May 5, 2024 • 27 mins
Defending dad bods. Bad Therapy.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Bold, reverence, and occasionally random. The Sunday Hang with Playing
podcast starts now.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We're having a very spirited discussion among the among the
team here about this vote.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I don't care about the Travis kelce Taylor Swift relationship,
and I actually don't. I know people, I don't care
when the click, like, I really don't care. I hope
they're very happy and they have a nice I actually
route for other people to have a stable, happy, romantic lives,
and I like to see people doing well. But what's
gotten a lot of attention is that Travis kelcey who's
an NFL what is he a tight end?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
That's right? Boom, good job, buddy, thank.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You, thank you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, yeah, tight end in the football game. And uh
and you know he's shirtless on a beach with Taylor
Swift and everyone's like, oh, he doesn't look like a
professional athlete. Like like people really think that fitness or
or or being a a fit person is basically now
(01:03):
being a bodybuilder. And I don't think that there's really
much under I obviously I am very far from being a bodybuilder.
I do have some friends who are bodybuilders and very
into that lifestyle and that whole world, and it is
a specific thing to look like, you know, like a superhero.
Even actors when they get ready for superhero movies, they
(01:24):
have a very specific diet, a very specific training regimen.
It is not sustainable. And unlike NFL athletes, they are
taking performance enhancing drugs. Everyone needs to wake up. Every
action movie hero you saw in the eighties was taking steroids.
All these fitness influencers who are so incredibly jacked are
(01:45):
taking peptides or steroids or TRT or whatever. I'm in Miami,
so it's like the epicenter of this clay. There's all
these clinics and they're always telling you, oh, like, we'll
triple your TRT and they, I mean, they can do it.
They're injecting with the sascern. Travis Kelcey is what a
professional athlete looks like. This is what people don't or
at least a professional football player looks like at his position.
(02:08):
Everyone's saying he's got a dad bot. I'm like, what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I aspire to a Travis Kelcey tad pot.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Like what are people talking about?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
So I had a couple of So I told you
this yesterday. As soon as the pictures went viral, I
was like, they're gonna rip Travis kelcey because he's not
fit enough. I had a couple of reactions to it.
One and I bet almost everybody listening to us will agree.
I don't think that even if you're famous, I don't
think people should be taking photos of you at the
(02:39):
beach secretly when you're hanging out with your family or
you're on vacation. If you want to post photos of yourself,
I think that's different. But I'm anti like Travis kelce
Taylor Swift. She's in a bikini, as almost every thirty
something woman would be. He's in like board shorts, as
almost every already something your old guy would be. I'm
(03:02):
very anti. They go on vacation and there are people
snapping photos of them everywhere they go. I think that's
not normal. I think we should you know, again, if
you want to take photos yourself, and so a couple
of things on that she's getting ripped for not And
I saw her and I thought she looked phenomenal, right,
like she's in her thirties, she's in a bikini. I
(03:23):
thought she looked fantastic. But what percentage of people do
you think would be comfortable with a stranger, regardless of
what you do for a living, taking a photo of
you at the beach or at a pool on a
vacation and posting it on social media and allowing everybody
(03:44):
to react. Because I'll tell you specifically here Buck, I went,
this is funny, This is a little bit funny. But
I went to a water park with my kids in uh,
right before school started in August last year up at
the Smoky Mountains We went to like Great Smoking Mountains
water Park. Will not surprise you, A lot of people
at the Great Smoky Mountains water Park knew me right.
(04:06):
They're football fans. Uh, they're they're in Tennessee where I am.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I want to take photos with you when you were shirtless.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, And my wife was like, uh, my wife was.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I was just like, I don't want to be getting
my pictures taken when I'm standing in line with a float,
looking fat and flabby with my kids trying to go
at a water park.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Have you seen the Nate Bargatsy bit, you know, I know,
you know it from Nashville where he says he's a
parking lot, he's in a parking lot changing his shirt
and an old man comes up to him and says, Olivia,
that's kind of That's.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Kind of how I would feel I when I see
these photos, I think we should have a national conversation.
If you want to take your own picture and post
your own picture, that's fine, But like the surreptitious secret
photos of people on family vacations.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You're like, so you don't have an expectation of privacy,
you know, you get into all this stuff. I mean, yes, Clay,
I agree. I think most people would agree. First of all,
the paparazzi thing is a fraction of what it used
to be because of social media now, so because people
post their own photos, which I think is actually positive.
The harpies of the paparazzi just constantly, you know, hovering
(05:16):
around people and harassing them and everything else. That's there's
far less of that now than there used to be,
just because there's so much more. You know, Kim Kardashian's
already put up ten photos of herself today. You really
need the paparazzi photo. I mean, you know, if people
it drives less clicks. But I still am focused on
the fact that people are like Travis Kelcey, Like it's
not even as though he let himself go and he's
(05:36):
got a gut in the off season. Like he's a lean,
strong what is he like six four six ' five,
he's a big he's thirty five years old. He is
in peak physical ability. Whatever you think about Travis Kelcey,
go run forty yards. However, if you're a guy right now,
go run forty yards as fast as you can and
(05:57):
see how many times you can do a forty yard sprint,
I is air twenty yard sprint. Whatever you want to say,
the guy is in phenomenal physical condition. Not to mention
getting hit while he's doing it, but I really believe this.
I mean, if you go on you know, Instagram, I
think is this place where you see this the most?
Uh less so on Facebook. Facebook is kind of more
of an older demo now, but on Instagram you'll see this.
(06:18):
You have so many of these, I mean obviously not
all of them, but so many of these fitness influences
that are The men are enormously jacked, right like yeah,
incredibly low body fat, incredibly you know, like big muscle structure,
and the women are all super lean and generally have
(06:39):
very large fake breasts. Okay, this is the other thing
you see and sort of the fitness. This is not
what people look There are these a lot of them.
They're taking stuff. They don't tell you they're taking stuff.
One of the worst things you see a lot of
these Hollywood transformations or these people that say, oh, you know,
I just look at what look at Gerard Butler in
three hundred and look at him six months later or
(07:00):
a year later. Like, these people are not maintaining these
things they do for movies. They go on very strict regimens.
A lot of them are taking performance in it that
There are clinics all over Miami where you can walk
in there and they will start and they're like doctors
will do this. They will start injecting you with things
that will build muscle and cut fat before you have
lifted a weight. This is happening all over the place,
(07:23):
all over Hollywood. I'm not saying if you live in Oklahoma,
yeah not everyone's walking around on TRT. But I'm saying
the perceptions of what famous people should look like.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Now, I mean Elon Musk. Elon Musk is a nerd.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
He's a genius. I think his work is amazing wheneverybody's
basically a super nerd, Like he's a guy who runs companies,
has like brilliant vision for the future, and he loves
video games and he takes there's a shirtless photo of
this guy when he's on a yacht, and everyone's like,
why there's an elon, Like he must lack discipline.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
What's he supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I just I think what you're hitting on is one
of the things why I think societ he peaked in
nineteen ninety nine. But on a more serious level, this
is why thirty percent of teenage girls in the past
year I have thought about committing suicide because they go on
Instagram and they look at all these fabulously good looking people.
And I think Instagram in particular is a medium by
(08:19):
which people are defined by how they look. I like
Twitter X whatever you want to call it, because it's
defined primarily by what your opinion is, like what you say,
as opposed to what you look like, and a lot
of it's completely artificial. And so when you see Taylor
Swift and she's a good looking mid thirties woman, and
you see Travis Kelsey, I just think it's to your point.
(08:40):
It is reflective of how abnormal perceptions body reality are.
And that's why I say I think people get it
when you ask that question, how many of you on
your last vacation would have been comfortable with your girlfriend
or your boyfriend, or your husband or your wife, your
significant other, whatever it is, snapping a photo of you.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, but it's walk that so focus on this. This
only happens to famous people, so no one really sits
around thinking.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
About it because I don't think people think about the
photo and how it comes about. I think you would
feel differently analyzing it if you thought to yourself, what
if photos are.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Just getting taken and people are popping it out there.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think people would say that Taylor Swift and Travis
Kelcey are used to a lot of photos being taken
of them.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Even but I want to vacate, Like my thought is,
when you go to an exclusive vacation, if I'm paying
fifteen thousand dollars a night, which is supposedly what they
were paying, really, yes, I don't want any photos getting
taken of me at that resort the whole time I'm there.
I want to just be able to chill and hang
out with my significant other. So my thought when I
(09:44):
see it is just we've normalized things that if they
happen to you would be totally abnormal, and just in
the back of your mind think about it a little bit,
and I think it changes the way that people contemplate it.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Also, the people who are saying, I mean, look, it's
the Internet, and people are hypercritical about all this stuff,
but that are saying, like Taylor, you know that Taylor
Swift doesn't look good or whatever. These people are in
these people are insane. Well, this is like this is
this is like when they were saying Margot Robbie is
mid yes, meaning that she's like middle of the pack
in terms of her looks. Also, the obsession with the
world is more appearance is more of a commodity than
(10:19):
it has ever been. I think American society is more
obsessed with appearance than it has ever been. I think
that our superficiality is worse than it has ever been.
I think that it is terrible in the world of
dating now that basically people talk about like online dating
and all this stuff, it's really just sorting by appearance.
That's actually what it is. And and I know you
say Oh, well, that's what attraction is.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
That's different.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Actually, it used to be kind of life what happened
and you you know, interact with people. Now it's just
are you a seven? Are you a four? Are you
a ten? And you only deal with those other people
and and there's a there's a lot, there's a lot
of soul searching. It needs to be done. Of course,
the worst version of this is, you know, only fans
is a billion dollar industry, and you know, women's beauty
is being exploited for everything other than just being appreciated
(11:03):
as a stepping stone to like motherhood. And you know,
like there's a lot of a lot of problems I
have with all.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
I think it ties in with everything being on the phone.
Appearance got commoditized when it became so easy to take pictures.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, think about it.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
This is one of the things that I've always said,
we I feel very fortunate to be the age that
I am because I grew up in much of a
pre internet age. But I'm not so old that I
didn't understand the Internet. But it used to be you
had to take a camera out and there was time
that you had to you take a picture, and then
you go through and you like, you know whatever, Now
we take so many photos that we have commoditized appearance.
(11:38):
I think you're right on a level that has never
occurred in the history of man con.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I think about this my if you look at your iCloud,
like my life according to the Internet started around twenty eleven. Yeah,
that's what meaning in terms of photos like that's when
all of a sudden, I have I have, like you know,
very few I have thanks to legacy box. I can
enjoy someone they much old photos, but I have not
nearly as much as it used to. So that that's
(12:03):
also a big part of it too, and the whole
selfie culture and everything else. And I really think it
leads to a lot of misery. And I think that
your bigger point about what it's doing to women in particular.
You know, these influencers are putting photos of themselves up
that are that are face tuned, and they're they're they're
changing them around and this whole thing, you know, And
this is my way of saying, Travis and Taylor look
(12:23):
great in their bathing suits. Don't be idiots.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I would also say this the number of guys out
there that are really unattractive that feel comfortable demeaning women
online never ceases to astound me. Right, there's only so
many people that are actually good looking. What are the
odds that incredibly good looking people are the ones that
are spending time judging people online.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I think it's relatively low.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
There's that great meme where it's like a guy you know,
sitting at his computer like she's a seven, I'd never
date her, and it's like, you know, he's three hundred
and fifty pounds, like unshaven for weeks. Like that's really
a lot of the people that are making these comments.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Sunday hang with Clay and Bucks.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I gotta tell you, I was a little surprised to
see this, and I brought it up with Carol, and
I didn't think this was a huge news story by
any means, but the whole like Travis Kelcey being body
shamed and Taylor Swift too, I think I just sort
of see some of this down in Miami because there's
such an obsession with physique here and there's so much Honestly,
(13:28):
people are just taking all kinds of stuff. Clay that
ex tweet on that six point eight million views, one
hundred and twenty three thousand likes of my little musing
on Travis Kelcey and Taylor Swift, which you said, I
think is very astute. The Swifties may have caught onto this,
and fortunately I have not offended them.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
You may be the swifties favorite media person now one
hundred and twenty three thousand likes for you defending Travis
Kelcey and his dad bod.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
But I think it that's it. Look, dad Bod defense
is a hill I will die on. I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, good for you.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean, I'm looking at the comments, and I do
think so many people out there, why about the fact
that they're taking things that will probably make them illegal
to play in sports. Right, That's the other thing about
why Travis Kelsey isn't super ripped. He gets tested for
this stuff all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And I've come across people who are delusional. I've come
across people who have told me that they're taking stuff,
and then later on they'll tell me that they aren't
taking stuff, and I'm like, but you already told me
you are, and they're like, no, I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I'm like, Okay, this is getting real deep, real deep
psychological stuff here.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Sundays with Clay and Buck Bad Therapy, Why the Kids
Aren't Growing Up? By Abigail Shreer. I am going to
read this book. Bucket's got his own copy as well.
We get a lot of books, Abigail, who is with
us now, A lot of times. To be frank, I
don't have the time to be able to read them.
I've put this on my list. My wife wants to
(14:59):
re you are absolutely killing it, and so I want
to start with this though, before we get into the book.
You have had a similar experience as me. When American
Playbook came out, it was the number one selling nonfiction
book in America. It did not make the New York
Times list. Your book went to number one, I believe
(15:20):
on Amazon, which is virtually unheard of. It did not
make one of the fifteen best selling books in America.
This is one of the best endorsements of a book
I can give you because to me, it means the
Times does not want your book to get the publicity
and attention. Explain that for listeners out there who I
think a lot of people think the New York Times
(15:40):
just ranks the best selling books. They don't at all.
Why is this significant? And what does it say to
you that they have avoided recognizing how many people are
buying and reading your book.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well, you know, they don't like anybody who kicks the
legs out of their narrative, right. So with the last book,
they were very very unhappy with me because I wrote,
you know, about the epidemic of teenage girls deciding they
were transgender, and I you know, pointed out the risks
and I argued it was a social contagion. And the
book was really successful, and that bothered the New York
(16:13):
Times a lot because eventually they had to admit those risks.
So in this book, you know, bad therapy really just
says that, you know, the the question is why are
these why does this generation think it so unwell? Why
are they awash and diagnosis? Why are they constantly taking
mental health days off of work? Why do they think
(16:37):
that they're why are they all and why don't they
all have a diagnosis? Why are they all on psychmads
or so many of them? And why do they never
say they're shy they have social phobia, and they never
say they're nervous, they say they have anxiety. They never
say they're sad, they say they're depressed and and the
point of the book was really to empower parents to
stop listening to these so called experts who are really
(17:00):
the undermining parental authority, really undermining especially dad's ability to
do what they think is right. It's often the men
who get who have changed the most and gotten the
most undermined by these so called experts. And that's the
last group that The New York Times ever wants to
give any you know, power to Abigail's.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Buck thanks for being with us. To what degree do
you think there's some connection possibly between the fact that
the psychiatric and psychologist profession is, by far, according to
all the data, and I don't think anybody disagrees with this,
the most left wing by political affiliation of any of
the medical specialties.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I mean to the.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Point where now you have some of these medical associations
that are going along with and you wrote the book
about about gender identity disorder, genderis for you whatever, they're
going along with things like men can get pregnant. I mean,
they actually are going along with anti science. And how
much politicization is to blame for this.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Sure so a lot. I mean the group that had
remember these accrediting organizations had nothing to say when kids
were heading into a second year.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Of lock lockout.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
What did they do?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
They showed up in Congress to warrn about police tactics,
climate change, right and systemic racism. They had a lot
to say about that. Now they think there's the solution
to kids' mental health. You know, in the book, I argue,
there are a large part of the problem. And here's
the connection to what you just raised. You know, if
you have intergenerational trauma, if all kids are walking around
(18:38):
with the trauma of their ancestors, not true, by the way,
it's a lot of nonsense. But if they are, then
colonialism and slavery are with us today. There continue to
harm these kids. Now we know it isn't true. It
hasn't been true, and I went into the research to
show that it wasn't true. But you know them Unfortunately
(18:58):
a lot of good parents have been undermined by the
idea that they don't know what's best for their kids'
mental health, and so they've been strong armed once again
into not doing what's right for their kids.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Bad therapy is the book Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up?
And I am already starting to read this a little bit, Abigail,
But I read your excerpts. I think it was in
the Wall Street Journal, which I thought was really interesting,
and I want you to expand upon this because I
see it at the front of the book too. Talk
(19:30):
therapy can induce rumination, trapping kids in cycles of anxiety
and depression.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
This is what some of your research has found.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Social emotional learning handicaps our most vulnerable children in both
public schools in private. The piece that I read that
you excerpted was talking about how as parents were constantly
sort of taught to ask our kids how they feel,
and that that is making kids believe that whatever their
feeling is is their truth, as opposed to, you know,
(20:01):
teaching them that their emotions are going to vary and
that it can't be the guidepost of their life.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I thought it was so fascinating.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Explain what you uncovered about that focusing on feelings and
treating them as legitimate.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Sure, focusing on feelings which we know are in constant
and often even inaccurate guides to whether we have been
hurt or injured, or whether we're in the right Catting
kids to constantly focus on their feelings is actually a
recipe for misery. We know this, the psychological research shows it.
We're just doing the opposite. We're going into schools and
(20:36):
as parents were doing the same thing. We're constantly asking
kids how are they feeling about this? How are they
feeling about that? We're inducing a constant focus on their
negative feelings. Why is it negative? Because of course, if
you ask someone constantly how they're feeling, they're actually going
to produce mostly negative responses. And the reason is in
(20:57):
all of our you know, thousands of wakeful seconds, most
of them are not in a state called happy. They're
in some kind of period of irritation, itch, discomfort, worry,
and getting kids to focus on those things while rather
than going out and doing good. That's the opposite of
(21:18):
what we want to be doing. But the other's another
bad thing when with things like social emotional learning, constantly
asking kids about their negative feelings in school. But what
I want parents to know is it naturally tease up
a criticism of the parents. Why because parents are the
ones whose job it is to keep a child safe.
So if they were terribly traumatized by an incident, the
(21:40):
next question is where was mom.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I think the data you mentioned dads, I think the data.
And I'm curious if you find this that as dads
have become less involved in two parent households, the overall
health of kids has collapsed, mental health in many ways.
And there's this idea, and I bet you've read about
it and studied at Abigail that lots of people, even
(22:06):
on the left, they talk left, but they live right.
That is, they have nuclear families in their own life.
A lot of people wagging their finger at you on
MSNBC and CNN. They are married to a woman or
they're married to a man. They have traditional household structures,
they raise the kids in the two parent household, and
then they lecture anyone who suggests that that would be
(22:29):
a good model, even though they're following it themselves. Where
does fatherhood rank and factor in here in your research?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
So what father is that men are the ones who
have changed the most in terms of parenting in the
last generation. I mean, here's why. All of their instincts
they were told are bad for the kid's mental health.
Telling a kid you'll live, you're gonna be fine, shake
it off or knock it off, that kind of thing.
They were told don't do that. It's bad for their
(22:56):
mental health. Basically that would that is the wrong way
to proceed. And so the kids got no balance. They
got constant empathy, they got constant eliciting of their feelings,
and never a sense that they would be resilient, they
would be fine. And here's the other thing. They weren't
told that their grandparents went through much worse. See your grandparents,
(23:20):
that's the only proof you've got that your genetic material
is resilient. They need to hear what dad and mom
and grandparents went through and great grandparents went through. It's
the only proof they've got that they can get through
it too.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Abigail Schreier, the author Bad Therapy While the Kids aren't
growing up is the book? Recommend you all get a
copy of it now. And just in terms of the
therapy component of this for kids, how much of this
do you think is also the usage of the medicalization
of childhood discontent, which we all go through at different
(23:59):
times right in our knee, at different times we fall
off the jungle gymo. Though now I don't even if
there are jungle gyms anymore, like you can't really the
playgrounds have changed a lot from what they used to be.
But by medicalizing these problems. It means that they can
get at kids and indoctrinate them younger and younger.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
That's right. They get them into the mental health pipeline
and they never leave. They just get more and more medication.
And here's the thing. Sometimes kids are going through a
bad phase. Sometimes they're going to outgrow it. And there's
something else too. When you get in and delete their
normal resources with medication, their normal sadness, you're also capping
the happiness, the highs. You're altering. You may be deleting
(24:38):
a sex drive and a young kid who's just starting puberty,
and you're doing all the things that will make it
harder for them to adjust to and cope with normal life.
And that's what we're seeing, a generation that can't cope Abigail.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
How much does social media play in here in terms
of I talk about this on the show sometimes. One
of the most staggering stats I've seen thirty percent of
teenage girls have thought about killing themselves in the last year.
I mean, that is an unbelievable number. Obviously, that is
feelings triumphing over the logic of their life. Because I
can't imagine that thirty percent of women and teenage girls
(25:14):
are actually living in dire straits. How much of that
is a function of the feelings that they get from
social media, And how should parents, in your mind, contemplate
social media.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Social media is bad, it's hurting this problem, no doubt.
You know, I wrote about the last book, a social
contagion of trans identification that was basically spread largely through
social media. But here's the problem. The sad things they're feeling,
the sad feelings they have, you know, if they feel
lonely and depressed, partially because social media were then remediating
(25:49):
it with mental health, not giving them a better life,
not taking away the phone, not curving social media, but
giving them more and more mental health interventions that aren't working. Diagnosis, medication,
it's not working. It's counterproductive. Why Because it's the life
that's a problem. And the reason we know this is
liberal boys from teenage teenage boys from liberal families have
(26:13):
worse mental health. Sorry, teenage boys from liberal families have
worse mental health than teenage girls from conservative families. Now,
let me tell you the girls are on a lot
more social media, but the difference is in the environment,
the lack of authority from parents, the introduction of mental
health experts into the home at the first indication of
(26:33):
sadness or a problem. All those things, and the constant
surveillance of any activity, never letting these kids have real
independence and trying to do something in the world even
when it's dangerous like or has potential danger like walking
home from school. Those are all things that make a
kid feel capable, and we're not letting him do those things.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
How to go fer Everybody. Why the kids are aren't
growing up?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Bad therapy.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Why the Kids aren't growing up is the book. Abigail,
thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate the time.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Oh thank you. Take care
Bold, reverence, and occasionally random. The Sunday Hang with Playing
podcast starts now.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We're having a very spirited discussion among the among the
team here about this vote.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I don't care about the Travis kelce Taylor Swift relationship,
and I actually don't. I know people, I don't care
when the click, like, I really don't care. I hope
they're very happy and they have a nice I actually
route for other people to have a stable, happy, romantic lives,
and I like to see people doing well. But what's
gotten a lot of attention is that Travis kelcey who's
an NFL what is he a tight end?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
That's right? Boom, good job, buddy, thank.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You, thank you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, yeah, tight end in the football game. And uh
and you know he's shirtless on a beach with Taylor
Swift and everyone's like, oh, he doesn't look like a
professional athlete. Like like people really think that fitness or
or or being a a fit person is basically now
(01:03):
being a bodybuilder. And I don't think that there's really
much under I obviously I am very far from being a bodybuilder.
I do have some friends who are bodybuilders and very
into that lifestyle and that whole world, and it is
a specific thing to look like, you know, like a superhero.
Even actors when they get ready for superhero movies, they
(01:24):
have a very specific diet, a very specific training regimen.
It is not sustainable. And unlike NFL athletes, they are
taking performance enhancing drugs. Everyone needs to wake up. Every
action movie hero you saw in the eighties was taking steroids.
All these fitness influencers who are so incredibly jacked are
(01:45):
taking peptides or steroids or TRT or whatever. I'm in Miami,
so it's like the epicenter of this clay. There's all
these clinics and they're always telling you, oh, like, we'll
triple your TRT and they, I mean, they can do it.
They're injecting with the sascern. Travis Kelcey is what a
professional athlete looks like. This is what people don't or
at least a professional football player looks like at his position.
(02:08):
Everyone's saying he's got a dad bot. I'm like, what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I aspire to a Travis Kelcey tad pot.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Like what are people talking about?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
So I had a couple of So I told you
this yesterday. As soon as the pictures went viral, I
was like, they're gonna rip Travis kelcey because he's not
fit enough. I had a couple of reactions to it.
One and I bet almost everybody listening to us will agree.
I don't think that even if you're famous, I don't
think people should be taking photos of you at the
(02:39):
beach secretly when you're hanging out with your family or
you're on vacation. If you want to post photos of yourself,
I think that's different. But I'm anti like Travis kelce
Taylor Swift. She's in a bikini, as almost every thirty
something woman would be. He's in like board shorts, as
almost every already something your old guy would be. I'm
(03:02):
very anti. They go on vacation and there are people
snapping photos of them everywhere they go. I think that's
not normal. I think we should you know, again, if
you want to take photos yourself, and so a couple
of things on that she's getting ripped for not And
I saw her and I thought she looked phenomenal, right,
like she's in her thirties, she's in a bikini. I
(03:23):
thought she looked fantastic. But what percentage of people do
you think would be comfortable with a stranger, regardless of
what you do for a living, taking a photo of
you at the beach or at a pool on a
vacation and posting it on social media and allowing everybody
(03:44):
to react. Because I'll tell you specifically here Buck, I went,
this is funny, This is a little bit funny. But
I went to a water park with my kids in uh,
right before school started in August last year up at
the Smoky Mountains We went to like Great Smoking Mountains
water Park. Will not surprise you, A lot of people
at the Great Smoky Mountains water Park knew me right.
(04:06):
They're football fans. Uh, they're they're in Tennessee where I am.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I want to take photos with you when you were shirtless.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, And my wife was like, uh, my wife was.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I was just like, I don't want to be getting
my pictures taken when I'm standing in line with a float,
looking fat and flabby with my kids trying to go
at a water park.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Have you seen the Nate Bargatsy bit, you know, I know,
you know it from Nashville where he says he's a
parking lot, he's in a parking lot changing his shirt
and an old man comes up to him and says, Olivia,
that's kind of That's.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Kind of how I would feel I when I see
these photos, I think we should have a national conversation.
If you want to take your own picture and post
your own picture, that's fine, But like the surreptitious secret
photos of people on family vacations.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You're like, so you don't have an expectation of privacy,
you know, you get into all this stuff. I mean, yes, Clay,
I agree. I think most people would agree. First of all,
the paparazzi thing is a fraction of what it used
to be because of social media now, so because people
post their own photos, which I think is actually positive.
The harpies of the paparazzi just constantly, you know, hovering
(05:16):
around people and harassing them and everything else. That's there's
far less of that now than there used to be,
just because there's so much more. You know, Kim Kardashian's
already put up ten photos of herself today. You really
need the paparazzi photo. I mean, you know, if people
it drives less clicks. But I still am focused on
the fact that people are like Travis Kelcey, Like it's
not even as though he let himself go and he's
(05:36):
got a gut in the off season. Like he's a lean,
strong what is he like six four six ' five,
he's a big he's thirty five years old. He is
in peak physical ability. Whatever you think about Travis Kelcey,
go run forty yards. However, if you're a guy right now,
go run forty yards as fast as you can and
(05:57):
see how many times you can do a forty yard sprint,
I is air twenty yard sprint. Whatever you want to say,
the guy is in phenomenal physical condition. Not to mention
getting hit while he's doing it, but I really believe this.
I mean, if you go on you know, Instagram, I
think is this place where you see this the most?
Uh less so on Facebook. Facebook is kind of more
of an older demo now, but on Instagram you'll see this.
(06:18):
You have so many of these, I mean obviously not
all of them, but so many of these fitness influences
that are The men are enormously jacked, right like yeah,
incredibly low body fat, incredibly you know, like big muscle structure,
and the women are all super lean and generally have
(06:39):
very large fake breasts. Okay, this is the other thing
you see and sort of the fitness. This is not
what people look There are these a lot of them.
They're taking stuff. They don't tell you they're taking stuff.
One of the worst things you see a lot of
these Hollywood transformations or these people that say, oh, you know,
I just look at what look at Gerard Butler in
three hundred and look at him six months later or
(07:00):
a year later. Like, these people are not maintaining these
things they do for movies. They go on very strict regimens.
A lot of them are taking performance in it that
There are clinics all over Miami where you can walk
in there and they will start and they're like doctors
will do this. They will start injecting you with things
that will build muscle and cut fat before you have
lifted a weight. This is happening all over the place,
(07:23):
all over Hollywood. I'm not saying if you live in Oklahoma,
yeah not everyone's walking around on TRT. But I'm saying
the perceptions of what famous people should look like.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Now, I mean Elon Musk. Elon Musk is a nerd.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
He's a genius. I think his work is amazing wheneverybody's
basically a super nerd, Like he's a guy who runs companies,
has like brilliant vision for the future, and he loves
video games and he takes there's a shirtless photo of
this guy when he's on a yacht, and everyone's like,
why there's an elon, Like he must lack discipline.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
What's he supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I just I think what you're hitting on is one
of the things why I think societ he peaked in
nineteen ninety nine. But on a more serious level, this
is why thirty percent of teenage girls in the past
year I have thought about committing suicide because they go on
Instagram and they look at all these fabulously good looking people.
And I think Instagram in particular is a medium by
(08:19):
which people are defined by how they look. I like
Twitter X whatever you want to call it, because it's
defined primarily by what your opinion is, like what you say,
as opposed to what you look like, and a lot
of it's completely artificial. And so when you see Taylor
Swift and she's a good looking mid thirties woman, and
you see Travis Kelsey, I just think it's to your point.
(08:40):
It is reflective of how abnormal perceptions body reality are.
And that's why I say I think people get it
when you ask that question, how many of you on
your last vacation would have been comfortable with your girlfriend
or your boyfriend, or your husband or your wife, your
significant other, whatever it is, snapping a photo of you.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, but it's walk that so focus on this. This
only happens to famous people, so no one really sits
around thinking.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
About it because I don't think people think about the
photo and how it comes about. I think you would
feel differently analyzing it if you thought to yourself, what
if photos are.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Just getting taken and people are popping it out there.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think people would say that Taylor Swift and Travis
Kelcey are used to a lot of photos being taken
of them.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Even but I want to vacate, Like my thought is,
when you go to an exclusive vacation, if I'm paying
fifteen thousand dollars a night, which is supposedly what they
were paying, really, yes, I don't want any photos getting
taken of me at that resort the whole time I'm there.
I want to just be able to chill and hang
out with my significant other. So my thought when I
(09:44):
see it is just we've normalized things that if they
happen to you would be totally abnormal, and just in
the back of your mind think about it a little bit,
and I think it changes the way that people contemplate it.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Also, the people who are saying, I mean, look, it's
the Internet, and people are hypercritical about all this stuff,
but that are saying, like Taylor, you know that Taylor
Swift doesn't look good or whatever. These people are in
these people are insane. Well, this is like this is
this is like when they were saying Margot Robbie is
mid yes, meaning that she's like middle of the pack
in terms of her looks. Also, the obsession with the
world is more appearance is more of a commodity than
(10:19):
it has ever been. I think American society is more
obsessed with appearance than it has ever been. I think
that our superficiality is worse than it has ever been.
I think that it is terrible in the world of
dating now that basically people talk about like online dating
and all this stuff, it's really just sorting by appearance.
That's actually what it is. And and I know you
say Oh, well, that's what attraction is.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
That's different.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Actually, it used to be kind of life what happened
and you you know, interact with people. Now it's just
are you a seven? Are you a four? Are you
a ten? And you only deal with those other people
and and there's a there's a lot, there's a lot
of soul searching. It needs to be done. Of course,
the worst version of this is, you know, only fans
is a billion dollar industry, and you know, women's beauty
is being exploited for everything other than just being appreciated
(11:03):
as a stepping stone to like motherhood. And you know,
like there's a lot of a lot of problems I
have with all.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
I think it ties in with everything being on the phone.
Appearance got commoditized when it became so easy to take pictures.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, think about it.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
This is one of the things that I've always said,
we I feel very fortunate to be the age that
I am because I grew up in much of a
pre internet age. But I'm not so old that I
didn't understand the Internet. But it used to be you
had to take a camera out and there was time
that you had to you take a picture, and then
you go through and you like, you know whatever, Now
we take so many photos that we have commoditized appearance.
(11:38):
I think you're right on a level that has never
occurred in the history of man con.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I think about this my if you look at your iCloud,
like my life according to the Internet started around twenty eleven. Yeah,
that's what meaning in terms of photos like that's when
all of a sudden, I have I have, like you know,
very few I have thanks to legacy box. I can
enjoy someone they much old photos, but I have not
nearly as much as it used to. So that that's
(12:03):
also a big part of it too, and the whole
selfie culture and everything else. And I really think it
leads to a lot of misery. And I think that
your bigger point about what it's doing to women in particular.
You know, these influencers are putting photos of themselves up
that are that are face tuned, and they're they're they're
changing them around and this whole thing, you know, And
this is my way of saying, Travis and Taylor look
(12:23):
great in their bathing suits. Don't be idiots.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I would also say this the number of guys out
there that are really unattractive that feel comfortable demeaning women
online never ceases to astound me. Right, there's only so
many people that are actually good looking. What are the
odds that incredibly good looking people are the ones that
are spending time judging people online.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I think it's relatively low.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
There's that great meme where it's like a guy you know,
sitting at his computer like she's a seven, I'd never
date her, and it's like, you know, he's three hundred
and fifty pounds, like unshaven for weeks. Like that's really
a lot of the people that are making these comments.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Sunday hang with Clay and Bucks.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I gotta tell you, I was a little surprised to
see this, and I brought it up with Carol, and
I didn't think this was a huge news story by
any means, but the whole like Travis Kelcey being body
shamed and Taylor Swift too, I think I just sort
of see some of this down in Miami because there's
such an obsession with physique here and there's so much Honestly,
(13:28):
people are just taking all kinds of stuff. Clay that
ex tweet on that six point eight million views, one
hundred and twenty three thousand likes of my little musing
on Travis Kelcey and Taylor Swift, which you said, I
think is very astute. The Swifties may have caught onto this,
and fortunately I have not offended them.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
You may be the swifties favorite media person now one
hundred and twenty three thousand likes for you defending Travis
Kelcey and his dad bod.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
But I think it that's it. Look, dad Bod defense
is a hill I will die on. I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, good for you.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean, I'm looking at the comments, and I do
think so many people out there, why about the fact
that they're taking things that will probably make them illegal
to play in sports. Right, That's the other thing about
why Travis Kelsey isn't super ripped. He gets tested for
this stuff all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And I've come across people who are delusional. I've come
across people who have told me that they're taking stuff,
and then later on they'll tell me that they aren't
taking stuff, and I'm like, but you already told me
you are, and they're like, no, I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I'm like, Okay, this is getting real deep, real deep
psychological stuff here.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Sundays with Clay and Buck Bad Therapy, Why the Kids
Aren't Growing Up? By Abigail Shreer. I am going to
read this book. Bucket's got his own copy as well.
We get a lot of books, Abigail, who is with
us now, A lot of times. To be frank, I
don't have the time to be able to read them.
I've put this on my list. My wife wants to
(14:59):
re you are absolutely killing it, and so I want
to start with this though, before we get into the book.
You have had a similar experience as me. When American
Playbook came out, it was the number one selling nonfiction
book in America. It did not make the New York
Times list. Your book went to number one, I believe
(15:20):
on Amazon, which is virtually unheard of. It did not
make one of the fifteen best selling books in America.
This is one of the best endorsements of a book
I can give you because to me, it means the
Times does not want your book to get the publicity
and attention. Explain that for listeners out there who I
think a lot of people think the New York Times
(15:40):
just ranks the best selling books. They don't at all.
Why is this significant? And what does it say to
you that they have avoided recognizing how many people are
buying and reading your book.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well, you know, they don't like anybody who kicks the
legs out of their narrative, right. So with the last book,
they were very very unhappy with me because I wrote,
you know, about the epidemic of teenage girls deciding they
were transgender, and I you know, pointed out the risks
and I argued it was a social contagion. And the
book was really successful, and that bothered the New York
(16:13):
Times a lot because eventually they had to admit those risks.
So in this book, you know, bad therapy really just
says that, you know, the the question is why are
these why does this generation think it so unwell? Why
are they awash and diagnosis? Why are they constantly taking
mental health days off of work? Why do they think
(16:37):
that they're why are they all and why don't they
all have a diagnosis? Why are they all on psychmads
or so many of them? And why do they never
say they're shy they have social phobia, and they never
say they're nervous, they say they have anxiety. They never
say they're sad, they say they're depressed and and the
point of the book was really to empower parents to
stop listening to these so called experts who are really
(17:00):
the undermining parental authority, really undermining especially dad's ability to
do what they think is right. It's often the men
who get who have changed the most and gotten the
most undermined by these so called experts. And that's the
last group that The New York Times ever wants to
give any you know, power to Abigail's.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Buck thanks for being with us. To what degree do
you think there's some connection possibly between the fact that
the psychiatric and psychologist profession is, by far, according to
all the data, and I don't think anybody disagrees with this,
the most left wing by political affiliation of any of
the medical specialties.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I mean to the.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Point where now you have some of these medical associations
that are going along with and you wrote the book
about about gender identity disorder, genderis for you whatever, they're
going along with things like men can get pregnant. I mean,
they actually are going along with anti science. And how
much politicization is to blame for this.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Sure so a lot. I mean the group that had
remember these accrediting organizations had nothing to say when kids
were heading into a second year.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Of lock lockout.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
What did they do?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
They showed up in Congress to warrn about police tactics,
climate change, right and systemic racism. They had a lot
to say about that. Now they think there's the solution
to kids' mental health. You know, in the book, I argue,
there are a large part of the problem. And here's
the connection to what you just raised. You know, if
you have intergenerational trauma, if all kids are walking around
(18:38):
with the trauma of their ancestors, not true, by the way,
it's a lot of nonsense. But if they are, then
colonialism and slavery are with us today. There continue to
harm these kids. Now we know it isn't true. It
hasn't been true, and I went into the research to
show that it wasn't true. But you know them Unfortunately
(18:58):
a lot of good parents have been undermined by the
idea that they don't know what's best for their kids'
mental health, and so they've been strong armed once again
into not doing what's right for their kids.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Bad therapy is the book Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up?
And I am already starting to read this a little bit, Abigail,
But I read your excerpts. I think it was in
the Wall Street Journal, which I thought was really interesting,
and I want you to expand upon this because I
see it at the front of the book too. Talk
(19:30):
therapy can induce rumination, trapping kids in cycles of anxiety
and depression.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
This is what some of your research has found.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Social emotional learning handicaps our most vulnerable children in both
public schools in private. The piece that I read that
you excerpted was talking about how as parents were constantly
sort of taught to ask our kids how they feel,
and that that is making kids believe that whatever their
feeling is is their truth, as opposed to, you know,
(20:01):
teaching them that their emotions are going to vary and
that it can't be the guidepost of their life.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I thought it was so fascinating.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Explain what you uncovered about that focusing on feelings and
treating them as legitimate.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Sure, focusing on feelings which we know are in constant
and often even inaccurate guides to whether we have been
hurt or injured, or whether we're in the right Catting
kids to constantly focus on their feelings is actually a
recipe for misery. We know this, the psychological research shows it.
We're just doing the opposite. We're going into schools and
(20:36):
as parents were doing the same thing. We're constantly asking
kids how are they feeling about this? How are they
feeling about that? We're inducing a constant focus on their
negative feelings. Why is it negative? Because of course, if
you ask someone constantly how they're feeling, they're actually going
to produce mostly negative responses. And the reason is in
(20:57):
all of our you know, thousands of wakeful seconds, most
of them are not in a state called happy. They're
in some kind of period of irritation, itch, discomfort, worry,
and getting kids to focus on those things while rather
than going out and doing good. That's the opposite of
(21:18):
what we want to be doing. But the other's another
bad thing when with things like social emotional learning, constantly
asking kids about their negative feelings in school. But what
I want parents to know is it naturally tease up
a criticism of the parents. Why because parents are the
ones whose job it is to keep a child safe.
So if they were terribly traumatized by an incident, the
(21:40):
next question is where was mom.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I think the data you mentioned dads, I think the data.
And I'm curious if you find this that as dads
have become less involved in two parent households, the overall
health of kids has collapsed, mental health in many ways.
And there's this idea, and I bet you've read about
it and studied at Abigail that lots of people, even
(22:06):
on the left, they talk left, but they live right.
That is, they have nuclear families in their own life.
A lot of people wagging their finger at you on
MSNBC and CNN. They are married to a woman or
they're married to a man. They have traditional household structures,
they raise the kids in the two parent household, and
then they lecture anyone who suggests that that would be
(22:29):
a good model, even though they're following it themselves. Where
does fatherhood rank and factor in here in your research?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
So what father is that men are the ones who
have changed the most in terms of parenting in the
last generation. I mean, here's why. All of their instincts
they were told are bad for the kid's mental health.
Telling a kid you'll live, you're gonna be fine, shake
it off or knock it off, that kind of thing.
They were told don't do that. It's bad for their
(22:56):
mental health. Basically that would that is the wrong way
to proceed. And so the kids got no balance. They
got constant empathy, they got constant eliciting of their feelings,
and never a sense that they would be resilient, they
would be fine. And here's the other thing. They weren't
told that their grandparents went through much worse. See your grandparents,
(23:20):
that's the only proof you've got that your genetic material
is resilient. They need to hear what dad and mom
and grandparents went through and great grandparents went through. It's
the only proof they've got that they can get through
it too.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Abigail Schreier, the author Bad Therapy While the Kids aren't
growing up is the book? Recommend you all get a
copy of it now. And just in terms of the
therapy component of this for kids, how much of this
do you think is also the usage of the medicalization
of childhood discontent, which we all go through at different
(23:59):
times right in our knee, at different times we fall
off the jungle gymo. Though now I don't even if
there are jungle gyms anymore, like you can't really the
playgrounds have changed a lot from what they used to be.
But by medicalizing these problems. It means that they can
get at kids and indoctrinate them younger and younger.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
That's right. They get them into the mental health pipeline
and they never leave. They just get more and more medication.
And here's the thing. Sometimes kids are going through a
bad phase. Sometimes they're going to outgrow it. And there's
something else too. When you get in and delete their
normal resources with medication, their normal sadness, you're also capping
the happiness, the highs. You're altering. You may be deleting
(24:38):
a sex drive and a young kid who's just starting puberty,
and you're doing all the things that will make it
harder for them to adjust to and cope with normal life.
And that's what we're seeing, a generation that can't cope Abigail.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
How much does social media play in here in terms
of I talk about this on the show sometimes. One
of the most staggering stats I've seen thirty percent of
teenage girls have thought about killing themselves in the last year.
I mean, that is an unbelievable number. Obviously, that is
feelings triumphing over the logic of their life. Because I
can't imagine that thirty percent of women and teenage girls
(25:14):
are actually living in dire straits. How much of that
is a function of the feelings that they get from
social media, And how should parents, in your mind, contemplate
social media.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Social media is bad, it's hurting this problem, no doubt.
You know, I wrote about the last book, a social
contagion of trans identification that was basically spread largely through
social media. But here's the problem. The sad things they're feeling,
the sad feelings they have, you know, if they feel
lonely and depressed, partially because social media were then remediating
(25:49):
it with mental health, not giving them a better life,
not taking away the phone, not curving social media, but
giving them more and more mental health interventions that aren't working. Diagnosis, medication,
it's not working. It's counterproductive. Why Because it's the life
that's a problem. And the reason we know this is
liberal boys from teenage teenage boys from liberal families have
(26:13):
worse mental health. Sorry, teenage boys from liberal families have
worse mental health than teenage girls from conservative families. Now,
let me tell you the girls are on a lot
more social media, but the difference is in the environment,
the lack of authority from parents, the introduction of mental
health experts into the home at the first indication of
(26:33):
sadness or a problem. All those things, and the constant
surveillance of any activity, never letting these kids have real
independence and trying to do something in the world even
when it's dangerous like or has potential danger like walking
home from school. Those are all things that make a
kid feel capable, and we're not letting him do those things.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
How to go fer Everybody. Why the kids are aren't
growing up?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Bad therapy.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Why the Kids aren't growing up is the book. Abigail,
thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate the time.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Oh thank you. Take care
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