Sherwin Shilati on Writing and Directing Lucifer, Obliterated and Animal Kingdom

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to Studio twenty two.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Studio twenty two. I'm your host Will Meldman
with my amazing co host Brock o'heron what's going on.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
How you doing today?

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Good? It's good to be back back.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, here we go back and better than ever, back
and beautiful. We are here today with writer director Sherwin Schilatti.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
Nice to see you, subgents. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Thanks for having us you. We're very grateful you can
dedicate six hours of your day today for this podcast.

Speaker 4 (00:37):
Someone called my wife, that sounds good.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Crash off of our comic Con experience together. We were
all on the panel together. It was fantastic. It was
nice having a director writer director's perspective on that.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Yeah, I know, it was fun just to cruise comic
Con and see all the cool stuff that's out there
and talk to a few people who have stayed for
the for the panel and chat with them about what
they're doing, and you know, it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
It's great seeing the sense of community at those things, right, Like,
we're all there, we love all the same stuff for
the most part, and what we don't, you know, what
doesn't overlap we argue about and you know, their friendly
arguments and it's fun.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yeah. Yeah, you get detached sometimes from like who's consuming
the stuff you're creating, you know what I mean, And
it's it is an awesome experience to just kind of
like connect with people who are digging what you're doing,
or digging things you might dig and you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
So one of your big shows is Lucifer, which is amazing.
I love that show and I didn't even realize that
it was a part of the DC comic world. Yeah right,
I'm like, I'm like, oh my god, Like of course,
So what was it like directing on that show? Because literally,
Lucifer Morning starts one of the most powerful DC characters

(01:55):
out there as the fallen Angel, and and you were,
you know, on that for a long time directing that.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
What was that like?

Speaker 4 (02:02):
Yeah, I mean it was first of all, like the
that show was my first real opportunity to direct in television.
They I came through this program and Warner Brothers TV
directing program, And in order to get into that program,
you had to have a show who's that was willing

(02:22):
to take a shot on you to come in direct
an episode. And I was really Lucky. In the second season,
Jerry Bruckheimer Productions, you know, decided to give me a
crack and legend. Yeah, I mean the dude, I mean,
I always tell this story, but like Bad Boys was
the movie that kind of really went off in my
mind as like, oh this this could be something I
would love to do one day. And so it was

(02:45):
a very cool experience to have my first real sort
of paying job to be for his company. And he's
he's obviously a legend, but like he watches every cut
of every show they produce, so he's very aware of
what's happening, like nothing gets gets past him. So so yeah,
just joining that team really not knowing where it was

(03:05):
gonna go, Like I kind of felt like maybe I'm
gonna treat this as I'll never get another shot, you know.
So I showed up and really just swung for the
fences and it ended up connecting and you know, that
one little mid season episode that I did for them,
I called God Johnson, it ended up sort of paving

(03:27):
the way to you know, directing every season you know,
remaining for them and then doing their musical episode and
doing their series finale and all that. So so was
getting back to sort of walking into that universe and
loose for Morning Star as a DC character. Everyone was
very aware of the sort of origin story of that character.

(03:48):
But I mean between the showrunners Joe and Ild and
the actors and Tom who embodied the character, it's like
they sort of created their own unique you know of
this character, Like what would this end up being for television?
Felt very different than what the comic book character to to.
I mean even in like he's depicted as a blonde.

(04:09):
You know, yeah, yeah, so like even the physical depiction
is different. But but you know, just yeah, Tom made
it his own and being a top ten Netflix show
of all time and all that stuff. Like obviously the
showrunners and the writers and everybody who was involved, but
you know Tom also just like play that character so
beautifully and you know, it was a pleasure to be

(04:31):
a part of it.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, you mentioned you know, like the blonde and the
you know, dark hair kind of differences. It's like, did
you find you know, kind of audience and fans out
there maybe like you know, pointing out like hey, that's different,
but then they kind of watch it and then Tom, Tom,
like you said, makes it his own and then you know,
you all come in and create something special and unique.

(04:51):
Did you find that, you know, an interesting relationship with
the fans of the comic book?

Speaker 4 (04:56):
Well, anytime I would show up to direct an episode
and I'd be in the writer's room and it's spend
time with the producers and stuff like that. You know,
you'd walk into a room and it'd just be wall
to wall covered in fan aren't gifts that were being
given to the writers amazing stuff Tom's you know, Tom
had like collections of things in his trailer, like they

(05:17):
really cherished these these things that came from the fans,
and so it was really heartwarming to see how connected
to the fans the showrunners were and the creators were,
and the actors and everybody, and you really did feel like,
you know, you you wanted to pull it off for them.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
You know that's great.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things you
can do when making TV and film or really anything
that you're kind of bringing to the public is pay
homage to the people that support it, you know, the
people that are fans of it, and going out of
your way to make sure like you show up for
them because they're the ones who were watching it, right,
And when you start to go against that and you're
gonna have a disaster, you're gonna have You're not gonna
have a show, right. I'm kind of curious, like, because

(06:01):
Tom is such an incredible actor, like he's phenomenal over
your period of directing, over all those seasons, did you
see or notice the writers kind of catering to him
and who he was and it became more enveloped in
his personality and how he acted and all that stuff,
Like did it become more I think?

Speaker 4 (06:21):
You know, first of all, this is like the most
collaborative person you can imagine, Like, you know people, Tom
is so collaborative, so open for input, wants to have
these creative conversations with people. So it was truly a
blessing to be able to, you know, have him front
the show and and and carry it in that way.

(06:44):
And once again, so many talented actors in this in
in that show, but of course Tom was was our
sort of tip of the spear. And you know, I
know for for sure that's certain writers like when they
were pitching dialogue, they would just do it in Tom's
voice in the room, you know, they would just try
it out in his voice in his mannerism because he

(07:04):
just created this unique thing and and so I I
you know, also he can do anything. So it's like,
you know, they've never shied away from putting him in
crazy situations or you know, there was nothing that they
felt like he wasn't able to step up and make

(07:24):
his own. So yeah, they I think to a degree
they would like try on scenes in dialogue with like
his voice and all that that would help you know,
them imagine where it would go. But yeah, it was.
It was very collaborative always.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
I mean you think of that Neil Game and Mike
Carry comic book run as like one of the greatest
comic runs like ever, essentially right, And it's like, was
there I guess this is kind of more of like
a writing question, but was there like this feeling that
you wanted to capture that essence or really was it
more of like, Wow, we have this, you know, great

(08:00):
cast and great concept, and we're kind of going to
create something original and new kind of while still paint
hum well.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
I mean, I think you'd have to ask Joe and
ld that specifically the showrunners. I think for me showing
up as a director on the show, I wanted to
you know, be faithful to what the writers put on
the page, right, and I wanted to get you know,
get that message across in the most entertaining and compelling
way possible. And you know, I kind of always say

(08:31):
from a TV directing standpoint, you know, I think that
TV directors are doing their job, you know, at a
high level when they show you what you didn't know
you wanted, right. So that's that's sort of the way
I like to think about it, is like, yeah, it's
my job to come and shoot with on the page,
but also to you know, bring new ideas, to innovate

(08:52):
and show you something that like maybe you never thought about,
but maybe you would dig and think it would be
appropriate for the show. So yeah, I think I think, yeah,
you'd have to get into the into those sort of
motivations with the showrunners and the writers. But for me,
I definitely was aware of the comics. I can't say
that I was, you know, reading every issue when I

(09:13):
was growing up or whatever, but but I knew that
it was you know, they spend so much time with
these breaking these stories and writing these scripts and blood,
sweat and tears, and you know, I took it as
a very personal challenge for me to to translate that
in the in the most innovative, interesting way possible.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, that's awesome. You said that was your first basically,
like real big opportunity, paying opportunity essentially, like this was
your one shot, right, How did it feel going from
where your your journey starting to get to that point
and then landing that and like how did how what
was that feeling when you first got it?

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Boy? You know, my road is not like a linear
stray path. So you know, I I'm a med school dropout,
Like I was not planning on pursuing this career. I
had a very dear friend of mine who was a
college roommate, who I'd known him since elementary school, and

(10:13):
he was a film student and I would go to
I would like audit film classes with him and really
began to see we went to the same high school.
He injured his leg. We played on the same football team.
He breaks his leg, and I was a captain of
the football team. So I'm like, I'm gonna go visit
this this this defensive lineman friend of month, and I

(10:35):
visited him, and like very quickly we realized, oh shit,
we like the same movies. So we just started watching.
He had the Friday the thirteenth box set. We just
would fly through that in a weekend. We'd watch all
the Jason's. We'd find the most you know, deep cut
horror movies and things. And so we developed this really
really strong friendship and senior year of high school so anyway,

(10:56):
we ended up going to college together too, and for
a period of time we were roomates and I would
go out and like be his ad or his pa
or whatever it was to help him make his short
films and stuff. And you know, I tell I'll still
tell him this to this day, but like, you know,
he had a lot to do with at least opening
my eyes up to see that there was a career

(11:18):
to be had here. He'd never mentioned how hard it was,
but it's certainly like, oh cool, directing, producing these things, writing,
this could be a career. So you know, i'd say
the first ten years and you know, we sort of
talked about this is like three levels of directing, right.
It's like Level one you put money in to get

(11:40):
the opportunity to go shoot something, right, you got to
pay for that. Level two you just show up, you shoot,
but you don't make anyone you break even. But now
there's a few more resources, right, and then level three
is you're actually getting paid to direct right to practice
your art. Damn, It's hard to get to that third level, right.
So it took me a while so much so, I

(12:03):
mean we're talking over a decade to get to a
place where I was, you know, actually being paid by
a studio to you know, direct, And for me just
get going back to Brock's question specifically, you know what
did that moment feel like? You know, I applied to
this that same roommate who I'll tell the world his name,

(12:24):
Adam Hendrix, who is a producer. He just produced Megan.
So yeah, so Adam called me out of the blue
and it was like, I'm working with Warner Brothers right now.
They have They asked me if I knew any directors
who should apply for this Warner Brothers directing program, and
I think you should apply, and I my response was
like fuck that noise, Like these programs don't mean shit,

(12:46):
Like no one, no one ever goes anywhere. And this
is before the program has actually had some weight to them,
like they could do something. Because I had applied to
these programs before Sony Universal whatever, nothing happened. So I
was really down on it.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Got into those programs and they never got.

Speaker 4 (13:02):
Never I got pretty far down the road. But even
the people who got in, from what I could tell,
but it notoriously difficult to get people jobs based on
these programs. And honestly, my first job was on a
show called Lost, and I had seen people yeah job.
My first job was on Lost, and I worked in

(13:23):
the production office. I worked for the producing director, and
I got to see sort of the sentiment and the
feeling of like, you know, these program type directors coming
in and shadowing, and it was tough, you know, like
people are there grinding, trying to work, and and it
wasn't always the most welcoming environment for someone who's wanting
to just come learn and get exposure and stuff. So

(13:44):
that all that played into me being like, I'm not
going to apply to this program. And so it was
my wife who convinced me, on like the day before
the application was due, just apply, just apply. And we
had just had our first kid, and you know, I
had told her that, you know, we kind of had
this agreement that I would give her an expiration date

(14:04):
of me trying to pursue this dream, and that date
was creeping very close, and maybe maybe there's a part
of me that kind of like gave up at that point.
I don't know. I definitely was like I had come
to terms with doing other things with my life because
I knew that my passion is to tell stories. So
even if I could direct community theater, you know, and

(14:25):
do something else to earn money, I think I would
there would be a worldwide be at peace with that. Yeah,
So so maybe maybe that's what unlocked certain things whatever.
But I applied, and you know, I got into this
program through a lot of like hoops that I had
to jump through, but I finally got an opportunity. And

(14:49):
I do remember in that moment, I was driving down
some street and I just pulled over and I cried.
I was by myself, I was by myself, and I
just had to pull the car over and I just wept,
you know, and I think it was certainly a cry
of joy. But and you know, you know, you never know,

(15:11):
so many talented people who like get opportunities and doesn't
turn into a career for whatever reason. Right, So there
were no guarantees that like, yes, sure I'd do an episode,
but like that could just flatline and like nothing after that.
But I just think for that moment, getting to that place,
it was a culmination of so much shit, you know,

(15:31):
and grinding and you know, so many nights, weekends, things,
you know, extra this the sacrifices, you know, and and
knowing that my family and my wife like all these
people had my back through all this, and and uh,
like I can, I can, I can at least point
to this thing and say, okay, I have a shot,

(15:53):
and I'm I'm fucking ready. I was very ready, and
it was not going to be a lack of you know,
preparation that was gonna do me if it wasn't meant
to work out, right, So, so to answer your question,
when I got that call, and of course you know,
they don't tell you, like, you know, a big chunk
of that paycheck's going to go to joining the union
and then your agent, and so it wasn't about the money, right,

(16:15):
It was about I guess validation, right to say, hey, okay,
we think you deserve a shot, because I knew in
my heart, like if I got invited to the party,
you know, I will, I will, yeah, do enough to
show that I can contribute something to this fiesta, you know.

(16:37):
So so yeah, it just yeah, I think, and it
sucks right as an artist, like what are we searching for?
It's like validation is a part of it, and I
don't know why. I don't know what in my childhood
or my life why I'm searching for that in my work.
But at the same time, I think any artist wants
to know that their work is being received, right, I

(17:00):
think I think, yeah, there's a lot of psychology behind that.
But anyway, it was one of the best moments of
my life just to get that call. And then you know,
based on that moment, there were additional moments, like you know,
during the process and shooting and the moment I in
that first episode I suggested a really crazy sequence. If

(17:21):
anyone is a fan of the show and has seen
that episode, God Johnson, it's the escape from the Insane Asylum.
And that was a kind of like laying it all
on the line kind of a moment for me with
the showrunners and with the producers. I was like, you know,
trust me enough to do this crazy sequence, this this
one shot insane kind of thing, and hey, if I

(17:44):
blow it, then you were right. But you know, but
if I but if I don't, then maybe I'll get
a little bit more trust the next time around. And
that's and that's how it went. So yeah, I'm just
really fortunate it landed.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
I that's an amazing story. I I, you know, obviously
appreciate you sharing. There's one part I kind of want
to go back to and highlight, you know, especially for
a lot of the young'in's out there, like that really
struck me so back in the day. I literally had
that same call it a tradition with one of my buddies.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
It was me one of my friends.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
And every like every other every you know, Friday night,
we'd pick a horror film and we'd saddle up and
we'd you know, watched all the classics from basically everything
you named that, the Omen, the Exorcist, you know, and
we went through all of them, and we developed this
amazing affinity for horror films and film in general, of course,

(18:43):
but special effects, visual effects, all that. But it really
meant something to us, and it was like this epic
tradition that opened our eyes to a whole other branch
of film that we didn't really know existed. And you know,
this feeling of holy shit, like pure fright, right, like
just like adrenaline and like holy you know. And that

(19:07):
led to taking a horror film class at USC and
then taking you know, Alfred Hitchcock class and all that,
and then of course us producing our first film, which
well first film for me as a producer, The Resort,
which was a horror film. I think you never know
what's gonna be those moments when you're young, and like

(19:30):
at the time, we're like, yeah, we're just watching horror films, right,
but things can like spark in you and you can
actually give things more meaning if you follow through on that.
And I think one of the other main points and
similarities I wanted to point out was you mentioned, you know,
years of sacrifice after that, and very similar story with

(19:52):
me of like, of course it starts with interest and intrigue,
but then you know, from age like seventeen to twenty
or sixteen to twenty four, and then I was at
PA and then after that started producing smaller things. But anyway,
you never know what's going to be those moments, and
I wanted to point that out for people out there,

(20:13):
of like, your passions and your interests can turn into
something real and something tangible and whatever the scale of that,
you don't really know at the time and until you
pursue it, or if you want to pursue it. And
I just think that was like really cool and really
valuable information. So thanks for sharing.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
That absolutely, you know, and I agree with you, and
I think to put even a finer point on it,
it's like it's a feeling, right, It's a feeling that
you end up chasing. Right. So if you're doing whatever
it is you're doing, and you get that moment where
you've forgotten what time it is and you don't know
how how many hours have passed and you don't care,
then you're in the flow, right, and all of a sudden,

(20:54):
oh shit, maybe I should be trying to do more
of whatever that was, and like going on on the
weekend and you know, doing the shorter films with Adam
or whoever was shooting you know them, I could be
helpful or whatever, like being in these film study classes
like I remember, you know, late I would do late
nights like one two am in the library just studying

(21:15):
or get a chemistry or whatever it was, to get
through my MCATs and all that stuff. And that was
a grind right, and like I could account for every
second I was in the library for that, but like
when I'm out there, you know, building a set or
like you know, operating a camera, or like working with
actors or like even you know, getting crafty for the

(21:35):
people who like are donating their time, it just was like,
oh shit, we're a part of something, We're creating something,
and this there's a joy here and a high that
like I need to investigate, right and like and so
I think anyone is out there who's feeling those moments, like,
you know, think about spending more time chasing that, you know,

(21:56):
in a healthy way. But but yeah, no, I think
I think that's exactly right. We need to pay attention
to what brings us that feeling. You know.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, I'm fully with you on that. Man. I remember
the first film I ever did. I got an opportunity
to work with Tyler Perry through all these crazy series events,
and it was again, I had no experience in acting.
I didn't know anybody here. I didn't know what classes
I was supposed to take. I just knew like I
had to be here, and I knew I wanted to
do this since I was five years old. You know,

(22:26):
and I'd done like plays and stuff when I was ten, eleven, twelve,
But when I got that opportunity, I remember being on
set and it was a whirlwind because we shot an
entire feature in five days, you know. But I remember
these massively long days and let's say I had a
fourteen hour day and they're still filming. I would stay
on set just to learn what the DP was doing,

(22:47):
or to shadow Tyler if I was allowed to, you know,
but spend as much time like because that feeling, especially
in the short span like that. Sometimes when you go
on to set, you know, it is only a couple
of days, or it could be months. You know, it
all depends on what your faing or what role you're
playing in that process. But there is like no better
feeling for me than being on a set, because every

(23:09):
set you learn something from, whether it's the people that
are directing or even the producers behind the scenes, right
the writers, the actors. That whole experience is a whole
new way to shoot something, whether it's a calmedy or
drama or whatever it is. And like you're saying, it's
like getting this high of That's what for me, I
never understood is how someone can be in a I
can understand and get in a bad mood, but like

(23:29):
just innately being a dick on set, you know, or
like ruining that whole vibe is one person. I've seen
it so many times, ruined that experience for everybody where.
I've had people first time their first time ever being
on a set, and I'm like, dude, I'd love this
more than anything, but that guy he does suck. I'm
not gonna lie he does. And they're over here is
saying like my experience is so bad from this dude

(23:51):
that I never want to be on a film set again.
I'm like, you are, that sucks because you're missing out, Like,
at least for me, I'd do it. I say it
all the time, and I've done it plenty, you know,
I'm sure as you have as well. You know, when
you love something like I'll do it for free, I'll
do it. And if there's some way that I could
find out to support myself, I don't care if I
was in the biggest film in the world, if it

(24:11):
was free, I didn't get paid for it. Obviously I
would love to get paid for that, but I would
do it because it's what I love you know what
I mean, And I think to your point, you know,
it's just finding those things that light is sparking you,
you know, like that you're passionate about, and I found
through chasing my dreams. You know, you said you're a
med school drop. I guess technically I can say I
am too, but only because I looked at a piece

(24:32):
of paper that said you could be a doctor and
it's going to take this much time and you make
that much money, right, And I realized I didn't want
to do that and that wasn't my path. So I
dropped out that day exactly. But I went and chased
the dream because I figured I might as well do
something that makes me happy, you know. And that was
the thing as a child, you know that I that

(24:53):
I escaped into that helped me get through my life,
and I knew I wanted to give that back to people.
So like you're saying, that validation you get like the
first time I saw myself in a theater, you know,
I went to the premiere and you see people's reactions
to like a funny moment or something that you did,
you know, or people texting you about the show they
just saw you do you know or you know people
you're working with, and it's like and it's ebbs and

(25:15):
flows in this business, right, So you said ten years,
Like I'm at that point now, man, Like I've done
some really cool stuff. I'm very grateful, but I don't
have the career that I want, you know, or that
I envision for myself. And I'm not going to stop
till I get there. But I have these thoughts every
now and again, these intrusive thoughts that are like what
am I doing?

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Man?

Speaker 1 (25:31):
I'm not making a real living here. Like there's years
why I've done very well, and there's years why I
didn't do anything, you know, And it's the ebb and
flows of that. So it's like, I love what you're
saying of what is it for you that you know?
Was it that moment that you decided like I'm going
to go all in in this now and you're going
to keep going or is it like what kept you
going over those ten years?

Speaker 4 (25:51):
Is kind of what I'm fascinating question. Man. I don't
know if anyone's ever asked me that a partial insanity probably,
you know, see, Like for me, you know, my parents
are immigrants. They settled in Los Angeles area, like in
the late seventies, early eighties. I was born here, my
sister was born here. But you know, as a as

(26:14):
a first generation American, like, you don't have a ton
of options as you're growing up and as far as
professions go, you know, I call it the holy trinity
you got. You can be a lawyer, you can be
a doctor, you can be an engineer. So I chose doctor.
You know, that was the path I was on. And
to say to my folks, after going through, you know,

(26:37):
all the work I had to go through to get
into medical school. I was, I was doing cancer research
at Cedars Sinai, and I was getting ready to, you know,
a couple couple months maybe a few weeks away from
moving to Chicago to start med school. And in that moment,

(26:57):
I was like, I can't do this. I can't do this,
And like I had put in work to get to
that point. I took the MCATs twice, like all that bullshit.
Anyone who's done that knows it's a grind. Like you,
you'd rather do a lot of other stuff than that.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:10):
So so fortunately I didn't, you know, the financial commitment
of a medical school tuition and all that stuff. I
didn't get that far, fortunately, but I did have to
break to my parents like I'm not going down the
good immigrant kid path. I'm gonna spark on this different
path that like, you guys can't help me with that.
I don't have anyone to you know, guide me. That

(27:32):
you guys don't know anybody who can help you know
what I mean. It was like so foreign to them.
It was a shock, and like they didn't talk to
me for a little while, but eventually, you know, I'll
never forget. My mom called me and she's like, I'm
at the grocery store and I just met an agent
and I want to tell him about you. And I'm like, Mom,
oh bored, get stop stop right now. But in that moment,

(27:54):
I recognize, oh shit, she's kind of getting on board, right, So,
you know, I think part of what motivated me over
that amount of time, and it was more than ten years, dude,
it was probably like more like twelve to thirteen years.
What mode of me during that time were a couple
of things. One, I was striking out on this endeavor

(28:18):
that like no one in my family or whatever had
any idea how to even you know, approach so I
wanted to, you know, be a pioneer in this sector
of life, right as an artist and just in the
film and TV business and entertainment. But I also was
curious to see how much I could learn and how

(28:41):
I could push myself creatively and see kind of what
what was trapped inside this human being inside of me
and kind of what my unique voice was. I was
always interested in sort of like carving that out and
figuring out like what do I have to say? Like
what do I care about? What's interesting to me, what's
funny to me, what's sad to me?

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Like, so that stuff's really important.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
Yeah, I think I think that's becomes your compass, you know,
and it helps you helps your work, I don't want
to say stand out, but helps your work be more
representative of you. And and I think in the long
run that's always an important thing when you're consuming so
much stuff. Right, Yeah, it was not always easy, but
I did. I did.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
You know.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
It's like those little those little like you know, if
you're like playing a video game or something, and like
you run into some like HP points or something like that,
and like just enough, like you know, link got just
enough heart to like keep going to the next level. Yeah,
so there's just enough like little pieces of heart, you know,
over those thirteen years to like keep me going, keep

(29:44):
me going, working with interesting people or learning from interesting people,
or you know, making a little thing here that like
got a reaction or like whatever. But yeah, I think,
you know, all all those things factored into keeping me going.
But I did reach a point, very honestly, like it
did reach a point where I was like, Okay, there
will be a line here that eventually I will if

(30:08):
some career hasn't sort of like made itself known, and
I can identify a way to support my growing family.
I just had our first we just had our first kid.
Then then I do need to I feel like it's
you know, my wife supported me this and for all
these years to help me find my path and pursue
what I want to pursue. And I want to repay

(30:29):
that favor by saying, Okay, cool, I'll still find a way.
I promise, I'll find a way to be artistically satisfied,
but I will bring some WT on come home or
you know whatever. So yeah, you get to that point,
and I think that's just the way that it worked
for me. I know, some people who don't have that
line and probably will never have that expiration date. I

(30:50):
like to call it expiration date, you know, and not
to say people have to have that, but it worked
for me because it allowed me to you were saying,
all in right, I think there's an all in version
where you're committed to the work that you do, You're
committed to the things you want to go after, but
at the same time, you embrace having other aspects of

(31:12):
your life. You embrace like the interests in other things.
And you know, for me, my wife was the one
that keep me grounded and helped me see that there's
a world outside of our business that is rich and beautiful,
and like there's the power of experiencing things therefore informing

(31:33):
your work. You know that that feedback loop is an
important one to remember because I feel like if you
get too buried into I got a grind, I gotta grind.
How many people have it called today? I got a network?
I gotta I gotta write three scripts this year. I gotta.
I mean, that's all good to like stay on track
and and all that, but don't forget to experience, don't

(31:53):
forget to like find other interests, like I'm I've gone
crazy for pickleball. Like I was straight up discovered pickleball
like six week months ago, and I wake up thinking
about it, I go to sleep thinking about it. I
don't know who the fuck invented the sport, but like
it is very addictive and like terrifying at the same time,

(32:17):
but so much fun. But like it just you know,
I only bring that up to say, like, you know,
I have a very similar level of passion about pickleball
that I do about creating art, you know, and it's
like just just getting out there and living as much
gosh darn life as you can, you know, because that
informs your work.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, dude, hell yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
The a few things. One is my Pops always says
the best thing that ever happened to him was failing
the LSATs and you know, not becoming a lawyer so
you could kind of get into real estate and do
all that. It kind of reminds me of this golf
analogy to where it's like you got to enjoy the
struggle with golf because you're not gonna just go out

(32:59):
and be good, right right, right, Like It's essentially a
similar thing with like any type of career, right like
you just got to go out there and enjoy the process.
And you know, I think you it's nice hearing your
perspective because you have such a positive outlook on it.
You were there to learn, you were there to grow,
Like we all are, right, but you know a lot

(33:21):
of people just kind of get fed up or aren't
as passionate about it, and you know, just kind of
fade away.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
But but it's inspiring to hear.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
Oh, thank you. I want I want to mention. Brock
was saying he had friends who've been on set and
like that sort of thing, but then got a bad
experience from an at or from someone on set. One
thing I want to share with whomever is listening if
they do get those opportunities to be on set and
to learn and be exposed, Like, pay attention, right like,

(33:52):
if even if it's not genuine, make it look like
you want to be there, right like, Because we pay attention,
we are seeing the folks who are there, who are
actually into what is happening, who want to learn. And
it goes a very long way if you are seen
as somebody who like actually cares and is like watching
the take and is listening to the department heads talk

(34:15):
to each other and listening to what the actor has
to say and listening to what the writer, directors saying,
producers saying, and just like you know, yes, fly on
the wall, but also like be inquisitive, you know, like
at the right time right, like appropriate timing, but be curious.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
You know.

Speaker 4 (34:30):
Like the one of the things that people forget is like,
as as people who make stuff, we like to talk
about the stuff we make, you know what I mean.
And maybe sometimes it feels like, oh, I don't want
to talk to this person about that, I don't want
to bother them whatever. At the end of the day,
people want to talk about the stuff they're bleeding for
and spending so much of their time creating. They don't
mind talking about it at the appropriate times, you know.

(34:53):
So like be inquisitive, be curious, and listen, and I
think that'll get you very far on a set. You know.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
That's great advice. Yeah, I've felt that too, like just
being on any set I've ever been on it, even
just shadowing directors. You sit there and it's like there's
these in between moments at the right time there it's
like the most fun, you know, it's it's jokes get
told and and you know, memories get brought up or
like even learning there sometimes there's been times where I've

(35:21):
actually given advice from other times that I've learned and
helped us shot and I'm not even a part of
the project, you know, But just because people are different processes, right,
Like like when I've shadowed Tyler, for example, I learned
his formula, you know, and how he's able to pump
things out so quickly, right, But it's also the way
he shoots, you know, like how many people do you
know that shoot three cam simultaneously, two over overs and

(35:42):
why at the same time. It doesn't happen too often,
but it's interesting because you know, you do one take,
two takes, and then you have a whole scene done
and you move on to the next thing. But for me,
it's like it's exactly that, like the more you know,
the better I found as an actor, are the better
after I'm going to be when I know what the
director's doing, and then I know what the grips are

(36:02):
doing and I know what the writers had to do
to get us to this point, you know, the whole process.
It takes. It took the load off of me as
an actor of like, yeah, I might be in front
of the camera, but I'm like five percent or ten
not even maybe not even ten percent of this whole thing, Like, yeah,
I got to make this thing go. Yeah, and I
got to give everything. I've got to give one hundred
and ten of everything I have to offer. But at

(36:23):
the same time, like I had anxiety my first time
on set and the cameras right on me, looking at
the face, and I couldn't even get my words out,
you know. And once I got past that and I
realized how much bigger than collaborative of this whole process is.
It gave me a freedom to step back and just be,
you know, and just do my work right. But through learning,
through being inquisitive and learning the whole process it takes

(36:43):
it It's like a it's an army to make a
fountain down.

Speaker 4 (36:46):
Oh, It's that's what makes it so fun, right, It's
like there, I don't think there's you know, you have
sports like golf, field, sports like football, right, Like this
is the most collaborative, ultimate collaboration, you know, as far
as art forms go, you know, and I know we've
got our tours out there, who like, you know, really
it kind of begins and ends with a singular person's voice.

(37:09):
But at the same time, there's still tens, maybe hundreds
of people, maybe thousands of people depending on what the
film is, who have to work in concert, right, and
and that's a high that like, you know, you know,
you can say it's like going into battle. I don't
want to compare it to something like that, but it's, yeah,
you go into this stressful, challenging thing together, you know,

(37:31):
and like the goal is everyone to elevate each other's
work and create something memorable or lasting or you know effective.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
Do you have a great time for this?

Speaker 2 (37:43):
I'm smiling over here, so I uh, you know, I
shadowed Doug Allen for a couple of months on Entourage.
It was one of the later seasons. I think he's a.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
Great pickleball player. Doug holler at me, another giant.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
But you know that set was by especially like season
six of A show, right or five or six.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
It was very relaxed. Everyone knows what they need to do.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
The ad was a guy named Gary Goldman, who also
did Shameless House Lives a little bit Animal.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Kingdom, which I want to talk about with you.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
And you know, Gary was allowed to kind of be
the floor general as the ad assistant director, and Doug
was able to kind of focus more on the actors
and you know, just getting all that and you know,
Jerry's messing around, telling jokes and just kind of like
that vibe and you kind of see by that point
it's kind of like a well oiled machine, where like
Brock is saying, and You're saying, like people are actually

(38:47):
able to relax a little bit more and enjoy it
a little bit more because the basic things that need
to get done are being done because they have like
a system. But speaking of Animal Kingdom, I kind of
wanted to Animal Kingdom kind of wanted to tie into
some other work that you've done and some other shows
you you've been on, So what was that experience?

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Like just Animal Kingdom was one of the shows that,
like I originally was just a fan of the show.
I was watching the show, no sort of like agenda
behind it or anything. I loved the show. I loved
how dark it was, I loved the performances. You know,
just the aesthetic of the show. Being from southern California myself,

(39:29):
like just that that ocean side vibe they had going
on and cool, cool, you know, sort of translation for
the American audience from the Australian movie. So I was
a big fan of the show and I remember just
saying too, I think maybe my agent or something like
that is like, I really did this show. This is
really cool. And then somewhere along the line I had

(39:52):
done some work for Warner Brothers and that that was
a Warner Horizon show, which is I guess the equivalent
of like their pay cables studio or or whatever pay
cable or just regular. No, it was like like they
produce things like on for for HBO and like, you know,
little I guess, I don't know whatever cable. I'll just

(40:14):
say cable studio. No, no judgment on the content. So
somewhere along the line someone had reached out to me
from that suit and I was like, oh, we heard
your fan of Animal Kingdom, Like would you like to
talk about me? And then I had taken a pitch
out a book was coming out, and I took a

(40:35):
pitch with a writer's name is Matt Kester, and we
took a pitch out together and really hit it off.
And Matt is one of the co EPs and writers
of Animal Kingdom. And I told me, I love your
show man, you know, it's fantastic. I'm really digging it.
So a couple of years ago by and Matt and
I stay in touch, and then this thing pops up,

(40:56):
this animal Kingdom thing that they I think it was
during the last season with a third to last episode
to the series, and they were looking for somebody and
had I had a couple of nice meetings and stuff,
and they offered me to shoot their third to last
episode and talk about like a well well oiled machine
and like, you know, they really had everything dialed in

(41:18):
and like for someone to sort of brand new to
the show to step in the third to last episode
could have really like thrown a wrench in the gears,
you know, like because they were cruising towards the end.
But what was really cool is the episode that I
directed ended up being written by Matt. Just by chance,
just by chance, he was the writer of that episode.

(41:39):
I remember calling him from my house in North Carolina.
I called him and he lives in Hawaii, and I'm like,
it was like six hour time different than I helped
this full pix up and I'm like, dude, you're you're
writing my fucking episode. Like so we totally vibed on
that and it was so much fun. It was during
COVID but you know, he wasn't on set, but like
any anything that popped up, I just hit him up
on the sell. I'd be like, do you want it

(41:59):
to go down? Like this was your vision? And so
we would talk about things. So it was really one
of those fun moments in this business where like you
get to work with a friend and but yeah, that
that show was so it was so cool to be
a fan of something and then eventually without any like
I didn't expect to work on the show, but to
have that opportunity was just a very cool, like hollywoody

(42:22):
type moment, you know what I mean. And the cast
absolutely incredible, like love love those guys, and you know,
it just was a lovely place to work and very
talented people. And yeah, we we did a very cool,
you know, interesting episode, and I will I will definitely
cherish that that time.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
That's real full circle to you're going from you know,
we're with Matt and going to pitch right and then
to directing one of his episodes on a show that
you're a fan of, Like that's when it's like for me,
what I would call that is just being in alignment, man,
like you're in just where you're supposed to be. I
feel anyways, are there any shows that how do I

(43:07):
word this?

Speaker 4 (43:08):
Like?

Speaker 1 (43:09):
I guess it's more just like what's been one of
your favorite shows with obviously not like putting any other
ones down, but they had like a more of a
fun experience. Or have you enjoyed a process that maybe
or maybe like an obstacle that you didn't know was
going to rise and you overcame it in a way
that you know.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
I mean, I think every show is unique, every project,
right is unique. I have to go back to Lucifer
in that I've done seven episodes for them, so at
a certain point it felt like coming home, you know,
every maybe after the third one, it was like coming
to see all my buddies, you know what I mean.
And I was like there was a joy in that that.

(43:48):
Like if I saw that on my schedule, I knew
for this this month I was gonna be shooting Loosier.
I would just be like I'm about to basically go
to like the best party for a month, you know,
and have the best time. And so I think, yeah,
there's just the frequency and I was very fortunate to get,
you know, opportunities, multiple opportunities to work on that show.
So you get tighter with these people as you and

(44:11):
I have done shows that I've done more than one episode,
and with all those shows, you know, you just get
tighter and closer and closer. So I can only imagine
like a entourage or something like that, people who are
you know, creating these shows or bringing them to market
and like it is their job to produce this show
for four or five, six, seven years. Like I remember

(44:34):
my second episode of TV. I did a ncis La
and it was their tenth season, and they were so tight,
like the crew and cast everyone just like best friends.
And it was like they were telling me stories like yeah,
like our kids have grown up together like ten years. Yeah,
like their kids are like going to college now, and

(44:56):
like you know, they all know each other. It was
like such a cool It's like one of the parts
of our business that you know, is really heartwarming and
makes it worth all those crazy long hours, is like
to know that you're sharing this with other people and
they know what you're going through and you develop these
lifelong relationships and bonds, you know. So so I'd say, like,
it's always fun to come back to a show, but

(45:19):
every show has its unique challenges. I'm trying to think
of something that was like really you know, out of nowhere,
but like I've been involved in you know, scenes, or
I should say, like episodes where like they try and
shoot three things, like three different episodes in one day,
so you've got like three directors, like sharing crew, sharing

(45:41):
department has sharing actors and this and that, and like
in those moments though, you just you flow. You're like,
I'm gonna go with the flow. I'm gonna be an
additive piece to this puzzle. I'm not gonna complain. I'm
not gonna gripe that I don't have, you know these
things that I want. I'm gonna ring the vibration up,
you know. And I think that's always served me really well,

(46:04):
no matter what the challenge has been, is like you
just you just roll with it and be a positive force.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, not not complain about it, but how do you
problem solve it? How do you fix how do you
fix this problem? Right? Like? And I think that's one
of my favorite things about whether it be directing or
acting or just anything in filmmaking is like it is
a series of endless problems that you have to navigate
and figure out because you think you'll be shooting a
beautiful scene out in the sun and it's downpouring, you know,

(46:30):
and it's like, well, can we make this work in
the script or do we have to do something else
or can we just flip it and shoot the scene
we're supposed to shoot four days from now today, like right,
But yeah, it's it's really figuring that out, man. But
I love hearing that. Yeah, I think you got someone.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Oh no, I mean my head's like spinning with that,
you know, producing stuff, It's all it is is problem solving. Yeah,
Like it's improvising and solving problems, like on the go.
You're like the ideal director to work with if you're
even like halfway suggesting like I'm gonna be add ive,
you know for sure, that's like the greatest thing in

(47:06):
the world. I mean, it'd be so fun to work
together on something.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
What what was like the defining factor or what made
you decide that you wanted to be an actor? I'm
talking to myself.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
I haven't come to that moment.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
But directing, why did why did you choose directing? You know.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
I I think because I recognized in myself that maybe
my superpower was bringing people together and and getting everyone
to like work, like I said in concert, towards a
common goal.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Right.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
So I take pride in bringing you know, the best
out in other people.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
Right.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
I'm not going to sit here and pretend like, you know,
it's me that brings a genius. You know, it's not
that at all. But I do take a lot of
pride and care and like finding that galvanizing thing that
brings talent people who are way more talented than me
together to create something as a whole, as a team,
you know. So I think directing was a natural sort

(48:15):
of like I identified that, like, you know, Okay, you're
surrounded by all these super talented people, Like how how
do you like connect those dots and connect those strings
and get everyone to work to the common to a
common goal. So that challenge was really interesting for me.
And I kind of was always that type of person

(48:36):
growing up in high school and stuff. I was kind
of always the storyteller. But like I sort of was
able to straddle like different friend groups, you know, and
it was very seamless and never a problem. And I
guess to you know to me, and I really enjoyed
having friends across all different groups or whatever it was,

(48:57):
and so I was excited by that. So I feel like,
you know, when you sip onto a film set, you
don't know everybody at first, and like people come from
different backgrounds and you know, but they're all there for
a reason, right, Can you activate the talent inside these
people and bring it to a new level, but then
have the have the pieces fit together?

Speaker 1 (49:16):
You know?

Speaker 4 (49:16):
So I think that's that's, you know, why I was
attracted to it when I knew I wanted to do it.
I think definitely, like I mentioned bad Boys, right, seeing
Bad Boys, you know, at least it showed me, you know,
I grew up. I think my parents were like the
first family on our block to get HBO, and so

(49:39):
we got HBO, and back then there wasn't that much content,
Like HBO would like rerun their blockbuster movies, like you
could watch the eighth Saturday night at eight pm was
their premiere, but if you got up early enough at
six am, they would play it first at six am.
So I'd fucking get up. I'd go downstairs, fire up
the TV and watch the six am movie and I'll

(49:59):
never forget that. Maybe the first weekend we got HBO,
Predator was the movie and I sat down, everyone's asleep,
fire up Predator, and I'm that was it for me.
In that moment. I was like, I love, Yes, I love.
This is my love language. This is how I'm going
to communicate the rest of my life.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
My brother and I had the Predator and Blade vhs
and those were like our two goudes.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Those are it man, So, uh, you know, that became
like the beginning of this love affair with just TV.
And I think my parents, as as sort of immigrant
parents were, you know, didn't really know how to introduce
it America to us, and like TV was a great option,
you know, it was right there. And so I kind
of learned my English from television and and you know,

(50:44):
it became my best buddy for a very long time.
So I think, uh, you know, once I got to
Bad Boys, that's when I started to see like the
artistry of filmmaking. That sounds interesting, but like it woke
me up because those were the movies I was watching
at that time. I wasn't, you know, firing up Sits
and Kane and you know, as a nine year old

(51:05):
or whatever. But like Bad Boys was like, oh my god,
Like whatever this guy Michael Bay is doing is like,
so is doing something to me? Like the way is
he wraps around in slow motions. Will Smith and Martin
Lawrence stand up? And so like it just started. I
asked myself like who was making those decisions? Like who
was envisioning this thing? And when I when it started

(51:28):
to you know, narrow down and you realize, oh, the
director or the writer, director or whatever it is has
a lot to do with that. You know, That's that's
where I wanted to be. I wanted to be in
the mix of that, in between all those things.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
You know, I think there's a reason Bad Boys three
can come out like fifteen years later and still make
like a crap load of money.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
I could definitely see.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
It's It's interesting you mentioned Bad Boys because you know
I watched Obliterated. So first off, congrats on the success
of Obliterating on Netflix. I mean it's been number one,
it's been charting, and it's and it's really fun, right,
and like I can definitely tell like some Lucifer similar
type stuff of like action comedy, right, And I love

(52:14):
hearing that Bad Boys is like one of your inspirations
because I can tell that in some of your work, right,
I think you are so great at that action comedy content.
And you know, essentially you mentioned teamwork and coming together
and I noticed that immediately and Obliterated, you have like

(52:35):
all these different types of people from all different types
of walks of life, I should say, and but they
feel like one cohesive group. And I think, like that
is really interesting to point out too, because you could
tell and like after talking to you about it, it's like, yep,
like that's what is so appealing to me about this
right now.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
So congrats on Obliterated, And I don't really have a question.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
Thank you know. I feel super grateful to be a
part of that experience. All credit to you know, Josh
and Hated and Jonathan and Dina over at Counterbalance. They
created an awesome show and one that I just immediately
resonated with when I read the scripts, heard the pitch
all that stuff, Like I was like, oh God, this one,

(53:23):
this is gonna suck if I don't do this job.
Like I was like, I knew that it was in
my wheelhouse and that I wanted to be involved. So yeah,
all credit goes to them, but just being being involved
the cast was incredible, you know, the the tightrope walk
that they had to do, as you know, making the
audience laugh yet also making them care and just in

(53:43):
these really like absurd scenarios, you know, but they just
knocked it out of the park. And it's very it's
very gratifying to see, you know, an audience respected appreciate it,
enjoy it, you know, like you said, you know, rocking
it in the top couple of spots of Netflix these
last week or two. So yeah, I mean I hope

(54:04):
it gets I hope it keeps going and you know,
they keep telling the stories of the obliterated squad. And
but yeah, I think that's that's one of those moments
where like that's probably of the television projects that I've
done closest to that moment right so far where I
watch Fired Up Bad Boys for that first time and
you know, saw saw what was going on in that film,

(54:25):
and like I sort of always trying to get closer
to that touch that a little bit.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
You know, what, what are some films that you watch regularly,
I guess you could say like one of them like
you've put on like once a year or something like that.

Speaker 4 (54:40):
You know, it's so funny, man, Like, since I became
a dad, thank you. Yeah, well it's been a while
now I've got I got two I've got two kids,
five and ten. But since the second one rolled along, like,
oh my goodness, finding time to watch, you know, things,
whether they're old or new or whatever, it becomes tough

(55:01):
because you're you're focusing on creating your own stuff and
and uh and when you're not doing that, you're focused
on the family and you know, other things you got
going on. So I would say, you know, I kind
of lean more into television, Like I end up there's
like anytime I go on location and I'm shooting, there's

(55:22):
like these shows that I like run through top to
bottom in the background of my time on you know,
on location, it usually is in this order. It's like
The Office, Like I'll cruise the Office like all the
seasons and I'll just let it ride. And I'm a
huge fan of the original British Office. Yeah, just major,
I'll I was blow. I was another like seminal moment

(55:45):
for me watching that series. That was before I chose
to try and become a filmmaker, and I watched that
and that was that really helped sort of guide me
into the direction I end up going for better for worse.
But the yeah, the American Office. So I'll just put
that on loop in the background. I'll get through that.
Maybe that'll take me like a week or two if

(56:05):
I if I still have time, I'm on location, I'll
probably end up firing up from top to bottom Workaholics,
So I'll just let that cruise. I'm a huge fan
of those guys and their comedy, and so that'll be
a part of my just like meditation on location. And
you know, usually it's it's it's common I'll go into

(56:26):
parks and rec you know, it's just stuff that is
you know that tickles me in a way that you know,
either reminds me of my youth or like being a kid,
or or just reminds me to laugh, you know, because
I feel like, you know, you're inundated with so much shit.
So I guess I would say to answer your question,

(56:47):
I try. I probably avoid the heavy drama stuff own,
not because I don't like movies like that. I mean
probably my favorite movie is probably a shosh and Redemption,
you know, like I just that was another one I
sat down in front of the TV. And I think
I was like eleven or twelve and watch this thing
by myself sitting you know, Chris Cross Apple sauce right

(57:08):
in front of the tube and just watch the whole
thing beginning to end. And I was floored. I was
like power, power of cinema, you know, power of movies.
But yeah, it's usually stuff that like keeps my vibration high.
You know that I'll just loop and go through. But
I'm very excited. Oh really, to answer your question, the
one film that I watch a lot is Nacho Libra. Yeah,

(57:32):
I'll fire up Nacho Libra. Like if you if we
end up getting in like texts battles with each other,
you'll get like forty gifts from Nacho Libray. That's just
how I communicate. That's it, Like you'll see text to
my mom with Nacho Libray.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
I just fall it. I just saw this hilarious skit
on Instagram the other day was all like like five
Nacho Libres attacking this dude saying he was gonna take
stuff out on orphans and then he just pops about
of nowhere and they all just attack him at the
same time.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
I mean, the real joint. Now. I was like watching
that with my daughters. So my ten year old will
like just we'll be in the in the middle of
the house and she'll scream across the hall resent books,
you know, so well, just we'll just go after each other.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
It's just it's just that's that's where like, you know,
that's the power of the art form of like you know,
film and TV and stuff like you can connect us
over generations or whatever. So it's it's it's fun to
have that experience now with my kids.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Shout out to Jack Black for sure.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Those are definitely a lot of the you know, same
comedies I'll fire up as well. We had, you know,
a great uh sit down with Ben Silverman and the
one of the EPs on on the Office, and it's
it's almost like what you even say when you're talking
to him and just like just quote it, like there's
so much I want to.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Talk to you about and ask about.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Do you have any upcoming stuff or anything in the
pipeline that you can share.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
Yeah. TV wise, I'll be doing some Cobra Kai in
the new year. Very excited about that, joining that show,
joining them for their last season and same team that
produced Obliterated, So I'm unfortunate and grateful to be joining
them in the dojo. So that's a big deal for me.
I'm from the San Fernando Valley, so those movies held

(59:16):
serious significance for me. So yeah, just once again the
full circle Hollywood thing, like just being a part of
a tiny, tiny, teeny part of you know that show
it's is a is a dream for sure.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
I mean that'll be incredible.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
That's such a great show and talking about one of
the best like reboots comebacks of all time. Right, it's
almost like Doctor Who in that way of like just
bringing something back fully. The Jerry Wintrob was, you know,
like an uncle to me and like my mentor.

Speaker 4 (59:46):
Well I love his documentary.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
Yeah his way, yeah, his way.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
Yeah, I always tell that Ferguson story.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Dude.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
It's so yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
My Pops is in it for like a brief set like, yeah,
he gives like a little interview in it. A lot
not a lot of people. Alan Polski I wrote and
directed it. I think that's great documentary. Yeah, they played
club right, Yeah, I fired on and just wait for
my dad's like thirty No, but you know he was

(01:00:18):
he did all the Karate Kids and that was, you know,
his thing. And Susan Eakins, who you know, was kind
of like my aunt if Jerry's my uncle. I believe
she's still an ep on on those series. I gotta
I gotta check out if she's still working on it
for Cobra Kai. But that is so exciting because I
would just I didn't think i'd be laughing that hard

(01:00:40):
at like a Cobra Kai remake or like a Karate
Kid remake, but I just so freaking enjoyable.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
So I'll be keeping an eye out for that.

Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
Oh yeah, no, that sounds good, please do. Yeah, no,
I'm I'm more excited as another show that I was
a fan of. Yeah, just straight up fan of. And
the stars aligned to be able to participate in a
very small way. So it's it's very exciting, very exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
That's so cool when you need to be a part
of History of Like that's I mean, Cobra Kai just
in general is so iconic and so special for filmmaking
and for films in general, but like to have it
come forward now and you'd be able to work on
it so cool. Like I felt like that when I
worked on History of the World Part two. But I
was just like, is this really happening right now? And

(01:01:27):
I'm working on something with mel Brooks Like I never
would have imagined in a million years that's something like
that would get to happen, right, But when it does,
you're like, dude, I grew up watching stuff like this,
like or watching that you know specifically, but you get
to see it and then you could to be a
part of your Like, dude, this is this doesn't make
any sense? You know? Yeah, I don't know for me,
like that stuff came out where I was even born.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah, Like you remember how bad I freaked out when
you told me you're gonna be in that shows?

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
Nice?

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Yeah, I grew up watching all of Melbrooks movies and
y know, History of the World says. My mom still
will quote to me, it's good to be the King.
That's the favorite line, and I'll still get that quote.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Are there any things that like dream projects or whether
it's a remake of an old show that hasn't been
done yet, or is there anything that you've like you
aspire to do one day?

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
Wow, that's a that's a big question to.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Yeah, if you asked me that, like, shut.

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
Up, I really you know, I think, you know, there's
certainly like properties out there i'd love to, you know,
say hey, give me, give me the reins, let me
take a crack. Probably all of them are spoken for,
you know, or very difficult to get the rights to.
But I think I think, you know, at least just
getting to a place where you know, I've done enough,

(01:02:47):
shown enough where I can you know, inspire people's trust
and get them to let me take a crack and
take those opportunities and know that like, Okay, well, whatever
he's going to do, it's going to be unique, it's
going to have his point of view on it, and
it's going to be something you know special. So that's

(01:03:09):
that's kind of just what I'm working toward in general, right,
is to continue to build that trust with you know,
the the people who you know, have the have the
rights and have the you know, material and all that.
So you know, I think, yeah, when I think of
careers that I admire, right, like, the one person really

(01:03:30):
stands out to me obviously, like we all are in
of of Christopher Nolan, We're all in off like Tarantino,
Edgar Wright, like all these you know, great filmmakers with
a unique voice. But like, I love what Sean Levy
has done right with his career, Like ye, just all
the different things he's done and where he started, where
he's at now and film television. You know, it's just

(01:03:53):
really inspiring. And uh, you know, I think if I
could craft even a little tiny, you know, slimmer carbon
piece of that off, I feel like that would be
time well spent, like you know, a good a good
road to go down. So yeah, there's so many inspiring
people in our business, and I think when I just

(01:04:15):
think about the variety in producing different things and the
diversity and work and stuff, he definitely stands out to me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Yeah, absolutely, well, I definitely you know, want to give
Roger Minchef and Rogue Matter a shout out. You know,
they were instrumental in kind of getting us all together.
And you know, obviously we mentioned the panel the comic
con we all did in the booth and we had
together and all that, but quick shout out to Roger and.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Then for.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Roger Rogers.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Is there any advice you'd give to young directors or
people trying to break into business or like, like, what
would you say as far as maybe to help them
grow as a director, become a better director, or kind
of just navigating the waters.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
I think, you know, our business is constantly changing, right,
So like the stuff that was available to me when
I was coming up, you know, I don't even know
if it's applicable now or what I mean. I think
there's a lot. The cool thing is there's more ways
to get your work seen than there ever has been, right, Yeah,
So I think that's an important thing to recognize, is like,

(01:05:25):
you know, if you have work that says something that
that speaks to someone out there, you know, don't be
afraid to share it. Put it out there and let
you know audiences find it. Right, So I think that's important.
So I guess the note behind that is really like
be bold, right, be courageous as an artist, you that

(01:05:46):
that is what you are hopefully one day being paid for.
You know, trust your instinct because that truly is the
thing that separates you. You know, we could all we
could all just copy the blueprint and maybe we wouldn't
really make a lot of headway or or I don't
want to say stand out, but have have work that
says something a little louder, you know, So I think, yeah,

(01:06:10):
just just trust your instinct know that this is a
you know, our world makes it seem like everyone's in
overnight success and it happens so easily, and all you
got to do is, you know, move to LA or
New York or whatever, and it's going to happen. The
reality is like one percent of one percent, right of

(01:06:32):
people actually get that awesome story. It's just that the
media publicizes it to such a degree that it feels ubiquitous.
It feels like it's always happening, right, So so cool.
If that is your story, hell yeah, like write it right,
but likely it might not be, So just be prepared
to put in the work. Surround yourself with you know,

(01:06:55):
really you know, people who are doing who are If
you can't surround yourself with people who are doing what
you want to do, surround yourself with people who are
interested in what you want to do going down that
same road, because like y'all are going to eventually help
each other, you know what I mean. Like some of
my favorite times were like working with other young filmmakers
and things and helping each other out and get it

(01:07:17):
out there, and like eventually those people will you know,
either either become something or you know, they'll move on
to something else. But like at some point, if you're
still hanging around, still doing your thing, those those people
become connections. Those people become you know, forces of hopefully
positive you know things for you. So I think you know,

(01:07:38):
at the end of the day, you need to create
to have something to talk about, right, I think you know,
talk thinking about something you want to write, or talking
about something you want to write year after year after year.
It's that it's that moment that you decide to execute
where like things begin to change. Right, So even if

(01:07:58):
it's hot garbage, you know, that's I'm not saying go
out and waste your time, but I'm saying go out
and make something to talk shit about, because otherwise you're just,
you know, in abstract talking shit about something. You're talking
yourself down off of something, and like nothing will ever
get accomplished with that. So, whether it's a silly little short,

(01:08:20):
I remember I I was like a cameraman for the
for the the LA Kings, the hockey team. They had
this like kind of like like a little show that
they did and uh for like their YouTube channel or something.
And I went and I would you know, beat, I
would film it they had on air talent or whatever.

(01:08:41):
I would film it, I would cut it. And I
did that for like a few months, right, Well, one weekend,
they had like a Sony DVX like three hundred if
if that I think that was the name of the camera.
Definitely a higher end than I had any access to,
right and I had it for the weekend. So I
was like, oh fuck that, I'm gonna shoot up because
so I took that. I took that camera ticket home

(01:09:05):
and shot a short with it, you know, And and
I had my dog and my dog's best friend, dog
was staying at my house and with my my parents'
friends were over, and I shot this little like you know, noir,
like three minutes short with the dogs and my parents
friend and it is and it was one of like
the well, you know, one of my most favorite things

(01:09:26):
that I've done. It can be found on YouTube. It's
called the Badge, but I mean it's it's it's ship
but ship in the best possible way. Like I I
had the resource. I Yeah, I had a weekend. I
could have chilled, I could have hung out, but instead
I shot something, cut it and it was done, and
you know that that's that's that flexing of the muscle, right, Like,

(01:09:49):
just go out and make ship. It will get better
and you will have ship to talk about. And that's
that's you got to have something to hold at the
end of the day.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
That was my entire journey into comic book writing was
I think I did thirty drafts of the first issue.
That's to make something that's how garbage and throw it
out and throw it out and rewrite it and then
just keep going.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
Yeah, I'm just imagining somebody from the Kings just having
it like.

Speaker 4 (01:10:19):
Dogs and where was the camera that weekend? Yeahs.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
I have an interesting kind of culture question, like especially
because you're, you know, in the comedy genre sphere of culture.
So like the Doctor Who sixtieth anniversary special just came
out and you you had David Tennant, Catherine Tate, Russell
t Davies, like you had the action packed all star

(01:10:48):
cast returning, and then you know, they come out and
the kind of without even giving a stylistic analysis of
like the things, the facts are that the ratings were
about you know, about a third or half of the
fiftieth anniversary, and I was just kind of thinking of, Okay,
there's a ten year change like, has society changed where

(01:11:11):
you have the same show, you know, same people that
made it popular and a good comeback, But what was
it that kind of had half more than half the
audience leave? And you know, I'm just curious to ask
you because you're so much in the mix and you're
you're making these shows and you're out there doing it, like,

(01:11:33):
do you notice anything that or is that like one
specific example that's kind of hard to touch on or
what would you say?

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
I mean, I don't have sort of access to, you know,
all the data and things like that, but I was
a normally Norman ly Ar recently passed away, and I
was listening to an interview that he did, and you know,
they talked about All in the Family was reaching fifty
million viewers a week, fifty million in the seventies when

(01:12:01):
it was out. There's nothing that touches that on like
a scripted level. So I feel like the only explanation
that I can think of is, you know, especially for
a show like that that is such a property that
means so much to people, is you know, over those
ten years, just too many avenues to consume, right, too

(01:12:22):
too much division and distraction in terms of how we
are getting the things we love and there's just no
longer this mechanism to get those bigger audiences. So I
think I think niche programming will continue to rise, like
people are going to find that specific thing that they're
into and maybe two hundred thousand people watch that show

(01:12:43):
on a weekly basis or whatever. But like you know,
I think it's probably a product of just more services,
more platforms, more content of probably over those ten years,
we probably hit that peak of as far as TV
goes in terms of production, right, five hundred and fifty
TV productions in one year or something like that. Yeah,
so I think it's probably has to do a little

(01:13:04):
bit with like just audience distraction.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
Yeah, that makes sense for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:13:08):
That's my best guess.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
I mean I kind of feel that same way, where
one it's the there's so many options out there, but
at the same time, like I keep you know, we
went to a panel where they were talking about, you know,
why ninety nine percent of movies suck in Hollywood, right,
And my take on it was more of and it's
not even that I agree with that, it's just that
my take is that there's so much content to produce,

(01:13:32):
and there's so much content being made all the time,
so you're just consuming so much. So then all of
a sudden, if you had five hundred things made and
even one hundred of them are good, but you're still
consuming those other four hundred, it's going to get thrown
in that mix, and then all of a sudden, it's
like it's diluted. No, Like I don't feel like more
of a numbers game. It's more of a numbers game. Yeah,
And but again also it comes down to filmmaking. Who's

(01:13:55):
making the films, who's writing the storytelling? That the ability
to get stories made is so much easier now, right,
But it's to a degree, but it's it's just the
evolution of it is. There's so much out there now
where it's like even most people, a lot of you
you ask any kid, I feel like who they love
what movies and show? It's more actually what who's their

(01:14:16):
favorite YouTuber? You know? So the way that we exactly
so it's just the way we digest content now is
just so different. So I think there's that element. But
every now and again, there's shows and films that peak
through and you're like, damn, that's good. You can't even deny.
That's good when you think about it. At the same time, like,
I'm still thinking about Gladiator three times a week, you know.

(01:14:38):
But a Game of Thrones incredible why, you know, especially
the first seven seasons. Incredible show. But like I don't
think about it as much as I think about Gladiator, sure,
you know, or even many of the shows from the
nineties and you know, the early two thousands stuff like that.
So it's just kind of it's different now, you know,
it's just different.

Speaker 4 (01:14:57):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, I agree. I agree. Well, I
mean I think it should. You know, there's an encouraging
side of that though, too, right, there's more ways to
reach specific audiences, you know, in the event that, like
the stuff you're creating is ultraspecific or you know, maybe
not as broad or general. So I think that's that's

(01:15:17):
a really special you know, aspect of the world we're
living in now too. But don't let that shy you
away from making that thing, getting out there and creating. Man,
there's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. It's so
much fun.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
There's this quote I heard a long time ago, and
it was the matter of being created creative versus competitive.
You know, it's like, if you're competitive, you can only
be as good or maybe a little bit better as
somebody at something, right, But if you're creative, you're making
your own thing, and then eventually maybe people become competitive there.
But that for me struck court of like that's interesting. Yeah,

(01:15:51):
I never wanted to be like anybody else growing up.
I just want to be me, you know, and whatever
that is, and however I show up in the world,
you know. But at the same time, like to be
able to create. You can make a world, man, you
can make up. You could take someone into a film
and you get lost in that world and take them
on a journey and make them forget about everything else
that's going on. And maybe you can say you're competitive
in some structure or some way in that format, but

(01:16:14):
it really is like you can do anything with creation,
and then competitive is only as good as, you know,
if you're lucky, as good as somebody else or maybe
a little bit better. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
Well, And you kind of mentioned too, the concept of
like bringing yourself into your work and making sure you're
working and building on yourself in order to improve your work.
It's kind of like that because like you can't create
anything original if you're not like strong with yourself. That's right,
because like then you're just competing with other people or
like recycling stuff or whatever. But yeah, that's interesting you

(01:16:46):
mentioned that is like pouring yourself into your projects for
that creative, original feel kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (01:16:53):
Yeah, and using the work to explore yourself too. Right,
if you're wondering, like what what what am I about?
You know, like find it. There was a scene and
bring up Lucifer again. There was a scene in this
episode of Lucifer that I did that was it was
their musical episode and Lucifer talks to his father God

(01:17:17):
for the first time. And in the rehearsal, we just
were doing the damn rehearsal and I'm watching these two
actors and I just started to cry in the rehearsal
because of like what this conversation meant to the characters,
And like, dude, I'm not that guy. Like I'm like, okay,

(01:17:37):
we're on a film, stead these are characters. This is
a scriptor for whatever reason that infiltrated whatever I was
going through at that time in my life, you know,
whether it was between my dad and I or whatever,
and it like completely affected me and like at the
end of the rehearsal, like they you know, everyone looks
at me to say cut, and I'm just like crying,

(01:17:57):
and so I think it's a and that's not a
normal thing for me. So I think, you know, it's
another sign of like art is giving us these opportunities
to explore ourselves, you know, through it, right, so like
put yourself out there because you never know what you're
working through, you never know what you're working toward, you know,

(01:18:17):
And that's a probably the most powerful, you know, aspect
of creating is like explore those things about you that
you want to know more about through the work, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
I love that, Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
I think I feel like even for me, acting became
the biggest form of self discovery because I was able
to do things as a character that I wasn't giving
myself permission to as a person, and to be able
to explore those and to let those emotions out or
to you know, discover them right, go find them or
go make them in a scene or whatever it may be.

(01:18:51):
It's like it gave me a freedom that I didn't
have before, so I understood myself to a different degree.
And then to help develop a character more right, I
have to do research. I have to understand more how
that person thinks, how they feel, how they move, they operate,
and how they interact in a space, you know, with
other people. So to that point, though, what you're saying,
being able to use that art to heal, to grow,
to understand, it's like I haven't found anything else like

(01:19:14):
it in the world, you know, And I think that
is why this industry exists, you know what I mean,
And that's why this is why I'm here exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Yeah, dude, I'm working on McKenna Volume two right now,
one of our comic books, and you know, it's essentially
like I don't want to give away too much, but
I'm writing from a female perspective in like this ancient
tomb underground in Africa.

Speaker 1 (01:19:39):
Very close to home for you, right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
So I'm like, but that's the beauty of creating, is
like putting yourself in other people's shoes and like, what
are they feeling? Like, what are their emotions? Exactly? I
was going to make that joke, right, It's like, what
is that?

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
What does that mean to me?

Speaker 4 (01:19:57):
Though?

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
And that's how you can look at it, is what
does it mean to you? And then how do you
recreate that artificially to at least make it seem natural
in a good way? Right, But that's the beauty of
of all of it. It's a it's a challenge, and
it's a very emotional roller coaster of trying to figure

(01:20:18):
that out and what makes us human? How do you
create something human on like a blank page? You know,
it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
I really hope. I just got this kind of vision
a couple of years from now, that we're all sitting
on set, you're directing an episode or two of or
maybe more of Kine. We're all sitting here just like
you know what I mean, it would be the dream yea, yeah,
you got to go create it.

Speaker 4 (01:20:43):
That's right, man, that's why we're here. That's exactly right. No,
it was great. I mean, thank you guys for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
I really appreciate your time. Man. Let's talk. Let's turn
the cameras off, talk talk shop.

Speaker 4 (01:20:54):
Yeah all right, all right, thank you. My pleasure gets
lots of fun, lots of fun. Thank thank you, Spencer.

Speaker 2 (01:21:00):
Thank you for watching Studio twenty two.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
Don't forget to like, sharing, subscribe

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
And follow our socials at Studio twenty two Podcast

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