Jargon (RE-RELEASE)

This week's episode is a re-airing of a Poog classic, as the hags weave a path through: Captain Sully. Liminal spaces. The pleasures and limitations of jargon. The ice cream cone metaphor. Jacqueline cries.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kate berlaand I'm Jacqueline Novak. And this is
poug an ongoing conversation about wellness between two obsessive friends,
two untamable intellects. This is our hobby, this is our hell,
this is our naked desire for free products. This is
zog Today's topics. Loosely speaking, Sully ice cream cone, vein
of gold. Well, I I feel the same having to

(00:28):
see you. It's so good to see you. I feel
I just want to remind the listeners. We are in
a zoom chat right now, we're able to see each
other the digital screen. So today we really are aiming
to focus around the topic of add and focus. Jacqueline,
you and I both are no stranger to the demonic

(00:48):
presence of add the inability to focus whatnot. Although I
guess hyper focus comes in you actually have hyper That's
the key. Yes, that's gonna be a key spread, a
key theme in today's conversation. It's so complicated, and I,
of course, I'm operating at the brutal intersection of a
d D n OCD, which my therapist, you know, urges
me to take adderall adderall, of course is one of

(01:11):
the most powerful evil drugs on the market ruined a
couple years of my life as a teenager, and so
I was very hesitant. Today I did take I cracked
a pill in half. I'm on five milligrams. Can't you
tell in my voice that I'm anchored by the demonic presence?
There is a grounding. There's as if a thick chord
is tethering you to the earth and being held by yes,

(01:34):
you know, a strong not the devil, but a lower
level demon kind of negatively, it's a lot of demon
who's holding onto the rope and keeping you tight to earth.
And you know, there is some question about whether demons
are bad, so I will so as we say, you're
being tethered by a demon that might not even be
a bad thing. Demon. Well that's the thing. I haven't

(01:57):
taken it in months because I just what is the
feeling of being on adderall? I mean, it's just it's awful. Really,
it's also wait, so right now it feels great. There's
like the euphoria. And again I'm on a low dose,
but it's like there is a certain euphoria that kicks
in and it really is God help me, it really
does help. Yeah, focus like I took Adderall to read

(02:18):
and write in college and then of course in grad school.
And I do remember one time writing in the library
in New York City, living my Felicity Porter fantasy, so
high on Adderall, writing my master's thesis. I repeat master's thesis. Yeah, yeah,
so I'm hideousness. It was about liminality and gominality. Yeah, liminalities.

(02:43):
I feel like I'm one of the only people who
ever uses the word liminal okayy was my huge Oh
my god, I'm joking with the ego of it. But
I'm also not you know what I mean. No, I
feel like I'm constantly referencing liminal space. Yeah, liminality, referring
to dear listener, that which is not he nor there,
kind of an in between place considered sacred by some,
considered perhaps the only real plane for subversion. And it

(03:07):
is it is, yes, Richard Schechner, the airport, Victor Turner. Actually,
I guess originated talking over each other completely the air
over the airport as a space of spiritual liminality. For me, oh,
I'm stopping you right there. Have we talked about this?
Have we talked about the airport as a space of
spiritual liminality only because Jacqueline. It's no joke for me,

(03:29):
and it always has been. Okay, okay, stop, I was
okay in the airport. Leave me in the airport. The
airport is the only modern space. It's the only modern church.
It's the only place we're actually able to cast off
our personalities and our daily limitations and finally exist. It's
also the most perverse and outwardly sexual area of modern life.

(03:53):
It's the only place that we can finally just oh, okay,
I'm being flooded. I know. I'm like, they're such an
excitement to talk about liminality in the airport. I can't
believe you've never talked about the airport like this. This
is huge. Seeing someone that you know and love at
the airport, meeting them at the airport. That is such
a beautiful moment of union. And the airport it's the

(04:14):
only place where we're fully like dommed. It's like the airport,
it's like get in line, bit oh. I mean, it's
like we're all kind of reduced to these like bodies
that have to move, and there's something there's like an
anger or hostility that comes with like I have to
follow the rules and get in line. But it's such
a when you give static release because you just you're
finally free from choice and you're just forced into the

(04:35):
liberation of restriction of get in line and take your
shoes off, you filthy bitch. You know there's something about it,
And yeah, your personality kind of ceases to exist or
tries to fight through in moments of oh god, six,
I am rock. Can you believe it? Right? It's like
kind of that right to the others. Yeah, remind me
to tell you about the captain in line. What I said,
remind me to tell you about the captain in line.

(04:55):
We'll go for it. So I'm big on and sometimes
I don't like it. In my sometimes I do like it.
It's a shared glance with a fellow crowd mate. I
can't stand it, but I love it. I can't. I
love to look to spin shared glances about something that's
happening around us. Right anyway, I was really proud. I
was waiting on line at a small airport. There was
a long line for the one little kiosk of bagels

(05:17):
and coffee and whatever, and I see a pilot, you know,
captain's hatton and all kids nines, okay, and in his
in his in his formal breathe so kinky. It's insane,
Like pilots actually dress up like that, like the little said,
like with metallic figures on it and things like that,
whatever and um and the dignity right, well, you know

(05:39):
I'm obsessed with Captain Sullen Sellemburger, right, you know, I'm
a Sully head. You mean, was that the guy who
is that? The Hudson guy. Sully is miracle on the Hustel,
which I witnessed. I witnessed the Miracle on h What
do you mean before it landed? But I saw it
flying low. I was in a car driving up the
West Side Highway talking to my friend Erica, who grew
up in New York, and sometimes because I was from
the suburbs, you know, sometimes we like to tell me,

(06:01):
you know, this is how it is. And so I
got there's a plane flying unusually low over the Hudson
in a direction I've never seen it. And it's one
of those things where it's like you don't know why
it's you haven't seen it before. But when you see
something you haven't seen before, you know, it's like, you
know what I mean, you're just like, I've never seen it.
It's not like I know the flight paths very well.
But but I'm always on the on the on the
West Side Highway heading to the Burbs, so I know

(06:23):
that route and I say it, and Erica is like, oh, no, no, no,
that's that. Yeah, they're always like that there. Yeah, you
know they're going to Newark or something other. I'm like, no,
it's really low. And then we talk about what it
would be like to go down in a crash. We
talked about that for a while. I arrived back at
my parents' house in the Burbs. My dad says, a
plane just landed on the Hudson as you see this,
And I go, I saw it. That's miraculous. It's it's major.

(06:47):
And you know, and there was this thing that we
sometimes laugh about in the home over here. Me and
my partner Chris were really into how at the time
people were like, because there's something really cheesy about They're like,
New York needed this, Remember you remember that messaging. It
was like I don't remember that. It was like it
was like nine to eleven. It was like, you know,
like after nine to eleven, and when we needed a

(07:08):
good story about a plane here. Yeah, like I forget
who said it, but it was said a couple times anyway, sullen.
So so I'm in line and thing and we're all
standing there and a captain or the why do I
keep saying captain? Is that right? Is that correct? Can
you be a captain of a ship pilot as captain
pilot but the pilot the main one is he captain?
This is your captain speaking. Oh, this is the captain speaking.

(07:29):
Yeah that you know that you're reminding me of when
I had to clearly drunk captain yammering on the overhead.
But keep going, keep going because by the way, of course,
what is it like Birds of a Feather? It's like
the AA for pilots, and yeah, there's a whole there's
the Birds of a Feather. You're yeah something like, oh,
of course, like of course pilots need fucking twelve step

(07:51):
for alcoholis I I mean inherently why just because I
mean you're saying it like of course, like I just
mean like then of course, or of course alcoholics end
up pilot being pilots you mean specifically, or you means
are all right, so of course there's those them too, right.
I thought you were suggesting that piloting itself leads to
a lot of layovers, honey, a lot of bloody Marys

(08:12):
in between flights, spotted BJ's and the terminal. Okay, right,
the sexuality of flying a plane, well yes, but also
the stewards were stewards and you know stewards. You know
what I'm trying to say them what do they call
them now? Flight attendants? Flight attendants right right, a steward

(08:33):
or student. But all the costuming, all the costume, I mean,
and you know, I remember the child being disturbed to
realize that that the government like that planes weren't a
government operation. Okay, they're like the private business. Yeah, because
I was like, wait, you mean like we're just but
we're just trusting, like a business that's saying that they

(08:54):
can carry you through the air, like I just assumed,
like something that big, you know, sending you lying into
the air right with nothing but aero dynamics at play. Okay,
But I want to say about the captain thing, but
I'm reminding me about the wheels. Ok So, the story
is a non story, but this is an add thing, right,
the story that I'm trying to say about being in
line with the Captain is mentally it's a physical place

(09:16):
where my mind can hold on you see, I'm saying.
So I'm like, wait, I know we have to go
back to that space in line and that report. I
can't remember what city? Do you say? Saying it's kind
of interesting, but I want to get that out, and
then I really, yeah, I'm a little confused. Sorry, So
I keep being like, I want to get back to
the story of the Captain, and it's not because there's
some big finish to it, As is typical for me,
what I consider a story is what others would not
consider a story. Okay, maybe I'm not using the right word,

(09:40):
but it's a slice of life. I guess. I don't know.
I consider it both my fault and my gift. But
I'm saying this is add because I'm realizing my desire
to go back to that is because it's one mental
tethering of the conversation, which is merely the image I
have in my head that I still haven't tethered YouTube,
you know what I mean. And so I just say,
but I have questions. There's a lot of things that

(10:01):
have been opened here and I want to hit them all, okay,
which is where my OCD features intersect with add and
we'll get to that later. But my mother there's obsessive
on that side, absolutely no compulsion. I have no compulsions.
I have pure obsessive, yes, much like my mother. And
because what I think is in the family line is
a confluence of a scenario code morbidity of a d

(10:25):
D and OCD. And the question is which came first,
one creating the other, because like both my parents are
add I believe, and um, I mean just clearly, like
you know, glasses and the freezer, all that stuff, right,
And I think my dad kind of can do hyper focus,
you know, dad hyper focus on anything except me? Right, well,

(10:46):
dairy or daddy? What dairy or daddy is you? Okay?
Is like you know, sorry, I'd always be referencing our
own work. Okay, pull me back. I want so much
talk about your captain story. No, I want to finish
the captain's Yeah, so we'll get all of that. But Sully,
the captain's story. Oh the sexuality of the costuming, right,

(11:06):
oh yeah, I can't believe like that the government isn't
in charge of all this, Like it just seemed like
I'm just trusting the whatever whatever whatever point is very
into Sully. Okay, sorry, hold on, hold on me, are
going the Hudson very into Sully? Oh well, like one
of my well the non story from earlier that I'll
just finish so it's so it's not nagging at me.
Is merely we're in line. The captain, dressed to the NYE,

(11:29):
steps up and gets in line behind us on this
carpeted little weird area of this small airport, and we're
all waiting, waiting, waiting, and I look around and kind
of try to capture the gaze of the others in line,
and I say, captain, surely, surely we could let the
captain go ahead of us, right right. I was gonna
set the story, isn't it fantastic? And then he did.
He tried to humbly decline the offer. I think he

(11:52):
humbly declined. And I looked around at the other's like, really,
no one's going to back me up and push us further,
you know what I mean? Like, seriously, you want him
staring at the back of your head while you get
a bagel at the kiosk. I call it albon paine.
I'm not a fan. Do you remember the bull bread? No?
Or like a super Bowl Yeah, but made of bread

(12:14):
hollowed out yea. And that is a classic case is
something that God when it first came out, it was
like holy shit, yeah, but when did that come out?
Sounds like something of like the fifties in a Palm
Springs restaurants, right this like our balls are bread now
like it just seems like that. Have you ever eaten
it out of a bread? No? Wait? But the liminality

(12:38):
of the airplane okay, the liminality Okay, So freedom I
want to get into being able to cast off your personality,
like being free at last, because when you're in the
airport or in a plane, you're nowhere. You're in between places.
And it's this this ontological crisis of location. Was intology
is meaning right? Yeah, like the nature of the thing,

(12:59):
like like the thing itself. Ontological crisis is a meaning
meaning crisis essentially, right, because I ontological is one I
would always struggle with remembering because I knew it was
something so like such a pure idea, like yeah, it's
like there's no visualization for us. I can't remember the word.
So it's almost like onteld you what is I know,
it's something really good thing itself. It's like, how can
you remember a word for the thing itself? It's yeah,

(13:20):
it's it's utter abstraction. You only need like six words
to appear smart. Well, okay, what are your six that
you lean on? Because we that's such a good question
about last week about me leaning on the phrase groaning
under the weight for the last fifteen years, growing under
the way, it's huge, I think. Um. Wait, I used
to say hegemonic a lot. I used to be like
a geminy hegemonic constructions of desire. Well, kind of gemony

(13:42):
is really satisfying. Yeah, absolutely, Saying hegemonic was really exciting.
I'm always a little afraid when I say it that
I'm actually gonna say like hegemony or you know, hemogeny
or something like. There's a fear of sucking it up
if you can really land hegemony. Oh, I know, landing words. Okay,
So obviously we did mention last week. Jettison and abject
and you know, jettison from you is Jettison is amazing.

(14:04):
Jettison's great. Jettison used kind of in that intellectual capacity.
But wait, all right, you can rodically genesis what are
the what are like, you know, what are the other
big ones? I was going to try to be like,
what are the one what are the words you've said?
Calcifi I used to, well, calcified to me actually crosses
over for you into like the like calcified is such

(14:25):
a funny word, right that, Like to me, that's like
we agree that that that referring to our brain is calcified.
Like there's something about that gives me. It makes me
feel something in my stomach when I hear you say that,
I hear it and I want more. I used to
just I think for me mostly I just have always
really used hyperbole. I've always used really hyperbolic language. Yes,

(14:47):
and that's been in my in my in my act
of course, but then also my personal life. Yes, and
so I used to really rely on words like violence, brutality. Well,
violent is pretty big for me. Hainous of course is
huge for me. You know, Hanus is like heinous, hideous,
hideous and heinous are big. Yeah, they come down through
the family. For me, there's a little bit of a
Jewish hyperbole really inspired me with with the use of hideous, Yeah,

(15:10):
just unbearable and sufferable brutal. I would have always relied
on words like that at the brutality. What was the
last one who said gate brutality, Yes, no, brutal and
all that language, binality, the brutality of the banal brutality
of daily life. Yes, yeah, um, the violence of breakfast exactly. Now,
the violence of is like really satisfying. Well, like a humiliation,

(15:32):
well that is structural humiliation. I used to be really
in talking about structural humiliation or also mortification. I was
like stewing on that the other day, Like you and
me are both very into humiliation mortification. I am mortified
for you, but like about being about a building or
something is set. I'm always interested in reducing things those

(15:53):
formal elements. Um uh yes. And then also I mean,
of course I'm not even gonna say the word affect
kind of talk about effect because we don't have time,
but um, the effective and also like effective, you know
the effective, um oh, affects is huge. Yeah, um, affect,
affect is really satisfying. I like jettison, casting off, slopping off, yes, um,

(16:17):
shedding Oh. I was thinking, yeah, there's another word like
that that has to do with sort of an a
violent mothering. That is a sudden Oh, you know what
I've you know what I've been leaning on a lot recently. Shuttling. Okay,
now it doesn't seem big, but but but like I
found myself like three times I ever writing reason like
and there therefore it led let us you to shuttle
back and forth between okay and then this and that.

(16:39):
But the shuttling, the sort of violence of a shuttle.
Shuttles are the lowest form of life. I mean, if
you're ever on a shuttle, you're fucked. No exactly, but
that's why applying a shuttle Okay, okay too, you know
the mind can Oh, I'm big on gestalt, of course,
I'm big on I'm big on that which cannot be

(17:01):
harnessed by language. You know, harness is a nice word
for me. I can't think of anyone. Oh, extreme reductions
are reduced. I'm constantly reducing use. Well, you know what,
I'm huge on it. Okay, here it is here, it is.
It's not the word itself, but it's a type of situation,
which is when you make a noun and do an

(17:22):
adjective and the syllabic intonation must shift forward. That to
me is a urgently it's coming and I can't wait. Okay.
So I love describing how an adjective okay, how a
noun okay might serve as an adjective when used adjectivally,

(17:43):
Oh my god, okay, adjectival okay, so an adjective or
or something being adject tibal okay, age tyble, I've never
heard its head. Yes, So I go adjectible a lot.
And what's satisfying is the word act table is an
example of this very thing I'm described agetivis. And now
now like like, what adjective is a noun? But like,

(18:04):
is there another one that you can give me? Of course,
name anything medicine, medicinal, Well, yeah, okay, okay, now that
one you're familiar with. Okay. I literally I glanced down,
I saw my well beutrin, and I okay, okay, um um.
I remember my friend once did this and I don't
even think this one works, but she did it anyway
with confidence, and I was impressed. Which was talking about

(18:25):
characters in a script or something and then going like caricatural,
which is not I don't think a word, it doesn't
even work. She did it. She's like caricatural it's like, oh, okay, yeah,
because at any timele um, okay, give me a goddamn
noun and I'll do it. I know, I know. No,
I'm thinking chum glancing around. Let's think about a hot
nown to adjective eze. Yeah, as we got a break, Okay, great,

(18:53):
So I actually didn't do any thinking on the break, um,
nor did I. But I'm very excited about I am
sort of levitating in my seat because I get very
very excited when we get to talk about words. Okay,
I mean, I guess what I'm saying is that, you know,
not just the adjective thing, right, but what's the word
conjugating a verb? Like anytime you do one that's a

(19:15):
little bit unfamiliar or isn't the thing that people are
always doing, Okay, Like the derivation, there's some satisfaction so
like even like getting something out without stuttering, like pursuant Okay,
if you were like like to switch something into pursuant
versus you know, pursuing or something. Right, Yeah, there's a
little bit of like there's like a satisfying flex of
like pursuing. You know. It's just like I'm having a

(19:36):
I'm having an add moment because you said conjugate. And
then I got flooded with the memory of being in
Latin class in the seventh grade and I just completely
unable to do Latin. I could not figure it out.
And the sweet, sweet Latin teacher doctor A who is
this guy who had an album, had a bongo album,
who was like really sweet story education or no. Shockingly,

(19:57):
but he I just want to say quickly that he
was so positive and like really was such an angel,
and he would give people a pluses and the school
had to come down on him and say, you cannot
give a pluses. You can give a's, but you cannot
give a pluses. And I remember seeing him in his
office whiting out the pluses off the uh like whiting
out the little people don't allow to give a single

(20:17):
a plus or he was like, you can't give an
a plus like because you know and so this this
but this, this vision of him whiting out the pluses
was like really went in me and I just I
haven't thought about it in so long. It's one of
the most beautiful things I've ever witnessed. No that reminds
me of I mean, deeply sad on your deathbed kind
of shit, you know, just to see all of the

(20:38):
pluses that got wiped out. Or why I think we
meet the same person over and over, like he's reminding
me of this other person I knew, And this kind
of goes into we're talking about past life stuff, but
like you kind of fall in love with the same
person over again, right, or like we're all either there
is this thing of like the singular person that we
keep chasing or obviously that's like, oh well, we try
to fall in love or we try to have into
my relationships to heal the wounds of our childhood into

(21:00):
kind of you know, our belief that we got to
get it, we can get it right this time with
this person. But there is something about that this like
one person or these archetypes or these like or like
when you make a new friend and they remind you
of an old friend, or you have a kind of
a shared intimacy that feels so immediate like you've known
them before, Like what is that? How much do you read? Jacqueline,

(21:21):
I'm experiencing a return to literature. I actually turned to fiction.
It's twenty twenty one. I thought the return to fiction
is twenty twenty one. And I have to say again
because we are of course hovering also gently around the
idea of adity never to arrive because that it's too
hard for us. But I did tease in the last
episode that I was going to deactivate Twitter. I did,
I repeat, I did, but I'll never return. But I

(21:43):
deactivated me. It's done. I deactivated it gone. I'm gone.
I mean, I will return, but I can't anymore. And
I'm also I'm on Instagram. I log on for poog
related stuff or to sign in, you know, I do
a quick sign in at the time. I can't do
it anymore. And I you want to return to fiction? Wait?
What was like? Oh? Um? Oh yeah, And I'm just wondering, Jacklin,

(22:06):
because you you're a writer, You're one of the great minds.
And I'm just wondering. I'll silently are you consuming? You know? Um?
I always want to read fiction, and then I get
suckered back to nonfiction. I'm constantly nonfiction. Also constantly I'm
nonfiction all the time. Um, because fiction can't advertise its

(22:29):
own ideas, okay, in the same way, I mean you
could say, yes, it's love, it's loss, it's life on
the prairie, or whatever, okay, describing yourself the ultimate proplicand
I would argue, you know, of course, okay, but it
doesn't sell me in the same way where a book
that says. For example, I saw it posted by Elise
from Goop, Mary Magdalen revealed, and I had ordered it

(22:52):
within within five minutes. Mary Magdalen revealed. Obviously I've been
interested in the Magdalene for some time, the Magdalenian Understandings
of desire, well just Magdalenian Thessian. Last it was a revelation. Okay, Um, well,
you know what I do find interesting. But when they
do those things with the names where it's like, oh,

(23:14):
like you know what one of my favorite ones is,
so like the fact that descartes okay, Cartesian, Yeah that's okay,
thrills me because it's, yeah, well it's like it's sort
of like, you know, like von Helsing or whatever means
like from Helsing right, or van dare built I think
means like from there the built, okay, And so like

(23:34):
those names. When they dropped the van so Descart's name,
I guess it's like, what is that? You know, he's
Johnny of carts of cart Yeah, okay, he's Johnny of carts,
and so they it's it's a Cardian idea or Cartesian right.
Oh see, this is when I'm like, I need school now. Yeah.
But he would famously write was like staring into the flame.
It's not like Descartes, like he'd write that way yeah
or something. And he would write about like he was

(23:55):
that I'm of course by candlelight, but then would like
be staring into the flame. He wrote some like there
was something he did about looking into the flame or
like to the flame, oh god, or maybe that was
freaking law. I heard a story about Russeau one time.
I heard a great tale about Rousseau. Every day you
could set your your watch to it, and you know
they had to sit watch his back down right. Every

(24:18):
day at noon or whatever, he would be in the
town square okay and typing, writing, or I guess he
wasn't typing, Jesus. He'd be in a town square, scribbling
away okay or whatever it was. I forget. And then
one day he wasn't there are you listening, Yes, I'm
staring at your face okay, because I perceive your eyes
is staring into a different window. It's a classic issue.

(24:39):
I think I was captivated by your beauty, and I was.
I was just staring. Thanks. Wait, but I have to
tell the anecdote about Rousseau before I forget. It's really simple.
The entire town believed he was dead, okay, because I
mean he was there that regularly at that time, Okay,
and they were like, oh my god, Rousseau must be
dead if he's not there. He's there every day. They
run to his house, they look in and I go,

(25:00):
where were you this one? I got caught up in
a bit of reading. Okay, anyway, it's not hysterical, very romantic.
You actually don't seem that impressed. Yeah, I guess which
I guess I should say, because see, I'm so vulnerable.
Immediately have to show that I blind myself to anything,
you know, I blind myself to the next He was
swept up. But it didn't make me feel negatively of view.

(25:20):
I just was trying to like, I guess I wasn't
as moved by the idea that he was. I mean, there,
I mean it is romantic. I meant it. No, no, no,
it's not romantic. I just I think it's funny. Okay,
I think it's funny that an entire town thinks you're
dead and you were just caught up in a bit
of reading. Yeah, that's it. The town's obsessed with it.
I don't know, I don't know why I love it. Yeah,
why do I love it? Why do I think it

(25:42):
was worth sharing? Okay, I'm thinking about it right now. No. Yeah,
I mean maybe I just didn't do it as good
a job as whoever told it to me. But there's
something in me. No, there is something that I never
forgot it. Yeah, the town thinks you're dead because you're
not at the place you usually are. That people could
sit there watch. By God, that's comforting. I mean, that's
why I long for community. Okay, long best probably for it.

(26:04):
So here I am off social media, right with community.
I went to the park the other day alone to
read like a nineteenth century whore. Yeah, and I was, well,
you know, I mean, we can get into that later,
but reading is one of my primary fantasies of my
saloon whore. Yeah thing. It's being able to read between
the johns. Oh my god, of course, of course. It's

(26:24):
it's the true room of one's zone. Because you're the
kids aren't waiting. I need to Honestly, I'm humiliated. I
really have barely read any wolf. Virginia, Yeah, Virginia, Yeah, Virginia.
I didn't know if you met Tom Well, so I
just I don't know for some reason, hearing a wolf alone?
How much wolf? Are you? Like a to the lighthouse
kind of a gal? No? No, I've read like I

(26:45):
think I read A Room of One's Own when I
was you know, I zygote, isn't a room of one's own?
Is the room's own just an essay? M hmm. It's
just is it a single essay that I feel like
it's a single essay inside of it? It's thin when
those thin book essay books that was then of course republished.
As a boy, I wanted to say, oh, okay, I
did want to say about the community thing, which I

(27:07):
do along for I was in the park the other
day reading and then I realized I found some shape.
It was quite hot out and I've been reading for
like maybe an hour, and then I realized I was
getting really hot, and I looked on it. I glanced
out in my hand and my veins were kind of pulsing,
like bulging out of my hand in a scary way,
and I went, lot's not good. And then I started
to kind of get nervous and go, am I about
to pass out? Because I just I just I realized

(27:28):
I was just I had a hot head, like I've
been sitting not in the direct sun, but it was
like a MacBook lap top top, and yeah, I started
to overheat and I started scanning the I started scanning
the meadow, looking Who's going to save me? And I
had to calm myself that. I said, Kate, you can
get up, Yes, Corona, you know everyone's mask. You can
get up and go high. I think I'm about to
pass out, Like can you take care of me? Fascinating

(27:50):
and good for you self soothed. I just don't. I
don't sit around thinking I'm about to have an aneurysm, yeah,
or as I do now. And it's not just because
you know, what's the point kind of thing. I'm fascinated
by how you always think things are going wrong in
your body when you have almost no medical issues. Well
oh CD, but yeah, I know I have to But
I was right. But then I started scanning. I was like, Okay,

(28:11):
who do I know? Who's home right now? Who's in
the area? Who could I call, you know, like I
started doing that and then I had the urge to
call someone to anchor me. But then I thought, no,
you know what, we're going to push the discomfort. I
didn't pass out, and I was able to leave the park,
though I was quite hot. It sounds like a okay,
so you were reading the parper Walk because it sounds
like the sort of completely like a laughable tale of

(28:32):
woman decides to go to the park, okay, okay, to
to experiment with this thing they call reading or whatever.
And then you know, friends, our head overheating and leaves
before the books, even the spines and crap. Well that's
more my style. That can you believe you used to
have to knife your way into books? What do you
mean to cut the pages to get in you know
what I'm talking about? No, I don't be seeing this, okay,

(28:52):
like the way like I guess, like a brand new
book it was sealed with wax. No, it wasn't even that.
It was like, fuck, I don't know, I'm gonna I'm
gonna it's this googled now. But it's like a thing
where the side that would be normally open you have
like cut the lead and you can't be cutting them
all right, It must just be you cut down and
then it opens. I don't know, it's a bit confusing.
I mean I've experimented with book binding here with my

(29:13):
um you know, of course, with my with my printing
things out, you know, double sided, try and make little
booklets for my own productivity. That's sort of a joke,
but I mean it's literally true. I just I printed
out those things. I was just showing the small quarter
size of a page, so printing out of a large document,
I may make them small, make them small so it's

(29:35):
four pages on a single page, and then slice them
and then move them around and experience them as less overwhelming. Okay,
so this is all. Well, you're describing the book binding,
my going to the park to read, and then being
overcome with the fear of an aneurysm. These are all
ways to avoid I hear you, right, Okay, and I
but I have had to radically Jennison. Okay, this notion

(29:59):
from my life. Okay, which is which is the Oh
that's not the focus, that's the stuff getting in the
way the focus. Right, No, I love that. I love
your approach. Life contains Okay, life contains opposing forces. No,
and you and I. I think you and I also
are friends because we both right, that's kind of our
preferred mode. I'm always my whole life. I'm oh, I

(30:20):
longed for a routine. I long for structure. But it's like,
I actually don't know if I work wealth in that system.
I love having to be somewhere every day. Yeah, but
like I I'm actually okay with just reclining on the
couch for six days. I enjoy the interplay, okay, of
trying to contain. I had this realization that about um

(30:41):
about life, okay, but about something about my experience of
something okay, which is and it was around an ice
cream cone, but it applied to more okay. It was
about the pleasure of eating an ice cream cone. For
me involves the attempt to um contain, catch up, stay
present to the cone, okay, because because the cone asks you,
the cone demand will not wait. Ye, the cone will

(31:04):
not wait, demand you better eat it now. And every
lick is catching a potential um fall. It's the process
of duca much yes again. And so if you want
to if you want to enjoy it, you better you
better get in there, right. And it's this containment, it's management,
it's it's it's keeping the cone alive long enough to
consume the It's it's grief and it's loss because it's

(31:26):
so beautiful. It's hand it to you and you're constantly
having to reckon with the fact that it's it's dying
and yeah, you're still experiencing. No, it's dying and it's
so so press your lips against the drying rose petals,
you know, or whatever. Right, So to me, there's that
energy and I love that energy, right, And I would
relatedly make that kind of driving up. So there's this

(31:47):
I'm saying containment. That's not quite it, okay, but just
go with containment for the moment, right. And then I
was thinking about at the end of the ice Preachrome,
when it's finished in the sense of loss, okay, and
the moment of loss at the end of the ice
crom corne what is that and why why does it
feel so devastating? Right? And I realize it's because in
those moments, I'm only remembering the joy of containment of

(32:07):
a thing where there is another joy and it's a
different process, okay, And it's it's conjuring, okay. So here's
what it is. I realized, like, I also enjoy the
conjuring elements of life where you have nothing and you
create something. You mean reminiscing about the cone. No, two
different things in life. There is something that's bigger than

(32:28):
me that I'm trying to contain in order to experience. Right, Um,
it's and the ice the ice cream cone happens. It's happening.
It's go and you got to you gotta rise to
the occasion to get as much of it as you
can kind of and that's great and I love that feeling.
And then it's gone and it's sad, and suddenly I
want another thing to contain. I'm forgetting that there's another
thing I enjoy, which is the conjuring of something out

(32:50):
of nothing. So so they're eating the ice cream? Is
is making us? Um? Making is capturing is? Um, It's
I guess eating right, eating is eating is. These are
like elemental and abstract to me, and I really like
it felt like a huge realization and it's like I'm
trying to figure it out. No, I feel like something's
there and I want Okay. It's like I remembered that

(33:12):
I was really meditating at the sorrow on the sorrow
at the end of the ice cream right, and I
would say, it's always with eating, and I want it
to go endlessly. Okay. I wanted to go on it right, right,
and so it would almost be like, right, the sadness
of taking down the Christmas tree and the blankness of
the new year, let's say, right, and it's like, well,
oh wait, I forgot that. The other kind of joy

(33:33):
I enjoy is it is dead is a deadness, is
a nothingness that I am gonna work to pull something
to create life out of. To talk containment. Containment is
something overwhelming that you're trying to sip off a part of, right,
You're trying to get it while you can. You need
the ice cream cone to be gone? Is that you're
saying you need to arrive at the sadness of the cone.

(33:55):
But that's I'm not no, right, but it's not Yeah,
it's um, it's wait. Let me just see if I
have a have have the metaphor? Okay, let me just
try it one more time and I and all right,
So so let me start with my original thought process. Okay.
And I wrote like thirty pages on this, so it's
in there. Somewhere, okay, because I was like and I
was like, Jesus, this is like exhausting me writing about

(34:16):
this ice cream cone, like and that's my like OCD,
I kind of obsessed with, like, and I picture it
outside of this place that you know, had an ice
cream growing up whatever. All Right, what I'm specifically talking
about with the ice cream cone is the fact that
it's an unfolding experience in time that you are on
its schedule. Okay, okay, it is not still it is happening,

(34:38):
and you you you you can either show up for
it or not, right like you can you have, and
every every lick of the ice cream cone is to
prevent you know, you look at the parts that are melting, right, Yeah,
you're you're so you're containing and you're maintaining the existence
of the ice cream cone through it as it as
it sort of dies, and it's it's a it's it's yeah.
But that's that's I mean, that all incredibly metaphorically interesting,

(35:02):
but it's I'm just isolating this one point, okay, which is, um,
there's something there and you're trying to sip off of it.
You're trying to you're trying to there's a there's a
there's a kind of it's like it's hunting versus it's
not creative, it's it's consuming. Okay, but I also enjoy

(35:24):
when there is nothing and I have to create something
out of that deadness. So it's like I enjoy both,
but I forget that I also enjoy that other side
while I'm while I'm finishing the ice cream cone. So
it's like it's like it's like my add or my
whatever you want to call it, my brain like thinks, like, Okay,
so I just had an ice cream cone. I love

(35:45):
that experience. I need to have that again and again
and again, and I want to do it until the
only thing that will kick me off of eating anything
that I'm enjoying is you know, nausea. It's it's only nausea.
We'll get me there. Pain and the stomach certainly won't.
I can tolerate pain, you know what I mean. Yeah,
So it's like I don't know, maybe we'll maybe I'll
cover it on a future poog. I'll pull out the

(36:05):
ice cream cone essay or whatever. Um. I want to
know that what you mean about this enjoying the other
I mean that they are like licking a plate till
it's clean. Okay, you know, and then okay, it's done.
I've consumed it. That was great. So here's what here's
here's here's what I'm saying. Some certain things that are
wonderful and to be enjoyed are diminishing in real time.

(36:29):
They have to be you have to step up and
and they will not wait right, the fresh the ice
cream cone will not wait freeze it. And those have
their own weird kind of um Frankenstein sort of. Uh,
they do have their own weird, disgusting but but deliciousness,
like a like a you ever have one of those
supermarket frozen ice cream cone, the way that waffle is

(36:50):
like melted and soft. It's its own like perversion that
has its own pleasure to what I will say, okay,
but so it's this, it's this wealth of of something
you're you're you're hurrying to enjoy it, to take it in,
to to consume it, to right, it's not gonna last.
It's it's that kind of spirit. What will wait for you?
What does wait for you? What is not on the

(37:13):
like like a melting ice cream cone, is here and
now in the physical plane is happening. It's one one
part of life, right, is things dwindling and you better
get them or not. Right. The other part of life
that will wait for you, and I tend to often prefer,
is you know, sort of the dead the dead endlessness
of infinite possibility. It just sits there, right, um, nothingness

(37:36):
is as the potential to make something out of it.
So it's like, right, okay, and I and I to
make myself at peace at the end of the day,
scream cone. I have to remind myself that I also
enjoy conjuring energy. So there's there's containing or consumption energy
that obviously I get a great deal of pleasure out of,

(37:57):
but it's also conjuring energy I get pleasure out of.
You mean, it is the conjuring energy. You sitting there
going I want an ice cream cone. I want another
ice cream cone. No, it's more like it would in
this example, it would be more like, Okay, well, I'm
sad that ice cream cones over not okay, now I
need to create an ice cream cone. But you know
what's better, you know, melting ice cream. In one room,

(38:17):
you're melting ice cream cone. Okay. In the other room,
you have nothing Okay, let's let's put it that way, right,
an empty room with a chair in another room, an
empty room with a chair and um an ice cream cone. Okay,
now now the ice cream cone room you're allowed five
minutes in Okay, the nothing room you're allowed and infinite

(38:37):
time in an eternity in yeah, yeah? Is that isn't
the room in which nothing happens and it lasts for
eternity the state of death, of personal death. You're seeing life,
not itself an ice cream cone? How can you enjoy
the nothing you're seeing? In the nothingness and in the
desk potential? I'm just actually pushing back a little bit

(39:00):
the idea in general. I don't think we can use
any of that. No, I know we can't. I know it.
By the way, let's break here. It is so you know,

(39:23):
we did attempt to continue this conversation moments ago, and
we went down a path and there's all this excitement
and then and we're jumping around, and that's some of
the joy, right, The joy is the jumping around. But
then sometimes with the kind of hyper focus, I feel
my brain pulmy towards something and I can't fucking get
off of it. I spent the last twenty minutes talking
about like the metaphor of an ice cream cone. You know, no,

(39:45):
I understand shit on myself, you know what? What are
you talking about? Of course not, It's just that I
relate so so so listener, brilliant Jacqueline is working on
a kind of existential Uh. She's trying to kind of
find the language to contain this existential conundrum or this
issue of an ice cream cone, which again you just

(40:07):
recorded for a while and she's still working it out,
which for me is a great joy to listen to
a great mind workout a budding theory. And I think
you are trying to actually arrive at an idea that's
truly interesting, and so therefore the jargon doesn't won't serve you.
You can't just rely on the bullshit that say I

(40:27):
might rely on to try to get an idea across,
because what you're actually trying to come up with is
an actual idea. No, Look, I've been crying. Could be
a great part of the podcast. Don't cry? Are you crying?
Here's what I'm want to understand. I don't see how
you could be crying. Are you crying? Because you feel
like you didn't like you're still untangling what this theory is. No,

(40:52):
I'm crying out of the humiliation of being seen as
I yes. No, why are you talking to about? Crying
out of the the extreme vulnerability of just like I mean,
for one, I cry. There's just that, you know what
I mean? And I don't. I don't stop it because

(41:15):
the depression is really important for me, not to I
love it. You cry shuttle shut all my emotions, um,
you know, down from what will happen. So I have
to let it out, saying with anger, Okay, when I
thought the rare occasion anything actually crosses up into the conscious,

(41:38):
now won't. Actually this is the right through my body
and the warm tears. You know, it's like in the Hallelujah.
Really it's not the deadening, you know what I'm saying.
So I have to let it through. Um please, others
would try to whatever. I have to almost milk it
and create more, you know what I mean? Because cry.

(42:00):
I cry absolutely, as you know, I classically am not
a crier, but have tried. I think just the brutality
of the year and everything, I've been crying more and
it's it's good. It's really good. Well, you know, you know,
I don't know. I just want to say, I just
want to say, but I was truly honored and interested

(42:20):
and you teasing out this idea, and I could care
less if you arrive at it in some neat you know,
conclusion at the end, you're you're you're writing about it. Currently,
you're you're figuring it out. I just wish sometimes, I mean,
this is the endless question, but I just wish that
I don't know, I do not know whether it's better

(42:42):
in this life. This is the same question over and
over again. Do I want to work hard to hide
the you know, are the qualities of my personality or
my habits or my ways are they something to overcome
or are they something to embrace and treat as a
feature not a hug or whatever I'm saying less question,

(43:02):
and I'm I'm I'm annoyed that I wrestle with it
still because I'm not sure. Obviously the like you know,
the hashtag would be like fly or freak flag. I'm
freaking tired of that. Also, I don't you know that
I'm into transformation and I like, I like to believe it.

(43:24):
You know, we can do whatever the fuck we want
to do right, and so if I want to be
someone who doesn't doesn't spend twenty minutes unfinished ice cream idea,
that would be much jocolensive, much jocolessive if I fucking
got it together on my own and delivered it. No, No,
I completely completely disagree. You spend in twenty minutes figuring

(43:44):
out the unfinished ice cream cone idea is magnificent to witness.
I want to also argue, it's not like you're presenting
that as something you know, you know what I mean,
You're you're presenting it as something that you are working
through and figuring it out. Like who cares? I mean,
I'm not talking. I know it's fine, but I just

(44:07):
can't decide, and I know that. I guess the answer
is that I like to like things to be extreme,
so I like it's easier to say I accept every
part of myself right, and whatever the fuck I do
naturally must be perfect because I'm specific and on my own,
and so there it is, you know, like no editing here, folks,
you know, straight straight to the audience or whatever. And

(44:28):
then the other part of me, um, you know knows that,
and I don't know. I just I can't decide how
much to control or attempt to control who I am
in the world according to what I think is you know, attractive,
interesting and cool, like, because I also think it's a
disservice to work on yourself and make yourself attractive, cool

(44:48):
and interesting. You're gonna just serve that up. That's just
you know, utterly violent. Yeah, yeah, no completely, So it's
one or the other almost, It's like, no, I'm a
hard worker who figures it out, and I, oh, you
gotta you know, or am I the other? And it's
just it's not one or the other of course, there,
you know, And I just wish it was more. Um,
I don't know, but but I always try to cry

(45:10):
freely when when it when it comes up, because hiding
tears is just utter You can't hide them flush. And
I think what you're talking about is something like very
profound and what to hide, what to conceal, what to
actually make an effort to change or transform at oneself?
And then what to kind of embrace and kind of
allow to be unfinished or messy or even painful or difficult,

(45:32):
Like there are parts of ourselves that are really difficult
to reckon with and hard to fucking live with, Like
there are parts of just who we are that are
that trouble us and upset us and are embarrassing, and
yet there it is, and it's the self acceptance like this,
you know, like self acceptance Like these are all kind

(45:53):
of big words that and big ideas that also it's
important to critique, but they can be impractice cool even yes,
even on the interior. I mean it's it's like so
another thing that's that's like thrown around a lot that
I feel like isn't really investigated. Its ideas of like
self compassion. Yeah, I mean this is like me being

(46:13):
like the trying to soothe you in this moment or
something and be like self compassion, but it's actually is real,
Like self compassion is actually really demanding and not easy. No,
I'm just like, I'm I'm still um. The thing that
you're striving for, You're never going to this is the
way that you get to it. You're not going to
wake up tomorrow, do you know what I mean? I

(46:34):
just feel like knowing you like the thing that you
are after, you're after it right now in this process
of you trying to articulate or find something. This is
your process, You're always going to be, you know, screaming
at the wall, going oh God, and how do I
do it? Or something? Because I mean, because I also
relate in the sense of like, it's just no, I I, well,

(46:54):
the problem is like I think what I'm what I'm
doing on right now is like, so I also do
believe that the gold, whatever the or my unique gold
so to speak, as with many people's, it would be
like my unique gold is completely threaded with my unique
fecal matter, you know what I'm saying. Like, and so

(47:16):
it's like it's like and I do believe, you know,
I do have this you know, almost embarrassing belief that
there is some gold there, right, and so there's a
there's this so there and then then the utter ego
of it is that I essentially, you know, I feel
like I'm asking people too. I'm telling people that the
gold my soul is gold enough that they should like

(47:38):
it with the taste of shit. Yeah, but they should
swallow shit whole because there's gold in there. And so
I and so it's this weird thing where you know,
the ego is is I don't know, I lost it,
but it's just there's something about like I'm embarrassed by
the fact that I, I, you know, will defend saying

(48:00):
like we'll defend all these things and defend you know,
all these factors. Convinced that convinced that it's worth it.
There's this there's this baseline like I don't know what like,
and I kind of think everyone should feel that way.
I don't know, I don't know, but it is worth it.
You feel that for a reason. I mean, I'm also convinced,
like I also convinced there's no other option but to

(48:22):
take like there's not that much time right in you know,
tangible life, incardinated life. There's not that much time necessarily
to fix or change all the things that maybe potentially
doorways to you know, you being a specific person. Right,
So it's like I do lean more towards let's like,
I'd rather if there's something I have to bring to

(48:43):
the world, I'd rather be like shit that's veined with gold,
then the thing that is pure. But it's just um
would like if you pure wood over here, which would
take a lot of effort for me. You don't want
pure wood or you get shit in gold. You want
shit in gold. And I'm sorry, but I'm not. I
don't have the strength to google. But there's serious connections

(49:04):
historically between gold and shit, and shit as being you know,
a prize and so yeah, Wooden, what are you striving for? Like,
I have this belief and it's kind of a dramatic,
almost like like fairy tale idea that like, well, surely
the gold is in the ship, because it wouldn't make
a good story if the if you know, the wood

(49:25):
was just in a pile of wood, Like it's this. See,
I want to use the word fetishize right now, which
is a perfect example of just almost meaningless at this
point to say fetishized right, um, like one of my favorites. No,
one of my favorites as well, but I do think
fetishizing Well whatever, you're rory that you're fetishizing your shit

(49:46):
or that somehow you've made in your mind, Yeah, that
for you to have gold, it has to come with
shit instead of well what if it were just gold
or something? Is that what you're saying? Like why you
feel like you're demanding that you feel like you are right,
you have some kind of mental making it more special
by noting the ship in this other weird way. I
mean This is like seven layers of me trying to

(50:07):
like hate my soul. Yeah, it sounds like you're just
modality possible. You're trying to understand how much you should
hate yourself, and I'm telling you probably not much at all.
She's gone, she's looking for a tissue. I mean, I
have I have a relevant example, but I feel like

(50:28):
which is just literally that I was so upset because
somebody mailed me on about the podcast saying, you know,
you gotta you gotta say okay, lest you say okay,
lest it's, or they posted it on a comment. I
responded with like an essay long response. We also will
note that somebody that I also recently commented, I'm sorry,
go no, no, you feel free. I mean, we've heard

(50:48):
enough of my shto that very okay. Someone recently said
they want on a shirt. Yes, so two things have occurred.
You know, we could go a couple weeks ago whenever
that was someone commented and said, you know, Jack, can
you say okay a little less? It's It was quite
a bit in this particular episode, and I, you know,
run to theta saying you gotta, you know, cut more
okays or whatever, and then I cry on the couch.

(51:12):
Yeah again about the okay, And and I'm like I
have to cry about it because it mightn't down, you
know what I mean. So it's just thing where I ground.
I was just like, so I was like forcing it out.
It's like forcing out the vomit, you know, because I
do see a lot of comparisons between meaningful comparisons to
vomiting and crying because it's like kind of like force
it out. You can sort of like be on sure
if it's gonna happen, and sometimes it just like burst

(51:33):
out of you whatever. So I was like, I was like,
and it's like that thing where you're performing the cry
almost to yourself, like to not stop it. So I
was just like I have just cried it out. It's embarrassing.
And I'm just like and I'm just like trying to
get it out faster through more forceful crying. Yeah you
know what I mean. Like I was just like, I
was like like just like a full and you know,
just whatever, it's I you know, feel embarrassed. And then

(51:56):
and then yesterday I'm cooking dinner and Chris is on
the couch and I'm like like, oh my god, CURIU
by the way, like someone coming to know how they
like the okays? Right, And so I invest at the
I was like, and you know, I mean, I guess
if I am enjoying the someone liking for the thing,
I've not solved the problem. I'm still living in the
existence of caring what other people think about me. So

(52:18):
are you okay? Right? It's like that's like the YouTube
comment issue, right. It's like I remember Chelsea pretty said
to me in two thousand and six, okay, when I
was like about something about disabling. She was talking about
disabling you know, comments on YouTube. Right. Um, She's like,
why do I have to You know, the Internet's open,
you can create a forum in which to discuss someone
you don't like me. Why do I have to give

(52:40):
you one right below my work? You know what I mean? Like,
but I have to provide one for you immediately be work.
And I was like, yeah, I was like, I know,
but I think I'm like, ah, but I want the compliments,
you know, like I don't want to disabled because she's like,
you don't you don't need you don't need them, you
don't need the compliments. It's like, and so it's like
I'm crying I'm crying at it earlier in the week,
and then I'm rejoicing that I'm liked for It's like, okay,

(53:01):
neither those things are true and real, right, Like, you know,
I don't know. Are we allowed to like being liked?
Yes we are. If you welcome a compliment is true,
it's meaningful. Oh look, so and so said I'm the
most brilliant whatever. Look at this YouTube common they get it, Okay,
YouTube commenters don't know what they're talking about. And then

(53:22):
you go to the next comment, you know, and it's
your vaginus should be filled with sand or something, was
one comment I was received, and actually even goes a
direct message. But we're also here to live and engage
with people and not be in a state of transcendence
all the time, So you know that, And that's I
do think the tears are a way that perhaps you know,
I'm brought back into the human experience out of my head. Yeah, no,

(53:47):
they're going there. Me crying on poog has been an inevitability,
okay for some time, and I'm relieved that just finally
here because now we've broken the seal. Now people know
I'm a crier. I mean, it's not Unlike when I
become a regular restaurant. The first time they you know,
see me cry, there probably a shock. But now I
know I can go to that restaurant cry freely and
it won't you know, it won't scare the maitre d Yeah.

(54:09):
And I if you're if you, if you if dealt
with depression at any point your life, I just you know,
which can be a kind of shut off of emotion.
When they come, you must let them, you must, Yes,
So I don't know that it'll probably happen more and more.
And I actually the more comfortable I get, that's the
other thing, Like, the more and more like I'm so
comfortable here with you that then the tears come. Yeah,

(54:31):
I hope. I don't know. Maybe maybe maybe this section,
maybe my crying will not be on the episode. I
don't know. If I think you're crying is radical. I
think people need to hear you cry, and you're rejoicing
in the crying and laughing through the crying. Crying should
be more. People should openly cry much more. I think
as a society we would have more potentially love for

(54:54):
ourselves and each other if we could just openly weep, right,
I mean, I think it would be a good time
to plug my book. Actually, if we may could be
a good natural plug for my book. I will say,
my book's called how do We Been Public? In case
you forgot? And it's fantastic those of you listening book
plug it's too embarrassing. But I just felt like it
was almost weird that I because I realized we're talking

(55:15):
extensively about and I'm not mentioning it, like it's like
it was this solid, big, fake fake book ad. Whatever
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