May 2, 2024 • 32 mins
Mary Barra has an ambitious plan: to double General Motor’s revenue to $280 billion by the end of the decade and turn the legacy automaker into more of a tech company. To pull this off, she's going all in on electric drive and autonomous cars. At the ten year mark of her career as CEO, Emily Chang sits down with Barra to discuss her journey to the c-suite, her big plans for the future and what it'll take to turn them into a reality.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Emily Chank and this is the circuit. I gotta say, you,
driving a hummer is pretty badass.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
That's what I'm going for, Like badass soccer mom.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yep, that's me riding on the streets of Detroit in
an electric hummer with GM CEO Mary Bara. It's rare
to me to CEO who's actually made it from the
factory floor to the top job. But that's exactly what
Bara did. She's been the CEO of General Motors for
a decade, weathered political heat, labor disputes, and the biggest
recall in the company's history. But she's also taken GM
(00:33):
from financial ruin to profitability, though Wall Street still needs convincing.
So when you look at the stock, does it ever
piss you off?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yeah? It does.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
But again I can get mad about it, and I
can be upset and frustrated, and believe me, I have
those moments.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now she's shaking things up, vowing to electrify GM's entire
fleet and keep up with Tesla and Chinese Carmaker byd All,
while the public still is an fully bought in on
the whole ev thing. If it works, it could be
the biggest transformation in automotive history. Joining me on this
edition of the Circuit. GM Chair and CEO, Mary Bara.
(01:13):
You've been CEO of GM for ten years. You've been
working here for forty. Tell me about when you got
the call to be CEO. I was actually in Washington,
d C. And we'd met with the board and had
an I guess, for lack of a better term, in interview,
and you know, the next morning, currency at the time,
(01:34):
Dan pulled me in the room and he said, we've
selected you, and it's just one of those you just
don't even know how you're going to feel. What I
remember is they immediately wanted me to go into the
room to.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Talk to the board, and.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
All I wanted to do was text my husband, and
so I think I just texted him and I said,
I think, I said, CEO. I can't remember what I
texted about it, Like I literally had time to type
like a couple characters, and then I set it down
and then I had a go And it was probably
an hour later that I got to talk to him,
But then we weren't going to announce it for I
think a couple of weeks, so I'll never forget when
I landed. He took me out to a restaurant and
(02:11):
we were sitting at the bar because it was last
minute and we had this private celebration. We were like,
oh no, we're just really happy, and so it was.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was special.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
So it was a surprise, like did you have any incline?
And it was being considered at that point, but you
never know, and I don't take things for granted.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
It was a tough time for JAM right leading up
to this, the two thousand and eight recession hits, the
auto industry gets pailed out, GM goes into bankruptcy. Did
it feel like the company was in free fall?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
As we went through it, I didn't ever consider there
wasn't going to be a GM. It was like, Okay,
what do we have to do? Well, so let's do it.
And at the time, I was running manufacturing engineering, which
meant I was responsible for all of the plants, all
our facilities, all the plants, all the machinery equipment in
the plants. And it immediately became just incredible work. As
(02:58):
we were planning to go into bankrupt to then be
able to come out of bankruptcy. I just wish we
could get this over because I was already thinking how
do we restructure, how do we move forward?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Three weeks after you became CEO, you had to testify
before Congress in the ignition switch crisis. How did that
moment test you?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You know, when you look at the roots of the
ignition switch, the parts were designed in the late nineties,
and so here we are now in twenty fourteen dealing
with this situation. But it was tragic because people lost
their lives. So again, as we got into that, it
was we were going to be guided by three principles.
We were going to be transparent, we were going to
(03:36):
do everything in our power to make sure something like
that never happened again, and we literally changed the way
we designed vehicles. And then third, we were going to
do everything we could to support the customer. And it
was a very trying time because when you go through
a situation like that, all of a sudden, everything's bad.
There's nothing good about General Motors, and so you know,
testifying was probably one of the hardest things that I
(03:57):
ever did. But I really wise person said to me, Mary,
you're talking to your employees. That got me through it,
because I really I wanted all of our people to
feel okay. Yes, this happened and it was not good,
and we can never let it happen again. But there's
a lot of good at General Motors, and here's what
we're going to do. And so it really became the
(04:19):
way to talk to our employees.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, I mean cars are like the life and death
piece of technology, right, like people died. How do you
process that?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It was really really hard. I mean, you know, you
do a lot of soul searching. I could turn it
back the clock and change it. I would, And that's why,
you know, we set up a victim compensation fund. We
did a rental program. I remember one time on a
Friday afternoon, I get a call and it's from someone
who's really mad. He said, I don't feel comfortable driving
this vehicle. And you said, there's going to be a loaner, Revlain,
(04:52):
I can't get one, and like we work that night.
By the next day we had one. Because when you're
in a situation like that, everyone think you know everything,
and really you know something happened, but you don't really
know everything, and everybody wants you to guess and everybody
wants to say, well, this had to be it. And
that was another hard part about testifying because I didn't know,
(05:13):
so I looked pretty stupid because I'd say, we're investigating this.
But in the end it was the right decision because
had I guessed at what happened, I would have been wrong.
And so as we learned, we started changing. And then
I think probably one of the most important points for
the company was when we were finished with the external report,
we held a global town hall. We invited the media
(05:35):
and we laid it out and it was hard.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
It was hard describe GM's culture before you took the wheel.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, I would say we were already making changes. In fact,
Mark Reis, who's our president today, at the time he
was leading North America, he had already started to work
on what are our core values and what are the
behaviors we want to demonstrate, And so because that work
had literally been done the year before, and at the
time I was running Product, he was running North America.
(06:04):
When I learned about it is that this works really
well for Product as well. Can we kind of join in?
And then we took it to our CEO at the time,
and he supported it for the whole company. So then
as we got into the ignition swhich it gave us
an opportunity to demonstrate those values and to live the
behaviors because a lot of times people talk about it,
this is our culture, and it's all great and fun,
(06:24):
you know, when everything's going well, but when you're in
the middle of something that difficult. We over communicated and
we had issues where there was engineers are like, well,
I'm afraid to sign off on my design mark again.
Running product at the time said bring it to me,
I'll sign it with you. I mean, we had to
just get everybody feeling positive again and that we're going
to solve this issue. All we can do is make
(06:45):
sure it never happens again and be better. But I
think that was a core moment for the company because
we did live our values.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
My understanding is you worked really hard to evolve the
culture to a safety first culture, and now every meeting
starts with like a safety mess right, How hard was
that to do? How difficult was it to transform the culture, well,
the culture to start every meeting with a safety message
(07:12):
because not only do we want to have product safety,
we want to have workplace safety, and we want to
have psychological safety.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
And so you know, it's been ten years.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Every year we actually dedicate a safety week, because there's
a lot of people here who weren't here for that.
And one of the things I said is, I never
want to forget, because when you feel how bad you feel,
when you know the company made a mistake that cost
people their life, you want to make sure everybody feels
(07:41):
the weight of that so it never ever happens again.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I can tell.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I mean, you get emotional even just thinking what does
this spring up for you?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I knew we needed to make change, but then you
start to read and talk to people in their local culture.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Takes five years. I don't have five years. I have
like five days.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And so we got our senior leaders together in the
fall and we did something we'd never done before. We said,
if you could change one behavior in this company to
make the company better, what would it be? And we
asked them to submit it ahead of time. And the
interesting thing is, at the time it was three hundred people,
it narrowed down to like five or six things. And
so then our whole day was talking about those and
(08:20):
how we were going to hold ourselves accountable. And we said,
these are the behaviors we all agree, let's hold ourselves
accountable to start behaving this way starting tomorrow now. It
was just the start, and we had many things where
we had to keep reinforcing and admitting when we hadn't
done everything the way we said. But we built on
that and I think that was the start of the
culture change and our people saw it. In the GMT members,
(08:43):
they saw it and they believe.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Now you're trying to change culture again to being a
tech forward company that's focused on EVS and av's. How
hard is that going to be to do?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yet?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Again, it's hard because human beings don't like change. Well,
this is the way I've always done it work well, Like, no,
we can't do it the way we did it before.
Are we thinking through? Are we using technology? Are we
getting in front of where the industry is going? It
requires everybody to change, and it's hard because in some
cases some people just aren't willing to change and you
(09:15):
have to be aware of that. And it's not that
they're bad people, they just they're not aligned and you
have to make change.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
So it's hard.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
If you don't do it, what happens you don't exist.
General motors, even though we've been here for one hundred years,
we do not have a right to exist and we
all should understand that from what happened in two thousand
and eight, So we don't have a right to exist.
We have to serve the customer better than anyone else.
And now every industry is transforming because of technology. But
(09:42):
this is also, I think for our industry, a historic
change that we'll look back on. And when we went
from horse and buggy to internal combustion engine, it happened
to over the course of fifty years. This is not
going to be a fifty year transformation, and you just
can't assume you're going to get it right. So you
have to really stay agile, and you have to be
willing to change. Then you've got to go to the
entire team and say, okay, yes we're pivoting because we
(10:04):
learned something new or we're seeing something different with the customer.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So it's hard and.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
If you don't do it, GM does exactly, people can
say you're being dramatic.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I don't think we are.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Your predecessors were intent on making GM the world's largest
auto company, and you pulled back on some of those
global prestige plans. Why was that the strategy? Was it
too much?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well? I think as the company as more and more
competition came around the globe. A lot of what we
do is how do we deploy our owner's capital. And
if you're doing a vehicle in a region or a country,
and from the get go it's not set up to
be profitable, you're destroying capital. And so as we got
into it, we started looking around the world and I'm like,
(10:46):
I remember one pivotal meeting where the country leader and
the region leaders like, well, it was a program approval
and I'm like, we can't approve this. I said, not
only does it not make money, there's no plan to
make money. Like, well, we have to have this product.
I said, why what's going to happen if you don't,
because we're destroying capital here, but just kind of reverberating,
and I said, if you'd like to come back when
(11:06):
you have a path to profitability, we'll look at it.
And they're like, but we've always been here doing what
you've always done. If it's not working, you can't keep
doing it. And that was a seed change for the
company as well, because all of a sudden it was like,
we have to earn our way. Every region, every country,
every product has to earn its way.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Some would say, your gas powered cars still make more
profits than evs. So how do you balance what's best
for shareholders and consumers and the balance sheet, the climate,
all those things.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, we look at where the world is going. I mean, again,
this is a long cycle business. You know, new vehicles two, three, four,
sometimes five years, depending on a ground up approach, and
so you can't just look at what's working today. You
have to look at what you know, what song's going
to be popular three years from now. So we have
to look ahead. We have to really think of where
the customer is going to go, where the world's going,
(11:56):
where the regulatory environment is going. I think we're well
positioned to be able to make this change. It won't
be linear. So we're well positioned in our internal combustion
engine vehicles. I think we're well positioned in EV especially
this year as we execute and people see our EV's.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
GM actually got into EV's pretty early. I mean, there
was a EV one in the late nineties. You know,
now decades later, governments are presumably on board, lawmakers are
on board, and yet it still seems so hard. Where
are we in the transition to EV's as an industry.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
We're in the early days.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
But you know, I think what's important to note is
when we worked on EV one, and then in the
twenty ten timeframe we have the Chevrolet Volt, and then
in twenty fifteen we released the Chevrolet Bolt that we
are updating now to our latest generation. So General Motors
always had a commitment to EV's I think what we're
still seeing is battery chemistry. Battery technology is still expensive,
(12:52):
and because the vehicle is already a very expensive purchase
for consumers, it's continuing to get costs down while we
continue to improve the technology.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
You scaled back some of the EV targets mainly because
of the battery manufacturing issues, Like, why is that still
such a challenge.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well, I think we're through those challenges now, but you know,
we were making something new. I feel like we do
have a lot of manufacturing expertise, but I think we
took for granted some of the newer processes and we
will not do that again.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, and you're coming out with an EV for every
GM brand. When will you know the strategy is working.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
As we get vehicles out this year and we see
how they're adopted, we believe we're well priced. See a
lot of companies right now discounting, So as we go
through this year, there'll be a lot of proof points,
and then we're just going to continue to adjust the
strategy led by the customer.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You've said the plan is to be all electric by
twenty thirty five, is that really still achievable? That's in
ten years.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
It is, but it's for our light duty vehicles, and
it is achievable, and that's why we're working so hard
to get cost down to have entries in the key
segments at the different price points. But as we get
really capable, EV's out there and we can get price
down and still drive profitability hit our targets. Charging infrastructure
I think is going to be critical to drive EV adoption.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I mean this. I mean we've all heard the horror
stories about drivers stranded. What's it going to take to
get there?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I think it's having a robust charging infrastructure. Every quarter
there's more charges at it, it gets better, but it's
also making sure they work their available ease of use.
There's growing pains right now for sure. A friend of
mine who lives in California who drives EV said, right now,
driving an EV is an adventure. You have to plan
ahead where you don't necessarily when you hit the road
in an ice vehicle, is there going to be a
(14:34):
gas station where I need it?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
You assume there will be well.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
And on top of that, there's inflation, there's interest rates,
the cars are getting more expensive, and it almost feels
like hype is slowing down. Do you feel like you're
battling that like a sentiment? You know as well.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I think it was like it's going to be all
EV's by tomorrow, and we knew that when we looked
at what was available, what battery technology costs are, the
fact we've got to build infrastructure for battery raw materials.
I mean, I think it was over and now it's
probably under hype and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
But you know, again, yes growth is slowed, but it's
(15:08):
still growing, and so you have to look at those
trends and as there's breakthroughs and products that hit different
price points for consumers. As charging becomes better, you'll see
bump ups.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
You've said GM wants to make a million EV's or
will make a million evs by twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Is that still what we said is we wanted to
have capacity to assemble you know our assembly capacity and
we'll be on track because as we make this transformation,
I'd rather be a little ahead than a little behind.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Do you ever feel pressure to stick to your guns
on this? Do you ever question yourself?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Of course I do.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I don't underestimate any of the competitors in this EV landscape.
You know, I'm constantly looking and testing our strategy. We've
made adjustments since we started talking about the strategy in
twenty eighteen. We've shifted many times, but I always say
it's shifting to the good because as you learn more information,
you should take in that information and improve your strategy.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Tesla stock is up thirteen hundred percent in the last
ten years. GM is up like twelve thirteen percent. If
GM has the right strategy, why isn't it valued like TESTA?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I think that's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
But I think we're a company that is one hundred
years old and we've had challenges in our past, like bankruptcy.
There's some companies say this is what I'm going to do,
and the value shows up right there.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
We have to prove it, and so we're going to
prove it.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
You have met or beat expectations thirty five out of
the last thirty six quarters. So when you look at
the stock, does it ever piss you off?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
It does, I mean because I but again, I can
get mad about it, and I can be upset and frustrated,
and believe me, I have those moments. Believe me, I
have those moments. But then it's like, Okay, what am
I going to do about it? And so it's kind
of like, let's work harder, Let's make sure we're being
efficient at the end. It's our responsibility. You can't go
home and have a pity party.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
What's it like competing with Elon Musk Well, I.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Have a lot of respect for him and what he's done,
and now we're partners charging infrastructure, so you know, I
have to give credit where credits.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Due, whether or not you like the method, right, he's
a master marketer, certainly bull but also super unpredictable. I mean,
what's that like leading alongside someone like that.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Well, I think I'm going to be Mary Bara. We're
a different company. I think we're held to different standards.
People look at us differently, and I recognize that, so
respect him as a peer in the industry. But General
Letters has to follow our plan, our path, and I
can't try to be.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Something I'm not. Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Unfair that they judge you different?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Now, I always say to my kids, life's not fair,
So why spend any time on it?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
You know, lifestaff fair? Just get over it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I'd love to know what you think of the cyber truck.
America loves GM trucks. Is America going to love the
cyber truck?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
You know?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I haven't had the opportunity to see it in person
or drive it, So I'm going to reserve judgment until you.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Haven't seen what I feel like they're all over.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I've seen pictures, but no, I haven't seen I haven't
seen one even driving by. So I think it's not
really fair for me to have an opinion on something
I haven't driven or actually seen other than a picture.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
How do you think about the competition. I mean, there's
intense competition. There is because trucks are such an important market.
But really there's been other companies over the last decade
or more that have tried to come in and take
the US truck franchise away from the traditional Big three.
But it's a very interesting segment because there's really strong
loyalty and also Designing a truck is very different than
(18:23):
designing of sedan or even a crossover. Those customers we
know them very very well. We know what's important and
think about. You know, a lot of trucks are part
of a person earning their livelihood. So we know trucks
and that's why we started with the Hummer, which is
a super truck, why we have the Silver Router work
truck now the Silver Router RST. We're very committed and
(18:43):
intent on keeping our truck franchise. Elon Musk has mocked
traditional automakers for how long it took them to get
into EBS. Was he right about that?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Even though we were moving, I would have accelerated the
pace know hindsight's twenty twenty, but again, I can't spend
a lot of time on that. So I'm pleased with
where we are now. I'm pleased that we started back
in seventeen and eighteen designing the LTM platform because that's
what enables us to have the vehicles we're launching now
and also will enable us to get to our break
(19:12):
even a variable profit by the end of the year,
in mid single digit profitability next year. So I'm very
proud of that investment. If I could have started a
year earlier or two years earlier, wish I would have.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
The car market has changed so much in the time
that you've been at the company. I was thinking about Japan,
which was king of the car market for a long time,
but even now times are changing. Is there a lesson
in that for GM?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, I think you've got to understand where the customer's going. So,
for instance, the sedan market is very, very small because
once people moved to a crossover in suv, they were
sitting higher. They like that stance. Very few customers will
go back to a sedan unless it's a luxury or
performance sedan, and so you've got to look at those
trends and they're global. I remember many years ago now,
(19:54):
but while I was in this world, st in this market,
customers I was going to want sedans and like people
are people, and we pushed hard in a couple of other
segments to go to crossovers sooner than what the leadership
and the country want. And those are the bets you
make on where the industry's going that where it is.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You've been spending a lot of time in China. What's
your impression of the Chinese car market.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
There's still as tremendous growth opportunities, but you know right
now there's a lot of sorting that's going to have
to happen. There's over one hundred domestic Chinese EV producers.
No market can support that. I think there's only a
handful that are profitable. So there's a lot of sorting
that's going to happen over time.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So sorting means consolidation or some of these will just
go out of business.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Something has to happen. I mean, this is a capital
intensive business. No country, no region can support that many carmakers.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
What's a bigger threat TESLA or BID?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I take them both as significant threats, and that's why
we have to have great vehicles priced right that customers
want to buy.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Do you think legacy American automakers will maintain their position?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I do.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I mean, again, we have to earn that right. I
think we have clearly have the capability to do it.
But we can't rest on our laurels. We can't assume
people are just going to naturally stay with us.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
The car customer is very rational. You've also been spending
a lot of time in Washington. How has GM been
trying to influence policy.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I'd say overall, we're very aligned in the direction to
move to EVS. We think they're better vehicles. One of
the things we've been really asking for is to harmonize
the standards between the EPA and NITZA out of the
DOT and then the Department of Energy. So as you're
going to go and move aggressively into EVS, it's difficult
(21:34):
when you've got to do one thing for one regulatory
body and one for another. So if they can be harmonized,
they'll actually accelerate the move.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Whether it's Trump or Biden in the White House could
mean two very different things for GM. How do you
see it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
We've worked with every administration. We're going to continue to
do that. We're a highly regulated industry, so we have
to we have to have a good relationship with our regulators,
regardless who's in office. So we'll continue to work and
do that. We are committed to our eb plan.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
When Trump was in office, he attacked GM. He attacked
you multiple times over jobs, over manufacturing. How has your
relationship evolved or how did your relationship evolve?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Well, you know a lot of times things were very
public and I would always reach out, and whether it's
talking to him or talking to someone in the administration
at the most senior level, most of the time it
was a misunderstanding. It was not recognizing or GM having
to make tough business decisions that weren't something that they
agreed with.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Trump has already been to Detroit as part of his
reelection campaign, and certainly GM is going to be used
to spark debate. How are you preparing for that? Are
you bracing for more trouble?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
We're going to keep looking to how do we build
the right relationships and how do we keep doing and
help people understand why we're doing what we're doing, and
we'll stay the course.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Is being the target in a situation like that? How
do you deal with a situation like.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I think you have to try to the extent you
can to get in front of it and not be
the target that's communicating helping people understand. The political world
is very different than the business world, and you have
to remember that. And again, we're long cycle business. We
can't just flip on a dime, nor should we.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Biden has made ambitious moves on climate, but I wonder, like,
how worried are you that the entire agenda could change.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I think when you look there's a lot of pieces
that are in some cases legislative, and so could something change,
of course, but I think directionally there's a lot of
pieces in place that would make it hard to make
it a complete change back to only ice vehicles.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Now, while you've been building a new GM and investing
in new EV plants, closing traditional plants, that means people
have lost jobs, Like you've laid off a lot of workers.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
That hurts the people.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That hurts the community, It hurts your reputation depending on
who you ask. How does that sit with you?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
First, we have closed very few plants because I think
when we look at this, we're looking at and that
really wasn't an ev ice EV transition that was making
the business more efficient.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
And we have, but you have laid off a lot.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
We have, but we a lot of those people had
the opportunity to move to another one of our plans.
We actually have more employees from a represented perspective than
we did over the last few years. So it may
not be the job where the job was, but there
is a job for the most part, and so I
think that's important because we also have to continue to
make the business efficient. Competition is fierce. If we don't
(24:26):
make those decisions, we put everything at risk. So we
have to keep driving for that. And then as we've
become more efficient, from an engineering and staff's perspective, we
always have to be looking at how do we drive efficiencies.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
The people who depended on those jobs, how do you
process that? Well, these are human beings and I know
you know, And it's like, depending on the people you
talk to in the community, some people love GM or
some people were touched by these layoffs, it's hard.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I think you have to explain what's happening and why
you want to put yourself in their shoes. Again, for
many people, there was another job move and I can
understand for a lot of people and move is hard
and I can empathize with that. But I also know
with what we went through in twenty eighteen, if we
don't take the steps to drive efficiency, especially as the
(25:12):
whole industry is transforming, we're going to weaken our position.
And then as it relates to some of our technical talent,
we provide support as they have the opportunity to move
to different companies, to different careers, to different industries.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
You just got through a big strike, but there's a
sense that auto workers are still anxious.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
What would you say to them. I don't really know
if they're anxious, you know. I think there was a
lot of misunderstanding as we went through the last negotiation
the industry and GM, for sure, we weren't looking for
a concessionary agreement. We knew how hard our manufacturing team
members work through COVID, coming back into the plants when
we didn't really understand it, and following the safety protocols
(25:51):
to make sure they could safely build vehicles. So I
don't know if there's confusion or angs. I think it's
more we got through that, recognize our employees, and now
we're going to continue to move forward to keep them
understanding where we're headed as a business and why that's
best for their future, and we'll move forward.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
GM has had its site set on self driving since
two thousand and seven the DARPA Grand Challenge, and I
read that a GM scout actually spotted Cruise. What got
you hooked on Cruise?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well, when you think about autonomous driving today, depending on
the year, forty thousand people in the US alone lose
their lives and ninety percent of those excents are caused
by human error, and so I think as a company,
is the technology becomes available, we have a responsibility to
solve those problems for society.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I rode in a Cruse vehicle just a few months
before it shut down in San Francisco, and it wasn't
the smoothest ride, but I could see the promise. I
could see the perils broadly.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
What went wrong at Cruise in your view, Well, I
think we didn't recognize the team there, didn't recognize the
need to build a relationship with the local regulators, the
state regulators as well as the first responders. I think
they believe, Hey, this technology is so great, it's got
such a great promise. We've already demonstrated safer than a
human driver. We'll get it out there and people will
(27:08):
love it. Well, I don't think technology adoption happens that
way that many times, and so I believe in the
technology and what we're working on. We need to relaunch
with very much a focus of as we go into
a community, making sure the local leadership, the regulators, and
the community understands the why of the technology, why it's
better safer, giving people who don't have mobility for whatever reason,
(27:32):
the opportunity to have that freedom, so we can do
a much better job communicating. But I'm really proud of
the work that the team's done. From a technology perspective.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Surely, if self driving cars were on the roads and
the volume that regular cars are, there would be computer errors,
wouldn't There there's human errors now. I think the fear
is that the computers are going to make mistakes too
a lot of times. So when you think about human error,
the software doesn't drive impaired, It knows all the traffic
LAFE and rules, and so there's just such a higher
(28:03):
probability now if but there have been accidents, there have,
and some of those, you know, you look at it
and say, regardless if it was a human or autonomous
hicle driving, that would have happened if something falls in
front of the vehicle right as it's moving. So I
think you have to put it into perspective. But I
think when we accept losing forty thousand lives a year,
we can do better. So what's the plan to fix
(28:26):
cruise and can get it back on track.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Our focus right now is we're working on what is
the relaunch plan? Because we believe in the core technology
and the team that's doing that. So we have said,
in the next handful of weeks or a couple months,
we'll be rolling out that new plan, and we plan
to go to one city and really demonstrate building the relationships,
engaging the community and demonstrating the technology and the good
(28:49):
that it provides, and then we'll go from there.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
You know, folks say way Mo is a lot farther
along than cruise. How much is riding on your ability
to turn this around.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
A couple of years ago, there were many companies saying,
you know, we're going to have autonomous driving next year,
and I think everybody's learned it's a big challenge, but
it's something I believe that we can do. We're working
that plan right now, and when it's completing approved, we'll
be transparent and we'll share.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And you're still committed to self driving absolutely, and you're
going to be selling these cars. Is it's a robo
taxi system? Like, what does this look like in the future.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Well, I think as we go forward, there's opportunity from
a robo taxi. There's also opportunity from personal autonomous vehicles
that I think would change the way people move so
that gives me confidence we need to move forward.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
A Weimo was recently vandalized in San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I believe that they.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Set it on fire. Why do you think there's still
so much resistance, Like, where is that coming from?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Well, I think we're both operating in that city. I
don't want to speak for Weimo. I have respect for
the team and for Alphabet, but I think building the
relationship with the community is very important, and I think
those are issues that we're going to have to work through.
I can tell you there's other communities that are very
interested in the technology because they see the promise.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
It comes to av's and EV's. I still wonder do
consumers really want this. Do you think they're bought into
the future or are you looking at this with the
mentality of if we build it, they will come.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Well, if we build something better and when they get
exposed to it, they will like it and they will
adopt it. And I really believe EV's are better, and
I believe when autonomous technology offers the promise, I know
it has to make daily lives better. I mean, I
love to drive, but before in staff and go traffic,
you can be more productive. So I think there's a
(30:31):
huge opportunity. And again it's life changing technology. Where do
you want GM to be in five years in a
leadership position with evs and having av technology that customers
really understand and love.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
What about in one hundred and fifteen years? I mean,
this company has been around one hundred and fifteen years.
Where is it going to be in another century? But
you know, it is really cool.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
When we were working on our purpose, we went back
and I actually read the initial articles of and corporation
for the company, and in that they talked about electric vehicles,
they talked about flying vehicles, and so who knows what
our future holds, but I think our forefathers were pretty
innovated and saw along futures.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And what do you want your chapter in this history
to look like like when it's written? What do they
say about Mary Bara?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I don't know what they'll say, But I'm here working
to make sure we build a strong team, that we
have a strong foundation. So as we're in the middle
of this incredibly exciting transformation, we're well positioned for the
next one one hundred and fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
All right, Well, we're not going to be here in
one hundred and fifteen years, but I never know, We
never know. They're making a lot of progress on They're
doing a lot of things to help us live longer.
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to
this episode of the Circuit. You can watch the full
episode for a closer look at Mary's quest to drive
GM into the future. I'm Emily Chang. Follow me on
(31:56):
Twitter and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. You can watch
new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or on
demand by downloading the Bloomberg app to your smart tv,
and check out other Bloomberg podcasts on Apple Podcasts, the
iHeartMedia app, or wherever you listen to your shows, and
please let us know what you think by leaving a review.
I'm your host and executive producer. Our senior producers are
(32:16):
Lauren Ellis and Alan Jeffries. Our associate producer is Tyler Kota.
Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks again,
I'm Emily Chank and this is the circuit. I gotta say, you,
driving a hummer is pretty badass.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
That's what I'm going for, Like badass soccer mom.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yep, that's me riding on the streets of Detroit in
an electric hummer with GM CEO Mary Bara. It's rare
to me to CEO who's actually made it from the
factory floor to the top job. But that's exactly what
Bara did. She's been the CEO of General Motors for
a decade, weathered political heat, labor disputes, and the biggest
recall in the company's history. But she's also taken GM
(00:33):
from financial ruin to profitability, though Wall Street still needs convincing.
So when you look at the stock, does it ever
piss you off?
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yeah? It does.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
But again I can get mad about it, and I
can be upset and frustrated, and believe me, I have
those moments.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Now she's shaking things up, vowing to electrify GM's entire
fleet and keep up with Tesla and Chinese Carmaker byd All,
while the public still is an fully bought in on
the whole ev thing. If it works, it could be
the biggest transformation in automotive history. Joining me on this
edition of the Circuit. GM Chair and CEO, Mary Bara.
(01:13):
You've been CEO of GM for ten years. You've been
working here for forty. Tell me about when you got
the call to be CEO. I was actually in Washington,
d C. And we'd met with the board and had
an I guess, for lack of a better term, in interview,
and you know, the next morning, currency at the time,
(01:34):
Dan pulled me in the room and he said, we've
selected you, and it's just one of those you just
don't even know how you're going to feel. What I
remember is they immediately wanted me to go into the
room to.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Talk to the board, and.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
All I wanted to do was text my husband, and
so I think I just texted him and I said,
I think, I said, CEO. I can't remember what I
texted about it, Like I literally had time to type
like a couple characters, and then I set it down
and then I had a go And it was probably
an hour later that I got to talk to him,
But then we weren't going to announce it for I
think a couple of weeks, so I'll never forget when
I landed. He took me out to a restaurant and
(02:11):
we were sitting at the bar because it was last
minute and we had this private celebration. We were like,
oh no, we're just really happy, and so it was.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was special.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
So it was a surprise, like did you have any incline?
And it was being considered at that point, but you
never know, and I don't take things for granted.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
It was a tough time for JAM right leading up
to this, the two thousand and eight recession hits, the
auto industry gets pailed out, GM goes into bankruptcy. Did
it feel like the company was in free fall?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
As we went through it, I didn't ever consider there
wasn't going to be a GM. It was like, Okay,
what do we have to do? Well, so let's do it.
And at the time, I was running manufacturing engineering, which
meant I was responsible for all of the plants, all
our facilities, all the plants, all the machinery equipment in
the plants. And it immediately became just incredible work. As
(02:58):
we were planning to go into bankrupt to then be
able to come out of bankruptcy. I just wish we
could get this over because I was already thinking how
do we restructure, how do we move forward?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Three weeks after you became CEO, you had to testify
before Congress in the ignition switch crisis. How did that
moment test you?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You know, when you look at the roots of the
ignition switch, the parts were designed in the late nineties,
and so here we are now in twenty fourteen dealing
with this situation. But it was tragic because people lost
their lives. So again, as we got into that, it
was we were going to be guided by three principles.
We were going to be transparent, we were going to
(03:36):
do everything in our power to make sure something like
that never happened again, and we literally changed the way
we designed vehicles. And then third, we were going to
do everything we could to support the customer. And it
was a very trying time because when you go through
a situation like that, all of a sudden, everything's bad.
There's nothing good about General Motors, and so you know,
testifying was probably one of the hardest things that I
(03:57):
ever did. But I really wise person said to me, Mary,
you're talking to your employees. That got me through it,
because I really I wanted all of our people to
feel okay. Yes, this happened and it was not good,
and we can never let it happen again. But there's
a lot of good at General Motors, and here's what
we're going to do. And so it really became the
(04:19):
way to talk to our employees.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, I mean cars are like the life and death
piece of technology, right, like people died. How do you
process that?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It was really really hard. I mean, you know, you
do a lot of soul searching. I could turn it
back the clock and change it. I would, And that's why,
you know, we set up a victim compensation fund. We
did a rental program. I remember one time on a
Friday afternoon, I get a call and it's from someone
who's really mad. He said, I don't feel comfortable driving
this vehicle. And you said, there's going to be a loaner, Revlain,
(04:52):
I can't get one, and like we work that night.
By the next day we had one. Because when you're
in a situation like that, everyone think you know everything,
and really you know something happened, but you don't really
know everything, and everybody wants you to guess and everybody
wants to say, well, this had to be it. And
that was another hard part about testifying because I didn't know,
(05:13):
so I looked pretty stupid because I'd say, we're investigating this.
But in the end it was the right decision because
had I guessed at what happened, I would have been wrong.
And so as we learned, we started changing. And then
I think probably one of the most important points for
the company was when we were finished with the external report,
we held a global town hall. We invited the media
(05:35):
and we laid it out and it was hard.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
It was hard describe GM's culture before you took the wheel.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, I would say we were already making changes. In fact,
Mark Reis, who's our president today, at the time he
was leading North America, he had already started to work
on what are our core values and what are the
behaviors we want to demonstrate, And so because that work
had literally been done the year before, and at the
time I was running Product, he was running North America.
(06:04):
When I learned about it is that this works really
well for Product as well. Can we kind of join in?
And then we took it to our CEO at the time,
and he supported it for the whole company. So then
as we got into the ignition swhich it gave us
an opportunity to demonstrate those values and to live the
behaviors because a lot of times people talk about it,
this is our culture, and it's all great and fun,
(06:24):
you know, when everything's going well, but when you're in
the middle of something that difficult. We over communicated and
we had issues where there was engineers are like, well,
I'm afraid to sign off on my design mark again.
Running product at the time said bring it to me,
I'll sign it with you. I mean, we had to
just get everybody feeling positive again and that we're going
to solve this issue. All we can do is make
(06:45):
sure it never happens again and be better. But I
think that was a core moment for the company because
we did live our values.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
My understanding is you worked really hard to evolve the
culture to a safety first culture, and now every meeting
starts with like a safety mess right, How hard was
that to do? How difficult was it to transform the culture, well,
the culture to start every meeting with a safety message
(07:12):
because not only do we want to have product safety,
we want to have workplace safety, and we want to
have psychological safety.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
And so you know, it's been ten years.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Every year we actually dedicate a safety week, because there's
a lot of people here who weren't here for that.
And one of the things I said is, I never
want to forget, because when you feel how bad you feel,
when you know the company made a mistake that cost
people their life, you want to make sure everybody feels
(07:41):
the weight of that so it never ever happens again.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I can tell.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I mean, you get emotional even just thinking what does
this spring up for you?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I knew we needed to make change, but then you
start to read and talk to people in their local culture.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Takes five years. I don't have five years. I have
like five days.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And so we got our senior leaders together in the
fall and we did something we'd never done before. We said,
if you could change one behavior in this company to
make the company better, what would it be? And we
asked them to submit it ahead of time. And the
interesting thing is, at the time it was three hundred people,
it narrowed down to like five or six things. And
so then our whole day was talking about those and
(08:20):
how we were going to hold ourselves accountable. And we said,
these are the behaviors we all agree, let's hold ourselves
accountable to start behaving this way starting tomorrow now. It
was just the start, and we had many things where
we had to keep reinforcing and admitting when we hadn't
done everything the way we said. But we built on
that and I think that was the start of the
culture change and our people saw it. In the GMT members,
(08:43):
they saw it and they believe.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Now you're trying to change culture again to being a
tech forward company that's focused on EVS and av's. How
hard is that going to be to do?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yet?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Again, it's hard because human beings don't like change. Well,
this is the way I've always done it work well, Like, no,
we can't do it the way we did it before.
Are we thinking through? Are we using technology? Are we
getting in front of where the industry is going? It
requires everybody to change, and it's hard because in some
cases some people just aren't willing to change and you
(09:15):
have to be aware of that. And it's not that
they're bad people, they just they're not aligned and you
have to make change.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
So it's hard.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
If you don't do it, what happens you don't exist.
General motors, even though we've been here for one hundred years,
we do not have a right to exist and we
all should understand that from what happened in two thousand
and eight, So we don't have a right to exist.
We have to serve the customer better than anyone else.
And now every industry is transforming because of technology. But
(09:42):
this is also, I think for our industry, a historic
change that we'll look back on. And when we went
from horse and buggy to internal combustion engine, it happened
to over the course of fifty years. This is not
going to be a fifty year transformation, and you just
can't assume you're going to get it right. So you
have to really stay agile, and you have to be
willing to change. Then you've got to go to the
entire team and say, okay, yes we're pivoting because we
(10:04):
learned something new or we're seeing something different with the customer.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So it's hard and.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
If you don't do it, GM does exactly, people can
say you're being dramatic.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I don't think we are.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Your predecessors were intent on making GM the world's largest
auto company, and you pulled back on some of those
global prestige plans. Why was that the strategy? Was it
too much?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well? I think as the company as more and more
competition came around the globe. A lot of what we
do is how do we deploy our owner's capital. And
if you're doing a vehicle in a region or a country,
and from the get go it's not set up to
be profitable, you're destroying capital. And so as we got
into it, we started looking around the world and I'm like,
(10:46):
I remember one pivotal meeting where the country leader and
the region leaders like, well, it was a program approval
and I'm like, we can't approve this. I said, not
only does it not make money, there's no plan to
make money. Like, well, we have to have this product.
I said, why what's going to happen if you don't,
because we're destroying capital here, but just kind of reverberating,
and I said, if you'd like to come back when
(11:06):
you have a path to profitability, we'll look at it.
And they're like, but we've always been here doing what
you've always done. If it's not working, you can't keep
doing it. And that was a seed change for the
company as well, because all of a sudden it was like,
we have to earn our way. Every region, every country,
every product has to earn its way.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Some would say, your gas powered cars still make more
profits than evs. So how do you balance what's best
for shareholders and consumers and the balance sheet, the climate,
all those things.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, we look at where the world is going. I mean, again,
this is a long cycle business. You know, new vehicles two, three, four,
sometimes five years, depending on a ground up approach, and
so you can't just look at what's working today. You
have to look at what you know, what song's going
to be popular three years from now. So we have
to look ahead. We have to really think of where
the customer is going to go, where the world's going,
(11:56):
where the regulatory environment is going. I think we're well
positioned to be able to make this change. It won't
be linear. So we're well positioned in our internal combustion
engine vehicles. I think we're well positioned in EV especially
this year as we execute and people see our EV's.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
GM actually got into EV's pretty early. I mean, there
was a EV one in the late nineties. You know,
now decades later, governments are presumably on board, lawmakers are
on board, and yet it still seems so hard. Where
are we in the transition to EV's as an industry.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
We're in the early days.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
But you know, I think what's important to note is
when we worked on EV one, and then in the
twenty ten timeframe we have the Chevrolet Volt, and then
in twenty fifteen we released the Chevrolet Bolt that we
are updating now to our latest generation. So General Motors
always had a commitment to EV's I think what we're
still seeing is battery chemistry. Battery technology is still expensive,
(12:52):
and because the vehicle is already a very expensive purchase
for consumers, it's continuing to get costs down while we
continue to improve the technology.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
You scaled back some of the EV targets mainly because
of the battery manufacturing issues, Like, why is that still
such a challenge.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well, I think we're through those challenges now, but you know,
we were making something new. I feel like we do
have a lot of manufacturing expertise, but I think we
took for granted some of the newer processes and we
will not do that again.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, and you're coming out with an EV for every
GM brand. When will you know the strategy is working.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
As we get vehicles out this year and we see
how they're adopted, we believe we're well priced. See a
lot of companies right now discounting, So as we go
through this year, there'll be a lot of proof points,
and then we're just going to continue to adjust the
strategy led by the customer.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
You've said the plan is to be all electric by
twenty thirty five, is that really still achievable? That's in
ten years.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
It is, but it's for our light duty vehicles, and
it is achievable, and that's why we're working so hard
to get cost down to have entries in the key
segments at the different price points. But as we get
really capable, EV's out there and we can get price
down and still drive profitability hit our targets. Charging infrastructure
I think is going to be critical to drive EV adoption.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I mean this. I mean we've all heard the horror
stories about drivers stranded. What's it going to take to
get there?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I think it's having a robust charging infrastructure. Every quarter
there's more charges at it, it gets better, but it's
also making sure they work their available ease of use.
There's growing pains right now for sure. A friend of
mine who lives in California who drives EV said, right now,
driving an EV is an adventure. You have to plan
ahead where you don't necessarily when you hit the road
in an ice vehicle, is there going to be a
(14:34):
gas station where I need it?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
You assume there will be well.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
And on top of that, there's inflation, there's interest rates,
the cars are getting more expensive, and it almost feels
like hype is slowing down. Do you feel like you're
battling that like a sentiment? You know as well.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I think it was like it's going to be all
EV's by tomorrow, and we knew that when we looked
at what was available, what battery technology costs are, the
fact we've got to build infrastructure for battery raw materials.
I mean, I think it was over and now it's
probably under hype and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
But you know, again, yes growth is slowed, but it's
(15:08):
still growing, and so you have to look at those
trends and as there's breakthroughs and products that hit different
price points for consumers. As charging becomes better, you'll see
bump ups.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
You've said GM wants to make a million EV's or
will make a million evs by twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Is that still what we said is we wanted to
have capacity to assemble you know our assembly capacity and
we'll be on track because as we make this transformation,
I'd rather be a little ahead than a little behind.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Do you ever feel pressure to stick to your guns
on this? Do you ever question yourself?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Of course I do.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I don't underestimate any of the competitors in this EV landscape.
You know, I'm constantly looking and testing our strategy. We've
made adjustments since we started talking about the strategy in
twenty eighteen. We've shifted many times, but I always say
it's shifting to the good because as you learn more information,
you should take in that information and improve your strategy.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Tesla stock is up thirteen hundred percent in the last
ten years. GM is up like twelve thirteen percent. If
GM has the right strategy, why isn't it valued like TESTA?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I think that's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
But I think we're a company that is one hundred
years old and we've had challenges in our past, like bankruptcy.
There's some companies say this is what I'm going to do,
and the value shows up right there.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
We have to prove it, and so we're going to
prove it.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
You have met or beat expectations thirty five out of
the last thirty six quarters. So when you look at
the stock, does it ever piss you off?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
It does, I mean because I but again, I can
get mad about it, and I can be upset and frustrated,
and believe me, I have those moments. Believe me, I
have those moments. But then it's like, Okay, what am
I going to do about it? And so it's kind
of like, let's work harder, Let's make sure we're being
efficient at the end. It's our responsibility. You can't go
home and have a pity party.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
What's it like competing with Elon Musk Well, I.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Have a lot of respect for him and what he's done,
and now we're partners charging infrastructure, so you know, I
have to give credit where credits.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Due, whether or not you like the method, right, he's
a master marketer, certainly bull but also super unpredictable. I mean,
what's that like leading alongside someone like that.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Well, I think I'm going to be Mary Bara. We're
a different company. I think we're held to different standards.
People look at us differently, and I recognize that, so
respect him as a peer in the industry. But General
Letters has to follow our plan, our path, and I
can't try to be.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Something I'm not. Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Unfair that they judge you different?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Now, I always say to my kids, life's not fair,
So why spend any time on it?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
You know, lifestaff fair? Just get over it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I'd love to know what you think of the cyber truck.
America loves GM trucks. Is America going to love the
cyber truck?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
You know?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I haven't had the opportunity to see it in person
or drive it, So I'm going to reserve judgment until you.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Haven't seen what I feel like they're all over.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I've seen pictures, but no, I haven't seen I haven't
seen one even driving by. So I think it's not
really fair for me to have an opinion on something
I haven't driven or actually seen other than a picture.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
How do you think about the competition. I mean, there's
intense competition. There is because trucks are such an important market.
But really there's been other companies over the last decade
or more that have tried to come in and take
the US truck franchise away from the traditional Big three.
But it's a very interesting segment because there's really strong
loyalty and also Designing a truck is very different than
(18:23):
designing of sedan or even a crossover. Those customers we
know them very very well. We know what's important and
think about. You know, a lot of trucks are part
of a person earning their livelihood. So we know trucks
and that's why we started with the Hummer, which is
a super truck, why we have the Silver Router work
truck now the Silver Router RST. We're very committed and
(18:43):
intent on keeping our truck franchise. Elon Musk has mocked
traditional automakers for how long it took them to get
into EBS. Was he right about that?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Even though we were moving, I would have accelerated the
pace know hindsight's twenty twenty, but again, I can't spend
a lot of time on that. So I'm pleased with
where we are now. I'm pleased that we started back
in seventeen and eighteen designing the LTM platform because that's
what enables us to have the vehicles we're launching now
and also will enable us to get to our break
(19:12):
even a variable profit by the end of the year,
in mid single digit profitability next year. So I'm very
proud of that investment. If I could have started a
year earlier or two years earlier, wish I would have.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
The car market has changed so much in the time
that you've been at the company. I was thinking about Japan,
which was king of the car market for a long time,
but even now times are changing. Is there a lesson
in that for GM?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, I think you've got to understand where the customer's going. So,
for instance, the sedan market is very, very small because
once people moved to a crossover in suv, they were
sitting higher. They like that stance. Very few customers will
go back to a sedan unless it's a luxury or
performance sedan, and so you've got to look at those
trends and they're global. I remember many years ago now,
(19:54):
but while I was in this world, st in this market,
customers I was going to want sedans and like people
are people, and we pushed hard in a couple of other
segments to go to crossovers sooner than what the leadership
and the country want. And those are the bets you
make on where the industry's going that where it is.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You've been spending a lot of time in China. What's
your impression of the Chinese car market.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
There's still as tremendous growth opportunities, but you know right
now there's a lot of sorting that's going to have
to happen. There's over one hundred domestic Chinese EV producers.
No market can support that. I think there's only a
handful that are profitable. So there's a lot of sorting
that's going to happen over time.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So sorting means consolidation or some of these will just
go out of business.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Something has to happen. I mean, this is a capital
intensive business. No country, no region can support that many carmakers.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
What's a bigger threat TESLA or BID?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I take them both as significant threats, and that's why
we have to have great vehicles priced right that customers
want to buy.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Do you think legacy American automakers will maintain their position?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I do.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I mean, again, we have to earn that right. I
think we have clearly have the capability to do it.
But we can't rest on our laurels. We can't assume
people are just going to naturally stay with us.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
The car customer is very rational. You've also been spending
a lot of time in Washington. How has GM been
trying to influence policy.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I'd say overall, we're very aligned in the direction to
move to EVS. We think they're better vehicles. One of
the things we've been really asking for is to harmonize
the standards between the EPA and NITZA out of the
DOT and then the Department of Energy. So as you're
going to go and move aggressively into EVS, it's difficult
(21:34):
when you've got to do one thing for one regulatory
body and one for another. So if they can be harmonized,
they'll actually accelerate the move.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Whether it's Trump or Biden in the White House could
mean two very different things for GM. How do you
see it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
We've worked with every administration. We're going to continue to
do that. We're a highly regulated industry, so we have
to we have to have a good relationship with our regulators,
regardless who's in office. So we'll continue to work and
do that. We are committed to our eb plan.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
When Trump was in office, he attacked GM. He attacked
you multiple times over jobs, over manufacturing. How has your
relationship evolved or how did your relationship evolve?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Well, you know a lot of times things were very
public and I would always reach out, and whether it's
talking to him or talking to someone in the administration
at the most senior level, most of the time it
was a misunderstanding. It was not recognizing or GM having
to make tough business decisions that weren't something that they
agreed with.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Trump has already been to Detroit as part of his
reelection campaign, and certainly GM is going to be used
to spark debate. How are you preparing for that? Are
you bracing for more trouble?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
We're going to keep looking to how do we build
the right relationships and how do we keep doing and
help people understand why we're doing what we're doing, and
we'll stay the course.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Is being the target in a situation like that? How
do you deal with a situation like.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I think you have to try to the extent you
can to get in front of it and not be
the target that's communicating helping people understand. The political world
is very different than the business world, and you have
to remember that. And again, we're long cycle business. We
can't just flip on a dime, nor should we.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Biden has made ambitious moves on climate, but I wonder, like,
how worried are you that the entire agenda could change.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I think when you look there's a lot of pieces
that are in some cases legislative, and so could something change,
of course, but I think directionally there's a lot of
pieces in place that would make it hard to make
it a complete change back to only ice vehicles.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Now, while you've been building a new GM and investing
in new EV plants, closing traditional plants, that means people
have lost jobs, Like you've laid off a lot of workers.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
That hurts the people.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That hurts the community, It hurts your reputation depending on
who you ask. How does that sit with you?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
First, we have closed very few plants because I think
when we look at this, we're looking at and that
really wasn't an ev ice EV transition that was making
the business more efficient.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
And we have, but you have laid off a lot.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
We have, but we a lot of those people had
the opportunity to move to another one of our plans.
We actually have more employees from a represented perspective than
we did over the last few years. So it may
not be the job where the job was, but there
is a job for the most part, and so I
think that's important because we also have to continue to
make the business efficient. Competition is fierce. If we don't
(24:26):
make those decisions, we put everything at risk. So we
have to keep driving for that. And then as we've
become more efficient, from an engineering and staff's perspective, we
always have to be looking at how do we drive efficiencies.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
The people who depended on those jobs, how do you
process that? Well, these are human beings and I know
you know, And it's like, depending on the people you
talk to in the community, some people love GM or
some people were touched by these layoffs, it's hard.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I think you have to explain what's happening and why
you want to put yourself in their shoes. Again, for
many people, there was another job move and I can
understand for a lot of people and move is hard
and I can empathize with that. But I also know
with what we went through in twenty eighteen, if we
don't take the steps to drive efficiency, especially as the
(25:12):
whole industry is transforming, we're going to weaken our position.
And then as it relates to some of our technical talent,
we provide support as they have the opportunity to move
to different companies, to different careers, to different industries.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
You just got through a big strike, but there's a
sense that auto workers are still anxious.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
What would you say to them. I don't really know
if they're anxious, you know. I think there was a
lot of misunderstanding as we went through the last negotiation
the industry and GM, for sure, we weren't looking for
a concessionary agreement. We knew how hard our manufacturing team
members work through COVID, coming back into the plants when
we didn't really understand it, and following the safety protocols
(25:51):
to make sure they could safely build vehicles. So I
don't know if there's confusion or angs. I think it's
more we got through that, recognize our employees, and now
we're going to continue to move forward to keep them
understanding where we're headed as a business and why that's
best for their future, and we'll move forward.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
GM has had its site set on self driving since
two thousand and seven the DARPA Grand Challenge, and I
read that a GM scout actually spotted Cruise. What got
you hooked on Cruise?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well, when you think about autonomous driving today, depending on
the year, forty thousand people in the US alone lose
their lives and ninety percent of those excents are caused
by human error, and so I think as a company,
is the technology becomes available, we have a responsibility to
solve those problems for society.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I rode in a Cruse vehicle just a few months
before it shut down in San Francisco, and it wasn't
the smoothest ride, but I could see the promise. I
could see the perils broadly.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
What went wrong at Cruise in your view, Well, I
think we didn't recognize the team there, didn't recognize the
need to build a relationship with the local regulators, the
state regulators as well as the first responders. I think
they believe, Hey, this technology is so great, it's got
such a great promise. We've already demonstrated safer than a
human driver. We'll get it out there and people will
(27:08):
love it. Well, I don't think technology adoption happens that
way that many times, and so I believe in the
technology and what we're working on. We need to relaunch
with very much a focus of as we go into
a community, making sure the local leadership, the regulators, and
the community understands the why of the technology, why it's
better safer, giving people who don't have mobility for whatever reason,
(27:32):
the opportunity to have that freedom, so we can do
a much better job communicating. But I'm really proud of
the work that the team's done. From a technology perspective.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Surely, if self driving cars were on the roads and
the volume that regular cars are, there would be computer errors,
wouldn't There there's human errors now. I think the fear
is that the computers are going to make mistakes too
a lot of times. So when you think about human error,
the software doesn't drive impaired, It knows all the traffic
LAFE and rules, and so there's just such a higher
(28:03):
probability now if but there have been accidents, there have,
and some of those, you know, you look at it
and say, regardless if it was a human or autonomous
hicle driving, that would have happened if something falls in
front of the vehicle right as it's moving. So I
think you have to put it into perspective. But I
think when we accept losing forty thousand lives a year,
we can do better. So what's the plan to fix
(28:26):
cruise and can get it back on track.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Our focus right now is we're working on what is
the relaunch plan? Because we believe in the core technology
and the team that's doing that. So we have said,
in the next handful of weeks or a couple months,
we'll be rolling out that new plan, and we plan
to go to one city and really demonstrate building the relationships,
engaging the community and demonstrating the technology and the good
(28:49):
that it provides, and then we'll go from there.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
You know, folks say way Mo is a lot farther
along than cruise. How much is riding on your ability
to turn this around.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
A couple of years ago, there were many companies saying,
you know, we're going to have autonomous driving next year,
and I think everybody's learned it's a big challenge, but
it's something I believe that we can do. We're working
that plan right now, and when it's completing approved, we'll
be transparent and we'll share.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And you're still committed to self driving absolutely, and you're
going to be selling these cars. Is it's a robo
taxi system? Like, what does this look like in the future.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Well, I think as we go forward, there's opportunity from
a robo taxi. There's also opportunity from personal autonomous vehicles
that I think would change the way people move so
that gives me confidence we need to move forward.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
A Weimo was recently vandalized in San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I believe that they.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Set it on fire. Why do you think there's still
so much resistance, Like, where is that coming from?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Well, I think we're both operating in that city. I
don't want to speak for Weimo. I have respect for
the team and for Alphabet, but I think building the
relationship with the community is very important, and I think
those are issues that we're going to have to work through.
I can tell you there's other communities that are very
interested in the technology because they see the promise.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
It comes to av's and EV's. I still wonder do
consumers really want this. Do you think they're bought into
the future or are you looking at this with the
mentality of if we build it, they will come.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Well, if we build something better and when they get
exposed to it, they will like it and they will
adopt it. And I really believe EV's are better, and
I believe when autonomous technology offers the promise, I know
it has to make daily lives better. I mean, I
love to drive, but before in staff and go traffic,
you can be more productive. So I think there's a
(30:31):
huge opportunity. And again it's life changing technology. Where do
you want GM to be in five years in a
leadership position with evs and having av technology that customers
really understand and love.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
What about in one hundred and fifteen years? I mean,
this company has been around one hundred and fifteen years.
Where is it going to be in another century? But
you know, it is really cool.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
When we were working on our purpose, we went back
and I actually read the initial articles of and corporation
for the company, and in that they talked about electric vehicles,
they talked about flying vehicles, and so who knows what
our future holds, but I think our forefathers were pretty
innovated and saw along futures.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And what do you want your chapter in this history
to look like like when it's written? What do they
say about Mary Bara?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I don't know what they'll say, But I'm here working
to make sure we build a strong team, that we
have a strong foundation. So as we're in the middle
of this incredibly exciting transformation, we're well positioned for the
next one one hundred and fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
All right, Well, we're not going to be here in
one hundred and fifteen years, but I never know, We
never know. They're making a lot of progress on They're
doing a lot of things to help us live longer.
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to
this episode of the Circuit. You can watch the full
episode for a closer look at Mary's quest to drive
GM into the future. I'm Emily Chang. Follow me on
(31:56):
Twitter and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. You can watch
new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or on
demand by downloading the Bloomberg app to your smart tv,
and check out other Bloomberg podcasts on Apple Podcasts, the
iHeartMedia app, or wherever you listen to your shows, and
please let us know what you think by leaving a review.
I'm your host and executive producer. Our senior producers are
(32:16):
Lauren Ellis and Alan Jeffries. Our associate producer is Tyler Kota.
Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks again,
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