Our community and front porch are stretching this week to bring in an (uncaped) crusader from up north, Michele Howard, the director of the Traverse Area District Library system! I met Michele at this year's Michigan Library Association conference in October. Her story of firing up organizations in her city to dig in and work together to make change inspired me to make her my first recorded interview for the podcast (if not our first episode). Michele's great work brings hope that any community can start a conversation that overcomes barriers and brings life-changing results with the right motivation. We are also joined again by Cara McGee, our in-house comic creator, who was gearing up for Emerald City Comic Con in Seattle. She gives some hints on her current projects, talks the best cities to stock up on too many specialty foods, and shares her favorite celeb comic con encounters. And somewhere in there we try to solve the mystery of an obscure, possibly German dessert multiple decades after it was served. There's something for everyone this week on the Front Porch!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stef (00:13):
I am Steph Reed.
I am the Director of theFlat River Community Library
Cara (00:20):
I'm Cara McGee.
I work at the Circulation Desk.
Michelle (00:25):
I am Michelle Howard and I am the Library Director
at the Traverse Area DistrictLibrary in Traverse City, Michigan.
Cory (00:34):
Welcome to the Flat River Front Porch.
Stef (00:39):
I've just been thinking this whole time that Sharon is
Cara (00:41):
time
Stef (00:41):
I'm turning you into one person.
I don't know faces or names.
I just, I just sit in my office and type
things.
Cara (00:48):
in my office
spreadsheets
Stef (00:51):
all day.
you don't want to host this time?
Cara (00:53):
I'm good.
Stef (00:54):
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
You're not the performer, apparently.
So, I am once again, having theopportunity to, to geek out with
our, our resident comic gal.
Comic gal, yes.
with Kara.
And so I'll go ahead andintroduce yourself again.
Again.
Cara (01:10):
Again, again.
I'm Cara McGee.
I work at the Circulation Deskhere, not to be confused with
Cara, um, who also works up there.
Stef (01:17):
there.
Eventually you're notgoing to have to say that
anymore.
I,
Cara (01:20):
say that anymore.
I know!
feel like we're pretty easyto tell apart because I'll
have
weird
Stef (01:24):
look anything alike, definitely.
Um, it's, yeah, it's in name only.
You
Cara (01:30):
are,
Stef (01:30):
you
are not
twinsies.
We've
Cara (01:33):
I mean, comics bring us together.
As
Stef (01:43):
Well, I mean, comics bring
us
Cara (01:45):
talked about before, we
Stef (01:51):
we've talked about before, we are big, hardcore comic people, generally
speaking, so you found a good home,
Cara (01:57):
definitely.
Stef (01:58):
there's never any shortage of comic stuff to talk about.
Um, so what's, what's new in your world?
Cara (02:05):
Lots, I feel like there's a lot going on right now,
especially, particularly right now.
I'm getting ready, uh, to fly outto Seattle for Emerald City Comic
Con, uh, this coming weekend.
It's probably my biggest show of theyear, um, other than like San Diego
Comic Con, which I don't table at usually
if I, if I ever go, causeit's a very overwhelming
(02:27):
show.
Stef (02:28):
so that's, so what do you typically
Cara (02:30):
then?
At San Diego, I will, um, if I havenew stuff coming out that year, I will
usually go to my publisher's table andhave like a signing um, or whatever their
scheduled signing or um, whatever else.
I'll do panels every so often, um,but for the most part I just, it's the
one con where I get to actually walk
(02:52):
around and enjoy it.
It's like way
Stef (02:55):
enjoy it.
I've gone to other, events wherethere's been, exhibition floors, and
I've done table work before, and it is
Cara (03:07):
monotonous,
It is a grind.
Yeah.
Stef (03:10):
So,
it's, it's the day job of comic
Cara (03:13):
Honestly, Yeah,
Yeah, basically, it wasuntil I started working here.
It was like the one time amonth I would get out of the
house and interact with people.
you know, living in Greenville,especially where I am, um, where
my neighbors are limited, I guess.
It's, it's nice to, like, go to theconventions and talk to, like, hundreds,
if not thousands, of people over threeor four days and then come back here
(03:36):
and, like, hide in the woods, basically.
Stef (03:39):
Be reminded from time to
time what the boundaries oftypical human conversation is.
when you have those moments whereYou finish saying something and the
other person is just sitting there
trying to absorb whatever youjust said and you have that
moment you're like, Oh, right.
Okay.
So there's that boundary
Cara (03:57):
Yeah.
Like, am I talking like a normal person?
Right.
Stef (04:00):
Yeah.
You have to
be reminded from time to time, I suppose.
I'm curious, I don't know if youknow the answer to this, is there
a particular reason why Seattleis called Emerald City Con?
Cara (04:10):
Um, Seattle, I don't know the reason for it, but I know the
nickname for Seattle is the Emerald
City.
Stef (04:17):
well that's just my lack of cultural
Cara (04:20):
knowledge
Stef (04:20):
okay.
I
Cara (04:21):
And I only knew that, you know, after I'd been doing the
con for a
Stef (04:24):
never been west of, of
Cara (04:26):
Oh
Stef (04:26):
Wait, is
that true?
No, I think technically Mesa Verde
was
the
farthest
west, but
that's still Colorado.
Um, so yeah,
Cara (04:35):
that's,
I love Mesa
Stef (04:36):
yeah, I'm very excited because I'm going to the ALA in San Diego this
year.
And that's going to
Cara (04:40):
be my official,
Stef (04:41):
official finally hitting that west coast.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I'ma Midwesterner by birth.
Cara (04:48):
I love Seattle.
Um, one of my favorite things about doingthis convention and one of the reasons
I do it every year, other than it's areally good show, is it's like right
down the street from Pike's Place Market,
which is, like, where they
do the fish throwing and all that.
The food there is so good.
Oh my gosh.
I, I, I'm already in my head.
I have a list of things I knowI want to eat while I'm in
(05:10):
Seattle.
Stef (05:11):
you ship stuff back?
Cara (05:12):
Every so often.
Every so often.
Um, I know this year I'mprobably gonna have to.
Usually I can stuff, stuffin my luggage and come back.
But I have a lot of newmerchandise and products and stuff
Stef (05:23):
Oh, yeah.
Cara (05:24):
So I have no idea what it's gonna look like traveling back.
But I have a feeling I might have to.
Ship some stuff home.
Stef (05:32):
I feel like there's that
scarcity economy that comes withstuff like that, that you're
like, in the moment, you're like,
I'm
going to want this in a month.
I'm going to wish that I had eaten this.
So I need to, I need toget all of this right now.
Cara (05:45):
Yeah, and I, I've been very bad about that in the past because I do
travel a lot and one of the things I liketo do or pick up whenever I travel is
Get regional foods and stuff like that.
I'm a sucker for that.
But then the problem is, is I get veryprecious about it and I feel like I
hoard it and then I never use it and thestuff will go bad before I can use it
(06:06):
because I'm like, no, it's too good tolike just use it casually and I'm trying
to be better about that instead of likesaving things for special occasions.
I'm just like So
Stef (06:17):
what
kind of, what kind of stuff are yougetting that you're being precious
Cara (06:20):
are you getting that you're being precious about?
Stef (06:26):
Something
that you're not just sittingdown with a jar of it and just
eating it with a spoon, that
sort of thing.
Cara (06:31):
down with a jar of it and just eating it with a spoon.
Like cherry queso, and I've justbeen like working my way through
that the last couple of days.
I'm like, I eat thisand not just let it sit.
Stef (06:56):
too many things that we can get really excited about and it stops
being like, uh, what I'm picturing islike Little House on the Prairie and
oh, I got an orange for Christmas.
What a, what a delight.
And then, I mean, is not an exactcorrelation because it was still
in Grand Rapids, but I went to,to downtown market with my family,
on Saturday and downtown market.
(07:18):
They, you know, it's.
All of these different
like food
vendors
and stuff like that.
So I was like, oh I need toget croissants Oh, I need to
Cara (07:26):
get I need
Stef (07:26):
to get
pastries.
I need to get soda.
I need to get like all,you know, X, Y, and Z.
and then you get all these perishablefoods and you're like, okay, well
I need to stuff all of these intomy face right now because otherwise
they're not going to get eaten.
It's like, oh, I just ate 4, 000 calories.
Cara (07:42):
Exactly, I do that.
Again, yeah, this is me.
Anytime I go to a city I'm familiar with
for a convention,
like later this year, I'mgoing to Atlanta for another
convention.
And I lived in Atlanta for ten years, so Ihave this whole, I know the Hans, I've got
all this, these places I need to go backto and stock up on food at and like get
(08:02):
all my old favorite things from college.
And the dangerous thing about Atlantais they, there's this place down there
called the DeKalb Farmer's Market.
It's this huge, like, warehousesized, like, international grocery
market with, like, fresh, like, exoticfruits and spices and seafood and,
like, this huge, beautiful, like,international bakery inside of it.
(08:24):
And I literally will just, like,at, after the con, before I, like,
because I drive to this convention
specifically
to Load up at this market on allthese like breads and like they've
got this really great like Europeanstyle deli So I'll like grab
like Russian style salamis and cured meatsand stuff and I'm like, this is fine.
(08:46):
This is normal
Stef (08:47):
Yeah, like, tourist eating, eating like a tourist, and, Approaching it as
like, I have to do this all right now.
It's a dangerous thing.
And it reaches the pointof not being fun anymore,
Cara (08:58):
Yeah, because you put a lot of pressure on yourself.
It's like, if I, you know, I'm goingto regret it if I go and I don't eat
this and this and this and like, IThere was a patron in here actually
the other day, um, we were, we got totalking and she's from the Philippines
originally, and I love Filipino food.
And one of the things I'm very excitedabout getting while I'm in Seattle
(09:19):
this weekend is there's a little stallin Pike's Market that does, um, a
salmon, uh, sinigang soup, which islike this tamarind based, like, rice,
vegetable soup.
It's like Very, very distinctive flavors.
And
I,
I've had it like a couple of timesand it's been years since I've had it.
(09:40):
And I've been thinking about this
soup for
Stef (09:43):
yeah.
And it will never live upto your expectations, too.
Cara (09:46):
But I'm still gonna be real excited to go get it.
I hope it lives up to my expectations.
Stef (09:52):
Yeah, it's funny how food can, like, leave sense memories like this.
I can still mentally sort of, like,taste this really amazing stew that
I had in one of the hiking huts inthe Alps at one point, it was one
of those places where they don'thave, they don't have water heaters.
in order to get supplies andstuff brought to the, location.
(10:15):
They have like baskets
Cara (10:17):
Oh my gosh!
Stef (10:18):
cause they literally they are like an hour hike,
Cara (10:21):
Wow.
That's incredible.
Stef (10:23):
but they had, Such good food there.
and
I think I was even a vegetarian when I
had It but
I broke it just because I'm justlike, I, I need to experience this.
yeah, and oh my gosh, that was 20years ago and I can still remember it.
Cara (10:39):
I tell you what, one of my literal earliest memories, um,
I lived in Germany as a littlekid because my dad was military.
And so
probably,
Stef (10:49):
Oh my gosh, it's
Cara (10:50):
it's so good.
And I vividly remember being at like maybea New Year's celebration or something.
I just remember my parents, we, wewent to like this fancy party at a
hotel for New Year's And they servedthis like Strawberry dessert that was
almost like a creamy Jell O pudding
(11:11):
consistency.
Very, very specificflavor and consistency.
And I was probably like four or five.
And this has stuck in my
head
for like decades.
And I've literally been chasing thatflavor this whole, like, for years.
Stef (11:26):
Did you ever figure out what it
Cara (11:27):
I'm still, I'm still, trying to figure it out.
Every time I'm at, like, a Europeanstyle market or anything, I
will, like, grab whatever, like,instant pudding mixes or jello
mixes or
Stef (11:37):
probably doesn't even exist.
Cara (11:38):
It probably doesn't, it might've just been, like, something I, like,
my young mind came up with, or,like, maybe it was specific to that
hotel or something, is it, like, aBlanc, Blanc Mange, or I don't know.
I'm determined someday to figure out.
Stef (11:52):
like,
German pastry school to go
Cara (11:57):
to
I
Stef (11:58):
to, to, to learn the full breadth of, of,
Cara (12:00):
of the Yeah,
Stef (12:06):
that's what it sounds like.
Which is funny because you don't typicallythink of Germany as like a dessert.
Cara (12:12):
Yeah,
and it, it, it is possible that itwasn't even in Germany, honestly,
Stef (12:16):
because
Cara (12:17):
we, you know,
Europe is so different, um, that youcan just take a, like, a few hour
drive and be in a different country.
And my, I know my parents used to do that.
We used to, like, drive aroundEurope and just explore and stuff.
Stef (12:31):
And I'm guessing that this did not have the same impression on them.
It's not like you couldask your mom, like, do
Cara (12:36):
you
I've asked her, she's like, I haveno idea what you're talking about.
And I'm like, yeah, I was,you know, I think I was just
at the right age at the time.
Yeah.
That it like
cemented
Stef (12:46):
It was probably just, like, pudding.
Cara (12:49):
Yeah, . Exactly.
Exactly.
But I, it was so good.
Someday I'll figure it out andI'll be so happy then I can
die.
Stef (12:58):
that I can die.
this is a really nerdy connection tomake, but, um, it's kind of like when you
read books as a child, like, and when youform, like, really strong attachments to
something that you, um, that you reallyenjoyed reading when you were young, um,
there's no point rereading it at a, aftera certain age because at that, like,
at a certain point, you're just like,I'm never going to feel the way that
(13:21):
I did when I read this the first time.
usually, Food doesn't have thatsort of emotional response, but
Cara (13:29):
Sometimes.
it's funny that you mention a book,having that response because I think
like something similar actuallyhappened to me on desk the other day.
Oh yeah.
Like somebody had brought back astack of kids books and including
like the older Arthur books.
Um
Stef (13:44):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Cara (13:45):
And I never read those books as a kid, but the illustration style look.
It's just like a book that I rememberhaving read over and over, like,
in my mind, but it was like about arabbit with like a brand new carpet.
Stef (13:58):
It
Cara (13:58):
So, a very specific kid's book.
And I sat on, like, at the computerand I was like, this has got to be
the same illustrator that did that.
Book
Stef (14:08):
Mark Brown,
Cara (14:08):
right?
I think so, yeah.
Yep.
And yeah, after some GooglingI realized, yeah, it was him
illustrating a different writer and Iwas like, thank God that just didn't,
wasn't like the pudding to certain,I didn't like imagine this book.
I
was like, Well, and but I thought aboutyears until I saw that book come through
Stef (14:26):
those books were so popular.
I have to imagine that there was some.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just like there is now in children'sliterature, there's a, there's
some imitation that can come
Cara (14:36):
um, Right.
Stef (14:36):
when particular illustrators have really popular books of the
things that's really interestingto me we talked a little bit about
clickiness in the publishing industry.
And I think there's a little bitof that with children's books now
too, that like there's,
they all sort of know each otherand sometimes, author illustrators
will illustrate their own books,sometimes they won't, sometimes they'll
illustrate other people's books,sometimes they'll just write the,
(15:00):
prose, and then somebody else will.
It's
Cara (15:02):
fascinating.
It's, yeah,
it's bizarre.
I don't have as much, like, I'mnot into that side of publishing
as much as I used to be.
Like, I was saying earlier, Iused to hang out with a lot of,
YA and fantasy writers and stuff at
conventions.
Um, and, and not so much anymore.
Just because, like, I feellike this is every industry.
There's just so many cliques.
(15:23):
And like, you do get like the, thealmost middle school, high school
mentality almost with amongst them.
And it gets exhausting.
And I'm like, I can't,I'm too old for this.
I just wanted to draw comic books.
Stef (15:37):
books.
I wonder if part their core audience, too.
I, all of the.
Um, the children's authors andillustrators that I have, um,
that I've had contact with, thatI've, you know, been able to have
personal interactions with, theirvibe is much more like, this is just
Cara (16:00):
Exactly.
And
that's who you want.
Yeah,
that's
who you want to work with, isjust people who are making books.
Not so much because they'relooking at what's popular and
what their peers are doing.
They're like, oh, so and so is making abook like this, so I've got to make sure
I can have something to go against that.
You want to be, you want tocollaborate with people who are
(16:21):
doing it for the joy of doing it, for
telling stories.
Stef (16:24):
and
they get to do such fun stuff,
Cara (16:26):
Exactly.
Stef (16:27):
There's this really phenomenal, um, he occasionally will write his own books,
but he's primarily known for illustration.
his name is Christian Robinson andhe has this very distinctive, um,
style where he does a lot of, sortof found object art where a lot,
it's sort of like paper piecing arts.
It's very,
it's, it's, three dimensional
Cara (16:45):
basically.
Stef (16:46):
his work is really, it's gorgeous and, um, so it's definitely worth
checking out, but, when I've interactedwith him at conventions and stuff, he's
just, he's so sweet and he always seemslike he's in a really good mood and
like, yeah, I, I feel like, they getthe more positive side of, of that world
such as it is, but, um, I, I have afeeling that working with teenagers kind
Cara (17:13):
of
tends to
Stef (17:14):
to bring out a different side maybe a little bit, but.
Cara (17:17):
little bit, but.
Who knows?
It's, it's interesting.
Like, my personal experience doingYA middle grade books and stuff
has always been super positive.
Like, that's one of the best feelings islike having a young reader come to you
specifically at a
Stef (17:35):
absolutely.
Yeah,
the kids aren't the problems.
It's the adults.
That's my mantra.
That's
Cara (17:40):
Oh, 100%.
100%.
Stef (17:42):
The kids, yeah, they're not causing the trouble.
It's when you bring the grown upsinto the room that the real trouble
Cara (17:47):
Yeah.
Stef (17:48):
Okay.
a pin in that.
let's go ahead and transitionto our interview for this week.
this is going to be alittle bit different.
we're thinking outside the box here.
we're redefining a little bit what, um,what community means and what, uh, what
our community entails and how big it gets.
Our circle is bigger this week and,the person that I interviewed for
(18:09):
this one was actually the very firstinterview that I did in anticipation
of starting this podcast, and I'vehad this in my pocket since October.
and I met this person at theMichigan Library Association
annual conference this year.
she really is a perfect example of Howyou make your community and your circle
bigger, and how you get out of your,your silo, your, your small circle that
(18:33):
we live in from day to day, and, andhow we expand that and how we include
a wider range of people around us.
she has a great story of, ofdoing exactly that, of thinking of
outside the box in her community.
our guest today, is actually thelibrary director for the Traverse Area
District Library System Michelle Howard.
(18:54):
So thank you very much forbeing my very first interview
thank you so much for joiningme for this so tell me who you
are and where we can find you.
Michelle (19:07):
I am Michelle Howard and I am the Library Director
at the Traverse Area DistrictLibrary in Traverse City, Michigan.
we have one of the most unusual systems inthe state where we have the main library,
we have two branch libraries, and thenwe have three member libraries that all
have their own boards and own directors.
Stef (19:27):
Okay.
That sounds complicated.
Michelle (19:28):
is so complicated we kind of all follow the same rules, but not always
and we The main library act basically isthe fiduciary and we give them money every
year and then they spend it how they want
Stef (19:43):
Okay.
Michelle (19:43):
But we have a shared ILS So
Stef (19:46):
Which doesn't mean a whole lot to most communities,
Michelle (19:49):
but yeah
Stef (19:50):
means that we keep all of our books in a logical place together.
Michelle (19:53):
Yes.
And basically patrons can go to anyof the six locations and they have no
idea about the structure behind it.
They just can use their card atany of 'em and that's perfect.
Stef (20:04):
it's yeah, it's the beauty behind the curtain
Michelle (20:05):
Yes.
Works.
Stef (20:06):
That's that's all that matters Your library has experienced in recent
times a very different kind of challengethat maybe, maybe someone wouldn't
necessarily associate with libraries.
Um, and that your infrastructure sortof wasn't prepared to handle initially.
So can you tell us a little bit aboutwhat happened with your library?
Michelle (20:26):
So, we, had a, Evening shelter for unhoused individuals open
about two blocks from the library.
Um, and while we had always had incidentsin the past, we, um, were not prepared
for an over 200 percent increase inincidents, and incidents that were
more violent, that were drug related,and that were directed at staff.
(20:49):
Threats to staff, insults to staff,and what we ended up seeing is that our
regular patrons telling us and tellingother places like our branches and members
that they won't come to our main libraryanymore because they don't feel safe.
So we had to do something.
we were trained in empathy based training.
Um, we tried our best to be nice and tobe kind to people, but in the end, we,
(21:14):
we, meaning me and luckily the boarddecided that something had to be done.
So we started to, contract witha security company, so we had
security personnel in the library.
We changed our policies to be lesslenient because we found out people
were taking advantage of that leniencyand Then our board wrote a letter
(21:38):
to the community asking for help
Stef (21:40):
So, um, to step back a little bit, can you tell us a little bit more
about what your staff was experiencing?
what sort of incidents they had to,um, had to grapple with and how they
handled that, how it affected them?
So I think too, I should saythat we're in Northern Michigan
Michelle (21:55):
a and it's cold and the day shelter closes at 8 a.
m.
And they kick everybody out,the night shelter closes at 8 a.
m.
They kick everybody out and they justhave to find a place to be until it opens
back up at about quarter to six at night.
And a lot of our services has closed.
Due to the pandemic.
So places they used to stay warm likethe bus terminal, um, were closed.
(22:18):
Um, so there was really no placefor them to go but the library.
So what we saw was, bodily fluidsthat we had not really seen before.
people coming in, eating,just leaving garbage all over.
And then when the staff would ask themto clean up, you know, being verbally
assaulted, um, people having sex inour bathrooms, people doing drugs in
(22:40):
our bathrooms, people selling drugs.
people passed out drunk.
Um, so staff would try to wakethem up and they would just be
greeted by a barrage of swear words.
it was just like that day afterday, hour after hour in the library.
Um, because a lot of these peoplehave trauma and they also hadn't
(23:00):
probably been to a library before anddidn't really understand the rules.
and they really couldn't understandwhy we wouldn't allow drugs
and alcohol in the library.
Or at least that's what they told us.
Stef (23:10):
hmm.
Um,
Michelle (23:12):
really hard.
I was the same because I tend to handlea lot of them because I'm the director.
I'm the only one who can suspend somebody.
Um, so every day I dreaded cominginto work because I didn't know
what was going to happen that day.
I, I had someone.
verbally assault me and thenthreatened to take my life.
Um, because him and his girlfriendwere in the bathroom together.
(23:35):
And I was kicking them outand they didn't like it.
Um, so it was just, it was thosetypes of things day after day.
It just wore us down.
Stef (23:44):
Yeah, that's that's understandable.
and that's obviously wellbeyond what your average library
staff member is prepared for.
We're not really trained for it.
I know you brought this to your boardwhen you sort of hit your breaking point.
Um, and there is one particular boardmember that it really resonated with.
Could you speak a little bit about that?
Michelle (24:05):
Sure.
So I have a board of likea lot of retired educators.
and she's one of our newest board members.
Mary Lee Pikeser is a nurse practitionerand she currently works in the jails.
doing health care for the jails.
And so when she heard about, you know,someone standing up and urinating in
the middle of our lobby and all theother stuff, she sees that every day.
(24:30):
Um, but she She's trained on that.
And that's what she said islike listening to my voice.
The other thing with nursing is theytalk a lot about moral distress.
And that's where a person feels like theywant to make a change, but they can't.
And that's what a lot of our staffwas feeling is moral distress
because we wanted to help people.
(24:51):
But this is not a problem that justa librarian being nice can fix.
This is a societal problem.
Stef (24:57):
staff was feeling, was moral distress.
Because we
Michelle (24:59):
Other people have to help it.
It just couldn't be us.
And we couldn't, you know, forher, she couldn't watch the library
Stef (25:05):
wants to come and fix.
Michelle (25:06):
go into a place where nobody wants to come in.
and that really resonated with herand her experience in the jails.
And she had worked withpatients with addiction.
And so she just knewsomething had to be done.
And she was the one who said, we'renot going to be the board that sits
and just goes, Oh, I'm sorry, Michelle.
We're going to do something andthat's how the letter came about.
So can you talk a little bit about
Stef (25:25):
I'm sorry, Michelle.
We're going to do something, andthat's how the letter came to be.
Sure, so the letter basically told
Michelle (25:33):
the letter?
Sure, so the letter basically toldpeople what was happening in the
library because most people didn't know.
Unless you came into the mainlibrary, um, you didn't see it.
And so it first informed the communityabout the violence towards...
And the situation of drugsand alcohol in the library.
Um, so we addressed that, whatwas happening with our staff.
(25:53):
And then it asked thecommunity to respond.
It asked for, um, people to cometogether to form a coalition to,
um, Help people who are unhoused.
We can't do it at the library.
We need a day shelter.
We didn't have a day shelter We had anight shelter it asked the Traverse City
Police Department to assign a communityofficer specifically to our area and
Stef (26:17):
our area.
Michelle (26:17):
third was that people would look at opening a day shelter.
there's a lot more details to the letter.
Um, but basically we called thecommunity out to say this is not
a problem we can fix, but this isa problem we're having to address.
Let's try to fix this together.
So we sent it to all the churches,the, all the municipal governments,
townships, county, city, andwe, um, did press releases.
(26:42):
So we had news crews in the libraryand we had, um, reporters from the
newspaper coming in because really a lotof people didn't know how bad it was.
Stef (26:51):
reporters from the newspaper coming in, because really a lot of people didn't
Michelle (27:02):
wanted to,
Stef (27:03):
Make it clear and, and, and not candy coat.
This was a real issue that youcouldn't sweep under the rug anymore.
and that it really required,community participation.
can you speak a little bit about, howyou put together collaborations with
the other community organizationshow that all came together.
(27:24):
Yeah, so it worked out greatthat people just stepped up.
Michelle (27:25):
those those collaborations
Stef (27:26):
a church that had a day shelter
Michelle (27:27):
with the pandemic and they had closed and they stepped
up and said, You know what?
We're gonna open our day shelter,but we need help finding money.
Um, the evening sheltersaid, You know what?
We're gonna open on weekends.
We didn't realize.
even though.
I think some of them did realize.
I think they also just it's hard.
They're nonprofits.
It's hard to find money.
It's hard to find volunteersto help keep people warm.
(27:50):
but they said, we're going to step up.
It's not right for thisto happen to the library.
The city government is steppedup to city of Traverse City.
Our county did not But the city ofTraverse City said, you know, we've got
ARPA funds Let's try to use that money forthe shelter And then the biggest thing was
the police department had been thinkingabout a social worker So they assigned
(28:12):
a community police officer to our areaWhere the shelter is where we are and
where the new day shelter would be andthey hired a social worker So now when
they are confronted with someone who'shaving trouble, alcohol, addiction, not
only does a police officer show up, butsometimes a police officer steps away,
(28:33):
and the social worker steps in to try toget that person those resources they need.
Stef (28:37):
can you provide a little bit more about, for people who
might not be aware, what a socialworker can do in those situations?
Michelle (28:44):
Sure.
So the social worker was someone whowas already established in our community
and they know the community resources.
So we at one point had a young familycoming to the library every day.
Uh, we found out they were unhoused.
The social worker could meet withthem, help them fill out the forms.
Help them, um, apply for differenttypes of financial resources, food
(29:08):
resources, you know, all these things.
It really is a guide tohelping people find their way.
Connect to those resources that areout there that they might not know
and might not even know to ask.
And so that's not really anythingthe library staff is trained in.
The social worker also helped talk toour staff that was so stressed out.
You know, and they just give you ideasfor how to take care of yourself.
(29:32):
You know, we, I gave journals to allof our leadership committee, um, to
try to, Help people like write downwhat you're feeling, meet with our
social worker, but they really are aliaison between the person and the state
that they're in and what services areavailable and they can even deescalate.
Um, you know, we had a patronshow up for months in hospital.
(29:54):
They had brought, beenbrought there by ambulance.
Um, they didn't know howthey were getting home.
You know, the hospitalkind of released them.
And they somehow made theirway from the hospital to the
library, which is about a mile.
Um, and they were just hangingout in the library all day.
Well, we called the social workerwho showed up, who found out what
was happening, how we could getthem back to their home, which was
(30:16):
an hour away, and it was a success.
That person spent one night in theevening shelter, and then got a ride home.
So these are the things that socialworkers can do that, that really, really
make a big impact on the community.
And That is a really nice
Stef (30:32):
workers can do that really, really make a big impact on people.
Michelle (30:36):
um, into,
Stef (30:40):
To people who are on house.
I think for a lot of people, it'slike, it's just such a big issue and
there's so many factors that it'seasy for people to feel like they
just don't want to deal with it.
And especially when it comes to addictionthere's a blame that comes in, into
the equation and then people have aharder time finding empathy and that.
and it seems to me that it'salmost easier to try to.
(31:02):
sidestep the empathy issue and justcome at it from a more practical
angle like that and, and recognizethat there are people who are better
equipped to, to handle these things.
And, and that there can be a practicalvalue to having that as a resource.
Michelle (31:17):
hmm.
Yeah, I think empathy only goes so far.
Yeah.
And...
It's exhausting.
It
Stef (31:26):
empathy that, you know, day to day life even can require sometimes.
Michelle (31:30):
sometimes your patrons don't remember your empathy from the day
before because they were intoxicatedor over, you know, or really high.
And so they just come in the next dayand they're like, what do you mean?
I was a jerk.
And I was, you know,
Stef (31:43):
Right.
These are, and these are people with realhealth issues where that significantly
impact how they behave and, and theyfeel unsafe a lot of the time as well.
to what extent do you think thissituation is unique to your community?
how much do you think, people inother communities should be aware
that these things are potentiallyhappening in their own backyard?
Michelle (32:02):
I, I think homelessness is in a lot of places and addiction
is absolutely in a lot of places.
It's just nobody wants to talk about it.
if you open your eyesto it, then you'll see.
It is there.
I think, unlike Traverse City, where we,it tends to be a hub of people, coming to
Traverse City, um, and we have resources.
There's a lot of communitiesthat don't have any resources.
(32:26):
And so the, I think they'rea little bit more hidden.
Um, but if you talk to yourhealthcare workers, if you talk to
your police, there's probably peopleliving in their cars all over.
Um, you know, and The more we can talkabout it, the more people might recognize
what's going on, and try to form thesecoalitions that can actually help people.
Stef (32:45):
So do you have any recommendations for a community
trying to have this conversationbefore you reach that breaking point?
Where do you think a good place tostart for something like that would be?
Michelle (32:53):
Well, and I think the library is a great place.
Stef (32:56):
Yeah.
Michelle (32:57):
You know, hold a community forum, have a panel.
Um, invite your school social workersbecause we know there's tons of homeless
kids out there that are couch surfers.
Um, Invite your police, invite yourschool social workers, um, invite
your churches, you know, becauseI think they do a lot of care.
A lot of churches have foodpantries and they see that point
of contact, Oh wow, that person'scar suddenly has all their stuff in
Stef (33:21):
They're homeless, they're sick
Michelle (33:22):
They're homeless, they're sleeping, you know, and I, and I
think that was a good place to startto just have that conversation.
Um, and I think the biggest thing,especially with addiction, um, is, you
know, inviting I Any sort of medicalprofessionals would deal with it because
it's that stigma that kills people.
When you're hiding youraddiction away, people die.
Stef (33:42):
Right, right.
Michelle (33:43):
if we can talk about it, it just breaks down that stigma that it's
someone else's problem or, you know,
Stef (33:51):
have addiction.
And
Michelle (33:52):
they're losers, that's why they have addiction.
And so having those communityconversations I think will help.
So people realize, oh, it is aproblem and maybe we can help, you
know, instead of like having peoplehide their problems away, if we can
help, like that's a win for everyone.
Stef (34:09):
problems away, if we can help, like, that's a win for everyone.
it can be very restrictive to, toactually accomplishing anything because,
I mean, maybe you can go back andthink about the why later, but for
right now, let's just try to figureout how to make this no longer or
(34:33):
less of an issue than it is currently.
how to make, the day today a little more doable.
Michelle (34:37):
yeah.
I think a lot of people will,if you relate it as if like
you broke your leg, right?
If you broke your leg, you would go tothe hospital, they would fix your leg.
They might say, what, how did you do this?
And you could say, oh, I, youknow, fell off the stairs, but
they would never shame you.
Right?
Like, they wouldn't call the police onyou, they would fix your leg, right?
Where if a person overdoses.
(34:58):
Um, or has an infection due to druguse, they go to the hospital, they're
sick, they need to be cured, youknow, um, and instead of getting
care, they say, why do you do this?
They're shamed and then the police arecalled, you know, so I think opening this
conversation to our communities abouthomelessness and drugs and addiction,
(35:19):
um, can actually get people help.
Stef (35:21):
questions too.
So, so we're not just, I know, I knowthat this is a very intense topic,
and I'm really grateful for your,um, your viewpoint on it, cause, um,
it's, it's, it's so great seeing acommunity that has seen progress on it.
And, and obviously,um, it's not a perfect.
situation.
Obviously, there's still some otherstruggles that you are encountering,
(35:44):
and it's a, it's an ongoing fight.
But, knowing that it's possibleto make that progress is
definitely, um, reassuring.
I think for, especially for peoplein our profession, but I think those
of us who do observe from day to daythat, that there, there are people
that are struggling with this.
Michelle (35:58):
And I think it's like good to just the library or just anyone who cares
can be that facilitator to get people towork together because with our day shelter
now, the police are seeing less incidentsat the library, less incidents overall.
People are being connected to resources.
They have a place to go to stay warm.
Stef (36:17):
it's been,
Michelle (36:18):
And it's helped the police.
It's helped our community.
It's helped the people who are unhoused.
So yeah, we, you just got to be able tostand up and say, Hey, I want to do it.
And that's hard.
Stef (36:29):
All of us don't want this to be happening in the community.
it's just trying to meet in a commonground and yeah, and that's fantastic.
Michelle (36:36):
Okay.
Stef (36:36):
Um, Fun
questions.
Um, what are you excited aboutin your library right now?
Michelle (36:41):
Oh my God, there's so many exciting
Stef (36:42):
I know that's a hard question to answer.
What are you most excited printers about
Michelle (36:46):
This is kind of random, but um, we got 3D printers about four years ago.
And our 3D printing servicehas gone like, off the charts.
Um, it's just a fun service.
We've added three new 3D printers.
We've got a bigger 3D printer plate.
We have a resin 3D printer now.
(37:09):
We can print things likein more fine detail.
Um, we just added a 3d scanner.
Stef (37:15):
new 3D scanner.
Ooh,
Michelle (37:16):
know.
So people, what would happen is they'dlike a part would break on their like
old boat, let's say, and they wouldhave the part that wasn't broken.
But to CAD design that was a lot of
Stef (37:28):
a 360
Michelle (37:28):
And so what we do is we now have a 3d scanner.
So you put it on the scanner.
The cameras take, you know, a 360view of that and then um, sends
it to the printer and prints it.
Stef (37:39):
That is so cool!
Michelle (37:41):
so cool.
It's just one of those unexpected thingsthat you can get at your local library
and um, so we're, we're just really busy.
We're adding, um, hopefully ifthe board approves the budget,
we'll be adding a staff member.
To help support our 3D printing serviceand just like the whole library of
things and a makerspace idea In ourin our library because there's a need
(38:06):
and it's really cool It's pretty coolYeah, it's really cool Yeah, yeah Yes
Stef (38:23):
So, in this hypothetical scenario, you've been sent to
the library principal's office.
Let's pretend that's a thing.
And let's pretend you'renot the principal in
Michelle (38:30):
in this
Stef (38:31):
So okay.
So what did you get sent tothe principal's office for?
Michelle (38:35):
principal's office for?
Oh, I, I am the worstabout returning books.
I would, that's why, I would have so manyfines, even though I come there every day.
Like, I never check out anymaterials at the library that
have fines because I would.
Totally have to pay so many fines.
Stef (38:51):
didn't pay so many fines.
Michelle (38:52):
I'm the worst, but I think a lot of librarians are.
Stef (38:55):
Yes, I think there's something about being in the library every day that makes
it be like it's, it's less of an event.
It's, it's more of acontinuous experience.
Whereas I keep telling people this too,because I have two young kids, um, that,
um, I, I have to really be purposefulto get my children in the library
and give them that experience becausemom and dad both work at the library.
(39:19):
So, um, so we bring home materials,but like so much of it is that
experience at that age, butyeah, I think we're all guilty of
Michelle (39:26):
We're all guilty.
I, and I've wrecked books in my bathtub.
You know, I'm like, I know why, you know,you know, if you sit, like, I don't even
have a very good bathtub, but sometimesI just want to sit in there reading
you, you're like, ah, I dropped it.
You know, it's just like,oh, I'll just pay for that.
You know, like.
Stef (39:40):
It happens to everybody,
Michelle (39:42):
the challenge, right?
Yes, the struggle is real becauseyou just want to read everywhere.
Stef (39:47):
everywhere.
Right, yes.
what's the most bizarre fashiontrend you've ever rocked?
Well, I am a child of the
Michelle (39:54):
and then the last question I was going to ask you is, um, what's the most
bizarre fashion trend you've ever run?
80s bangs to, um, suddenly likingpunk music and I kind of like dyed
my hair reddish black for a while,which I went to Catholic girls school.
They didn't, they frowned
Stef (40:13):
didn't let that, like, they
Michelle (40:14):
coloring.
My younger sister shaved herhead, um, and that was super bad.
She had to wear a wig for a while.
Um, but mine was just colored and Ijust, uh, I just wore a lot of black and
a lot of black makeup, you know, like,
Stef (40:28):
I mean in the 80s it could have been a lot worse.
It
Michelle (40:31):
have been worse.
Well, I knew yeah, especially becauseI went from like the polo shirt girl
To like the all black girl when Iwas like polos and all that stuff at
14 and then at 15 I'm like no and I
Stef (40:42):
What are you talking about?
I've always been punk.
Michelle (40:44):
I Know No, I was never preppy
Stef (40:47):
I was born
Michelle (40:48):
Yeah, exactly.
So maybe yeah, so either fashion.
Those are probably the weirdestfashion trends I've ever Like I
know but everybody was doing it.
I mean
Stef (40:57):
are probably
Michelle (40:59):
I don't know, there's punk rockers everywhere
Stef (41:01):
the Oh, right!
That's the, oh, that's the funthing about that, that um...
Mentality is, especially when you'rea teenager, is like you think you're
rebelling, but, but you're surrounded bypeople who are all rebelling in the exact
Michelle (41:11):
Yeah.
Like I dated a guy who had amohawk, you know, I thought that
Stef (41:15):
that
Michelle (41:15):
so cool.
Oh yeah, mom and dad were just like,oh, you know, and you know, he had the
mohawk and the chains and all that.
And I thought he was so cute.
So I tried to match his style, you know.
But.
Yeah, unfortunately, I don'teven have any pictures from that
Stef (41:33):
Oh, that's tragic.
Michelle (41:34):
I know it's such a good time of my life,
Stef (41:37):
thank you so much for sitting down with me and making
the time to have this conversation.
I really appreciate
Michelle (41:41):
Yeah, you're welcome, I'm glad we could connect
Stef (41:44):
me too.
one of the things that is reallyinteresting to me at these kinds of events
is, the fact that we get to see all ofthe ways in which our lives are similar
and our communities are similar, even inthe state of Michigan, it's a big state
and it's very easy to find very differentkinds of communities, we do share a
lot so thank you so much for your time.
Michelle (42:02):
You're welcome.
Stef (42:05):
when I've been to the ALA convention, it's the
American Library Association.
it's a national convention.
It moves around every year.
it covers the full breadth of,anything related to libraries.
So every, every corner of that world.
Um, so it's huge.
it starts on Thursday, and it goes through
Cara (42:27):
Yeah,
Stef (42:28):
And by the time Monday morning comes around, and everybody's
frantically, cause they have a, theyalso have a post office on site.
Um, people can ship stuff backbecause one, yeah, that's my
Cara (42:42):
part of going
Stef (42:44):
to ALA is, Friday night is when they open the exhibition floor and
it's only available to people whohave full registration for the event.
And it's just a mad dash like I, I broughta cart with me this past year and I still
was that person who kept crashing into
Cara (43:01):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
That's San Diego Comic Conas soon as those doors open.
That's the one nice thing aboutbeing professional at those events,
Stef (43:08):
You get in
Cara (43:09):
I get in early.
And like, even if I don't necessarilywant to pick, like at conventions like
San Diego and everything else, peopleare dashing in and going straight to like
the Funko Pop booth and getting the likelimited collect releases and stuff like
that and I'm not interested in doing allof that but you know I still want to like
hit up other artists that I know are goingto be popular yeah because it gets bonkers
Stef (43:35):
Yeah, and at, at ALA, all of the major publishers, they just put stacks
of stuff that they have coming out inthe coming, like just mountains of it.
they just step back and theyjust let people grab stuff
and
Cara (43:50):
chaos.
Stef (43:50):
it is, but it's, it's, um, it's so much fun though.
I, like, I, yeah, it's so much fun.
I usually will end up with Probablya good hundred books the first night.
And that's, I probably would endup with more if I could carry more.
They give out tote bagstoo, but you know what?
When you've got six totebags full of books, it gets,
Cara (44:12):
so good.
Yeah.
uh, Black Canary, uh, came out withMeg Cabot, I begged DC to let me do ALA
and stuff, and I never got a chance,but I'm like, someday I'll do ALA.
Stef (44:22):
I mean, come on, DC, get it
Cara (44:24):
over with.
I know, I was
so bummed.
Stef (44:25):
the artists, too.
Cara (44:27):
know, that was the one bummer thing about, about that,
um, YA line that they did.
I loved doing it, um, I loved workingwith Meg, um, but with all of their books
across the board for that line, they werevery focused on promoting the writers,
which is fair because that was the bigdraw for them, was getting these big name,
(44:47):
writers like Kami Garcia,Meg, and all that.
Um, and then the artistsare like tiny little blooms
Stef (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, they're definitely selling it on the, on the writers.
But, I mean, I've seen some of themdo a little bit better about that.
Maybe not necessarily the,
core group of them.
But I can't remember whatbook they were promoting.
But there was a, um, A graphic title thatJason Reynolds had written at this, this
past year and the artist, which I willfully admit, I don't remember their name,
Cara (45:19):
It's a lot to keep track of.
Stef (45:20):
well, I'm just bad with names in general, but I, and
I was admittedly also in line.
So I could, I could, you know,drool over Jason Reynolds
Cara (45:28):
He's the coolest
Stef (45:29):
in the world.
but yeah, like I, I do feellike some of the non DC Marvel.
Publishers are maybejust a little bit better
about that.
Cara (45:38):
for sure,
Stef (45:38):
Um, and their, their boots are actually pretty
small at those events, too.
I think they are such a known quantitythat, like, they, it's a, it's a
little bit like, yeah, we're here.
I mean, you know we're here.
whereas you've got Scholastic that's got,
if you look at the map, they'rejust like, Twelve booths all, it's
Cara (45:57):
So it's the inverse of San Diego Comic Con, where like, because Scholastic
and, and like Random House and all thoseother publishers have booths at San
Diego Comic Con, but they're like, yeah,
Stef (46:10):
Right, they're the, yeah, they're the minority in that, that space, yeah,
Cara (46:14):
meanwhile Marvel has this huge stage and like this
Stef (46:17):
Right.
Cara (46:18):
usually an exhibit.
I once did a signing at, Ithink I was at Boom, um, doing a
signing for Over the Garden Wall
Stef (46:25):
Wall.
I love Boom Studios.
I, I will happily buy every, everysingle title that they put out.
Cara (46:31):
They're awesome.
They do put out great stuff.
but this one year I was doinga signing at their table at San
Diego was, um, the booth was rightacross from the Marvel booth.
And, um,
Stef (46:43):
That's a rough place to
Cara (46:44):
it was a rough place to be, especially because during the same time
I was signing, They had the cast ofGuardians of the Galaxy right across
from me.
So I was just likestaring at like Zoe's all
across the aisle,
Stef (46:58):
gonna stare at somebody exactly.
Cara (47:00):
Nobody's at my table.
They're all looking
Stef (47:03):
at Chris
Cara (47:04):
And I'm like, well, all right,
I'll
look
Stef (47:06):
and I'll pick, I'll pick Zoe over
Chris Pratt.
Like, he's okay.
I'm trying to
Cara (47:10):
to think there was, was it?
Oh my God.
I can't think of his name.
Lee Pace.
I think Lee Pace was there.
Oh.
What a, what a beautiful man.
That
that was another thing I used to doat San Diego Comic Con before I really
started doing, uh, my comics and stuffwas, for a while I was going as media.
Um, so I would do interviews and stufffor, uh, online news outlets and stuff.
(47:33):
So I got to interview celebrities every so
often
Stef (47:36):
Who was the most fun person you ever got to interview?
Cara (47:39):
Probably one of the nicest and chillest guys, who like, every
time you talk to him, you can justfeel how excited he is to be making
movies, was Guillermo del Toro.
Stef (47:50):
Oh yeah, I
Cara (47:51):
The coolest
guy.
I loved him.
I think that one stands out the most.
Stef (47:56):
most.
And he makes some prettyremarkable stuff, too.
I, get, he, he obviously gets to executehis creative vision a lot more clearly
than some, some people in that industry.
So I'm sure it's nice to be him.
Cara (48:11):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
He's kind of got it made
at this point.
.Yeah.
He's kind of got likethat blank check to do.
Right.
Whatever.
But
the
Stef (48:19):
so we've talked a lot about the more glamorous side of, of comics.
So do you want to, um, talk a littlebit about what that world looks
like to you on a more day to day?
what's a day in the life of a comic
Cara (48:30):
day
Stef (48:31):
of a freelance comic
Cara (48:33):
the life of a comic artist?
A freelance comic artist.
Neither of these have been announced,so I can't say what they are, but um,
the one that I've had for a while hasbeen great, because it's like a full
(48:53):
length graphic novel, and they've beenvery good about letting me take my time
on it, because I was suffering fromlike, really bad burnout last year,
Stef (49:00):
Oh, yeah.
Freelancing.
I can imagine like you, I'm extrapolatinghere, to be fair, I have friends who have
worked as creative freelancers beforesure there's a little bit of like, I
need to, I need to ride this wave whileI can so it doesn't crest and disappear.
So
Cara (49:17):
you have to chase that basically.
Um, so yeah, the one book has beengreat because I can take my time.
I'll do like chunks of rough sketchesof each page at a time and send them
in for approvals from the editors andwriters and wait for those before I go
in and do Um, Neater pencils, and thenget approvals for those, and then move
(49:41):
on to the, um, inking, the final inking.
they send it to somebody else forcoloring, if it needs color and lettering
because I like to color, but coloristsand comics don't get nearly enough
credit
because, oh my gosh, that coloringwill nine times out of ten carry.
an entire book, like it will make all the
(50:01):
difference.
Um, and I've worked with some reallyincredible colorists, so I'm excited to
see , what we do with, with these books.
Stef (50:08):
It's funny to think that so much of that creatively,
you know,
lives and dies with you, but thenat the end of the day, there's
this very final product thatyou're kind of just sending out,
Cara (50:20):
and
it's fun to see what it lookslike when I get it back.
the inverse of that nice, long, like,relaxed book that I've got doing, I got a
call from, Marvel a couple of weeks ago,and they needed just a fill in artist,
with a very, very tight deadline, thepages were actually due yesterday, but
I emailed and I was like, I am runningbehind because I had two weeks to do.
(50:44):
So, yeah.
An issue where usually that willyou'll get like at least a month or
two.
on an issue And so
Stef (50:51):
does that mean that because you're filling in For like, established
artwork, does that mean you have tobasically imitate an existing style,
Cara (51:00):
For this, luckily, no.
Uh, sometimes I'll ask artists to do that.
Um, there, there are artists thatspecifically are hired because
they're good at that kind of thing.
I am not one of those
Stef (51:11):
yeah, that would be tough I would imagine,
Cara (51:13):
it's, it's a very precise skill that I do not have.
when I was in college and in mytwenties, I could definitely knock
out a whole issue in a week or two.
No problem, whatever, Ican pull all nighters.
I'm learning now, as I approach 40,that I cannot do that so much anymore.
I'll get to about midnight, and I'm like,Oh, I need to go to bed, but I still have,
(51:33):
like, three pages I have to ink tonight.
So, the last week or so, I'vepretty much been running on,
like, Red Bull and Determination.
Stef (51:42):
Oh, yeah.
So.
Cara (51:44):
it's a lot.
It's definitely a lot.
And then, well, the nice thing,too, is it's not this, this
project is not a traditional
issue.
like a physical book.
It's their web format.
So it's the scrolling Webtoon style
format.
So it's not really broken intopages so much as, like, screens.
so it's a lot.
It's technically a little bit shorterthan a traditional issue would be, but
(52:08):
with the web format, it's interestingbecause you have to think about
it in a completely different way.
Oh,
yeah.
Because usually I'm thinking aboutlike how page turns will look and like
the pacing of like when you're lookingat a page and with the scrolling web
format, I have to be thinking about howyou're reading on your phone and like
what's
Stef (52:28):
How much is visible in like a panel on the screen, yeah.
Cara (52:32):
and with this issue too, in particular, I'll have to like show you
when it comes out because a lot of it is.
heavily relies on the narrative ofscrolling down like there's literally
like a character is falling out of an
airplane the whole
issue so it's just her
Stef (52:52):
Oh, that's fascinating.
What an interesting idea.
Cara (52:55):
So it's, it's, it's been an interesting challenge.
So it's, luckily, again, like,since the deadline's so tight, I
have very little I have to drawin terms of, like, environments,
which is usually the hardest part.
It's like drawing intricatebackgrounds and stuff.
This, I'm like, clouds everywhere.
So that's nice.
(53:15):
Exactly.
Like, it's gotta get done.
Stef (53:18):
this to me just underscores that much more like I, tend to get on the
soapbox when it comes to stuff likethis, especially with parents a lot
of parents are starting to get it, butthere is still so much stigma with,
with adults who were, you know, who grewup before this was a format that was,
that was, people were familiar with.
And now, um, Especially, as is informedby like, what the standards are set in
(53:41):
the schools, there's very like, well, youknow, comic reading is extra reading, but
Cara (53:47):
then it's
Stef (53:47):
do the real reading in the classroom and real reading
apparently doesn't have visuals.
I don't know why, which is socounterintuitive because they
read picture books forever.
So I don't know
Cara (53:57):
why,
Stef (53:58):
why suddenly that becomes stigmatized.
It really links back to thatconcept that, like, there are
multiple forms of literacy.
there's what we think of in terms of, likereading sentences on a page and, fluency
of language and all that and everythingthat we learn in schools from that aspect.
But visual literacy is very
Cara (54:17):
Oh, yeah.
Stef (54:18):
it, it fires things in your brain and, if kids do not learn that, it can
alter how they experience things too.
and if you want your kid to be likean engineer later on, they need to
be able to visually and spatiallyprocess things and that's, and
(54:39):
that's something that's got getsunderscored by that sort of experience.
So.
Cara (54:43):
It, it, yeah, if you have, like, one of the most famous comic book
illustrators of all time, um, Will Eisner.
the Oscars of comics are
named after
him.
because He
was so influential and he, he didlike, um, I'm not going to think of
the Contract with God and, and, um,The Spirit and all of these really
amazing comic titles that, that he did.
(55:04):
read, like, literature.
But then also, you know,you talk about engineering.
He used to illustrate, um, the,the mechanic manuals for the army
during World War II and stuff.
And so he has that range of,being able to do comics, but also
these, detailed, like, beautiful,
honestly, like, mechanical illustrations.
(55:25):
And so, like, Yeah, you can't just,like, it's easy to lump all, like,
comic art together, but it's so broadand, like, Yeah, it's fascinating,
honestly, when you really look into it.
Stef (55:37):
we should culturally give that a lot more credit.
I think there's this goofy assumptionthat because it's not something that
you quote unquote learn to do, that it'snot, it doesn't have the same value.
there are things that your brain isdoing that you don't even know that it's
doing, but you still want them to do it.
Like you want, you want your brain to beable, and really phenomenal artists, part
(56:00):
of what they do is they, like, they breakdown how a person is going to, how to take
this in, how they're going to perceive it,what, what's going to catch the eye first,
and like, yeah, and how you take it in.
And they, you know, they,
Cara (56:16):
Yeah,
that's
the biggest part of my job as a comicartist is making sure I can very clearly
demonstrate what the writer wants to showin a comic page and like, make sure that
the reader can understand what's going on.
Like, I'll, I'll get comic scriptsthat are like, it'll be frustrating
(56:37):
because the script will saysomething like, in this panel,
Turns around and sees so and so and thenjumps out of the window, and I'm like, Oh
no, that's like five panels that I have todraw because that's more than one action
and more than one person And
If I tried to cram so much informationinto just one panel, the reader's not
gonna know what the heck is going on.
(56:57):
Nobody's gonna want
Stef (56:58):
is huge, yeah.
Cara (57:01):
exactly.
there's a lot more thought that goesinto the layout of a comic page than
I think a lot of people realize.
Stef (57:08):
and just to put in a plug, you are doing a program for our teenage group
in April, talking about, um, how, well,
yeah,
Cara (57:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I want to, like, show teenagerspretty much the process of what goes
into making a comic page, like, fromgetting the script to, like, breaking
it down all that, so I'll try to cramas much information in there as I can.
Stef (57:35):
can.
Hey, and if you're, if this is a subjectthat interests you and you are not
a teen, um, definitely let us know.
Cause, um, as I said,we're comic nerds here too.
I'm sure, like, we would happilyLet her do a whole session with
just a staff and not invite anybody
Cara (57:51):
else
Uh huh.
Um,
Stef (57:53):
if it's something that you would like to hear more about beyond
the Lengthy conversations we keephaving because I you know, why not?
Let us know because I think it wouldbe fun for us to do More programming
around this and as long as we cankeep her in the building, we might
as well take advantage of her,
Cara (58:08):
her
Stef (58:10):
All right, thank you so much Cara for sitting down with me and
as you know As I so often do, Ijust put you on the spot and made
you sit down with me impromptu.
Cara (58:18):
me impromptu.
for
being
Stef (58:19):
so open and understanding
Cara (58:21):
about it.
Stef (58:22):
Um, have fun at, at Emerald City.
Um, hopefully your flight doesn't getcanceled and everything goes smoothly.
And, um, hopefully you don'thave a gigantic migraine at
the end of the weekend, but
Cara (58:35):
Knock on wood.
Yeah.
Stef (58:36):
yeah.
Um, okay.
all right.
Take care.
I am Steph Reed.
I am the Director of theFlat River Community Library
Cara (00:20):
I'm Cara McGee.
I work at the Circulation Desk.
Michelle (00:25):
I am Michelle Howard and I am the Library Director
at the Traverse Area DistrictLibrary in Traverse City, Michigan.
Cory (00:34):
Welcome to the Flat River Front Porch.
Stef (00:39):
I've just been thinking this whole time that Sharon is
Cara (00:41):
time
Stef (00:41):
I'm turning you into one person.
I don't know faces or names.
I just, I just sit in my office and type
things.
Cara (00:48):
in my office
spreadsheets
Stef (00:51):
all day.
you don't want to host this time?
Cara (00:53):
I'm good.
Stef (00:54):
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
You're not the performer, apparently.
So, I am once again, having theopportunity to, to geek out with
our, our resident comic gal.
Comic gal, yes.
with Kara.
And so I'll go ahead andintroduce yourself again.
Again.
Cara (01:10):
Again, again.
I'm Cara McGee.
I work at the Circulation Deskhere, not to be confused with
Cara, um, who also works up there.
Stef (01:17):
there.
Eventually you're notgoing to have to say that
anymore.
I,
Cara (01:20):
say that anymore.
I know!
feel like we're pretty easyto tell apart because I'll
have
weird
Stef (01:24):
look anything alike, definitely.
Um, it's, yeah, it's in name only.
You
Cara (01:30):
are,
Stef (01:30):
you
are not
twinsies.
We've
Cara (01:33):
I mean, comics bring us together.
As
Stef (01:43):
Well, I mean, comics bring
us
Cara (01:45):
talked about before, we
Stef (01:51):
we've talked about before, we are big, hardcore comic people, generally
speaking, so you found a good home,
Cara (01:57):
definitely.
Stef (01:58):
there's never any shortage of comic stuff to talk about.
Um, so what's, what's new in your world?
Cara (02:05):
Lots, I feel like there's a lot going on right now,
especially, particularly right now.
I'm getting ready, uh, to fly outto Seattle for Emerald City Comic
Con, uh, this coming weekend.
It's probably my biggest show of theyear, um, other than like San Diego
Comic Con, which I don't table at usually
if I, if I ever go, causeit's a very overwhelming
(02:27):
show.
Stef (02:28):
so that's, so what do you typically
Cara (02:30):
then?
At San Diego, I will, um, if I havenew stuff coming out that year, I will
usually go to my publisher's table andhave like a signing um, or whatever their
scheduled signing or um, whatever else.
I'll do panels every so often, um,but for the most part I just, it's the
one con where I get to actually walk
(02:52):
around and enjoy it.
It's like way
Stef (02:55):
enjoy it.
I've gone to other, events wherethere's been, exhibition floors, and
I've done table work before, and it is
Cara (03:07):
monotonous,
It is a grind.
Yeah.
Stef (03:10):
So,
it's, it's the day job of comic
Cara (03:13):
Honestly, Yeah,
Yeah, basically, it wasuntil I started working here.
It was like the one time amonth I would get out of the
house and interact with people.
you know, living in Greenville,especially where I am, um, where
my neighbors are limited, I guess.
It's, it's nice to, like, go to theconventions and talk to, like, hundreds,
if not thousands, of people over threeor four days and then come back here
(03:36):
and, like, hide in the woods, basically.
Stef (03:39):
Be reminded from time to
time what the boundaries oftypical human conversation is.
when you have those moments whereYou finish saying something and the
other person is just sitting there
trying to absorb whatever youjust said and you have that
moment you're like, Oh, right.
Okay.
So there's that boundary
Cara (03:57):
Yeah.
Like, am I talking like a normal person?
Right.
Stef (04:00):
Yeah.
You have to
be reminded from time to time, I suppose.
I'm curious, I don't know if youknow the answer to this, is there
a particular reason why Seattleis called Emerald City Con?
Cara (04:10):
Um, Seattle, I don't know the reason for it, but I know the
nickname for Seattle is the Emerald
City.
Stef (04:17):
well that's just my lack of cultural
Cara (04:20):
knowledge
Stef (04:20):
okay.
I
Cara (04:21):
And I only knew that, you know, after I'd been doing the
con for a
Stef (04:24):
never been west of, of
Cara (04:26):
Oh
Stef (04:26):
Wait, is
that true?
No, I think technically Mesa Verde
was
the
farthest
west, but
that's still Colorado.
Um, so yeah,
Cara (04:35):
that's,
I love Mesa
Stef (04:36):
yeah, I'm very excited because I'm going to the ALA in San Diego this
year.
And that's going to
Cara (04:40):
be my official,
Stef (04:41):
official finally hitting that west coast.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I'ma Midwesterner by birth.
Cara (04:48):
I love Seattle.
Um, one of my favorite things about doingthis convention and one of the reasons
I do it every year, other than it's areally good show, is it's like right
down the street from Pike's Place Market,
which is, like, where they
do the fish throwing and all that.
The food there is so good.
Oh my gosh.
I, I, I'm already in my head.
I have a list of things I knowI want to eat while I'm in
(05:10):
Seattle.
Stef (05:11):
you ship stuff back?
Cara (05:12):
Every so often.
Every so often.
Um, I know this year I'mprobably gonna have to.
Usually I can stuff, stuffin my luggage and come back.
But I have a lot of newmerchandise and products and stuff
Stef (05:23):
Oh, yeah.
Cara (05:24):
So I have no idea what it's gonna look like traveling back.
But I have a feeling I might have to.
Ship some stuff home.
Stef (05:32):
I feel like there's that
scarcity economy that comes withstuff like that, that you're
like, in the moment, you're like,
I'm
going to want this in a month.
I'm going to wish that I had eaten this.
So I need to, I need toget all of this right now.
Cara (05:45):
Yeah, and I, I've been very bad about that in the past because I do
travel a lot and one of the things I liketo do or pick up whenever I travel is
Get regional foods and stuff like that.
I'm a sucker for that.
But then the problem is, is I get veryprecious about it and I feel like I
hoard it and then I never use it and thestuff will go bad before I can use it
(06:06):
because I'm like, no, it's too good tolike just use it casually and I'm trying
to be better about that instead of likesaving things for special occasions.
I'm just like So
Stef (06:17):
what
kind of, what kind of stuff are yougetting that you're being precious
Cara (06:20):
are you getting that you're being precious about?
Stef (06:26):
Something
that you're not just sittingdown with a jar of it and just
eating it with a spoon, that
sort of thing.
Cara (06:31):
down with a jar of it and just eating it with a spoon.
Like cherry queso, and I've justbeen like working my way through
that the last couple of days.
I'm like, I eat thisand not just let it sit.
Stef (06:56):
too many things that we can get really excited about and it stops
being like, uh, what I'm picturing islike Little House on the Prairie and
oh, I got an orange for Christmas.
What a, what a delight.
And then, I mean, is not an exactcorrelation because it was still
in Grand Rapids, but I went to,to downtown market with my family,
on Saturday and downtown market.
(07:18):
They, you know, it's.
All of these different
like food
vendors
and stuff like that.
So I was like, oh I need toget croissants Oh, I need to
Cara (07:26):
get I need
Stef (07:26):
to get
pastries.
I need to get soda.
I need to get like all,you know, X, Y, and Z.
and then you get all these perishablefoods and you're like, okay, well
I need to stuff all of these intomy face right now because otherwise
they're not going to get eaten.
It's like, oh, I just ate 4, 000 calories.
Cara (07:42):
Exactly, I do that.
Again, yeah, this is me.
Anytime I go to a city I'm familiar with
for a convention,
like later this year, I'mgoing to Atlanta for another
convention.
And I lived in Atlanta for ten years, so Ihave this whole, I know the Hans, I've got
all this, these places I need to go backto and stock up on food at and like get
(08:02):
all my old favorite things from college.
And the dangerous thing about Atlantais they, there's this place down there
called the DeKalb Farmer's Market.
It's this huge, like, warehousesized, like, international grocery
market with, like, fresh, like, exoticfruits and spices and seafood and,
like, this huge, beautiful, like,international bakery inside of it.
(08:24):
And I literally will just, like,at, after the con, before I, like,
because I drive to this convention
specifically
to Load up at this market on allthese like breads and like they've
got this really great like Europeanstyle deli So I'll like grab
like Russian style salamis and cured meatsand stuff and I'm like, this is fine.
(08:46):
This is normal
Stef (08:47):
Yeah, like, tourist eating, eating like a tourist, and, Approaching it as
like, I have to do this all right now.
It's a dangerous thing.
And it reaches the pointof not being fun anymore,
Cara (08:58):
Yeah, because you put a lot of pressure on yourself.
It's like, if I, you know, I'm goingto regret it if I go and I don't eat
this and this and this and like, IThere was a patron in here actually
the other day, um, we were, we got totalking and she's from the Philippines
originally, and I love Filipino food.
And one of the things I'm very excitedabout getting while I'm in Seattle
(09:19):
this weekend is there's a little stallin Pike's Market that does, um, a
salmon, uh, sinigang soup, which islike this tamarind based, like, rice,
vegetable soup.
It's like Very, very distinctive flavors.
And
I,
I've had it like a couple of timesand it's been years since I've had it.
(09:40):
And I've been thinking about this
soup for
Stef (09:43):
yeah.
And it will never live upto your expectations, too.
Cara (09:46):
But I'm still gonna be real excited to go get it.
I hope it lives up to my expectations.
Stef (09:52):
Yeah, it's funny how food can, like, leave sense memories like this.
I can still mentally sort of, like,taste this really amazing stew that
I had in one of the hiking huts inthe Alps at one point, it was one
of those places where they don'thave, they don't have water heaters.
in order to get supplies andstuff brought to the, location.
(10:15):
They have like baskets
Cara (10:17):
Oh my gosh!
Stef (10:18):
cause they literally they are like an hour hike,
Cara (10:21):
Wow.
That's incredible.
Stef (10:23):
but they had, Such good food there.
and
I think I was even a vegetarian when I
had It but
I broke it just because I'm justlike, I, I need to experience this.
yeah, and oh my gosh, that was 20years ago and I can still remember it.
Cara (10:39):
I tell you what, one of my literal earliest memories, um,
I lived in Germany as a littlekid because my dad was military.
And so
probably,
Stef (10:49):
Oh my gosh, it's
Cara (10:50):
it's so good.
And I vividly remember being at like maybea New Year's celebration or something.
I just remember my parents, we, wewent to like this fancy party at a
hotel for New Year's And they servedthis like Strawberry dessert that was
almost like a creamy Jell O pudding
(11:11):
consistency.
Very, very specificflavor and consistency.
And I was probably like four or five.
And this has stuck in my
head
for like decades.
And I've literally been chasing thatflavor this whole, like, for years.
Stef (11:26):
Did you ever figure out what it
Cara (11:27):
I'm still, I'm still, trying to figure it out.
Every time I'm at, like, a Europeanstyle market or anything, I
will, like, grab whatever, like,instant pudding mixes or jello
mixes or
Stef (11:37):
probably doesn't even exist.
Cara (11:38):
It probably doesn't, it might've just been, like, something I, like,
my young mind came up with, or,like, maybe it was specific to that
hotel or something, is it, like, aBlanc, Blanc Mange, or I don't know.
I'm determined someday to figure out.
Stef (11:52):
like,
German pastry school to go
Cara (11:57):
to
I
Stef (11:58):
to, to, to learn the full breadth of, of,
Cara (12:00):
of the Yeah,
Stef (12:06):
that's what it sounds like.
Which is funny because you don't typicallythink of Germany as like a dessert.
Cara (12:12):
Yeah,
and it, it, it is possible that itwasn't even in Germany, honestly,
Stef (12:16):
because
Cara (12:17):
we, you know,
Europe is so different, um, that youcan just take a, like, a few hour
drive and be in a different country.
And my, I know my parents used to do that.
We used to, like, drive aroundEurope and just explore and stuff.
Stef (12:31):
And I'm guessing that this did not have the same impression on them.
It's not like you couldask your mom, like, do
Cara (12:36):
you
I've asked her, she's like, I haveno idea what you're talking about.
And I'm like, yeah, I was,you know, I think I was just
at the right age at the time.
Yeah.
That it like
cemented
Stef (12:46):
It was probably just, like, pudding.
Cara (12:49):
Yeah, . Exactly.
Exactly.
But I, it was so good.
Someday I'll figure it out andI'll be so happy then I can
die.
Stef (12:58):
that I can die.
this is a really nerdy connection tomake, but, um, it's kind of like when you
read books as a child, like, and when youform, like, really strong attachments to
something that you, um, that you reallyenjoyed reading when you were young, um,
there's no point rereading it at a, aftera certain age because at that, like,
at a certain point, you're just like,I'm never going to feel the way that
(13:21):
I did when I read this the first time.
usually, Food doesn't have thatsort of emotional response, but
Cara (13:29):
Sometimes.
it's funny that you mention a book,having that response because I think
like something similar actuallyhappened to me on desk the other day.
Oh yeah.
Like somebody had brought back astack of kids books and including
like the older Arthur books.
Um
Stef (13:44):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Cara (13:45):
And I never read those books as a kid, but the illustration style look.
It's just like a book that I rememberhaving read over and over, like,
in my mind, but it was like about arabbit with like a brand new carpet.
Stef (13:58):
It
Cara (13:58):
So, a very specific kid's book.
And I sat on, like, at the computerand I was like, this has got to be
the same illustrator that did that.
Book
Stef (14:08):
Mark Brown,
Cara (14:08):
right?
I think so, yeah.
Yep.
And yeah, after some GooglingI realized, yeah, it was him
illustrating a different writer and Iwas like, thank God that just didn't,
wasn't like the pudding to certain,I didn't like imagine this book.
I
was like, Well, and but I thought aboutyears until I saw that book come through
Stef (14:26):
those books were so popular.
I have to imagine that there was some.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just like there is now in children'sliterature, there's a, there's
some imitation that can come
Cara (14:36):
um, Right.
Stef (14:36):
when particular illustrators have really popular books of the
things that's really interestingto me we talked a little bit about
clickiness in the publishing industry.
And I think there's a little bitof that with children's books now
too, that like there's,
they all sort of know each otherand sometimes, author illustrators
will illustrate their own books,sometimes they won't, sometimes they'll
illustrate other people's books,sometimes they'll just write the,
(15:00):
prose, and then somebody else will.
It's
Cara (15:02):
fascinating.
It's, yeah,
it's bizarre.
I don't have as much, like, I'mnot into that side of publishing
as much as I used to be.
Like, I was saying earlier, Iused to hang out with a lot of,
YA and fantasy writers and stuff at
conventions.
Um, and, and not so much anymore.
Just because, like, I feellike this is every industry.
There's just so many cliques.
(15:23):
And like, you do get like the, thealmost middle school, high school
mentality almost with amongst them.
And it gets exhausting.
And I'm like, I can't,I'm too old for this.
I just wanted to draw comic books.
Stef (15:37):
books.
I wonder if part their core audience, too.
I, all of the.
Um, the children's authors andillustrators that I have, um,
that I've had contact with, thatI've, you know, been able to have
personal interactions with, theirvibe is much more like, this is just
Cara (16:00):
Exactly.
And
that's who you want.
Yeah,
that's
who you want to work with, isjust people who are making books.
Not so much because they'relooking at what's popular and
what their peers are doing.
They're like, oh, so and so is making abook like this, so I've got to make sure
I can have something to go against that.
You want to be, you want tocollaborate with people who are
(16:21):
doing it for the joy of doing it, for
telling stories.
Stef (16:24):
and
they get to do such fun stuff,
Cara (16:26):
Exactly.
Stef (16:27):
There's this really phenomenal, um, he occasionally will write his own books,
but he's primarily known for illustration.
his name is Christian Robinson andhe has this very distinctive, um,
style where he does a lot of, sortof found object art where a lot,
it's sort of like paper piecing arts.
It's very,
it's, it's, three dimensional
Cara (16:45):
basically.
Stef (16:46):
his work is really, it's gorgeous and, um, so it's definitely worth
checking out, but, when I've interactedwith him at conventions and stuff, he's
just, he's so sweet and he always seemslike he's in a really good mood and
like, yeah, I, I feel like, they getthe more positive side of, of that world
such as it is, but, um, I, I have afeeling that working with teenagers kind
Cara (17:13):
of
tends to
Stef (17:14):
to bring out a different side maybe a little bit, but.
Cara (17:17):
little bit, but.
Who knows?
It's, it's interesting.
Like, my personal experience doingYA middle grade books and stuff
has always been super positive.
Like, that's one of the best feelings islike having a young reader come to you
specifically at a
Stef (17:35):
absolutely.
Yeah,
the kids aren't the problems.
It's the adults.
That's my mantra.
That's
Cara (17:40):
Oh, 100%.
100%.
Stef (17:42):
The kids, yeah, they're not causing the trouble.
It's when you bring the grown upsinto the room that the real trouble
Cara (17:47):
Yeah.
Stef (17:48):
Okay.
a pin in that.
let's go ahead and transitionto our interview for this week.
this is going to be alittle bit different.
we're thinking outside the box here.
we're redefining a little bit what, um,what community means and what, uh, what
our community entails and how big it gets.
Our circle is bigger this week and,the person that I interviewed for
(18:09):
this one was actually the very firstinterview that I did in anticipation
of starting this podcast, and I'vehad this in my pocket since October.
and I met this person at theMichigan Library Association
annual conference this year.
she really is a perfect example of Howyou make your community and your circle
bigger, and how you get out of your,your silo, your, your small circle that
(18:33):
we live in from day to day, and, andhow we expand that and how we include
a wider range of people around us.
she has a great story of, ofdoing exactly that, of thinking of
outside the box in her community.
our guest today, is actually thelibrary director for the Traverse Area
District Library System Michelle Howard.
(18:54):
So thank you very much forbeing my very first interview
thank you so much for joiningme for this so tell me who you
are and where we can find you.
Michelle (19:07):
I am Michelle Howard and I am the Library Director
at the Traverse Area DistrictLibrary in Traverse City, Michigan.
we have one of the most unusual systems inthe state where we have the main library,
we have two branch libraries, and thenwe have three member libraries that all
have their own boards and own directors.
Stef (19:27):
Okay.
That sounds complicated.
Michelle (19:28):
is so complicated we kind of all follow the same rules, but not always
and we The main library act basically isthe fiduciary and we give them money every
year and then they spend it how they want
Stef (19:43):
Okay.
Michelle (19:43):
But we have a shared ILS So
Stef (19:46):
Which doesn't mean a whole lot to most communities,
Michelle (19:49):
but yeah
Stef (19:50):
means that we keep all of our books in a logical place together.
Michelle (19:53):
Yes.
And basically patrons can go to anyof the six locations and they have no
idea about the structure behind it.
They just can use their card atany of 'em and that's perfect.
Stef (20:04):
it's yeah, it's the beauty behind the curtain
Michelle (20:05):
Yes.
Works.
Stef (20:06):
That's that's all that matters Your library has experienced in recent
times a very different kind of challengethat maybe, maybe someone wouldn't
necessarily associate with libraries.
Um, and that your infrastructure sortof wasn't prepared to handle initially.
So can you tell us a little bit aboutwhat happened with your library?
Michelle (20:26):
So, we, had a, Evening shelter for unhoused individuals open
about two blocks from the library.
Um, and while we had always had incidentsin the past, we, um, were not prepared
for an over 200 percent increase inincidents, and incidents that were
more violent, that were drug related,and that were directed at staff.
(20:49):
Threats to staff, insults to staff,and what we ended up seeing is that our
regular patrons telling us and tellingother places like our branches and members
that they won't come to our main libraryanymore because they don't feel safe.
So we had to do something.
we were trained in empathy based training.
Um, we tried our best to be nice and tobe kind to people, but in the end, we,
(21:14):
we, meaning me and luckily the boarddecided that something had to be done.
So we started to, contract witha security company, so we had
security personnel in the library.
We changed our policies to be lesslenient because we found out people
were taking advantage of that leniencyand Then our board wrote a letter
(21:38):
to the community asking for help
Stef (21:40):
So, um, to step back a little bit, can you tell us a little bit more
about what your staff was experiencing?
what sort of incidents they had to,um, had to grapple with and how they
handled that, how it affected them?
So I think too, I should saythat we're in Northern Michigan
Michelle (21:55):
a and it's cold and the day shelter closes at 8 a.
m.
And they kick everybody out,the night shelter closes at 8 a.
m.
They kick everybody out and they justhave to find a place to be until it opens
back up at about quarter to six at night.
And a lot of our services has closed.
Due to the pandemic.
So places they used to stay warm likethe bus terminal, um, were closed.
(22:18):
Um, so there was really no placefor them to go but the library.
So what we saw was, bodily fluidsthat we had not really seen before.
people coming in, eating,just leaving garbage all over.
And then when the staff would ask themto clean up, you know, being verbally
assaulted, um, people having sex inour bathrooms, people doing drugs in
(22:40):
our bathrooms, people selling drugs.
people passed out drunk.
Um, so staff would try to wakethem up and they would just be
greeted by a barrage of swear words.
it was just like that day afterday, hour after hour in the library.
Um, because a lot of these peoplehave trauma and they also hadn't
(23:00):
probably been to a library before anddidn't really understand the rules.
and they really couldn't understandwhy we wouldn't allow drugs
and alcohol in the library.
Or at least that's what they told us.
Stef (23:10):
hmm.
Um,
Michelle (23:12):
really hard.
I was the same because I tend to handlea lot of them because I'm the director.
I'm the only one who can suspend somebody.
Um, so every day I dreaded cominginto work because I didn't know
what was going to happen that day.
I, I had someone.
verbally assault me and thenthreatened to take my life.
Um, because him and his girlfriendwere in the bathroom together.
(23:35):
And I was kicking them outand they didn't like it.
Um, so it was just, it was thosetypes of things day after day.
It just wore us down.
Stef (23:44):
Yeah, that's that's understandable.
and that's obviously wellbeyond what your average library
staff member is prepared for.
We're not really trained for it.
I know you brought this to your boardwhen you sort of hit your breaking point.
Um, and there is one particular boardmember that it really resonated with.
Could you speak a little bit about that?
Michelle (24:05):
Sure.
So I have a board of likea lot of retired educators.
and she's one of our newest board members.
Mary Lee Pikeser is a nurse practitionerand she currently works in the jails.
doing health care for the jails.
And so when she heard about, you know,someone standing up and urinating in
the middle of our lobby and all theother stuff, she sees that every day.
(24:30):
Um, but she She's trained on that.
And that's what she said islike listening to my voice.
The other thing with nursing is theytalk a lot about moral distress.
And that's where a person feels like theywant to make a change, but they can't.
And that's what a lot of our staffwas feeling is moral distress
because we wanted to help people.
(24:51):
But this is not a problem that justa librarian being nice can fix.
This is a societal problem.
Stef (24:57):
staff was feeling, was moral distress.
Because we
Michelle (24:59):
Other people have to help it.
It just couldn't be us.
And we couldn't, you know, forher, she couldn't watch the library
Stef (25:05):
wants to come and fix.
Michelle (25:06):
go into a place where nobody wants to come in.
and that really resonated with herand her experience in the jails.
And she had worked withpatients with addiction.
And so she just knewsomething had to be done.
And she was the one who said, we'renot going to be the board that sits
and just goes, Oh, I'm sorry, Michelle.
We're going to do something andthat's how the letter came about.
So can you talk a little bit about
Stef (25:25):
I'm sorry, Michelle.
We're going to do something, andthat's how the letter came to be.
Sure, so the letter basically told
Michelle (25:33):
the letter?
Sure, so the letter basically toldpeople what was happening in the
library because most people didn't know.
Unless you came into the mainlibrary, um, you didn't see it.
And so it first informed the communityabout the violence towards...
And the situation of drugsand alcohol in the library.
Um, so we addressed that, whatwas happening with our staff.
(25:53):
And then it asked thecommunity to respond.
It asked for, um, people to cometogether to form a coalition to,
um, Help people who are unhoused.
We can't do it at the library.
We need a day shelter.
We didn't have a day shelter We had anight shelter it asked the Traverse City
Police Department to assign a communityofficer specifically to our area and
Stef (26:17):
our area.
Michelle (26:17):
third was that people would look at opening a day shelter.
there's a lot more details to the letter.
Um, but basically we called thecommunity out to say this is not
a problem we can fix, but this isa problem we're having to address.
Let's try to fix this together.
So we sent it to all the churches,the, all the municipal governments,
townships, county, city, andwe, um, did press releases.
(26:42):
So we had news crews in the libraryand we had, um, reporters from the
newspaper coming in because really a lotof people didn't know how bad it was.
Stef (26:51):
reporters from the newspaper coming in, because really a lot of people didn't
Michelle (27:02):
wanted to,
Stef (27:03):
Make it clear and, and, and not candy coat.
This was a real issue that youcouldn't sweep under the rug anymore.
and that it really required,community participation.
can you speak a little bit about, howyou put together collaborations with
the other community organizationshow that all came together.
(27:24):
Yeah, so it worked out greatthat people just stepped up.
Michelle (27:25):
those those collaborations
Stef (27:26):
a church that had a day shelter
Michelle (27:27):
with the pandemic and they had closed and they stepped
up and said, You know what?
We're gonna open our day shelter,but we need help finding money.
Um, the evening sheltersaid, You know what?
We're gonna open on weekends.
We didn't realize.
even though.
I think some of them did realize.
I think they also just it's hard.
They're nonprofits.
It's hard to find money.
It's hard to find volunteersto help keep people warm.
(27:50):
but they said, we're going to step up.
It's not right for thisto happen to the library.
The city government is steppedup to city of Traverse City.
Our county did not But the city ofTraverse City said, you know, we've got
ARPA funds Let's try to use that money forthe shelter And then the biggest thing was
the police department had been thinkingabout a social worker So they assigned
(28:12):
a community police officer to our areaWhere the shelter is where we are and
where the new day shelter would be andthey hired a social worker So now when
they are confronted with someone who'shaving trouble, alcohol, addiction, not
only does a police officer show up, butsometimes a police officer steps away,
(28:33):
and the social worker steps in to try toget that person those resources they need.
Stef (28:37):
can you provide a little bit more about, for people who
might not be aware, what a socialworker can do in those situations?
Michelle (28:44):
Sure.
So the social worker was someone whowas already established in our community
and they know the community resources.
So we at one point had a young familycoming to the library every day.
Uh, we found out they were unhoused.
The social worker could meet withthem, help them fill out the forms.
Help them, um, apply for differenttypes of financial resources, food
(29:08):
resources, you know, all these things.
It really is a guide tohelping people find their way.
Connect to those resources that areout there that they might not know
and might not even know to ask.
And so that's not really anythingthe library staff is trained in.
The social worker also helped talk toour staff that was so stressed out.
You know, and they just give you ideasfor how to take care of yourself.
(29:32):
You know, we, I gave journals to allof our leadership committee, um, to
try to, Help people like write downwhat you're feeling, meet with our
social worker, but they really are aliaison between the person and the state
that they're in and what services areavailable and they can even deescalate.
Um, you know, we had a patronshow up for months in hospital.
(29:54):
They had brought, beenbrought there by ambulance.
Um, they didn't know howthey were getting home.
You know, the hospitalkind of released them.
And they somehow made theirway from the hospital to the
library, which is about a mile.
Um, and they were just hangingout in the library all day.
Well, we called the social workerwho showed up, who found out what
was happening, how we could getthem back to their home, which was
(30:16):
an hour away, and it was a success.
That person spent one night in theevening shelter, and then got a ride home.
So these are the things that socialworkers can do that, that really, really
make a big impact on the community.
And That is a really nice
Stef (30:32):
workers can do that really, really make a big impact on people.
Michelle (30:36):
um, into,
Stef (30:40):
To people who are on house.
I think for a lot of people, it'slike, it's just such a big issue and
there's so many factors that it'seasy for people to feel like they
just don't want to deal with it.
And especially when it comes to addictionthere's a blame that comes in, into
the equation and then people have aharder time finding empathy and that.
and it seems to me that it'salmost easier to try to.
(31:02):
sidestep the empathy issue and justcome at it from a more practical
angle like that and, and recognizethat there are people who are better
equipped to, to handle these things.
And, and that there can be a practicalvalue to having that as a resource.
Michelle (31:17):
hmm.
Yeah, I think empathy only goes so far.
Yeah.
And...
It's exhausting.
It
Stef (31:26):
empathy that, you know, day to day life even can require sometimes.
Michelle (31:30):
sometimes your patrons don't remember your empathy from the day
before because they were intoxicatedor over, you know, or really high.
And so they just come in the next dayand they're like, what do you mean?
I was a jerk.
And I was, you know,
Stef (31:43):
Right.
These are, and these are people with realhealth issues where that significantly
impact how they behave and, and theyfeel unsafe a lot of the time as well.
to what extent do you think thissituation is unique to your community?
how much do you think, people inother communities should be aware
that these things are potentiallyhappening in their own backyard?
Michelle (32:02):
I, I think homelessness is in a lot of places and addiction
is absolutely in a lot of places.
It's just nobody wants to talk about it.
if you open your eyesto it, then you'll see.
It is there.
I think, unlike Traverse City, where we,it tends to be a hub of people, coming to
Traverse City, um, and we have resources.
There's a lot of communitiesthat don't have any resources.
(32:26):
And so the, I think they'rea little bit more hidden.
Um, but if you talk to yourhealthcare workers, if you talk to
your police, there's probably peopleliving in their cars all over.
Um, you know, and The more we can talkabout it, the more people might recognize
what's going on, and try to form thesecoalitions that can actually help people.
Stef (32:45):
So do you have any recommendations for a community
trying to have this conversationbefore you reach that breaking point?
Where do you think a good place tostart for something like that would be?
Michelle (32:53):
Well, and I think the library is a great place.
Stef (32:56):
Yeah.
Michelle (32:57):
You know, hold a community forum, have a panel.
Um, invite your school social workersbecause we know there's tons of homeless
kids out there that are couch surfers.
Um, Invite your police, invite yourschool social workers, um, invite
your churches, you know, becauseI think they do a lot of care.
A lot of churches have foodpantries and they see that point
of contact, Oh wow, that person'scar suddenly has all their stuff in
Stef (33:21):
They're homeless, they're sick
Michelle (33:22):
They're homeless, they're sleeping, you know, and I, and I
think that was a good place to startto just have that conversation.
Um, and I think the biggest thing,especially with addiction, um, is, you
know, inviting I Any sort of medicalprofessionals would deal with it because
it's that stigma that kills people.
When you're hiding youraddiction away, people die.
Stef (33:42):
Right, right.
Michelle (33:43):
if we can talk about it, it just breaks down that stigma that it's
someone else's problem or, you know,
Stef (33:51):
have addiction.
And
Michelle (33:52):
they're losers, that's why they have addiction.
And so having those communityconversations I think will help.
So people realize, oh, it is aproblem and maybe we can help, you
know, instead of like having peoplehide their problems away, if we can
help, like that's a win for everyone.
Stef (34:09):
problems away, if we can help, like, that's a win for everyone.
it can be very restrictive to, toactually accomplishing anything because,
I mean, maybe you can go back andthink about the why later, but for
right now, let's just try to figureout how to make this no longer or
(34:33):
less of an issue than it is currently.
how to make, the day today a little more doable.
Michelle (34:37):
yeah.
I think a lot of people will,if you relate it as if like
you broke your leg, right?
If you broke your leg, you would go tothe hospital, they would fix your leg.
They might say, what, how did you do this?
And you could say, oh, I, youknow, fell off the stairs, but
they would never shame you.
Right?
Like, they wouldn't call the police onyou, they would fix your leg, right?
Where if a person overdoses.
(34:58):
Um, or has an infection due to druguse, they go to the hospital, they're
sick, they need to be cured, youknow, um, and instead of getting
care, they say, why do you do this?
They're shamed and then the police arecalled, you know, so I think opening this
conversation to our communities abouthomelessness and drugs and addiction,
(35:19):
um, can actually get people help.
Stef (35:21):
questions too.
So, so we're not just, I know, I knowthat this is a very intense topic,
and I'm really grateful for your,um, your viewpoint on it, cause, um,
it's, it's, it's so great seeing acommunity that has seen progress on it.
And, and obviously,um, it's not a perfect.
situation.
Obviously, there's still some otherstruggles that you are encountering,
(35:44):
and it's a, it's an ongoing fight.
But, knowing that it's possibleto make that progress is
definitely, um, reassuring.
I think for, especially for peoplein our profession, but I think those
of us who do observe from day to daythat, that there, there are people
that are struggling with this.
Michelle (35:58):
And I think it's like good to just the library or just anyone who cares
can be that facilitator to get people towork together because with our day shelter
now, the police are seeing less incidentsat the library, less incidents overall.
People are being connected to resources.
They have a place to go to stay warm.
Stef (36:17):
it's been,
Michelle (36:18):
And it's helped the police.
It's helped our community.
It's helped the people who are unhoused.
So yeah, we, you just got to be able tostand up and say, Hey, I want to do it.
And that's hard.
Stef (36:29):
All of us don't want this to be happening in the community.
it's just trying to meet in a commonground and yeah, and that's fantastic.
Michelle (36:36):
Okay.
Stef (36:36):
Um, Fun
questions.
Um, what are you excited aboutin your library right now?
Michelle (36:41):
Oh my God, there's so many exciting
Stef (36:42):
I know that's a hard question to answer.
What are you most excited printers about
Michelle (36:46):
This is kind of random, but um, we got 3D printers about four years ago.
And our 3D printing servicehas gone like, off the charts.
Um, it's just a fun service.
We've added three new 3D printers.
We've got a bigger 3D printer plate.
We have a resin 3D printer now.
(37:09):
We can print things likein more fine detail.
Um, we just added a 3d scanner.
Stef (37:15):
new 3D scanner.
Ooh,
Michelle (37:16):
know.
So people, what would happen is they'dlike a part would break on their like
old boat, let's say, and they wouldhave the part that wasn't broken.
But to CAD design that was a lot of
Stef (37:28):
a 360
Michelle (37:28):
And so what we do is we now have a 3d scanner.
So you put it on the scanner.
The cameras take, you know, a 360view of that and then um, sends
it to the printer and prints it.
Stef (37:39):
That is so cool!
Michelle (37:41):
so cool.
It's just one of those unexpected thingsthat you can get at your local library
and um, so we're, we're just really busy.
We're adding, um, hopefully ifthe board approves the budget,
we'll be adding a staff member.
To help support our 3D printing serviceand just like the whole library of
things and a makerspace idea In ourin our library because there's a need
(38:06):
and it's really cool It's pretty coolYeah, it's really cool Yeah, yeah Yes
Stef (38:23):
So, in this hypothetical scenario, you've been sent to
the library principal's office.
Let's pretend that's a thing.
And let's pretend you'renot the principal in
Michelle (38:30):
in this
Stef (38:31):
So okay.
So what did you get sent tothe principal's office for?
Michelle (38:35):
principal's office for?
Oh, I, I am the worstabout returning books.
I would, that's why, I would have so manyfines, even though I come there every day.
Like, I never check out anymaterials at the library that
have fines because I would.
Totally have to pay so many fines.
Stef (38:51):
didn't pay so many fines.
Michelle (38:52):
I'm the worst, but I think a lot of librarians are.
Stef (38:55):
Yes, I think there's something about being in the library every day that makes
it be like it's, it's less of an event.
It's, it's more of acontinuous experience.
Whereas I keep telling people this too,because I have two young kids, um, that,
um, I, I have to really be purposefulto get my children in the library
and give them that experience becausemom and dad both work at the library.
(39:19):
So, um, so we bring home materials,but like so much of it is that
experience at that age, butyeah, I think we're all guilty of
Michelle (39:26):
We're all guilty.
I, and I've wrecked books in my bathtub.
You know, I'm like, I know why, you know,you know, if you sit, like, I don't even
have a very good bathtub, but sometimesI just want to sit in there reading
you, you're like, ah, I dropped it.
You know, it's just like,oh, I'll just pay for that.
You know, like.
Stef (39:40):
It happens to everybody,
Michelle (39:42):
the challenge, right?
Yes, the struggle is real becauseyou just want to read everywhere.
Stef (39:47):
everywhere.
Right, yes.
what's the most bizarre fashiontrend you've ever rocked?
Well, I am a child of the
Michelle (39:54):
and then the last question I was going to ask you is, um, what's the most
bizarre fashion trend you've ever run?
80s bangs to, um, suddenly likingpunk music and I kind of like dyed
my hair reddish black for a while,which I went to Catholic girls school.
They didn't, they frowned
Stef (40:13):
didn't let that, like, they
Michelle (40:14):
coloring.
My younger sister shaved herhead, um, and that was super bad.
She had to wear a wig for a while.
Um, but mine was just colored and Ijust, uh, I just wore a lot of black and
a lot of black makeup, you know, like,
Stef (40:28):
I mean in the 80s it could have been a lot worse.
It
Michelle (40:31):
have been worse.
Well, I knew yeah, especially becauseI went from like the polo shirt girl
To like the all black girl when Iwas like polos and all that stuff at
14 and then at 15 I'm like no and I
Stef (40:42):
What are you talking about?
I've always been punk.
Michelle (40:44):
I Know No, I was never preppy
Stef (40:47):
I was born
Michelle (40:48):
Yeah, exactly.
So maybe yeah, so either fashion.
Those are probably the weirdestfashion trends I've ever Like I
know but everybody was doing it.
I mean
Stef (40:57):
are probably
Michelle (40:59):
I don't know, there's punk rockers everywhere
Stef (41:01):
the Oh, right!
That's the, oh, that's the funthing about that, that um...
Mentality is, especially when you'rea teenager, is like you think you're
rebelling, but, but you're surrounded bypeople who are all rebelling in the exact
Michelle (41:11):
Yeah.
Like I dated a guy who had amohawk, you know, I thought that
Stef (41:15):
that
Michelle (41:15):
so cool.
Oh yeah, mom and dad were just like,oh, you know, and you know, he had the
mohawk and the chains and all that.
And I thought he was so cute.
So I tried to match his style, you know.
But.
Yeah, unfortunately, I don'teven have any pictures from that
Stef (41:33):
Oh, that's tragic.
Michelle (41:34):
I know it's such a good time of my life,
Stef (41:37):
thank you so much for sitting down with me and making
the time to have this conversation.
I really appreciate
Michelle (41:41):
Yeah, you're welcome, I'm glad we could connect
Stef (41:44):
me too.
one of the things that is reallyinteresting to me at these kinds of events
is, the fact that we get to see all ofthe ways in which our lives are similar
and our communities are similar, even inthe state of Michigan, it's a big state
and it's very easy to find very differentkinds of communities, we do share a
lot so thank you so much for your time.
Michelle (42:02):
You're welcome.
Stef (42:05):
when I've been to the ALA convention, it's the
American Library Association.
it's a national convention.
It moves around every year.
it covers the full breadth of,anything related to libraries.
So every, every corner of that world.
Um, so it's huge.
it starts on Thursday, and it goes through
Cara (42:27):
Yeah,
Stef (42:28):
And by the time Monday morning comes around, and everybody's
frantically, cause they have a, theyalso have a post office on site.
Um, people can ship stuff backbecause one, yeah, that's my
Cara (42:42):
part of going
Stef (42:44):
to ALA is, Friday night is when they open the exhibition floor and
it's only available to people whohave full registration for the event.
And it's just a mad dash like I, I broughta cart with me this past year and I still
was that person who kept crashing into
Cara (43:01):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
That's San Diego Comic Conas soon as those doors open.
That's the one nice thing aboutbeing professional at those events,
Stef (43:08):
You get in
Cara (43:09):
I get in early.
And like, even if I don't necessarilywant to pick, like at conventions like
San Diego and everything else, peopleare dashing in and going straight to like
the Funko Pop booth and getting the likelimited collect releases and stuff like
that and I'm not interested in doing allof that but you know I still want to like
hit up other artists that I know are goingto be popular yeah because it gets bonkers
Stef (43:35):
Yeah, and at, at ALA, all of the major publishers, they just put stacks
of stuff that they have coming out inthe coming, like just mountains of it.
they just step back and theyjust let people grab stuff
and
Cara (43:50):
chaos.
Stef (43:50):
it is, but it's, it's, um, it's so much fun though.
I, like, I, yeah, it's so much fun.
I usually will end up with Probablya good hundred books the first night.
And that's, I probably would endup with more if I could carry more.
They give out tote bagstoo, but you know what?
When you've got six totebags full of books, it gets,
Cara (44:12):
so good.
Yeah.
uh, Black Canary, uh, came out withMeg Cabot, I begged DC to let me do ALA
and stuff, and I never got a chance,but I'm like, someday I'll do ALA.
Stef (44:22):
I mean, come on, DC, get it
Cara (44:24):
over with.
I know, I was
so bummed.
Stef (44:25):
the artists, too.
Cara (44:27):
know, that was the one bummer thing about, about that,
um, YA line that they did.
I loved doing it, um, I loved workingwith Meg, um, but with all of their books
across the board for that line, they werevery focused on promoting the writers,
which is fair because that was the bigdraw for them, was getting these big name,
(44:47):
writers like Kami Garcia,Meg, and all that.
Um, and then the artistsare like tiny little blooms
Stef (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, they're definitely selling it on the, on the writers.
But, I mean, I've seen some of themdo a little bit better about that.
Maybe not necessarily the,
core group of them.
But I can't remember whatbook they were promoting.
But there was a, um, A graphic title thatJason Reynolds had written at this, this
past year and the artist, which I willfully admit, I don't remember their name,
Cara (45:19):
It's a lot to keep track of.
Stef (45:20):
well, I'm just bad with names in general, but I, and
I was admittedly also in line.
So I could, I could, you know,drool over Jason Reynolds
Cara (45:28):
He's the coolest
Stef (45:29):
in the world.
but yeah, like I, I do feellike some of the non DC Marvel.
Publishers are maybejust a little bit better
about that.
Cara (45:38):
for sure,
Stef (45:38):
Um, and their, their boots are actually pretty
small at those events, too.
I think they are such a known quantitythat, like, they, it's a, it's a
little bit like, yeah, we're here.
I mean, you know we're here.
whereas you've got Scholastic that's got,
if you look at the map, they'rejust like, Twelve booths all, it's
Cara (45:57):
So it's the inverse of San Diego Comic Con, where like, because Scholastic
and, and like Random House and all thoseother publishers have booths at San
Diego Comic Con, but they're like, yeah,
Stef (46:10):
Right, they're the, yeah, they're the minority in that, that space, yeah,
Cara (46:14):
meanwhile Marvel has this huge stage and like this
Stef (46:17):
Right.
Cara (46:18):
usually an exhibit.
I once did a signing at, Ithink I was at Boom, um, doing a
signing for Over the Garden Wall
Stef (46:25):
Wall.
I love Boom Studios.
I, I will happily buy every, everysingle title that they put out.
Cara (46:31):
They're awesome.
They do put out great stuff.
but this one year I was doinga signing at their table at San
Diego was, um, the booth was rightacross from the Marvel booth.
And, um,
Stef (46:43):
That's a rough place to
Cara (46:44):
it was a rough place to be, especially because during the same time
I was signing, They had the cast ofGuardians of the Galaxy right across
from me.
So I was just likestaring at like Zoe's all
across the aisle,
Stef (46:58):
gonna stare at somebody exactly.
Cara (47:00):
Nobody's at my table.
They're all looking
Stef (47:03):
at Chris
Cara (47:04):
And I'm like, well, all right,
I'll
look
Stef (47:06):
and I'll pick, I'll pick Zoe over
Chris Pratt.
Like, he's okay.
I'm trying to
Cara (47:10):
to think there was, was it?
Oh my God.
I can't think of his name.
Lee Pace.
I think Lee Pace was there.
Oh.
What a, what a beautiful man.
That
that was another thing I used to doat San Diego Comic Con before I really
started doing, uh, my comics and stuffwas, for a while I was going as media.
Um, so I would do interviews and stufffor, uh, online news outlets and stuff.
(47:33):
So I got to interview celebrities every so
often
Stef (47:36):
Who was the most fun person you ever got to interview?
Cara (47:39):
Probably one of the nicest and chillest guys, who like, every
time you talk to him, you can justfeel how excited he is to be making
movies, was Guillermo del Toro.
Stef (47:50):
Oh yeah, I
Cara (47:51):
The coolest
guy.
I loved him.
I think that one stands out the most.
Stef (47:56):
most.
And he makes some prettyremarkable stuff, too.
I, get, he, he obviously gets to executehis creative vision a lot more clearly
than some, some people in that industry.
So I'm sure it's nice to be him.
Cara (48:11):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
He's kind of got it made
at this point.
.Yeah.
He's kind of got likethat blank check to do.
Right.
Whatever.
But
the
Stef (48:19):
so we've talked a lot about the more glamorous side of, of comics.
So do you want to, um, talk a littlebit about what that world looks
like to you on a more day to day?
what's a day in the life of a comic
Cara (48:30):
day
Stef (48:31):
of a freelance comic
Cara (48:33):
the life of a comic artist?
A freelance comic artist.
Neither of these have been announced,so I can't say what they are, but um,
the one that I've had for a while hasbeen great, because it's like a full
(48:53):
length graphic novel, and they've beenvery good about letting me take my time
on it, because I was suffering fromlike, really bad burnout last year,
Stef (49:00):
Oh, yeah.
Freelancing.
I can imagine like you, I'm extrapolatinghere, to be fair, I have friends who have
worked as creative freelancers beforesure there's a little bit of like, I
need to, I need to ride this wave whileI can so it doesn't crest and disappear.
So
Cara (49:17):
you have to chase that basically.
Um, so yeah, the one book has beengreat because I can take my time.
I'll do like chunks of rough sketchesof each page at a time and send them
in for approvals from the editors andwriters and wait for those before I go
in and do Um, Neater pencils, and thenget approvals for those, and then move
(49:41):
on to the, um, inking, the final inking.
they send it to somebody else forcoloring, if it needs color and lettering
because I like to color, but coloristsand comics don't get nearly enough
credit
because, oh my gosh, that coloringwill nine times out of ten carry.
an entire book, like it will make all the
(50:01):
difference.
Um, and I've worked with some reallyincredible colorists, so I'm excited to
see , what we do with, with these books.
Stef (50:08):
It's funny to think that so much of that creatively,
you know,
lives and dies with you, but thenat the end of the day, there's
this very final product thatyou're kind of just sending out,
Cara (50:20):
and
it's fun to see what it lookslike when I get it back.
the inverse of that nice, long, like,relaxed book that I've got doing, I got a
call from, Marvel a couple of weeks ago,and they needed just a fill in artist,
with a very, very tight deadline, thepages were actually due yesterday, but
I emailed and I was like, I am runningbehind because I had two weeks to do.
(50:44):
So, yeah.
An issue where usually that willyou'll get like at least a month or
two.
on an issue And so
Stef (50:51):
does that mean that because you're filling in For like, established
artwork, does that mean you have tobasically imitate an existing style,
Cara (51:00):
For this, luckily, no.
Uh, sometimes I'll ask artists to do that.
Um, there, there are artists thatspecifically are hired because
they're good at that kind of thing.
I am not one of those
Stef (51:11):
yeah, that would be tough I would imagine,
Cara (51:13):
it's, it's a very precise skill that I do not have.
when I was in college and in mytwenties, I could definitely knock
out a whole issue in a week or two.
No problem, whatever, Ican pull all nighters.
I'm learning now, as I approach 40,that I cannot do that so much anymore.
I'll get to about midnight, and I'm like,Oh, I need to go to bed, but I still have,
(51:33):
like, three pages I have to ink tonight.
So, the last week or so, I'vepretty much been running on,
like, Red Bull and Determination.
Stef (51:42):
Oh, yeah.
So.
Cara (51:44):
it's a lot.
It's definitely a lot.
And then, well, the nice thing,too, is it's not this, this
project is not a traditional
issue.
like a physical book.
It's their web format.
So it's the scrolling Webtoon style
format.
So it's not really broken intopages so much as, like, screens.
so it's a lot.
It's technically a little bit shorterthan a traditional issue would be, but
(52:08):
with the web format, it's interestingbecause you have to think about
it in a completely different way.
Oh,
yeah.
Because usually I'm thinking aboutlike how page turns will look and like
the pacing of like when you're lookingat a page and with the scrolling web
format, I have to be thinking about howyou're reading on your phone and like
what's
Stef (52:28):
How much is visible in like a panel on the screen, yeah.
Cara (52:32):
and with this issue too, in particular, I'll have to like show you
when it comes out because a lot of it is.
heavily relies on the narrative ofscrolling down like there's literally
like a character is falling out of an
airplane the whole
issue so it's just her
Stef (52:52):
Oh, that's fascinating.
What an interesting idea.
Cara (52:55):
So it's, it's, it's been an interesting challenge.
So it's, luckily, again, like,since the deadline's so tight, I
have very little I have to drawin terms of, like, environments,
which is usually the hardest part.
It's like drawing intricatebackgrounds and stuff.
This, I'm like, clouds everywhere.
So that's nice.
(53:15):
Exactly.
Like, it's gotta get done.
Stef (53:18):
this to me just underscores that much more like I, tend to get on the
soapbox when it comes to stuff likethis, especially with parents a lot
of parents are starting to get it, butthere is still so much stigma with,
with adults who were, you know, who grewup before this was a format that was,
that was, people were familiar with.
And now, um, Especially, as is informedby like, what the standards are set in
(53:41):
the schools, there's very like, well, youknow, comic reading is extra reading, but
Cara (53:47):
then it's
Stef (53:47):
do the real reading in the classroom and real reading
apparently doesn't have visuals.
I don't know why, which is socounterintuitive because they
read picture books forever.
So I don't know
Cara (53:57):
why,
Stef (53:58):
why suddenly that becomes stigmatized.
It really links back to thatconcept that, like, there are
multiple forms of literacy.
there's what we think of in terms of, likereading sentences on a page and, fluency
of language and all that and everythingthat we learn in schools from that aspect.
But visual literacy is very
Cara (54:17):
Oh, yeah.
Stef (54:18):
it, it fires things in your brain and, if kids do not learn that, it can
alter how they experience things too.
and if you want your kid to be likean engineer later on, they need to
be able to visually and spatiallyprocess things and that's, and
(54:39):
that's something that's got getsunderscored by that sort of experience.
So.
Cara (54:43):
It, it, yeah, if you have, like, one of the most famous comic book
illustrators of all time, um, Will Eisner.
the Oscars of comics are
named after
him.
because He
was so influential and he, he didlike, um, I'm not going to think of
the Contract with God and, and, um,The Spirit and all of these really
amazing comic titles that, that he did.
(55:04):
read, like, literature.
But then also, you know,you talk about engineering.
He used to illustrate, um, the,the mechanic manuals for the army
during World War II and stuff.
And so he has that range of,being able to do comics, but also
these, detailed, like, beautiful,
honestly, like, mechanical illustrations.
(55:25):
And so, like, Yeah, you can't just,like, it's easy to lump all, like,
comic art together, but it's so broadand, like, Yeah, it's fascinating,
honestly, when you really look into it.
Stef (55:37):
we should culturally give that a lot more credit.
I think there's this goofy assumptionthat because it's not something that
you quote unquote learn to do, that it'snot, it doesn't have the same value.
there are things that your brain isdoing that you don't even know that it's
doing, but you still want them to do it.
Like you want, you want your brain to beable, and really phenomenal artists, part
(56:00):
of what they do is they, like, they breakdown how a person is going to, how to take
this in, how they're going to perceive it,what, what's going to catch the eye first,
and like, yeah, and how you take it in.
And they, you know, they,
Cara (56:16):
Yeah,
that's
the biggest part of my job as a comicartist is making sure I can very clearly
demonstrate what the writer wants to showin a comic page and like, make sure that
the reader can understand what's going on.
Like, I'll, I'll get comic scriptsthat are like, it'll be frustrating
(56:37):
because the script will saysomething like, in this panel,
Turns around and sees so and so and thenjumps out of the window, and I'm like, Oh
no, that's like five panels that I have todraw because that's more than one action
and more than one person And
If I tried to cram so much informationinto just one panel, the reader's not
gonna know what the heck is going on.
(56:57):
Nobody's gonna want
Stef (56:58):
is huge, yeah.
Cara (57:01):
exactly.
there's a lot more thought that goesinto the layout of a comic page than
I think a lot of people realize.
Stef (57:08):
and just to put in a plug, you are doing a program for our teenage group
in April, talking about, um, how, well,
yeah,
Cara (57:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I want to, like, show teenagerspretty much the process of what goes
into making a comic page, like, fromgetting the script to, like, breaking
it down all that, so I'll try to cramas much information in there as I can.
Stef (57:35):
can.
Hey, and if you're, if this is a subjectthat interests you and you are not
a teen, um, definitely let us know.
Cause, um, as I said,we're comic nerds here too.
I'm sure, like, we would happilyLet her do a whole session with
just a staff and not invite anybody
Cara (57:51):
else
Uh huh.
Um,
Stef (57:53):
if it's something that you would like to hear more about beyond
the Lengthy conversations we keephaving because I you know, why not?
Let us know because I think it wouldbe fun for us to do More programming
around this and as long as we cankeep her in the building, we might
as well take advantage of her,
Cara (58:08):
her
Stef (58:10):
All right, thank you so much Cara for sitting down with me and
as you know As I so often do, Ijust put you on the spot and made
you sit down with me impromptu.
Cara (58:18):
me impromptu.
for
being
Stef (58:19):
so open and understanding
Cara (58:21):
about it.
Stef (58:22):
Um, have fun at, at Emerald City.
Um, hopefully your flight doesn't getcanceled and everything goes smoothly.
And, um, hopefully you don'thave a gigantic migraine at
the end of the weekend, but
Cara (58:35):
Knock on wood.
Yeah.
Stef (58:36):
yeah.
Um, okay.
all right.
Take care.
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