April 23, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode, Kyla chats to Bianca Skilbeck, founder of Freedom From Food, which is based in Melbourne, Australia.
Bianca imparts invaluable insights into the misunderstood world of clinical hypnotherapy, explaining how it doesn't take over anyone's mind but guides people into a more focused state to be able to facilitate change.
Bianca introduces us to the intriguing concept of 'gut-directed hypnotherapy,' an innovative method of mitigating functional gut symptoms. She shares how this groundbreaking technique rewires the mind-body connection, helping individuals gain control over stress-related physical responses.
We delve into how gut-directed hypnotherapy works and how it can be customised to address specific gut health-related issues. With promising results witnessed in a significant percentage of patients, this flexible approach offers a potent alternative to medications and diet restrictions.
Further expanding on the mind-body connection, Kyla and Bianca discuss how our bodies respond considerably to our mental health, asserting the need to manage both physical and psychological aspects for optimal wellness. Learn from Bianca's decade-long experience as a hypnotherapist specialising in treating disordered eating and gut health issues using gut-directed hypnotherapy.
Join us in this engrossing conversation as we unravel an unconventional approach to managing digestive health that leverages the mind-body connection.
You can make contact with Bianca Skilbeck here https://www.freedomfromfood.com.au/
Kyla Holley is the Director of the Australian Centre for Eating Behaviour www.acfeb.com
Take our 6 week Change your Relationship with Food online course
https://acfeb.thrivecart.com/change-your-relationship-with-food/
Need the Change your Relationship with Food journal and workbook?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:14):
The podcast hosted by me, Kyla Holley. With many years experience as an eating
disorder and bariatric therapist, I know exactly what it takes to help you break
free from your diet history and develop a more healthy relationship with food.
Music.
Please follow this podcast to make sure you don't miss a thing.
Today we have a guest and her name is Bianca Skilbeck.
(00:36):
She works down in Melbourne in Victoria and she owns a business called Freedom From Food.
So So she's very much in our demographic of the way we like to talk about food
and the things we like to do.
She was actually originally trained as a clinical hypnotherapist and counsellor,
but she's currently in the process of doing her master's in clinical psychology.
(00:58):
So almost there to be a psychologist down in Victoria as well through Victoria University.
So the first thing I'd like to clear up, clinical hypnotherapy,
I want to distinguish what that is from what people might have seen on stage
or television as far as a hypnotist.
And they think that going to see a clinical hypnotherapist, you'll somehow take over their brain.
(01:23):
So explain why that's not the case. Hopefully it's not the case.
Okay. Yes, good question. And hi, Kyla, thank you for the invite onto this podcast.
It's great to chat today.
So yeah, good question about the hypnotherapy side of things.
A lot of people have that similar sort of question because a lot of people,
of course, know of stage hypnosis and all of the funny and wonderful things
(01:45):
that can happen on there.
And then they think that that might be similar to what happens in the therapy room.
But really, it's a totally different process, really. It's a totally different
mechanism that's being used.
So clinical hypnotherapy, it's really, if you just think of hypnotherapy as
a different modality of therapy,
hypnotherapy it is in no way a way
that you know we gain control over anyone's brain
(02:08):
or anything like that what happens in a session of hypnotherapy is
essentially there will be some counseling component of course first so we get
to get to know the person and get to know what they're wanting to work on and
talk through that like we would you know with any other kind kind of issue and
the hypnosis gets used at some point in the session just as another way of doing
therapy so So often there will be a case of,
(02:29):
you know, somebody might close their eyes. It might be a guided visualization.
It might be a more collaborative kind of process where we get them to sort of
maybe talk back and go into their imagination, describe things.
But it's certainly not a case of being asleep or unconscious.
There's no stage antics, anything like that. It's just a different way of doing therapy.
And yeah, when it works well, hopefully a way of getting to some of the deeper
(02:52):
issues that people can experience that helps people to, yeah,
often get some insights that they might not otherwise get when they're just
doing, you know, sort of straight-up talk therapy.
Okay. So do some people come into it believing that they can't
hypnotize because maybe they've got that impression from the sort of stage and
TV shows where there's that impression that you go under somehow for something to work.
(03:16):
Yeah, sometimes people do have that concern. I mean, I must say less and less
these days, I think I get those questions.
I think that hypnotherapy is starting to become something that's a bit more
mainstream and most people might, you know, sort of know somebody that's done
it before or they might know a little bit about it anyway.
So some of those misconceptions I think are getting less and less and I do get
(03:36):
less of those questions.
But yeah, certainly sometimes people come or they even just inquire and they
say, I don't think I can be hypnotized.
And yeah, really, I just explain the process of being hypnotized as being not
that much different to when you're in a state of flow.
So what I mean by that is, let's say you've got a favorite sport that you play
(03:57):
or a musical instrument, or you're really into reading your favorite book at
the moment, and you get into a state of flow where you're very focused,
time sort of distorts, and you're not really focused on the time anymore,
and you're just very in the zone.
That is a hypnotic state in and of itself. And that's kind of what we're using
in the clinical hypnosis space, where we're just using a person's ability to
(04:20):
become very focused and very in the zone with what they're doing.
And in that way, it kind of bypasses some of those conscious processes that might get in the way.
When people are sort of thinking and talking about their problem,
they might be coming at it from a very, you know, sort of top-down cognitive kind of place.
But, you know, when they're in a more hypnotic sort of space,
you know, it just facilitates that
(04:42):
ability to go a little bit deeper when they're in the zone and focused.
And is that why it's such a kind of good vehicle for change?
Because a lot of our behaviours are in our subconscious, they're automatic,
and we don't do them on that sort of cognitive level.
Absolutely. Yes. Yep. So, I mean, you know, I think it's important to say that
I think that a lot of cognitive therapies are really important and I definitely
(05:03):
incorporate those into my work as well.
But yeah, certainly using something like hypnosis as part of the sessions,
I find it's really helpful for a lot of people because it helps them go a bit
beyond that cognitive level and helps them to go even into more sort of somatic
levels of their experiencing.
So when they, you know, start to notice particular feelings in their body and
(05:25):
they can start to join the dots between how they feel and maybe things that
have happened in the past or maybe even things that they're currently doing,
it just allows for a bit more insight.
Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. And it's funny that you should say that because I
was just going to lead you there. It's interesting.
I think when we start out in our professional lives, we come at it from a very
(05:45):
logical kind of cognitive basis.
And the early stuff we learn is certainly in that area.
And then the more, I suppose, we relax into our work, the more we explore these
other areas like the subconscious and like the somatic work,
which I'm learning more and more about. And it's amazing how,
The more you learn, the more it connects into all the other things that you
(06:09):
do. And it helps us as clinicians make sense of it all.
And hopefully it's just how we kind of interpret that and how we manage to explain
to the people that come to see us how it all connects together.
Absolutely. You know, I've been doing this work for just over 10 years now.
And I find that who I was as a therapist, you know, in my first year versus
(06:30):
third versus fifth versus now. and I'm sure into the future as well.
It just keeps evolving and changing.
There's so much to learn in this space, so much to integrate.
It's work that never gets boring, which is why I love it. Yeah, me too.
I figured out years ago, I think, that I'm intelligent, but I've got a very short attention span.
(06:52):
And I was quite happy to find that out about myself.
But what it means is that I need that constant learning.
I need that constant stimulation. formulation, I don't thrive well in circumstances
where I kind of go, oh yeah, I know that now.
And there's nothing routine, I think, about therapy.
Like when we go into therapy thinking that it's going to be a particular kind of structure,
(07:15):
a particular kind of predictable formulaic thing, you know, that's when we will
get bored with it, you know, but when we can actually see the person in front
of us and how unique they are and respond to their needs in the moment in a
very attuned kind of way.
And I think that happens through some of this more, you know,
somatic subconscious kind of work, then we never get bored.
Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know what sort of people that come to see us think,
(07:39):
but I know sometimes I go in to a session with a bit of a plan.
You know, I kind of go, I don't want to look an idiot here. I'm going to have
a little bit of a plan of what to do with this person.
And then sometimes your plan completely flies out the window because they will
walk in with something that's happened, something new, some direction they want to take.
And we end up as clinicians having to, you know,
(08:03):
really kind of ad lib our way through a lot of sessions because suddenly the
little plan we have is thrown out the window and we've got to think as we go
how we're going to respond to that.
And I don't think people realize that when they come to see us.
Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what people might think,
actually. It'd be interesting feedback to know.
But yeah, it's certainly, you know, I think in order to be an effective therapist,
(08:26):
yeah, you sort of, you really have to toe that line between having a structure
to what you're doing, but then also being really flexible, you know,
as to what actually, you know, presents in the moment.
Now, you mentioned something to me in an email a little while ago,
gut-directed hypnotherapy.
And I'll be totally honest, I have no clue what that is.
So can you explain a bit more? Because it sounds like it's something you're
(08:49):
going to explain it and I'm going to go, oh my God, that links more things together.
So tell me what it is and how it works. Of course. So look, hypnotherapy can
be used as a modality in and of itself.
Clinical hypnotherapy can be used for just about anything really.
Lots of people know of hypnotherapy for things like quit smoking or working
on fears and phobias, anxiety, that sort of thing.
(09:10):
But one of the growing areas that hypnotherapy is actually most commonly being
used these days is in the gut space.
So whenever anybody is experiencing any functional gut symptoms,
and by functional gut symptoms, I mean things that aren't necessarily connected to any pathology.
So we've got things like Crohn's disease, irritable bowel disease.
(09:31):
Ulcerative colitis. Those things have an actual pathology.
They've got biomarkers that can be found that indicate disease within the body.
We're not necessarily talking about that category of people,
although they may still benefit.
But we're talking about people who experience functional gut symptoms.
So things like most people have heard of IBS, irritable bowel syndrome,
where they might experience an assortment of gut symptoms ranging from diarrhea,
(09:56):
constipation, bloating, excess gas, pain, all of that sort of thing.
And there's not necessarily any reason why this is happening.
They get all the scans done, they get the gastroscopy, the endoscopy,
the colonoscopy, all of these things.
There's nothing to be found, but nonetheless, they're still having the symptoms.
And this is the category of people who are a really good target for something
(10:21):
like gut-directed hypnotherapy because essentially we're using hypnotherapy
to kind of, for lack of a better way to say it, rewire that mind-body connection.
Often there can be something that's kind of gone amiss, whether it's a physical
stress that's even happened.
Sometimes people can have maybe like a food poisoning or an illness or something
and it sort of kicks off a bunch of these symptoms that It's sort of just become
(10:43):
a bit of a pattern for the body. Or maybe it's a stress response.
You know, maybe somebody experiences depression.
A lot of anxiety and stress, and that started to affect how they're digestively functioning.
And then, of course, some people experience, as you and I both know,
things in the realms of eating disorders or disordered eating,
and of course, that interrupts gut function as well.
(11:05):
So all of these types of people can benefit from something like gut-directed
hypnotherapy, which is essentially a hypnotherapy technique that is used to
rewire some of that mind-body body functioning and help the digestion just happen more effectively.
So is this sort of directly connected to the sort of vagal nerve somatic work?
Because I've studied a lot of that in its connection with trauma and how it
(11:29):
affects the parasympathetic nervous system.
And again, it's one of those things, like I was saying earlier,
the more I learn, the more these pennies drop where you go, oh,
that's connected to that.
You know and it's it's so interesting how
we get these physical effects that we're
dealing with which we have no knowledge that they're
actually kind of heavily influenced by things like
(11:51):
past traumas and how we hold that in our nervous system yeah yeah absolutely
I mean yeah I think I think you're onto something there and I think all of this
stuff is is connected to some degree I think and especially like in western
science we've very much you know come to conceptualize the brain and the body
as like different things or the mind and the body as different things.
But, you know, more and more we can see through, you know, a lot of somatic
(12:14):
therapies and vagal nerve knowledge, all that sort of stuff,
you know, that the mind and the body are connected and they really influence
each other in a bi-directional kind of way.
And our bodies are very influenced by our thought processes and,
you know, stress and all of that sort of thing.
So yeah, essentially we're getting the mind and the body just back on the same
page again and helping a person with their digestion through that way.
(12:38):
But how does the hypnotherapy, I mean, you say rewiring, so how do you direct it towards the gut?
Because you said it was gut-directed, but how do you do that?
Yeah, so rewiring is probably, it's probably not quite the right word,
but I think it's just a word that makes sense to a lot of people.
But essentially in a session of gut-directed hypnotherapy, and normally it will
be like a program of sessions that people do, but there will be a lot of direct
(13:01):
suggestion and suggestion for particular kinds of visualizations about how the gut functions.
And so we're essentially trying to relax the nervous system and give a lot of
direct suggestion about how the gut can function in a much more effective and
comfortable kind of way.
And it's directed in the sense that each session that we do with somebody is
specific to what they're experiencing because everybody experiences different kinds of symptoms.
(13:26):
So we make it a very tailored sort of process to each individual and make sure
that we're targeting their specific symptoms and using, you know,
visuals and metaphors and things that are going to resonate with them.
And so each session that we do, and usually people will do somewhere between
sort of four to six sessions or something in order to, you know,
quote unquote treat, you know, something something like IBS.
(13:47):
Each session will be about 20 minutes long. We'll do that visualization.
Very low pressure on the part of the person receiving the gut-directed hypnotherapy.
All they need to do is just sit back, relax, close their eyes,
just kind of get into it, use their imagination.
They get a recording after that, and we get the person to listen to the recording
essentially most days in between sessions.
(14:08):
So it's a process that might take, you know, between sort of four to six weeks,
but very, very effective.
So it's one of the most well-studied uses of hypnotherapy at this point.
There's heaps out there in terms of trials and things that have been replicated.
And usually in the realms of about 70% to 80% of people notice a significant
decrease in their symptoms.
(14:29):
So it's a really good tool for a lot of people who might otherwise be considering
or have already tried a lot of
medications or procedures, procedures or especially dietary restriction.
You know, that's often one of the things that people can immediately go to when
they're starting to, you know, experience symptoms of IBS.
(14:49):
They might start cutting out, you know, entire food groups and all of that sort of thing.
And it's, you know, obviously that's, you know, in the space of disordered eating,
I mean, that's contraindicated to begin with.
But, you know, if anyone can not have to cut out entire food groups,
then that is also a very preferable thing as well isn't it you know if people
can actually heal some of their symptoms with something like hypnotherapy and
(15:13):
not have to change their diet at all then that's very preferable so is this
something that once you've completed your masters are you gonna
continue in this sort of speciality that you've had over the last 10 years?
Yeah, it's funny. People ask me that and my answer is absolutely because why
would I stop doing something that works?
(15:33):
Sometimes we discover something along the way when we study that,
you know, this little avenue which we go, oh, that's really interesting.
Perhaps I should branch into that.
And I just wondered if you'd had a little discovery that was going to tempt
you away from doing this sort of work, that's all.
Yeah, no, look, probably the discovery has been more of the gut-directed side
(15:54):
of things because I've been working as a hypnotherapist for 10 years now and
working with disordered eating for a long time and all of that sort of thing.
But it's only in the last couple of years that I've started to work a lot more
with the gut side of stuff.
And that's really useful for a lot of my clients that have experienced disordered eating as well.
And yeah, just in the last couple of years, started to read a lot more of the
(16:14):
research in that space and started to really see how effective it is.
And so combining that has been just like such a good tool, you know,
to use for a lot of my clients as well.
So yeah, by the end of next year, I will have finished my master's,
you know, if all is going well.
And certainly my title will change on paper, but I think I'll be essentially
(16:35):
doing much of the same work, you know, what I know already works.
Fantastic. Oh, I'm glad we're not losing you to something else along the way. No, I'm still here.
Excellent. Excellent. So your business is Freedom From Food.
So just tell me about the sort of people that come to you.
What sort of cross-section of people do you get? So, I mean,
(16:57):
my business is open to all demographics of people, all ages, all genders.
I tend to see a lot of, I suppose, young adults,
people in their sort of 20s, 30s, maybe even and 40s that have had maybe a long
history of dieting, maybe they've had an eating disorder, whether or not it
(17:17):
was diagnosed at any point,
that's not important either way, the labels of things.
Although, of course, I want to know the history of that. But yeah,
I tend to see a lot of young people who are really deciding that it's time for
them now to heal their relationship with food.
And maybe they've already done a lot of work on themselves to some degree and
(17:38):
they've sort of, you know, placard or gotten to a certain point or maybe,
you know, this is the first thing that they've tried. Sometimes that also happens too.
But yeah, that tends to be the kinds of people that I'm seeing.
Well, I know I've certainly had the confidence to send a few people your way
over the years. I appreciate that.
You're my go-to in Melbourne. Wonderful.
You did some, I mean, how many years ago was it that you did originally the
(18:03):
eating disorder course with me? It must have been...
I'm going to say maybe about eight years ago, something like that.
Yeah, I'm trying to think back. It would have been eight or ten years ago.
Yeah, even ten. Yeah, I'm not sure. It was certainly in my earlier career days. Yeah.
So I don't know if you did realize at the time, that was actually the first
ever eating disorder course that I hosted down in Melbourne.
(18:27):
The first ever one. I don't know if I did realize that, but it's funny,
isn't it? I remember when I had my first client thinking to myself,
they don't know that they're your first client. Just like, fake it till you make it.
Absolutely. I just remember going down to Melbourne and going,
I'm going to give this a shot.
(18:47):
And if it's a disaster, I'll just bury myself somewhere and nobody will ever
know that I ever did this.
Luckily, you're a natural. I don't know about that. I had to discover an awful
lot, but Bianca and I spent a whole week together down in Melbourne,
just with me talking about eating disorders and getting the class to do all sorts of things.
(19:07):
It was a fairly big class. I think it was about 18 people.
So for a first attempt, it was a bit of a shocker for me to have to talk for
basically five days to all these people.
But after that, it went from strength to strength and it was only really,
things started to change around COVID time when we could no longer do that face-to-face stuff.
So the people doing the course now are doing it online rather than face-to-face.
(19:32):
And it's essentially still the same. Nothing much has changed over those years.
But it was just interesting that I'm still in contact with
A few people from that first ever course, they've sort of stuck with me.
Yeah, isn't that funny? And I've got really fond memories of,
yeah, of that week of, you know, meeting a few people who I still talk to as well.
And, you know, it's just a really enjoyable training, like really,
(19:54):
really thorough, really comprehensive, really interesting and engaging.
And yeah, I mean, I mean it when I say it, you're a natural as a teacher,
Kyla. And yeah, so it was enjoyable.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Now, look, if you want to get in touch with
Bianca, if you are down in Melbourne, or do you do telehealth as well?
(20:14):
I do. Yeah, yeah. So basically.
Probably half the clients that I have I've never met in person.
Right. Not necessarily in Melbourne, not even necessarily in Australia sometimes.
But, yeah, so telehealth is also completely fine. And we can do hypnotherapy
on telehealth as well. Sometimes that's a question that people have.
But yeah, as long as you've got a good internet connection and a quiet place
(20:35):
to be able to have your session, that's all you need.
Fantastic. So literally, you could be anywhere and you could connect with Bianca.
So don't worry about the Melbourne part. You could be anywhere.
What I will do is put a link to your business in the episode notes for this
episode so people can get in contact with you directly if what you've said today
(20:56):
has any interest for them.
So hopefully, Hopefully, please be prepared to do that. And I'd like to thank
Bianca so much for joining me today. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
No problem at all. It's been my pleasure.
Thank you so much for your company today. I would also love it if you could follow this podcast.
It really does mean a lot to me. also we have
(21:19):
a six-week online change your relationship with food
course that you can take just visit www.acfeb.com and click on the ACFEB and
me courses link there's also a journal and a workbook available on Amazon and
you'll find that link in our bio I really hope you can join me again next week.
(21:41):
Music.
Music.
(00:14):
The podcast hosted by me, Kyla Holley. With many years experience as an eating
disorder and bariatric therapist, I know exactly what it takes to help you break
free from your diet history and develop a more healthy relationship with food.
Music.
Please follow this podcast to make sure you don't miss a thing.
Today we have a guest and her name is Bianca Skilbeck.
(00:36):
She works down in Melbourne in Victoria and she owns a business called Freedom From Food.
So So she's very much in our demographic of the way we like to talk about food
and the things we like to do.
She was actually originally trained as a clinical hypnotherapist and counsellor,
but she's currently in the process of doing her master's in clinical psychology.
(00:58):
So almost there to be a psychologist down in Victoria as well through Victoria University.
So the first thing I'd like to clear up, clinical hypnotherapy,
I want to distinguish what that is from what people might have seen on stage
or television as far as a hypnotist.
And they think that going to see a clinical hypnotherapist, you'll somehow take over their brain.
(01:23):
So explain why that's not the case. Hopefully it's not the case.
Okay. Yes, good question. And hi, Kyla, thank you for the invite onto this podcast.
It's great to chat today.
So yeah, good question about the hypnotherapy side of things.
A lot of people have that similar sort of question because a lot of people,
of course, know of stage hypnosis and all of the funny and wonderful things
(01:45):
that can happen on there.
And then they think that that might be similar to what happens in the therapy room.
But really, it's a totally different process, really. It's a totally different
mechanism that's being used.
So clinical hypnotherapy, it's really, if you just think of hypnotherapy as
a different modality of therapy,
hypnotherapy it is in no way a way
that you know we gain control over anyone's brain
(02:08):
or anything like that what happens in a session of hypnotherapy is
essentially there will be some counseling component of course first so we get
to get to know the person and get to know what they're wanting to work on and
talk through that like we would you know with any other kind kind of issue and
the hypnosis gets used at some point in the session just as another way of doing
therapy so So often there will be a case of,
(02:29):
you know, somebody might close their eyes. It might be a guided visualization.
It might be a more collaborative kind of process where we get them to sort of
maybe talk back and go into their imagination, describe things.
But it's certainly not a case of being asleep or unconscious.
There's no stage antics, anything like that. It's just a different way of doing therapy.
And yeah, when it works well, hopefully a way of getting to some of the deeper
(02:52):
issues that people can experience that helps people to, yeah,
often get some insights that they might not otherwise get when they're just
doing, you know, sort of straight-up talk therapy.
Okay. So do some people come into it believing that they can't
hypnotize because maybe they've got that impression from the sort of stage and
TV shows where there's that impression that you go under somehow for something to work.
(03:16):
Yeah, sometimes people do have that concern. I mean, I must say less and less
these days, I think I get those questions.
I think that hypnotherapy is starting to become something that's a bit more
mainstream and most people might, you know, sort of know somebody that's done
it before or they might know a little bit about it anyway.
So some of those misconceptions I think are getting less and less and I do get
(03:36):
less of those questions.
But yeah, certainly sometimes people come or they even just inquire and they
say, I don't think I can be hypnotized.
And yeah, really, I just explain the process of being hypnotized as being not
that much different to when you're in a state of flow.
So what I mean by that is, let's say you've got a favorite sport that you play
(03:57):
or a musical instrument, or you're really into reading your favorite book at
the moment, and you get into a state of flow where you're very focused,
time sort of distorts, and you're not really focused on the time anymore,
and you're just very in the zone.
That is a hypnotic state in and of itself. And that's kind of what we're using
in the clinical hypnosis space, where we're just using a person's ability to
(04:20):
become very focused and very in the zone with what they're doing.
And in that way, it kind of bypasses some of those conscious processes that might get in the way.
When people are sort of thinking and talking about their problem,
they might be coming at it from a very, you know, sort of top-down cognitive kind of place.
But, you know, when they're in a more hypnotic sort of space,
you know, it just facilitates that
(04:42):
ability to go a little bit deeper when they're in the zone and focused.
And is that why it's such a kind of good vehicle for change?
Because a lot of our behaviours are in our subconscious, they're automatic,
and we don't do them on that sort of cognitive level.
Absolutely. Yes. Yep. So, I mean, you know, I think it's important to say that
I think that a lot of cognitive therapies are really important and I definitely
(05:03):
incorporate those into my work as well.
But yeah, certainly using something like hypnosis as part of the sessions,
I find it's really helpful for a lot of people because it helps them go a bit
beyond that cognitive level and helps them to go even into more sort of somatic
levels of their experiencing.
So when they, you know, start to notice particular feelings in their body and
(05:25):
they can start to join the dots between how they feel and maybe things that
have happened in the past or maybe even things that they're currently doing,
it just allows for a bit more insight.
Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. And it's funny that you should say that because I
was just going to lead you there. It's interesting.
I think when we start out in our professional lives, we come at it from a very
(05:45):
logical kind of cognitive basis.
And the early stuff we learn is certainly in that area.
And then the more, I suppose, we relax into our work, the more we explore these
other areas like the subconscious and like the somatic work,
which I'm learning more and more about. And it's amazing how,
The more you learn, the more it connects into all the other things that you
(06:09):
do. And it helps us as clinicians make sense of it all.
And hopefully it's just how we kind of interpret that and how we manage to explain
to the people that come to see us how it all connects together.
Absolutely. You know, I've been doing this work for just over 10 years now.
And I find that who I was as a therapist, you know, in my first year versus
(06:30):
third versus fifth versus now. and I'm sure into the future as well.
It just keeps evolving and changing.
There's so much to learn in this space, so much to integrate.
It's work that never gets boring, which is why I love it. Yeah, me too.
I figured out years ago, I think, that I'm intelligent, but I've got a very short attention span.
(06:52):
And I was quite happy to find that out about myself.
But what it means is that I need that constant learning.
I need that constant stimulation. formulation, I don't thrive well in circumstances
where I kind of go, oh yeah, I know that now.
And there's nothing routine, I think, about therapy.
Like when we go into therapy thinking that it's going to be a particular kind of structure,
(07:15):
a particular kind of predictable formulaic thing, you know, that's when we will
get bored with it, you know, but when we can actually see the person in front
of us and how unique they are and respond to their needs in the moment in a
very attuned kind of way.
And I think that happens through some of this more, you know,
somatic subconscious kind of work, then we never get bored.
Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know what sort of people that come to see us think,
(07:39):
but I know sometimes I go in to a session with a bit of a plan.
You know, I kind of go, I don't want to look an idiot here. I'm going to have
a little bit of a plan of what to do with this person.
And then sometimes your plan completely flies out the window because they will
walk in with something that's happened, something new, some direction they want to take.
And we end up as clinicians having to, you know,
(08:03):
really kind of ad lib our way through a lot of sessions because suddenly the
little plan we have is thrown out the window and we've got to think as we go
how we're going to respond to that.
And I don't think people realize that when they come to see us.
Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what people might think,
actually. It'd be interesting feedback to know.
But yeah, it's certainly, you know, I think in order to be an effective therapist,
(08:26):
yeah, you sort of, you really have to toe that line between having a structure
to what you're doing, but then also being really flexible, you know,
as to what actually, you know, presents in the moment.
Now, you mentioned something to me in an email a little while ago,
gut-directed hypnotherapy.
And I'll be totally honest, I have no clue what that is.
So can you explain a bit more? Because it sounds like it's something you're
(08:49):
going to explain it and I'm going to go, oh my God, that links more things together.
So tell me what it is and how it works. Of course. So look, hypnotherapy can
be used as a modality in and of itself.
Clinical hypnotherapy can be used for just about anything really.
Lots of people know of hypnotherapy for things like quit smoking or working
on fears and phobias, anxiety, that sort of thing.
(09:10):
But one of the growing areas that hypnotherapy is actually most commonly being
used these days is in the gut space.
So whenever anybody is experiencing any functional gut symptoms,
and by functional gut symptoms, I mean things that aren't necessarily connected to any pathology.
So we've got things like Crohn's disease, irritable bowel disease.
(09:31):
Ulcerative colitis. Those things have an actual pathology.
They've got biomarkers that can be found that indicate disease within the body.
We're not necessarily talking about that category of people,
although they may still benefit.
But we're talking about people who experience functional gut symptoms.
So things like most people have heard of IBS, irritable bowel syndrome,
where they might experience an assortment of gut symptoms ranging from diarrhea,
(09:56):
constipation, bloating, excess gas, pain, all of that sort of thing.
And there's not necessarily any reason why this is happening.
They get all the scans done, they get the gastroscopy, the endoscopy,
the colonoscopy, all of these things.
There's nothing to be found, but nonetheless, they're still having the symptoms.
And this is the category of people who are a really good target for something
(10:21):
like gut-directed hypnotherapy because essentially we're using hypnotherapy
to kind of, for lack of a better way to say it, rewire that mind-body connection.
Often there can be something that's kind of gone amiss, whether it's a physical
stress that's even happened.
Sometimes people can have maybe like a food poisoning or an illness or something
and it sort of kicks off a bunch of these symptoms that It's sort of just become
(10:43):
a bit of a pattern for the body. Or maybe it's a stress response.
You know, maybe somebody experiences depression.
A lot of anxiety and stress, and that started to affect how they're digestively functioning.
And then, of course, some people experience, as you and I both know,
things in the realms of eating disorders or disordered eating,
and of course, that interrupts gut function as well.
(11:05):
So all of these types of people can benefit from something like gut-directed
hypnotherapy, which is essentially a hypnotherapy technique that is used to
rewire some of that mind-body body functioning and help the digestion just happen more effectively.
So is this sort of directly connected to the sort of vagal nerve somatic work?
Because I've studied a lot of that in its connection with trauma and how it
(11:29):
affects the parasympathetic nervous system.
And again, it's one of those things, like I was saying earlier,
the more I learn, the more these pennies drop where you go, oh,
that's connected to that.
You know and it's it's so interesting how
we get these physical effects that we're
dealing with which we have no knowledge that they're
actually kind of heavily influenced by things like
(11:51):
past traumas and how we hold that in our nervous system yeah yeah absolutely
I mean yeah I think I think you're onto something there and I think all of this
stuff is is connected to some degree I think and especially like in western
science we've very much you know come to conceptualize the brain and the body
as like different things or the mind and the body as different things.
But, you know, more and more we can see through, you know, a lot of somatic
(12:14):
therapies and vagal nerve knowledge, all that sort of stuff,
you know, that the mind and the body are connected and they really influence
each other in a bi-directional kind of way.
And our bodies are very influenced by our thought processes and,
you know, stress and all of that sort of thing.
So yeah, essentially we're getting the mind and the body just back on the same
page again and helping a person with their digestion through that way.
(12:38):
But how does the hypnotherapy, I mean, you say rewiring, so how do you direct it towards the gut?
Because you said it was gut-directed, but how do you do that?
Yeah, so rewiring is probably, it's probably not quite the right word,
but I think it's just a word that makes sense to a lot of people.
But essentially in a session of gut-directed hypnotherapy, and normally it will
be like a program of sessions that people do, but there will be a lot of direct
(13:01):
suggestion and suggestion for particular kinds of visualizations about how the gut functions.
And so we're essentially trying to relax the nervous system and give a lot of
direct suggestion about how the gut can function in a much more effective and
comfortable kind of way.
And it's directed in the sense that each session that we do with somebody is
specific to what they're experiencing because everybody experiences different kinds of symptoms.
(13:26):
So we make it a very tailored sort of process to each individual and make sure
that we're targeting their specific symptoms and using, you know,
visuals and metaphors and things that are going to resonate with them.
And so each session that we do, and usually people will do somewhere between
sort of four to six sessions or something in order to, you know,
quote unquote treat, you know, something something like IBS.
(13:47):
Each session will be about 20 minutes long. We'll do that visualization.
Very low pressure on the part of the person receiving the gut-directed hypnotherapy.
All they need to do is just sit back, relax, close their eyes,
just kind of get into it, use their imagination.
They get a recording after that, and we get the person to listen to the recording
essentially most days in between sessions.
(14:08):
So it's a process that might take, you know, between sort of four to six weeks,
but very, very effective.
So it's one of the most well-studied uses of hypnotherapy at this point.
There's heaps out there in terms of trials and things that have been replicated.
And usually in the realms of about 70% to 80% of people notice a significant
decrease in their symptoms.
(14:29):
So it's a really good tool for a lot of people who might otherwise be considering
or have already tried a lot of
medications or procedures, procedures or especially dietary restriction.
You know, that's often one of the things that people can immediately go to when
they're starting to, you know, experience symptoms of IBS.
(14:49):
They might start cutting out, you know, entire food groups and all of that sort of thing.
And it's, you know, obviously that's, you know, in the space of disordered eating,
I mean, that's contraindicated to begin with.
But, you know, if anyone can not have to cut out entire food groups,
then that is also a very preferable thing as well isn't it you know if people
can actually heal some of their symptoms with something like hypnotherapy and
(15:13):
not have to change their diet at all then that's very preferable so is this
something that once you've completed your masters are you gonna
continue in this sort of speciality that you've had over the last 10 years?
Yeah, it's funny. People ask me that and my answer is absolutely because why
would I stop doing something that works?
(15:33):
Sometimes we discover something along the way when we study that,
you know, this little avenue which we go, oh, that's really interesting.
Perhaps I should branch into that.
And I just wondered if you'd had a little discovery that was going to tempt
you away from doing this sort of work, that's all.
Yeah, no, look, probably the discovery has been more of the gut-directed side
(15:54):
of things because I've been working as a hypnotherapist for 10 years now and
working with disordered eating for a long time and all of that sort of thing.
But it's only in the last couple of years that I've started to work a lot more
with the gut side of stuff.
And that's really useful for a lot of my clients that have experienced disordered eating as well.
And yeah, just in the last couple of years, started to read a lot more of the
(16:14):
research in that space and started to really see how effective it is.
And so combining that has been just like such a good tool, you know,
to use for a lot of my clients as well.
So yeah, by the end of next year, I will have finished my master's,
you know, if all is going well.
And certainly my title will change on paper, but I think I'll be essentially
(16:35):
doing much of the same work, you know, what I know already works.
Fantastic. Oh, I'm glad we're not losing you to something else along the way. No, I'm still here.
Excellent. Excellent. So your business is Freedom From Food.
So just tell me about the sort of people that come to you.
What sort of cross-section of people do you get? So, I mean,
(16:57):
my business is open to all demographics of people, all ages, all genders.
I tend to see a lot of, I suppose, young adults,
people in their sort of 20s, 30s, maybe even and 40s that have had maybe a long
history of dieting, maybe they've had an eating disorder, whether or not it
(17:17):
was diagnosed at any point,
that's not important either way, the labels of things.
Although, of course, I want to know the history of that. But yeah,
I tend to see a lot of young people who are really deciding that it's time for
them now to heal their relationship with food.
And maybe they've already done a lot of work on themselves to some degree and
(17:38):
they've sort of, you know, placard or gotten to a certain point or maybe,
you know, this is the first thing that they've tried. Sometimes that also happens too.
But yeah, that tends to be the kinds of people that I'm seeing.
Well, I know I've certainly had the confidence to send a few people your way
over the years. I appreciate that.
You're my go-to in Melbourne. Wonderful.
You did some, I mean, how many years ago was it that you did originally the
(18:03):
eating disorder course with me? It must have been...
I'm going to say maybe about eight years ago, something like that.
Yeah, I'm trying to think back. It would have been eight or ten years ago.
Yeah, even ten. Yeah, I'm not sure. It was certainly in my earlier career days. Yeah.
So I don't know if you did realize at the time, that was actually the first
ever eating disorder course that I hosted down in Melbourne.
(18:27):
The first ever one. I don't know if I did realize that, but it's funny,
isn't it? I remember when I had my first client thinking to myself,
they don't know that they're your first client. Just like, fake it till you make it.
Absolutely. I just remember going down to Melbourne and going,
I'm going to give this a shot.
(18:47):
And if it's a disaster, I'll just bury myself somewhere and nobody will ever
know that I ever did this.
Luckily, you're a natural. I don't know about that. I had to discover an awful
lot, but Bianca and I spent a whole week together down in Melbourne,
just with me talking about eating disorders and getting the class to do all sorts of things.
(19:07):
It was a fairly big class. I think it was about 18 people.
So for a first attempt, it was a bit of a shocker for me to have to talk for
basically five days to all these people.
But after that, it went from strength to strength and it was only really,
things started to change around COVID time when we could no longer do that face-to-face stuff.
So the people doing the course now are doing it online rather than face-to-face.
(19:32):
And it's essentially still the same. Nothing much has changed over those years.
But it was just interesting that I'm still in contact with
A few people from that first ever course, they've sort of stuck with me.
Yeah, isn't that funny? And I've got really fond memories of,
yeah, of that week of, you know, meeting a few people who I still talk to as well.
And, you know, it's just a really enjoyable training, like really,
(19:54):
really thorough, really comprehensive, really interesting and engaging.
And yeah, I mean, I mean it when I say it, you're a natural as a teacher,
Kyla. And yeah, so it was enjoyable.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Now, look, if you want to get in touch with
Bianca, if you are down in Melbourne, or do you do telehealth as well?
(20:14):
I do. Yeah, yeah. So basically.
Probably half the clients that I have I've never met in person.
Right. Not necessarily in Melbourne, not even necessarily in Australia sometimes.
But, yeah, so telehealth is also completely fine. And we can do hypnotherapy
on telehealth as well. Sometimes that's a question that people have.
But yeah, as long as you've got a good internet connection and a quiet place
(20:35):
to be able to have your session, that's all you need.
Fantastic. So literally, you could be anywhere and you could connect with Bianca.
So don't worry about the Melbourne part. You could be anywhere.
What I will do is put a link to your business in the episode notes for this
episode so people can get in contact with you directly if what you've said today
(20:56):
has any interest for them.
So hopefully, Hopefully, please be prepared to do that. And I'd like to thank
Bianca so much for joining me today. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
No problem at all. It's been my pleasure.
Thank you so much for your company today. I would also love it if you could follow this podcast.
It really does mean a lot to me. also we have
(21:19):
a six-week online change your relationship with food
course that you can take just visit www.acfeb.com and click on the ACFEB and
me courses link there's also a journal and a workbook available on Amazon and
you'll find that link in our bio I really hope you can join me again next week.
(21:41):
Music.
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