Retiring on the Reg w/ Jillian Johnsrud #815

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had of Money.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking
about why you should retire on the reg with Jillian John's.

Speaker 3 (00:07):
Rude Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest

(00:28):
hurdles to overcome here in the United States, but not
just like in our country, but also even for regular
listeners on the podcast is the word retirement, because, like,
what do you think of when you hear that someone
is retiring, Like I know, I think of someone who's
maybe a bit older, they're at least past their prime,
They've put in several decades of hard work and now
they're just totally hanging it up. And then on top

(00:51):
of that, if you attempt to picture yourself in that situation,
I think it's often so far away that it's difficult
to even have any connection to that future version of yourself.
But these are the types of problems that our friend
Jillian loves to help walk folks through. She writes over
at retire often dot com, she hosts podcast by the
same name, and as a mother of a bunch of children,

(01:14):
Jillian herself grew up in poverty. She wants folks to
know that many retirement is more of a possibility than
you think. And so we're excited to talk about retiring
on the RAG. We're excited to talk about sabbaticals with
Jillian today. Jillian, thank you for joining the podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
We're excited to have you back. We were just talking
about how you were I think our first for real guests,
Uh huh had the money back in the day. This
was many, many years ago. Yeah, so it's fun to
get to talk to you again like this. But the
first question we won't link to that episode. I'm sure
Jillian had a lot of good things to say, but yeah, yeah,

(01:51):
I'm sure she did.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
But just given awkward, man, we were so fresh and
green at that point that it pains me to even
think about that conversation.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Hure percentury.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
So, Jilly, I don't even remember what you said when
we asked you this question, and I'm pretty sure we're
asking this question even if.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
I don't even know if you want I don't even know.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
But the question we ask now everybody who comes on
the show is what's your craft beer equivalent? What is
it that you are spending more money on than some
people would think is sane? While you're being smart and
saving and investing for your future at the same time.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
Yeah, that's gardening. It's plants. I go to nurseries and
home depot and lows and it's like it's pretend money.
It might as well be monopoly money. I don't even
think of it as real. The only limitation that I
put on myself when it comes to plants is I
have to eventually be able to plant them in the ground.

(02:40):
So like my physical labor is kind of the parameters
of how many how many plants I purchase. It's also
my stress purchasing, Like if I'm having a really bad week,
I go and buy seeds online or the I order trees.
It's also, yeah, kind of my impulse stress purchase.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
So, speaking of seeds, have you ever heard of or
ordered from, or been to. I think it's called Bakersfield
Seed Bank or something like that.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
It's out in.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
California and literally Kate and I were getting into gardening
when we were out there on a road trip and
it was literally an old timey bank. It's like this
like picture green gots that they converted into a seed bank,
and it was goblins run things there too. Yeah, yeah,
goblins with green pounds. But they've got like a lot
of heirloom varieties and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
I was on my phone yesterday and my mom's like,
are you looking at sheds? I was like, no, this
is my secret Instagram account that is just entirely plants
and gardeners. That's that's all I've curated over here.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
I love it. I love it. Okay.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
I feel like at least my wife and you, Jillian
could talk about plants all day.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
For sure. I certainly help her out. I think I
think some of the bigger holes.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
But we're going to talk about retiring, and let's start
with definitions. Retiring often that is such a passion of yours,
But what exact fact is it?

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Like what do you.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Define as a the frequency of retiring, and like what
do you how do you define many retirements specifically.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Especially because vacations, right, that's vacation many retirement.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Yeah, So I have kind of three parameters for what
classifies as a mini retirement, and I use the terms interchangeably.
Whether it's many retirements, sabbatical, career break, hiatus. All of
them are good. But the three things is that it's
a month or longer you're stepping away from your primary
career to focus on something that really matters to you.

(04:36):
And if you have those three elements, for my own
personal definition, I consider that a mini retirement.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay, So a vacation typically in the US at least
is like a week once a year, maybe twice a
year if you're one of the lucky folks. We Matt
and I lament about the statistics that most people don't
take all their vacation time. It's really it's really sad.
And if it's less, if it's a short period of time,
that typically means that you're not disconnecting from work in
the way you need to to kind of reset your

(05:05):
brain and get some actual rest. So is that part
of why the month is such an important parameter a
month or longer.

Speaker 4 (05:11):
Yeah, there's a kind of physical down shift to help
people get into that state of rest. And I find
when people are really burned out, you know, it's adrenaline
and it's cortisol, and they're running at this heightened state.
And just like taking caffeine, the minute you stop drinking

(05:31):
your coffee, the caffeine does not leave your system. You know,
there's a time period before you kind of start to
settle down. And it's the same with work. The minute
you walk out of the office, you're not completely self regulated.
So I find usually around week two or week three

(05:51):
people really start to relax and settle in. But a
month is also enough time to do something really significant
and interesting in with your time.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
So first of all, I love that you've defined the
fact that there's like a half life to your work.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Once you step away from it, just like there is
with Cavin.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
But on your podcast, like you've interviewed a whole lot
of folks about this, and I'm curious, like, what have
those folks mentioned as being I guess that maybe the
best part of their time stepping away, or maybe could
you share some good, just encouraging or inspirational examples of
what some folks were able to accomplish, or maybe some
life decisions that were made, or maybe they found.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Themselves out of just like kind of fork in the road.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I would love to for you to share some examples
from the folks that you've talked with on your podcast.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
Yeah. Absolutely, I have my podcast. I do one on
one end group coaching, so I get to have lots
and lots of these conversations and I always encourage people
to pick kind of three intentions or three goals for
their time, because there can be a temptation of I
have this huge backlog of things, and I'm going to
accomplish thirty different things during this time off, and because

(07:00):
you don't have that focus, none of it really feels
like you made good progress or really significant. So pick
kind of three. I would say the top ones are
extended travel, you know, things that you can't really do
in a four day or seven day vacation. I met
a couple ones who were biking through Croatia, like an

(07:21):
amazing trip, but it's not a four day weekend travel.
Extended travel, it's not doing something really cool and interesting
with their kids, having real quality time. You know. I
did a ten week trip in a pop up camper
through ten national parks with my kid. I was a
few years ago. There again, not something I can fit
in into two weeks vacation, but really significant. In America,

(07:46):
recovering from burnout rest burnout's a massive issue, so that
hits the top of a lot of people's priority focusing
on their health, whether that's losing weight or training for
a marathon, or even their mental health. You know, trying
to go to therapy and get some of that stuff
unpacked can be really helpful. A lot of people use

(08:09):
it for a career transition too, you know, they're in
that midpoint to their career where they're like, wait, am
I really going to do this for the rest of
my life? Like? Do I have another twenty years of
this in me? But when you're burned out and when
you're overwhelmed with work, it's really hard to imagine what
else is even out there, what else might you enjoy?

(08:33):
And so they need kind of that decompression time to
recover from burnout, to just have the creativity to explore
new options.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
So you kind of hinted at our work obsessed culture,
and it's just kind of a barrier, I would think,
just convincing people that this is a good idea. When
we're on this kind of Hampshire wheel merry go round,
it's kind of hard to just jump off. So do
you find that as an obstacle trying to people understand
that this is as a necessity in the first place.

Speaker 4 (09:03):
You know, I think a lot of people intuitively know
that they need a break or that they want to break.
It's not hard to convince someone of like, hey, would
you like to spend a month in France? Or you know,
do you do you want to buy a bike right
across the country or build out your garden for a month,

(09:24):
you know, whatever people are passionate about. And the reality is,
with our modern work culture, those hobbies, those interests, those
things that we want to pursue, those things that matter
to us sometimes get entirely squeezed out of life. There's
just not enough time. There's not enough hours in the day,

(09:45):
there's not enough vacation days to do those in meaningful ways,
which starts to exasperate this problem in that our work
occupies so much of our life that it becomes so
much of our identity and it's tough to build an
identity outside of work.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, I completely agree. We talk about this all the time.
How gosh, this makes me even think of something I
read recently too about work crushes and how they're like
very common because of course, when you are spending so
much time at work, it's like you have individuals that
you're drawn to. But that's like a whole other conversation.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Well, there's usually rules about that not dating in the workplace,
and people are like.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
What am I supposed to do? This is where I'm
spending most.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Of the You're spending all your time there, and so
it makes sense that, like relationally and emotionally, you feel
pulled in that direction. But of course when it comes
to your skill sets and the things that you are
spending your time doing, it makes sense that you get
really good at doing your job, and so it's hard
to disentangle like our identity from the work that we're doing.
But like, I think one of the reasons folks have

(10:46):
a hard time pulling away is because they're practically thinking, well,
if I prioritize a many retirement, that's going to hurt
my career. It's going to hurt my earning potential. What
would you say to somebody who's who's making that argument,
Because I don't know, maybe I'm leading the witness here,
but almost feel like that there's an argument to be
made for the opposite that perhaps because I mean, you've
already mentioned how they can foster career transition, but just

(11:09):
talk to us about that about career potential or just
the career path that someone might be on and trying
to escape that hamster wheel.

Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, it's interesting because it is a little counterintuitive, but
over and over I've seen the pattern of a mini
retirement accelerating their professional growth and accelerating their financial progress,
which it does feel a little counterintuitive, but on the
professional side, I think it's I think it's pretty well

(11:41):
known that one of the best ways to get a
twenty to thirty percent raise is to switch jobs, and
a mini retirement provides the perfect motivation and kind of
the perfect rest opportunity in between those jobs. So, especially
if you're early in your career and you're going to
be switching company every three or four years, that's a

(12:02):
perfect little little moment in time that you can take
a month or two to focus on these other areas
of your life. And there's a really interesting phenomenon that
I never would have guessed until I started having hundreds
of conversations with people about this. But it makes people
really uncomfortable when you're not working. There's something about the

(12:28):
work culture that it just feels wrong you not working,
them still working and you not working is very, very uncomfortable,
and sometimes it's subconscious. But when you step away from
a job and you don't jump into a brand new job,
a whole bunch of people start trying to get you

(12:50):
a job. They try to like fix this, whether you
want them to or not. Early retirees experience us all
of the time when like everyone and their network's trying
to suck them back into corporate life. But there's ways
that you can foster that as well, and oftentimes people
get much better jobs, I think because that cognitive loop

(13:14):
is open and where when jobs come open, they might
not think of you if you're happy at a company,
but if they're like, oh, isn't Joel off doing that thing?
What's he doing? He's in Europe right, he probably wants
to get back to work. Maybe we should give him
a call, and so you can kind of encourage his
natural phenomenon, and people oftentimes get much more interesting jobs,

(13:39):
jobs that they're better suited for, and better paying jobs.
I hung out with a friend in DC who had
just finished a mini retirement and two cool things about
this story. One, when he came back to work to
his new job, he had a fifty percent raise over

(14:02):
his previous job. Wow, he had taken a year off.
His sign on bonus covered like half of the cost
of his mani retirement. But the other thing was interesting
during that time off, he rested, he recovered, he did hobbies,
all of that, but he also explored other career options
and then started taking classes and getting the certifications that
he would need to pivot into a new career and

(14:25):
did it well enough that he got a job offer
in this new career. Ultimately, he decided to go back
to his previous career. But he's like, yeah, you know,
I might be here for a year or two and
then maybe I will switch careers. Like now I know
I can do this.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
That's cool. Kind of proved it to himself a little bit.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah, and I love what you said too, just how well,
first of all, it would be me making the calls
to Joel, just like, dude, you haven't showed up to
work in like three months, Like what's the deal.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Here, buddy? And I wouldn't take his calls.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
But that being said, when he did come back, like
how interesting of a conversation?

Speaker 1 (15:00):
What do we have?

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Like I guess I like the part of it too
where it's almost like this forbidden it's this forbidden fruit
that before I didn't really care, but now that I
can't have you, I want to like we got to,
but it's.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Almost like kind of how comedians and musicians need to
live life in order to make good content right like,
and I think the same is true for like life
right to be appealing in so many of those ways,
you have to go live a little or you just
become the person who knows how to do the basic
math and not kind of the interesting creative parts of

(15:31):
a job.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
So I see a lot of benefit in that. I'm curious, too, Gilly.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
You, what about our consumption culture, how does that fuel
our inability to take time off? Because think about it,
we see the stats people living paycheck to paycheck, even
people who make six plus figures. Is just kind of
the fact that we don't know how to rein in
our spending. Does that prevent us from having some of
that financial flexibility to take an extended period of time off.

Speaker 4 (15:57):
So one of the things that I talk about in
my group coaching is this time luxury continuum and the
phenomenon that if you have less time, you tend to
want more luxury, but if you have more time, you
don't really need as much luxury. And so I think

(16:20):
it's it ties in with the consumption in that when
we have so little time, we have to spend so
much money on everything, on having groceries delivered, on convenience food,
on ordering new clothes online, Like every part of our
life gets more expensive, and when we travel, it gets

(16:40):
more expensive to do. You know, a five day trip
to Paris for a family of four is a huge cost,
probably a similar cost for a family of four to
live in France for a month, And so oftentimes when
you have more time things aren't is expensive, And so

(17:01):
sometimes people try to extrapolate their vacation costs. While a
vacation costs me five thousand dollars a week, a month
long mini retirement will cost me twenty it will not
cost you twenty thousand dollars. Like because you don't have
to rush, you don't have to see three sights every day,
you don't have to eat out three meals a day
for the next thirty days in a row. Most people

(17:24):
don't want to eat out ninety meals in a row,
so the cost comes down because you can enjoy all
of the other elements of life.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
I totally agree, and I think there's something to be
said to in the same way that we get sucked
into the work and that keeps us from being able
to being able to realize what it is that's making
us happy. Sometimes I think we get sucked into the
same consumption traps as well. That doesn't allow us to
look up from from the grind that we're living in
a day in and day out. Jillian, you, as well

(17:56):
as a lot of our friends, Joel and I were
all kind of a part of the fire community. Whether
or not we're like tangent to it or fully in
it or not, I guess maybe it depends on the year,
But I think there are a lot of folks within
that community that might say that a mini retirement, well, hey,
that's gonna that's gonna delay my ability to achieve full

(18:18):
financial independence. Fat fire. What would you say to those
folks who are instead of looking at retirement at age
sixty five, You know they've got the noble task of
maybe going after it by the age of forty or fifty,
but they're so fixated.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
On their number. What would you say to those folks?

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Yeah, this is a common hesitation, And honestly, I think
many retirements are the perfect compliment to retiring early. And
so's there's two kind of ways to look at this. One.
If you are early in your financial independence journey. Like
I said in the like the three qualifiers for what
a mini retirement is. One of them is stepping away

(18:56):
from your primary career. That doesn't mean that you have
to do nothing. There were too many retirements that we
used to buy a rental property and to renovate it.
That was a big undertaking for us and it wasn't
something that we were able to do alongside our nine
to five careers. So we took these two small gaps

(19:19):
and that massively accelerated our path too five. Some people
use their mini retirement to start a side hustle, to
start a side project, to start kind of that business
that they've been thinking about but they just didn't have
the bandwidth to do it after work. And so you
can create additional sources of income. So, especially if you're

(19:40):
early in your career or early in your financial journey,
I would consider it doesn't have to be a beach
in the Caribbean for a month, like there's lots of
different things you can do with this time. But the
second for the second group, if you're because I've worked
with a lot of people who are like seventy percent
of the way to find eighty nine and it's like, ah,
do I really want to take a break? I could

(20:02):
just like keep my head down, push through for a
couple more years, and then I'm one hundred percent there.
But achieving financial independence is a little bit like driving
down the interstate eighty miles an hour. If you pop
that thing in reverse all at once, it's a little
bit of a tailspin. There's a whole bunch of things

(20:25):
that you maybe have not practiced or have kind of
set aside in your pursuit of financial independence. Maybe some
of those relationships, maybe some of those hobbies, those interests
that travel you've kind of postponed, thinking well, I'll just
really do all of that when I get to five.

(20:48):
And the reality is it's tough to change, like to
significantly change one thing in your life. It takes a
lot of work and effort, and it's not always enjoyable.
If your plan is I'm going to change fifteen things
in my life as soon as I become fie, it's
a rough transition and it's very discouraging for a lot

(21:12):
of people. Fail even just like the failure rate of hobbies.
You know, you try a new hobby and not all
of them work out, Not all of them are what
you expect same of volunteering. So you go from a
career where you're very proficient and really good at everything
and very successful to a life where you're like mostly
failing at stuff, and a lot of people it brings up,

(21:36):
you know, whether you retire at sixty five, whether you
retire early, sometimes even during a mini retirement. One of
the things I warned people about is it allows you
to unpack baggage. So it's like if your kitchen's really messy,
but you go to work all day and you don't
have to look at the messy kitchen, it's easy to

(21:57):
pretend it doesn't even exist during your time off. Now
you just stare at that messy kitchen all day long,
and so it's an opportunity to clean that stuff up.
But I know a lot of people who worked so
hard for ten or fifteen years, head down, push through
to retire early, only six months or a year later

(22:20):
to be like this sucks, I'm going back to work.
And it's like if you would have practiced retirement periodically
throughout the process, that transition not only would be easier,
but it would be so much more successful.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
I guess sometimes it's easier to do the thing that
you're really good at that you kind of disliked.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Us exactly trying to practice the things you're not great at.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
It's just like nobody likes to suck at anything, right, No,
like so much of our lives. I feel like you've
gotten better. A cappella music comett, but I sucked. No, No,
I don't sing, but like, yeah, like it goes back
to the doing the things that you're proficient and nobody
it's really difficult. It's humbling, Like you have to get
over that ego to say, you know what, even though
I'm so good at this thing and I make a

(23:06):
lot of money, you're like hitting the reset the reset button,
and you're basically starting over at beginner's, beginner level, novice
status on a bunch of other different things. And I
think a lot of folks would much rather continue to
be proficient and at the sort of a claim expert
level at the thing that they know and love. But
maybe that they're beginning to resent.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Think that the people around them value too, because in
this culture, that is what gets put on a pedestal
is professional success in the work workplace environment, more money
in the bank account, and so it's like, cool, let
me keep doing the thing that everyone else thinks is
great that I'm actually pretty good at, and I feel
good about myself. Chilie, we have more questions we want
to discuss about retiring often and how we actually what

(23:46):
are the specifics of how we actually pull that off?
Do we have to like put in our resignation. Tomorrow
we'll talk about that and more.

Speaker 5 (23:53):
Right after this, we are back from the break talking with.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Her friend Gillian.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
John's rude and Jillian like, so far, like in the
first portion of the episode, you've made a really good
case I think for why folks should be considering many retirements.
But let's talk about more of the nuts and bolts.
I guess the practical side of how we go about.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Doing this thing.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
So let's say that someone's convinced, how does how does
one get prepared? One does not simply walk into mordor right?
How do you take off a significant chunk of time?
Is this something where someone should just say yeah, like
hand in their two weeks? Notice, like, should you just
straight up quit? Or maybe should someone try to negotiate
a leave of absence? I guess what I'm asking here

(24:42):
is how should they negotiate the relationship that we have
with the current employer.

Speaker 4 (24:48):
So there's two options. If you want to come back
to your employer, which honestly, I will always recommend starting
small because it's the easiest step and it'll give you
that confidence and clarity to kind of go bigger next time.
But a month off negotiated from your employer, go do
something cool, go do something awesome, come back refreshed and happy,

(25:10):
is probably the easiest thing to negotiate. So if you
want to come back, I usually recommend if it's like
one to three months is what people can typically negotiate off,
partly because that's in the framework of typical leave of absence.
You know, if someone has a heart attack, or if
someone has a baby, or you know, most companies are

(25:32):
somewhat equipped to handle a one to three month absence. Now,
if you want to take a year off, two years off,
you might not be able to negotiate that. You might
have to separate from the company, although I know a
lot of people. Actually, one of my client siblings was
kind of inspired. After my client made some progress and

(25:53):
was a doctor and win and just quit, she was like,
I need a year off. I'm out of here, like
peace out, And they were like no, no, no, no,
no no no, okay, how about you leave and then
in a year you just come back. Just please come back,
whatever you do, just please come back whenever you're ready.
And so sometimes you can kind of negotiate this understanding
that a job is available when you return. But either way,

(26:16):
I always encourage, even if you're going to separate, do
an exit negotiation, which we can kind of get into
how to structure that. But yeah, shorter, if you can
start with a shorter leave of absence, go for it
one to three months, negotiate that you might need to separate.
If it's a longer leave of absence, are.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
You typically still getting paid? I guess depends on the
length of time and what you negotiate. So if you're
like gone for a month, are you able to say, listen,
I'm going to come back and be rested, refresh, meet
kicking butt. So you should probably pay me for this
month off or is it like half and half? Like
how do you negotiate sort of the pay for when
you're going to be gone?

Speaker 4 (26:50):
So I always encourage people, as like a rule of thumb,
to look at what their leave of absence pay policy
is currently so if people will get zero pay for
vacation or maternity leave, you're probably not going to be
able to negotiate a paid leave of absence, So you
can start with an unpaid leave of absence. Some companies

(27:12):
will do paid or sometimes so there's an HR logistics
issue in the background and of your health insurance, your
four one K contributions, your dental you know all of that.
Where does that money come from? So some companies like
Bank of America offer twenty five percent pay, which essentially

(27:33):
helps cover all of your automatic deductions.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's cool to know.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
There's some companies who just kind of have that structured
into the way they do business with their employees. Okay,
what about healthcare because this is one of those things.
Do you if you quit altogether, you might not have
healthcare at all we're talking about then your income drops.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
So do you go on healthcare.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Dot gov and get a plan there? What's the best
way to make sure that you have coverage, especially cat
traffic coverage while you're on your break?

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, absolutely have healthcare coverage. Like this is not the
time to be like skip it. Definitely get healthcare coverage.
There are in the US. You know, this is kind
of a US problem. In the US, there's six or seven,
eight kind of different routes you can go. Typically, if
people are looking at a two, three, four month mini retirement,

(28:27):
I generally suggest Cobra just because the ease of use.
It might not be the cheapest option, but you get
to keep all your same doctors, you get to stay
in the same network. You just it kind of rolls
over seamlessly. If you're looking at a longer mini retirement,
you know, eight months a year, then looking at the

(28:48):
Exchange is a good option. But there's also other options.
So sometimes if there's a married couple, one of them
could stay employed while the other one, you know, does
their mini retirement and they swap back and forth. I
had clients who one of the spouses had a very severe, expensive,

(29:10):
ongoing medical condition, and they're like, we have to have
insurance all the time, and so we just came up
with a plan. We're like, you'll just you know, you'll
swap back and forth, each of you getting some time.
If you know, let's say both people want to take
a year off, maybe one of them works part time.

(29:31):
You know, like I said, I'm obsessed with gardening and plants.
If I was a distressful corporate job and wanted a
year off and I could go to the local nursery
and work part time and water plants, like that is
my dream anyways.

Speaker 5 (29:45):
All I want to do.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
Is be outside and water plants and talk to people
about plants.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Like, oh, I thought you're gonna say talk to plants both.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
I talked to my plants as well. But that could
be an option, you know, to where you have this
flexus ability, You have the ability to do more trips
and things, So there's some options you can kind of
piece together, and people are always really nervous about it.
I always encourage people to take an hour and do

(30:14):
the research because it's usually those unknown pieces that create
that hesitation and get people stuck. But see what's out there,
and you don't have to decide forever. That's the other
great thing you'll love about Cobra. If you're overwhelmed, if
you cannot figure out healthcare, start with Cobra. You don't
have to stay on it the whole time. You can
do it for two or three months and then decide, actually,

(30:35):
I want to switch to the exchange now, or I
want to work part time or kind of come up
with a new option.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
It makes me think back to when I worked in
the corporate world for like a two years, and once
my wife and I were looking to start our own business, Jillian,
I had looked into what healthcare is going to cost,
and what I realized was that even if I was
going to stay with my company, I would have dropped
the group insurance because it was actually more expensive because
we were young and healthy than having gone out on

(31:05):
our own and paying for health care. This is a different,
simpler time, I know, I know in the health care space,
I mean, but what I love what you said there
though as well about actually going and working at a nursery,
Like that's a way that you can offset the cost
of a mini retirement. And so let's talk about I
guess budgeting for a mini retirement or a sabbatical and

(31:25):
what that entails. Because so by working at part time job,
not only does that offset your health care cost, but
you've got a little bit of money trickling in, and
so that kind of helps to offset the missed income.
But what about, like, how else can you financially prepare
for sabbatical, Whether you're talking about on the income side
of the equation, or even on the on the expenses
side of the equation.

Speaker 4 (31:44):
I think the planning stage isn't too complicated. You know.
It starts with knowing your baseline budget how much does
it cost you to live for a month, and then
kind of itemizing what is the cost of this thing
I want to do? And I have exercises I walk
people through of like how to decide what the next
mini retirement should be. But if all things you're equal,

(32:08):
especially if you're early in your financial journey, and you
have twenty different ideas, start with the least expensive one.
You know it will it'll help, It'll help you make
really good financial progress. You don't have to start with
you know, I want to do one hundred and twenty
day around the world cruise. This might not be the

(32:28):
one you do at thirty two, Like maybe save that
to when you're eighty two. And the first one is
like camping, you know, an American road trip or hiking
through Europe or something. So there's that part, and there's
once you start to I encourage people like list out

(32:50):
all of the elements of what the thing they want
to do during their many retirement would cost and that way,
you can kind of start to find creative ways to
pay for that. So if there's flights, you know, maybe
you do credit card points to help cover the flights,
but lots of different things you can do the research

(33:10):
to figure out how could I bring those costs down?
What are some alternatives you can crowdsource those ideas or
even like enlist some help. You know, when it comes
Christmas and birthday time, if you have like a backpack
that you really want, or you know, a piece of
luggagey you really want, or travel books or whatever that is,
you know, put that put that on the wish list.

(33:32):
So on the on the budget side, for money savvy people,
that's usually not the biggest stress, but there are lots
of boys on the income side. To bring in some
extra cash during your mini retirement, that could make it,
you know, a little less stressful, because, like I said,
if someone's used to earning and investing and saving, and

(33:55):
if they've been in that mode for a long time,
not earning bending down selling investments is a little stressful
at first. It takes some practice. And so there are
some things you know, when we travel, we travel about
half the year in an RV around the country with
all of our kiddos. We rent out our house while

(34:17):
we're gone. So we rent out our house for about
twenty four hundred dollars. Our travel expenses are about the same,
and so it costs us the same to live at
home or to travel full time. So we don't actually
really have many additional costs to traveling. And so that's
a really if you want to travel, it's a really

(34:39):
kind of low barrier to you know, to rent out
your house. You don't have to necessarily have rentals. You
don't even have to do an airbnb. We do long term,
but it could create a lot of income that could
offset those additional costs.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Like I feel like kind of what you've referred to
in the last few answers, just thinking outside the box.
I think there can be roadblocks, right, like.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Oh, healthcare, how am I gonna How am I gonna
do that? One?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
I guess I'm just not gonna take a mini retirement,
or uh yeah, what am I gonna do with the house?
Who's going to take care of it? And like actually
maybe you make money on it, like these are these.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Are ways gonna pay me to take care of my
house for me? Right? Right?

Speaker 2 (35:14):
And it's so easy, I think though, to let those
things like the mortgage or the healthcare be these roadblocks
to doing the thing that's going to be incredibly life giving,
potentially beneficial to your future career, but more than anything
beneficial to you as a human.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Absolutely, Yeah, Okay tell me this self employed folks, that's
a little different.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Right.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
So we were talking about breaking free from an employer,
but if you run your own business, it can feel
even harder to step away, I think, and if we
but that's one of your tenants for a mini retirement
is that you have to leave your day job. So
can you can you like participate in it a little bit?
Or is it like no, no, you got a cold turkey?

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Do this thing?

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Your business needs to be run by somebody else. You
need to put on a pilot for a bit. How
how do you.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Help self employed folks think through taking any retirement.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
Yes, I think a lot of nine to five employees
have this assumption of, oh my gosh, it would be
so much easier if I was the boss, I would
just say yes to me, And the reality is it's
so much more complicated, it's so much harder, and it's
scarier for a lot of people. While it can be

(36:26):
scary for employees, like what if I don't get hired again,
it has a different level of fear of what if
the thing I've spent years building explodes while I'm gone
and I come home to like a pile of rubble. Yeah,
Like that's a different level of fear, But there also
is so many benefits. So to tackle your first question
of do you have to walk away completely honestly for

(36:49):
people's first mini retirement, I don't suggest it. I suggest
shrinking your responsibilities to where you can accomplish them in
maybe five, maybe ten hours a week, trying to get
closer to five. But the reality is, when you're building
out better systems, when you're building out better processes, when

(37:11):
you're hiring people, it's really tough to replace you one
hundred percent. Like there's more risk and like ten times
the effort to replace you one hundred percent versus replacing
you eighty percent. And so I always encourage people like,
what's the eighty percent that you could automate or you
could get off of your plate, or you could delegate

(37:33):
to someone else, And what's the twenty percent that like
is really essential that you do and just focus on
that during your mini retirement. But yeah, it's they tend
to be more successful and it's easier to get it prepared,
and then you know retiring often. The more often people

(37:53):
do this, the better you'll get. It's kind of like
people ask me, like, is it hard to rent out
your house? Yes, it's super hard. The first time you
have to declutter everything, you have to clean everything, you
have to like pack stuff up. But every time you
do it, you come back to a cleaner, more prepared,
more organized home, and the next time it's less hard

(38:15):
and it takes less time to prepare. And it's the
same thing for self employed. The more often you do it,
the stronger and smoother and like more efficient your business becomes,
the better trained your employees become. And it does get
it does get easier. So you might get to like
I've logged off, I've thrown away my cell phone. You

(38:36):
will hear nothing from me for six weeks. But I
recommend starting with like five hours.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
A week check in not just like it is a
big thing to do to take a mini retirement, but
what's even bigger is taking an actual retirement. Now I
love that, Like one of the recurring themes to what
I hear you saying is that you're trying this out.
It's not going to be perfect the first time, and
the more you do it, the better you're going to get.
And I can't help but to think about the sort
of the like you barely touched on the selling of assets, right,

(39:06):
drawing down of principle, and that for so many retirees
is an incredibly difficult thing.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
What an awesome way to try that thing out?

Speaker 3 (39:13):
By yes, and maybe you're not obviously you're not paying
penalties and taxes on withdrawing money out of your retirement early,
but even not contributing to those retirement accounts, it does
this mental shift where it feels like you're not making
progress because maybe you're measuring progress incorrectly, maybe you're going
about it the wrong way. And I like that, whether

(39:34):
you're talking about being self employed or even retirement accounts. Yeah,
there's just a low risk to giving this a shot
at a reasonable level at least. But all throughout your
answers and just kind of how you've talked about this,
you're you've referred to your kids, and so we've got
a few questions about whether or not many retirement is

(39:54):
possible with kids. I mean, obviously it is because you've
done it. But we'll get to that and more. Right
after this.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
We're back. We're still talking about retiring often. Why you
you who are listening right now, You should probably retire regularly,
more consistently. It's not all or nothing. It's not oh,
can't wait till I'm sixty five. Maybe you should retire
little bits here and there along the way. And it
certainly sounds like an ideal, ideal way to live. It's
something Matt and I are discussing more and more as

(40:28):
business partners and as friends, and so part of the
reason we wanted to have Jillian on today was selfish
in nature, because was it like for us maybe to
do this more in our own lives. But Jillian first,
before Matt and I take off for a couple months,
we I have to know, like, what are the horror stories?
What are the worst possible outcomes of retiring often? Do

(40:50):
you have any from your own experience or from some
of the people that you talk to or work with
like that have just been like, that's not for me.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
I wouldn't say that it's not for them, but there
can be legitimate challenges. There are things that are hard
and go wrong, and I never I never sugarcoat that,
Like I think it's really important to kind of know
what you're getting into and to know what the challenges
might be. But I also always encourage people like these

(41:21):
are challenges, like this is a bridge you're gonna have
to cross at some point. The only alternative to figuring
the stuff out is dying at your desk. See, you
either die in your desk or you figure out some
of these challenges. So we might as well start small,
like you said, we might as well practice along the
way in like bite sized challenges versus okay, now, and

(41:45):
we're re tired for thirty years, like I have to
take a thirty size bite. But yeah, there's a lot
of challenges, like like I mentioned briefly, unpacking baggage. A
lot of couples, and this is true whether you're sixty
five twenty five, A lot of couples have more conflict
during retirement because they have to stare at the dirty

(42:08):
kitchen all day long.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
In each other.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
Yes, well, I think that's what you call your husband.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
Okay, But I always encourage people like this. While it
can be viewed Sometimes people's internal story can be why
the heck did I even take this time off? And
why am I spending all this money? And why am
I losing all this income just to like fight with
my spouse? And that could be the story, or you
could say, you know what, this is the opportunity for

(42:38):
us to really focus on this and learn some new
skills and figure out our communication and work through this
so that we can have decades more being happily married.
But that can catch people off guard. Another thing that
catches people off guard is if they are severely burned out,
they often under us to make the time and the

(43:02):
intensity of what that recovery will look like, and it
sneaks up on people where their body kind of downshifts,
and it's almost like if you've been fasting and then
you start eating again, your body all of a sudden
feels super hungry, and you feel hungry for a really

(43:23):
long time. If you've been depriving yourself of rest and recovery,
soon as your body realizes, oh, I have access to this,
it will feel super tired, and it will feel super
tired for a really long time. And there again, the
story people tell themselves never the helpful story, but it

(43:46):
often sounds like, well, maybe I'm just not motivated. Maybe
I'm not a productive person. Maybe I'm just lazy. Maybe
I can't thrive outside of my nine to five. This
was a horrible idea. I thought I was going to
be able to accomplish all these things, and now I'm
just napping. I have no motivation. I should just go
back to work because this sucks when in reality, your
body's just trying to get you back to your baseline

(44:09):
and it sees this as the perfect opportunity. So if
people kind of go in knowing this might be something
that happens and can reframe it of oh my gosh,
my body is really tired. Maybe I should shift my plans.
But I'm so grateful I have the ability to give
my body what it needs.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Another downside I could see of many retirements doing them
regularly is being away from community, from family, from you know,
some of those the people that matter most to you,
and over an extended period of time. So let's say
I'm like taking four months off and I'm away from
those people for a long time, Like that is a
very grounding thing for me, and I would imagine for

(44:49):
a lot of people out there, what does that look
like and what like? How have you dealt with being
removed from your community for an extended period time as
you're enjoying that time with your family, getting off the
beaten path and not working nearly to the same degree,
Like are you staying in touch with your community or are
you writing letters? Like what is how do you how
do you kind of maintain that cultivate that while you're away.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
Yeah, well, there's there's two ways to look at this. One.
I always encourage people you don't have to leave for
a mini retirement, Like you can stay home one summer.
I took the summer off and I planted a food
forest in my backyard. You know, you can play in
a band, you can do things locally. So if you
don't want to leave your community, you don't have to.

(45:32):
But the other side is if you want to travel.
It's actually been massively beneficial for us to be able
to connect with extended family, to be able to connect
with friends, friends from college, friends from you know, my
husband was in the military, so we have friends all
over the country during that season of our life. Professional friends.

(45:54):
When people only have fourteen days of vacation between holidays
and birthdays and weddings. There isn't a lot of time
left to go visit your cousins or your great aunt
or your friends from college. You know, oftentimes we lose
some of those connections, and we lose some of those relationships,

(46:15):
and when you're traveling, it's a great opportunity. You know,
we kind of try to plan our trip a little
bit around where are all the people that we haven't
we haven't gotten to see for a while. And so
while you know it is important to maintain your connections
back home, there might be those more distant connections that
you actually have the opportunity to kind of lean into

(46:37):
if you are traveling.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
I love that that makes sense to not you're not.
It's not like you're replacing your community, but it's like, hey,
how can we strengthen some of these other relationships that
we have or maybe.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Relationships too that we've neglected over over the years. But uh,
all right, last question, Jillian. Uh. I mentioned kids earlier.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Obviously I think a lot of I mean, the way
I'm thinking about this, I'm like, all right, summer breaks,
that's an easy mini retirement, right, You've got two or
three months where you can take off. But if you're
thinking beyond that, how does that work with schooling? I
mean you're talking about taking months on end off.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
What does that look like?

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Are you homeschooling and then when you come back, are you,
you know, are the kids like jumping right right back
into public schooling? Is there any catching up that has
to be done? What does that look like? Just from
a practical standpoint with kids and education.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
Yeah, for us, so we live in Montana, so the
education piece will be a little bit state specific, but
it is pretty easy to find online or talk to
you know, your school's administration to see how they would
handle different policies. Ours is if kids are gone for
more than a month, they unenroll them. So when we

(47:47):
leave because we like to travel in the winter because
I get seasonal depression and Montana is like massively cloudy
in the winter, so we travel in the winter, so
we unenroll them. We homeschool them when we travel, and
then when we get back, we re enroll them and
they jump back into school. We don't. Sometimes people ask
us about our curriculum. It is totally haphazard. It is

(48:10):
all over the place. But because kids are all of
our kids are moving at their own pace. They tend
to massively outpace their peers when they return. So I
kind of feel bad, Like we got back early April
this year, so they're going back to school for two months,
and I kind of feel bad sending them back because

(48:31):
they're not going to learn a single thing in the
next two months, not a lick of information. I'm just
sending them back so they can like get back into
the rhythm. See their friends have like build those you know,
community connections again. But yeah, I'm not in any way
expecting them to learn new information these last two months

(48:53):
because they're a greater or two level ahead at this point.
But yeah, it's I would say, you know, kindergarten in
Montana through junior high that's the system, and it's pretty easy.
It gets a little bit more complicated in high school
for a lot of reasons. You know. Oftentimes people are like,

(49:16):
I don't know if I want to travel when my
kids are young, and I get it. It's so much
more like physical labor. It's so much more emotional labor
to travel with them. But with school and with friends
and with activities and hobbies, it's logistically so much easier.
When kids are younger. I have two in high school now,

(49:36):
and it's tricky and we're having to shift plans and
kind of shift gears to accommodate those those needs. So
I always encourage people travel while your kids are young,
because you just never know. You never you never know
what your kids will want or need once they get

(49:56):
into junior high in high school.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
That's good advice.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Jillian. Thank you so much for walking us through this.
It's given me a lot of food for thought, especially
that last point.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
I'm like, Okay, I totally caught myself in that position
of being like, well, the four year old can barely
hike it a couple miles, Like I want to make
you know, don't you want to go when you can
throw down like five, six, seven miles because I'm thinking
National parks. But then, like you said, yeah, are the
oldest are they going to want to do that? So
it's easy to I don't know, it off in the

(50:26):
future for ourselves into the position of the questions that
we're asking Jillian.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
For sure, Jillian, thank you for joining us. Where can
our listeners find out more about you? More about taking
many retirements on.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
The rig, Like you mentioned retireoften dot com and I
have some worksheets there if you want to start kind
of planning what that might look like, or are on
social media. I'm at Gillian John's Rod.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
And we didn't even mention the workbook that you've got out.
And you've got a book coming out next year about
retiring often, so we'll make sure to link to that one.
It's available into your current resources now, Jillian, thank you
so much for speaking with us today.

Speaker 4 (51:04):
Thank you, guys, it's wonderful to be back.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
Well, Joel, are you convinced is the time for us
to just hang it up at least for like a
month or two?

Speaker 1 (51:14):
And I think so.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
I think so, And I think like I told Jillian
actually right after we got off the call, that we
were considering something like a two week extended thing next June,
once my wife's graduated getting her degree as a marriage
and family therapist. And then now I'm like, why stop
it two weeks?

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Why not make it longer?

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Why not just lean into that a little bit harder
and make it a month and try our first like
legit many retirement.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
I think you and.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
I we're solid about work life balance. We're solid about
taking time off but this makes me want to do
even more.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Definitely does.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
The hardest part is going to be you getting her
to take a many retirement when she's just getting started.
Like that's the I feel like the difficult part there.
But yeah, was that your big takeaway? Nor do you
have something else that you want to refer to in
our conversation than.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
I think my big takeaway was when she said, if
you have less time, you want more luxury, and I
think it's so.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Freaking true luxury time continuum. If you have the rest
of each other, guess what you want to have? Pay
someone to clean your house, you want to pay someone
to mow your lawn, you want to pay someone to
deliver the groceries.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Everything costs more. When you feel like you're strapped for time,
you're paying for you're outsourcing all these services.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
If you only have four days in Paris to travel
because that is the only block of window, or that
is the only window of time that you could get
away from work, well guess what you're gonna be paying
off the nose to be able to take off during
those four days, which happens to be when everybody else
also wants to take time off and flights are ridiculously expensive,
and the compounds, it's everything, like literally everything costs more.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Yeah, and so I think, just like what she said,
if it's five thousand bucks for you to take a
week vacation, it's not twenty thousand dollars to take a
month long vacation. In fact, it might be somewhat similar
in price because you're going to be doing all these
all these different things with a unique approach. So yeah,
think about think about that, how being constantly busy is
costing you more. And if maybe you had more time
in your life you can enjoy some of those tasks

(53:01):
and diy and save yourself some money. I think there's
a lot of truth to that. Yeah, man, I couldn't
agree more. So my big takeaway is going to be
when she was talking about we were sort of talking
about the nuts and bolts, like the practical side of
planning for a sabbatical or a many retirement, and she
basically highlighted that for most folks it's not too difficult
to figure out the financials of it. And so what

(53:22):
does that then leave. It's the psychological, emotional, the emotional,
the mental side of things, and like all the numbers
part of the equation, like those are all now.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
Just excuses because she said that.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
How you can take one hour, do a little bit
of digging around and figure out Oh, look, turns out
my company already has the policy, it's already spelled out.
Or you can spend that hour researching. Okay, well, what
does it then look like for me to pay for cobra?

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (53:47):
What does it then look like for me to take
this much time away? How is that going to impact
my career? There is so much fear of the unknown,
and it keeps us locked into the rut of going
and punching the clock, you know, just doing the same
things that we're so used to because we're proficient, we're competent,
but also I think because we're scared.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
Man.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
I think it's it's difficult to.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
Do something that that causes like a little feeling of
fear that kind of like sparks up.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Inside of us.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
I ever get a real job again. All there's all
these questions that come up, and I agree, I think
there are these kind of root level questions that are
probably really good things for us to sort through, but
it's hard to have the time to sort through them
if we're you know, working our butts off exactly, and
one other things she mentioned, you know, going to see
friends and family and stuff. I thought one of the
perk of that is often there's a free place to
stay when you're doing that, so that can dramatically, least

(54:33):
for a couple of days, rekindle some of those Yeah yeah, yeah,
they might boot you out, but you want to be
here for how No, I'm on a many retirem I
don't think you understand to be here for a couple
of months and they're like sorry, but yeah, a few
days in a bunch of different places can can make
for like a really fun trip.

Speaker 5 (54:47):
I think.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Yeah, all right, let's tell folks about the beer you
and I enjoyed during this episode. Grits and Juice by Carolina.
How do you say this barn House, boun bowen House, Yeah,
something like that. Okay, is it like barn House? It's like, okay,
I think's German? Maybe bower House.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Did you?

Speaker 3 (55:05):
I guess you picked this beer up about a Greenville
I've never even heard of them, surprising well, considering how
much time I spent in Greenville, South Carolina, that.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
I've only had a couple of beers from them, but
this one was by far my favorite that I've had
for this great, so good, super tasty, the most One
of the most underrated beer styles is when you combine
sour and hops together. This beer had both because it
was it was a session I pa that had sour
vibes going on, with like citrus sour going on, and
it was delicious.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
It's totally barrel aged too, right or no, I don't
because it had like a funkiness going on like that
made me think of that made me think of oak.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
I don't know, but.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, no, it did have a funkiness, but I don't
know that it was barely okay nice, I dug it.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
The grits and juice. Is that like a Snoop Dogg
reference gin and juice?

Speaker 1 (55:47):
Maybe, I don't know, but a southern version.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
It had a nice acidity to it with some of
that funk while at the same time having some of
this some of that hoppy bitterness on the finish as well.
Super tasty and doubly fund Since I don't think I've
ever had a beer by these guys, so I'm always
fun to try a new brewery. Yeah, glad you were
able to pick this one up for sure, me too nice?
All right, We'll make sure to link to some Agillian's
resources that we talked about here on the podcast. We'll

(56:12):
make sure to link to her show as well as
her site. You can find that up in our show
notes at howamoney dot com.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Stay tuned because will we be back on Friday with
a Friday flight or will we be like kicking our
feet up somewhere.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Who knows.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
You'll find out in a couple of days, I guess,
but Mattha's gonna do it for this one. Until next time.
Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,

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