November 2, 2022 • 46 mins
It's another double-dose episode on the podcast this week about...podcasts. First, Jen Sargent gives us an inside look at how Amazon Prime is expanding its audio offerings. Second: Audacy chief digital officer J.D. Crowley offers his vision for the company's strategy in which podcasts play a big part.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in
which we speak with some of the brightest minds working
in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety.
Amazon made a surprise announcement this week that they'll be
expanding the audio content that comes with their popular Prime service.
So we've got Jen Sergeant, CEO of Amazon subsidiary Wondering,
(00:31):
to walk us through the strategy and then stick around
for a special bonus second interview in this episode with
j D. Crowley, chief Digital Officer at Odyssey. Podcast is
a big piece of this radio company as it struggles
to sell Wall Street on its vision for the future.
But first, Jen Sergeant. Right after this, we are back
(01:00):
with Wondering CEO, Jen Sergeant. Good to talk to you, Jen. Hi, Andrew,
thanks for having me my pleasure. So first, let's just
walk through what exactly Amazon Prime is bringing to the
table on the podcast front. What had it done before
and what is it moving to now. Yes, so, um
before podcasts were available on Amazon Music, and Amazon Music
(01:26):
is broken down into three tiers. We have an ad
supported free tier, we have the Prime tier, which is
a benefit for our Prime members, and we have Amazon
Music unlimited UM. But now Prime members can experience the
most ad free top podcasts from leading publishers like CNN
(01:49):
and PRUM, The New York Times, Barstool, UH, Slate, ESPNUM,
along with our Wondering shows like Dr Deaf and Business
Wars and smart Lists and Morbid, and they can experience
them all add free UH. And it's for Prime members
at no additional cost. So what was the rationale here?
(02:12):
I mean, did you guys have data showing that Prime
members wanted this kind of thing. Well, previously, we really
haven't turned on a strong audio benefit for Prime members.
We haven't made that a priority to let them know
about it and to lean into UM some of the
things that that we were already offering through the Amazon
(02:32):
Music Service. So this was an opportunity to add more
value to our customers, and that's something we're always looking
to do. But I'll also say that UM podcasts are
a fairly new endeavor for Amazon Music. We we launched
podcasts in the service about two years ago, Wondering was
(02:53):
acquired INE and UM. We have been building our capabilities
in the pod has space, and so now seemed like
the right time to really open this up and and
and and turn on these extra benefits for our prime members.
So you mentioned you know this started two years ago.
(03:13):
Obviously you started with Wondering, which was not always an
Amazon subsidiary. How you know sort of trace back with
us the Wondering arc and how it sort of came
under the Amazon umbrella. Sure. UM, So I joined Wondering
in summer, and at that time we were a fairly
(03:35):
early stage BC backed company UM, and we were finding
our legs in audio storytelling. UM. The founder of the
company had come from Hollywood and and and many of
the exacts, including myself, have worked in or around entertainment
and digital media and UH we saw an opportunity to
bring Hollywood styles storytelling to audio. That was kind of
(03:58):
the genesis of Wondering. And as we started to build
our portfolio of original shows and work into new formats
and UM new genres, UM, we started to gain more success.
UM Wondering has always been UH supported by by ads
by licensing and UM. With the launch of some of
(04:21):
our early successes Dirty John and Dr Death, we started
to get into TV shows UM and so those are
kind of the three lines of our business. We continue
to grow the business and I think um somewhere in
twenty uh Amazon, like like many large media companies and
(04:41):
tech companies, we're looking at additional ways to engage with
their their their customer bases. And podcasts while arguably innascent
industry really shows um incredible potential UM in my opinion,
you know, podcast or for everyone, and um, there's very
little friction for consumers from a technical perspective to downloading
(05:05):
and enjoying podcasts. So it seems like a natural place
and extension that Amazon would go given their already uh
strong footprint in music and and audiobooks. Podcasts were just
a natural extension of that. So you know, we obviously
you know, started conversations and it turned out to be
(05:28):
a great partnership which led to a marriage, you know
how these things go, um and and so yeah, we've
been to the family for a year and a half.
So now that I've got the backstory on Won Dree,
I'm just curious about sort of the ad supported side
of this business versus subscription. I mean, to some degree,
I wonder whether doesn't doesn't having an ad free subscription
(05:52):
product possibly cannibalize uh you know, what could be done.
On the other side, we don't think of it that way.
I mean, again, I mentioned podcasts are really nascent. We're
trying to expand the pie. We're trying to grow this.
We're trying to get more consumers into the podcast landscape.
And that means a number of things. It's it's it
(06:12):
means different distribution strategies. It also means just meeting consumers
where they are, um through through the mediums they're already consuming.
And so yes, part of our goal, um, and the
driver of launching this now is to really provide more
value to Prime members and and with that, we feel
that ad free and our customers have told us that
(06:35):
ad free is a really important benefit for them when
it comes to podcasts. So so that of course was
our front and center you know goal. UM. But we
want to reach a broader set of consumers than than
Prime members, and so that means going wide. And the
business model there is advertising, and um, you know, advertising
(06:56):
continues to be a really important part of wonderous business model.
It's something we're actively growing, it's something that's important to
Amazon and we think we can balance the two. UM.
So we don't really think about it as cannibalization. It's
more about expanding the pie and really getting more consumers
into this medium. So it's not as if the ad
business is reaching some sort of ceiling here. Oh not
(07:18):
at all, UM, not at all, got it. And in
terms of the you know, there's other ad free subscription
versions of Amazon podcast. There's one to ree plus, Apple
I think has a version. I know they're not exactly
the same offering. But again that cannibalization question, you know,
how do you not cannibalize one to replus or Apple? Yeah,
(07:42):
I again, we really don't think about it as cannibalization
so much as UM There is a differentiation between the
services UM one. Re Plus is a pure play podcast player,
whereas Amazon Music is an all encompassing UM audio experience.
It's music, it's podcasts, it's really an entertainment service that
(08:05):
includes a lot of different engaging features like live streaming
and merch. UM. So, yes, shows and content on Wandering
Plus will still be ad free, but the consumer intent
is a little different. We're really super serving those those
passionate UM podcast listeners who listen to you know, hours
(08:27):
and hours of podcasts today on Wondering Plus, where our
Amazon Music benefit is really servicing a broad audience of
prime members UM, who may have already discovered podcasts or
maybe brand new to podcasts. So UM, we think those
on ramps are very different. UM. And then the extension
on Apple UM is the same thing that goes back
(08:49):
to kind of meeting consumers where they are. UM. Some
consumers are not prime members, and so we want to
find them where they're listening versus if they are a
prime member. We want to deliver UM that value and
keep increasing the value for their membership. Jenna wanted to
continue on the content front, Uh, particularly with the exclusives.
I mean, uh, talk about what what you've got at
(09:11):
this point, because I know part of this is new
and kind of a name people recognize. Yeah. Yeah, So
in terms of exclusive content, Well, how much time do
you have, Andrew, there there's a lot here. UM. Let
me go through some of the the the the shows
that or the names that um your listeners might might recognize.
(09:32):
So UM, first, we're really excited about a partnership that
we did with UM Mr ball In UM. Uh he
goes by Mr ball In. His name is John Allen
UM and his company is Balling Studios. But John Allen,
through his Mr Balling podcast is one of the largest
podcasters out there. UM. He was formerly a Navy seal
(09:56):
UH turned storyteller. He's actually an amazing storytell a or
he comes from a long line of storytellers. UM and
John Uh you know, got his start on on TikTok
and then launched on YouTube and and just launched his
podcast this February, and it has really been UM quite
(10:16):
a sensation, growing month over month and UM. He shares
stories of the strange, dark and mysterious and really has
cultivated UM a large and growing audience. So we have
partner with him to bring Mr Balin exclusive to Amazon Music,
and we're working with him to UM develop new formats
(10:37):
as well for local audiences. So that's one of the
shows that that that fans can expect to find next week. UM.
You mentioned local audiences. You're talking about the international versions. UM,
we're looking at new formats UM that could apply to yes,
local audiences as well. Right, I just want to clarify
(10:58):
for the listener you me international markets when you say local. Yes,
Sorry about that, Yes, UM uh countries outside of the US, UM,
and we're actively expanding to local language podcasts in markets
like Germany, in Japan, and Mexico for example. Got it
(11:20):
and Uh, Kiki Palmer a big name we know here
in Hollywood. Um, what is she going to be doing
for you guys as an exclusive? Yeah? She has been
so much fun to work with. So if you're not
familiar with Kiki, she is really a multi talented creator
and influencer. Um, she is a musician, she is an actress,
(11:40):
she is an influencer, and it turns out she's also
a great influence interviewer. She's, um, just a really curious person.
Her podcast is called Baby This is Kicky Palmer, and um,
she is really going to be bringing on guests, um,
picking a topic each week and taking listeners down a
(12:01):
rabbit hole with her UM around topics that she's curious
about and interested in. Her first Um, her first episode
is actually going to be an interview with Black China
and the topic is only fans and it's a really
fun episode. So um, yeah, we're very excited to launch
this new show with Kiki. So how many exclusive offerings
(12:24):
are there there? There are quite a bit. Um, there
are really dozens of them right now on a global basis,
and we'll be continuing to put more shows into production
as we get into okay, and I'm also wondering. You know,
there's obviously a business in terms of monetizing i P
(12:45):
in other media. Uh, is that part of the strategy
here in terms of I know not all podcasts fit
that bill, but I'm curious what you might be doing there. Yeah,
so I I mentioned earlier. You know, we had some
early success with our Wondering podcast pre Amazon taking uh
the i P and turning it into a TV format,
(13:09):
and we continue to do that really successfully with the
recent launch of a Weak Crashed with Joe versus Carol,
with Dr Death, um, the Shrink next Door, and we
have a robust pipeline of additional podcast to TV adaptations
coming up. UM. But we also look at other places
in ways that the i P can be developed, UM,
(13:30):
whether that's merged or consumer product lines, live events and
experiences for our for our fans, UM or books. Really
it depends on the podcast. Like you said, not every
podcast can be adapted to other formats, but we try
to contemplate that from the beginning, and where there is
an opportunity, UM, we're taking advantage. And obviously being part
(13:53):
of Amazon UM has been a huge help as we
think about expanding and working with other divisions of Amazon
on some of those initiatives. There's a lot of powerful
competition out there in the podcast space. UM. You know,
other platforms have exclusives. I'm curious, is there some sort
of particular direction you're going in terms of differentiation in
(14:14):
terms of the mix of the content, anything like that.
You know, when when I think of it, I don't
necessarily think of it in terms of our competitors. We
really try to focus on our listeners and what is
going to engage them, What is going to UM cause
them to use their precious time to listen to thirty
minutes or forty minutes of a podcast, because that's a
(14:37):
lot more valuable even than their dollar a lot of times.
So we really try to start with the customer. UM.
You know, in terms of the direction, just being part
of Amazon and leveraging Amazon's capabilities, you know, beyond podcasts,
UM is really I think quite a differentiator for our
podcasts and for Wondering UM. So we're really focused on
(14:59):
on how we and best bring that value to prime members. UM.
But yeah, we're not We're not UM actually hung up
on any particular type of strategy. The for for me,
the industry is very early and we want to see
how this develops. So we are continuing with ad sales,
were um leaning into prime members and offering that value,
(15:22):
were licensing and and UM you know, adapting the I
P as I mentioned, And we'll see how this industry evolves.
And I think when we get signals that consumers have
a preference um for certain models versus others, then you know,
we'll adjust and adapt. But I think we're staying very
flexible right now to see what our consumers tell us.
(15:45):
You know, one particular issue that uh, some certain other
competitors that I won't name the have faced is content
regulation or moderation. I'm thinking obviously if Joe Rogan and Spotify,
I'm curious, do you guys have a policy in place
on this, because I think we're Spotify I got in
trouble as they really didn't. We do have internal policies
(16:06):
on this. We also try to look at the content
at at at at the start of the relationship. You know,
we we we scrutinize the partnerships that that we do,
particularly for exclusives and originals, UM and so uh we
we we try to be thoughtful on the front end.
But yes, we do have internal policies um around this
(16:27):
to ensure and um, we're constantly iterating and getting feedback
and uh, you know when we encounter something. We haven't
had something like a Joe broken. But I think any
of the services, including us, are susceptible to this happening
because we have many interview based and talk based shows. UM.
So it's something that you know, we take very seriously
(16:50):
and we're continuing to just adapt as as more um,
as more information comes out, as we learn more about
you know, what's what's happening, and and we get feedback
from our listeners. But we do have internal policies to
make sure that we're keeping an eye on on what's
going on. I was curious about just the subscription model
(17:11):
for podcasts in general. It seems to me that the
marketplace has been so ad driven for so long. Do
you sense out there that there is room for subscription? Um, Yes,
I mean I think that, uh, advertising really took off
in podcasting because some of the earliest advertisers who have
(17:34):
leaned in to podcasts were direct response, direct to consumer
type advertisers, and they had such great results that they
kept spending more and so that the ad side of
the industry grew very very quickly. Now we see larger
brands getting into it naturally because the industry is starting
to scale more and offer more sophistication. So I think
(17:56):
the ad side is definitely here. To say. On the
subscriptions side, I think it's a little bit of a
chicken and egg where where the industry had to develop
to a certain point, a certain level of high quality content,
a certain level of known and popular influencers and hosts
producing the content to really start to move the wheels
(18:18):
on subscription and around podcasts, because when you don't have
the quantity and quality of content there, it's hard to
get consumers to pay unless they just really happen to
love the particular host or you know, have a passion
point for that particular piece of content. UM But in general,
(18:39):
I think we're just starting to see the early signals
of what could make a successful subscription business. UM But
I think consumers are willing to pay, and we see that,
you know, through Wanndery Plus, through Spotify, now through Apple,
and of course through other membership programs like Time. We
(19:00):
also see that in the streaming TV space as well,
you know we we we see it with players like
you know, Netflix, and and and and Hulu and and
and certainly are our our prime video service as well.
So I think consumers are getting comfortable with subscriptions for
this type of content. So, um, we'll see how it evolves. Yeah,
(19:24):
it will be definitely interesting to see the evolution here. Jen,
I want to thank you for taking the time out
and walking us through what sounds like a very ambitious expansion. Andrew,
thank you so much for the time today. Will be
back in just a minute. Now that you've heard from
(19:49):
Jen Sergeant, let's move on to another executive who knows
the podcast business well, Odyssey chief Digital Officer j D Crowley.
I spoke with him on September nineteenth, I d s
Entertainment and Technology Summit. Thank you for joining us, j D.
Who you know? I got first got to know you
when you're at CBS Digital. How did you get you know,
(20:11):
how did you get into the radio business? You know,
describe the evolution? Great question, Thanks Andy and always good
to see you. Um. So yeah, I was advice common
then CBS for a long time on the TV side
and learning how linear media becomes digitized and transforms distribution,
watched all my friends go through it in print. You
all have done a great job of of growing your business.
(20:34):
Learned a lot in TV, and about five years ago
I said, you know, one of the traditional media that
has not yet been really disrupted or digitized his audio,
and it seems like there's an opportunity. It also seems
like there's probably a playbook that we've learned and if
we could just run that playbook in audio. And at
the time, going to a radio company, um, I felt
like the incumbents actually had a shot because there wasn't
(20:56):
massive number of disruptors coming in, and so took ad
leap when when at then at the time it was
inter Com bought CBS Radio and came into the company
then and since then, we've acquired podcast studios, We've built
out a diverse digital business in our streaming and direct
consumer business. We've rebranded the company as Odyssey, and UH
(21:17):
entered the sports betting space. It's been a really run,
a fun ride over the last several years of diversification.
What was the rebranding about. Well, at the time, we
had a brand called Tercom that nobody knew. We had
some assets that had CBS, and when you take a
step back and you actually look at the company that
is now Odyssey, Uh, it's interesting. We actually owned the
first commercial radio station in the United States, KATIEK and Pittsburgh,
(21:37):
which was started I guess in some form or another.
We've been in the audio business for a century, really
sort of pioneers in commercial audio. And you have that
radio business, the first sports radio station ever created in
w f AN in New York. We have a number
of firsts in different formats. Obviously the podcast business which
is growing quickly, and we've we've had some sort of
pioneering innovation there, a little bit of innovation in the
(22:00):
technology side in the last year or two. And so
this business name called Intercom didn't really fit the portfolio
of assets and the amount of content we created in
the way consumers and advertisers really knew us. So we
felt like we we needed to really come out as
a new brand, as a new name something that says
to the market, were audacious, we're apologetically audio um and
(22:21):
really represents the breadth of content and creators that we
have on platform. So spend some time doing some research,
worked with some of our friends on the buy side,
as well and came out with Odyssey uh In. So
it's only been about a year and a half and
it's been well received by consumers and advertisers alike, very
proud of it. What would you say, you're sort of
the points of distinction in the marketplace that you're in,
because obviously there's there's other companies as competitors. What are
(22:44):
you doing righter than them? Well, look, there's really four
scale players in audio. There's Spotify Series x M which
on Pandora as well, and and Stitcher. There's iHeart, and
there's Odyssey, and the four of us sort of have
complementary businesses. What sets Odyssey apart, and it's front beyond
the fact that we reached two hundred million Americans between radio,
podcasting and digital. What sets us apart is our real
(23:06):
DNA in spoken word audio. If you look at audio consumption, generally,
audio captures almost one in three of every media minutes
in the United States among adults, it's a massive numbers,
well over four hours a day of media consumption on average.
And about that is music. Well, none of the four
of us actually own a music publishing catalogue or or
a label, right, so we don't own that content. Um
(23:28):
and spoken word. There's there's a lot of ad networks
and rep firms. What's unique about Odyssey is about our
revenues actually are derived from content we own and produce,
and that's unique amongst our competitive set. And it's given
us a lot of permission to enter things like podcasting,
to enter things like our our new Betquel sports betting network,
and to enter other areas. And spoken word also creates
(23:49):
connections and daily habits with listeners and with advertisers. Um,
we love the music business. We do really well in it.
But that spoken word and that ability to create our
own content, own studios and own our own destiny, I
think is what sets us apart. So you know, when
you lay it all out there, audios booming, you guys
are well diversified. But to hit the elephant in the
(24:09):
room for a second, your stock got hammered this year.
It did. What what is Wall Street not getting? Because
when I listened to it, it sounds like you know
nothing but upside great, you should be an analyst. So look,
if you go back to before COVID, we had just
finished acquiring two podcast studios, Pineapple Street Studios and Cadence
thirteen to the pre eminent jewels in the podcast space.
(24:32):
We were just building out our direct consumer streaming service.
Ratings were on a rise, reach was great in radio,
Advertisers were starting to work at things like programmatic audio,
and we were beginning to build on platform pipes. And
then of course the world stopped. The market went crazy.
Everybody went down, including us, and we all went into
triage mode of course, right, and we were at the
very beginning stages of our digital transformation, our direct consumer transformation,
(24:56):
and so as we came out of the pandemic and
started to show growth, and then of course the economic
uncertainty earlier this year hit as well. So every media
company is down. You know. Double digits were no exception
to that, and of course, starting from a smaller based
post covid sort of puts us down where we are.
That said, we still believe in our strategy. We believe
our assets, as you said are are, we believe very
(25:16):
differentiated and powerful. And as we come out of this
period of disruption, as our numbers start to grow, and
as we really show the street proof and I think
that's the key right growth, businesses have been have turned
into show me stories. This year. Right, they're not really
in vogue as they have been. And so as our
growth business comes out, as our spot business in linear
radio begins to also recover, we think we'll get paid
(25:36):
for that. So I look at this as a momentary disruption.
We'll get through it, as will every other media company
in the space, and we'll begin to get paid and
recognize as we put points on the board. You know,
I can't help but wonder, given that you guys are
in linear radio, whether there might be some stigma attached
to that, And if I could ask our friends in
the back to pull up slide too. I want to
(25:57):
share we did at Variety Intelligence Form we did a
survey getting people's attitudes about radio. And what was interesting,
as you can see on the chart here, is that
there are people clearly still value radio, but just as
many people are finding podcasting as a replacement, they prefer
(26:18):
streaming music whatnot. So make the case for linear radio?
Is this still something that has growth in it? Yes?
So it's interesting when you look at perceptions and you
look at data, many times they get dislocated, particularly in
a business that's been around for a hundred years, like
the radio business. Um as I said earlier, one in
three media minutes are spent with audio, and actually the
(26:40):
vast majority of those are still spent in AD supported audio,
and of those the majority are with radio. Of all
AD supported minutes in a car are with linear radio.
But out of that one third of media time, only
nine of media dollars, of advertiser dollars actually get spent
in audio, generally radio, podcast, streaming, etcetera. And so do
you remember so of years ago Mary Meeker would do
(27:01):
her slide decks um still does obviously and comes out
and there's this mobile gap, right, there's mobile consumption up
here and mobile monetization is down here, and she looks
at that as an area of opportunity. And we all
talked about that mobile monetization gap. I think we and
our peers in the audio space look at that thirty
one percent of time spent and nine percent of ad
spend and say, we're kind of where mobile was a
few years ago. So there's this rediscovery of audio going on.
(27:24):
Audio consumption is growing, Audio reach radio reaches the number
one reach media in the United States. Over of Americans
listened to broadcast radio on a regular basis. But you're
right there is a perception gap. You know what's going
to change that though, And I think what closes that
delta between that nine percent of spending and thirty one
percent of time spent is media buyers habits changing, right,
(27:45):
like like video before it, and like other forms of
media on platform buying, unified platform buying is really changing
in the buying industry, and programmatic audio is still very
small as a relative share of total spend, but it's
growing rapidly, and we know the playbook and video is
exactly what is going to happen in audio. And so
as advertisers begin to value impressions that they can't get
in broadcast TV by the way, my my former stomping
(28:06):
ground and are harder to find at least good, qualified, quality,
brand safe impressions in other forms of digital media, radio
and podcasting and streaming altogether become a really great asset.
So I can make the case for linear radio because
of the consumption, but the case really should be made
for audio more generally, and for how linear and streaming targeted,
digital and podcasting, host read and programmatic, how those work
(28:29):
together for advertisers and from a consumer perspective, as you said,
the when you come outside, particularly of a city like
New York where where I live. UM, consumers love their
local radio station, they love their local personalities. They're starting
to get them more on digital devices though, and streaming
radio is growing actually faster than podcasting today. Interesting well,
as you can see from the data we've got up now,
(28:50):
and by the way, take advantage of that discount code
for Variety Intelligence platform. UM, it does show that digital
is growing. So now that we've discussed the linear slice
of this, and we'll get to podcasts streaming radio. Personally,
I've I don't think I've ever even streamed radio. It's
either that linear podcast. What am I not getting about
(29:13):
this business? Sure, so it's still very early days in
radio going. We'll call it over the top for all
my friends in the TV business, same kind of idea
or or director consumers. So our Odyssey platform, of course,
I Hearts I Heart app is no different than a
Disney Plus or an HBO Max or Paramount Plus, except
that they are right now predominantly AD supported. And when
(29:34):
you look at the data, consumers you're right have not
spent as much time streaming radio because they're very satisfied
with that. I get in my car, I turn it on,
or I get you know, into the office and I
turn on the radio. People did still have radios and
offices before COVID, and they love it. It works, It
does exactly what it's supposed to do. It's really easy.
The listening experience is great, easy to go. So we've
started solving problems with streaming and radio listeners in the
(29:56):
same way. TV has um our streaming product, which actually
has a number of patents, and interactivity is a lot
like how YouTube TV's interface works. As a v M
v p D. You can rewind live radio, you can
go back and play shows from earlier in the day,
all based in the clouds. Were now adding data where
if you love this morning show, I'm a Boomer and
Carton listener, or a Boomer and Geo listener rather in
New York, I can go back and find exactly what
(30:17):
they talked about in the morning. I can see they
talked about the jets imploding. Hit that button and it
goes right to their right there to that segment. So
we're doing those kinds of things to make radio streaming
more appealing to customers who want to get it on
more digital devices. You also have smart speakers. Smart speakers
have been a great boon. Radios in the homes, it's
no secret have declined, but they've actually just been replaced
by smart speakers, and it's really easy to say play
(30:39):
K rock or play k and x UM and so
those are those are driving growth. And then as people
get back to work, we're actually seeing desktop listening increase.
People like listening to the radio during the day because
it's curated, it's handcrafted, it's a companion tool, there's personalities there,
and so we're gonna do more on the streaming side
to do things like change the ad experience. Our streams
don't need to be measured Nielsen in the same way
(31:00):
linear does. They don't need to be bought in the
same way. So we can do things like interactivity at
experience and then again bringing our contents of people on
demand whenever they want it. UM is something radio has
not historically invested in up until the last few years. UM. Lastly,
I would say that data point I referenced earlier, so
podcast listening captures about six percent of all listening time
in the US. Streaming radio is now up to about
(31:22):
five and as I said earlier, it's growing faster than podcasting.
So we see a world where consumers will say streaming, radio, podcasting,
it's all the same thing. I like my personalities, I
like the companionship, and I want to get it on
my phone or my laptop, or my smart speaker or
the speaker in my toaster. Someday it doesn't matter to
us wherever you get it. Um audio kind of engages
in a different way, and that's that's why I think
we'll see growth in the next several years. Well before
(31:45):
we dig in on the podcast side, and there's a
lot to dig into their you mentioned COVID, and I
wanted to get a sense from you of how, if
at all, that disruption, that multi year disruption changed audio habits,
whether for the entire in the story you're just your company. Well,
to show you how big linear radio is as a
share of time. All audio time actually took a big
(32:07):
decline during COVID. There was a trough. We have a
survey called chair of Ear, which is measured quarterly and
goes back to and if you look at it from
things were steady and then as we headed into COVID,
you say it's really big v trough. Well, the good
news is as of second quarter of this year, we're
back to those levels. That's due to the growth in linear.
It's also actually due to the growth in streaming and
just do the growth in podcasting UM and so you know,
(32:30):
I think I think, as I said before, streaming audio
is going to streaming radio will continue to have an
effect on growth overall. I think that linear consumption reach
is still where it was pre pandemic UM and I
actually think that the disruption is beneficial because it drove
sampling of some of these products like more podcasting, like
streaming radio. And from an advertiser perspective, look, they just
want more impressions, they just want more reach, They just
(32:52):
want more targeting, and so audio is retooling itself to
give it to them across platforms. Another macro circumstance I
want to unpack is look at the state of the
economy today. I don't know whether a recession is coming
or not. Inflation certainly out of control. How is this
impacting your business? I mean, I don't think it's probably
impacting the listeners, but I got to imagine marketers are
(33:15):
maybe a little gunshot. Ye if if anything, it actually
drives listening up right, radio and podcasting are free and
um I think will continue to be for the foreseeable future.
And in times of disruption, people want companionship, they want
personalities they know. So if anything on listening, it's it's
a net positive. If anything on the marketer side, you
know as countless studies out there that show that advertisers
that cut back during COVID during prior recessions see an
(33:37):
impact on sales. And that's why I think you're seeing
this kind of mixed data from a macro perspective in
the market. UM. The thing that radio has always had
going for it, which kind of cuts both ways. It
has always been the lowest CPM media. It's always been
the lowest cost provider. If you're an advertiser and you
want reach, there's no place to get it like radio.
TV doesn't deliver it, print doesn't deliver it at a
home doesn't deliver it, and they always have the lowest
(33:59):
CPMs in media. Now, as a guy who comes out
of digital and TV, I think that's probably also a
bad thing. I think we need to raise our rates.
But that said, for advertisers, you can get really efficient
buys with the reach that radio provides. You what they
can do now that they couldn't do in two thousand
eight or during COVID is layer on heavy targeted streaming
media is layer on podcasting, host endorsement and target advised.
(34:22):
And so by doing these multi platform buys with folks
like Odyssey and our scale peers, advertisers can have incredible efficiency,
lower rates, can get more reach, more frequency out of
their out of their buys. And we've actually seen no
offense to my TV friends in the room, but we've
seen a lot of advertisers who have had success shifting
portions of their TV budget into radio and into multi
platform audio and actually delivering significantly greater outcomes for for
(34:45):
our O. I So I think the recession potential recession,
if anything, is an opportunity for more advertisers to discover
that if we can make it easy to buy well,
you mentioned the advantages is that the low barrier to
entry is free. Um, but there's been talks as we
get into the pod case podcast space, subscription podcast maybe
(35:07):
a thing is that something you guys are looking at? Yeah,
I mean today we are a reach vehicle. We want
to get our content and our creators. We have a
ton of creators in our company, as you would imagine
given how much original content. Anytime I say that, or
anytime I talk about licensing, we have a licensing business
that is good. We do windowing. But anytime we start
to talk about that, immediately a creator in the room
will say, but I want as many people to hear
(35:28):
my work as possible, And so that's a part of
our DNA. We understand and supported media. We understand reach
and scale and distribution. That's not to say that there's
not consumer revenue models that will take hold in our
streaming business. Maybe in the podcast business, we're experimenting with
some of those. There's also, just like you all have done,
expanding into events and other types of consumer revenue. So
(35:48):
I think it's a little too early to decide is
one model or the other. I think podcasting will be
a diverse set of models, not on like YouTube influencers,
and there's probably a role for subscription to play in that.
But today we're most excited about the fact we just
want to keep growing the pie of what is already
a massive amount of listeners. So talk about what creators
you have in house there. I mean, there's obviously a
(36:09):
bunch of different pieces to the podcast puzzle, but let's
go one at a time. Sure, And and you know,
as you said, the barrier to entry is low, except
unless you're you know, very good at doing this, in
which case it can be a little bit higher. But
the cost relative to TV are still very low. Covid
actually also helped grow our podcast creating business and our
studio businesses because people couldn't go to set, it couldn't shoot,
(36:29):
and so they could stay at home. We can send
them a great quality of microphone and they could record
great shows. And so whether it's a Glennon Doyle who
is a part of our cadence, their teen studio, stephen
A Smith. We have a great partnership with Puck News,
Punch Hoole, with a number of news businesses. We have
a great influencer business called Bramble, which actually joint venture
with our friends at U t A. And it's everyone
from Charlie and Dixie, Damelio to Smash to Reten Link,
(36:54):
Emma Chamberlain. That's a great business for us. Um a
lot in sports, stephen A Smith and a number of
other creators there. We even have narrative businesses. John Mitcham,
the historian is a great partner of ours. We have
an imprint with him. Doc Rivers is a part of
that as well. Um and then we have a big
growing original studio at at Caden's thirteen, so a number
of shows Gone South and others which have been at
the top of the charts and gotten a lot of
(37:15):
critical acclaim. And we actually even launched a features business.
We dot our first one in partnership with Endeavor Content
and have expanded that business where we're taking scripts which
are made for feature length films, developing in them and
producing them as podcasts. First, our first one was with
Kieranan Shipka called treat Our second when Ghostwriters was with
Adam Scott and Kate Mara, and those are ultimately destined
(37:35):
to become feature films using podcasts not only as a
way to build audience, but as a way to develop
i P cheaply or relatively cheaply compared to what a
traditional development window. So that that's our Cadence their teen business,
and that is a big scale based business. We also
have a studio called Pineapple Street. Many of you may
be familiar with them. They do the top companion podcasts,
did Succession with HBO, UM Winning Time. They've done a
(37:58):
ton for Netflix, including Don't Look Backs, Companion Show. They
do a lot of work for brands like Nike and Google,
but they also create some of the biggest sort of
chart topping podcasts When to Change, They did Missing which
Richard Simmons way back, and they have a number of
hits out this year. So they are a high quality
boutique studio. And and they actually have a slate deal
with Amazon, one of the first slate deals I've seen
(38:20):
in podcasting for partnership for four shows, and I'm sure
we'll do more there, So that's a great business for us.
And then and then you know, remember we also on
the radio side have um let's say, thousand talent across
the company, across the top fifty markets in the US
UM and so we're creating a ton of content. They're
both local engagement as well as in sports. We launched
(38:41):
a new studio last year called Sports. In its first year,
it now has over a hundred shows covering all NFL teams,
NBA teams, MLB teams, And we've got writers and our
talent and former players who are hosting podcast targeted directly
at those fan bases. It's growing like crazy. So you know,
podcasting today is about creating content, resonates with listeners and
then holding on as it goes so fast and scales
(39:03):
so fast. It's a lot like the early days of YouTube.
Collaborations are big, word of mouth is really big. But
at the end of the day, it comes down to
give an intimate relationship with a listener. As you know,
strictly business, you have your your earbuds in their gas plug.
They're walking around the streets of Manhattan, are driving here
in their car in l a or or on the train,
or at home doing dishes at night. That's me um,
(39:25):
And so you're inside their earbuds and there is no
more intimate type of media than that. And if you
can tap into that intimacy and relationship with an audience, um,
you're gonna have a million down liards before you know it.
So that that's our podcast business on the studio side,
I should say, on the advertiser side, we also have
a platform called Podcorn. Podcorn has it's sort of the
midtail business, the seventy creators. It's unique. No other platform
(39:48):
has that kind of scale. And this is great if
you're a brand that wants to come in and say,
I want to find a thousand shows that have really
niche but powerful, deep audiences in let's call it road cycling.
And so with podcorn you can come in as an advertiser.
You can find these thousand shows in road cycling, they've
got real niche audiences, and you can very easily buy
a host red personal endorsement at across all thousand shows
(40:10):
with the bush of one button. So that's a great platform.
We bought it about a year and a half ago.
It's scaling like crazy. Great co founders, Um, we're good
friends of the family and and so we believe they're
that platform that was also allowing our team to go
in and find creators that would have never otherwise been
discovered and then potentially offer them deals for radio, for podcasts, etcetera.
So that business is a huge, multidimensional business. But it's
(40:32):
got a great flywall flywell to it. Yeah, I mean
there is a lot there and it makes me wonder ballpark,
you know, in terms of podcast digital linear in terms
of revenue contribution, what is that mixed shift looking like? Well,
so before the pandemic in en are digital revenues represented
about nine pcent of our total company revenues, and it
(40:53):
probably won't surprise you today that we are nearly a
quarter digital when it comes to revenue mix, and obviously
that digital is growing and continue to grow double digits.
It's also a nice diverse business. As you mentioned, we
have our streaming business with our podcast business, and we
asked we actually also have a digital agency business that
local advertisers, the five thousand of them can help activate
their search campaigns. They're connected TV campaigns, their email campaigns,
(41:17):
and each of those businesses um are are roughly about
the same in terms of size and focus. And then
during the pandemic, we entered the sports betting business, which
has been taking off. Of course, we bought an app
called back Quel for that, which is like a it's
a subscription business, sort of like a Bloomberg terminal for betting.
If you want to know what has the most profitable
outcome for tonight's bets, Beq will tell you. But why
(41:37):
we bought it is we turned it into a content
marketing business. We created a Baqel network, the leading sports
betting podcast in the US, and so that's what we
know how to do. We know how to make content
and any space we enter, like a sports betting space.
We're gonna take something that has data and turn it
into content and turn it into big audiences. Those four
businesses are our digital business. You know, there's great adjacent
season synergies between them, and you could think about other
(42:00):
of adjacencies to those businesses that we might be interested
in the future. Well, if there's one recurring theme here,
it's sports. I mean that seems to be kind of
the specialty for your company, and sports betting I would
imagine is really going to supercharge that. That's right. Looks
we are by far and away the number one sports
audio company in the United States, both in radio and
in and an audio more generally, also very deep in news.
(42:23):
Those two together contribute to that market share in spoken word.
And you know, you gotta know how to do this
kind of content. It's really hard to open up. I'm
a huge sports fan. You and I sit down and
record a sports podcast. I don't think anybody in this
room is gonna listen to it, probably more because of
me than you, So you gotta really know what you're doing.
You gotta know how to engage an audience. Talking about
sports is about building characters amongst folks in the show.
(42:44):
It's about really tapping into storylines, knowing when great is
great and when not great is also great, and understanding
how to play that role engaging fans. So there's a
real competency that has to be built, and I think
that's why, whether it's sports podcasting, whether it's sports betting,
that E n A in sports has allowed us to
really quickly enter and scale in those markets. I mean,
(43:05):
if there's any obstacle in the podcast business, and I
think you were kind of alluding to this, it's discovery.
There's just so much out there, So how are you
able to take care of what's underneath the Odyssey umbrella
and make sure that it's really maximizing its audience potential. Look,
we used to say podcasting was an eight twenty business
where eight percent of the dollars an audience went to
(43:26):
percent of the shows. I would say now it's probably
business because there are just so many shows. Anyone, uh,
including our new sports podcast we're gonna launch next week,
could launch a podcast. It's very easy to do, and
so that means you got over three million podcasts, probably
four million by the time we're done here. Um, This
is where the power of a network and the power
of a group of shows together really matters, whether it's
(43:49):
us or some of our our peers. Um. You know,
our podcast business has reaches about fifty million people globally
every month, will over thirty million in the US, almost
one in three podcast listeners. And so what we do is,
just like other kinds of media, we let the shows
talk to each other, we cross pollinate, host we promote
one show from another. The best way to discover podcasts
is no surprise on another podcast. So whether it's promoting
(44:11):
on our Podcorn network, whether it's promoting within our own shows,
that's really the best way to discovery. But I will
tell you owning a radio business that reaches a couple
hundred Americans isn't bad either, And so that allows us
to not just run ads. But when we did Gone South,
which was a true crime story in New Orleans, we
were able to have the reporter call into one of
our New Orleans stations. They spent an hour on the
phone talking about this case, and the numbers in New
(44:32):
Orleans the next day threw off the charts. So, you know,
having that radio business, the streaming business, and of course
that podcast network today. That's really the best way to
get discovery, even more so than leaning on promoted post
on the platforms or charts or things of that nature.
But you're also in live events. To some we are
hearing how material is that. Look, it's a really important
(44:53):
part of our overall portfolio. We can survive. Coming up
here next month at the Hollywood Bawl, we just announced
the lineup. We have Odyssey Beach Fest in Florida coming up.
Stars and Strings, which is a country event in Florida.
We do these great multi artist events. We also do
live events in sports, we do coach talks and things
of that nature. UM, and we've done other sort of
civic engagement work, which is a really important part of
(45:14):
our company. We've done that in our news business, will
do that leaning into the election. You know, radio and
events have always worked very well together because people when
somebody in the morning radio show or in your drive
home says you gotta check this out, you gotta come
to this event, you gotta come touch this artist or
this athlete or this coach or learn from this influence
or um, people really lean into that, you know, virtual events.
On the music side, we were talking about have been
(45:35):
a little bit tricky, but I will say Glenn and Doyle,
one of our podcast host who has an amazingly engaged community,
did a virtual event for us and we had I
think fifty thou people can currently live streaming this event
who were part of her community. That doesn't just happen
in live events. So again, I think that connection of
talent UH and the ability to activate local audiences who
(45:55):
are the ones going to these events um is a
real differentiator for us and and for the industry generally. Well,
I mean, as this conversation proves, there's a lot of
pieces in the Odyssey puzzle, but you've done a good
job of explaining how it all comes together for this
broader picture. Thanks for taking the time to talk to you, Judy,
Thank you appreciate it. Always good to see you. This
(46:21):
has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next
week for another helping of scintillating conversation with media movers
and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to the
podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review in
Apple Podcasts and let us know how we're doing.
Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in
which we speak with some of the brightest minds working
in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety.
Amazon made a surprise announcement this week that they'll be
expanding the audio content that comes with their popular Prime service.
So we've got Jen Sergeant, CEO of Amazon subsidiary Wondering,
(00:31):
to walk us through the strategy and then stick around
for a special bonus second interview in this episode with
j D. Crowley, chief Digital Officer at Odyssey. Podcast is
a big piece of this radio company as it struggles
to sell Wall Street on its vision for the future.
But first, Jen Sergeant. Right after this, we are back
(01:00):
with Wondering CEO, Jen Sergeant. Good to talk to you, Jen. Hi, Andrew,
thanks for having me my pleasure. So first, let's just
walk through what exactly Amazon Prime is bringing to the
table on the podcast front. What had it done before
and what is it moving to now. Yes, so, um
before podcasts were available on Amazon Music, and Amazon Music
(01:26):
is broken down into three tiers. We have an ad
supported free tier, we have the Prime tier, which is
a benefit for our Prime members, and we have Amazon
Music unlimited UM. But now Prime members can experience the
most ad free top podcasts from leading publishers like CNN
(01:49):
and PRUM, The New York Times, Barstool, UH, Slate, ESPNUM,
along with our Wondering shows like Dr Deaf and Business
Wars and smart Lists and Morbid, and they can experience
them all add free UH. And it's for Prime members
at no additional cost. So what was the rationale here?
(02:12):
I mean, did you guys have data showing that Prime
members wanted this kind of thing. Well, previously, we really
haven't turned on a strong audio benefit for Prime members.
We haven't made that a priority to let them know
about it and to lean into UM some of the
things that that we were already offering through the Amazon
(02:32):
Music Service. So this was an opportunity to add more
value to our customers, and that's something we're always looking
to do. But I'll also say that UM podcasts are
a fairly new endeavor for Amazon Music. We we launched
podcasts in the service about two years ago, Wondering was
(02:53):
acquired INE and UM. We have been building our capabilities
in the pod has space, and so now seemed like
the right time to really open this up and and
and and turn on these extra benefits for our prime members.
So you mentioned you know this started two years ago.
(03:13):
Obviously you started with Wondering, which was not always an
Amazon subsidiary. How you know sort of trace back with
us the Wondering arc and how it sort of came
under the Amazon umbrella. Sure. UM, So I joined Wondering
in summer, and at that time we were a fairly
(03:35):
early stage BC backed company UM, and we were finding
our legs in audio storytelling. UM. The founder of the
company had come from Hollywood and and and many of
the exacts, including myself, have worked in or around entertainment
and digital media and UH we saw an opportunity to
bring Hollywood styles storytelling to audio. That was kind of
(03:58):
the genesis of Wondering. And as we started to build
our portfolio of original shows and work into new formats
and UM new genres, UM, we started to gain more success.
UM Wondering has always been UH supported by by ads
by licensing and UM. With the launch of some of
(04:21):
our early successes Dirty John and Dr Death, we started
to get into TV shows UM and so those are
kind of the three lines of our business. We continue
to grow the business and I think um somewhere in
twenty uh Amazon, like like many large media companies and
(04:41):
tech companies, we're looking at additional ways to engage with
their their their customer bases. And podcasts while arguably innascent
industry really shows um incredible potential UM in my opinion,
you know, podcast or for everyone, and um, there's very
little friction for consumers from a technical perspective to downloading
(05:05):
and enjoying podcasts. So it seems like a natural place
and extension that Amazon would go given their already uh
strong footprint in music and and audiobooks. Podcasts were just
a natural extension of that. So you know, we obviously
you know, started conversations and it turned out to be
(05:28):
a great partnership which led to a marriage, you know
how these things go, um and and so yeah, we've
been to the family for a year and a half.
So now that I've got the backstory on Won Dree,
I'm just curious about sort of the ad supported side
of this business versus subscription. I mean, to some degree,
I wonder whether doesn't doesn't having an ad free subscription
(05:52):
product possibly cannibalize uh you know, what could be done.
On the other side, we don't think of it that way.
I mean, again, I mentioned podcasts are really nascent. We're
trying to expand the pie. We're trying to grow this.
We're trying to get more consumers into the podcast landscape.
And that means a number of things. It's it's it
(06:12):
means different distribution strategies. It also means just meeting consumers
where they are, um through through the mediums they're already consuming.
And so yes, part of our goal, um, and the
driver of launching this now is to really provide more
value to Prime members and and with that, we feel
that ad free and our customers have told us that
(06:35):
ad free is a really important benefit for them when
it comes to podcasts. So so that of course was
our front and center you know goal. UM. But we
want to reach a broader set of consumers than than
Prime members, and so that means going wide. And the
business model there is advertising, and um, you know, advertising
(06:56):
continues to be a really important part of wonderous business model.
It's something we're actively growing, it's something that's important to
Amazon and we think we can balance the two. UM.
So we don't really think about it as cannibalization. It's
more about expanding the pie and really getting more consumers
into this medium. So it's not as if the ad
business is reaching some sort of ceiling here. Oh not
(07:18):
at all, UM, not at all, got it. And in
terms of the you know, there's other ad free subscription
versions of Amazon podcast. There's one to ree plus, Apple
I think has a version. I know they're not exactly
the same offering. But again that cannibalization question, you know,
how do you not cannibalize one to replus or Apple? Yeah,
(07:42):
I again, we really don't think about it as cannibalization
so much as UM There is a differentiation between the
services UM one. Re Plus is a pure play podcast player,
whereas Amazon Music is an all encompassing UM audio experience.
It's music, it's podcasts, it's really an entertainment service that
(08:05):
includes a lot of different engaging features like live streaming
and merch. UM. So, yes, shows and content on Wandering
Plus will still be ad free, but the consumer intent
is a little different. We're really super serving those those
passionate UM podcast listeners who listen to you know, hours
(08:27):
and hours of podcasts today on Wondering Plus, where our
Amazon Music benefit is really servicing a broad audience of
prime members UM, who may have already discovered podcasts or
maybe brand new to podcasts. So UM, we think those
on ramps are very different. UM. And then the extension
on Apple UM is the same thing that goes back
(08:49):
to kind of meeting consumers where they are. UM. Some
consumers are not prime members, and so we want to
find them where they're listening versus if they are a
prime member. We want to deliver UM that value and
keep increasing the value for their membership. Jenna wanted to
continue on the content front, Uh, particularly with the exclusives.
I mean, uh, talk about what what you've got at
(09:11):
this point, because I know part of this is new
and kind of a name people recognize. Yeah. Yeah, So
in terms of exclusive content, Well, how much time do
you have, Andrew, there there's a lot here. UM. Let
me go through some of the the the the shows
that or the names that um your listeners might might recognize.
(09:32):
So UM, first, we're really excited about a partnership that
we did with UM Mr ball In UM. Uh he
goes by Mr ball In. His name is John Allen
UM and his company is Balling Studios. But John Allen,
through his Mr Balling podcast is one of the largest
podcasters out there. UM. He was formerly a Navy seal
(09:56):
UH turned storyteller. He's actually an amazing storytell a or
he comes from a long line of storytellers. UM and
John Uh you know, got his start on on TikTok
and then launched on YouTube and and just launched his
podcast this February, and it has really been UM quite
(10:16):
a sensation, growing month over month and UM. He shares
stories of the strange, dark and mysterious and really has
cultivated UM a large and growing audience. So we have
partner with him to bring Mr Balin exclusive to Amazon Music,
and we're working with him to UM develop new formats
(10:37):
as well for local audiences. So that's one of the
shows that that that fans can expect to find next week. UM.
You mentioned local audiences. You're talking about the international versions. UM,
we're looking at new formats UM that could apply to yes,
local audiences as well. Right, I just want to clarify
(10:58):
for the listener you me international markets when you say local. Yes,
Sorry about that, Yes, UM uh countries outside of the US, UM,
and we're actively expanding to local language podcasts in markets
like Germany, in Japan, and Mexico for example. Got it
(11:20):
and Uh, Kiki Palmer a big name we know here
in Hollywood. Um, what is she going to be doing
for you guys as an exclusive? Yeah? She has been
so much fun to work with. So if you're not
familiar with Kiki, she is really a multi talented creator
and influencer. Um, she is a musician, she is an actress,
(11:40):
she is an influencer, and it turns out she's also
a great influence interviewer. She's, um, just a really curious person.
Her podcast is called Baby This is Kicky Palmer, and um,
she is really going to be bringing on guests, um,
picking a topic each week and taking listeners down a
(12:01):
rabbit hole with her UM around topics that she's curious
about and interested in. Her first Um, her first episode
is actually going to be an interview with Black China
and the topic is only fans and it's a really
fun episode. So um, yeah, we're very excited to launch
this new show with Kiki. So how many exclusive offerings
(12:24):
are there there? There are quite a bit. Um, there
are really dozens of them right now on a global basis,
and we'll be continuing to put more shows into production
as we get into okay, and I'm also wondering. You know,
there's obviously a business in terms of monetizing i P
(12:45):
in other media. Uh, is that part of the strategy
here in terms of I know not all podcasts fit
that bill, but I'm curious what you might be doing there. Yeah,
so I I mentioned earlier. You know, we had some
early success with our Wondering podcast pre Amazon taking uh
the i P and turning it into a TV format,
(13:09):
and we continue to do that really successfully with the
recent launch of a Weak Crashed with Joe versus Carol,
with Dr Death, um, the Shrink next Door, and we
have a robust pipeline of additional podcast to TV adaptations
coming up. UM. But we also look at other places
in ways that the i P can be developed, UM,
(13:30):
whether that's merged or consumer product lines, live events and
experiences for our for our fans, UM or books. Really
it depends on the podcast. Like you said, not every
podcast can be adapted to other formats, but we try
to contemplate that from the beginning, and where there is
an opportunity, UM, we're taking advantage. And obviously being part
(13:53):
of Amazon UM has been a huge help as we
think about expanding and working with other divisions of Amazon
on some of those initiatives. There's a lot of powerful
competition out there in the podcast space. UM. You know,
other platforms have exclusives. I'm curious, is there some sort
of particular direction you're going in terms of differentiation in
(14:14):
terms of the mix of the content, anything like that.
You know, when when I think of it, I don't
necessarily think of it in terms of our competitors. We
really try to focus on our listeners and what is
going to engage them, What is going to UM cause
them to use their precious time to listen to thirty
minutes or forty minutes of a podcast, because that's a
(14:37):
lot more valuable even than their dollar a lot of times.
So we really try to start with the customer. UM.
You know, in terms of the direction, just being part
of Amazon and leveraging Amazon's capabilities, you know, beyond podcasts,
UM is really I think quite a differentiator for our
podcasts and for Wondering UM. So we're really focused on
(14:59):
on how we and best bring that value to prime members. UM.
But yeah, we're not We're not UM actually hung up
on any particular type of strategy. The for for me,
the industry is very early and we want to see
how this develops. So we are continuing with ad sales,
were um leaning into prime members and offering that value,
(15:22):
were licensing and and UM you know, adapting the I
P as I mentioned, And we'll see how this industry evolves.
And I think when we get signals that consumers have
a preference um for certain models versus others, then you know,
we'll adjust and adapt. But I think we're staying very
flexible right now to see what our consumers tell us.
(15:45):
You know, one particular issue that uh, some certain other
competitors that I won't name the have faced is content
regulation or moderation. I'm thinking obviously if Joe Rogan and Spotify,
I'm curious, do you guys have a policy in place
on this, because I think we're Spotify I got in
trouble as they really didn't. We do have internal policies
(16:06):
on this. We also try to look at the content
at at at at the start of the relationship. You know,
we we we scrutinize the partnerships that that we do,
particularly for exclusives and originals, UM and so uh we
we we try to be thoughtful on the front end.
But yes, we do have internal policies um around this
(16:27):
to ensure and um, we're constantly iterating and getting feedback
and uh, you know when we encounter something. We haven't
had something like a Joe broken. But I think any
of the services, including us, are susceptible to this happening
because we have many interview based and talk based shows. UM.
So it's something that you know, we take very seriously
(16:50):
and we're continuing to just adapt as as more um,
as more information comes out, as we learn more about
you know, what's what's happening, and and we get feedback
from our listeners. But we do have internal policies to
make sure that we're keeping an eye on on what's
going on. I was curious about just the subscription model
(17:11):
for podcasts in general. It seems to me that the
marketplace has been so ad driven for so long. Do
you sense out there that there is room for subscription? Um, Yes,
I mean I think that, uh, advertising really took off
in podcasting because some of the earliest advertisers who have
(17:34):
leaned in to podcasts were direct response, direct to consumer
type advertisers, and they had such great results that they
kept spending more and so that the ad side of
the industry grew very very quickly. Now we see larger
brands getting into it naturally because the industry is starting
to scale more and offer more sophistication. So I think
(17:56):
the ad side is definitely here. To say. On the
subscriptions side, I think it's a little bit of a
chicken and egg where where the industry had to develop
to a certain point, a certain level of high quality content,
a certain level of known and popular influencers and hosts
producing the content to really start to move the wheels
(18:18):
on subscription and around podcasts, because when you don't have
the quantity and quality of content there, it's hard to
get consumers to pay unless they just really happen to
love the particular host or you know, have a passion
point for that particular piece of content. UM But in general,
(18:39):
I think we're just starting to see the early signals
of what could make a successful subscription business. UM But
I think consumers are willing to pay, and we see that,
you know, through Wanndery Plus, through Spotify, now through Apple,
and of course through other membership programs like Time. We
(19:00):
also see that in the streaming TV space as well,
you know we we we see it with players like
you know, Netflix, and and and and Hulu and and
and certainly are our our prime video service as well.
So I think consumers are getting comfortable with subscriptions for
this type of content. So, um, we'll see how it evolves. Yeah,
(19:24):
it will be definitely interesting to see the evolution here. Jen,
I want to thank you for taking the time out
and walking us through what sounds like a very ambitious expansion. Andrew,
thank you so much for the time today. Will be
back in just a minute. Now that you've heard from
(19:49):
Jen Sergeant, let's move on to another executive who knows
the podcast business well, Odyssey chief Digital Officer j D Crowley.
I spoke with him on September nineteenth, I d s
Entertainment and Technology Summit. Thank you for joining us, j D.
Who you know? I got first got to know you
when you're at CBS Digital. How did you get you know,
(20:11):
how did you get into the radio business? You know,
describe the evolution? Great question, Thanks Andy and always good
to see you. Um. So yeah, I was advice common
then CBS for a long time on the TV side
and learning how linear media becomes digitized and transforms distribution,
watched all my friends go through it in print. You
all have done a great job of of growing your business.
(20:34):
Learned a lot in TV, and about five years ago
I said, you know, one of the traditional media that
has not yet been really disrupted or digitized his audio,
and it seems like there's an opportunity. It also seems
like there's probably a playbook that we've learned and if
we could just run that playbook in audio. And at
the time, going to a radio company, um, I felt
like the incumbents actually had a shot because there wasn't
(20:56):
massive number of disruptors coming in, and so took ad
leap when when at then at the time it was
inter Com bought CBS Radio and came into the company
then and since then, we've acquired podcast studios, We've built
out a diverse digital business in our streaming and direct
consumer business. We've rebranded the company as Odyssey, and UH
(21:17):
entered the sports betting space. It's been a really run,
a fun ride over the last several years of diversification.
What was the rebranding about. Well, at the time, we
had a brand called Tercom that nobody knew. We had
some assets that had CBS, and when you take a
step back and you actually look at the company that
is now Odyssey, Uh, it's interesting. We actually owned the
first commercial radio station in the United States, KATIEK and Pittsburgh,
(21:37):
which was started I guess in some form or another.
We've been in the audio business for a century, really
sort of pioneers in commercial audio. And you have that
radio business, the first sports radio station ever created in
w f AN in New York. We have a number
of firsts in different formats. Obviously the podcast business which
is growing quickly, and we've we've had some sort of
pioneering innovation there, a little bit of innovation in the
(22:00):
technology side in the last year or two. And so
this business name called Intercom didn't really fit the portfolio
of assets and the amount of content we created in
the way consumers and advertisers really knew us. So we
felt like we we needed to really come out as
a new brand, as a new name something that says
to the market, were audacious, we're apologetically audio um and
(22:21):
really represents the breadth of content and creators that we
have on platform. So spend some time doing some research,
worked with some of our friends on the buy side,
as well and came out with Odyssey uh In. So
it's only been about a year and a half and
it's been well received by consumers and advertisers alike, very
proud of it. What would you say, you're sort of
the points of distinction in the marketplace that you're in,
because obviously there's there's other companies as competitors. What are
(22:44):
you doing righter than them? Well, look, there's really four
scale players in audio. There's Spotify Series x M which
on Pandora as well, and and Stitcher. There's iHeart, and
there's Odyssey, and the four of us sort of have
complementary businesses. What sets Odyssey apart, and it's front beyond
the fact that we reached two hundred million Americans between radio,
podcasting and digital. What sets us apart is our real
(23:06):
DNA in spoken word audio. If you look at audio consumption, generally,
audio captures almost one in three of every media minutes
in the United States among adults, it's a massive numbers,
well over four hours a day of media consumption on average.
And about that is music. Well, none of the four
of us actually own a music publishing catalogue or or
a label, right, so we don't own that content. Um
(23:28):
and spoken word. There's there's a lot of ad networks
and rep firms. What's unique about Odyssey is about our
revenues actually are derived from content we own and produce,
and that's unique amongst our competitive set. And it's given
us a lot of permission to enter things like podcasting,
to enter things like our our new Betquel sports betting network,
and to enter other areas. And spoken word also creates
(23:49):
connections and daily habits with listeners and with advertisers. Um,
we love the music business. We do really well in it.
But that spoken word and that ability to create our
own content, own studios and own our own destiny, I
think is what sets us apart. So you know, when
you lay it all out there, audios booming, you guys
are well diversified. But to hit the elephant in the
(24:09):
room for a second, your stock got hammered this year.
It did. What what is Wall Street not getting? Because
when I listened to it, it sounds like you know
nothing but upside great, you should be an analyst. So look,
if you go back to before COVID, we had just
finished acquiring two podcast studios, Pineapple Street Studios and Cadence
thirteen to the pre eminent jewels in the podcast space.
(24:32):
We were just building out our direct consumer streaming service.
Ratings were on a rise, reach was great in radio,
Advertisers were starting to work at things like programmatic audio,
and we were beginning to build on platform pipes. And
then of course the world stopped. The market went crazy.
Everybody went down, including us, and we all went into
triage mode of course, right, and we were at the
very beginning stages of our digital transformation, our direct consumer transformation,
(24:56):
and so as we came out of the pandemic and
started to show growth, and then of course the economic
uncertainty earlier this year hit as well. So every media
company is down. You know. Double digits were no exception
to that, and of course, starting from a smaller based
post covid sort of puts us down where we are.
That said, we still believe in our strategy. We believe
our assets, as you said are are, we believe very
(25:16):
differentiated and powerful. And as we come out of this
period of disruption, as our numbers start to grow, and
as we really show the street proof and I think
that's the key right growth, businesses have been have turned
into show me stories. This year. Right, they're not really
in vogue as they have been. And so as our
growth business comes out, as our spot business in linear
radio begins to also recover, we think we'll get paid
(25:36):
for that. So I look at this as a momentary disruption.
We'll get through it, as will every other media company
in the space, and we'll begin to get paid and
recognize as we put points on the board. You know,
I can't help but wonder, given that you guys are
in linear radio, whether there might be some stigma attached
to that, And if I could ask our friends in
the back to pull up slide too. I want to
(25:57):
share we did at Variety Intelligence Form we did a
survey getting people's attitudes about radio. And what was interesting,
as you can see on the chart here, is that
there are people clearly still value radio, but just as
many people are finding podcasting as a replacement, they prefer
(26:18):
streaming music whatnot. So make the case for linear radio?
Is this still something that has growth in it? Yes?
So it's interesting when you look at perceptions and you
look at data, many times they get dislocated, particularly in
a business that's been around for a hundred years, like
the radio business. Um as I said earlier, one in
three media minutes are spent with audio, and actually the
(26:40):
vast majority of those are still spent in AD supported audio,
and of those the majority are with radio. Of all
AD supported minutes in a car are with linear radio.
But out of that one third of media time, only
nine of media dollars, of advertiser dollars actually get spent
in audio, generally radio, podcast, streaming, etcetera. And so do
you remember so of years ago Mary Meeker would do
(27:01):
her slide decks um still does obviously and comes out
and there's this mobile gap, right, there's mobile consumption up
here and mobile monetization is down here, and she looks
at that as an area of opportunity. And we all
talked about that mobile monetization gap. I think we and
our peers in the audio space look at that thirty
one percent of time spent and nine percent of ad
spend and say, we're kind of where mobile was a
few years ago. So there's this rediscovery of audio going on.
(27:24):
Audio consumption is growing, Audio reach radio reaches the number
one reach media in the United States. Over of Americans
listened to broadcast radio on a regular basis. But you're
right there is a perception gap. You know what's going
to change that though, And I think what closes that
delta between that nine percent of spending and thirty one
percent of time spent is media buyers habits changing, right,
(27:45):
like like video before it, and like other forms of
media on platform buying, unified platform buying is really changing
in the buying industry, and programmatic audio is still very
small as a relative share of total spend, but it's
growing rapidly, and we know the playbook and video is
exactly what is going to happen in audio. And so
as advertisers begin to value impressions that they can't get
in broadcast TV by the way, my my former stomping
(28:06):
ground and are harder to find at least good, qualified, quality,
brand safe impressions in other forms of digital media, radio
and podcasting and streaming altogether become a really great asset.
So I can make the case for linear radio because
of the consumption, but the case really should be made
for audio more generally, and for how linear and streaming targeted,
digital and podcasting, host read and programmatic, how those work
(28:29):
together for advertisers and from a consumer perspective, as you said,
the when you come outside, particularly of a city like
New York where where I live. UM, consumers love their
local radio station, they love their local personalities. They're starting
to get them more on digital devices though, and streaming
radio is growing actually faster than podcasting today. Interesting well,
as you can see from the data we've got up now,
(28:50):
and by the way, take advantage of that discount code
for Variety Intelligence platform. UM, it does show that digital
is growing. So now that we've discussed the linear slice
of this, and we'll get to podcasts streaming radio. Personally,
I've I don't think I've ever even streamed radio. It's
either that linear podcast. What am I not getting about
(29:13):
this business? Sure, so it's still very early days in
radio going. We'll call it over the top for all
my friends in the TV business, same kind of idea
or or director consumers. So our Odyssey platform, of course,
I Hearts I Heart app is no different than a
Disney Plus or an HBO Max or Paramount Plus, except
that they are right now predominantly AD supported. And when
(29:34):
you look at the data, consumers you're right have not
spent as much time streaming radio because they're very satisfied
with that. I get in my car, I turn it on,
or I get you know, into the office and I
turn on the radio. People did still have radios and
offices before COVID, and they love it. It works, It
does exactly what it's supposed to do. It's really easy.
The listening experience is great, easy to go. So we've
started solving problems with streaming and radio listeners in the
(29:56):
same way. TV has um our streaming product, which actually
has a number of patents, and interactivity is a lot
like how YouTube TV's interface works. As a v M
v p D. You can rewind live radio, you can
go back and play shows from earlier in the day,
all based in the clouds. Were now adding data where
if you love this morning show, I'm a Boomer and
Carton listener, or a Boomer and Geo listener rather in
New York, I can go back and find exactly what
(30:17):
they talked about in the morning. I can see they
talked about the jets imploding. Hit that button and it
goes right to their right there to that segment. So
we're doing those kinds of things to make radio streaming
more appealing to customers who want to get it on
more digital devices. You also have smart speakers. Smart speakers
have been a great boon. Radios in the homes, it's
no secret have declined, but they've actually just been replaced
by smart speakers, and it's really easy to say play
(30:39):
K rock or play k and x UM and so
those are those are driving growth. And then as people
get back to work, we're actually seeing desktop listening increase.
People like listening to the radio during the day because
it's curated, it's handcrafted, it's a companion tool, there's personalities there,
and so we're gonna do more on the streaming side
to do things like change the ad experience. Our streams
don't need to be measured Nielsen in the same way
(31:00):
linear does. They don't need to be bought in the
same way. So we can do things like interactivity at
experience and then again bringing our contents of people on
demand whenever they want it. UM is something radio has
not historically invested in up until the last few years. UM. Lastly,
I would say that data point I referenced earlier, so
podcast listening captures about six percent of all listening time
in the US. Streaming radio is now up to about
(31:22):
five and as I said earlier, it's growing faster than podcasting.
So we see a world where consumers will say streaming, radio, podcasting,
it's all the same thing. I like my personalities, I
like the companionship, and I want to get it on
my phone or my laptop, or my smart speaker or
the speaker in my toaster. Someday it doesn't matter to
us wherever you get it. Um audio kind of engages
in a different way, and that's that's why I think
we'll see growth in the next several years. Well before
(31:45):
we dig in on the podcast side, and there's a
lot to dig into their you mentioned COVID, and I
wanted to get a sense from you of how, if
at all, that disruption, that multi year disruption changed audio habits,
whether for the entire in the story you're just your company. Well,
to show you how big linear radio is as a
share of time. All audio time actually took a big
(32:07):
decline during COVID. There was a trough. We have a
survey called chair of Ear, which is measured quarterly and
goes back to and if you look at it from
things were steady and then as we headed into COVID,
you say it's really big v trough. Well, the good
news is as of second quarter of this year, we're
back to those levels. That's due to the growth in linear.
It's also actually due to the growth in streaming and
just do the growth in podcasting UM and so you know,
(32:30):
I think I think, as I said before, streaming audio
is going to streaming radio will continue to have an
effect on growth overall. I think that linear consumption reach
is still where it was pre pandemic UM and I
actually think that the disruption is beneficial because it drove
sampling of some of these products like more podcasting, like
streaming radio. And from an advertiser perspective, look, they just
want more impressions, they just want more reach, They just
(32:52):
want more targeting, and so audio is retooling itself to
give it to them across platforms. Another macro circumstance I
want to unpack is look at the state of the
economy today. I don't know whether a recession is coming
or not. Inflation certainly out of control. How is this
impacting your business? I mean, I don't think it's probably
impacting the listeners, but I got to imagine marketers are
(33:15):
maybe a little gunshot. Ye if if anything, it actually
drives listening up right, radio and podcasting are free and
um I think will continue to be for the foreseeable future.
And in times of disruption, people want companionship, they want
personalities they know. So if anything on listening, it's it's
a net positive. If anything on the marketer side, you
know as countless studies out there that show that advertisers
that cut back during COVID during prior recessions see an
(33:37):
impact on sales. And that's why I think you're seeing
this kind of mixed data from a macro perspective in
the market. UM. The thing that radio has always had
going for it, which kind of cuts both ways. It
has always been the lowest CPM media. It's always been
the lowest cost provider. If you're an advertiser and you
want reach, there's no place to get it like radio.
TV doesn't deliver it, print doesn't deliver it at a
home doesn't deliver it, and they always have the lowest
(33:59):
CPMs in media. Now, as a guy who comes out
of digital and TV, I think that's probably also a
bad thing. I think we need to raise our rates.
But that said, for advertisers, you can get really efficient
buys with the reach that radio provides. You what they
can do now that they couldn't do in two thousand
eight or during COVID is layer on heavy targeted streaming
media is layer on podcasting, host endorsement and target advised.
(34:22):
And so by doing these multi platform buys with folks
like Odyssey and our scale peers, advertisers can have incredible efficiency,
lower rates, can get more reach, more frequency out of
their out of their buys. And we've actually seen no
offense to my TV friends in the room, but we've
seen a lot of advertisers who have had success shifting
portions of their TV budget into radio and into multi
platform audio and actually delivering significantly greater outcomes for for
(34:45):
our O. I So I think the recession potential recession,
if anything, is an opportunity for more advertisers to discover
that if we can make it easy to buy well,
you mentioned the advantages is that the low barrier to
entry is free. Um, but there's been talks as we
get into the pod case podcast space, subscription podcast maybe
(35:07):
a thing is that something you guys are looking at? Yeah,
I mean today we are a reach vehicle. We want
to get our content and our creators. We have a
ton of creators in our company, as you would imagine
given how much original content. Anytime I say that, or
anytime I talk about licensing, we have a licensing business
that is good. We do windowing. But anytime we start
to talk about that, immediately a creator in the room
will say, but I want as many people to hear
(35:28):
my work as possible, And so that's a part of
our DNA. We understand and supported media. We understand reach
and scale and distribution. That's not to say that there's
not consumer revenue models that will take hold in our
streaming business. Maybe in the podcast business, we're experimenting with
some of those. There's also, just like you all have done,
expanding into events and other types of consumer revenue. So
(35:48):
I think it's a little too early to decide is
one model or the other. I think podcasting will be
a diverse set of models, not on like YouTube influencers,
and there's probably a role for subscription to play in that.
But today we're most excited about the fact we just
want to keep growing the pie of what is already
a massive amount of listeners. So talk about what creators
you have in house there. I mean, there's obviously a
(36:09):
bunch of different pieces to the podcast puzzle, but let's
go one at a time. Sure, And and you know,
as you said, the barrier to entry is low, except
unless you're you know, very good at doing this, in
which case it can be a little bit higher. But
the cost relative to TV are still very low. Covid
actually also helped grow our podcast creating business and our
studio businesses because people couldn't go to set, it couldn't shoot,
(36:29):
and so they could stay at home. We can send
them a great quality of microphone and they could record
great shows. And so whether it's a Glennon Doyle who
is a part of our cadence, their teen studio, stephen
A Smith. We have a great partnership with Puck News,
Punch Hoole, with a number of news businesses. We have
a great influencer business called Bramble, which actually joint venture
with our friends at U t A. And it's everyone
from Charlie and Dixie, Damelio to Smash to Reten Link,
(36:54):
Emma Chamberlain. That's a great business for us. Um a
lot in sports, stephen A Smith and a number of
other creators there. We even have narrative businesses. John Mitcham,
the historian is a great partner of ours. We have
an imprint with him. Doc Rivers is a part of
that as well. Um and then we have a big
growing original studio at at Caden's thirteen, so a number
of shows Gone South and others which have been at
the top of the charts and gotten a lot of
(37:15):
critical acclaim. And we actually even launched a features business.
We dot our first one in partnership with Endeavor Content
and have expanded that business where we're taking scripts which
are made for feature length films, developing in them and
producing them as podcasts. First, our first one was with
Kieranan Shipka called treat Our second when Ghostwriters was with
Adam Scott and Kate Mara, and those are ultimately destined
(37:35):
to become feature films using podcasts not only as a
way to build audience, but as a way to develop
i P cheaply or relatively cheaply compared to what a
traditional development window. So that that's our Cadence their teen business,
and that is a big scale based business. We also
have a studio called Pineapple Street. Many of you may
be familiar with them. They do the top companion podcasts,
did Succession with HBO, UM Winning Time. They've done a
(37:58):
ton for Netflix, including Don't Look Backs, Companion Show. They
do a lot of work for brands like Nike and Google,
but they also create some of the biggest sort of
chart topping podcasts When to Change, They did Missing which
Richard Simmons way back, and they have a number of
hits out this year. So they are a high quality
boutique studio. And and they actually have a slate deal
with Amazon, one of the first slate deals I've seen
(38:20):
in podcasting for partnership for four shows, and I'm sure
we'll do more there, So that's a great business for us.
And then and then you know, remember we also on
the radio side have um let's say, thousand talent across
the company, across the top fifty markets in the US
UM and so we're creating a ton of content. They're
both local engagement as well as in sports. We launched
(38:41):
a new studio last year called Sports. In its first year,
it now has over a hundred shows covering all NFL teams,
NBA teams, MLB teams, And we've got writers and our
talent and former players who are hosting podcast targeted directly
at those fan bases. It's growing like crazy. So you know,
podcasting today is about creating content, resonates with listeners and
then holding on as it goes so fast and scales
(39:03):
so fast. It's a lot like the early days of YouTube.
Collaborations are big, word of mouth is really big. But
at the end of the day, it comes down to
give an intimate relationship with a listener. As you know,
strictly business, you have your your earbuds in their gas plug.
They're walking around the streets of Manhattan, are driving here
in their car in l a or or on the train,
or at home doing dishes at night. That's me um,
(39:25):
And so you're inside their earbuds and there is no
more intimate type of media than that. And if you
can tap into that intimacy and relationship with an audience, um,
you're gonna have a million down liards before you know it.
So that that's our podcast business on the studio side,
I should say, on the advertiser side, we also have
a platform called Podcorn. Podcorn has it's sort of the
midtail business, the seventy creators. It's unique. No other platform
(39:48):
has that kind of scale. And this is great if
you're a brand that wants to come in and say,
I want to find a thousand shows that have really
niche but powerful, deep audiences in let's call it road cycling.
And so with podcorn you can come in as an advertiser.
You can find these thousand shows in road cycling, they've
got real niche audiences, and you can very easily buy
a host red personal endorsement at across all thousand shows
(40:10):
with the bush of one button. So that's a great platform.
We bought it about a year and a half ago.
It's scaling like crazy. Great co founders, Um, we're good
friends of the family and and so we believe they're
that platform that was also allowing our team to go
in and find creators that would have never otherwise been
discovered and then potentially offer them deals for radio, for podcasts, etcetera.
So that business is a huge, multidimensional business. But it's
(40:32):
got a great flywall flywell to it. Yeah, I mean
there is a lot there and it makes me wonder ballpark,
you know, in terms of podcast digital linear in terms
of revenue contribution, what is that mixed shift looking like? Well,
so before the pandemic in en are digital revenues represented
about nine pcent of our total company revenues, and it
(40:53):
probably won't surprise you today that we are nearly a
quarter digital when it comes to revenue mix, and obviously
that digital is growing and continue to grow double digits.
It's also a nice diverse business. As you mentioned, we
have our streaming business with our podcast business, and we
asked we actually also have a digital agency business that
local advertisers, the five thousand of them can help activate
their search campaigns. They're connected TV campaigns, their email campaigns,
(41:17):
and each of those businesses um are are roughly about
the same in terms of size and focus. And then
during the pandemic, we entered the sports betting business, which
has been taking off. Of course, we bought an app
called back Quel for that, which is like a it's
a subscription business, sort of like a Bloomberg terminal for betting.
If you want to know what has the most profitable
outcome for tonight's bets, Beq will tell you. But why
(41:37):
we bought it is we turned it into a content
marketing business. We created a Baqel network, the leading sports
betting podcast in the US, and so that's what we
know how to do. We know how to make content
and any space we enter, like a sports betting space.
We're gonna take something that has data and turn it
into content and turn it into big audiences. Those four
businesses are our digital business. You know, there's great adjacent
season synergies between them, and you could think about other
(42:00):
of adjacencies to those businesses that we might be interested
in the future. Well, if there's one recurring theme here,
it's sports. I mean that seems to be kind of
the specialty for your company, and sports betting I would
imagine is really going to supercharge that. That's right. Looks
we are by far and away the number one sports
audio company in the United States, both in radio and
in and an audio more generally, also very deep in news.
(42:23):
Those two together contribute to that market share in spoken word.
And you know, you gotta know how to do this
kind of content. It's really hard to open up. I'm
a huge sports fan. You and I sit down and
record a sports podcast. I don't think anybody in this
room is gonna listen to it, probably more because of
me than you, So you gotta really know what you're doing.
You gotta know how to engage an audience. Talking about
sports is about building characters amongst folks in the show.
(42:44):
It's about really tapping into storylines, knowing when great is
great and when not great is also great, and understanding
how to play that role engaging fans. So there's a
real competency that has to be built, and I think
that's why, whether it's sports podcasting, whether it's sports betting,
that E n A in sports has allowed us to
really quickly enter and scale in those markets. I mean,
(43:05):
if there's any obstacle in the podcast business, and I
think you were kind of alluding to this, it's discovery.
There's just so much out there, So how are you
able to take care of what's underneath the Odyssey umbrella
and make sure that it's really maximizing its audience potential. Look,
we used to say podcasting was an eight twenty business
where eight percent of the dollars an audience went to
(43:26):
percent of the shows. I would say now it's probably
business because there are just so many shows. Anyone, uh,
including our new sports podcast we're gonna launch next week,
could launch a podcast. It's very easy to do, and
so that means you got over three million podcasts, probably
four million by the time we're done here. Um, This
is where the power of a network and the power
of a group of shows together really matters, whether it's
(43:49):
us or some of our our peers. Um. You know,
our podcast business has reaches about fifty million people globally
every month, will over thirty million in the US, almost
one in three podcast listeners. And so what we do is,
just like other kinds of media, we let the shows
talk to each other, we cross pollinate, host we promote
one show from another. The best way to discover podcasts
is no surprise on another podcast. So whether it's promoting
(44:11):
on our Podcorn network, whether it's promoting within our own shows,
that's really the best way to discovery. But I will
tell you owning a radio business that reaches a couple
hundred Americans isn't bad either, And so that allows us
to not just run ads. But when we did Gone South,
which was a true crime story in New Orleans, we
were able to have the reporter call into one of
our New Orleans stations. They spent an hour on the
phone talking about this case, and the numbers in New
(44:32):
Orleans the next day threw off the charts. So, you know,
having that radio business, the streaming business, and of course
that podcast network today. That's really the best way to
get discovery, even more so than leaning on promoted post
on the platforms or charts or things of that nature.
But you're also in live events. To some we are
hearing how material is that. Look, it's a really important
(44:53):
part of our overall portfolio. We can survive. Coming up
here next month at the Hollywood Bawl, we just announced
the lineup. We have Odyssey Beach Fest in Florida coming up.
Stars and Strings, which is a country event in Florida.
We do these great multi artist events. We also do
live events in sports, we do coach talks and things
of that nature. UM, and we've done other sort of
civic engagement work, which is a really important part of
(45:14):
our company. We've done that in our news business, will
do that leaning into the election. You know, radio and
events have always worked very well together because people when
somebody in the morning radio show or in your drive
home says you gotta check this out, you gotta come
to this event, you gotta come touch this artist or
this athlete or this coach or learn from this influence
or um, people really lean into that, you know, virtual events.
On the music side, we were talking about have been
(45:35):
a little bit tricky, but I will say Glenn and Doyle,
one of our podcast host who has an amazingly engaged community,
did a virtual event for us and we had I
think fifty thou people can currently live streaming this event
who were part of her community. That doesn't just happen
in live events. So again, I think that connection of
talent UH and the ability to activate local audiences who
(45:55):
are the ones going to these events um is a
real differentiator for us and and for the industry generally. Well,
I mean, as this conversation proves, there's a lot of
pieces in the Odyssey puzzle, but you've done a good
job of explaining how it all comes together for this
broader picture. Thanks for taking the time to talk to you, Judy,
Thank you appreciate it. Always good to see you. This
(46:21):
has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next
week for another helping of scintillating conversation with media movers
and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to the
podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review in
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