December 18, 2024 • 35 mins
Verve talent agency partners Liz Parker, Bryan Besser, Adam Levine and Adam Weinstein discuss the arc of the mid-sized firm's journey as its 15th anniversary approaches in 2025. The foursome address the end of packaging fees, the contraction in the creative community, finding IP in unexpected places and growth opportunities in animation.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety. Today my
guests are Liz Parker, Brian Besser, Adam Levine, and Adam Weinstein,
all partners at talent agency VERB. VERV is about to
(00:28):
market its fifteenth anniversary in business next year, and it's
been quite a fifteen years for the company, for the
industry and for the world. And we get into all
of it, how an independent agency of size stays in business,
What the end of packaging deals has meant to the
bottom line, what the pressure on talent deals in the
overall industry squeeze is doing to the creative community. And
(00:51):
we don't shy away from the big internal transition that
happened for VERB last February when founding partner Bill Weinstein
exited and wound up relocating at Paradigm. It's a candid
talk with four season deal makers. I was really happy
to be joined on this interview by Katzy Stephen, Variety's
film and media reporter, who gamely took on the talent
(01:13):
agency beat.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
For us this year.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
A great discussion about the nitty gritty of making money
with content is coming up right after this break, and
we're back with a free, willing conversation about talent representation
(01:35):
with verb partners Liz Parker, Brian Besser, Adam Levine, and
Adam Weinstein. Because we have four guests on this episode,
we'll let the four quickly introduce themselves, and then Katsy
takes it away with our first question.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Hi, I'm Liz Parker.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Hi, I'm Adam Weinstein.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Hi, I'm Adam Levin, I'm Brian Besser.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
What do you see as the biggest wins of this
year that you're proudest of.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
One of the ways that you measure up an agency
is through cultural impact and when you look and see
how the work that it's doing, how it permeates through
the consumer world. And it's funny where there was a
Monday morning this summer where I was before the staff meeting,
and I was sitting at my desk and I was
booking a flight to go to New York for the
(02:21):
premiere of our client share on his new TV show
and fight Lin Shay's career has really taken off in
the tip of the cap to our colleagues Chase Northington
and Roberto Markets. He's done an amazing job with him.
And as soon as I hit booked a walk into
the staff meeting which is being led a colleague, Chrissenriega,
and it's Monday morning staff meeting, which is my favorite meeting.
And in the meeting, he kicks it off by saying
(02:41):
it is an awesome, awesome week, and he reminds every
moment that verb has the number one movie in America,
which is co written by a clients. Well, it's Deadpole
versus Wolverine characters which are created by a client, Robinlie Film.
And we have the number one movie or the number
one TV show in streaming, which is a house of writing.
Our client, Sarah has the number two. She's phenomenal talent.
(03:04):
And then as soon as the staff meeting is over,
I walk back into the offices of our colleagues Manilhamad
and Felish Prince as they're working on creating a record
setting deal for Sarah as the number two to continue
those efforts. So it would just be just feeling that
it made us feel alive that here we were really
stacking up and that our work had great culture of impactors, awesome,
(03:25):
awesome feeling.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
It actually is the thesis for her, which is storytelling
can come and live in any direction, on any format,
in any space. And historically people you were a television writer,
you were a feature writer, you wrote books, you had
a label, and what we started the agency the idea
(03:48):
was maybe you could be a storyteller, period and we
could together figure out where the story lives. And it
was a terrifying premise because it's easier to have a
specific direction out of the gate, this is what we're doing,
this is how we're doing it.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
We wanted to do it differently because we knew that
our clients wanted.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
To tell stories and explore different formats, different platforms, different directions.
So when Bird was born, it was simply a conference
room where we settle our clients. We heard their ideas,
we heard their concepts, and we hear the themes they
wanted to explore and the characters they love, and then
we'd sit there and figure out like where does that live,
(04:30):
Where does that live? Where does that character get to
be explored deeper more extensively than anywhere else, Or maybe
you don't want to do it that way, so maybe
we do it this way. So it was a really fun,
exciting approach, which was very different from where we came
and it's kind of been the genesis of everything we
do here.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What was it about the marketplace in twenty ten? Which
seems like an eternity ago, right, My goodness, we were
two years into Obama.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
We didn't know how.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Good we have. Uh, I'm going to leave that in.
What was it about the marketplace in twenty ten? That
kind of made you see the emerging world? For that
the writers were going to be you know, I've always
been important, but they were going to be even more
you know, entrepreneurial, and so much was going to spring
(05:21):
from that. Was there something at that time around the
formation of the agency where you where you could see
things were going? I mean, Hulu was out there, Netflix
was still mostly sending out red envelopes, like what was there?
Was there stuff percolating out there that you saw at
that time?
Speaker 6 (05:36):
Absolutely the one of the biggest things that we and remember,
everything is kind of a guess, right, it's an informed opinion,
and you hope you're right, you're not always.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
But one of the things that really motivated.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
It was the business ever since we were in it
was a movie star driven business.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Right, it was defined by movie stars.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
There were movie stars and then there were everything.
Speaker 6 (05:58):
Else, exactly the exactly I remember, and our thesis was
a little difference. We were feeling this kind of shift
into a creator economy where the storyteller was starting to
become louder and louder, and when you were talking about
movies or television, you were not talking about the necessarily
(06:20):
the movie star that was driving it, but the person
behind the camera or the person who put the words
on the page. That was interesting because it was the
first time for us that we had ever started thinking
that way or hearing about it that way.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
And that was interesting.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
You know, when you grow up, you know outside of
the business you can name movie stars, you can't always
name directors or writers, right, And that was interesting to
us because that's where we started, It's what we love,
and we started thinking about it.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
That made sense.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
So earlier this year the agency went through really the
biggest transition since it had started, with a founding partner,
Phil Weinstein, departing, and so I'm curious as how that
affected the tone and the culture of the company moving forward,
and how you operated as an agency for the rest
of the year.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
We part of ways as it was announced.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
We settled ambiqably pretty quickly, and we're really excited about
our mentorship management style that were really focused on, Liz,
you want to talk more about that.
Speaker 7 (07:27):
Of course, we went into twenty twenty four knowing we
were going to be focusing on three main buckets, growth, diversification,
and culture.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (07:37):
Growth was further investment into the businesses we're already in.
Diversification means an expansion of our focus and the business
lines to get into. And culture was how do you
grow a company that's culture driven without losing the culture.
So we realized that if we structured our leadership in
(07:57):
such a way that no one has so many direct
reports that someone gets lost in the woods, we could
double down in our belief that a happy workforce is
an effective workforce and when you bring out the best in.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Someone, they do their best. Can you level set for
us how many agents? Roughly how many clients? Right now?
Speaker 7 (08:20):
We have sixty agents and executives, a lot of clients
and we're looking for more.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
You also have an entire executive suite of women across
HR Legal.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Business Affairs comms. How did that come together?
Speaker 7 (08:35):
It was one of the most fun recruiting years we've
ever had, knowing that twenty twenty four was going to
be the year let's double down and truly invest in
what does this company look like when it's on a
growth trajectory. And we looked for experts and they happen
to all be women. But we have a new head
(08:56):
of people who might be the most dedicated to culture
I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Name is Elizabeth Jacobs.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
Like me, not from Hollywood, she came from hospitality. We
have a head of we have a general counsel in
Jennifer Jones, who is very familiar with Hollywood but also
things outside the box in such a way that it
keeps us on our most excited toes. We've had a
finance and Anika Dalton, who definitely didn't come from Hollywood,
(09:31):
and that is for the better because we know how
to count our beans.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
She can sniff out that Hollywood accounting, she absolutely can.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
But it was really it wasn't on purpose, but it
was deliberate. The way we hire here at any level
is fit matters above all else, and so I don't
know that we've ever hired someone in a vacuum, you know,
where one person meets someone in the world and suddenly
they're an employee. And with this this group of executives,
(10:02):
not only is the company running as smoothly as it's
ever run, but it is a really nice way to
show the company and Hollywood that women in power is
really critical.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
For you to really achieve a year of growth in
a year when by any measure, Hollywood had a real downturn.
You know, we all know the reasons coming out of
the strike, PEAKTV, the bubble finally did. First, how how
have you and your clients been dealing with the downturn
and what have been the kind of what have been
the accelerants that have allowed you to have growth in
(10:35):
a year like this.
Speaker 7 (10:36):
I'd love to tackle the philosophical answer to that. Excellent
something that we tell our younger agents I think it
applies to so much is there is an instinct sometimes.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
To reach for the low hanging fruit.
Speaker 7 (10:51):
That is the jobs that are a plenty, that is
the market that is not yet saturated, that is a
wall street that.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Seems to be coming.
Speaker 7 (11:00):
We say, instead of the low hanging fruit, reach for
the vine, reach for something within arms, reach that's growing.
The low hanging fruit is about to fall, meaning don't
count on it, don't look at that as.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Your business model.
Speaker 7 (11:15):
Look at the nooks and crannies of opportunity that build and.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Build and build, which ties exactly to this idea of
career architecture.
Speaker 7 (11:24):
If you are always looking for what's growing, you don't
need to worry about what's not.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
You don't need to look at the closed windows. There
are open doors.
Speaker 7 (11:34):
And when you have that kind of unbridled optimism, it
means you can have a staff meeting and what you're
focusing on how hard it is out there, or you
can have a staff meeting focusing on what jobs are
around and how we can make our clients the very
best candidates for them.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Now, one thing that stands out about VERB is a
really strong focus on animation across film and television.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
We're just on We're.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
About to approach Sonic, the third film coming out, and
of course other big names like Beyond the Spider Verse.
Why is animation something that VERV has really doubled down on.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Because it's awesome.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Animation was something that captured our imagination and our excitement.
In the early days of Pixar, it was a time
and a place. It was kind of magical place where
stories and characters were being born that we hadn't seen before.
Movies were being made that made us feel differently. They
(12:34):
were they looked differently, they looked different, they felt different,
and most importantly, the writing was so great.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
And it just inspired us. Inspired us.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
You could watch a cartoon and have it speak to
you about some of the biggest challenges in life, and
you would think about it and you would smile and
you feel this energy. So it started this kind of
curiosity for us, this excitement of venturing into a world
where historically it was very much a closed ecosystem. It
(13:09):
kind of existed and you're either part of it or
your worked. And so once again it was the creators,
the writers and the directors who were really satisfied with
their experiences and animation. We love the animation community so much,
and one of the things that fuels it that is
(13:29):
really unique is that it's a community where everybody supports
each other.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Everybody's rooting for each other.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
When you go to a premiere in animation, you sit
in a row with the heads of all the other studios.
That doesn't happen in other mediums and other formats because
they're legitimly rooting for each other. It's a business where
one win is felt by all and it helps create
better business, better opportunity for all of us.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more from
the four partners after the break, and we're back with
more from the leaders of Talent Agency or I can
I ask you about.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The book business in general? You know, the general feeling
is that it's you know that it's it's a bit depressed,
that it's harder. You know, the physical sales are down,
ebooks aren't, as you know, aren't as lucrative for writers.
But I'm hearing you guys are having finding little pockets
of success with with very you know, very very dedicated
things like horror and other things. Can you just kind
(14:32):
of give us a sense of what the book business
where you're seeing the most growth and opportunity there.
Speaker 7 (14:38):
Of course, the interesting thing about books is you can
focus on the fluctuations of sales. He already hear, but
if you look at history, they're pretty micro fluctuations. So
another way to look at it is it's a supremely
stable business. Why because the actual book, the object that
(15:01):
is the book, that is what is selling. It is
the stories that go inside each individual book. That's what's fluctuating, right,
That's what people are constantly trying to perfect marketing and
publicity and getting the readership. But the existence of books
is incredibly stable because the existence of reading, whether you're
(15:24):
reading a hardcover, a kindle, or you're listening to an audiobook,
is unbelievably stable. It's not going anywhere. Why because just
like Hollywood is storytelling. So then you're looking at trends
and then you're looking at what's working today. What's been
really interesting is over the past ten years, a lot
(15:47):
of these celebrity book clubs have popped up, and those
have suddenly become the fast trained to bestseller status, the
fast trained to adaptations, the fast trained to literary acclaim.
But there's a finite number or celebrity book clubs that
can maintain the momentum needed to be relevant.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
So then what happens if you're not chosen?
Speaker 7 (16:09):
Okay, twenty twenty entered book talk enter Suddenly this democratized
version of marketing in which anyone can hold up a
book they've loved and people pay attention.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
That comes years after.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
A lot of very smart authors discovered self publishing was
a perfectly appropriate way to have a lucrative publishing career.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
Right.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
So book Talk opened up two things. It opened up
a lot of the self publishing market. It also opened
up a lot of the genre. And what we found
is that increasingly you can have a book get published
that didn't get the accolades of a book club pick
or a Target pick, or an airport pick or all picks,
but that book can still do incredibly well.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
An editor friend of mine and I, because we have a.
Speaker 7 (16:58):
Number of authors of her who really benefited from this model,
we said, gosh, this feels like two thousand and eight publishing,
you know, back when there was something called a mid list,
which of course has been gone since the books came around. Really,
but we try here because all of our.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Publishing agents at this point are generalists. We all know.
Speaker 7 (17:18):
How to love and sell every kind of book, and
we hang our hat on that because we want to
always be relevant, which means we have to be nimble
in what we're paying attention to, but at the same
time don't get too carried away with trends. Yes, hooorror
is huge. Does that mean that we should have an
entire team of people focused only on horror?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
No, it does not.
Speaker 7 (17:41):
It means we should have an entire team of people
focused on the authors and the books that they love.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Because, going back to.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
The beginning of the stability of the industry, trends last
two to four years.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Books take two to four years to be published. If
you chase trends, you are behind before you've even started.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
I know you also are very proud of a project
like we used to live here, which really has allowed
a new channel to open up for authors who have
traditionally been left out of this sort of gate kept
approach to publishing that we've seen for so many years.
Can you speak to that project and landing pretty massive
(18:19):
talent on it as well?
Speaker 7 (18:22):
Of course, Marcus Kleeb was the second Reddit story to
come our way, So I, as the book person, would
be nowhere without Adam Leving and David Boxerbom because the
only reason I even got to participate in this cool
world is because I happened to join a feature leading
(18:42):
the day that.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Adam and David were selling the first story.
Speaker 7 (18:47):
Something important to note is fiction, for the most part,
sells on the full manuscript to editors. Editors don't typically
buy partial manuscripts, and they certainly don't.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Buy short stories. But what is Patnam to a fiction
editor voice? What does Marcus leamer Path voice?
Speaker 7 (19:06):
It was when Adam Levine and David Boxerbaum took this
story We Used to Live Here, got Blake Lively attached
to produce a star, sold it to Netflix and an
outright purchase that I was fortunate enough to take the
story and know that there were a select group of
editors who would consider buying a novel on a partial.
(19:29):
So far, he's in a three book contract. He's had
his first book in We Used to Live Here come out.
He adapted it from a forty page story to a
three hundred and fifty page story, and it took off
on book Talk was published in July. It sold over
one hundred and fifty thousand copies already, and he is
able to experience his dream, which is living the life
(19:51):
of an author full time. He continues to write stories,
we continue to package them up, and it's been a really, really.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
The exciting thing to watch. As we're talking, I'm really
sensing that the diversification of your business. Is it fair
to say that TV and film is still the bulk
of it or are you really quite diversified into other
areas now.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
When we started the agency, I think, as Brian mentioned,
we were primarily literary for the first ten years, and
obviously it was important to diversify on behalf of the clients,
who you know, demanded more and we wanted to demand
more of ourselves, and so we eventually got into talent,
and eventually got into publishing, and we eventually got into
(20:36):
you know, alternative television and unscripted and podcasting and theater
and everything else.
Speaker 9 (20:42):
That you possibly could imagine.
Speaker 10 (20:45):
We embraced all of it. And part of the secret
sauce of this place is sort of the integration of
all teams and sort of that one idea, as we
just mentioned, Marcus Leeber can live in ultimately in different
areas and be monetized in different areas, and I think
that that's really kind of what has set us apart.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well.
Speaker 10 (21:05):
Everyone says they have all their departments, we have teams
here at RV. We really are seamless in terms of
how we can monetize and really work together on any
given piece. Of literature or however, you know, however we
can monetize that ip again, I think it's still we
still sort of come back to the florals.
Speaker 9 (21:26):
Of we are a place that has always rested on
the written word.
Speaker 10 (21:29):
We will always be a place that will rest on
the written word. I think it sort of helps us
to understand when controlling material and content really on how
to build it successfully for any medium that makes the
most sense. The good news is now we have multiple
mediums in which to play in.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Obviously, a big change for the agency business in the
last couple of years has been the sunset of television packaging,
film packaging, but primarily television packaging, which was a huge
source of profits for agencies for decades. And I'm sure
there was a part of you like, oh great, it
goes away. We launch agency and it goes away. But
my question for you is, how have you seen the
(22:08):
marketplace react with keep packaging going away?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Are you seeing?
Speaker 9 (22:13):
You know?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
The one of the reasons why writers banded together and
and you know, forced the guild forced companies to kind
of sunset it was they felt that there were some
abuses that at times packaging would encourage people to encourage
certain writers to be on a show because they were
at the same agency, not because they were right for
the for the project.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
You all know this.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
My question for you is what is the marketplace post
packaging are you seeing? Is there less pressure to shove
certain people into projects? Is there more money in the
system because the studios aren't paying those fees? Very curious
sort of what the what the impact is a couple
of years in, now that it has sunseted for new projects,
I can start the two areas.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
To focus on with that question. Well, you are seeing
a lot of the legacy agencies deal with a huge
downturn in economics with a loss of packaging one of
the exciting things, one of the call it lucky, call
it whatever you want. But our agency, which is almost
(23:20):
fifteen years old, was born in a time and is
a reflection of these changes in the creator economy in
our industry. I think it's been incredibly difficult for legacy
agencies who built their businesses on a model that doesn't
exist anymore. So we have this luxury of these are
(23:45):
the cards we were dealt, and we have been able
to be nimble and agile and be able to have
our business be reflective and informed by the time and
the place. We're not trying to course correct.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
We're moving forward with speed and excitement. As far as
how it's affecting.
Speaker 6 (24:06):
The industry today and tomorrow, I think it's really fascinating.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I think it's messy. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
I think it requires a lot of thought and analysis,
and everyone's trying to figure it out. The thing that
we have enjoyed and our clients have enjoyed is it's
broken up any kind of monopolistic control of the business.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Right so we are.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
It's kind of equalized the playing fields, and we're seeing
that with the way that televin shows are coming together,
the way movies are coming together in an exciting way
that feels more organic than it used to when it
was Frankenstein together because of a brand or a label.
So we're really excited about where it is today and
where it's headed. Are the shows better? Are the movies better?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Because of this? I think you could be the judge
of that. But it's an exciting time and we're feel
really privileged to be in it.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I growth, Brian, we've definitely had the good fortune of
bad timing. If you look at when we started the
agency where it started off as really a feature lit agency,
and the TV team that started to grow just as
we were spreading our wings on the television side.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
That's when packaging came to an end.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
And it was a really easy decision for us to
sign the Code of Conduct because even though we may
have been feeling pressure from other agencies that were ready
to hold out, we did what we always do, which
is go ask the clients, Hey, what do you want,
and they told us we wanted to sign the Code
of Conduct. So it was an easy decision for us.
Making movies, making TV shows, it's an all hands on deck.
(25:38):
It takes a village and you need to work with
your partners and other agencies, and the pressure that's been
removed from that rivalry of fighting over the package certainly
make things easier. The area where that is probably the
most felt in terms of the removal of the packaging fee,
it's an agencies and that's why for us to get
into television lit and then shortly thereafter have the limination
(26:00):
of packaging fees, it didn't really affect our bottom line
as much as the data others. For us to get
into the talent business and we're starting to see back
ends for actors slowly diminish. It didn't affect us as
much as it has others. Right now, we're in a
growth mindset. We're hiring, we run a profitable business. We're
not trying to focus on antiquated models of how it
is that you monetize content. For us, it's all forward thinking.
(26:23):
The ten percent business has been a great business for us.
There is no question that it is a complicated time
in the entertainment industry, all the things that you were
talking about before. When you look part of the reason
why data is so important is because you use it
for a predictive model for the future. Let's look at
the last five years in the entertainment industry and what's happened.
You had the WGA walkout against the agencies, You had
(26:47):
a pandemic, you had a double strike. You also had
the great Netflix correction in the April of twenty two,
which changed the business model of all of our studio
partners where they're all in the middle of an arms
race for content.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And don't forget Disney buying Fox, which is another earthquake.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Let's twenty seventy one don dollar acquisition and what it's
led to is where we are right now and where
are we right now? If you walk into any studio,
film or television and asking three fundamental questions, what are
you making, how much are you making it for, and
how are you distributing it? The answers are not as
clear as they were in twenty nineteen. And what does
(27:24):
that mean. It means that they need more data, and
what does that mean? They need to try things out.
So over the next couple of years, we need to
see what it's going to look like. People are going
to make more things, people are going to make less things.
People are going to try different models, They're going to
try different distributions, They're going to try certain instances where
they all of these things theatrically, certain things on streaming,
and once they have enough data, they can then start
(27:45):
making the predictive model of saying here's what we're making,
here's how much we're making it for, and here's how
we're going to distribute it.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
So we're on the representative.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Side, we are grateful that we don't have to come
up with the answers to those questions. But what we
need to do is we need to figure out how
now it is that we can be the best partners
to our clients and make sure that we understand how
to navigate these uncertain waters to make sure that they're
delivering in that instance. Maybe it's because we're naive, but
we firmly believe that quality is the best business model
(28:14):
as an agent.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
What do you need?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
You need exoskeleton of cynicism. You need to look around
the landscape and realize, wait a second, how am I
getting screwed here?
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Underneath that, you need to be an.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Unbroadled optimist where you can say, what's the best version
of these things?
Speaker 4 (28:30):
How do we all win?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
And right now it feels like we have a lot
more wins and because of that, we're super proud of
where we are and we're having a great time.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
You've all talked about growth. You're in growth mode. How
let me I mean, just are you bringing Do you
have outside investors or do you have people that are
you know, supporting the agency? Are you doing an unorganic
cash flow?
Speaker 6 (28:55):
Great question, It's a question that asked all the time
because people are surprised by the answer.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
The answer is, we are an independent agency. We don't
have financial partners. We built the agency on the people
within the walls.
Speaker 6 (29:10):
Over the last fourteen years, there have been constant knocks
on our door, but we've always celebrated our independence.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Our independence has given.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Us, has fortified this kind of entrepreneurial spirit that we love.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
It's been really helpful for our success. It's also given
us a.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
Client first approach. And client first approach was one of
the early central thesis. I know everybody says that now,
but it was we came from a place where it
felt like we were the agency was the bigger than
the clients were, and it felt kind of backwards. So day,
one hour, one minute, one and every day since it's
been about a client first approach. Having independence guarantees us that,
(29:59):
and so really excited to be on our road and
our path and it's not defined by anybody else.
Speaker 9 (30:05):
We were very fortunate to be able to build this
brick by brick, and we were very fortunate to build
it with the right people who sort of joined our
little revolution.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Along the way.
Speaker 9 (30:16):
And whether it was you know, Sean Gruman coming over
to start our talent team, because he looked at us
and said, hey, you.
Speaker 10 (30:24):
Guys are doing something over there, and this is where
I think the future is a representation, or whether it
was Liz Parker starting our IP and book publishing team,
or whether it was Andy Stabile coming over and really
sort of fortifying our initiative in alternatives and in unscripted
and we can continue to look at that and go,
(30:46):
we just invest in the right people, but also they've
invested in us.
Speaker 9 (30:50):
And looking at kind of.
Speaker 10 (30:51):
What it is that we're doing and saying, hey, you
guys have something special going on here. Whether it's the
culture or the belief in the clients and how we
sort of go about the things, it all sort of
kind of comes down to that. We also take a very,
as Liz mentioned earlier, a mentorship approach right in everything
that we do. And so whether it's mentorship for our
young colleagues okay, to become better agents, or whether it's
(31:15):
the belief in our clients wholeheartedly and passionately getting behind
them with.
Speaker 9 (31:20):
Sort of everything that we do. That has sort of
been our special sauce, and that's kind of been a
little bit of the understanding of where it.
Speaker 10 (31:27):
Is that has been successful for us for the last
fourteen years. What will continue to sort of be the
DNA of who we are and how we move forward
and if we you know, and because of that independence,
we have allowed ourselves to be able to sort of
continue to just look at the clients and go. We
have the time and the nurturing to be able to
sort of help everybody get to where.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
They want to be.
Speaker 9 (31:49):
If not, we'll die try it. You asked a question
what keeps us up at that?
Speaker 7 (31:53):
Yet?
Speaker 9 (31:54):
I'm sure each one of us will have a different answer.
I'll give you my two. One is there is so
much content on right now. Is trying to keep up
with everything and trying to read everything.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I want more hours in every day.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
Reading and consuming content is our currency and allows us
to be the experts or trying to be the experts
as we are, as we continue to guide our clients
as things sort of things move forward.
Speaker 10 (32:21):
So being able to be on top of you know,
the market in the way that we used to, especially
now having you know, kids and lives and running a
company and all of that kind of stuff, it's been
a challenge, but it's one that we continue to commit to.
I used to be able as an assistant reach twenty
a week. I'm now down to tech, but it's still
(32:41):
tents and that is you know, it's not easy.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
That's one.
Speaker 9 (32:46):
The second thing, and I think Liz mentioned earlier the
incredible culture that we continue to believe in here. Can
we maintain that at scale, and that's going to be
something that will be an ongoing challenge, but something that
we want to remain both intentional at is to making
sure that we create the best environment for the people
(33:09):
to work here and learn and be able to grow.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Can I tell you what helps us sleep at night? Y?
Speaker 6 (33:14):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Our decision making process. Our decision making process helps us
sleep at night. When you look at the people in
this room, Liz Parker is somebody who has an incredibly
high IQ and an even higher EQ where she understands
the business, understands people, and understands the intersection of the
(33:35):
different businesses and how it is they all come together
as a cohesive unit. When you look at someone like
Brian Besser, Brian Besser speaks artists, and he connects with
the clients from a place of artistic integrity, and that
manifests itself literally through the halls of Verve as he
helped design the office. When you look at somebody like
(33:55):
Adam Levine, Adam Levine loves money and.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Loves loves money.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
He's one of the best deal makers I've ever seen,
and I often find myself in his office asking for
perspective and appreciating it. And he also has the biggest heart.
Speaker 9 (34:11):
We've always been and we will always continue to be
a police for a company. And whether that is something
that we learned early on that I think we continue
to strive for every day is listening and.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Hastening two ears and one mouth for a reason, right right.
Speaker 11 (34:26):
And listening is whether that is from a client perspective,
from the community, from the international community, or from the
mailroom or the staff.
Speaker 10 (34:39):
Whoever has the best idea waits And it's really something
that we really sort of thrive on, is listening and
then being able to interpret that into action.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Liz, anything you'd like to button us up with ever,
we believe everything is fixable. I love that. I would
like to extrapolate that model to other things in our
world right now. But seriously, thank you all for a
really candid conversation. Yeah, we appreciate it. Thank you so
much for taking the time. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Thanks for listening to our last episode of twenty twenty four.
We've had some of our best episodes yet This year,
we'll get to work on a twenty twenty four Highlights episode,
and please keep your eye on your strictly business feed
because we have big plans to grow our footprint in
twenty twenty five. Thank you, dear listeners. Wishing everyone good health,
(35:30):
prosperity and peace for the new year.
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety. Today my
guests are Liz Parker, Brian Besser, Adam Levine, and Adam Weinstein,
all partners at talent agency VERB. VERV is about to
(00:28):
market its fifteenth anniversary in business next year, and it's
been quite a fifteen years for the company, for the
industry and for the world. And we get into all
of it, how an independent agency of size stays in business,
What the end of packaging deals has meant to the
bottom line, what the pressure on talent deals in the
overall industry squeeze is doing to the creative community. And
(00:51):
we don't shy away from the big internal transition that
happened for VERB last February when founding partner Bill Weinstein
exited and wound up relocating at Paradigm. It's a candid
talk with four season deal makers. I was really happy
to be joined on this interview by Katzy Stephen, Variety's
film and media reporter, who gamely took on the talent
(01:13):
agency beat.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
For us this year.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
A great discussion about the nitty gritty of making money
with content is coming up right after this break, and
we're back with a free, willing conversation about talent representation
(01:35):
with verb partners Liz Parker, Brian Besser, Adam Levine, and
Adam Weinstein. Because we have four guests on this episode,
we'll let the four quickly introduce themselves, and then Katsy
takes it away with our first question.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Hi, I'm Liz Parker.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Hi, I'm Adam Weinstein.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Hi, I'm Adam Levin, I'm Brian Besser.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
What do you see as the biggest wins of this
year that you're proudest of.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
One of the ways that you measure up an agency
is through cultural impact and when you look and see
how the work that it's doing, how it permeates through
the consumer world. And it's funny where there was a
Monday morning this summer where I was before the staff meeting,
and I was sitting at my desk and I was
booking a flight to go to New York for the
(02:21):
premiere of our client share on his new TV show
and fight Lin Shay's career has really taken off in
the tip of the cap to our colleagues Chase Northington
and Roberto Markets. He's done an amazing job with him.
And as soon as I hit booked a walk into
the staff meeting which is being led a colleague, Chrissenriega,
and it's Monday morning staff meeting, which is my favorite meeting.
And in the meeting, he kicks it off by saying
(02:41):
it is an awesome, awesome week, and he reminds every
moment that verb has the number one movie in America,
which is co written by a clients. Well, it's Deadpole
versus Wolverine characters which are created by a client, Robinlie Film.
And we have the number one movie or the number
one TV show in streaming, which is a house of writing.
Our client, Sarah has the number two. She's phenomenal talent.
(03:04):
And then as soon as the staff meeting is over,
I walk back into the offices of our colleagues Manilhamad
and Felish Prince as they're working on creating a record
setting deal for Sarah as the number two to continue
those efforts. So it would just be just feeling that
it made us feel alive that here we were really
stacking up and that our work had great culture of impactors, awesome,
(03:25):
awesome feeling.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
It actually is the thesis for her, which is storytelling
can come and live in any direction, on any format,
in any space. And historically people you were a television writer,
you were a feature writer, you wrote books, you had
a label, and what we started the agency the idea
(03:48):
was maybe you could be a storyteller, period and we
could together figure out where the story lives. And it
was a terrifying premise because it's easier to have a
specific direction out of the gate, this is what we're doing,
this is how we're doing it.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
We wanted to do it differently because we knew that
our clients wanted.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
To tell stories and explore different formats, different platforms, different directions.
So when Bird was born, it was simply a conference
room where we settle our clients. We heard their ideas,
we heard their concepts, and we hear the themes they
wanted to explore and the characters they love, and then
we'd sit there and figure out like where does that live,
(04:30):
Where does that live? Where does that character get to
be explored deeper more extensively than anywhere else, Or maybe
you don't want to do it that way, so maybe
we do it this way. So it was a really fun,
exciting approach, which was very different from where we came
and it's kind of been the genesis of everything we
do here.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What was it about the marketplace in twenty ten? Which
seems like an eternity ago, right, My goodness, we were
two years into Obama.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
We didn't know how.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Good we have. Uh, I'm going to leave that in.
What was it about the marketplace in twenty ten? That
kind of made you see the emerging world? For that
the writers were going to be you know, I've always
been important, but they were going to be even more
you know, entrepreneurial, and so much was going to spring
(05:21):
from that. Was there something at that time around the
formation of the agency where you where you could see
things were going? I mean, Hulu was out there, Netflix
was still mostly sending out red envelopes, like what was there?
Was there stuff percolating out there that you saw at
that time?
Speaker 6 (05:36):
Absolutely the one of the biggest things that we and remember,
everything is kind of a guess, right, it's an informed opinion,
and you hope you're right, you're not always.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
But one of the things that really motivated.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
It was the business ever since we were in it
was a movie star driven business.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Right, it was defined by movie stars.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
There were movie stars and then there were everything.
Speaker 6 (05:58):
Else, exactly the exactly I remember, and our thesis was
a little difference. We were feeling this kind of shift
into a creator economy where the storyteller was starting to
become louder and louder, and when you were talking about
movies or television, you were not talking about the necessarily
(06:20):
the movie star that was driving it, but the person
behind the camera or the person who put the words
on the page. That was interesting because it was the
first time for us that we had ever started thinking
that way or hearing about it that way.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
And that was interesting.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
You know, when you grow up, you know outside of
the business you can name movie stars, you can't always
name directors or writers, right, And that was interesting to
us because that's where we started, It's what we love,
and we started thinking about it.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
That made sense.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
So earlier this year the agency went through really the
biggest transition since it had started, with a founding partner,
Phil Weinstein, departing, and so I'm curious as how that
affected the tone and the culture of the company moving forward,
and how you operated as an agency for the rest
of the year.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
We part of ways as it was announced.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
We settled ambiqably pretty quickly, and we're really excited about
our mentorship management style that were really focused on, Liz,
you want to talk more about that.
Speaker 7 (07:27):
Of course, we went into twenty twenty four knowing we
were going to be focusing on three main buckets, growth, diversification,
and culture.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (07:37):
Growth was further investment into the businesses we're already in.
Diversification means an expansion of our focus and the business
lines to get into. And culture was how do you
grow a company that's culture driven without losing the culture.
So we realized that if we structured our leadership in
(07:57):
such a way that no one has so many direct
reports that someone gets lost in the woods, we could
double down in our belief that a happy workforce is
an effective workforce and when you bring out the best in.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Someone, they do their best. Can you level set for
us how many agents? Roughly how many clients? Right now?
Speaker 7 (08:20):
We have sixty agents and executives, a lot of clients
and we're looking for more.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
You also have an entire executive suite of women across
HR Legal.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Business Affairs comms. How did that come together?
Speaker 7 (08:35):
It was one of the most fun recruiting years we've
ever had, knowing that twenty twenty four was going to
be the year let's double down and truly invest in
what does this company look like when it's on a
growth trajectory. And we looked for experts and they happen
to all be women. But we have a new head
(08:56):
of people who might be the most dedicated to culture
I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Name is Elizabeth Jacobs.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
Like me, not from Hollywood, she came from hospitality. We
have a head of we have a general counsel in
Jennifer Jones, who is very familiar with Hollywood but also
things outside the box in such a way that it
keeps us on our most excited toes. We've had a
finance and Anika Dalton, who definitely didn't come from Hollywood,
(09:31):
and that is for the better because we know how
to count our beans.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
She can sniff out that Hollywood accounting, she absolutely can.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
But it was really it wasn't on purpose, but it
was deliberate. The way we hire here at any level
is fit matters above all else, and so I don't
know that we've ever hired someone in a vacuum, you know,
where one person meets someone in the world and suddenly
they're an employee. And with this this group of executives,
(10:02):
not only is the company running as smoothly as it's
ever run, but it is a really nice way to
show the company and Hollywood that women in power is
really critical.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
For you to really achieve a year of growth in
a year when by any measure, Hollywood had a real downturn.
You know, we all know the reasons coming out of
the strike, PEAKTV, the bubble finally did. First, how how
have you and your clients been dealing with the downturn
and what have been the kind of what have been
the accelerants that have allowed you to have growth in
(10:35):
a year like this.
Speaker 7 (10:36):
I'd love to tackle the philosophical answer to that. Excellent
something that we tell our younger agents I think it
applies to so much is there is an instinct sometimes.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
To reach for the low hanging fruit.
Speaker 7 (10:51):
That is the jobs that are a plenty, that is
the market that is not yet saturated, that is a
wall street that.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Seems to be coming.
Speaker 7 (11:00):
We say, instead of the low hanging fruit, reach for
the vine, reach for something within arms, reach that's growing.
The low hanging fruit is about to fall, meaning don't
count on it, don't look at that as.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Your business model.
Speaker 7 (11:15):
Look at the nooks and crannies of opportunity that build and.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Build and build, which ties exactly to this idea of
career architecture.
Speaker 7 (11:24):
If you are always looking for what's growing, you don't
need to worry about what's not.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
You don't need to look at the closed windows. There
are open doors.
Speaker 7 (11:34):
And when you have that kind of unbridled optimism, it
means you can have a staff meeting and what you're
focusing on how hard it is out there, or you
can have a staff meeting focusing on what jobs are
around and how we can make our clients the very
best candidates for them.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Now, one thing that stands out about VERB is a
really strong focus on animation across film and television.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
We're just on We're.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
About to approach Sonic, the third film coming out, and
of course other big names like Beyond the Spider Verse.
Why is animation something that VERV has really doubled down on.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Because it's awesome.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Animation was something that captured our imagination and our excitement.
In the early days of Pixar, it was a time
and a place. It was kind of magical place where
stories and characters were being born that we hadn't seen before.
Movies were being made that made us feel differently. They
(12:34):
were they looked differently, they looked different, they felt different,
and most importantly, the writing was so great.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
And it just inspired us. Inspired us.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
You could watch a cartoon and have it speak to
you about some of the biggest challenges in life, and
you would think about it and you would smile and
you feel this energy. So it started this kind of
curiosity for us, this excitement of venturing into a world
where historically it was very much a closed ecosystem. It
(13:09):
kind of existed and you're either part of it or
your worked. And so once again it was the creators,
the writers and the directors who were really satisfied with
their experiences and animation. We love the animation community so much,
and one of the things that fuels it that is
(13:29):
really unique is that it's a community where everybody supports
each other.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Everybody's rooting for each other.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
When you go to a premiere in animation, you sit
in a row with the heads of all the other studios.
That doesn't happen in other mediums and other formats because
they're legitimly rooting for each other. It's a business where
one win is felt by all and it helps create
better business, better opportunity for all of us.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more from
the four partners after the break, and we're back with
more from the leaders of Talent Agency or I can
I ask you about.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The book business in general? You know, the general feeling
is that it's you know that it's it's a bit depressed,
that it's harder. You know, the physical sales are down,
ebooks aren't, as you know, aren't as lucrative for writers.
But I'm hearing you guys are having finding little pockets
of success with with very you know, very very dedicated
things like horror and other things. Can you just kind
(14:32):
of give us a sense of what the book business
where you're seeing the most growth and opportunity there.
Speaker 7 (14:38):
Of course, the interesting thing about books is you can
focus on the fluctuations of sales. He already hear, but
if you look at history, they're pretty micro fluctuations. So
another way to look at it is it's a supremely
stable business. Why because the actual book, the object that
(15:01):
is the book, that is what is selling. It is
the stories that go inside each individual book. That's what's fluctuating, right,
That's what people are constantly trying to perfect marketing and
publicity and getting the readership. But the existence of books
is incredibly stable because the existence of reading, whether you're
(15:24):
reading a hardcover, a kindle, or you're listening to an audiobook,
is unbelievably stable. It's not going anywhere. Why because just
like Hollywood is storytelling. So then you're looking at trends
and then you're looking at what's working today. What's been
really interesting is over the past ten years, a lot
(15:47):
of these celebrity book clubs have popped up, and those
have suddenly become the fast trained to bestseller status, the
fast trained to adaptations, the fast trained to literary acclaim.
But there's a finite number or celebrity book clubs that
can maintain the momentum needed to be relevant.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
So then what happens if you're not chosen?
Speaker 7 (16:09):
Okay, twenty twenty entered book talk enter Suddenly this democratized
version of marketing in which anyone can hold up a
book they've loved and people pay attention.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
That comes years after.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
A lot of very smart authors discovered self publishing was
a perfectly appropriate way to have a lucrative publishing career.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
Right.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
So book Talk opened up two things. It opened up
a lot of the self publishing market. It also opened
up a lot of the genre. And what we found
is that increasingly you can have a book get published
that didn't get the accolades of a book club pick
or a Target pick, or an airport pick or all picks,
but that book can still do incredibly well.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
An editor friend of mine and I, because we have a.
Speaker 7 (16:58):
Number of authors of her who really benefited from this model,
we said, gosh, this feels like two thousand and eight publishing,
you know, back when there was something called a mid list,
which of course has been gone since the books came around. Really,
but we try here because all of our.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Publishing agents at this point are generalists. We all know.
Speaker 7 (17:18):
How to love and sell every kind of book, and
we hang our hat on that because we want to
always be relevant, which means we have to be nimble
in what we're paying attention to, but at the same
time don't get too carried away with trends. Yes, hooorror
is huge. Does that mean that we should have an
entire team of people focused only on horror?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
No, it does not.
Speaker 7 (17:41):
It means we should have an entire team of people
focused on the authors and the books that they love.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Because, going back to.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
The beginning of the stability of the industry, trends last
two to four years.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Books take two to four years to be published. If
you chase trends, you are behind before you've even started.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
I know you also are very proud of a project
like we used to live here, which really has allowed
a new channel to open up for authors who have
traditionally been left out of this sort of gate kept
approach to publishing that we've seen for so many years.
Can you speak to that project and landing pretty massive
(18:19):
talent on it as well?
Speaker 7 (18:22):
Of course, Marcus Kleeb was the second Reddit story to
come our way, So I, as the book person, would
be nowhere without Adam Leving and David Boxerbom because the
only reason I even got to participate in this cool
world is because I happened to join a feature leading
(18:42):
the day that.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Adam and David were selling the first story.
Speaker 7 (18:47):
Something important to note is fiction, for the most part,
sells on the full manuscript to editors. Editors don't typically
buy partial manuscripts, and they certainly don't.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Buy short stories. But what is Patnam to a fiction
editor voice? What does Marcus leamer Path voice?
Speaker 7 (19:06):
It was when Adam Levine and David Boxerbaum took this
story We Used to Live Here, got Blake Lively attached
to produce a star, sold it to Netflix and an
outright purchase that I was fortunate enough to take the
story and know that there were a select group of
editors who would consider buying a novel on a partial.
(19:29):
So far, he's in a three book contract. He's had
his first book in We Used to Live Here come out.
He adapted it from a forty page story to a
three hundred and fifty page story, and it took off
on book Talk was published in July. It sold over
one hundred and fifty thousand copies already, and he is
able to experience his dream, which is living the life
(19:51):
of an author full time. He continues to write stories,
we continue to package them up, and it's been a really, really.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
The exciting thing to watch. As we're talking, I'm really
sensing that the diversification of your business. Is it fair
to say that TV and film is still the bulk
of it or are you really quite diversified into other
areas now.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
When we started the agency, I think, as Brian mentioned,
we were primarily literary for the first ten years, and
obviously it was important to diversify on behalf of the clients,
who you know, demanded more and we wanted to demand
more of ourselves, and so we eventually got into talent,
and eventually got into publishing, and we eventually got into
(20:36):
you know, alternative television and unscripted and podcasting and theater
and everything else.
Speaker 9 (20:42):
That you possibly could imagine.
Speaker 10 (20:45):
We embraced all of it. And part of the secret
sauce of this place is sort of the integration of
all teams and sort of that one idea, as we
just mentioned, Marcus Leeber can live in ultimately in different
areas and be monetized in different areas, and I think
that that's really kind of what has set us apart.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well.
Speaker 10 (21:05):
Everyone says they have all their departments, we have teams
here at RV. We really are seamless in terms of
how we can monetize and really work together on any
given piece. Of literature or however, you know, however we
can monetize that ip again, I think it's still we
still sort of come back to the florals.
Speaker 9 (21:26):
Of we are a place that has always rested on
the written word.
Speaker 10 (21:29):
We will always be a place that will rest on
the written word. I think it sort of helps us
to understand when controlling material and content really on how
to build it successfully for any medium that makes the
most sense. The good news is now we have multiple
mediums in which to play in.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Obviously, a big change for the agency business in the
last couple of years has been the sunset of television packaging,
film packaging, but primarily television packaging, which was a huge
source of profits for agencies for decades. And I'm sure
there was a part of you like, oh great, it
goes away. We launch agency and it goes away. But
my question for you is, how have you seen the
(22:08):
marketplace react with keep packaging going away?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Are you seeing?
Speaker 9 (22:13):
You know?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
The one of the reasons why writers banded together and
and you know, forced the guild forced companies to kind
of sunset it was they felt that there were some
abuses that at times packaging would encourage people to encourage
certain writers to be on a show because they were
at the same agency, not because they were right for
the for the project.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
You all know this.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
My question for you is what is the marketplace post
packaging are you seeing? Is there less pressure to shove
certain people into projects? Is there more money in the
system because the studios aren't paying those fees? Very curious
sort of what the what the impact is a couple
of years in, now that it has sunseted for new projects,
I can start the two areas.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
To focus on with that question. Well, you are seeing
a lot of the legacy agencies deal with a huge
downturn in economics with a loss of packaging one of
the exciting things, one of the call it lucky, call
it whatever you want. But our agency, which is almost
(23:20):
fifteen years old, was born in a time and is
a reflection of these changes in the creator economy in
our industry. I think it's been incredibly difficult for legacy
agencies who built their businesses on a model that doesn't
exist anymore. So we have this luxury of these are
(23:45):
the cards we were dealt, and we have been able
to be nimble and agile and be able to have
our business be reflective and informed by the time and
the place. We're not trying to course correct.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
We're moving forward with speed and excitement. As far as
how it's affecting.
Speaker 6 (24:06):
The industry today and tomorrow, I think it's really fascinating.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I think it's messy. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
I think it requires a lot of thought and analysis,
and everyone's trying to figure it out. The thing that
we have enjoyed and our clients have enjoyed is it's
broken up any kind of monopolistic control of the business.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Right so we are.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
It's kind of equalized the playing fields, and we're seeing
that with the way that televin shows are coming together,
the way movies are coming together in an exciting way
that feels more organic than it used to when it
was Frankenstein together because of a brand or a label.
So we're really excited about where it is today and
where it's headed. Are the shows better? Are the movies better?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Because of this? I think you could be the judge
of that. But it's an exciting time and we're feel
really privileged to be in it.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I growth, Brian, we've definitely had the good fortune of
bad timing. If you look at when we started the
agency where it started off as really a feature lit agency,
and the TV team that started to grow just as
we were spreading our wings on the television side.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
That's when packaging came to an end.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
And it was a really easy decision for us to
sign the Code of Conduct because even though we may
have been feeling pressure from other agencies that were ready
to hold out, we did what we always do, which
is go ask the clients, Hey, what do you want,
and they told us we wanted to sign the Code
of Conduct. So it was an easy decision for us.
Making movies, making TV shows, it's an all hands on deck.
(25:38):
It takes a village and you need to work with
your partners and other agencies, and the pressure that's been
removed from that rivalry of fighting over the package certainly
make things easier. The area where that is probably the
most felt in terms of the removal of the packaging fee,
it's an agencies and that's why for us to get
into television lit and then shortly thereafter have the limination
(26:00):
of packaging fees, it didn't really affect our bottom line
as much as the data others. For us to get
into the talent business and we're starting to see back
ends for actors slowly diminish. It didn't affect us as
much as it has others. Right now, we're in a
growth mindset. We're hiring, we run a profitable business. We're
not trying to focus on antiquated models of how it
is that you monetize content. For us, it's all forward thinking.
(26:23):
The ten percent business has been a great business for us.
There is no question that it is a complicated time
in the entertainment industry, all the things that you were
talking about before. When you look part of the reason
why data is so important is because you use it
for a predictive model for the future. Let's look at
the last five years in the entertainment industry and what's happened.
You had the WGA walkout against the agencies, You had
(26:47):
a pandemic, you had a double strike. You also had
the great Netflix correction in the April of twenty two,
which changed the business model of all of our studio
partners where they're all in the middle of an arms
race for content.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And don't forget Disney buying Fox, which is another earthquake.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Let's twenty seventy one don dollar acquisition and what it's
led to is where we are right now and where
are we right now? If you walk into any studio,
film or television and asking three fundamental questions, what are
you making, how much are you making it for, and
how are you distributing it? The answers are not as
clear as they were in twenty nineteen. And what does
(27:24):
that mean. It means that they need more data, and
what does that mean? They need to try things out.
So over the next couple of years, we need to
see what it's going to look like. People are going
to make more things, people are going to make less things.
People are going to try different models, They're going to
try different distributions, They're going to try certain instances where
they all of these things theatrically, certain things on streaming,
and once they have enough data, they can then start
(27:45):
making the predictive model of saying here's what we're making,
here's how much we're making it for, and here's how
we're going to distribute it.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
So we're on the representative.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Side, we are grateful that we don't have to come
up with the answers to those questions. But what we
need to do is we need to figure out how
now it is that we can be the best partners
to our clients and make sure that we understand how
to navigate these uncertain waters to make sure that they're
delivering in that instance. Maybe it's because we're naive, but
we firmly believe that quality is the best business model
(28:14):
as an agent.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
What do you need?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
You need exoskeleton of cynicism. You need to look around
the landscape and realize, wait a second, how am I
getting screwed here?
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Underneath that, you need to be an.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Unbroadled optimist where you can say, what's the best version
of these things?
Speaker 4 (28:30):
How do we all win?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
And right now it feels like we have a lot
more wins and because of that, we're super proud of
where we are and we're having a great time.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
You've all talked about growth. You're in growth mode. How
let me I mean, just are you bringing Do you
have outside investors or do you have people that are
you know, supporting the agency? Are you doing an unorganic
cash flow?
Speaker 6 (28:55):
Great question, It's a question that asked all the time
because people are surprised by the answer.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
The answer is, we are an independent agency. We don't
have financial partners. We built the agency on the people
within the walls.
Speaker 6 (29:10):
Over the last fourteen years, there have been constant knocks
on our door, but we've always celebrated our independence.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Our independence has given.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Us, has fortified this kind of entrepreneurial spirit that we love.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
It's been really helpful for our success. It's also given
us a.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
Client first approach. And client first approach was one of
the early central thesis. I know everybody says that now,
but it was we came from a place where it
felt like we were the agency was the bigger than
the clients were, and it felt kind of backwards. So day,
one hour, one minute, one and every day since it's
been about a client first approach. Having independence guarantees us that,
(29:59):
and so really excited to be on our road and
our path and it's not defined by anybody else.
Speaker 9 (30:05):
We were very fortunate to be able to build this
brick by brick, and we were very fortunate to build
it with the right people who sort of joined our
little revolution.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Along the way.
Speaker 9 (30:16):
And whether it was you know, Sean Gruman coming over
to start our talent team, because he looked at us
and said, hey, you.
Speaker 10 (30:24):
Guys are doing something over there, and this is where
I think the future is a representation, or whether it
was Liz Parker starting our IP and book publishing team,
or whether it was Andy Stabile coming over and really
sort of fortifying our initiative in alternatives and in unscripted
and we can continue to look at that and go,
(30:46):
we just invest in the right people, but also they've
invested in us.
Speaker 9 (30:50):
And looking at kind of.
Speaker 10 (30:51):
What it is that we're doing and saying, hey, you
guys have something special going on here. Whether it's the
culture or the belief in the clients and how we
sort of go about the things, it all sort of
kind of comes down to that. We also take a very,
as Liz mentioned earlier, a mentorship approach right in everything
that we do. And so whether it's mentorship for our
young colleagues okay, to become better agents, or whether it's
(31:15):
the belief in our clients wholeheartedly and passionately getting behind
them with.
Speaker 9 (31:20):
Sort of everything that we do. That has sort of
been our special sauce, and that's kind of been a
little bit of the understanding of where it.
Speaker 10 (31:27):
Is that has been successful for us for the last
fourteen years. What will continue to sort of be the
DNA of who we are and how we move forward
and if we you know, and because of that independence,
we have allowed ourselves to be able to sort of
continue to just look at the clients and go. We
have the time and the nurturing to be able to
sort of help everybody get to where.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
They want to be.
Speaker 9 (31:49):
If not, we'll die try it. You asked a question
what keeps us up at that?
Speaker 7 (31:53):
Yet?
Speaker 9 (31:54):
I'm sure each one of us will have a different answer.
I'll give you my two. One is there is so
much content on right now. Is trying to keep up
with everything and trying to read everything.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I want more hours in every day.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
Reading and consuming content is our currency and allows us
to be the experts or trying to be the experts
as we are, as we continue to guide our clients
as things sort of things move forward.
Speaker 10 (32:21):
So being able to be on top of you know,
the market in the way that we used to, especially
now having you know, kids and lives and running a
company and all of that kind of stuff, it's been
a challenge, but it's one that we continue to commit to.
I used to be able as an assistant reach twenty
a week. I'm now down to tech, but it's still
(32:41):
tents and that is you know, it's not easy.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
That's one.
Speaker 9 (32:46):
The second thing, and I think Liz mentioned earlier the
incredible culture that we continue to believe in here. Can
we maintain that at scale, and that's going to be
something that will be an ongoing challenge, but something that
we want to remain both intentional at is to making
sure that we create the best environment for the people
(33:09):
to work here and learn and be able to grow.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Can I tell you what helps us sleep at night? Y?
Speaker 6 (33:14):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Our decision making process. Our decision making process helps us
sleep at night. When you look at the people in
this room, Liz Parker is somebody who has an incredibly
high IQ and an even higher EQ where she understands
the business, understands people, and understands the intersection of the
(33:35):
different businesses and how it is they all come together
as a cohesive unit. When you look at someone like
Brian Besser, Brian Besser speaks artists, and he connects with
the clients from a place of artistic integrity, and that
manifests itself literally through the halls of Verve as he
helped design the office. When you look at somebody like
(33:55):
Adam Levine, Adam Levine loves money and.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Loves loves money.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
He's one of the best deal makers I've ever seen,
and I often find myself in his office asking for
perspective and appreciating it. And he also has the biggest heart.
Speaker 9 (34:11):
We've always been and we will always continue to be
a police for a company. And whether that is something
that we learned early on that I think we continue
to strive for every day is listening and.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Hastening two ears and one mouth for a reason, right right.
Speaker 11 (34:26):
And listening is whether that is from a client perspective,
from the community, from the international community, or from the
mailroom or the staff.
Speaker 10 (34:39):
Whoever has the best idea waits And it's really something
that we really sort of thrive on, is listening and
then being able to interpret that into action.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Liz, anything you'd like to button us up with ever,
we believe everything is fixable. I love that. I would
like to extrapolate that model to other things in our
world right now. But seriously, thank you all for a
really candid conversation. Yeah, we appreciate it. Thank you so
much for taking the time. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Thanks for listening to our last episode of twenty twenty four.
We've had some of our best episodes yet This year,
we'll get to work on a twenty twenty four Highlights episode,
and please keep your eye on your strictly business feed
because we have big plans to grow our footprint in
twenty twenty five. Thank you, dear listeners. Wishing everyone good health,
(35:30):
prosperity and peace for the new year.
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