mean I got married so the scandal.
I was twenty as when I won Miss America twenty
one when the scandal hit. Ended up getting married at
twenty three, and partly not only because we were a unit,
(23:44):
my ex and I trying to build our life and
career together. But I that's what I could control. I
could control my family. I couldn't control my career. I
couldn't depend on people, something you can rely on exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So what kind of work did he do?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
He was a public He used to he was worked
at Rogers and Cowan back in the day.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I remember I was with Rogerson Cowan.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the first black senior
vice president back in the day that he was thirteen
years older than me. So my kids are very cringey
now they're like, oh, mom, how could you twenty one?
He was in his thirties.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
No, my son said the other day, he walks up
to me. I'm in bed, I'm just barely waking up.
My son wrote Maleo books, and he goes, Dad, are
you going to die? And I go, no, No, I'm
not going to die. I mean you have to lie
to them. And I go no, I'm not going to die.
He goes, but you're going to be like eighty five
and then you're going to die. I go, no, I'm
not going to die. I don't even think about that.
Then is a pause. He goes, could you give mom
(24:39):
your Apple pass code? Can I give mom my Apple pass?
How old does the arrange your kids? Now? They're how old?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So Melanie is thirty six, Jillian is thirty four, Devin
my son is thirty, and then Sasha is twenty three.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And we're three older ones. Are they in the biz?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So my oldest works in Westchester in the city's lot
his instructor. My middle is a singer and she gave
me a beautiful grandchild who I who's two years old.
And so she has her own career and her name
of her band is called Lion Babe. And my son
works out in LA he's in the fashion industry. And
(25:17):
then my youngest is writing music and she's got four
singles out on Apple and Spotify and all that stuff.
So two in the business and two not. But they're
all I'm really proud of them. And they're doing what
they love and doing what they're good at and and
I love having them home. That's the best.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
And are you finally after three trips to the plate here?
Are you finally done with this romantic thing of yours?
You are? I think?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I think I am done.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Boyfriends are good. Boyfriends are good.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Boyfriends are good, And I'm fine being by myself. I
travel so much. I have so many opportunities. I you know,
I would love is fun and exciting. Sex is great,
haven't had in years, but waiting for that to happen again.
But I you know, I don't have people throwing themselves
at me, propositioning me. It's not as it's not as
(26:11):
easy as you would think.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, but let me just say this also, which is
that with someone with your theater background and your great
success in the theater, have you ever thought about doing
a one woman show?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I have thought about it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Take credit for it. It's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Are you going to come on as producer?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
No kidding? You should. When Springsteen did that show and
you realize that the music is obviously there and what
people were waiting for what was he going to say
about his life and himself? And people would have died.
I mean, they love that Springsteen show. But for you
to be you and to combine those things, you singing
and you performing and then telling stories about all the
(26:50):
stuff you went through and where you want to know,
that would be a hit show.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, I have to. James Lepine asked me to do
Sonjam and Sonham in twenty ten, and that was the
format that it was mixed media. It was all interviews
of Sondheim and then you know, with us singing. And
one of the strongest moments in that show was when
they cut to Sondheim and he's talking about a telegram
(27:15):
was brought to his home and he opened it and
it was a letter from his mother saying, I'm about
to go into surgery for heart, my heart. I just
want to say, the only regret in my life was
giving birth to you. And you could hear and then
and then he said, and then I knew that it
wasn't about me. She couldn't give me love. It had
nothing to do with me. It had to do with her.
And then the stage starts to rotate, and we started saying,
(27:39):
careful the things you're saying, children will listen. And then
you hear the sobs of people just sniffling because you
realize those words turned into his art. He gave us
everything because of that, that relationship that he could never
crack that nut. So those are the I mean I want.
(28:01):
If I'm going to do a one woman show, I
want that moment. I want to be able to have
the audience in my hands so they can see my pain,
you know, turned into art. They can see my triumph
turned into art. So it's delicate, and it really is,
you know, a specific task.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Vanessa Williams. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend
and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on the
iHeartRadio apps Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts. When
we come back, Vanessa Williams shares with us the joy
of working with Sir Elton John. I'm Alec Baldwin and
(28:54):
you're listening to Here's the Thing. Theater and music are
not Vanessa williams only strengths. The Triple Threat has also
been featured in over one hundred TV and film roles,
highlighting her impressive range. I wanted her to share how
she approached her different roles on Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Well, Ugly Betty was one of those shows where we
were going to be a Friday night kind of for
chicks because they didn't really believe that we had what
it took. And we did the TCAs the Television Critics
Awards panel, and after we finish our panel in Pasadena, Yeah,
in Pasadena, and they said Ugly Betty, they said, you
(29:38):
guys are the hit of the season. You guys are
the best thing that we've seen. So we knew that
the critics liked us. And then when we finally when
we got so much momentum, they turned they changed us
to Thursday night, right before A Gray's Anatomy, and that
kind of gave us. Yeah, that blew us up, and
we won the Golden Globe that year. But we you know,
it was like doing a feature film every episode because
(29:59):
we had so much production value and costumes and runways
and all kinds of fantastical stuff. It was long Friturdays,
Fridays turning into Saturdays. But we loved it, and we
loved each other, and we loved our script readings. As
we never knew, especially I never knew what I was
going to be doing the following week. What I'm pitching
(30:21):
to Naomi Campbell and a softball game. What I'm taking
a baseball bat and smashing, you know, Mannekins on the
roof of some here. Oh, I'm having a Yes, this
is ugly, Betty. So it was amazing. So then going
by the time I got to Desperate Housewives, and the
reason I got on Desperate Housewives is I was doing
(30:44):
sondheim'd Sondheim and Mark Cherry is a huge Sondheim fan,
so much so that every episode of Desperate Housewives is
a Sondheim song. That's how big it is. It. Yeah,
so so he saw me and Sondheim, Sanaima and Sondheim
and then I got a call like a week later,
would she like to join our cast? And Nicolette was
(31:07):
already gone.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
They needed a cast edition, so you come and you
shoot that. And I worshiped Felicity. I mean, I just
love Felicity to death.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Love her too.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I did a movie with Terry Hatcher. She came in
to play Eric Roberts's wife, and you found out she
was the drug lord in the operation. I played a
copp that was based on this famous book called Heavens
Prisoners that Phil Juano directed, and she was the villainous
and none of us thought that she would really be
able to get there in terms of the extremes of
intensity and ugliness. And she was good. She was damn good.
(31:38):
She came in there and she was ready to hit
and be hit and fight, and she was scrappy. And
we did this movie, Heavens Prisoners, and Terry was damn
good in that movie, and I wanted to do a
project with Felicity. How different was that experience?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
You know? I came in and they called me Switzerland
because I had no beef with anybody, so I was
friendly with everybody. I had worked with Terry Hatcher previously
because we used to do these radio shack commercials back
in the day. So it was Terry and Howie Long
and me and Ving Rams the black and the White couple,
(32:13):
and we would do, you know, product commercials for the
radio shack together. So that's I knew her from back
in the day. But it was easy and talking about clockwork,
absolute in and out. Craziest days. Mark would come and
give us pretty much line readings across the board and
then take off to the writer's room, so we all
(32:33):
knew what was going on, even though their mar yes,
very very hands on, you.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Only do that? Are you recurring? A couple of years
of recurring on that show?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Was I was a regular for two seasons and then
they were killed. I guess no, no, no, I got
married and then the show got killed.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
You got married.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I got one of the.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
What are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I Am about to go across the pond to do
devilwares Prada on the West End.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I've read that.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, So Jerry Mitchell is directing and doing the choreography,
and Elton John's writing the music and he wrote two
songs for me already which is incredible, and it's all
British cast over there and we're at the Dominion Theater.
We open our.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
First player, Rand Priestley.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, I am yeah. October twenty fourth we start and
I'll be there for at least for a year. We're
doing our out of town in Plymouth, which I guess
is the southwest portion of England. So we're out of
town end of June through mid August.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
So this is they're workshopping this and working this is new.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, you're going to create this role? Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:43):
What is greater? What is more powerful and more? The
thing you want in this business, the one thing you
especially if you can sing like you and dance? You
want to create a role in originated role? How lucky
are you?
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Did you flip that when they told you that?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Well, I knew that. Jerry kind of gave me a
heads up. They had done a production in Chicago a
couple of years ago and it did not do well
at all. Different cast, different director, and Kevin McCollum, the producer,
called in Jerry and said, listen, I needed to see this.
I needed to help me out. What do you think?
And Jerry said, I will do it, but I want
(34:21):
complete control whole new team, and I want to make
sure that Elton will write me some new music. And
Elton was doing the Yellowpic road tour at the time,
so he was, you know, really really busy, but he
promised and he did. So I had demos of Elton,
you know, singing the new stuff, and then I got
a chance to hear Jerry's vision. And then when we're
(34:42):
in the room for two weeks, Elton was so happy.
He said, I wanted to kill myself in Chicago. Now
I'm really really happy, and just like, you know, just
to give a little smidgeon of what it's going to
look like. So Jerry said, in the other production there
was no fashion, and it's about the world of fashion.
So he's got all these built in runway production numbers
(35:03):
happening and act too. When Miranda goes to Paris and
they're trying to oust her, there's a song that she
sings called stay on Top. And we haven't obviously, we
haven't staged it yet, but he told me that what
he's gonna do is he has got a passer oul
in front of the stage and we will be sitting
as if we're sitting and watching a runway show, and
(35:24):
I'll have my glasses on and he's going to have
the girls start and then have everybody freeze and have
me start. You think that I can't see you sitting
there with glee, eager for the ending you've been waiting
years to see. Today she's getting ousted. Yes, her final
hour's nigh. Miranda's rain has run its course, that's.
Speaker 6 (35:47):
What you think, oh my, And then it goes into
like a total banger, and it's like this techno, it's
going to be incredible.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Now I want to say, my god, I mean, here
you are. It brings me to tears. Almost here you
are having to deal with because when all of us
deal with something painful in your career, when you fall down,
they watch you fall down, but the first words out
of their mouth after them is what's she going to do?
I mean, I remember Michelle Pfeiffer had that great quote.
She said, the acting's free. You pay me for all
(36:19):
the other crap I got to put up with, you know,
And I'm sure other people have said that. But when
they knock you down, then they look at you and
they're like, what's she going to do? And to think
that you're about to go do this project, this great,
great project? Are they talking it all about when the
opening would be. What month in the fall.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
The opening night is December first, and that's that coincides
with Elton's Big Aide benefit ball. So we're doing a
command performance for that, but in London, in London at
the Dominion. Yeah, but our first shows are October twenty fourth.
We start at the Dominion. Yeah, I'm going to yemp it,
(36:58):
come come.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Any I want to say thank you. I am a
huge fan of yours. I'm a huge fan of yours.
You are this incredibly talented. You're such a bright and
interesting and beyond your physical beauty, you're just such a
great actress.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And we're fellow board members too. I see you at
the Roundabout board all of our boards staff. Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
You but you're but I wish you the best of
luck with us. When do you leave your head over there?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
When mid May we start rehearsals.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Thank you so much, my great pleasure.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Thank you, thank you, Alec, thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
My thanks to Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
This episode was produced by Kathleen Brusso, Zach Macnice, and
Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media
manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the Thing is recorded at
CDM Studios in New York. I'm ALC. Baldwin. Here's the
Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio
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