Dan McDermott, president of entertainment for AMC Networks and AMC Studios, details the world-building process that began after the company struck a wide-ranging deal with the estate of famed novelist Anne Rice. McDermott, a veteran executive and producer, explains the new TV math of developing programs and characters designed to support interlocking characters across multiple platforms that to play out over a decade or more. McDermott discusses the pros and cons of aiming so high and why it’s such a departure from pilot season of old.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
guest is Dan McDermott, President of Entertainment for a MC
and AMC Studios. Dan is an industry veteran. He was
(00:29):
part of the early days of the Fox Network and
the early days of dream Works as an executive. He
also spent many years as a producer before joining AMC Networks.
In all of that experience gives him great perspective on
how the business of content development is changing. Ask anyone
who's ever tried, It's really hard to make a good pilot,
(00:51):
But now the art of TV seems to be in
franchise management. A MC is at the outset of a
huge swing in building a metaverse content around the works
of beloved Southern Gothic novelist and Rice. The effort will
start in the fall with the series rendition of one
of her best known novels, Interview with a Vampire. McDermott
(01:11):
here offers a case study on how programming executives are
trying to think two steps and three series ahead these days,
even at the pitch stage, he details the considerations that
come up as his team works out a plan for
shows stocked with characters worthy of spinoffs. He also contrasts
the building phase on an RICE with the work they're
(01:34):
doing now on The Walking Dead, which has been a
filler of AMC's schedule since but is coming to an
end later this year. On the other end of the spectrum,
AMC is also putting energy into crafting lower budget shows
for niche streaming services like Acorn TV, Sundance Now, and Shutter.
(01:54):
It's an interesting look at how a boutique player with
big brands is navigating a world of change. That's all
coming up After the break, and we're back with Dan McDermott,
President of AMC and AMC Studios. Dan McDermott, President of
(02:18):
AMC Entertainment and AMC Studios, thank you so much for
joining me today. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here.
It's good to see you. Yeah. I appreciate the chance
to sit down and talk with you because Dan, I
know you are just a died in the world creative executive.
You have been doing this as an executive, as a programmer,
as a producer for a long time, and I really
(02:38):
wanted to get your perspective on how the business of development,
the challenges of development are changing in this every in
our ever changing media landscape, but in a world where
people are truly thinking about franchises and meta verses and
people are thinking about building. You know, multiple series is
(03:00):
multiple extensions of all kind all of the content that
you invest in. You know, right now, AMC, a big
priority for you is building up a universe of of
properties tied to a Rice, the books of Ann Rice,
the famed author. AMC did a big deal with the
(03:20):
Rice Estate and has wide broad rights to a lot
of her books. So you do the deal, you have
the I P You kind of have your sandbox. Where
where do you start next? When you know you want
to not just one great show, but many great shows?
How do you start? That's a great question. Okay, So
(03:40):
let me just start from the big picture. Okay. So
we acquired eighteen books in the Vampire Chronicles cannon Um.
They sold a hundred and fifty million copies worldwide. And
I mentioned that just because it's great context for the
reality that there's a there's a dedicated and passionate fan base.
It's very familiar with the I P. Right, and that
has a history in a relationship with it, right and
(04:01):
very you know Anne Rice just her name evokes so much,
you know, so very branded, very well branded. Yeah. Yeah,
and the and these are folks that, you know, they
care about the characters, they care about the stories, they
care about the world. So first and foremost, we had
to familiarize ourselves with all of it. I mean we
had big picture, big picture understanding, but you know, there's
(04:22):
there's dozens of characters that span you know, the story
spent two thousand years. Um uh and uh, they touch
every continent, you know, from ancient Rome to contemporary Paris,
and you know the United States and New Orleans obviously
in New York, et cetera. So we first just sort
of familiar. We spent probably six months, six eight months,
(04:45):
who you know, to familiarize ourselves with the content, really
understand it. Um we didn't read all eighteen did not.
I don't have that much time, but we have, Yeah,
we had people we obviously have. We have teams of
folks here that are dedicated to reading all the books
and and you're rating, you know, and really encapsulating all
the contents that it's digestible enough so that I can
(05:06):
look at it say okay, here's you know, here's what
we need to do. UM. And uh. The first thing
we did was, you know, I turned to Mark Johnson,
who's the producer that we have a long term relationship with,
and said, a little show called Breaking Back exactly better
called Saul. He did, you know, other shows for us,
and he's been producing movies for years and he also
was very involved in UM for Disney, the C. S.
(05:29):
Lewis books, the Chronicles of Narnia, and he did all
those movies. So you know, I turned him and I
asked him to come in and come on board as
the chief creative steward of all this from a producer,
from a producer oil perspective, to work with us on
it UM, which he, fortunately for us, agreed to do. UM.
The second thing we did was we looked at all
(05:51):
the I p you know, and said, uh, okay, we
need to create three or four pillars, right, and pillars
being three or four series that will be the pillars
of this universe, the foundations of the house, you know.
And and we chose interview with the Vampire because for
the very obvious reasons, no surprise everybody. It's the most
(06:12):
famous of her books. Probably there was a great movie,
you know, a well known movie by you know that
Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt were in Um that everybody knows.
So that's probably one of her most, if not the
most recognizable titles. And also has had two primary characters
in Lestat and Louis Duponte Lack, who are sort of
(06:33):
really well known characters in the and Rice universe. And
that's the other sort of thing that's really important when
from my perspective when you're building out a universe, is
you have to have the you know, the really recognizable
I p and then two characters who can really break
through and break out. UM. And then the second the
second book, uh, that we are in production on right now,
(06:56):
UH is in the Mayfair, which is franchise, right, so
I think she had three books. It's a Gothic historical,
you know, fantasy romance story featuring UM the Mayfair Witches,
which is a line of of which is uh divinely uh,
I guess controlled inspired by Lasher, you know, who's a
(07:17):
demon character wants to come into human form. Right. UM,
we have Alexandre Dadario playing a lead in that that
that first that the series, um uh playing Rowan Mayfair
for her breakout in White Lotus exactly, you know, so
another great character, uh starting a great actress that's really
breaking out and having a moment right now. And then
(07:40):
we have a couple other series and developments too soon
to talk about that will be the sort of second, third,
and fourth pillar in the sort of franchise that will
get this universe up and on its feet. And if
you consider that each of these shows will in a
in a best case scenario or a positive case scenario,
maybe not the best but we'll run four to sixceed, right, um,
(08:02):
and we can get a couple of so I I
envisioned us getting five to seven series over the next
five or six years up on their feet, each one
running four to six seasons with primary main characters, right,
you know, significant lead characters featuring significant stars that will
get our universe up and on its feet for the
next five to ten years. Let's say, let's say let's
(08:25):
call it a decade, right, and so that's phase one, right,
and each of those will we stand alone stories? Can
I ask you, are you thinking like one series a year.
What's the what's the cadence of Uh? Probably well, the
first two are gonna be you know, uh, I think
Interviews Vampire was going to be coming out this fall,
and make Fair, which is pretty soon after that. So
(08:45):
that's that's that's quicker than just a year. But then
the third series will probably be a year to fifteen
sixteen months beyond that in the third and fourth series,
so you know, not quite one a year, but um,
you know, probably averaging out to that, I'd say, um
and um. So once we do that, then the second
thing that's really important for us to do is you
have to develop supporting characters underneath those significant leads that
(09:10):
can and this is a process of discovery. Some of
these are in the books. Some of these might be
new characters. Some of these might be characters that you know,
have a small role in the books but have created,
you know, an oversized impact in a series, but that
can ultimately, after two or three seasons or four seasons,
spin off and become the lead of their own series.
Right and uh, and then you then you really start
(09:34):
having fun because then you then you can start pulling
characters from different shows. I do envision us five or
six years down the road having an all star you
know series, if you will, an Avengers style series where
you know, we might have the stat and Rowan Mayfair
and a lead of another series ultimately cross paths in
a storyline that you know, that can that can play
out over two or three years, you know, seasons, things
(09:55):
like that. UM, so that's the beginning of it, you know, Uh,
I mean is that a broad enough answered specific Let
me ask you are when we say series, are we
thinking like all traditional scripted TV series? Are there other
platforms that you might see this playing out on well
where we certainly have plans for supporting content in and
(10:18):
around each of these series, whether it's digital series or
podcast or you know, other iterations and things like that
that we can we can take advantage of. UM, a
little too early to talk specifically about them, but I
think in today's world, in today's entertainment landscape, a series
is just a primary you know, uh, spear on a
(10:41):
you know, on on a larger apparatus that should be
that can support that content across everything in the entertainment ecosystem.
Of course, your first thing you got, you got a
very classy project manager in Mark Johnson who also for
listeners brought us Help Bring Us Rectify, which is also
a gift to fans of good television. UM, so clearly
(11:04):
great project manager. Is it hard with with the planning
for multiple series and multiple characters? Of course, television is
known as a writer's medium, that that you know, that's
something that comes from a writer. Is it challenging to
work in that way where you know you're going to
have to work with multiple writers and multiple takes on
this world? Is it challenging to make sure that you
(11:28):
know that that what is developed is adaptable enough so
that multiple, multiple visions, multiple writers can come in. Would
that probably be kind of Marks job? Yes, that would be.
I mean that it's something that Mark is definitely um
responsible for keeping track of all the you know, the
specific characters and through lines. Um. I will say that,
(11:52):
you know totally we can we can afford to be
a little bit varied, you know, and we not only
can we afford to me we should be you know,
there should be We shouldn't feel like every series has
to be exactly you know the same, So you we
want different expressions and different different creative people coming in
with their own takes on you know, on on the
(12:14):
various stories and characters. Do you have a fair amount
of leeway with the estate. Of course, some authors can
be very very restrictive about what you can do, but
it sounds like you have you have some Yeah, this way,
these are definitely our adaptations of the books, you know,
and uh, you know into you know, none of them,
(12:34):
none of these are going to be sort of to
the letter, you know, adaptations of the books. We're definitely
bringing them into different time periods and creating different expressions. Uh,
it's very important to us to honor the spirit of
all the characters and the stories and and Rice and
everything that she's created. Um, but but we're definitely taking
(12:55):
license where we feel like it dramatically. Is is important
to do m interesting and again for you is this
is this a challenge for you as a development exect
to work in this way when we're developing just one
particular series that might be a piece of original you know,
an original idea of a writer. Um, you know, you're
thinking fairly linearly, linearly about just we need to make
(13:17):
sure that this show is is great, you know, and
and really putting all of our time and energy into
ensuring that that particular pilot or those you know X
number of episodes are terrific. The the opportunity here, and
what's really cool about what we have with all these
books is we know we're building a universe, and so
we're we're thinking across four or six or seven shows
(13:42):
and twenty or thirty characters and five or six or
seven years down the line. You know, we're trying not
to get we we have a saying here, we don't
want to get out over our skis. We don't want
to get too far ahead of ourselves. Um, keep our
eye on the ball and focus on the task at hand.
But we're we're designing something that requires us to be thinking,
(14:02):
you know, deeper and longer and further further on the
horizon than in other scenarios. And Rice is a huge initiative,
and and you've kind of started from a blank slate.
You have been with AMC now going on about two
and a half years. So you have come in now
and you are also the manager that you know, the
ultimate overseer of another hugely important, now long established franchise
(14:26):
for the company, The Walking Dead. Can you talk about
what it's like now to be coming into something that
is well established but is also at a transitional point
in its life and and something that has been you know,
undeniably transformative for AMC Networks. Yeah, I mean, uh, you know,
The Walking Dead is the is the most successful series
(14:49):
in the history of cable television, you know, and for
a period of time was the most successful series on
all of television. So, um, it's it's a thrill to
be a part of UH. Just helping shape the sort
of final season of that show, UM, and and really
(15:12):
ensure that we land the plane with in the best
possible way and really deliver UH and ending to the
mothership show between the Walking Dead that will engage in
and throw all the fans and really um be a
great payoff for the years of investment and passionate enthusiasm,
while at the same time working to extend and and
(15:37):
build out from The Walking Dead into the universe right um,
with new expressions of of UH series in the universe.
So we have a show with Norman Rita's featuring the
Darryl Dixon character that's going to take place in Europe
that we're finalizing all the creative on right now. We've
got a show with Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Lauren Cohen.
(15:58):
That's going to take place on the island of Manhattan,
which was left to the Walkers twelve years ago when
they overran Manhattan and the government decided to blow all
the bridges and tunnels and just leave the island to
the Walkers. And and it's now twelve years later, there's
a million walker herd that's sort of dominating the streets
of Manhattan. And uh, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Lauren, you know,
(16:21):
Maggie and Negan have to journey onto the island where
the small civilian population that lives in Manhattan, UM lives
above the tenth floor of all the buildings, and they
zip line back and forth, you know, above the streets,
and they have hydroponic farms, et cetera in there, and
UM so and I say all that because it's it's
(16:43):
illustrative of one of the tenants that we hold dear
when we create shows out of an existing franchise, like
The Walking Dead, which is UM we want to maintain
the integrity of the universe, right and and ensure that
we don't do anything that invalidates all the history and
(17:05):
the lore of the universe. Uh. While at the same time,
um iterating and evolving and delivering something new for the
fan base. So that, um, you know, for us, when
we look at The Walking Dad, we don't look at
it as a horror show. We look at it as
a show about humanity, right about. It's about ultimately at
(17:25):
its core, it's about how do these characters maintain their
humanity in the wake of a pandemic and you know,
zombie apocalypse, when chaos and insanity is ruling the day,
just like today. Yeah, I was just gonna, I was
just gonna like, there's so many band jokes to be
made here, but I'm not gonna. But yeah, but you know,
but that is we look, you know, the show is
really it's a it's a human drama about you know,
(17:48):
connection and maintaining connection and when life like origins of
vampire fiction itself. Yeah yeah. So anyway, So, um, one
of the significant differences with The Walking Dead and and
Um and the and Rice universe is we have just
the original graphic novel that we're that is our source
material here. So all the other iterations that we've done
(18:10):
in the Walking To universe, whether it's Fear the Walking
Dead or the Walking To the World Beyond or these
two other shows um are original pieces, right, material that
goes off of the but is not rooted in original
books or exactly. Yeah so, and you know, so we
really need to make sure we also have, by the way,
Tales of the Walking Dead um which is standalone anthology
(18:32):
stories set in the Walking Dead Universe, which is a
much more UMU adventurous uh and experimental um venture where
we tell stories that are all different kinds. You know,
we're telling stories that have sort of science fiction elements
to them or horror elements and things like that set
(18:53):
in the you know, it's a little bit of like
black Mirrors said, in the Walking Dead universe. In an
anthology format, you could do so much, like you just see,
you could do so much that would just just enliven
the fans. You can imagine just taking like slices of
beloved characters or moments. So I could say, that's what
we hope, you know, I mean, and we hope that
it's going to be really exciting for folks who love
the who love the shows to think, like, oh my gosh,
(19:16):
they're telling a story that's totally unique and different than
you know, you can never tell in one of the
others my other shows and don't draw the curtain. We'll
be right back with more from Dan McDermott of AMC Networks.
(19:40):
And we're back with more from AMC's Dan McDermott. As
we talk franchises, I mean really Breaking Bad has become
you know, AMC's has very creatively managed that property. I
gotta give credit to Peter and Vince. Um, you know,
I had to. I talked to them the other day because,
as we know, the final six episodes launched this Monday,
July eleven. Um, and it's it's a bitter sweet time.
(20:02):
It's an exciting time and a bitter sweet time because um,
they're so good and it's it really is such a
you know, and and yet we were so sad to
see the show go. But but when I was talking
to them, I was asking them about did you did
you have any idea when you created the Salt Goodman
character and Breaking Bad that there was even And they
said absolutely not. And what's what's great about them is
(20:25):
they their process is so unique and and um, and
they allow for a process of discovery, you know, like
they like they just they could never have planned for
Saul Goodman to to have his own show. But when
Breaking Bad ended and they thought, you know, it was
so great working with Bob and the way they explained
it was like they thought, this character is so interesting.
(20:46):
I wonder if we went back and really explored how
he started as Jimmy McGill and became Saul Goodman and
ultimately found his way to Walter White, you know, and
that that was just it was just that little current
that started for them, and thank god it did. You know,
in your role here, you oversee a lot of You
oversee a number of other channels, and you also oversee
(21:09):
a number of growing niche streaming services. What is it
like for you juggling everything from the expansive world of
building an an Rice universe to programming for streamers that
target but you know, Shutter targets a horror audience. Sundance
now is a very kind of art Cso Terek some genre.
(21:30):
What does that like to balance all of those, um,
you know, kind of all those malvels that you need
to feed. It's it's thrilling and and it's really instructive
and insightful. I'll elaborate because on the one hand, yes,
interview with the Vampire in the and Rice Universe is
probably the biggest venture we've ever embarked upon at the
(21:50):
you know, from from the from the ground up at
at at a MC Networks, and yet working on shows
for shutter U, which has to a passionate fan base
and doesn't have nearly the budget of uh, just about anything.
I mean, one of the one of the value propositions
of those the target s FID services is we we
(22:13):
produce content for them that anywhere between I think the
average hour of content is five or six thousand dollars,
you know, cautify and and yet the fan base is
equally as enthusiastic and rabbit and and it's it's instructive
and enlightening because it's a reminder that that quality content
and great storytelling doesn't come with a price tag attached necessarily.
(22:35):
Of course, there's big shows that all all platforms and
networks do that that might cost you know, a lot
of money, but that's no guarantee of success. It's no
guarantee of engagement, UM, And a small budget is no
guarantee of of you know, UM, A lack of engagement
and enthusiasm on the part of your fan base and
(22:57):
the what's interesting about Shutter and all I was talking
about Acorn also, which is which is a wildly successful
platform focuses on British drama, right yeah, British drama, with
some Australia New Zealand as well. But um uh, these
platforms are they don't go broad, but they go incredibly deep,
you know, and get a lot of engagement. Yeah hours
(23:17):
with you exactly. And if you like one show or
movie on Shutter, you're gonna like another one. You're gonna
like that, you know, You're gonna like Creepshow. You're gonna
like Joe Bob Briggs. You're gonna like you know, the
movies that we're commissioning in or acquiring same thing with
with Acorn TV. If you like dog Leash, you're gonna
like My Life Is Murder. You're gonna like the Chelsea Detectives.
You're gonna like you know, um, a lot of the
(23:38):
content we have on the platform, because um it really
super serves those audiences that have a demonstrated enthusiasm for
the content that they program. You must love being able
to on on your streamers. You must love being able
to see in real time what people are watching how
long they watch when they come to it is that
that's also got to be very eye opening. It's oh
(24:02):
my goodness, it's so eye opening. I mean, the the
amount of data you get in nearly real time is
so much more valuable than a Nielsen rating, you know,
with a you know, from four thousand houses in which
they have you know, it's at top boxes. Um. And
it's really instructive. And and to be able to see
what people watch first on your platform, what they watch
(24:25):
to completion, uh, and then what they watch after that
is really instructive and you can you'll learn far more
just following people's viewing patterns and viewing behavior than you
will by putting them in a room showing them a
couple episodes of television and giving them a free sandwich
in twenty bucks and saying what do you think? Yeah? Yeah,
(24:46):
you know. We we talk a lot about what what
is our value proposition in the marketplace? How do we
this this small company comparatively compete to the land of
giants of Warner Brothers, Discoveries and Disneys and ship and
paramount globals. How do we create a profile for ourselves
(25:07):
that you know is bigger and more meaningful, you know,
or as big as meaningful as we can be, uh
in this landed giants. And we we always say, look,
we're not competitive. We're not competing with any of those
other streamers or complementary with them. It's not Netflix or
a m C plus. It's Netflix and am C Plus.
And why is that is because our value proposition is
(25:28):
we aspire to be the best platform in the world
at delivering premium marquee content for adults. Um, that's the
only lane we swimming. You know. We don't do y A,
we don't do kids, we don't do animation, sports news,
all that sort of stuff. We just want to do premium,
you know, we just want to live in the world
of premium markets content for adults. And if we can
(25:48):
be great at that, you know, it's the it's the
analogy of we're not a big box store. We're your
favorite boutique, whether it's Can, it can be Gucci, it
can be Nike, it can be Lulu, Lemon, whatever. But
you know, those those those stores, those those places that
they don't do everything, but what they do do they
do exceptionally well. And that's how that's how we view ourselves.
(26:11):
And uh, and if we continue to do that, will
continue to as you say, punch outside, you know, outside
our weight class and occupy a space in the cultural landscape.
That's that's genuinely meaningful and significant and stand for something,
you know, I mean, that's what that's how we look
at how we how we source content, how we develop it,
how we produce it. M hm. Do you find I
(26:32):
mean there's so much competition, there is so much it's
an arms race of costs. COVID has added up. You know,
there's the fifteen COVID tax just in what it costs
you in in um masks and everything. How I mean,
do you see any any moderating of that. We're hearing
a little bit about people pulling back a little or
(26:53):
do you see that is that that's been spiraling for
about a year. Do you see any any slowdown? I
think people are talking about it, you know, we're we're
reading articles about it, and and you know, so it's
definitely on on folks minds. Um uh, you know. I
I believe that part of the problem for some of
the bigger, bigger streaming organizations is that they don't really
(27:17):
stand for anything other than we have a ton of stuff,
you know, and and that you know, when you talk
about value propositions in the marketplace, that is valuable. Sure,
you know for a lot of folks who maybe have
multiple generations and you know, in their household and they
want to be able to you know, um, but uh,
you can't beat standing for quality, you know, which is
what which is the pillar that is the most important
(27:38):
one for us, you know, And we also talk about uh,
you know, as I said, our mission statement, you know,
which is very important to us and and you know
is that we aspire to be recognized as the best
platform in the world for the premium market contemp for adults.
We have a real operational philosophy, which is that there
are three primary components to a great A MC show.
(28:00):
One is uh iconic breakout characters that are sort of
lightning in a bottle, you know, that become part of
the breakout and become a part of the cultural conversation. Um,
you know, Don Draper, Rick Grimes, Walter White, Villanelle Eve.
I mean these are characters that you just mentioned their
name and you know exactly what show they're a part of.
You can put them on a billboard without anything else,
(28:22):
and everybody say, oh, that's madman, that's killing eve that
you know. Um. The second component is that they usher
the audience into unique worlds or subcultures that we either
haven't seen before or haven't seen featured in this particular way.
You know, in nineteen sixties, Madison Avenue ad firm at
the dawn of the feminist movement, the civil rights movement,
the beginning of the end of the unchecked dominant or
(28:44):
the unchecked dominance of the white male patriarchy, you know, right,
and and really and and by putting that show on
the air in two thousand eight or nine, we were
able to take a very clear look back at a
moment in time and you evaluate, like, how how far
have we or have we not come today? You know,
I mean it did the what period is supposed to do,
which has put a lens on today by looking at yeah, yeah, right.
(29:07):
And and then the third component that's really important to
us as are we want to show us to entertain
and engage, of course, but as importantly we want them
to say something about the world we live in. We
want them to shine a light on our collective humanity,
the good, the bad, and the ugly. Uh and and
we don't think that's pretentious. We think that's actually a grounding,
(29:30):
uh elevating touchstone that really makes these shows relevant, you know,
whether even you know, whether it's Killing Eve or as
I said, you know earlier about with the Walking Dad
or Breaking Bad or mad Men, you know, and you'll
see that in interviews the Vampire in Mayfair, which is
in moon Haven, which you know just launched yesterday, or
(29:50):
Dark Dark Wins, I know is a big priority for you. Yeah,
that's a world that is you know, we have not
definitely not seen as much of. Yeah, and it's why
I know it's it's it's why we talked a lot
about making sure it's authentic. You know, it doesn't work
if it's not authentic, you know, let mean, if if
it's a uh, you know, a sort of water down
version of what we think a Navajo reservation is, like
(30:12):
written from Manhattan. Yeah, exactly, Dan, Thank you so much.
I appreciate you. I appreciate you letting me kind of
twenty questions with a really veteran, veteran development person. Let
me let me close by asking you this one. What
would you say from all it, from the experiences in
your career, what would you say, is the best experience
(30:35):
that you've had in the past that set you up
for where you are now? What what allowed you to
kind of get to the place you are now. I'll
give you two Okay, So, uh my, it was my
second job in the business, but it was my first
sort of like right in the middle of the series
television business. Started working at the Fox Network when we
(30:55):
were on the year two nights a week, and it
was get you to the company maybe, and I got
to I was it was my I was a really
young person, and I got to be in a lot
of meetings with Barry Diller and Peter Chernon and Ruper Murdoch.
And it was a time when Brandon tartakof famously called
the company a coat hanger network and said it would
(31:15):
never succeed, and he got mad when they moved the
sixth Thursday. But we really believed that we had we
had something, and we had a mission and and it
was informed by this notion of we will only do
a show that nobody else would do if any other
network would do it. We went to any that came
(31:36):
to Simpsons and in Living Color and uh you know,
Married with Children and uh nine O two and O
and Melos placing Party of Five and X Files. I
mean it's a it's yeah, it's a Murders one of
great shows. And so that was really that sort of
entrepreneurial spirit has stuck with me throughout my career, and
I think we have to constantly be thinking, be leaning
(32:01):
forward and leaning into new ideas and new thought, new
talent and you know, etcetera, etcetera. So that was one thing. Secondly,
we're pretty formative experience to the right place, right time,
right yeah. And and the second thing was working for
Stevensfield Oregon and Jeffrey Catzenberg and you know, David was
you know, to a less. I had less contact with David,
(32:22):
but and and just the two of them were absolutely
obsessed with telling great stories. And you know, we we
can get we can all get distracted by a big name,
you know, a big a list writer or a piece
of talent. But at the end of the day, we're
storytellers and we have to just tell great stories. And
(32:42):
that has to be that has to be the thing
that is the first, you know, the first thing we
think about when we get up in the morning, and
the last thing we think about when we go to sleep,
and are we telling great stories? Why are we telling
this story? Whose story is it? How does it meaningful?
What is it? Matt? Why does it matter? You know?
And are we doing the best job we can telling it?
You know. Jeffrey obviously an animation and and working you know,
(33:02):
I got to work for him in the TV company.
Amazing guy, you know, and so I really bring have
brought those those two just sort of a calumn experiences
are just you know, environments have informed everything I've done,
you know, for the rest of my career. Thanks for listening.
(33:26):
Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts.
We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety
dot com and subscribe to the free Strictly Business newsletter,
and don't forget to tune in next week for another
episode of Strictly Business.
Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
guest is Dan McDermott, President of Entertainment for a MC
and AMC Studios. Dan is an industry veteran. He was
(00:29):
part of the early days of the Fox Network and
the early days of dream Works as an executive. He
also spent many years as a producer before joining AMC Networks.
In all of that experience gives him great perspective on
how the business of content development is changing. Ask anyone
who's ever tried, It's really hard to make a good pilot,
(00:51):
But now the art of TV seems to be in
franchise management. A MC is at the outset of a
huge swing in building a metaverse content around the works
of beloved Southern Gothic novelist and Rice. The effort will
start in the fall with the series rendition of one
of her best known novels, Interview with a Vampire. McDermott
(01:11):
here offers a case study on how programming executives are
trying to think two steps and three series ahead these days,
even at the pitch stage, he details the considerations that
come up as his team works out a plan for
shows stocked with characters worthy of spinoffs. He also contrasts
the building phase on an RICE with the work they're
(01:34):
doing now on The Walking Dead, which has been a
filler of AMC's schedule since but is coming to an
end later this year. On the other end of the spectrum,
AMC is also putting energy into crafting lower budget shows
for niche streaming services like Acorn TV, Sundance Now, and Shutter.
(01:54):
It's an interesting look at how a boutique player with
big brands is navigating a world of change. That's all
coming up After the break, and we're back with Dan McDermott,
President of AMC and AMC Studios. Dan McDermott, President of
(02:18):
AMC Entertainment and AMC Studios, thank you so much for
joining me today. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here.
It's good to see you. Yeah. I appreciate the chance
to sit down and talk with you because Dan, I
know you are just a died in the world creative executive.
You have been doing this as an executive, as a programmer,
as a producer for a long time, and I really
(02:38):
wanted to get your perspective on how the business of development,
the challenges of development are changing in this every in
our ever changing media landscape, but in a world where
people are truly thinking about franchises and meta verses and
people are thinking about building. You know, multiple series is
(03:00):
multiple extensions of all kind all of the content that
you invest in. You know, right now, AMC, a big
priority for you is building up a universe of of
properties tied to a Rice, the books of Ann Rice,
the famed author. AMC did a big deal with the
(03:20):
Rice Estate and has wide broad rights to a lot
of her books. So you do the deal, you have
the I P You kind of have your sandbox. Where
where do you start next? When you know you want
to not just one great show, but many great shows?
How do you start? That's a great question. Okay, So
(03:40):
let me just start from the big picture. Okay. So
we acquired eighteen books in the Vampire Chronicles cannon Um.
They sold a hundred and fifty million copies worldwide. And
I mentioned that just because it's great context for the
reality that there's a there's a dedicated and passionate fan base.
It's very familiar with the I P. Right, and that
has a history in a relationship with it, right and
(04:01):
very you know Anne Rice just her name evokes so much,
you know, so very branded, very well branded. Yeah. Yeah,
and the and these are folks that, you know, they
care about the characters, they care about the stories, they
care about the world. So first and foremost, we had
to familiarize ourselves with all of it. I mean we
had big picture, big picture understanding, but you know, there's
(04:22):
there's dozens of characters that span you know, the story
spent two thousand years. Um uh and uh, they touch
every continent, you know, from ancient Rome to contemporary Paris,
and you know the United States and New Orleans obviously
in New York, et cetera. So we first just sort
of familiar. We spent probably six months, six eight months,
(04:45):
who you know, to familiarize ourselves with the content, really
understand it. Um we didn't read all eighteen did not.
I don't have that much time, but we have, Yeah,
we had people we obviously have. We have teams of
folks here that are dedicated to reading all the books
and and you're rating, you know, and really encapsulating all
the contents that it's digestible enough so that I can
(05:06):
look at it say okay, here's you know, here's what
we need to do. UM. And uh. The first thing
we did was, you know, I turned to Mark Johnson,
who's the producer that we have a long term relationship with,
and said, a little show called Breaking Back exactly better
called Saul. He did, you know, other shows for us,
and he's been producing movies for years and he also
was very involved in UM for Disney, the C. S.
(05:29):
Lewis books, the Chronicles of Narnia, and he did all
those movies. So you know, I turned him and I
asked him to come in and come on board as
the chief creative steward of all this from a producer,
from a producer oil perspective, to work with us on
it UM, which he, fortunately for us, agreed to do. UM.
The second thing we did was we looked at all
(05:51):
the I p you know, and said, uh, okay, we
need to create three or four pillars, right, and pillars
being three or four series that will be the pillars
of this universe, the foundations of the house, you know.
And and we chose interview with the Vampire because for
the very obvious reasons, no surprise everybody. It's the most
(06:12):
famous of her books. Probably there was a great movie,
you know, a well known movie by you know that
Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt were in Um that everybody knows.
So that's probably one of her most, if not the
most recognizable titles. And also has had two primary characters
in Lestat and Louis Duponte Lack, who are sort of
(06:33):
really well known characters in the and Rice universe. And
that's the other sort of thing that's really important when
from my perspective when you're building out a universe, is
you have to have the you know, the really recognizable
I p and then two characters who can really break
through and break out. UM. And then the second the
second book, uh, that we are in production on right now,
(06:56):
UH is in the Mayfair, which is franchise, right, so
I think she had three books. It's a Gothic historical,
you know, fantasy romance story featuring UM the Mayfair Witches,
which is a line of of which is uh divinely uh,
I guess controlled inspired by Lasher, you know, who's a
(07:17):
demon character wants to come into human form. Right. UM,
we have Alexandre Dadario playing a lead in that that
that first that the series, um uh playing Rowan Mayfair
for her breakout in White Lotus exactly, you know, so
another great character, uh starting a great actress that's really
breaking out and having a moment right now. And then
(07:40):
we have a couple other series and developments too soon
to talk about that will be the sort of second, third,
and fourth pillar in the sort of franchise that will
get this universe up and on its feet. And if
you consider that each of these shows will in a
in a best case scenario or a positive case scenario,
maybe not the best but we'll run four to sixceed, right, um,
(08:02):
and we can get a couple of so I I
envisioned us getting five to seven series over the next
five or six years up on their feet, each one
running four to six seasons with primary main characters, right,
you know, significant lead characters featuring significant stars that will
get our universe up and on its feet for the
next five to ten years. Let's say, let's say let's
(08:25):
call it a decade, right, and so that's phase one, right,
and each of those will we stand alone stories? Can
I ask you, are you thinking like one series a year.
What's the what's the cadence of Uh? Probably well, the
first two are gonna be you know, uh, I think
Interviews Vampire was going to be coming out this fall,
and make Fair, which is pretty soon after that. So
(08:45):
that's that's that's quicker than just a year. But then
the third series will probably be a year to fifteen
sixteen months beyond that in the third and fourth series,
so you know, not quite one a year, but um,
you know, probably averaging out to that, I'd say, um
and um. So once we do that, then the second
thing that's really important for us to do is you
have to develop supporting characters underneath those significant leads that
(09:10):
can and this is a process of discovery. Some of
these are in the books. Some of these might be
new characters. Some of these might be characters that you know,
have a small role in the books but have created,
you know, an oversized impact in a series, but that
can ultimately, after two or three seasons or four seasons,
spin off and become the lead of their own series.
Right and uh, and then you then you really start
(09:34):
having fun because then you then you can start pulling
characters from different shows. I do envision us five or
six years down the road having an all star you
know series, if you will, an Avengers style series where
you know, we might have the stat and Rowan Mayfair
and a lead of another series ultimately cross paths in
a storyline that you know, that can that can play
out over two or three years, you know, seasons, things
(09:55):
like that. UM, so that's the beginning of it, you know, Uh,
I mean is that a broad enough answered specific Let
me ask you are when we say series, are we
thinking like all traditional scripted TV series? Are there other
platforms that you might see this playing out on well
where we certainly have plans for supporting content in and
(10:18):
around each of these series, whether it's digital series or
podcast or you know, other iterations and things like that
that we can we can take advantage of. UM, a
little too early to talk specifically about them, but I
think in today's world, in today's entertainment landscape, a series
is just a primary you know, uh, spear on a
(10:41):
you know, on on a larger apparatus that should be
that can support that content across everything in the entertainment ecosystem.
Of course, your first thing you got, you got a
very classy project manager in Mark Johnson who also for
listeners brought us Help Bring Us Rectify, which is also
a gift to fans of good television. UM, so clearly
(11:04):
great project manager. Is it hard with with the planning
for multiple series and multiple characters? Of course, television is
known as a writer's medium, that that you know, that's
something that comes from a writer. Is it challenging to
work in that way where you know you're going to
have to work with multiple writers and multiple takes on
this world? Is it challenging to make sure that you
(11:28):
know that that what is developed is adaptable enough so
that multiple, multiple visions, multiple writers can come in. Would
that probably be kind of Marks job? Yes, that would be.
I mean that it's something that Mark is definitely um
responsible for keeping track of all the you know, the
specific characters and through lines. Um. I will say that,
(11:52):
you know totally we can we can afford to be
a little bit varied, you know, and we not only
can we afford to me we should be you know,
there should be We shouldn't feel like every series has
to be exactly you know the same, So you we
want different expressions and different different creative people coming in
with their own takes on you know, on on the
(12:14):
various stories and characters. Do you have a fair amount
of leeway with the estate. Of course, some authors can
be very very restrictive about what you can do, but
it sounds like you have you have some Yeah, this way,
these are definitely our adaptations of the books, you know,
and uh, you know into you know, none of them,
(12:34):
none of these are going to be sort of to
the letter, you know, adaptations of the books. We're definitely
bringing them into different time periods and creating different expressions. Uh,
it's very important to us to honor the spirit of
all the characters and the stories and and Rice and
everything that she's created. Um, but but we're definitely taking
(12:55):
license where we feel like it dramatically. Is is important
to do m interesting and again for you is this
is this a challenge for you as a development exect
to work in this way when we're developing just one
particular series that might be a piece of original you know,
an original idea of a writer. Um, you know, you're
thinking fairly linearly, linearly about just we need to make
(13:17):
sure that this show is is great, you know, and
and really putting all of our time and energy into
ensuring that that particular pilot or those you know X
number of episodes are terrific. The the opportunity here, and
what's really cool about what we have with all these
books is we know we're building a universe, and so
we're we're thinking across four or six or seven shows
(13:42):
and twenty or thirty characters and five or six or
seven years down the line. You know, we're trying not
to get we we have a saying here, we don't
want to get out over our skis. We don't want
to get too far ahead of ourselves. Um, keep our
eye on the ball and focus on the task at hand.
But we're we're designing something that requires us to be thinking,
(14:02):
you know, deeper and longer and further further on the
horizon than in other scenarios. And Rice is a huge initiative,
and and you've kind of started from a blank slate.
You have been with AMC now going on about two
and a half years. So you have come in now
and you are also the manager that you know, the
ultimate overseer of another hugely important, now long established franchise
(14:26):
for the company, The Walking Dead. Can you talk about
what it's like now to be coming into something that
is well established but is also at a transitional point
in its life and and something that has been you know,
undeniably transformative for AMC Networks. Yeah, I mean, uh, you know,
The Walking Dead is the is the most successful series
(14:49):
in the history of cable television, you know, and for
a period of time was the most successful series on
all of television. So, um, it's it's a thrill to
be a part of UH. Just helping shape the sort
of final season of that show, UM, and and really
(15:12):
ensure that we land the plane with in the best
possible way and really deliver UH and ending to the
mothership show between the Walking Dead that will engage in
and throw all the fans and really um be a
great payoff for the years of investment and passionate enthusiasm,
while at the same time working to extend and and
(15:37):
build out from The Walking Dead into the universe right um,
with new expressions of of UH series in the universe.
So we have a show with Norman Rita's featuring the
Darryl Dixon character that's going to take place in Europe
that we're finalizing all the creative on right now. We've
got a show with Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Lauren Cohen.
(15:58):
That's going to take place on the island of Manhattan,
which was left to the Walkers twelve years ago when
they overran Manhattan and the government decided to blow all
the bridges and tunnels and just leave the island to
the Walkers. And and it's now twelve years later, there's
a million walker herd that's sort of dominating the streets
of Manhattan. And uh, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Lauren, you know,
(16:21):
Maggie and Negan have to journey onto the island where
the small civilian population that lives in Manhattan, UM lives
above the tenth floor of all the buildings, and they
zip line back and forth, you know, above the streets,
and they have hydroponic farms, et cetera in there, and
UM so and I say all that because it's it's
(16:43):
illustrative of one of the tenants that we hold dear
when we create shows out of an existing franchise, like
The Walking Dead, which is UM we want to maintain
the integrity of the universe, right and and ensure that
we don't do anything that invalidates all the history and
(17:05):
the lore of the universe. Uh. While at the same time,
um iterating and evolving and delivering something new for the
fan base. So that, um, you know, for us, when
we look at The Walking Dad, we don't look at
it as a horror show. We look at it as
a show about humanity, right about. It's about ultimately at
(17:25):
its core, it's about how do these characters maintain their
humanity in the wake of a pandemic and you know,
zombie apocalypse, when chaos and insanity is ruling the day,
just like today. Yeah, I was just gonna, I was
just gonna like, there's so many band jokes to be
made here, but I'm not gonna. But yeah, but you know,
but that is we look, you know, the show is
really it's a it's a human drama about you know,
(17:48):
connection and maintaining connection and when life like origins of
vampire fiction itself. Yeah yeah. So anyway, So, um, one
of the significant differences with The Walking Dead and and
Um and the and Rice universe is we have just
the original graphic novel that we're that is our source
material here. So all the other iterations that we've done
(18:10):
in the Walking To universe, whether it's Fear the Walking
Dead or the Walking To the World Beyond or these
two other shows um are original pieces, right, material that
goes off of the but is not rooted in original
books or exactly. Yeah so, and you know, so we
really need to make sure we also have, by the way,
Tales of the Walking Dead um which is standalone anthology
(18:32):
stories set in the Walking Dead Universe, which is a
much more UMU adventurous uh and experimental um venture where
we tell stories that are all different kinds. You know,
we're telling stories that have sort of science fiction elements
to them or horror elements and things like that set
(18:53):
in the you know, it's a little bit of like
black Mirrors said, in the Walking Dead universe. In an
anthology format, you could do so much, like you just see,
you could do so much that would just just enliven
the fans. You can imagine just taking like slices of
beloved characters or moments. So I could say, that's what
we hope, you know, I mean, and we hope that
it's going to be really exciting for folks who love
the who love the shows to think, like, oh my gosh,
(19:16):
they're telling a story that's totally unique and different than
you know, you can never tell in one of the
others my other shows and don't draw the curtain. We'll
be right back with more from Dan McDermott of AMC Networks.
(19:40):
And we're back with more from AMC's Dan McDermott. As
we talk franchises, I mean really Breaking Bad has become
you know, AMC's has very creatively managed that property. I
gotta give credit to Peter and Vince. Um, you know,
I had to. I talked to them the other day because,
as we know, the final six episodes launched this Monday,
July eleven. Um, and it's it's a bitter sweet time.
(20:02):
It's an exciting time and a bitter sweet time because um,
they're so good and it's it really is such a
you know, and and yet we were so sad to
see the show go. But but when I was talking
to them, I was asking them about did you did
you have any idea when you created the Salt Goodman
character and Breaking Bad that there was even And they
said absolutely not. And what's what's great about them is
(20:25):
they their process is so unique and and um, and
they allow for a process of discovery, you know, like
they like they just they could never have planned for
Saul Goodman to to have his own show. But when
Breaking Bad ended and they thought, you know, it was
so great working with Bob and the way they explained
it was like they thought, this character is so interesting.
(20:46):
I wonder if we went back and really explored how
he started as Jimmy McGill and became Saul Goodman and
ultimately found his way to Walter White, you know, and
that that was just it was just that little current
that started for them, and thank god it did. You know,
in your role here, you oversee a lot of You
oversee a number of other channels, and you also oversee
(21:09):
a number of growing niche streaming services. What is it
like for you juggling everything from the expansive world of
building an an Rice universe to programming for streamers that
target but you know, Shutter targets a horror audience. Sundance
now is a very kind of art Cso Terek some genre.
(21:30):
What does that like to balance all of those, um,
you know, kind of all those malvels that you need
to feed. It's it's thrilling and and it's really instructive
and insightful. I'll elaborate because on the one hand, yes,
interview with the Vampire in the and Rice Universe is
probably the biggest venture we've ever embarked upon at the
(21:50):
you know, from from the from the ground up at
at at a MC Networks, and yet working on shows
for shutter U, which has to a passionate fan base
and doesn't have nearly the budget of uh, just about anything.
I mean, one of the one of the value propositions
of those the target s FID services is we we
(22:13):
produce content for them that anywhere between I think the
average hour of content is five or six thousand dollars,
you know, cautify and and yet the fan base is
equally as enthusiastic and rabbit and and it's it's instructive
and enlightening because it's a reminder that that quality content
and great storytelling doesn't come with a price tag attached necessarily.
(22:35):
Of course, there's big shows that all all platforms and
networks do that that might cost you know, a lot
of money, but that's no guarantee of success. It's no
guarantee of engagement, UM, And a small budget is no
guarantee of of you know, UM, A lack of engagement
and enthusiasm on the part of your fan base and
(22:57):
the what's interesting about Shutter and all I was talking
about Acorn also, which is which is a wildly successful
platform focuses on British drama, right yeah, British drama, with
some Australia New Zealand as well. But um uh, these
platforms are they don't go broad, but they go incredibly deep,
you know, and get a lot of engagement. Yeah hours
(23:17):
with you exactly. And if you like one show or
movie on Shutter, you're gonna like another one. You're gonna
like that, you know, You're gonna like Creepshow. You're gonna
like Joe Bob Briggs. You're gonna like you know, the
movies that we're commissioning in or acquiring same thing with
with Acorn TV. If you like dog Leash, you're gonna
like My Life Is Murder. You're gonna like the Chelsea Detectives.
You're gonna like you know, um, a lot of the
(23:38):
content we have on the platform, because um it really
super serves those audiences that have a demonstrated enthusiasm for
the content that they program. You must love being able
to on on your streamers. You must love being able
to see in real time what people are watching how
long they watch when they come to it is that
that's also got to be very eye opening. It's oh
(24:02):
my goodness, it's so eye opening. I mean, the the
amount of data you get in nearly real time is
so much more valuable than a Nielsen rating, you know,
with a you know, from four thousand houses in which
they have you know, it's at top boxes. Um. And
it's really instructive. And and to be able to see
what people watch first on your platform, what they watch
(24:25):
to completion, uh, and then what they watch after that
is really instructive and you can you'll learn far more
just following people's viewing patterns and viewing behavior than you
will by putting them in a room showing them a
couple episodes of television and giving them a free sandwich
in twenty bucks and saying what do you think? Yeah? Yeah,
(24:46):
you know. We we talk a lot about what what
is our value proposition in the marketplace? How do we
this this small company comparatively compete to the land of
giants of Warner Brothers, Discoveries and Disneys and ship and
paramount globals. How do we create a profile for ourselves
(25:07):
that you know is bigger and more meaningful, you know,
or as big as meaningful as we can be, uh
in this landed giants. And we we always say, look,
we're not competitive. We're not competing with any of those
other streamers or complementary with them. It's not Netflix or
a m C plus. It's Netflix and am C Plus.
And why is that is because our value proposition is
(25:28):
we aspire to be the best platform in the world
at delivering premium marquee content for adults. Um, that's the
only lane we swimming. You know. We don't do y A,
we don't do kids, we don't do animation, sports news,
all that sort of stuff. We just want to do premium,
you know, we just want to live in the world
of premium markets content for adults. And if we can
(25:48):
be great at that, you know, it's the it's the
analogy of we're not a big box store. We're your
favorite boutique, whether it's Can, it can be Gucci, it
can be Nike, it can be Lulu, Lemon, whatever. But
you know, those those those stores, those those places that
they don't do everything, but what they do do they
do exceptionally well. And that's how that's how we view ourselves.
(26:11):
And uh, and if we continue to do that, will
continue to as you say, punch outside, you know, outside
our weight class and occupy a space in the cultural landscape.
That's that's genuinely meaningful and significant and stand for something,
you know, I mean, that's what that's how we look
at how we how we source content, how we develop it,
how we produce it. M hm. Do you find I
(26:32):
mean there's so much competition, there is so much it's
an arms race of costs. COVID has added up. You know,
there's the fifteen COVID tax just in what it costs
you in in um masks and everything. How I mean,
do you see any any moderating of that. We're hearing
a little bit about people pulling back a little or
(26:53):
do you see that is that that's been spiraling for
about a year. Do you see any any slowdown? I
think people are talking about it, you know, we're we're
reading articles about it, and and you know, so it's
definitely on on folks minds. Um uh, you know. I
I believe that part of the problem for some of
the bigger, bigger streaming organizations is that they don't really
(27:17):
stand for anything other than we have a ton of stuff,
you know, and and that you know, when you talk
about value propositions in the marketplace, that is valuable. Sure,
you know for a lot of folks who maybe have
multiple generations and you know, in their household and they
want to be able to you know, um, but uh,
you can't beat standing for quality, you know, which is
what which is the pillar that is the most important
(27:38):
one for us, you know, And we also talk about uh,
you know, as I said, our mission statement, you know,
which is very important to us and and you know
is that we aspire to be recognized as the best
platform in the world for the premium market contemp for adults.
We have a real operational philosophy, which is that there
are three primary components to a great A MC show.
(28:00):
One is uh iconic breakout characters that are sort of
lightning in a bottle, you know, that become part of
the breakout and become a part of the cultural conversation. Um,
you know, Don Draper, Rick Grimes, Walter White, Villanelle Eve.
I mean these are characters that you just mentioned their
name and you know exactly what show they're a part of.
You can put them on a billboard without anything else,
(28:22):
and everybody say, oh, that's madman, that's killing eve that
you know. Um. The second component is that they usher
the audience into unique worlds or subcultures that we either
haven't seen before or haven't seen featured in this particular way.
You know, in nineteen sixties, Madison Avenue ad firm at
the dawn of the feminist movement, the civil rights movement,
the beginning of the end of the unchecked dominant or
(28:44):
the unchecked dominance of the white male patriarchy, you know, right,
and and really and and by putting that show on
the air in two thousand eight or nine, we were
able to take a very clear look back at a
moment in time and you evaluate, like, how how far
have we or have we not come today? You know,
I mean it did the what period is supposed to do,
which has put a lens on today by looking at yeah, yeah, right.
(29:07):
And and then the third component that's really important to
us as are we want to show us to entertain
and engage, of course, but as importantly we want them
to say something about the world we live in. We
want them to shine a light on our collective humanity,
the good, the bad, and the ugly. Uh and and
we don't think that's pretentious. We think that's actually a grounding,
(29:30):
uh elevating touchstone that really makes these shows relevant, you know,
whether even you know, whether it's Killing Eve or as
I said, you know earlier about with the Walking Dad
or Breaking Bad or mad Men, you know, and you'll
see that in interviews the Vampire in Mayfair, which is
in moon Haven, which you know just launched yesterday, or
(29:50):
Dark Dark Wins, I know is a big priority for you. Yeah,
that's a world that is you know, we have not
definitely not seen as much of. Yeah, and it's why
I know it's it's it's why we talked a lot
about making sure it's authentic. You know, it doesn't work
if it's not authentic, you know, let mean, if if
it's a uh, you know, a sort of water down
version of what we think a Navajo reservation is, like
(30:12):
written from Manhattan. Yeah, exactly, Dan, Thank you so much.
I appreciate you. I appreciate you letting me kind of
twenty questions with a really veteran, veteran development person. Let
me let me close by asking you this one. What
would you say from all it, from the experiences in
your career, what would you say, is the best experience
(30:35):
that you've had in the past that set you up
for where you are now? What what allowed you to
kind of get to the place you are now. I'll
give you two Okay, So, uh my, it was my
second job in the business, but it was my first
sort of like right in the middle of the series
television business. Started working at the Fox Network when we
(30:55):
were on the year two nights a week, and it
was get you to the company maybe, and I got
to I was it was my I was a really
young person, and I got to be in a lot
of meetings with Barry Diller and Peter Chernon and Ruper Murdoch.
And it was a time when Brandon tartakof famously called
the company a coat hanger network and said it would
(31:15):
never succeed, and he got mad when they moved the
sixth Thursday. But we really believed that we had we
had something, and we had a mission and and it
was informed by this notion of we will only do
a show that nobody else would do if any other
network would do it. We went to any that came
(31:36):
to Simpsons and in Living Color and uh you know,
Married with Children and uh nine O two and O
and Melos placing Party of Five and X Files. I
mean it's a it's yeah, it's a Murders one of
great shows. And so that was really that sort of
entrepreneurial spirit has stuck with me throughout my career, and
I think we have to constantly be thinking, be leaning
(32:01):
forward and leaning into new ideas and new thought, new
talent and you know, etcetera, etcetera. So that was one thing. Secondly,
we're pretty formative experience to the right place, right time,
right yeah. And and the second thing was working for
Stevensfield Oregon and Jeffrey Catzenberg and you know, David was
you know, to a less. I had less contact with David,
(32:22):
but and and just the two of them were absolutely
obsessed with telling great stories. And you know, we we
can get we can all get distracted by a big name,
you know, a big a list writer or a piece
of talent. But at the end of the day, we're
storytellers and we have to just tell great stories. And
(32:42):
that has to be that has to be the thing
that is the first, you know, the first thing we
think about when we get up in the morning, and
the last thing we think about when we go to sleep,
and are we telling great stories? Why are we telling
this story? Whose story is it? How does it meaningful?
What is it? Matt? Why does it matter? You know?
And are we doing the best job we can telling it?
You know. Jeffrey obviously an animation and and working you know,
(33:02):
I got to work for him in the TV company.
Amazing guy, you know, and so I really bring have
brought those those two just sort of a calumn experiences
are just you know, environments have informed everything I've done,
you know, for the rest of my career. Thanks for listening.
(33:26):
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