Phil Hutcheon, the CEO of London-based ticketing software company Dice, sat down with Strictly Business to reflect on 10 years of revolutionizing the ticketing industry. Dice's fan- and artist-forward mission takes a strong stance against scalping and dynamic pricing, which earned it a loyal following in the U.K. before expanding to the U.S. and Canada. Next stop: the world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Elie Schaeffer, Variety's London news editor, and this marks my
first full Strictly Business episode, which is very exciting. This
week I sat down with Phil Hutcheon, the CEO of Dice,
a London based ticketing software company that's taking the market
(00:28):
by storm with its artist and fan forward mission. After
spending a decade in the music industry, Hutchin founded the
company in twenty fourteen with the aim of making live
events more accessible by taking a stance against scalping and
dynamic pricing. As it celebrates its tenth anniversary, Dice has
expanded to over a dozen US cities and also recently
launched in Canada, but has kept a strong local focus.
(00:51):
As you will hear on the episode, I use Dice
probably every week here in London, not just for concerts,
but for club nights, comedy shows and more. Keep on
starting to hear more about how Dice is revolutionizing the
ticketing industry by delivering a fan friendly experience, helping artists
book the right that news and making it easier to
go out than ever. Plus, Phil offers his thoughts on
the recent Taylor Swift at Oasis ticketing tobacles and why
(01:15):
being part of the middle.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Market is DICE's superpower.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
And that's all coming up after this break, and we're
back with Phil Hutchins, CEO of Dice.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Tell me a bit about how Dice started. Give me
the origin story.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Okay, cool. So, so my background was in product contech
and then I went into the music industry and not
really knowing anyone in the music industry, and it was
during that time when we were looking after artists who
were performing, particularly in North America, and we do deals
with that shows and we're like, cool, it's let's do it.
(02:00):
And it's like thirty dollars a ticket, and then I
would go and sale and it was like fifty and
I'm like, hang on a minute, why is it fifty
when we just did it for thirty And so they
were like, oh, that's just the fees, and and then
it'd sell out and then the tickets were going for
hundreds of dollars and then the fans were getting really upset,
and I was just like, how is this like even possible?
(02:22):
So I tried all the different ticketing companies to see
what was going on, but everyone was kind of just
doing the same thing. And so the I figured that
you're bringing like my past experience plus music to like,
well if no one else has got to solve this,
and solving it is like scalping, you know, upfront pricing
(02:42):
your discovery. How do you find things all that kind
of stuff and actually build something for fans, then I
guess that we have to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, absolutely, And starting out, what was the team like,
so it was you and then how do you sort
of build this team and actually get it to to
the point where you could live with it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
So we we actually, uh, it was a team, like
it was super small, so you know, Mio was our
CTEO engineer everything like this journal, you know, a lot
of the actual development designers, a couple of designers and
a couple of people who are new from from music.
It was small and we actually, you know, because everyone
(03:22):
said that it's not going to work. Everyone said that
on you know, it's like a futile thing to do.
And also like would people trust like a new product
that came to the market, And so we actually had
a fake brand called Tisie for like a couple of months,
which uh just you know, pulling in favors from you know,
(03:43):
artists and stuff like, hey, can media tickets just to
scene whether or not a fan would go to something
that is new and buy a ticket on it, and
they did. I'm like, okay, that's that's kind of cool.
And then we pulled in more favors from the music
industry to get sort of bigger shows on And yeah,
I think that one thing that I still trying to
(04:03):
remind people today is that online audiences and like physical audiences,
like the number is like it's crazy for your brain
to understand. So for example, if you have like an
online audience or your media company you have like ten
thousand views, you're like, eh, that's okay. But actually, if
you're in a space when you have ten thousand people,
(04:24):
there's actually a lot of people. And so our first
show after a month, we had like ten thousand people
and we sold ten thousand tickets and all high fiving,
and then we got there and it was like a
team of six and we're like, how are we going
to get all these people in? And so it was Yeah,
So it's kind of I think that a lot of naivety.
None of us had any ticketing experience, to be honest, Like,
(04:47):
before all this, I didn't even care about ticketing, But
then the more that we looked into it, and like
how important is in terms of that relationship for the
between the fan and the artist and getting people in
and making a fun and everything else. Like, yeah, we
just wanted to do a good job for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And did it start in London?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Okay, yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
What was I guess special about London that sort of
fueled this idea? Do you feel like you could have
started it anywhere else or do you think London was
helpful in this That's.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
A really good question because it's I actually think that
starting in London gave us a huge advantage. It's so
competitive in London, and it really is like you got
to like be so much better than everyone else. And
actually one of our early investors really pushed me not
(05:38):
to expand outside of London until we got like product
market fit. So it was a time when you know,
because we're you know, a city based platform, that we
saw all these other companies like launching everywhere and raising
tons of money and we were just in London and
I was like, surely we've got to go and here
(06:00):
was like not to stay here, just make sure that
all of the metrics are right, and we did, and
all those other companies are kind of gone. But I
think that what happened was that as soon as we
left London, we had like a fully formed product and
we knew exactly know how to do it. And I
guess that maybe there's like a parallel with Spotify starting
(06:21):
in Sweden, you know, really sort of getting it right
and then going out. But for sure, if we started
it in America, like we would have been killed like
pretty early on. So yeah, there is also like a
like an industry advantage I think of being in London.
A lot of the agents are here, a lot of
artists love playing in London, so you know, there's a
(06:41):
lot of shows. I should also say, because of my
naivet tickening and life and everything else, I really thought
that we would have like two hundred shows in London.
That's about it. A little didn't note Like I think
now we've got like a hundred at night. Like it's
there's so much going on. And one of the things
up being a platform is quite often we get asked,
(07:04):
like you know, you're in conversation with an artist or
a manager and let's oh, ticket sales to going down
or tools. But because we see everything always sly. Every
month is like more and more people going out and
shows selling out and everything else. So it's yeah, it's
it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I think also London has such a unique sort of
music culture and that there's pub culture, right, and so
I think the biggest thing for me coming from LA
was being able to go to any given pub on
a Tuesday night and there's a band playing in the
back and they're amazing. Yeah, you know, and it feels
it feels much more organic maybe than other cities. There's
(07:42):
much more. It feels like to me, there's much more
of this like underground, and I think like when I
started buying tickets on dice, that's like what I was,
you know, buying tickets to or these like little shows
at these little little pubs that you know, I think
maybe people wouldn't have heard of, but you sort of
stumble upon them. More is just like oh, we want
to go to this bar, we want to go to
this pub, and like, let's buy a ticket to this.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, And that's actually my favorite show is like a tiny, small,
free show, and I like seeing someone starting out and
it's super exciting. And that's actually one of the things
that we wanted to help with is discovery because there's
so much music and so the you know, in the
olden days, you'd have like listings, you know, in like
(08:27):
free newspapers in the city, and so with Dice was
like that investment into our discovery and the algorithms. I
mean it took us three and a half years to
get that working like properly because we only use our
own data. We're very pro privacy and trying to like
bring that in. But you know, getting people excited about
seeing something new, it's like the biggest thrill, Like you know,
(08:50):
seeing people's comments never heard of this artist, and like yeah,
it blows their minds.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I mean I know I get my notification.
I think it's every Thursday. Can you tell that you
dice all the time, And it's like, you know, bands
that you might might like, and like, I know, me
and my friends we literally use that. We scroll on Dice,
we go check out our favorite venues, yeah, and see
who's playing. And also you know, linking it with Spotify.
I think it's just like so smart because I never
(09:16):
miss a show of one of my favorite artists.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
It's interesting that so we use Spotify to get like
a warm sort of introduction, so that if you're new
to Dice, you Spotify, you're like, Okay, what are you
listening to? But it's not as tight a correlation between
your listening and what you want to go to as
you might think. You might listen to techno all day,
but you don't want to go to a club, or
(09:40):
you might be listening to sing the songwriters all day
or our classical music or whatever else, right, and like
pulling those things up, and then also like you might
be listening to something, but your favorite band is something
that you listen to ten years ago, and so it's like,
so what we have is look alikes, and so we're
able to kind of pull the data from other fans
and Dice to give you, you know what, more of
(10:01):
like the life recommendations. But it's cool, that's news shows Thursday.
So that was trying to create like data products within
Dice that make it easy for people to figure out
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Absolutely yeah, I mean, I think that's such an interesting
part of Dice that makes it stand out is like
the community aspect as well. It's sort of a social
media platform, which we've seen also with Spotify. You know,
one of my favorite things to do is see what
my friends are listening to. And on Dice you were
able to connect with your friends and share tickets and
share shows. Tell me a bit about you know why
that was so important to you know DICE's I guess core, Yeah,
(10:37):
because it's.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Like the first principle is like, you know why we
did Dice is the you know, why is it that
one of the best experiences that you can go to,
maybe something that you remember forever, starts off in such
a crappy like situation when you're buying a ticket and
so like fixing that make it like really exciting at
(10:57):
the beginning. But so we see the world in three stages.
So the first is the anticipation to the event, which
is not just like an event but I hold anything else.
Anticipation is like super important. Then it's the participation actually
been at the event, and then like the memory that
you have afterwards. And so for us like all these
things have seen your friends. I mean, fomo is a
(11:18):
pretty big thing on Dice. When you see your friends
go into something, right, and so you're like, I probably
should go. But that's also something that we're going to
be dialing up a lot in twenty twenty five. I see,
you know, the idea of I think people are moving
away from like you know, well, I want to have
something different than to sort of large scale sort of
(11:38):
social media. And actually, you know, you do have a
lot of commonality when you go see an artist or
a show or a club night or anything else, and
allow people to interact more on dice around that and
really get into more around community. And then with that
with community, allowing artists to participate in that as well
(11:58):
and getting them to chat.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah. So yeah, tell me a bit about you know,
the artist's aspect of things and how you work with
artists to make the experience unique.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
So first of all, it's like it's a just taking
that paid away from them where they don't have, you know,
articles about how they're exploiting fans, so that these guys
it's gone, Yeah, there's no anything there. So like it's
it's like a safe place for them to do it.
I think also, you know, working with the venues and
the promoters is helping them figure out like how big
(12:28):
the show should be. You know, it's not again, it's
not like a one for one in terms of you
sell out a show and the natural instinct, okay, we
need to do a bigger show. Sometimes everyone who wants
to see you is seeing you at that show and
like yeah, So we're able to help them like figure out,
is there really demand to go bigger or do you
(12:49):
need to like be out of the city for a
while because a live event is scarce. And also like
there's a thing where you assume that's someone who went
to something, we'll just want to keep going back again,
but actually they want to go to lots of things,
and so it's trying to help artists to avoid like
those traps but also see the opportunities because on the
(13:11):
other side, sometimes we'll get, for example, some Korean acts
will just come in and we've never heard of them,
and they'll play like a three thousand capacity venue and
no one has any idea like how big it's going
to be, and then we've got like twenty thousand people
on the wait list. Wow, And so from that we're
able to help them like generate, like you know, do
(13:33):
more shows or do matinees or whatever else like from that,
but help them also like use that data to go
to other cities as well.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Absolutely, And tell me a bit about the waiting list aspect,
because that's one of my favorite, I guess aspects of DICE.
Like I've been able to get tickets to shows that
I've like, I've think pretty much almost every show that
I put myself on the waiting list to like because
you have that notification and you get you know, it
reserves those tickets for you. So as long as you're
able to like log on and get the tickets, you're golden.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, tell me a bit about developing that and you
know why it's important to DICE's mission.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, because the so life happens the idea that you
buy tickets to an event but you can't make it,
and it's like two things. One is that you know,
the if the show doesn't sell out, we don't activate
the weightlist, and that's just you know, this is an
aside thing that that's because that the artists and the
promoter and everyone else has spent so much money in
(14:30):
putting on that event. If everyone was able to get
a refund, then those events just wouldn't happen. They just can't.
But if it's sold out, and this is the thing
that people are always shocked about. So when we know
that when someone gets a ticket on a waitlist and Dice,
that's it, they're locked into Dice forever because it is
like such a mind blowing experience because something is sold
out and you add yourself and you're like, yeah, sure
(14:52):
that's going to happen. And there's two behavioral points from
a fan. So what we see is that either fans
return their ticket it's almost immediately after buying them because
they realize they have a conflict. So they've bought four
tickets to something and they're like, I'll go go to
wedding or whatever it is. Or it's just like a
week or so before the show and they would turn
(15:14):
like one or two of their tickets because someone's dropped out.
And it is annoying, Like when if your friend has
dropped out.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Last week and I didn't buy it on Dice, so
I had to like sell it on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It was a whole thing. Yeah, that's right. And to
just be able to just do that and have that
happy sort of fan path. What we didn't realize is
like how beneficial waiting list is for venues because you
when we spoke to venues when they have like you know,
the secondary switched on, you have lots of speculators buying
(15:49):
tickets and a lot of that inventory gets on sold,
like those tickets get unsold, and so you we found
out that on average a venue only gets to like
eighty five percent capacity for a sold at show, but
if you got weightless, it's like nine to nine percent.
And so for us, it's like we we do be
(16:09):
a math where we're like, Okay, there's actually people who
come to the venue, like look how much money they're
going to spend at the venue. But it's like trying
to you know, it's kind of we love the fact
that you're creating this amazing thing for a fan and
it's actually benefiting everyone because you know that money's getting
reinvested into the industry.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Absolutely and obviously it helps a lot with you know,
this phenomenon we've seen just grow more and more recently,
which is the scalping situation. Yeah yeah, I mean, tell
me a bit about combating that. And you know, I mean,
if correct me if I'm wrong, But I feel like
dice is like you can't really scalp on dice. No.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, So it's the thing that was super important to
us that the it was to protect fans and artists
from you know, the institutional like you know resellers who
are just buying stuff not because they're fans, because they
know it's going to sell out and like jack up
the prices and it leaves the industry and you can
(17:09):
see it like you know on you stop hubs, like
you know, financials. They're they're so proud that they're like
you got all this inventory and they sell it for
lots of money, and it's like it sucks because they
don't have anything to do with the event. They don't
help invest into it, they don't invest into the artists,
they don't make the fan experience like awesome. And so
the for us is to let's just keep it within
(17:33):
this ecosystem and help build it out. So for us,
as it's a combination of you know, uy where this
is difficult, Like for example, there's no ticket to sell,
so you notice that when you buy a ticket it
only becomes active like just before the event, right, and
so you feel what are you selling? The second is
(17:55):
around you know, we've got these little bots which within
DICE that can identify someone who you know doesn't have
like a typical sort of fan behavior, and so we
make them, you know, if they want to transfer a
ticket or anything else, they have to get in touch
with a support person that DICE. And that's the human side.
(18:15):
We have things like you've got to have the persons,
I know, and it sounds weird, but just from our analysis,
you've got to have the if you want to send
someone a ticket, they've got to be in your phone book,
right yeah. And again it's just like would you put
a scalper's like phone number in your phone book? Maybe
probably not, And so it's like just it's like dumb
(18:37):
and smart tech to help, like you stop it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, like that dumb and smart deck.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's like the like a camera in
a store that doesn't work or whatever else, right right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And obviously you know, dynamic pricing is a big reason
also why you started DICE. Just want to get rid
of those fees. Yeah, tell me a bit about like
how you're sort of able to do that, and and
just watching from afar, obviously there's been several sort of
scandals I guess you could call them. We had Taylor Swift,
you know, oasis like these prices just getting jacked up,
(19:11):
and yeah, tell me how you're able to prevent that.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
On days there's a the same to lib quote, which
is ethics changes laws, not the other way around. And
I think that just because it's in our DNA, it
just happens, like there's ian I have faith in people,
and I have faith and artists. And there are artists
who you know, probably only have one tour in them.
(19:36):
You know, they might have been you know, become famous
online or on TV or something like that, and I've
got one tour, so they want to maximize their revenue.
Fair play to them if they want to use secondary right,
it's not right for Dice anyway. But for the large
majority of artists who are building like careers, I do
think that the people are very emotional about music, which
(20:01):
is why these become like really good headlines, like that
artist might have created a song that got you through
a bad time or a good time, or you know,
something a connection with somebody or whatever it is. And
if you found out that the artist said like deliberately
instead of you jacked up the prices or did these things.
It's it's like a betrayal.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It hurts.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, and so and so I guess that going back
into like how we help artist, it does. We've never
had an artist like approaches to do anything like that.
And maybe it's just because they just know that Dice
just isn't that world.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, for sure, don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
We'll be right back with more from Phil Hutchin, the
CEO of Dice. And we're back with more of my
conversation with Phil Hutchin, the CEO of Dice.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I know that you celebrated your tenth anniversary this year. Correct,
tell me a bit. I guess you know how the
platform has grown in these past ten years, Like what
are some ways in which you've seen it change? And
then where are you like looking to go next?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Cool? So, yeah, I think we're all in denial that
we're out ten years. It kind of feels like we
have started yesterday and we still have so so much
to do. But the other side is like it is awesome,
like how how big Dice got in the US, for example,
and like in New York it's cool being able to
go around and see I think we've got just over
(21:31):
a million people a month used Dice in New York.
You've got one point three million in London. But then
you're like Paris. But like it's this connection like sort
of around and so yeah, we I'm not very nostalgia,
but at the same time, you know, it is cool,
like it has like broken through to the other side.
Because we said at the start, there weren't many people
(21:54):
in day one thinking that we would last this long
or that you know, we can actually you know, take
on the incumbents or whatever else. But what this happens
that has created space, and you know, I think that
there is so much more room to grow. I think
the localization of music is not going to reverse. So
(22:15):
like for example, you know artists you know from Africa
or South America and Asia and then India. Like I
think those scenes are only going to get bigger and
bigger and bigger. And so you know, when we think
about expansion, we're thinking about sort of those territories for sure.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
How many US cities is Dice active in right now?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, so we're in I think fourteen fifteen. I'm just
kind of like going deeper like into those existing cities
over the short period and then sort of widening it
a little bit into the new year. But then also
we launched in Canada and so yeah, that's something that
is going super well. But yeah, it it's the thing
(23:00):
where you and the one side you want to go crazy,
but it's also like making sure that it's that we
can deliver, like the promise to Fats, so Dice doesn't work.
It would just have one venue in the city, like
we've got to have, right, You've got to have high
concentration because you know, the big difference between Dice and
(23:21):
anybody else is that we create a lot of demand.
You know, the we our thing to venues and artists
is like cool, your marketing spend will plummet once you're
on Dice. But if you only got one venue in
the city, then we don't really have that because you've
got that one thing. So that's why when you go
to a Dice city, there's usually lots of events.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
It's got to be like a scene.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, it's got to be a scene. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And you know, I found that Dice particularly appeals to
young people, Like it's I think it's in the app design,
it's in the social media aspect. I guess how do
how do you ensure that through the marketing as well
of that?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
First of all, because we were very data oriented companies
that the you know, the next generation and going out
as much as anyone else. So nothing has really changed
in terms of because you read all these art I
saw it today this morning in the Guardian talking about
people not going out anymore, like so, who are all
(24:20):
these people going at every night of the week. Why
is it that there's waiting this for all of these
events because they're all sold out. So yeah, first of all,
everyone is going out as much as they did, and
I think maybe it's just an aging that people think
that they don't. I think they also been ten years old.
At Dice, we're seeing people who maybe started in the
(24:40):
early twenties like still using dice and so the you know,
we've seen a little bit of an increase on that
as well, like people sort of you know going out
and keep going out on Dice. But it is also
like missle to say that Dice is just for like
(25:02):
a younger demographic. It's a majority, sure, yeah, but we
have lots of shows that hasn't an older audience. It
was funny like, yeah, ten years ago, would anyone damnload
an app to go to an event was like a thing, right,
you know. We did Adele at Wembley Stadium and they're like, oh,
how is the older fans going to use the phone?
(25:24):
I'm like, you're literally texting me on your phone about this,
Like people use their phones all the time, like it's
so easy to use. So it's kind of just that thing.
So I felt that that thing has gone away now,
but it's it's making it really easy for everyone.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, for sure, you spoke to President Biden recently about
you know, dynamic pricing, the ticket marketplace as all of that.
Tell me a bit about meeting. Meeting mister Biden. You
know what was that Like, what did that mean to
you to be able to have that conversation?
Speaker 3 (25:58):
It was it was just normal, normal day.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
What are you doing on Wednesday? Okay? Yeah, but there
are some funny stories about trying to get into the
country because I was actually stopped really yeah, so I
got to the security and they, yeah, they are super friendly,
but they were like, oh, while you're in a wre
you coming to the US, I have meetings. Where are
(26:24):
your meetings? It's at the White House. Who are you
meeting at the White House? I meeting the President and
they're like, okay, come with me. And it sent me
to the interrogation because it just like like it comes
over on like a twelve dollars est divisa, like meeting
the president. So yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, it was funny.
And so it's funny. It's actually funny at the time
(26:45):
because I'm like, this is going to be a good
story one day for a podcast.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, and here we are.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Here we are. But it was coming back on the
plane because the whole thing was so surreal. It was
only when it hit me, like why I was there
like the only non American, Like I'm around the table.
I mean we spoke to the present of like forty
minutes after the press conference as well, and it was
something that is super passionate about, you know, the the
(27:11):
Drunk Fees Act. And I realized that because this has
always been our DNA, because we've always been into upfront
pricing because it make it really easy. My job is
to reassure the others that it's actually a really good
business model. Like I don't understand why there's all these
I just I still don't understand like why people keep
(27:32):
adding all these things and everything else, Like it just
feels like you just lose consumer trust and so and
as it was I mean Airbnb with that, I mean yeah,
and it's kind of like that. You know, you go
there and you're like, oh cool, it's like two hundred
dollars a night, and then you get to the end
it's like it's crazy fees. And I think that the
more transparent everyone is, the better behavior it is on
all sites, you know, in the terms of the Airbnb
(27:57):
of like that price is up front, you know, those
cleaning fees are like, you know, they can't get away
with them, and so it's just good behavior. And I
think that the conversation was very real. I think, you know,
as a result of that and many other things that
that actor has come into play, I feel like companies
(28:17):
are sort of trending to be in more up from
about how much something is.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I mean obviously there was an
election recently, and do you think like that that will
change it all. Are you still hopeful for the future
of you know, ticketing in the US or you know,
do you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, I think it's just still the same consumers, you know,
whether whoever they vote for. They don't want to get
ripped off and they don't want to be exploited and
they don't want to be paying like unnecessary fees, and
so I think that that train has to I think
(29:00):
social media has a big part to play there. You know,
if you think about when this happens now fans get
really angry and go back to my story at the beginning,
like why did we set this up? The artist finds
out straight away, the artist calls the manager, the manager
calls the agent, the agent calls the promoter. So it's
kind of like it's a thing now. And so I
think that the more that fans, you know, make a
(29:22):
big deal out of it, the faster things will change.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
For sure. I mean why do you think that, like
the Taylor, Swifts and Oasis of the world are still
using ticket.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Aster Yeah, because they earned the rights of the venue.
Yeah okay, yeah, yeah yeah, and they have to so yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I mean looking forward, like, how do you hope to
you know, sort of work with those venues you can
work with those artists, Like, what what is the path
forward there to? I guess make things more affordable like everyone.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
That's good because we get asked a lot like would
you want to do you know, why do you do
in the Taylor Swift shows? But she doesn't really need us,
like because it's going to sell it anyway, right, you
know what I mean? So our you know, the superpower
of Dice is you know, getting is kind of more
of the mid market so venues between like two hundred
and like twelve thousand, and our thing is to you know,
(30:15):
going back into that Dell concert, like the fans that
bought a ticket to that, they kind of use Dice
once or twice again. But like you're just talking about
yourself how you used it all the time. Ye Like
we've got fans and Dice who go to like two
hundred and fifty shows a year.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah probably mean.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yeah, yeah yeah probably you yeah. But there is like
you know, tens of thousands of fans like in London
who go out at least one hundred times a year
on Dice. And so for us as the I kind
of like this world. I like the idea of almost
like using a lot of the aspects that get people
to use social medium within Dice to get them to
(30:55):
go up more too, and that's why we want to
dig more into in this world where you know, think
I hear like people you know and CEOs talk about
learning as bi it. You generally think that DICE actually
helps people like meet other people, and so you know,
you can be very isolating, particularly in the big city.
So getting people out more is a is a cool
(31:15):
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I know. There's also a new marketplace that I think
launch this year where artists can sell experiences and merch
What makes that different from the traditional route and how
does that fit into the DICE ETOs.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
So we have a thesis around online and offline that
everything online is ubiquitous and often free, and you get
anything you want, but a live event is scats and
it only happens once. And so when we're looking at
products and working with artists, we're talking about things that
you can only get if you're attending the show. So
(31:52):
it's like dedicated products, not necessarily just merchandise. So for example,
we have some artists who will sign a set list,
take a photo of it, and you can sell that
through the app. Things that make it. Going back to
what I was saying earlier around anticipation, participation in memory
like something as a memory for us, it's like, can
(32:13):
we help artists create like a shirt that is just
for that one event? And so as a fan five
years later, you open your drawer and you're like, oh, look,
that's when you know I've played in London and it's
like yeah, and it kind of brings it back and
it's cool and it's physical and you know it. And
so for us, as you know, we've got you hear
(32:37):
this word super fan banded around quite a lot. But
do think that somebod who pays money to go see
an artists perform is really like a super fan. And
so if the artist is able to sell directly to
that super fan, and that super fan appreciates that that
merch or product is like unique to that show, then
it's good for everyone.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
That definitely was something that we saw during the pandemic.
I think pre pandemic, particularly bands used to think that
it wasn't you know, cool to like work with brands
or anything else and then also ask fans for money.
And then during the pandemic, because of all the live
streaming and everything else and ticulate live streams that whether
it's unconscious or not that fans realize that artists need
(33:23):
to make money to keep going. And so for us
with the artists commerce and all the cash going to
the artists is like you read a lot of stories
about how streaming is reducing, you know, the income that
that artists are getting. Well, yeah, here's a way to
like help artists generate enough money to put out more
great songs for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And it's also become so much harder for artists to tour,
specifically that like middle market. I think we're seeing a
lot of artists speaking out saying, hey, I can't go
on tour this year, like you know, and I think
that that's something that is obviously very sad and something
that they need to need to sort of effect. But
you know, how can Dice help with that?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, well that's actually was sort of alluding to Earliot.
So if any artists are listening to this, like get
in touch, Like what where we can help is figure
out where you should play and where you shouldn't play, right,
And quite often you might go to the agent and
they're like, Okay, here's fifteen shows and we're not really
thinking about it. And so I think that artists can
(34:27):
use data to really like think about things. And it's
around pricing as well. To be honest, we hear a
lot about how prices are expensive, but there's a lot
of shows that are too cheap, you know, Like you've
got these artist whore spending so much money on the
production and everything else, and the ticket you know, is
like twenty pounds. Yeah, and you're like, okay, that's that's
(34:48):
nice that you're doing that. But if you charge like
twenty six find's going to be okay about it. You've
got plenty of massive weight lists, but it's it's helping
them feel okay about that. And then there's some shows
that they're charging way too much. So again like you know,
you need to reduce this. If you really wanted to
like pack this out, the price should be this instead.
(35:12):
And so yeah, we can help like you know, figure
out like what the sweet spot is because you really
just want to get as many people into the show
as possible. And then that kind of like benefits everyone
as opposed to you know, maybe you're pricing incorrectly or
playing in the wrong city or anything else. And so yeah,
I do think that we can help those artists who
(35:35):
kind of struggle across the board to make money to
be more targeted. Yeah, for sure. Very cool.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Looking back in the past decade, what would you say
has been like your proudest moment or like your favorite
show the past ten years that you've been a part of.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah. So, I mean it's only because I said not
very nostalgic. So I think the Cure, like a few
weeks ago, the Cure.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah. So they played one show in twenty twenty four,
no pressure, like and and we did all of the
tickets in a three thousand capacity venue and uh, you know,
one hundred thousand people like in the first second trying
to get tickets.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, I lost out on that one. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, to get wead I see someone got wait list
like some really yeah yeah, they posted it there. Yeah,
and it just went like two minutes, it's gone, everything's done.
And I think that after the experience of like some
big acts, like you've taken nine hours to get a
ticket to have that done, and then going on to
(36:40):
Reddit and seen like fans like being bombed out that
they didn't get a ticket, but kind of like cool
that it's sort of yeah, it just worked. And so
that was, you know, a pretty big moment particularly because
you know, Robert Smith Cure was talking about ticketing so
much and everything else, and for that from end to end,
no scalping, tickets went at the right price, everyone got
(37:02):
in amazing atmosphere. You say it was good.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I thought Robert was a very happy man.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah, or maybe not because we like being sad. Yeah,
like that's true.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. I mean when you look forward
to the next ten years of Dice, so what are
some of those broad goals that you have. How do
you help to see the company grow while still maintaining
you know what we talked about with this sort of
like middle market area and really catering to the fans.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
First of all, is the geographic expansion, like just going
everywhere and having Dice in all the top cities. Second,
is the your community aspect, the idea that you know,
more and more fans getting together. You know, we live
in such a divisive word world and different opinions, and
you know this tournament presidency and everything else, but music
(37:55):
is like a really cool unifier and getting people chatting
to each other and everything else. I think it's it's good.
And then the commerce aspect, really helping artists to tour
effectively being able to go everywhere that they're like because
I honestly believe this is the best time in history
(38:15):
to be in music. I think if you think about
like every everyone thinks that the last year was better
or the last generation was better. But now you can
put out a song and that song can go viral, like,
you know, almost instantly, and also you know, everyone around
the world can hear that song instantly. And then from
(38:38):
a touring perspective, it's kind of I really love seeing
you know, Southeast Asian artists like coming on DICE because
they just book the shows directly, they just book then
they just do it and they sell out and they
do these things and they've got the merchant and they
do and I do think that's a blueprint for you know,
(39:00):
for the future where you know, you know, artists can
feel confident that they can go to any country in
the world and as long as there's an audience so
that they can do something really great.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Thanks for listening to Strictly Business And if you want
to know more about DICE or see what kind of
cool shows they're throwing in your city, download the DICE app.
In the meantime, please leave US, a review at Apple
podcasts at Amazon Music, and come back next week for
another episode.
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Elie Schaeffer, Variety's London news editor, and this marks my
first full Strictly Business episode, which is very exciting. This
week I sat down with Phil Hutcheon, the CEO of Dice,
a London based ticketing software company that's taking the market
(00:28):
by storm with its artist and fan forward mission. After
spending a decade in the music industry, Hutchin founded the
company in twenty fourteen with the aim of making live
events more accessible by taking a stance against scalping and
dynamic pricing. As it celebrates its tenth anniversary, Dice has
expanded to over a dozen US cities and also recently
launched in Canada, but has kept a strong local focus.
(00:51):
As you will hear on the episode, I use Dice
probably every week here in London, not just for concerts,
but for club nights, comedy shows and more. Keep on
starting to hear more about how Dice is revolutionizing the
ticketing industry by delivering a fan friendly experience, helping artists
book the right that news and making it easier to
go out than ever. Plus, Phil offers his thoughts on
the recent Taylor Swift at Oasis ticketing tobacles and why
(01:15):
being part of the middle.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Market is DICE's superpower.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
And that's all coming up after this break, and we're
back with Phil Hutchins, CEO of Dice.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Tell me a bit about how Dice started. Give me
the origin story.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Okay, cool. So, so my background was in product contech
and then I went into the music industry and not
really knowing anyone in the music industry, and it was
during that time when we were looking after artists who
were performing, particularly in North America, and we do deals
with that shows and we're like, cool, it's let's do it.
(02:00):
And it's like thirty dollars a ticket, and then I
would go and sale and it was like fifty and
I'm like, hang on a minute, why is it fifty
when we just did it for thirty And so they
were like, oh, that's just the fees, and and then
it'd sell out and then the tickets were going for
hundreds of dollars and then the fans were getting really upset,
and I was just like, how is this like even possible?
(02:22):
So I tried all the different ticketing companies to see
what was going on, but everyone was kind of just
doing the same thing. And so the I figured that
you're bringing like my past experience plus music to like,
well if no one else has got to solve this,
and solving it is like scalping, you know, upfront pricing
(02:42):
your discovery. How do you find things all that kind
of stuff and actually build something for fans, then I
guess that we have to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, absolutely, And starting out, what was the team like,
so it was you and then how do you sort
of build this team and actually get it to to
the point where you could live with it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
So we we actually, uh, it was a team, like
it was super small, so you know, Mio was our
CTEO engineer everything like this journal, you know, a lot
of the actual development designers, a couple of designers and
a couple of people who are new from from music.
It was small and we actually, you know, because everyone
(03:22):
said that it's not going to work. Everyone said that
on you know, it's like a futile thing to do.
And also like would people trust like a new product
that came to the market, And so we actually had
a fake brand called Tisie for like a couple of months,
which uh just you know, pulling in favors from you know,
(03:43):
artists and stuff like, hey, can media tickets just to
scene whether or not a fan would go to something
that is new and buy a ticket on it, and
they did. I'm like, okay, that's that's kind of cool.
And then we pulled in more favors from the music
industry to get sort of bigger shows on And yeah,
I think that one thing that I still trying to
(04:03):
remind people today is that online audiences and like physical audiences,
like the number is like it's crazy for your brain
to understand. So for example, if you have like an
online audience or your media company you have like ten
thousand views, you're like, eh, that's okay. But actually, if
you're in a space when you have ten thousand people,
(04:24):
there's actually a lot of people. And so our first
show after a month, we had like ten thousand people
and we sold ten thousand tickets and all high fiving,
and then we got there and it was like a
team of six and we're like, how are we going
to get all these people in? And so it was Yeah,
So it's kind of I think that a lot of naivety.
None of us had any ticketing experience, to be honest, Like,
(04:47):
before all this, I didn't even care about ticketing, But
then the more that we looked into it, and like
how important is in terms of that relationship for the
between the fan and the artist and getting people in
and making a fun and everything else. Like, yeah, we
just wanted to do a good job for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And did it start in London?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Okay, yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
What was I guess special about London that sort of
fueled this idea? Do you feel like you could have
started it anywhere else or do you think London was
helpful in this That's.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
A really good question because it's I actually think that
starting in London gave us a huge advantage. It's so
competitive in London, and it really is like you got
to like be so much better than everyone else. And
actually one of our early investors really pushed me not
(05:38):
to expand outside of London until we got like product
market fit. So it was a time when you know,
because we're you know, a city based platform, that we
saw all these other companies like launching everywhere and raising
tons of money and we were just in London and
I was like, surely we've got to go and here
(06:00):
was like not to stay here, just make sure that
all of the metrics are right, and we did, and
all those other companies are kind of gone. But I
think that what happened was that as soon as we
left London, we had like a fully formed product and
we knew exactly know how to do it. And I
guess that maybe there's like a parallel with Spotify starting
(06:21):
in Sweden, you know, really sort of getting it right
and then going out. But for sure, if we started
it in America, like we would have been killed like
pretty early on. So yeah, there is also like a
like an industry advantage I think of being in London.
A lot of the agents are here, a lot of
artists love playing in London, so you know, there's a
(06:41):
lot of shows. I should also say, because of my
naivet tickening and life and everything else, I really thought
that we would have like two hundred shows in London.
That's about it. A little didn't note Like I think
now we've got like a hundred at night. Like it's
there's so much going on. And one of the things
up being a platform is quite often we get asked,
(07:04):
like you know, you're in conversation with an artist or
a manager and let's oh, ticket sales to going down
or tools. But because we see everything always sly. Every
month is like more and more people going out and
shows selling out and everything else. So it's yeah, it's
it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I think also London has such a unique sort of
music culture and that there's pub culture, right, and so
I think the biggest thing for me coming from LA
was being able to go to any given pub on
a Tuesday night and there's a band playing in the
back and they're amazing. Yeah, you know, and it feels
it feels much more organic maybe than other cities. There's
(07:42):
much more. It feels like to me, there's much more
of this like underground, and I think like when I
started buying tickets on dice, that's like what I was,
you know, buying tickets to or these like little shows
at these little little pubs that you know, I think
maybe people wouldn't have heard of, but you sort of
stumble upon them. More is just like oh, we want
to go to this bar, we want to go to
this pub, and like, let's buy a ticket to this.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, And that's actually my favorite show is like a tiny, small,
free show, and I like seeing someone starting out and
it's super exciting. And that's actually one of the things
that we wanted to help with is discovery because there's
so much music and so the you know, in the
olden days, you'd have like listings, you know, in like
(08:27):
free newspapers in the city, and so with Dice was
like that investment into our discovery and the algorithms. I
mean it took us three and a half years to
get that working like properly because we only use our
own data. We're very pro privacy and trying to like
bring that in. But you know, getting people excited about
seeing something new, it's like the biggest thrill, Like you know,
(08:50):
seeing people's comments never heard of this artist, and like yeah,
it blows their minds.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I mean I know I get my notification.
I think it's every Thursday. Can you tell that you
dice all the time, And it's like, you know, bands
that you might might like, and like, I know, me
and my friends we literally use that. We scroll on Dice,
we go check out our favorite venues, yeah, and see
who's playing. And also you know, linking it with Spotify.
I think it's just like so smart because I never
(09:16):
miss a show of one of my favorite artists.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
It's interesting that so we use Spotify to get like
a warm sort of introduction, so that if you're new
to Dice, you Spotify, you're like, Okay, what are you
listening to? But it's not as tight a correlation between
your listening and what you want to go to as
you might think. You might listen to techno all day,
but you don't want to go to a club, or
(09:40):
you might be listening to sing the songwriters all day
or our classical music or whatever else, right, and like
pulling those things up, and then also like you might
be listening to something, but your favorite band is something
that you listen to ten years ago, and so it's like,
so what we have is look alikes, and so we're
able to kind of pull the data from other fans
and Dice to give you, you know what, more of
(10:01):
like the life recommendations. But it's cool, that's news shows Thursday.
So that was trying to create like data products within
Dice that make it easy for people to figure out
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Absolutely yeah, I mean, I think that's such an interesting
part of Dice that makes it stand out is like
the community aspect as well. It's sort of a social
media platform, which we've seen also with Spotify. You know,
one of my favorite things to do is see what
my friends are listening to. And on Dice you were
able to connect with your friends and share tickets and
share shows. Tell me a bit about you know why
that was so important to you know DICE's I guess core, Yeah,
(10:37):
because it's.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Like the first principle is like, you know why we
did Dice is the you know, why is it that
one of the best experiences that you can go to,
maybe something that you remember forever, starts off in such
a crappy like situation when you're buying a ticket and
so like fixing that make it like really exciting at
(10:57):
the beginning. But so we see the world in three stages.
So the first is the anticipation to the event, which
is not just like an event but I hold anything else.
Anticipation is like super important. Then it's the participation actually
been at the event, and then like the memory that
you have afterwards. And so for us like all these
things have seen your friends. I mean, fomo is a
(11:18):
pretty big thing on Dice. When you see your friends
go into something, right, and so you're like, I probably
should go. But that's also something that we're going to
be dialing up a lot in twenty twenty five. I see,
you know, the idea of I think people are moving
away from like you know, well, I want to have
something different than to sort of large scale sort of
(11:38):
social media. And actually, you know, you do have a
lot of commonality when you go see an artist or
a show or a club night or anything else, and
allow people to interact more on dice around that and
really get into more around community. And then with that
with community, allowing artists to participate in that as well
(11:58):
and getting them to chat.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah. So yeah, tell me a bit about you know,
the artist's aspect of things and how you work with
artists to make the experience unique.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
So first of all, it's like it's a just taking
that paid away from them where they don't have, you know,
articles about how they're exploiting fans, so that these guys
it's gone, Yeah, there's no anything there. So like it's
it's like a safe place for them to do it.
I think also, you know, working with the venues and
the promoters is helping them figure out like how big
(12:28):
the show should be. You know, it's not again, it's
not like a one for one in terms of you
sell out a show and the natural instinct, okay, we
need to do a bigger show. Sometimes everyone who wants
to see you is seeing you at that show and
like yeah, So we're able to help them like figure out,
is there really demand to go bigger or do you
(12:49):
need to like be out of the city for a
while because a live event is scarce. And also like
there's a thing where you assume that's someone who went
to something, we'll just want to keep going back again,
but actually they want to go to lots of things,
and so it's trying to help artists to avoid like
those traps but also see the opportunities because on the
(13:11):
other side, sometimes we'll get, for example, some Korean acts
will just come in and we've never heard of them,
and they'll play like a three thousand capacity venue and
no one has any idea like how big it's going
to be, and then we've got like twenty thousand people
on the wait list. Wow, And so from that we're
able to help them like generate, like you know, do
(13:33):
more shows or do matinees or whatever else like from that,
but help them also like use that data to go
to other cities as well.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Absolutely, And tell me a bit about the waiting list aspect,
because that's one of my favorite, I guess aspects of DICE.
Like I've been able to get tickets to shows that
I've like, I've think pretty much almost every show that
I put myself on the waiting list to like because
you have that notification and you get you know, it
reserves those tickets for you. So as long as you're
able to like log on and get the tickets, you're golden.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, tell me a bit about developing that and you
know why it's important to DICE's mission.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, because the so life happens the idea that you
buy tickets to an event but you can't make it,
and it's like two things. One is that you know,
the if the show doesn't sell out, we don't activate
the weightlist, and that's just you know, this is an
aside thing that that's because that the artists and the
promoter and everyone else has spent so much money in
(14:30):
putting on that event. If everyone was able to get
a refund, then those events just wouldn't happen. They just can't.
But if it's sold out, and this is the thing
that people are always shocked about. So when we know
that when someone gets a ticket on a waitlist and Dice,
that's it, they're locked into Dice forever because it is
like such a mind blowing experience because something is sold
out and you add yourself and you're like, yeah, sure
(14:52):
that's going to happen. And there's two behavioral points from
a fan. So what we see is that either fans
return their ticket it's almost immediately after buying them because
they realize they have a conflict. So they've bought four
tickets to something and they're like, I'll go go to
wedding or whatever it is. Or it's just like a
week or so before the show and they would turn
(15:14):
like one or two of their tickets because someone's dropped out.
And it is annoying, Like when if your friend has
dropped out.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Last week and I didn't buy it on Dice, so
I had to like sell it on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It was a whole thing. Yeah, that's right. And to
just be able to just do that and have that
happy sort of fan path. What we didn't realize is
like how beneficial waiting list is for venues because you
when we spoke to venues when they have like you know,
the secondary switched on, you have lots of speculators buying
(15:49):
tickets and a lot of that inventory gets on sold,
like those tickets get unsold, and so you we found
out that on average a venue only gets to like
eighty five percent capacity for a sold at show, but
if you got weightless, it's like nine to nine percent.
And so for us, it's like we we do be
(16:09):
a math where we're like, Okay, there's actually people who
come to the venue, like look how much money they're
going to spend at the venue. But it's like trying
to you know, it's kind of we love the fact
that you're creating this amazing thing for a fan and
it's actually benefiting everyone because you know that money's getting
reinvested into the industry.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Absolutely and obviously it helps a lot with you know,
this phenomenon we've seen just grow more and more recently,
which is the scalping situation. Yeah yeah, I mean, tell
me a bit about combating that. And you know, I mean,
if correct me if I'm wrong, But I feel like
dice is like you can't really scalp on dice. No.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, So it's the thing that was super important to
us that the it was to protect fans and artists
from you know, the institutional like you know resellers who
are just buying stuff not because they're fans, because they
know it's going to sell out and like jack up
the prices and it leaves the industry and you can
(17:09):
see it like you know on you stop hubs, like
you know, financials. They're they're so proud that they're like
you got all this inventory and they sell it for
lots of money, and it's like it sucks because they
don't have anything to do with the event. They don't
help invest into it, they don't invest into the artists,
they don't make the fan experience like awesome. And so
the for us is to let's just keep it within
(17:33):
this ecosystem and help build it out. So for us,
as it's a combination of you know, uy where this
is difficult, Like for example, there's no ticket to sell,
so you notice that when you buy a ticket it
only becomes active like just before the event, right, and
so you feel what are you selling? The second is
(17:55):
around you know, we've got these little bots which within
DICE that can identify someone who you know doesn't have
like a typical sort of fan behavior, and so we
make them, you know, if they want to transfer a
ticket or anything else, they have to get in touch
with a support person that DICE. And that's the human side.
(18:15):
We have things like you've got to have the persons,
I know, and it sounds weird, but just from our analysis,
you've got to have the if you want to send
someone a ticket, they've got to be in your phone book,
right yeah. And again it's just like would you put
a scalper's like phone number in your phone book? Maybe
probably not, And so it's like just it's like dumb
(18:37):
and smart tech to help, like you stop it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, like that dumb and smart deck.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's like the like a camera in
a store that doesn't work or whatever else, right right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And obviously you know, dynamic pricing is a big reason
also why you started DICE. Just want to get rid
of those fees. Yeah, tell me a bit about like
how you're sort of able to do that, and and
just watching from afar, obviously there's been several sort of
scandals I guess you could call them. We had Taylor Swift,
you know, oasis like these prices just getting jacked up,
(19:11):
and yeah, tell me how you're able to prevent that.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
On days there's a the same to lib quote, which
is ethics changes laws, not the other way around. And
I think that just because it's in our DNA, it
just happens, like there's ian I have faith in people,
and I have faith and artists. And there are artists
who you know, probably only have one tour in them.
(19:36):
You know, they might have been you know, become famous
online or on TV or something like that, and I've
got one tour, so they want to maximize their revenue.
Fair play to them if they want to use secondary right,
it's not right for Dice anyway. But for the large
majority of artists who are building like careers, I do
think that the people are very emotional about music, which
(20:01):
is why these become like really good headlines, like that
artist might have created a song that got you through
a bad time or a good time, or you know,
something a connection with somebody or whatever it is. And
if you found out that the artist said like deliberately
instead of you jacked up the prices or did these things.
It's it's like a betrayal.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It hurts.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, and so and so I guess that going back
into like how we help artist, it does. We've never
had an artist like approaches to do anything like that.
And maybe it's just because they just know that Dice
just isn't that world.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, for sure, don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
We'll be right back with more from Phil Hutchin, the
CEO of Dice. And we're back with more of my
conversation with Phil Hutchin, the CEO of Dice.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I know that you celebrated your tenth anniversary this year. Correct,
tell me a bit. I guess you know how the
platform has grown in these past ten years, Like what
are some ways in which you've seen it change? And
then where are you like looking to go next?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Cool? So, yeah, I think we're all in denial that
we're out ten years. It kind of feels like we
have started yesterday and we still have so so much
to do. But the other side is like it is awesome,
like how how big Dice got in the US, for example,
and like in New York it's cool being able to
go around and see I think we've got just over
(21:31):
a million people a month used Dice in New York.
You've got one point three million in London. But then
you're like Paris. But like it's this connection like sort
of around and so yeah, we I'm not very nostalgia,
but at the same time, you know, it is cool,
like it has like broken through to the other side.
Because we said at the start, there weren't many people
(21:54):
in day one thinking that we would last this long
or that you know, we can actually you know, take
on the incumbents or whatever else. But what this happens
that has created space, and you know, I think that
there is so much more room to grow. I think
the localization of music is not going to reverse. So
(22:15):
like for example, you know artists you know from Africa
or South America and Asia and then India. Like I
think those scenes are only going to get bigger and
bigger and bigger. And so you know, when we think
about expansion, we're thinking about sort of those territories for sure.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
How many US cities is Dice active in right now?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, so we're in I think fourteen fifteen. I'm just
kind of like going deeper like into those existing cities
over the short period and then sort of widening it
a little bit into the new year. But then also
we launched in Canada and so yeah, that's something that
is going super well. But yeah, it it's the thing
(23:00):
where you and the one side you want to go crazy,
but it's also like making sure that it's that we
can deliver, like the promise to Fats, so Dice doesn't work.
It would just have one venue in the city, like
we've got to have, right, You've got to have high
concentration because you know, the big difference between Dice and
(23:21):
anybody else is that we create a lot of demand.
You know, the we our thing to venues and artists
is like cool, your marketing spend will plummet once you're
on Dice. But if you only got one venue in
the city, then we don't really have that because you've
got that one thing. So that's why when you go
to a Dice city, there's usually lots of events.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
It's got to be like a scene.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, it's got to be a scene. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And you know, I found that Dice particularly appeals to
young people, Like it's I think it's in the app design,
it's in the social media aspect. I guess how do
how do you ensure that through the marketing as well
of that?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
First of all, because we were very data oriented companies
that the you know, the next generation and going out
as much as anyone else. So nothing has really changed
in terms of because you read all these art I
saw it today this morning in the Guardian talking about
people not going out anymore, like so, who are all
(24:20):
these people going at every night of the week. Why
is it that there's waiting this for all of these
events because they're all sold out. So yeah, first of all,
everyone is going out as much as they did, and
I think maybe it's just an aging that people think
that they don't. I think they also been ten years old.
At Dice, we're seeing people who maybe started in the
(24:40):
early twenties like still using dice and so the you know,
we've seen a little bit of an increase on that
as well, like people sort of you know going out
and keep going out on Dice. But it is also
like missle to say that Dice is just for like
(25:02):
a younger demographic. It's a majority, sure, yeah, but we
have lots of shows that hasn't an older audience. It
was funny like, yeah, ten years ago, would anyone damnload
an app to go to an event was like a thing, right,
you know. We did Adele at Wembley Stadium and they're like, oh,
how is the older fans going to use the phone?
(25:24):
I'm like, you're literally texting me on your phone about this,
Like people use their phones all the time, like it's
so easy to use. So it's kind of just that thing.
So I felt that that thing has gone away now,
but it's it's making it really easy for everyone.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, for sure, you spoke to President Biden recently about
you know, dynamic pricing, the ticket marketplace as all of that.
Tell me a bit about meeting. Meeting mister Biden. You
know what was that Like, what did that mean to
you to be able to have that conversation?
Speaker 3 (25:58):
It was it was just normal, normal day.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
What are you doing on Wednesday? Okay? Yeah, but there
are some funny stories about trying to get into the
country because I was actually stopped really yeah, so I
got to the security and they, yeah, they are super friendly,
but they were like, oh, while you're in a wre
you coming to the US, I have meetings. Where are
(26:24):
your meetings? It's at the White House. Who are you
meeting at the White House? I meeting the President and
they're like, okay, come with me. And it sent me
to the interrogation because it just like like it comes
over on like a twelve dollars est divisa, like meeting
the president. So yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, it was funny.
And so it's funny. It's actually funny at the time
(26:45):
because I'm like, this is going to be a good
story one day for a podcast.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, and here we are.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Here we are. But it was coming back on the
plane because the whole thing was so surreal. It was
only when it hit me, like why I was there
like the only non American, Like I'm around the table.
I mean we spoke to the present of like forty
minutes after the press conference as well, and it was
something that is super passionate about, you know, the the
(27:11):
Drunk Fees Act. And I realized that because this has
always been our DNA, because we've always been into upfront
pricing because it make it really easy. My job is
to reassure the others that it's actually a really good
business model. Like I don't understand why there's all these
I just I still don't understand like why people keep
(27:32):
adding all these things and everything else, Like it just
feels like you just lose consumer trust and so and
as it was I mean Airbnb with that, I mean yeah,
and it's kind of like that. You know, you go
there and you're like, oh cool, it's like two hundred
dollars a night, and then you get to the end
it's like it's crazy fees. And I think that the
more transparent everyone is, the better behavior it is on
all sites, you know, in the terms of the Airbnb
(27:57):
of like that price is up front, you know, those
cleaning fees are like, you know, they can't get away
with them, and so it's just good behavior. And I
think that the conversation was very real. I think, you know,
as a result of that and many other things that
that actor has come into play, I feel like companies
(28:17):
are sort of trending to be in more up from
about how much something is.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I mean obviously there was an
election recently, and do you think like that that will
change it all. Are you still hopeful for the future
of you know, ticketing in the US or you know,
do you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, I think it's just still the same consumers, you know,
whether whoever they vote for. They don't want to get
ripped off and they don't want to be exploited and
they don't want to be paying like unnecessary fees, and
so I think that that train has to I think
(29:00):
social media has a big part to play there. You know,
if you think about when this happens now fans get
really angry and go back to my story at the beginning,
like why did we set this up? The artist finds
out straight away, the artist calls the manager, the manager
calls the agent, the agent calls the promoter. So it's
kind of like it's a thing now. And so I
think that the more that fans, you know, make a
(29:22):
big deal out of it, the faster things will change.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
For sure. I mean why do you think that, like
the Taylor, Swifts and Oasis of the world are still
using ticket.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Aster Yeah, because they earned the rights of the venue.
Yeah okay, yeah, yeah yeah, and they have to so yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I mean looking forward, like, how do you hope to
you know, sort of work with those venues you can
work with those artists, Like, what what is the path
forward there to? I guess make things more affordable like everyone.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
That's good because we get asked a lot like would
you want to do you know, why do you do
in the Taylor Swift shows? But she doesn't really need us,
like because it's going to sell it anyway, right, you
know what I mean? So our you know, the superpower
of Dice is you know, getting is kind of more
of the mid market so venues between like two hundred
and like twelve thousand, and our thing is to you know,
(30:15):
going back into that Dell concert, like the fans that
bought a ticket to that, they kind of use Dice
once or twice again. But like you're just talking about
yourself how you used it all the time. Ye Like
we've got fans and Dice who go to like two
hundred and fifty shows a year.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah probably mean.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yeah, yeah yeah probably you yeah. But there is like
you know, tens of thousands of fans like in London
who go out at least one hundred times a year
on Dice. And so for us as the I kind
of like this world. I like the idea of almost
like using a lot of the aspects that get people
to use social medium within Dice to get them to
(30:55):
go up more too, and that's why we want to
dig more into in this world where you know, think
I hear like people you know and CEOs talk about
learning as bi it. You generally think that DICE actually
helps people like meet other people, and so you know,
you can be very isolating, particularly in the big city.
So getting people out more is a is a cool
(31:15):
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I know. There's also a new marketplace that I think
launch this year where artists can sell experiences and merch
What makes that different from the traditional route and how
does that fit into the DICE ETOs.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
So we have a thesis around online and offline that
everything online is ubiquitous and often free, and you get
anything you want, but a live event is scats and
it only happens once. And so when we're looking at
products and working with artists, we're talking about things that
you can only get if you're attending the show. So
(31:52):
it's like dedicated products, not necessarily just merchandise. So for example,
we have some artists who will sign a set list,
take a photo of it, and you can sell that
through the app. Things that make it. Going back to
what I was saying earlier around anticipation, participation in memory
like something as a memory for us, it's like, can
(32:13):
we help artists create like a shirt that is just
for that one event? And so as a fan five
years later, you open your drawer and you're like, oh, look,
that's when you know I've played in London and it's
like yeah, and it kind of brings it back and
it's cool and it's physical and you know it. And
so for us, as you know, we've got you hear
(32:37):
this word super fan banded around quite a lot. But
do think that somebod who pays money to go see
an artists perform is really like a super fan. And
so if the artist is able to sell directly to
that super fan, and that super fan appreciates that that
merch or product is like unique to that show, then
it's good for everyone.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
That definitely was something that we saw during the pandemic.
I think pre pandemic, particularly bands used to think that
it wasn't you know, cool to like work with brands
or anything else and then also ask fans for money.
And then during the pandemic, because of all the live
streaming and everything else and ticulate live streams that whether
it's unconscious or not that fans realize that artists need
(33:23):
to make money to keep going. And so for us
with the artists commerce and all the cash going to
the artists is like you read a lot of stories
about how streaming is reducing, you know, the income that
that artists are getting. Well, yeah, here's a way to
like help artists generate enough money to put out more
great songs for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And it's also become so much harder for artists to tour,
specifically that like middle market. I think we're seeing a
lot of artists speaking out saying, hey, I can't go
on tour this year, like you know, and I think
that that's something that is obviously very sad and something
that they need to need to sort of effect. But
you know, how can Dice help with that?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, well that's actually was sort of alluding to Earliot.
So if any artists are listening to this, like get
in touch, Like what where we can help is figure
out where you should play and where you shouldn't play, right,
And quite often you might go to the agent and
they're like, Okay, here's fifteen shows and we're not really
thinking about it. And so I think that artists can
(34:27):
use data to really like think about things. And it's
around pricing as well. To be honest, we hear a
lot about how prices are expensive, but there's a lot
of shows that are too cheap, you know, Like you've
got these artist whore spending so much money on the
production and everything else, and the ticket you know, is
like twenty pounds. Yeah, and you're like, okay, that's that's
(34:48):
nice that you're doing that. But if you charge like
twenty six find's going to be okay about it. You've
got plenty of massive weight lists, but it's it's helping
them feel okay about that. And then there's some shows
that they're charging way too much. So again like you know,
you need to reduce this. If you really wanted to
like pack this out, the price should be this instead.
(35:12):
And so yeah, we can help like you know, figure
out like what the sweet spot is because you really
just want to get as many people into the show
as possible. And then that kind of like benefits everyone
as opposed to you know, maybe you're pricing incorrectly or
playing in the wrong city or anything else. And so yeah,
I do think that we can help those artists who
(35:35):
kind of struggle across the board to make money to
be more targeted. Yeah, for sure. Very cool.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Looking back in the past decade, what would you say
has been like your proudest moment or like your favorite
show the past ten years that you've been a part of.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah. So, I mean it's only because I said not
very nostalgic. So I think the Cure, like a few
weeks ago, the Cure.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah. So they played one show in twenty twenty four,
no pressure, like and and we did all of the
tickets in a three thousand capacity venue and uh, you know,
one hundred thousand people like in the first second trying
to get tickets.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, I lost out on that one. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, to get wead I see someone got wait list
like some really yeah yeah, they posted it there. Yeah,
and it just went like two minutes, it's gone, everything's done.
And I think that after the experience of like some
big acts, like you've taken nine hours to get a
ticket to have that done, and then going on to
(36:40):
Reddit and seen like fans like being bombed out that
they didn't get a ticket, but kind of like cool
that it's sort of yeah, it just worked. And so
that was, you know, a pretty big moment particularly because
you know, Robert Smith Cure was talking about ticketing so
much and everything else, and for that from end to end,
no scalping, tickets went at the right price, everyone got
(37:02):
in amazing atmosphere. You say it was good.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I thought Robert was a very happy man.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah, or maybe not because we like being sad. Yeah,
like that's true.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. I mean when you look forward
to the next ten years of Dice, so what are
some of those broad goals that you have. How do
you help to see the company grow while still maintaining
you know what we talked about with this sort of
like middle market area and really catering to the fans.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
First of all, is the geographic expansion, like just going
everywhere and having Dice in all the top cities. Second,
is the your community aspect, the idea that you know,
more and more fans getting together. You know, we live
in such a divisive word world and different opinions, and
you know this tournament presidency and everything else, but music
(37:55):
is like a really cool unifier and getting people chatting
to each other and everything else. I think it's it's good.
And then the commerce aspect, really helping artists to tour
effectively being able to go everywhere that they're like because
I honestly believe this is the best time in history
(38:15):
to be in music. I think if you think about
like every everyone thinks that the last year was better
or the last generation was better. But now you can
put out a song and that song can go viral, like,
you know, almost instantly, and also you know, everyone around
the world can hear that song instantly. And then from
(38:38):
a touring perspective, it's kind of I really love seeing
you know, Southeast Asian artists like coming on DICE because
they just book the shows directly, they just book then
they just do it and they sell out and they
do these things and they've got the merchant and they
do and I do think that's a blueprint for you know,
(39:00):
for the future where you know, you know, artists can
feel confident that they can go to any country in
the world and as long as there's an audience so
that they can do something really great.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Thanks for listening to Strictly Business And if you want
to know more about DICE or see what kind of
cool shows they're throwing in your city, download the DICE app.
In the meantime, please leave US, a review at Apple
podcasts at Amazon Music, and come back next week for
another episode.
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