December 7, 2022 • 35 mins
Jim Gosnell and Jim Osborne, CEO and president of APA, discuss the dramatic changes that have swept across the content business and Hollywood’s creative community. The pair discuss their bid to become the strongest mid-sized player after the Big Three agencies (CAA, WME and UTA) as APA heads into its 60th anniversary year in 2023. The “Jims,” as they’re known, also get candid about the marketplace for talent and their experience dealing with Justice Department lawyers probing the merger of CAA and ICM Partners.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Right Today. My
guests are the two top leaders of Talent Agency A
p A. Jim Gosnell is CEO and Jim Osborne as President.
(00:28):
The Gym's as they're known at the agency, are leading
the company into its sixtieth year in three with big ambition.
A p A has added fifteen agents and counting to
its ranks. Amid all the disruption across the ten percentury business,
most specifically the shakeout from CIA's acquisition of I c
(00:49):
M Partners. With w E, CIA and U t A
now firmly entrenched as Hollywood's Big three, A p A
sees a moment to grow to become the full service
alternative for working Hollywood. The big swing for the coming
year is a far cry from where they were in
the fall, when the business was shut down and the
(01:11):
outlook was gloomy. Agencies at that time were already reeling
from the battle over packaging with the Writer's Guild of America,
but investor Ron Burkel of U KAIPA companies came into
the picture for a PA around that time. He's now
given them the financial foundation to go for it. Because
Nell and Osborne are candid about where they see opportunity
(01:33):
for a p A. They also dishebit about their vantage
point on the Justice Department's probe of the agency business
as part of the CIA I c M review. That's
all coming up after the break. Streaming has become the
new TV today. Free ad supported streaming TV otherwise known
(01:55):
as FAST, has opened up new revenue streams for platforms
advertised there's and content owners partner with Amagi, a global
leader in fast to reach two hundred million plus CTV households,
more than one hundred platforms, over seven hundred content brands,
and access fifty billion plus AD opportunities. So make a
(02:18):
fast move. Visit Amagi dot com today and we're back
with more from a p A leaders Jim Gosnell and
Jim Osborne. But I'd love to just start throwing it
out to both of you. What do you see on
the horizon? What gave you the encouragement to go after
(02:40):
bringing in people from the consolidation of CIA and I
see them earlier this year a lot of good people
were on the market, and a lot of them have
come to a p A well. I think you know,
first of all, if we were all sitting around to
three years ago and I said that is going to
buy I c M, everybody would have said, you're out
of your mind. That's not going to have been all
(03:01):
of that. What we saw this tremendous opportunity and we
weren't going to let opportunity go by without striking. And
what basically happened is we knew a lot of the
agents that we brought in, we weren't sure that they
were going to be making the journey to see a
whether they wanted to or didn't want to, or weren't
(03:21):
going to be invited. However they did that. But no
matter what, we decided to really take advantage of that
situation in a way that I don't think anybody else has.
And um, we realized that we could use some of
the main power from there to help move the needle
forward with where we're going with the company. And it
was a shared vision between the agents we brought in
(03:43):
and where we're going. And I think that these opportunities
as well in the happened every fifteen maybe twenty years,
and we weren't going to let this go by. It
was a moment in time. Thank you, Jim Goes Now,
Jim Osborne, I would say, out of all of this
chaos in the market, creating an opportunity where Jim and
(04:04):
I were able to partner with Yakaipa and Ron Burgle.
So out of necessity, right because it was obviously a
very difficult time, we sought out the proper partner who
actually really supported the entertainment business, the agency business, the
history of Hollywood, and I think having that support gave
us a certain amount of financial stability. And then when
(04:26):
this happens with the w G A, Jim was actually
the president of the A t A at the time,
and we ultimately signed the code um and were the
recipient of thirty to forty excellent writer show runners who
were able to sign at that window. They've all stayed
with us, so they came in and we've retained them,
(04:48):
and I think through a period of of stabilization when
this happened with I, C M and c A, Jim
was fully prepared to go after these agents, to acquire them,
bring them in and reshape this destiny yeah, yeah, I
think that. You know, Jimmy and I were able to
sit down and we both share the same vision and
(05:08):
we believe that moving forward and looking down the road,
if we're looking twenty miles down the road, it's really
about representation that hasn't changed and anything that we do,
it's about representing artists and what are you going to
do with those artists? And when this opportunity presented ourselves,
we made a list of people that we would like
to work with, and out of that list also became
(05:29):
people that we didn't even think were possible or that,
you know, we'ren't going to make that journey, or maybe
didn't want to come to another agency, maybe didn't enjoy
the agency experience anymore. So we're very fortunate in that
that we were able to get most of the people
we went after. What story, I don't know if I'm
allowed to say this part of work. So I had
(05:52):
been courting an agent for a very long time. We
had worked at Paradigm together Rodgers, and he has a
very complementary list with Regina Hall and Michael Rainy, and
we worked with fifty and Mary J. Blige and and
I've been courting Andrew for a long time, and so
much so that he invited me to go on a
fishing trip. So I went on the fishing trip. I
did not know it was a spiritual retreat which I
(06:14):
went on. I didn't catch any fish, but ultimately, through destiny,
all of a sudden this happened. And Andrew and I
had become so close that he was so excited to
come to a p A. And this is years long
of courtship. So I got no fish, but we didn't
get Andrew. And Andrew brought Michael Sarah and Michael Rainy
and Regina Hall and Ken Jong and just an incredible
(06:37):
influx of talent um and talent that is focused on
building out production companies and brains. So it was perfect time.
That was my next question for you was in terms
of the people that he went after, did you go forward?
Did you go strategically by sector, you know, literary music,
that kind of stuff, or was it more personalities that
you thought when fare both well, that's a good point
(07:00):
I think in any of the interview process. Shoot, I
mean the way we both kind of look at this,
we look at it the same way, and these are
people we want to work with but what we're trying
to accomplish. If we had a whole of music, we
accomplished that. We went into the music agents that we
thought would really work for us and that we could
work with on the reality side, alternative television. We found
(07:22):
in several people in those areas, these are holes that
we wanted to fill. Talent and you Rodgers, you know,
um Phoebeu came over and other people that we just
felt they they'll help us make a difference here and
that's what we're in and and sit there. It was
very curated. I mean it was strategic because this was
(07:42):
an elongate process right for the merger to go through,
So we had a lot of time to be positioning
ourselves to be trying to see who would be a
good match and and leg said, figure out where we
needed extra power within the company and manpower and so
it was strategic and a loan process. But we couldn't
be happier with the results. The process really started when
(08:06):
the an answerment came out. We didn't wait till the
less and we were que I think it was last October.
We were on that that week. We were setting lunches
and meetings not to interfere with anybody's agreement, but to
basically sit down with people and say, listen, if you
don't go or you don't want to go, come to us.
(08:27):
We'd love to have you. And we kind of planted
those season and stayed on that through the whole process,
which I think we all thought took way longer than
it should have for many reasons. I think with the
d O J and all that other stuff at the
high level, especially at the Wall Street level, there is
a sense that the entertainment business is a little bit
of crisis. How are you at the level of, you know,
(08:49):
with packaging, with television packaging going away and putting more
emphasis on the ten percent business Like this might sound
like a naive question, but is that still a good business?
It sure's onund like it is with you bringing on
these people at the certain world level of we're going
to get over three hundred clients and we're looking at,
you know, eight figures. We're going to have the best
(09:09):
year next year we've ever had because of the the
certain of the moves that we make currently and the
way the businesses run now from where it was and
business Yeah, I think you know, during the pandemic. Everybody
got conscient in the stomach pretty hard, every agency out there,
because everything came to a screech at all. Prior to that,
(09:29):
we were just coming out of We just signed the
agreements with the Guild, with the Writer's Guild and then
that was the end of January and in March, you know,
the world blew up in So I think necessity forces
you to look at your business in a way that
we've never looked at it before. Certainly having a ukaipa's
help and structuring things was was tremendous in the way
(09:53):
that we look at our business and we were able
to then make the move that we made in you know,
I fifteen agents to join us. So um, I don't
know that we wouldn't been able to accomplish that in
the past, but we were able to. We're looking at
growth and we're looking into future, and yes, Timber Center
alive and well, however, there's other businesses out there that
(10:15):
you know, we wouldn't be open to. Adding on to
what Jim was saying is, you know, with the Big three,
so to speak, there's very little real estate left of scale.
So what is great about an agency, It is the epicenter,
right and that is leads to many other businesses, the
(10:36):
talent of the town in which leads to so many
other openings, you know, in terms of other businesses from
you look at Endeavor obviously going into the Ultimate Fighting
Championship and the bull rioting, and then see a getting
into sports. So it's it's it's a gateway, it's a
pass through into all these other kind of add ons
which can create a real entertainment company. But at the
(10:59):
court half to be talent representation and of course you know,
I mean in the world that you are most active
in is right now, you know, or great talent of vision.
It just seems like this guy's the limit right now. Well,
there's never been a better time to be an actor
in terms of the amount of opportunities. There are so
(11:20):
many new buyers of of of real importance that are
spending a great deal of money. Apple, Amazon is on
a real growth and there's so many more potential shows
being produced and acting jobs. So it's it's never been
better in terms of getting a job and focusing on
career growth and the fees that are being associated now
(11:42):
with major talent as these distributors compete with each other
are scaling up to really extremely high levels. Um so
there's a great deal of competition for high end acting talent,
and I think also the ability for these artists to
build out production and teas and shift from simply a
(12:02):
fee based situation to really being part of the ownership
of the content and have a real voice in the
creative creation of it. So less active for higher more
building your own content. That are you worried at all
as representatives, as talent advocates that there while at the
(12:23):
same time talent on the one hand, they have a
bigger megaphone with social and they have there's so many
that so many people want talent that brings people to
the screen. At the same time, you've got you know,
six D eight companies that really dominate business, and they're
in the business of upfront you know, big upfront fees,
but upfront not necessarily one time payments. But it's not
(12:43):
the long tail profit participation that that world is shifting
in the new world order of streaming, in the way
content licensing is being done. Are you concerned as talent
advocates that long term that your clients won't make as
much as they did under the old system where they
have a you know, a couple of points that for sure,
and I think the artist should share on the tail
(13:05):
of the revenue. And I think that ultimately something will
definitely there'll be a recording, you know of that, but
artists deserved to have a continued revenue street um, you know,
content that can live for you know, third or fifty years.
And I think the pendulum could swing the other way.
I think when somebody wants something bad enough, it'll swing
(13:27):
the other way. And right now it is where it is.
You know, we've figured it out and you know we
haven't allowed that to impede what we want to do.
So I think that you know, obviously having the clients
that can generate that, but I also know that if
somebody wants something bad enough, they may make a different
(13:49):
type of deal or something hydebread of that. So who
knows where it's going to be in the future. We've
seen a lot of very high level emin a Brother's
Discovery backs. Do you feel that you know, it's it's
sort of like, as you say, like there's more outlets
and opportunity before, but when you look behind the scenes
that it's pretty consolidated ownership. How do you do you
feel do you feel consolidation, you feel the pinsion consolidation
(14:14):
or does it still feel like it's a very buoyant
I think market you want no go ahead. I was
just gonna say, you're seeing a lot of vertical integration
where you have one entity at the top that then
has multiple different distribution platforms well, so you'll have Viatocomparamount
Plus and then you have all of the labels underneath it.
(14:35):
So it is starting to head in that direction of
almost siloed um and entity, but there's still so many
buyers that it's they're also competing with themselves on a
lot of them. Have you felt much impact from the
change that was that did come with the w J
agreements with the Now that the packaging actually it's been
(14:56):
a year later and the packaging actually has sunset, it
has that. Is that something that you have felt in
the bottom line at all? The sunsetting of them? No,
it hasn't. Because in that time where the w g
A had everybody fired their agents, we were able to
sign a lot more television show runners and all of that,
(15:19):
and we doubled down on our lip business. Our limp
business is actually up, not down. In the core business
of you know, setting up film and TV shows. How
are you dealing with the volume increase? I asked this
to everybody in the business at every level, and only
I'm just curious because literally, like it's as if somebody
just flipped the switch and the factor. It's like we
see an with the chocolates, like we were not up.
(15:41):
And you know, one of our incredible clients who has
been so good to this agency is fifty He has
twenty two television shows. Achiever. Yes, he is the most
natural marketer I've ever seen and has his finger on
the pulse right for for the audience and for his
his um work ethic is just incredible. So twenty two
(16:04):
shows sold six or seven on air, and it is
a constant cycle of development and building. So it is.
It takes a lot of time, but it is. It
is the opportunities. And Mary J. Blige, you know, she
has to first look production company deals with show shooting
right now for lifetime, while she's doing a music tour,
(16:26):
while the company is selling other TV shows. So many
times to adjust, artists have to live in multiple areas
at once because they want to take advantage of all
the opportunity. But yeah, we don't get a lot of sleep.
Don't even think about changing agencies. We'll be right back
with more from a p A s Jim Gosnell and
(16:47):
Jim Osborne. Streaming has become the new TV today, Free
ad supported streaming TV otherwise known as FAST has opened
up new revenue streams her platform as advertisers and content
owners partner with Amagi, a global leader in Fast to
reach two hundred million plus CTV households, more than one
(17:10):
hundred platforms, over seven hundred content brands, and access fifty
billion plus AD opportunities. So make a fast move, visit
a Magi dot com today and we're back with more
from a p A leaders Jim Gosnell and Jim Osborne.
(17:32):
Let's talk about the touring business because I know a
p A has belonged had a real stronghold in the
in the touring business, the ships, as they used to say,
in the touring business. How I mean, obviously it took
a big hit in the pandemic, but I mean the
senses that that it's back, and boy is it back?
Is it? Yeah? I mean when you look at Humanitiki
(17:53):
said something like Mary Jay Laws is selling right now
arena level uh and and just doing trim endlessly. But
but in all aspects of the touring end of it
is alive and well. It's finally I think it's a
little first quarter was a little bit slower than anybody
thought it was going to be. That was still dealing
with pandemic things. But since then it's really picked up steam.
And now coming into the fall, it's Gangbusters really doing well. So, uh,
(18:18):
we're seeing a lot of shows doing very well, and
twenty three looks like it's going to be equally as good,
if not better. Yeah. Mary just is on our way
to l A. She just did did a five day
tour all arenas across the United States for kind of
a new promoter that came up during the pandemic, the
BPC Black Promoters Collective, And I was just got back
(18:41):
from Atlanta. It was packed. I mean, so touring business
is for sure alive and well and something that we
want to focus on greatly in the future. Even more
is that like an effort to kind of create some
some help. That's good because boy, if there's a consolidated business,
well yeah, but it's you know, it's a business that
(19:02):
people what I experienced, and I think that other people
have been the shows. People want to get out of
the house. They want to get out of the house,
they want to get back to what they love doing,
and they don't particularly care what the ticket prices or
if it's an honest they want to see. They're buying
a ticket and they're going. And I think it's an
exciting time right now. I believe that that business will
(19:24):
be alive and well, of course it took a huge
hit before. It was the first time since depressions and
wars and everything else that nobody was going to see
a live shop and now it's come back gangbusters. You
both have made mention of the investment, the partnership that
you established in twenty I think Fall with Ron Herkell
(19:46):
of been a big investor in southern California. Has it
invested and dabbled here and there in media, not a ton,
But tell me about how that relationship came about. Well,
Jimmy actually sourced it. You could you could talk about
I um again, it was at a moment where everyone
was kind of looking around as COVID it's a hard time.
(20:09):
We were like, where's the end of this tunnel? To
be honest. I had a friend who knew Ron and
in essence I cold called him. Was very gracious. I
went up and met with him and kind of took
him through who we are, what our philosophy is more
of kind of like the old Lou Wasserman model, you know,
(20:29):
more artists and representation, and he is a big fan
of old Hollywood and saw potential. And then Jim and
I went up and met with him for a while.
Uh and ultimately he went off his gut and got
behind us and you know, gave us the courage to
(20:50):
keep going and ultimately has been an incredible guide. And
his executives at the KYPE have been remarkable in terms
of a set funding board and giving us good you know,
financial discipline and um and through the yr Kaiper Companies,
we've gotten to get relationships with a number of other
portfolio companies, So like Duncan Heath. I knew Duncan from
(21:14):
ed La Motto, but now you know he also works
with Yakaipa and so we're able to connect and really
find a synergy trying to find a cross polity between
the different companies, and it's just been extremely helpful. And
you know, I think Jim. Yeah, I went. And the
one thing about meeting Ron for the first time is
(21:36):
this is somebody who's passionate about the business. You're not
just meeting a hedge fund that let's at you like, well,
you're a business and I think you could do this
a little bit better than you're doing it. Um Ron
came from a place he really loves to entertainment, and
that came through to me more than anything else in
the meeting. And it's very passionate about it in a
(21:56):
way that I didn't expect that. And I think that
when you meet with somebody, and certainly what he's accomplished
in his life is amazing in itself. To a supermarket, yea,
I started out. I started out as a stockboy in
the super Mario is amazing. But I just you know,
the last thing he said is, you know, show me
(22:19):
somebody who's not taking risk, and I'll show you somebody
is not getting anywhere. And he also said, don't forget
it's good to have a billionaire in your corner. And
during that time I left that meeting going I think
I'm gonna sleep a little bit better tonight. And and
and it's really shut and we never had that kind
of financial packing. A p A management owned. Yeah, it
(22:42):
was management owned, and um, you know, we were always
looking down the road more long term. But um, you
know we need to have a stick in the spokes
once where everything comes to a screeching hole. Well, don't
forget w M ME and silver Lake and and chep
J and christ View what I c M. We you know,
(23:03):
we weren't involved with anybody, and not saying that we
didn't want to be, but it just wasn't There wasn't
something we were focusing on, and when this event came
focused us to focus on it. But more importantly, it's
not just getting anybody's getting the right quart or somebody
who understands where your business is at. And also somebody
(23:24):
is passionate about what you do, and we accomplished both
those things were being wrong. Tell me a little bit
more about this agency's origins as you hit As you
hit sixty this year, UM, I have to admit I
don't know a ton about a p A. I'm guessing
it was like most agencies, it was probably the result
of the combination of other agents. Yeah, it's it's fascinating
(23:49):
that a PA came about when Lou Wasserman divested himself
of the agency business so much that was like year
one of the modern Age. Rank Kennedy's you know, Robert
Kennedy came in and said, you cannot be. You cannot
represent production being a studio business and being the agency
(24:11):
business where you're buying and selling your client. How is
this not a limited series? Well, versus Lou Wasserman, we
could cast it here, here, here, here, it is. You're ready.
They got a waiver from the Screen Actors Skill, but
their client ran the scheme screen actors, so they went.
(24:34):
Wasserman decided to divest themselves of the agency business. There
was several different rumors going around, but I think this
one is probably the one that wins out. He didn't
want another agency to come back and kill him, so
he split it into many pieces and he was fine
with that. APA was one of those cases. David von
(24:55):
Garden formed a p A with the help of Harry Belafonte,
who was his biggest client at the time. Harry Bellefonte
len Us his offices on fifty seventh Street and UM
and I had the good fortune of having Harry in
my office maybe three or four years ago. And I said,
I think we owe it all to you, and he said, well, yeah,
(25:16):
I had a lot to do with it. And I said,
you know, this company was started with ten thousand dollars.
He goes, I think it was my ten thousand dollars.
So that wasn't sort of a nice I don't know,
because that's the early sixties when he was having his
big hits. He played a month at the Greek Theater.
That's how big he was. He was. He was the
(25:37):
most important touring act in Nagar. And also, I mean,
what a what a person would humanitarian? Like? Like, what
an awesome? What an awesome? And so the company got
started from that. But a little antedote on Ronald Reagan.
You know, the story goes where you know it, the
(25:57):
universe was sitting around going, you know some of the
laws in California. I mean, what are we gonna do?
And so we should get our own governor, and he
got Ronald Reagan to run, and of course he won
and then ultimately became president. And the story goes that
he invited his agents inaugural night to the White House
and they're all lined up, all the people that used
(26:17):
to represent them, and as they came up one by one,
and Reagan leaned in and said, you know, you guys
have done a better job of my career. I wouldn't
have to take this gig. So so anyway, UM A
p a U started in New York, and then we
had an office in Chicago. Before we had an office
in Los Angeles, which I don't understand. But then then
(26:40):
we acquired a talent agency by a gentleman by name
of Al Gatski owned a talent agency. UM was partners
with a gentleman named Bruce Adanna in New York, and
that brought in our talent, got our talent department going.
And then of course we're always very big in comedy
by the Rowan and Martin and Steve Martin and all
(27:00):
those other people and so yeah, and Johnny Cash for
thirty five years and all of that. So I was
fortunately I got to join the company in So it's
been you know, it's been a hell of a ride. Um.
There were three partners, three main stockholders, Roger Voris, Marty Clin,
John Gaines. John Gaines and Marty Clin died thirty days apart,
(27:23):
fifty and fifty one years old. I mean, can you
imagine if God forbid Mike Ovids and Ron Meyer, I mean,
that would have been the end of that company. Um,
but we we we felt it, you know, we could
carry on. Roger VORs came out from New York and
took over the West, took over the whole company. And
I always felt, we're going to get smaller before we
(27:45):
get bigger. And of course we lost a lot of
clients during that period that John and Marty were the
responsible Agent four. But you know, we felt we could
build it back, and that sort of the story did. Yeah,
here we are today. I mean, Jim, you've a lot
a lot come and go. What what you know? If
you if you had to like make a prediction or
(28:05):
talk about sort of where's the agency business going in?
I love your perspective on that. Well, I think the
agency business is alive and well. I think that people
will always want to be represented. And I think the
job of any good agents that figure out can you
move your client across multiple verticals because clients are now
(28:26):
working in different areas and everything before actors for instance,
or brand endorsements and all that other stuff, So you
have to be in those areas of the business. But
it is alive and well, and I think that Wall
Street and has woken up to the fact that maybe
there is something in the agency business. You're seeing these
companies which looks like they're going to go public. Um,
(28:47):
certainly see A and probably U T A, and UM
I'm looking at A P A. And I think Jimmy
feels the same way. We have beach front property here
and we're attracting people that feel there's no ceiling on
where they can be and that's why we've become a
destination place for other agency to join us. And I
do think on that we're in a unique opportunity right now,
(29:09):
as some of these other agencies have in many ways
morphed out of being an agency where they've gotten so
big that they don't even call themselves agencies. They call
them those media companies, right, So I think that that's
created a huge opportunity for us in the landscape to
really take a position as a true alternative to the
Big three and really solidify our place because others don't
(29:33):
do music, don't do this. We have a full service
entity with the reach of a major, but really the
philosophy still of a boutique, although we do work the
agency architecture extremely well in terms of moving clients across divisions. Um.
But it creates an opportunity where we can take in
(29:53):
certain artists and really monetize them to a tremendous amount.
So some of the best clients we have came from
other places where they weren't getting the right level of attention.
And you know, clearly we're in the very strong, solid
fourth position and I think, um, you know, perhaps one
day will rival number three, but right now it's all
(30:16):
about artists first and solidifying our core base. But we've
we were very much the recipient of market openings with
the disappearance of I c M, where I started in
the mail room and worked for at Lamoto. And so
now that is gone and we have in essence taken
(30:37):
over a role which destiny timing and having row Berger
behind us and Jim guiding us and being able to
acquire fifteen agents is quite remarkable. And I think we've
all seen the agency business fluctuate, right. And the thing
that always got me is I got several mini culser
(30:58):
the d O J about this C A, I c M.
This is going to harden the business. And I have
to admit I always thought it was a little writer's
centric the conversation. But I said, you don't know the
history of the agency business. If you think that William R.
S bought Endeavor, did the companies not grow around them? No,
(31:21):
everybody grow up. You know. The good thing about representation, Um,
they had the choice to go wherever they want to go. Now,
sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad. However, UM, we're all
in business to continue and hopefully take their careers to
another level. The agencies, you know, merging like this didn't
(31:42):
create a problem for the business or clients. The doors
wide open, and I think that will always happen. I
think new agencies may have verage out of this, maybe
a couple of small agencies to get together. Who knows
where we're going to be in five years and what
we're gonna do. But I don't see this as constricting
the business. So I really don't. And did you, may
I ask you, is that kind of the tenor of
(32:03):
what you told the d J seven times? No, I
mean I've never had I gotta be honest. The conversations
were borderline ridiculous, and how they thought about the business
works that c A and I see them are gonna
have such a hold in the business. They're gonna be
able to go to Netflix and tell them what they're
gonna buy and when they're gonna buy it, and who's
(32:24):
gonna star in it and all that. And I said,
you were so wrong. That's not how I can only
tell you. It was one call is five lawyers on
the phone, and they're going You were quoted as saying
that this is good for them and it's gonna be
great for you. Do you stand by that. I don't
know that was an understatement. It's gonna be fantastic for us.
I said, you don't get it. Clients will become available,
(32:45):
agents will become available. You know, who knows how that's
all going to shake out, but it creates an opportunity
for everybody. It's who decides to take advantage of it
or not. And I said, you didn't care about Disney
and you know of Fox getting together, and I think,
bother you, why is this such a big deal. I
couldn't get it, only that you know somebody who's complaining
(33:07):
and got to the d O J and finally, you know,
they improved. But I was very supportive of of that merger,
not for reasons of what are we gonna what is
ap A gonna get it? Just that I don't think
that the d o J should have anything to say
about the agency business and entertainment. I mean, it's just
so out of their realm. There's so many other things
(33:28):
that should be doing and this is not one of them.
That's my opinion. I just want to say, I like
the d o J. I don't want to be audited.
I don't want to tax. But no. But but the
thing you're still right where the conceptual misses if you
just go back historically, like I see m was an
amalgamation of many agency actually famous Endeavor just before you know,
(33:51):
we were having this meeting. I looked and I remember
when or left. I see him, that's twenty seven years ago.
There was no Endeavor and look what a power full
agency force it's become. So this is all natural. You
know that things break apart, come together, and you know
the same thing I had. I was very lucky to
have lunch with Ron Meyer a couple of weeks ago,
(34:12):
and he talked about when they started him and Mike.
You know, they never envisioned that there would be such
an appetite for a service business as we're seeing now,
He said he probably never would have left UM, and
so I think that it's it's like you said, Jim,
it's it's it isn't in the business that you have
to understand and if you look at it from the outside,
(34:33):
you don't see. Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave
us a review at Apple Podcasts. We love to hear
from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com to sign
up for the free Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget
to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.
(35:00):
To take at betle Thing detain
Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Right Today. My
guests are the two top leaders of Talent Agency A
p A. Jim Gosnell is CEO and Jim Osborne as President.
(00:28):
The Gym's as they're known at the agency, are leading
the company into its sixtieth year in three with big ambition.
A p A has added fifteen agents and counting to
its ranks. Amid all the disruption across the ten percentury business,
most specifically the shakeout from CIA's acquisition of I c
(00:49):
M Partners. With w E, CIA and U t A
now firmly entrenched as Hollywood's Big three, A p A
sees a moment to grow to become the full service
alternative for working Hollywood. The big swing for the coming
year is a far cry from where they were in
the fall, when the business was shut down and the
(01:11):
outlook was gloomy. Agencies at that time were already reeling
from the battle over packaging with the Writer's Guild of America,
but investor Ron Burkel of U KAIPA companies came into
the picture for a PA around that time. He's now
given them the financial foundation to go for it. Because
Nell and Osborne are candid about where they see opportunity
(01:33):
for a p A. They also dishebit about their vantage
point on the Justice Department's probe of the agency business
as part of the CIA I c M review. That's
all coming up after the break. Streaming has become the
new TV today. Free ad supported streaming TV otherwise known
(01:55):
as FAST, has opened up new revenue streams for platforms
advertised there's and content owners partner with Amagi, a global
leader in fast to reach two hundred million plus CTV households,
more than one hundred platforms, over seven hundred content brands,
and access fifty billion plus AD opportunities. So make a
(02:18):
fast move. Visit Amagi dot com today and we're back
with more from a p A leaders Jim Gosnell and
Jim Osborne. But I'd love to just start throwing it
out to both of you. What do you see on
the horizon? What gave you the encouragement to go after
(02:40):
bringing in people from the consolidation of CIA and I
see them earlier this year a lot of good people
were on the market, and a lot of them have
come to a p A well. I think you know,
first of all, if we were all sitting around to
three years ago and I said that is going to
buy I c M, everybody would have said, you're out
of your mind. That's not going to have been all
(03:01):
of that. What we saw this tremendous opportunity and we
weren't going to let opportunity go by without striking. And
what basically happened is we knew a lot of the
agents that we brought in, we weren't sure that they
were going to be making the journey to see a
whether they wanted to or didn't want to, or weren't
(03:21):
going to be invited. However they did that. But no
matter what, we decided to really take advantage of that
situation in a way that I don't think anybody else has.
And um, we realized that we could use some of
the main power from there to help move the needle
forward with where we're going with the company. And it
was a shared vision between the agents we brought in
(03:43):
and where we're going. And I think that these opportunities
as well in the happened every fifteen maybe twenty years,
and we weren't going to let this go by. It
was a moment in time. Thank you, Jim Goes Now,
Jim Osborne, I would say, out of all of this
chaos in the market, creating an opportunity where Jim and
(04:04):
I were able to partner with Yakaipa and Ron Burgle.
So out of necessity, right because it was obviously a
very difficult time, we sought out the proper partner who
actually really supported the entertainment business, the agency business, the
history of Hollywood, and I think having that support gave
us a certain amount of financial stability. And then when
(04:26):
this happens with the w G A, Jim was actually
the president of the A t A at the time,
and we ultimately signed the code um and were the
recipient of thirty to forty excellent writer show runners who
were able to sign at that window. They've all stayed
with us, so they came in and we've retained them,
(04:48):
and I think through a period of of stabilization when
this happened with I, C M and c A, Jim
was fully prepared to go after these agents, to acquire them,
bring them in and reshape this destiny yeah, yeah, I
think that. You know, Jimmy and I were able to
sit down and we both share the same vision and
(05:08):
we believe that moving forward and looking down the road,
if we're looking twenty miles down the road, it's really
about representation that hasn't changed and anything that we do,
it's about representing artists and what are you going to
do with those artists? And when this opportunity presented ourselves,
we made a list of people that we would like
to work with, and out of that list also became
(05:29):
people that we didn't even think were possible or that,
you know, we'ren't going to make that journey, or maybe
didn't want to come to another agency, maybe didn't enjoy
the agency experience anymore. So we're very fortunate in that
that we were able to get most of the people
we went after. What story, I don't know if I'm
allowed to say this part of work. So I had
(05:52):
been courting an agent for a very long time. We
had worked at Paradigm together Rodgers, and he has a
very complementary list with Regina Hall and Michael Rainy, and
we worked with fifty and Mary J. Blige and and
I've been courting Andrew for a long time, and so
much so that he invited me to go on a
fishing trip. So I went on the fishing trip. I
did not know it was a spiritual retreat which I
(06:14):
went on. I didn't catch any fish, but ultimately, through destiny,
all of a sudden this happened. And Andrew and I
had become so close that he was so excited to
come to a p A. And this is years long
of courtship. So I got no fish, but we didn't
get Andrew. And Andrew brought Michael Sarah and Michael Rainy
and Regina Hall and Ken Jong and just an incredible
(06:37):
influx of talent um and talent that is focused on
building out production companies and brains. So it was perfect time.
That was my next question for you was in terms
of the people that he went after, did you go forward?
Did you go strategically by sector, you know, literary music,
that kind of stuff, or was it more personalities that
you thought when fare both well, that's a good point
(07:00):
I think in any of the interview process. Shoot, I
mean the way we both kind of look at this,
we look at it the same way, and these are
people we want to work with but what we're trying
to accomplish. If we had a whole of music, we
accomplished that. We went into the music agents that we
thought would really work for us and that we could
work with on the reality side, alternative television. We found
(07:22):
in several people in those areas, these are holes that
we wanted to fill. Talent and you Rodgers, you know,
um Phoebeu came over and other people that we just
felt they they'll help us make a difference here and
that's what we're in and and sit there. It was
very curated. I mean it was strategic because this was
(07:42):
an elongate process right for the merger to go through,
So we had a lot of time to be positioning
ourselves to be trying to see who would be a
good match and and leg said, figure out where we
needed extra power within the company and manpower and so
it was strategic and a loan process. But we couldn't
be happier with the results. The process really started when
(08:06):
the an answerment came out. We didn't wait till the
less and we were que I think it was last October.
We were on that that week. We were setting lunches
and meetings not to interfere with anybody's agreement, but to
basically sit down with people and say, listen, if you
don't go or you don't want to go, come to us.
(08:27):
We'd love to have you. And we kind of planted
those season and stayed on that through the whole process,
which I think we all thought took way longer than
it should have for many reasons. I think with the
d O J and all that other stuff at the
high level, especially at the Wall Street level, there is
a sense that the entertainment business is a little bit
of crisis. How are you at the level of, you know,
(08:49):
with packaging, with television packaging going away and putting more
emphasis on the ten percent business Like this might sound
like a naive question, but is that still a good business?
It sure's onund like it is with you bringing on
these people at the certain world level of we're going
to get over three hundred clients and we're looking at,
you know, eight figures. We're going to have the best
(09:09):
year next year we've ever had because of the the
certain of the moves that we make currently and the
way the businesses run now from where it was and
business Yeah, I think you know, during the pandemic. Everybody
got conscient in the stomach pretty hard, every agency out there,
because everything came to a screech at all. Prior to that,
(09:29):
we were just coming out of We just signed the
agreements with the Guild, with the Writer's Guild and then
that was the end of January and in March, you know,
the world blew up in So I think necessity forces
you to look at your business in a way that
we've never looked at it before. Certainly having a ukaipa's
help and structuring things was was tremendous in the way
(09:53):
that we look at our business and we were able
to then make the move that we made in you know,
I fifteen agents to join us. So um, I don't
know that we wouldn't been able to accomplish that in
the past, but we were able to. We're looking at
growth and we're looking into future, and yes, Timber Center
alive and well, however, there's other businesses out there that
(10:15):
you know, we wouldn't be open to. Adding on to
what Jim was saying is, you know, with the Big three,
so to speak, there's very little real estate left of scale.
So what is great about an agency, It is the epicenter,
right and that is leads to many other businesses, the
(10:36):
talent of the town in which leads to so many
other openings, you know, in terms of other businesses from
you look at Endeavor obviously going into the Ultimate Fighting
Championship and the bull rioting, and then see a getting
into sports. So it's it's it's a gateway, it's a
pass through into all these other kind of add ons
which can create a real entertainment company. But at the
(10:59):
court half to be talent representation and of course you know,
I mean in the world that you are most active
in is right now, you know, or great talent of vision.
It just seems like this guy's the limit right now. Well,
there's never been a better time to be an actor
in terms of the amount of opportunities. There are so
(11:20):
many new buyers of of of real importance that are
spending a great deal of money. Apple, Amazon is on
a real growth and there's so many more potential shows
being produced and acting jobs. So it's it's never been
better in terms of getting a job and focusing on
career growth and the fees that are being associated now
(11:42):
with major talent as these distributors compete with each other
are scaling up to really extremely high levels. Um so
there's a great deal of competition for high end acting talent,
and I think also the ability for these artists to
build out production and teas and shift from simply a
(12:02):
fee based situation to really being part of the ownership
of the content and have a real voice in the
creative creation of it. So less active for higher more
building your own content. That are you worried at all
as representatives, as talent advocates that there while at the
(12:23):
same time talent on the one hand, they have a
bigger megaphone with social and they have there's so many
that so many people want talent that brings people to
the screen. At the same time, you've got you know,
six D eight companies that really dominate business, and they're
in the business of upfront you know, big upfront fees,
but upfront not necessarily one time payments. But it's not
(12:43):
the long tail profit participation that that world is shifting
in the new world order of streaming, in the way
content licensing is being done. Are you concerned as talent
advocates that long term that your clients won't make as
much as they did under the old system where they
have a you know, a couple of points that for sure,
and I think the artist should share on the tail
(13:05):
of the revenue. And I think that ultimately something will
definitely there'll be a recording, you know of that, but
artists deserved to have a continued revenue street um, you know,
content that can live for you know, third or fifty years.
And I think the pendulum could swing the other way.
I think when somebody wants something bad enough, it'll swing
(13:27):
the other way. And right now it is where it is.
You know, we've figured it out and you know we
haven't allowed that to impede what we want to do.
So I think that you know, obviously having the clients
that can generate that, but I also know that if
somebody wants something bad enough, they may make a different
(13:49):
type of deal or something hydebread of that. So who
knows where it's going to be in the future. We've
seen a lot of very high level emin a Brother's
Discovery backs. Do you feel that you know, it's it's
sort of like, as you say, like there's more outlets
and opportunity before, but when you look behind the scenes
that it's pretty consolidated ownership. How do you do you
feel do you feel consolidation, you feel the pinsion consolidation
(14:14):
or does it still feel like it's a very buoyant
I think market you want no go ahead. I was
just gonna say, you're seeing a lot of vertical integration
where you have one entity at the top that then
has multiple different distribution platforms well, so you'll have Viatocomparamount
Plus and then you have all of the labels underneath it.
(14:35):
So it is starting to head in that direction of
almost siloed um and entity, but there's still so many
buyers that it's they're also competing with themselves on a
lot of them. Have you felt much impact from the
change that was that did come with the w J
agreements with the Now that the packaging actually it's been
(14:56):
a year later and the packaging actually has sunset, it
has that. Is that something that you have felt in
the bottom line at all? The sunsetting of them? No,
it hasn't. Because in that time where the w g
A had everybody fired their agents, we were able to
sign a lot more television show runners and all of that,
(15:19):
and we doubled down on our lip business. Our limp
business is actually up, not down. In the core business
of you know, setting up film and TV shows. How
are you dealing with the volume increase? I asked this
to everybody in the business at every level, and only
I'm just curious because literally, like it's as if somebody
just flipped the switch and the factor. It's like we
see an with the chocolates, like we were not up.
(15:41):
And you know, one of our incredible clients who has
been so good to this agency is fifty He has
twenty two television shows. Achiever. Yes, he is the most
natural marketer I've ever seen and has his finger on
the pulse right for for the audience and for his
his um work ethic is just incredible. So twenty two
(16:04):
shows sold six or seven on air, and it is
a constant cycle of development and building. So it is.
It takes a lot of time, but it is. It
is the opportunities. And Mary J. Blige, you know, she
has to first look production company deals with show shooting
right now for lifetime, while she's doing a music tour,
(16:26):
while the company is selling other TV shows. So many
times to adjust, artists have to live in multiple areas
at once because they want to take advantage of all
the opportunity. But yeah, we don't get a lot of sleep.
Don't even think about changing agencies. We'll be right back
with more from a p A s Jim Gosnell and
(16:47):
Jim Osborne. Streaming has become the new TV today, Free
ad supported streaming TV otherwise known as FAST has opened
up new revenue streams her platform as advertisers and content
owners partner with Amagi, a global leader in Fast to
reach two hundred million plus CTV households, more than one
(17:10):
hundred platforms, over seven hundred content brands, and access fifty
billion plus AD opportunities. So make a fast move, visit
a Magi dot com today and we're back with more
from a p A leaders Jim Gosnell and Jim Osborne.
(17:32):
Let's talk about the touring business because I know a
p A has belonged had a real stronghold in the
in the touring business, the ships, as they used to say,
in the touring business. How I mean, obviously it took
a big hit in the pandemic, but I mean the
senses that that it's back, and boy is it back?
Is it? Yeah? I mean when you look at Humanitiki
(17:53):
said something like Mary Jay Laws is selling right now
arena level uh and and just doing trim endlessly. But
but in all aspects of the touring end of it
is alive and well. It's finally I think it's a
little first quarter was a little bit slower than anybody
thought it was going to be. That was still dealing
with pandemic things. But since then it's really picked up steam.
And now coming into the fall, it's Gangbusters really doing well. So, uh,
(18:18):
we're seeing a lot of shows doing very well, and
twenty three looks like it's going to be equally as good,
if not better. Yeah. Mary just is on our way
to l A. She just did did a five day
tour all arenas across the United States for kind of
a new promoter that came up during the pandemic, the
BPC Black Promoters Collective, And I was just got back
(18:41):
from Atlanta. It was packed. I mean, so touring business
is for sure alive and well and something that we
want to focus on greatly in the future. Even more
is that like an effort to kind of create some
some help. That's good because boy, if there's a consolidated business,
well yeah, but it's you know, it's a business that
(19:02):
people what I experienced, and I think that other people
have been the shows. People want to get out of
the house. They want to get out of the house,
they want to get back to what they love doing,
and they don't particularly care what the ticket prices or
if it's an honest they want to see. They're buying
a ticket and they're going. And I think it's an
exciting time right now. I believe that that business will
(19:24):
be alive and well, of course it took a huge
hit before. It was the first time since depressions and
wars and everything else that nobody was going to see
a live shop and now it's come back gangbusters. You
both have made mention of the investment, the partnership that
you established in twenty I think Fall with Ron Herkell
(19:46):
of been a big investor in southern California. Has it
invested and dabbled here and there in media, not a ton,
But tell me about how that relationship came about. Well,
Jimmy actually sourced it. You could you could talk about
I um again, it was at a moment where everyone
was kind of looking around as COVID it's a hard time.
(20:09):
We were like, where's the end of this tunnel? To
be honest. I had a friend who knew Ron and
in essence I cold called him. Was very gracious. I
went up and met with him and kind of took
him through who we are, what our philosophy is more
of kind of like the old Lou Wasserman model, you know,
(20:29):
more artists and representation, and he is a big fan
of old Hollywood and saw potential. And then Jim and
I went up and met with him for a while.
Uh and ultimately he went off his gut and got
behind us and you know, gave us the courage to
(20:50):
keep going and ultimately has been an incredible guide. And
his executives at the KYPE have been remarkable in terms
of a set funding board and giving us good you know,
financial discipline and um and through the yr Kaiper Companies,
we've gotten to get relationships with a number of other
portfolio companies, So like Duncan Heath. I knew Duncan from
(21:14):
ed La Motto, but now you know he also works
with Yakaipa and so we're able to connect and really
find a synergy trying to find a cross polity between
the different companies, and it's just been extremely helpful. And
you know, I think Jim. Yeah, I went. And the
one thing about meeting Ron for the first time is
(21:36):
this is somebody who's passionate about the business. You're not
just meeting a hedge fund that let's at you like, well,
you're a business and I think you could do this
a little bit better than you're doing it. Um Ron
came from a place he really loves to entertainment, and
that came through to me more than anything else in
the meeting. And it's very passionate about it in a
(21:56):
way that I didn't expect that. And I think that
when you meet with somebody, and certainly what he's accomplished
in his life is amazing in itself. To a supermarket, yea,
I started out. I started out as a stockboy in
the super Mario is amazing. But I just you know,
the last thing he said is, you know, show me
(22:19):
somebody who's not taking risk, and I'll show you somebody
is not getting anywhere. And he also said, don't forget
it's good to have a billionaire in your corner. And
during that time I left that meeting going I think
I'm gonna sleep a little bit better tonight. And and
and it's really shut and we never had that kind
of financial packing. A p A management owned. Yeah, it
(22:42):
was management owned, and um, you know, we were always
looking down the road more long term. But um, you
know we need to have a stick in the spokes
once where everything comes to a screeching hole. Well, don't
forget w M ME and silver Lake and and chep
J and christ View what I c M. We you know,
(23:03):
we weren't involved with anybody, and not saying that we
didn't want to be, but it just wasn't There wasn't
something we were focusing on, and when this event came
focused us to focus on it. But more importantly, it's
not just getting anybody's getting the right quart or somebody
who understands where your business is at. And also somebody
(23:24):
is passionate about what you do, and we accomplished both
those things were being wrong. Tell me a little bit
more about this agency's origins as you hit As you
hit sixty this year, UM, I have to admit I
don't know a ton about a p A. I'm guessing
it was like most agencies, it was probably the result
of the combination of other agents. Yeah, it's it's fascinating
(23:49):
that a PA came about when Lou Wasserman divested himself
of the agency business so much that was like year
one of the modern Age. Rank Kennedy's you know, Robert
Kennedy came in and said, you cannot be. You cannot
represent production being a studio business and being the agency
(24:11):
business where you're buying and selling your client. How is
this not a limited series? Well, versus Lou Wasserman, we
could cast it here, here, here, here, it is. You're ready.
They got a waiver from the Screen Actors Skill, but
their client ran the scheme screen actors, so they went.
(24:34):
Wasserman decided to divest themselves of the agency business. There
was several different rumors going around, but I think this
one is probably the one that wins out. He didn't
want another agency to come back and kill him, so
he split it into many pieces and he was fine
with that. APA was one of those cases. David von
(24:55):
Garden formed a p A with the help of Harry Belafonte,
who was his biggest client at the time. Harry Bellefonte
len Us his offices on fifty seventh Street and UM
and I had the good fortune of having Harry in
my office maybe three or four years ago. And I said,
I think we owe it all to you, and he said, well, yeah,
(25:16):
I had a lot to do with it. And I said,
you know, this company was started with ten thousand dollars.
He goes, I think it was my ten thousand dollars.
So that wasn't sort of a nice I don't know,
because that's the early sixties when he was having his
big hits. He played a month at the Greek Theater.
That's how big he was. He was. He was the
(25:37):
most important touring act in Nagar. And also, I mean,
what a what a person would humanitarian? Like? Like, what
an awesome? What an awesome? And so the company got
started from that. But a little antedote on Ronald Reagan.
You know, the story goes where you know it, the
(25:57):
universe was sitting around going, you know some of the
laws in California. I mean, what are we gonna do?
And so we should get our own governor, and he
got Ronald Reagan to run, and of course he won
and then ultimately became president. And the story goes that
he invited his agents inaugural night to the White House
and they're all lined up, all the people that used
(26:17):
to represent them, and as they came up one by one,
and Reagan leaned in and said, you know, you guys
have done a better job of my career. I wouldn't
have to take this gig. So so anyway, UM A
p a U started in New York, and then we
had an office in Chicago. Before we had an office
in Los Angeles, which I don't understand. But then then
(26:40):
we acquired a talent agency by a gentleman by name
of Al Gatski owned a talent agency. UM was partners
with a gentleman named Bruce Adanna in New York, and
that brought in our talent, got our talent department going.
And then of course we're always very big in comedy
by the Rowan and Martin and Steve Martin and all
(27:00):
those other people and so yeah, and Johnny Cash for
thirty five years and all of that. So I was
fortunately I got to join the company in So it's
been you know, it's been a hell of a ride. Um.
There were three partners, three main stockholders, Roger Voris, Marty Clin,
John Gaines. John Gaines and Marty Clin died thirty days apart,
(27:23):
fifty and fifty one years old. I mean, can you
imagine if God forbid Mike Ovids and Ron Meyer, I mean,
that would have been the end of that company. Um,
but we we we felt it, you know, we could
carry on. Roger VORs came out from New York and
took over the West, took over the whole company. And
I always felt, we're going to get smaller before we
(27:45):
get bigger. And of course we lost a lot of
clients during that period that John and Marty were the
responsible Agent four. But you know, we felt we could
build it back, and that sort of the story did. Yeah,
here we are today. I mean, Jim, you've a lot
a lot come and go. What what you know? If
you if you had to like make a prediction or
(28:05):
talk about sort of where's the agency business going in?
I love your perspective on that. Well, I think the
agency business is alive and well. I think that people
will always want to be represented. And I think the
job of any good agents that figure out can you
move your client across multiple verticals because clients are now
(28:26):
working in different areas and everything before actors for instance,
or brand endorsements and all that other stuff, So you
have to be in those areas of the business. But
it is alive and well, and I think that Wall
Street and has woken up to the fact that maybe
there is something in the agency business. You're seeing these
companies which looks like they're going to go public. Um,
(28:47):
certainly see A and probably U T A, and UM
I'm looking at A P A. And I think Jimmy
feels the same way. We have beach front property here
and we're attracting people that feel there's no ceiling on
where they can be and that's why we've become a
destination place for other agency to join us. And I
do think on that we're in a unique opportunity right now,
(29:09):
as some of these other agencies have in many ways
morphed out of being an agency where they've gotten so
big that they don't even call themselves agencies. They call
them those media companies, right, So I think that that's
created a huge opportunity for us in the landscape to
really take a position as a true alternative to the
Big three and really solidify our place because others don't
(29:33):
do music, don't do this. We have a full service
entity with the reach of a major, but really the
philosophy still of a boutique, although we do work the
agency architecture extremely well in terms of moving clients across divisions. Um.
But it creates an opportunity where we can take in
(29:53):
certain artists and really monetize them to a tremendous amount.
So some of the best clients we have came from
other places where they weren't getting the right level of attention.
And you know, clearly we're in the very strong, solid
fourth position and I think, um, you know, perhaps one
day will rival number three, but right now it's all
(30:16):
about artists first and solidifying our core base. But we've
we were very much the recipient of market openings with
the disappearance of I c M, where I started in
the mail room and worked for at Lamoto. And so
now that is gone and we have in essence taken
(30:37):
over a role which destiny timing and having row Berger
behind us and Jim guiding us and being able to
acquire fifteen agents is quite remarkable. And I think we've
all seen the agency business fluctuate, right. And the thing
that always got me is I got several mini culser
(30:58):
the d O J about this C A, I c M.
This is going to harden the business. And I have
to admit I always thought it was a little writer's
centric the conversation. But I said, you don't know the
history of the agency business. If you think that William R.
S bought Endeavor, did the companies not grow around them? No,
(31:21):
everybody grow up. You know. The good thing about representation, Um,
they had the choice to go wherever they want to go. Now,
sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad. However, UM, we're all
in business to continue and hopefully take their careers to
another level. The agencies, you know, merging like this didn't
(31:42):
create a problem for the business or clients. The doors
wide open, and I think that will always happen. I
think new agencies may have verage out of this, maybe
a couple of small agencies to get together. Who knows
where we're going to be in five years and what
we're gonna do. But I don't see this as constricting
the business. So I really don't. And did you, may
I ask you, is that kind of the tenor of
(32:03):
what you told the d J seven times? No, I
mean I've never had I gotta be honest. The conversations
were borderline ridiculous, and how they thought about the business
works that c A and I see them are gonna
have such a hold in the business. They're gonna be
able to go to Netflix and tell them what they're
gonna buy and when they're gonna buy it, and who's
(32:24):
gonna star in it and all that. And I said,
you were so wrong. That's not how I can only
tell you. It was one call is five lawyers on
the phone, and they're going You were quoted as saying
that this is good for them and it's gonna be
great for you. Do you stand by that. I don't
know that was an understatement. It's gonna be fantastic for us.
I said, you don't get it. Clients will become available,
(32:45):
agents will become available. You know, who knows how that's
all going to shake out, but it creates an opportunity
for everybody. It's who decides to take advantage of it
or not. And I said, you didn't care about Disney
and you know of Fox getting together, and I think,
bother you, why is this such a big deal. I
couldn't get it, only that you know somebody who's complaining
(33:07):
and got to the d O J and finally, you know,
they improved. But I was very supportive of of that merger,
not for reasons of what are we gonna what is
ap A gonna get it? Just that I don't think
that the d o J should have anything to say
about the agency business and entertainment. I mean, it's just
so out of their realm. There's so many other things
(33:28):
that should be doing and this is not one of them.
That's my opinion. I just want to say, I like
the d o J. I don't want to be audited.
I don't want to tax. But no. But but the
thing you're still right where the conceptual misses if you
just go back historically, like I see m was an
amalgamation of many agency actually famous Endeavor just before you know,
(33:51):
we were having this meeting. I looked and I remember
when or left. I see him, that's twenty seven years ago.
There was no Endeavor and look what a power full
agency force it's become. So this is all natural. You
know that things break apart, come together, and you know
the same thing I had. I was very lucky to
have lunch with Ron Meyer a couple of weeks ago,
(34:12):
and he talked about when they started him and Mike.
You know, they never envisioned that there would be such
an appetite for a service business as we're seeing now,
He said he probably never would have left UM, and
so I think that it's it's like you said, Jim,
it's it's it isn't in the business that you have
to understand and if you look at it from the outside,
(34:33):
you don't see. Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave
us a review at Apple Podcasts. We love to hear
from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com to sign
up for the free Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget
to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.
(35:00):
To take at betle Thing detain
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