April 28, 2024 • 15 mins
I talked about the Rover SD1 a few weeks ago. That was an unmitigated disaster when it came to production, but between that car and the Rover 800, British Leyland, now Austin Rover had forged a partnership with Honda that would lead to big changes in quality at the British company, and the Rover 800 was the first big partnership between the two companies. So, did it work out better than the SD1?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
I talked about the Rover SD1 a few weeks ago.
That was an unmitigated disaster when it cameto production, but between that car and the
Rover 800, British Leyland, now Austin Roverhad forged a partnership with Honda that would
lead to big changes in quality at the Britishcompany, and the Rover 800 was the first big
(00:24):
partnership between the two companies.
So, did it work out better than the SD1?
Let’s find out.
It was a time of hope, a time of disaster,a time of Triumph, and a time of… whatever
this is.
But one team would work with… another team…to build the car of the future.
(00:47):
A car they would call… the Rover 800…and the Sterling… and the Honda Legend…
and the Acura Legend.
This is… the Rover 800 story.
(01:15):
Rover’s previous big car, the SD1 was beautifullydesigned, but hampered by one production problem
after another.
By 1979 the Rover designers were looking tocreate its successor and pitched a new project
to management – the Rover Bravo.
It was to be an updated SD1, with a saloonvariant and the chassis would be used for
(01:37):
the next Triumph open top sports car and coupé.
It was a wise plan that would minimise developmentcosts but meant the new chassis would be almost
6” shorter than the current Rover SD1 – nota good thing for a spacious luxury car.
But British Leyland had a new manager, MichaelEdwardes, who was charged with getting finances
(01:59):
under control.
He ended Triumph TR7 production, and closedthe Rover-Triumph division, rolling it into
a larger “British Leyland Cars”.
In 1980 this larger division decided to presenta different plan for a large Rover, now codenamed
“LM15”.
In the spirit of cost-saving this was to bebased on the upcoming Montego with a stretched
(02:25):
chassis.
After evaluating the competition at the 1981Frankfurt Motor Show, British Leyland designers
decided the LM15 plan just wouldn’t cutit.
Luxury cars were getting much more sophisticatedboth mechanically and electrically, with a
low drag coefficient.
The LM15 design was just too basic to competewith upcoming competitors’ cars like the
(02:50):
Audi 100, BMW 5-series and Mercedes E-class.
What they needed was a partner to share thedevelopment costs of a brand-new car.
Enter Honda.
British Leyland reached out to them to forma partnership on the new large Rover.
Honda had yet to make a large car, and Rover’sexpertise would help.
(03:13):
They wanted to produce a large expensive carfor the lucrative North American market.
Quotas restricted the number of cars theycould import, so it made sense to sell more
expensive cars with a higher profit margin.
There were also impending EU import quotas,which Honda could get around by producing
their cars at British Leyland UK factories.
(03:36):
By 1982 British Leyland was renamed AustinRover, and the first fruits of the new partnership
was the Triumph Acclaim, a rebadged HondaBallade assembled at the Austin Rover Cowley
plant and the final car to use the Triumphbadge.
Even before the new large Rover / Honda planwas approved, Austin Rover engineers started
(03:59):
work on designing it.
They wanted to show the design direction *they*wanted the car to take, essentially a more
aerodynamic version of the SD1.
But as the luxury car market was moving tosaloons, it wouldn’t be a hatchback.
The project was codenamed “XX” by AustinRover, “HX” by Honda.
(04:20):
By the summer of 1982 a clay mock-up was producedwith a slippery drag coefficient of just 0.27,
a massive improvement over the SD1’s 0.36.
When the Honda and Rover teams first met,Honda were a little taken aback by the progress
that Rover had already made, but this didn’tspoil the start of an excellent working relationship.
(04:46):
The Rover design was adopted to begin workon the chassis, but Honda’s car would have
a different look.
As development continued, the Rover 800 startedto take shape.
However, one area which caused consternationwas the front suspension.
Honda was keen on a low bonnet line and expensivedouble wishbone suspension.
(05:08):
This meant limited suspension travel, meaningride on bumpy roads was compromised.
Austin Rover preferred alternate suspensionand the additional interior space it offered,
but Honda’s system won the day.
As for engines, both teams agreed to use Honda’sV6 in place of the out¬-of-fashion 3.5L V8
(05:30):
from the SD1.
Austin Rover also wanted a 4-cylinder 2.0Lwhich would sell well due to company car legislation,
but Honda weren’t interested.
The O-series engine from the SD1 was chosen,rechristened the M-series.
But in that car it had been underpowered soit needed a boost.
(05:52):
Thankfully silicon chips had allowed electronicengine management to more precisely control
combustion, helping satisfy new emissionslegislation.
Fuel injection and 16v single and double overheadcam provided the necessary power needed in
such a high-end saloon.
Both engines proved a little unrefined tostart with.
(06:15):
They needed high revs to go quickly, and theM-series was also loud which added to the
problem.
It was easy for teams so far away to divergeor have problems, but they were kept on track
and in relative harmony.
For example, Honda had provided incorrectdimensions of their V6 engine to Austin Rover.
(06:35):
This meant adding 9mm to the wheel track.
The change was handled quickly and professionallyby both teams, meaning development could continue
apace.
The car they produced was a better car thaneither company could have made on their own
– a true collaborative effort.
During the design Austin Rover managementresearch concluded a hatchback model was needed,
(07:00):
due to growing demand.
The resulting design was relatively straightforwardand showed how similar the new Rover 800 was
to the old SD1.
The Rover 800 broke cover in an unlikely way,as the CCV coupé concept vehicle.
Even though a coupé wasn’t initially planned,Austin Rover used this concept to sign up
(07:22):
North American dealers to distribute the newRover 800, as the coupé variant was expected
to sell well there.
The Rover 800 wasn’t the first to launch.
The Honda Legend launched nine-months beforethe Rover in October 1985.
Some people in Rover thought Honda’s V6engine 9mm dimension “mistake” gave them
(07:45):
a head start.
What also made a difference was the fact thatHonda launched cars even before production
has started.
UK car manufacturers waited until the dealershad cars in stock before making an announcement.
On July 8, 1986 Austin Rover became simply“Rover” and just two days later the Rover
(08:06):
800 was given an extravagant launch.
3500 press and dealers were flown to Switzerlandto drive the new car, and 60 MPs and hundreds
of journalists drove the car in the Northumberlandcountryside.
At the launch Rover was keen to show thatthis was not just a new car, but a new company.
(08:27):
Gone were the bad old days of industrial action,and with Honda’s help Rover were moving
to a bright new future.
They were fighting off criticism that salesof Rover cars were nose diving, in particular
the new Austin Maestro and Montego.
But it’s true to say that the relationshipbetween management and workers had greatly
(08:48):
improved in Rover, and this was paying dividends.
Reaction to the new car was mixed.
The interior was praised, but the suspensionand engines were called out for criticism.
If you’ve seen my Rover SD1 video you’llknow that the SD1 was hobbled by short supply
at launch, problems ramping up supply andpoor build quality.
(09:12):
Well Rover chairman Harold Musgrove shouldhave taken note during this time because exactly
the same issues cropped up for the Rover 800.
Was this just another case of Rover shootingthemselves in the foot again?
Harold Musgrove wasn’t to be chairman formuch longer.
Despite these problems, the Rover 800 waspopular in the UK and started to sell well.
(09:37):
The same couldn’t be said for North Americawhere the Rover 800 was badged as the Sterling.
It had the disadvantage of being an also-ranto Honda’s already released Acura Legend,
and Honda also had the much sought-after coupémodel.
Sales started well for the Sterling but thosequality issues appeared in the JD Power survey
(10:00):
(for example, the leather seats were turninggreen in sunlight), and sales tanked.
Rover exited the market in 1991, again echoingthe SD1, never to return.
To add insult to injury, the Acura won MotorTrend’s Import Car of the Year in 1987.
It went on to great success and is still soldtoday as the Acura RLX.
(10:26):
The Rover hatchback, dubbed the “Fastback”,debuted in 1988 along with a new, more refined
Honda V6 engine.
The original plan was to sell the Fastbackas the Rover 600 and make it a cheaper model,
but market research showed the public valuedthe hatchback just as much if not more than
a saloon, so it was made a Rover 800 modelwith a price to match.
(10:51):
By 1989 Rover started a facelift project,codenamed R17.
The designers produced striking drawings showingthe way they wanted to go, but the funds weren’t
there for a complete reskin.
The bean counters announced that any new designneeded to use the existing doors to save on
the cost of new door moulds.
(11:13):
It was pointed out that the door moulds wereat the end of their life and new ones would
have to be produced anyway, but this did littleto change management’s mind.
The most obvious change was the addition ofchrome and a new front grille to move the
car upmarket.
The grille was added after positive reactionto it from a Rover 600 market study and this
(11:36):
had the advantage of producing a family lookfor both cars.
Other subtle cues were added as a nod to Rover’svenerable P5.
The car’s bulk was increased to give itmore presence on the road.
The interior stayed the same, although withmore walnut trim it did look like someone
had thrown a tree at the dashboard!
The M-series 2.0L engine was worked over againto give it more torque at low revs, now rebadged
(12:02):
as the T-series.
This turned an unrefined engine into somethingmore befitting a luxury car, and with a turbo
it made the 800 a seriously fast car witha 0-60 time of just 7.3 seconds.
The new engine started to make the Honda V6look superfluous.
(12:23):
The new model arrived in November 1991 andwas well received by the press.
A diesel followed the following year.
But the 800 had one more trick up its sleeve.
The long-promised coupé model finally arrivedin March 1992, being a top of the range prestige
model.
(12:43):
However, it was too late for the North Americanmarket where Rover had exited the year earlier.
The updated 800 sold well, but not spectacularlythroughout the rest of its life, ending production
in 1998 after selling over 317,000 cars.
In 1994 BMW purchased Rover, and they designeda replacement –- the Rover 75 – which
(13:07):
would go on sale in 1999.
Rover did an amazing job giving the Rover800 a thirteen-year lifespan with relatively
few updates, and partnering with Honda wasthe right move to get the funds to develop
a car that could compete with tough competition.
Honda and Rover needed each other in the 1980s.
(13:29):
Honda wanted to know how to make luxury carsto compete with the German big three, and
also the moves Toyota, Nissan and Mazda weremaking with their own luxury brands.
Rover needed someone to help them make a newlarge car as they had no money, and along
the way they found a company that could helpthem with their quality problems.
That ended up being the big benefit Rovergot from the partnership, well, that and being
(13:54):
able to use Honda platforms as the startingpoint for their new cars.
Honda got less from the deal.
Yes, Rover made a nice interior, but the Sterling’sinterior was no match for the Acura Legend
in the USA.
Maybe that’s why Honda didn’t step upto take control of Rover in the mid-90s, leaving
it to BMW to swoop in.
(14:16):
But the Rover 800 marked a step change forRover certainly in terms of quality, and did
a lot to regain buyer confidence.
There were certainly a lot on British roadsin the late 80s and 90s, usually company cars
as the Rover brand still held some prestige.
As I said before, Rover knew how to do interiors,and it had reliable Honda mechanicals.
(14:38):
It could have been the start for Rover’srecovery, but as we’ll see next week with
the Rover 75, it was a false dawn.
If you like this podcast then please let peopleknow, and leave me a rating and review.
If you want to see these podcasts as a videothen take a look at my YouTube channel.
Thanks for listening and I’ll see you inthe next episode!
I talked about the Rover SD1 a few weeks ago.
That was an unmitigated disaster when it cameto production, but between that car and the
Rover 800, British Leyland, now Austin Roverhad forged a partnership with Honda that would
lead to big changes in quality at the Britishcompany, and the Rover 800 was the first big
(00:24):
partnership between the two companies.
So, did it work out better than the SD1?
Let’s find out.
It was a time of hope, a time of disaster,a time of Triumph, and a time of… whatever
this is.
But one team would work with… another team…to build the car of the future.
(00:47):
A car they would call… the Rover 800…and the Sterling… and the Honda Legend…
and the Acura Legend.
This is… the Rover 800 story.
(01:15):
Rover’s previous big car, the SD1 was beautifullydesigned, but hampered by one production problem
after another.
By 1979 the Rover designers were looking tocreate its successor and pitched a new project
to management – the Rover Bravo.
It was to be an updated SD1, with a saloonvariant and the chassis would be used for
(01:37):
the next Triumph open top sports car and coupé.
It was a wise plan that would minimise developmentcosts but meant the new chassis would be almost
6” shorter than the current Rover SD1 – nota good thing for a spacious luxury car.
But British Leyland had a new manager, MichaelEdwardes, who was charged with getting finances
(01:59):
under control.
He ended Triumph TR7 production, and closedthe Rover-Triumph division, rolling it into
a larger “British Leyland Cars”.
In 1980 this larger division decided to presenta different plan for a large Rover, now codenamed
“LM15”.
In the spirit of cost-saving this was to bebased on the upcoming Montego with a stretched
(02:25):
chassis.
After evaluating the competition at the 1981Frankfurt Motor Show, British Leyland designers
decided the LM15 plan just wouldn’t cutit.
Luxury cars were getting much more sophisticatedboth mechanically and electrically, with a
low drag coefficient.
The LM15 design was just too basic to competewith upcoming competitors’ cars like the
(02:50):
Audi 100, BMW 5-series and Mercedes E-class.
What they needed was a partner to share thedevelopment costs of a brand-new car.
Enter Honda.
British Leyland reached out to them to forma partnership on the new large Rover.
Honda had yet to make a large car, and Rover’sexpertise would help.
(03:13):
They wanted to produce a large expensive carfor the lucrative North American market.
Quotas restricted the number of cars theycould import, so it made sense to sell more
expensive cars with a higher profit margin.
There were also impending EU import quotas,which Honda could get around by producing
their cars at British Leyland UK factories.
(03:36):
By 1982 British Leyland was renamed AustinRover, and the first fruits of the new partnership
was the Triumph Acclaim, a rebadged HondaBallade assembled at the Austin Rover Cowley
plant and the final car to use the Triumphbadge.
Even before the new large Rover / Honda planwas approved, Austin Rover engineers started
(03:59):
work on designing it.
They wanted to show the design direction *they*wanted the car to take, essentially a more
aerodynamic version of the SD1.
But as the luxury car market was moving tosaloons, it wouldn’t be a hatchback.
The project was codenamed “XX” by AustinRover, “HX” by Honda.
(04:20):
By the summer of 1982 a clay mock-up was producedwith a slippery drag coefficient of just 0.27,
a massive improvement over the SD1’s 0.36.
When the Honda and Rover teams first met,Honda were a little taken aback by the progress
that Rover had already made, but this didn’tspoil the start of an excellent working relationship.
(04:46):
The Rover design was adopted to begin workon the chassis, but Honda’s car would have
a different look.
As development continued, the Rover 800 startedto take shape.
However, one area which caused consternationwas the front suspension.
Honda was keen on a low bonnet line and expensivedouble wishbone suspension.
(05:08):
This meant limited suspension travel, meaningride on bumpy roads was compromised.
Austin Rover preferred alternate suspensionand the additional interior space it offered,
but Honda’s system won the day.
As for engines, both teams agreed to use Honda’sV6 in place of the out¬-of-fashion 3.5L V8
(05:30):
from the SD1.
Austin Rover also wanted a 4-cylinder 2.0Lwhich would sell well due to company car legislation,
but Honda weren’t interested.
The O-series engine from the SD1 was chosen,rechristened the M-series.
But in that car it had been underpowered soit needed a boost.
(05:52):
Thankfully silicon chips had allowed electronicengine management to more precisely control
combustion, helping satisfy new emissionslegislation.
Fuel injection and 16v single and double overheadcam provided the necessary power needed in
such a high-end saloon.
Both engines proved a little unrefined tostart with.
(06:15):
They needed high revs to go quickly, and theM-series was also loud which added to the
problem.
It was easy for teams so far away to divergeor have problems, but they were kept on track
and in relative harmony.
For example, Honda had provided incorrectdimensions of their V6 engine to Austin Rover.
(06:35):
This meant adding 9mm to the wheel track.
The change was handled quickly and professionallyby both teams, meaning development could continue
apace.
The car they produced was a better car thaneither company could have made on their own
– a true collaborative effort.
During the design Austin Rover managementresearch concluded a hatchback model was needed,
(07:00):
due to growing demand.
The resulting design was relatively straightforwardand showed how similar the new Rover 800 was
to the old SD1.
The Rover 800 broke cover in an unlikely way,as the CCV coupé concept vehicle.
Even though a coupé wasn’t initially planned,Austin Rover used this concept to sign up
(07:22):
North American dealers to distribute the newRover 800, as the coupé variant was expected
to sell well there.
The Rover 800 wasn’t the first to launch.
The Honda Legend launched nine-months beforethe Rover in October 1985.
Some people in Rover thought Honda’s V6engine 9mm dimension “mistake” gave them
(07:45):
a head start.
What also made a difference was the fact thatHonda launched cars even before production
has started.
UK car manufacturers waited until the dealershad cars in stock before making an announcement.
On July 8, 1986 Austin Rover became simply“Rover” and just two days later the Rover
(08:06):
800 was given an extravagant launch.
3500 press and dealers were flown to Switzerlandto drive the new car, and 60 MPs and hundreds
of journalists drove the car in the Northumberlandcountryside.
At the launch Rover was keen to show thatthis was not just a new car, but a new company.
(08:27):
Gone were the bad old days of industrial action,and with Honda’s help Rover were moving
to a bright new future.
They were fighting off criticism that salesof Rover cars were nose diving, in particular
the new Austin Maestro and Montego.
But it’s true to say that the relationshipbetween management and workers had greatly
(08:48):
improved in Rover, and this was paying dividends.
Reaction to the new car was mixed.
The interior was praised, but the suspensionand engines were called out for criticism.
If you’ve seen my Rover SD1 video you’llknow that the SD1 was hobbled by short supply
at launch, problems ramping up supply andpoor build quality.
(09:12):
Well Rover chairman Harold Musgrove shouldhave taken note during this time because exactly
the same issues cropped up for the Rover 800.
Was this just another case of Rover shootingthemselves in the foot again?
Harold Musgrove wasn’t to be chairman formuch longer.
Despite these problems, the Rover 800 waspopular in the UK and started to sell well.
(09:37):
The same couldn’t be said for North Americawhere the Rover 800 was badged as the Sterling.
It had the disadvantage of being an also-ranto Honda’s already released Acura Legend,
and Honda also had the much sought-after coupémodel.
Sales started well for the Sterling but thosequality issues appeared in the JD Power survey
(10:00):
(for example, the leather seats were turninggreen in sunlight), and sales tanked.
Rover exited the market in 1991, again echoingthe SD1, never to return.
To add insult to injury, the Acura won MotorTrend’s Import Car of the Year in 1987.
It went on to great success and is still soldtoday as the Acura RLX.
(10:26):
The Rover hatchback, dubbed the “Fastback”,debuted in 1988 along with a new, more refined
Honda V6 engine.
The original plan was to sell the Fastbackas the Rover 600 and make it a cheaper model,
but market research showed the public valuedthe hatchback just as much if not more than
a saloon, so it was made a Rover 800 modelwith a price to match.
(10:51):
By 1989 Rover started a facelift project,codenamed R17.
The designers produced striking drawings showingthe way they wanted to go, but the funds weren’t
there for a complete reskin.
The bean counters announced that any new designneeded to use the existing doors to save on
the cost of new door moulds.
(11:13):
It was pointed out that the door moulds wereat the end of their life and new ones would
have to be produced anyway, but this did littleto change management’s mind.
The most obvious change was the addition ofchrome and a new front grille to move the
car upmarket.
The grille was added after positive reactionto it from a Rover 600 market study and this
(11:36):
had the advantage of producing a family lookfor both cars.
Other subtle cues were added as a nod to Rover’svenerable P5.
The car’s bulk was increased to give itmore presence on the road.
The interior stayed the same, although withmore walnut trim it did look like someone
had thrown a tree at the dashboard!
The M-series 2.0L engine was worked over againto give it more torque at low revs, now rebadged
(12:02):
as the T-series.
This turned an unrefined engine into somethingmore befitting a luxury car, and with a turbo
it made the 800 a seriously fast car witha 0-60 time of just 7.3 seconds.
The new engine started to make the Honda V6look superfluous.
(12:23):
The new model arrived in November 1991 andwas well received by the press.
A diesel followed the following year.
But the 800 had one more trick up its sleeve.
The long-promised coupé model finally arrivedin March 1992, being a top of the range prestige
model.
(12:43):
However, it was too late for the North Americanmarket where Rover had exited the year earlier.
The updated 800 sold well, but not spectacularlythroughout the rest of its life, ending production
in 1998 after selling over 317,000 cars.
In 1994 BMW purchased Rover, and they designeda replacement –- the Rover 75 – which
(13:07):
would go on sale in 1999.
Rover did an amazing job giving the Rover800 a thirteen-year lifespan with relatively
few updates, and partnering with Honda wasthe right move to get the funds to develop
a car that could compete with tough competition.
Honda and Rover needed each other in the 1980s.
(13:29):
Honda wanted to know how to make luxury carsto compete with the German big three, and
also the moves Toyota, Nissan and Mazda weremaking with their own luxury brands.
Rover needed someone to help them make a newlarge car as they had no money, and along
the way they found a company that could helpthem with their quality problems.
That ended up being the big benefit Rovergot from the partnership, well, that and being
(13:54):
able to use Honda platforms as the startingpoint for their new cars.
Honda got less from the deal.
Yes, Rover made a nice interior, but the Sterling’sinterior was no match for the Acura Legend
in the USA.
Maybe that’s why Honda didn’t step upto take control of Rover in the mid-90s, leaving
it to BMW to swoop in.
(14:16):
But the Rover 800 marked a step change forRover certainly in terms of quality, and did
a lot to regain buyer confidence.
There were certainly a lot on British roadsin the late 80s and 90s, usually company cars
as the Rover brand still held some prestige.
As I said before, Rover knew how to do interiors,and it had reliable Honda mechanicals.
(14:38):
It could have been the start for Rover’srecovery, but as we’ll see next week with
the Rover 75, it was a false dawn.
If you like this podcast then please let peopleknow, and leave me a rating and review.
If you want to see these podcasts as a videothen take a look at my YouTube channel.
Thanks for listening and I’ll see you inthe next episode!
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