In this episode of LEGENDS Podcast by All Day Vinyl, host Scott Dudelson interviews Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee Felix Cavaliere, singer of the classic 1960's band The (Young) Rascals. With a decorated history that includes induction into Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Songwriters Hall of Fame, Musicians Hall of Fame and Grammy Hall of Fame, Cavaliere dives deep into his musical career and shares anecdotes surrounding some of the most important moments in early Rock and Roll History including the recording of "Good Lovin" & "Groovin," the writing of "People Gotta Be Free," (a song Springsteen called the defining of his generation), changing the bands name from 'Rascals' to 'Young Rascals' and finally back to 'Rascals,' The Beatles Shea Stadium concert & Cavaliere's vivid recollections working in the Atlantic Records studio.
Cavaliere is a true LEGEND and his life and music made a profound impact on rock and roll history.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Thank you for listening. This is the Legends Podcast by All Day Vinyl.
I'm your host, Scott Dettelson.
After you finish this episode, please subscribe, rate it, and check us out on
Instagram and YouTube at All Day Vinyl.
Today, I'm excited to speak with a true legend, a member of the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame, Songwriters Hall of Fame, Musicians Hall of Fame,
Grammy Hall of Fame, and my favorite, the Hammond B3 Hall of Fame,
(00:21):
the Hammond Hall of Fame.
He wrote some of the most iconic songs of the 1960s. Groovin',
How Can I Be Sure, People Got to Be Free.
Amazing. Beautiful Morning and so many more. I'm here with the great Felix Cavallari
of the Rascals. Thank you, Felix. Thank you for joining.
My pleasure. Good to see you, Scott. Good to see you too, man.
(00:42):
So let's start. You have a new album called Then and Now. So let's start with
the now and then we'll take it back to the then.
Yeah. The new album came out late last year, five original songs,
five covers, old soul songs that were, you know, influential or favorites of yours.
There's Clarence Carter, Slip Away, Benny King, Spanish Harlem, some really great ones.
(01:06):
Now, what is the theme behind the five that you chose?
Because it's a well of an infinite amount of great old soul R&B.
Why these five? Well, that's a good question because, like I say,
you know, we came up with this idea to do five old songs that influenced you
and then five new songs that you write.
(01:27):
Very, very difficult finding five old songs out of out of 5000 that influenced you, you know? Yeah.
So it really was difficult making a choice because, like I say, you know, I grew up.
Near New York City when Alan Freed brought rock and roll from Cleveland to New York.
So I was actually present at the beginning of what we know today as pop music, rock and roll.
(01:52):
I heard all these phenomenal artists.
And in case people don't know it, I mean, there was no auto-tune in those days.
You basically either sang correctly or you didn't record.
Chord so that the talent was just amazing so
to pick five songs was very difficult but that's
(02:15):
that's pretty much what my my co-producer and
i mike severs who's also my guitarist we came up with five and were these singles
that you had known as as a kid or as a younger man yeah you know these these
were songs that you know like really like you know i i think you could probably
For the most part, like you can point to the artists.
(02:37):
You know, like Benny King, tremendous influence on me because of the fact that
his voice was just unbelievable, you know?
And he was also one of the nicest men I ever met in my life, you know?
My only regret is that I never got a chance to do a duet or something with him.
He was really, really special.
So pick a song. Okay, Spanish horn, but there's so many Benny Kings.
(03:00):
And then Ray Charles. I mean, as a piano player, when I heard Ray Charles,
it changed everything because I was playing classical music and I heard this
gospel R&B pianist and I never had heard anything like that.
And that has influenced my whole my whole life, you know.
(03:23):
So to find a Ray Charles song is also not that easy because there's so many.
So on and on and on. That's how I did it. And then we have a couple of obscure
ones in there, like the one with Bobby Moore.
That's just because, uh, you know, we live down South now and that was a big hit down South.
I don't think it was a big hit up North, but Mike knew it because he's from
(03:45):
South Carolina and it's a cool song.
You know, the interesting thing about that is that, uh.
What do you call percy from the from the led zeppelin man
he just robert plant just did an album with allison
krauss and he did that same song so amazing yeah you there was no uh you didn't
know that no i had no idea but he did it he did it kind of like a newer type
(04:09):
of style i kind of copied emulated what they did searching for love is that
it's really a cool song i love Love it.
And this goes back a lot to, you know, Good Lovin' and finding the really cool
singles, picking out the really great soul songs that you could interpret.
Exactly. Yeah. Because in the old days, that's what was demanded of you to work in clubs.
(04:33):
No originals. They didn't want originals for many, many years because,
you know, their whole thing was to bring people there, make them dance, make them drink.
And the way to do that was to do you know
covers or what we call top 40 in those days you
know and so they demanded that you do covers so i we had to find you know songs
(04:55):
that were on the radio and i had to go and buy the 45s to prove like for example
uh good loving and mustang sally look these are records man you know we didn't
write these you know i wish i did.
The first time you heard Good Lovin' was that on the radio Yeah,
No it was WWF I believe in New York City It was an R&B station That was a group
(05:21):
that I also liked Called the Olympics,
But I come to find out that that had been around A while before them as well
You know But when we took it And we put it into a live set From the first time
we played it People just jumped out of their seats and danced,
So, you know, you just never know.
(05:41):
You know that was a song when you first heard it that you could interpret and
you could really do something with?
Yeah, and sort of the Atlantic. When we were doing that live when they found
us out in Long Island at the barge.
That's one of the songs that they, you know, they wanted us to release as a single.
And they were absolutely right, because it was a number one record instantly, you know.
(06:02):
So good luck, good loving, good luck.
And you worked on that in the studio with Arif Martin and Tom Dowd,
is that right? Right. Correct. Yeah. Which was what?
I actually have so many questions about this. But give me give me like a little
piece, a slice of the moment of what it was like being in the studio early days
(06:23):
with these two, you know, soon to be legends and you soon to be legend.
How what is this? What is that experience like?
You know, I had a little experience in a recording studio, but not much,
you know, so it's a whole new environment.
Environment so to walk into atlantic records
studio was kind of like you know
(06:44):
if you come from new york it would be the yankee dugout
you know it was like oh
my god do you know who's been in this room right
here i mean seriously we're talking about general coltrane
ray charles the drifters you know
all these phenomenal it was
like awe-inspiring you know and you're in this place
(07:05):
where this music was made you know and
atlantic they just
made they made you feel like
you're here to make good music okay that's
what we're here for we want to make great music and you just felt that the moment
you walked in and arif was it was was not a proven entity by any any means you
(07:28):
had you know he came from turkey and he was like what they call an anr man they
They called him Tommy Dowd.
I knew who he was because, you know, I bought all these records and his name
was on them, mostly as an engineer.
But I had no idea of the extent of this man's talent.
So to walk in with these gentlemen and to have to record was very interesting
(07:54):
because one of the things that I did when we were signed is I really wanted to produce ourselves.
Ourselves i didn't want anybody taking over you know
and as you say that's in my book we had to turn down
some really powerful people who wanted
to to assign us to get that picture to do
it right it was wrong yeah but all the other labels that had made offers to
(08:18):
us they would not allow us to be in charge literally in charge and that's an
atlantic dig so there's a lot of pressure but you see one of the things I learned from these two.
Giant set was they make you
right at ease you know i mean immediately you
knew these guys were there to make good music
(08:40):
and let's get to work you know and a
reef one of the things i really learned from him was how
to handle you know crazy young artists like
us you know he was very tactful and that's
important you know you create an environment for them
to make music and that's what happened that's how
we did it amazing and you were the
(09:02):
rascals were the first white band signed
to atlantic records right yeah pretty much on
the red and black label you know which was pretty cool
that was really cool and when you
were when you were recording did you
have any experiences with some of the the atlantic
artists at that time with this would be wasn't picket it
(09:23):
yeah i mean oh sure because you know
atlantic was not like a real sophisticated type of
corporate venture yet you know they became that
way when when they became warner brothers so as
a result there would be people walking in the in the halls that were like giant
legends you know and you see these guys walking by and it was just amazing because
(09:48):
you know like at first you know like Like, you know, you're in awe of these people.
I mean, Sam and Dave and Wilson Pickett, you know, the phenomenal jazz players, Hubert Laws.
These guys would be walking right by the studio, you know.
And there was no, like, really restricted areas.
Like in the Columbia studio, big signs up, recording, do not enter, et cetera, et cetera.
(10:14):
So people mingled, you know. And that really, really, really helped because
a lot of times I would see some of these guys going by.
And if there were a jazz soloist, I'd say, hey, you guys want to play a solo
on some of our stuff, man? You know? And what a treat that was.
I mean, so, you know, as I say, the entire Atlantic world for me was like a magic kingdom.
(10:40):
You know, I really enjoyed it. And I've always been thankful that we've been able to do it.
Amazing and you put out some amazing records with them yeah but
for the first record was titled and labeled as
young rascals obviously yeah the rascals and as a record collector somebody's
been tons of record stores i have noticed sometimes that it's filed under young
(11:01):
rascals i know other rascals so tell me the story of why it was young rascals
and then yeah got to what it is well you you know,
basically we didn't really have a name, you know, and the way the story goes
is a fellow by the name of soupy sales gave us the name, the rascals,
you know, which is a long story to make it kind of short, you know.
(11:26):
We wanted to be discovered, so we went to his television station,
and he had a hit record, and told him, look, if you need a backup band, we're here.
And he said, all these years, I never knew I needed a backup band.
I said, well, you've got a hit record, man.
You need a backup band. He said, what's your name? We didn't have a name.
So after a series of jokes, he said, well, the Rascals.
(11:50):
So we used the Rascals. Well, okay, well,
I think our record started coming out Just before Good Lovin' We're in California
going to work at the Whiskey A Go-Go And we get a phone call from our manager
Can't use the name Rascals Wow, what happened?
Well, there's a group called the Harmonica Rascals They used to be on Milton
(12:13):
Berle's show Which is, you know, a long time ago,
And they're going to be a problem So I, meaning Sid,
changed the name to young well you
know the name of a group is kind of like naming your kid you know i mean basically
you know like it's kind of person you know and groups take a long time so i
(12:34):
i didn't like it from the beginning i don't know if anybody else liked it but
it caused a lot of confusion.
Because there was a television show at that time and
so people would say hey did that
dog really have a circle around his eye as the
little rascals that was the inference that kind
of bugged me you know and so when we had our
(12:56):
hit records i said you know what man let's let's just change it not thinking
that they would be moving us from bin to bin in the record stores not thinking
there'll be a little bit of confusion you know thinking was i don't know you
know you're living in the moment you're a young guy you know what i mean like
you're allowed to make some,
crazy decisions but anyway so we became the rams
(13:19):
i want to touch that's i that soupy sales stuff's
amazing and you're young at you're young at that time how do you have the balls
to just go up to somebody like this and have the confidence that your music
and that you could handle this where does where does that come from at that
time well i don't know man i mean that's just like one of the things about coming
from new york you know when you come from new New York,
(13:41):
you've got chutzpah, they call it. Yeah, right.
So, you know, we said, we've got to get discovered. We also did the same with
Cousin Brucie, you know.
We stormed into WABC, you know. We said, we've got to get discovered.
What are we going to do? Well, let's grab Cousin Brucie and bring him down to the club.
And we found out he was about 6'4". We said, excuse me. Yeah.
(14:03):
Can we talk to you? You know, you're trying to find a way to get discovered, you know.
And fortunately, like he, you know, has been a friend for all those years.
And Soupy, rest his soul, he was always in our corner. The thing that Soupy
liked about it is that we laughed at everything he said.
So he said, wow, this could work out. Sometimes I go and no one laughs.
(14:27):
But if the band laughs, at least I feel a little better.
He was great. He was a great, great man. Incredible.
Yeah, he was a great guy. And you've talked about in the book and in the past
the Beatles' influence on you and songwriting.
And your manager was Sid Bernstein, who was one of the first people to bring
the Beatles to America and to Shea Stadium.
(14:47):
And I want to ask you, because I know you were at the Shea Stadium show, which is legendary.
My father went there. Oh, wow.
And it's probably one of the highlights of his life. He's probably listening to Yo Dad.
Dad so tell me tell me about tell me about tell me about that experience of
being being there as a young band and experiencing that Beatlemania what that
(15:11):
does for you well I mean uh there's two parts to the story first part being
exactly what you said you know there's 50,000 people.
Screaming you know they wouldn't
stop you know I mean you could barely hear the
person right next to you much less the band
who was about to play the helicopter you heard you that was about it
(15:33):
you know i had witnessed them in
europe i i think you know from my original uh
a trip over there with joey d uh i i
was able to hear the beatles before they came to the united states and the same
thing occurred although that was in a club atmosphere you know there was a a
non-stop shriek from the audience because it was just unbelievable, you know, and.
(16:01):
The second part of the story is that our manager put a sign up on the scoreboard.
The Raspels are coming. The Raspels are coming. The Raspels are coming.
And, you know, we didn't know about it, you know. But when we saw it,
we said, wow, how cool is this? How cool is this?
And, of course, you know, being in the dugout, we waved, you know.
(16:21):
And Brian Epstein did not like that at all.
You know, he was not happy about that. That, as a matter of fact,
he threatened to cancel the show if that wasn't immediately taken down.
So all of these different things, you know, attributed to an evening.
Your father will tell you, it was kind of really special.
You know, it was kind of like, well, I'm here. You know, it's kind of like Super Bowl, you know.
(16:44):
Yeah. But it was over pretty quickly also, you know.
But it was quite an experience.
Did you get an opportunity to meet them during that? No, no, no, no.
They were in and out. they were on the field and then
they were gone you know they didn't I don't think
they stayed I don't think they went to a
dressing room Brian did you know their manager but
(17:05):
I just remember them they were gone and years later through your yogi practice
with Swami George Harrison became a confidant or somebody who helped you in
that path absolutely yeah well we got to know them a number of times because
of the as I say first in Europe,
with Joey D and then second with, with Sid Bernstein having press conferences
(17:29):
and just kind of like, you know, it was a little bit of a, you know,
a mix up between the three of us, the four of us, five of us, you know?
And so you got to know them and they were really very good guys.
I mean, they were interesting people, you know, like.
I later toured with Ringo, who was a great, great guy.
(17:50):
But, you know, one time, you know, I said to George, because I really wanted
to know about his involvement with the Maharishi.
I was about to get involved with a spiritual venture with a Swami, Swami Satchidananda.
And I just wanted to ask him a couple of questions. And during that conversation,
(18:10):
you know, I just happened to mention, I said, do you have any idea how big you guys are?
I mean, do you have any idea what kind of a weight?
In other words, if you move three inches to the right, the globe kind of shifts a little bit.
And, you know, George was a very introspective kind of guy. You know,
he really was a very intelligent man.
(18:31):
And he just looked down and he said, yeah.
In other words, hey, dude, I got to carry that around with me every day.
You know? And that's true. When I was on the road with Ringo,
as I was 97, you know, we did the Ringo All-Stars.
For him to go to a movie, we had the whole theater. He had to basically have
(18:52):
it open privately for him.
So we would go in and we'd be the only ones in the theater. That's a little difficult.
I mean, it sounds like fun, but I don't know, man. You know? Interesting.
And around that time, when the Beatles were inspiring you, you started writing
your own music with Eddie. Eddie, and one of the first big hits of that was
(19:15):
Reuven, is that right? Right, yes.
Can you tell me a little about the writing sessions of how you and Eddie began on that?
Basically, because the Beatles and Bob Dylan, the Kinks, Stones,
Lovers Pool, began this new venture writing their own material.
(19:38):
I said, well, let's do this. Let's try it. You know what I mean?
So, you know, I hadn't been writing all my life, you know, but it's just that,
as I say, we couldn't use them.
You know, now, because we had this number one smash Ola, you know,
good loving, we had a little wait.
So I said, well, let's try it, you know? So I brought the songs in,
(19:58):
you know, and basically I wanted to create a, uh-oh, uh-oh, where are you?
There you are. I wanted to create a Lennon and McCartney situation,
so I asked Eddie, who I felt was really good at the verses.
In other words, I would give him the subject, I'd write all the music,
(20:19):
and basically I'd write mostly like, this is what the song is about.
And then he would fill in the verses.
And I just found his words to be a lot more flowery than mine.
I was a little bit too serious, I thought.
So for a while, we had this collaboration, which worked. But,
you know, I wrote most of them myself and brought them in to him.
(20:43):
And unfortunately, you know, like it didn't stay like that because I think, you know.
If you don't really enjoy the process, it becomes W-O-R-K.
And it never was work for me. This was like a pleasure for me to do.
I think Eddie kind of got bogged down a little bit, you know.
And I later found out that he asked his brother to help him out with lyrics,
(21:06):
which we never knew, you know. That's a wild story.
And, you know, you don't know. And then in those days, there was a two album a year minimum.
I mean, you know, like we did a lot of albums. Beatles did a lot of albums.
Later years, as the artists became more and more and more powerful,
and the gap in between albums releases would, you know, it would take maybe
(21:28):
two or three years. They wouldn't do an album in two years.
But when we did it, it was, you know, you had to do two a year. It's a lot of work.
And as I say, if you enjoy that work, great.
If you don't, then it becomes difficult, you know.
So very interesting, you know, adventures.
(21:48):
Absolutely. And when you have a song like Groovin' and you bring it to the band,
you bring it to Dino and you bring it to Gene, is it fully formed or was it
the type of thing where you then flesh it fully out before you record it?
Well, basically what I did is I established a relationship with Arif Martin.
He actually took a rental, I believe it was, in my old hometown,
(22:13):
which was Pelham, New York.
I would go over to his home And I'd show him This is what I did man This is
what I have And he would sit down at the piano with me And say that's good I
like this one How about this try this And the try this was like Oh my god,
How cool is that Because one of the things about Arif As I mentioned earlier
(22:37):
Was this joy of making music This was not a job,
He didn't have to invite me me over to his home to go through the productions.
He loved it, you know, and you could tell. And his enthusiasm is just the same
as you would have if you're a young person in a band.
(22:58):
It was exactly the same, you know. And so by the time we got to the studio,
we really kind of knew what we were going to do, you know, pretty much.
You know, as I say, sometimes when we get to the studio, lyrics would be complete.
So we had a little bit of a backlog of tracks and we had to catch up with the lyrics.
(23:19):
But that was just the way it was But musically Our band basically With the exception
of the bass Which happened later Because I played the original bass On organ.
And Arif said one day Look, you know, the sound is getting more and more sophisticated,
There's a group around here King Curtis' band And there's a bass player around
(23:42):
here His name is Chuck Rainey And why don't we invite him in Well Well,
fortunately, we invited him in for Groovin'.
Yeah. And, you know, to fall in love in a studio, it was an amazing,
just an amazing relationship from day one, you know, because he was a phenomenal bass player, you know.
(24:06):
And much as I tried with my left hand and my foot, I couldn't do what he did.
I mean, it was impossible. so now we had
the fourth so-called member in
the studio but everybody else gene dino myself
and eddie that's it we didn't we didn't bring
anybody else in except for to solo you know
(24:26):
like for example some of the horn players that were walking in
halls so the sessions were a joyous
occasion for the most part at least to me i mean
yeah it was work but you know making music that
you just created and hearing it back on
these wonderful speakers you know you you
just say like wow is this
(24:49):
really happening you know is this really really taking place and then as it
blossomed you know and we had great voices i mean you know eddie and and then
later we brought his brother in who was a great singer david yeah it was just
a magical event and and and the secretaries see See,
the Atlantic Studios were right adjacent to the offices in those days.
(25:10):
It wasn't a big corporate venture.
You know, the secretaries would come to the door of the studio and they'd kind
of like start dancing and stuff.
Like, you know, okay, man, we got something here, you know? Wow. Plus, what fun.
I mean, like I said, it was just a blast.
That sounds like an amazing time. It was an amazing experience, you know, as I say. Yeah.
(25:32):
You know, we're so lucky to have been part of that family. Yeah, absolutely.
And you had really amazing songs that you wrote. Beautiful, Beautiful Morning, How Can I Be Sure.
But I want to talk about one in particular that Bruce Springsteen called the
definitive of his generation.
And it's a remarkable song, People Gotta Be Free. Yeah.
(25:53):
Well, that was an interesting song because, you know, as most people probably
know, you know, your life experiences come out in your music, you know.
And, you know, like if you're going through changes, you know,
that comes out in your music more and more, more and more and more.
That was happening, too.
But this this was an experience that happened to, you know, my personal life.
(26:14):
I was doing Robert Kennedy's campaign.
You know, I was, you know, like just looking for a big change that we could perhaps make.
And it was this young man who espoused a lot of the beliefs that I had in those days.
And I was seeing this lady Who was
a part of the campaign Who was actually out there
(26:34):
When that horrible assassination Happened And
in those days you know We didn't have the social media
We didn't have like the internet I had like a short wave radio And I was actually
on vacation And I heard this assassination That happened in Los Angeles I don't
know I mean it just hit me You know know, it's kind of like, wow,
(26:58):
you know, everything's going to stop here, you know, everything that we've been
working on, everything, and so it came out in a song,
you know, it came out in a thought, came out in a plea of what the hell is going
on here, you know, which Marvin Gaye already did,
what's going on, well, I don't know what was going on, but, you know,
(27:21):
well, I wonder if people know where we're at.
I wonder if they, maybe they think we're part of this.
Kind of what's going on today. No, let's make sure that they know where we're
at. This is where we're at.
All the world over, so easy to see. People everywhere just got to be free. End of story.
And it became like an obsession. You know, got to do this.
(27:45):
Brought it back to New York. Record company said, what are you doing?
Why are you guys rocking the boat? I said, what boat?
You know, we're not rocking anything. thing just you're just telling people
how we feel ah it's not a good idea don't do it you know,
and i had a fight with them you know i had a fight with jerry jerry wexler you know who,
(28:08):
was a cantankerous man and you know fortunately we
had uh like i said we had so so on paper creative control but we're young kids
you know i'm saying and these guys were grown men and was their label so we
went at odds all the time fortunately a lot of people helped us out you know
a lot of people on the staff like some of the uh some of the other a and r people.
(28:31):
They they they they say man that's a good record
man you know jerry you better pay me better pay attention this is good but that's
what happens behind the scenes it could have not gone out at all you know and
instead it became a number one record not only in the united states but in all
the places in the world that at that time were oppressed you know and that really meant something,
(28:55):
because yeah you know you're doing something besides just you
know putting a record out and trying to you know attract the flies
you know it's just you know it there's a reason that we're here on earth you
know and uh maybe that was our reason you know is to say something you know
and boy i tell you that it's still needed man i mean it's just ridiculous people
(29:15):
they don't understand that You know, like we're all created equal.
That's what it says, you know, when you see that Statue of Liberty.
I mean, I don't get it. I don't get it.
Yeah. Did you get to tour in any of those areas or overseas or abroad?
We did to a degree, but it was difficult in those days because,
(29:35):
you know, as I said earlier, Atlantic was not Warner Brothers yet.
So the record companies in most of the free world, most of the world, were different.
They weren't, you know, like Columbia was Columbia all over the world.
So we had to deal with that, you know. And then when Zeppelin came over to Atlantic,
(29:58):
it became Warner Brothers.
Big difference, because now your record goes out to all those countries with the same backing.
Whereas we had to deal with Barclays and all these different labels.
It was very, very difficult, because it's never been an exact business.
(30:18):
I mean, there's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that, unless
you look at a documentary you never know right all
2020 and yeah so so at
that point that was a that was a big single and yeah
years later is when the band started to dissolve you've pointed to a reason
that in all the chats i've talked with other artists and in my experiences it's
(30:42):
comes down to ego you're right be one of the one of the killers where at what
point in the journey did Did you start seeing that being,
even if it was a nugget of something that you saw it was going to be?
Well, certainly right there, you know, right there, you know, which was, you know...
Basically, a lot of people don't realize that sometimes your family's interventions
(31:07):
kind of screw up the group, you know.
I mean, certainly a lot of people know that wives screw up groups.
I mean, that's been historically noted, you know.
But sometimes, you know, like families say, well, you know, how come the camera
was on him all the time in the show? Well, maybe he was seeing the lead, that's why.
Well, it should be on you, you know, and all this kind of stuff.
(31:31):
And it gets into your bra, so to speak.
So that was kind of a turning point is that, you know, and again,
I don't mean to, you know, I purposely left a lot of this stuff out of the book
because, you know, who cares, man?
But the bottom line is that the workload was not being split 50-50 anymore.
You know, I mean, the historical precedent is, you know, the lyrics are 50%
(31:57):
and the music is 50%. However, that line was being crossed over by me quite a bit.
So I just felt that it was really unfair for me to give 50%,
you know, to a person who I really felt was not earning the 50%.
Whether I was right or wrong, it didn't sit right with me, you know,
(32:19):
because of whatever reason, you know, that people got to be freestalled caused
a little bit of a problem, you know.
And it caused a big problem later in life because, as I say, you know.
Eddie's philosophy was very different from that. See, I live in Nashville now,
and basically we do a 50-50 down here. You write with somebody.
(32:40):
It doesn't really matter if you did half the lyrics or all the lyrics because
there was a contribution made.
And his thought process was very different. If I write one line, it's 50%.
And we ended up – I said, come on, man. man, that doesn't make any sense,
(33:03):
does it? Yes, it does to him.
So I don't know if you should hear this. I mean, like I say, it's all business.
But it just didn't sit right. You know, I said, come, I'm doing this.
And basically, come to the table, you know.
So it caused a problem. All right, well, we got over it. I mean,
you know, we went by it and we started going on.
But, you know, it just continued until he finally just decided to leave.
(33:27):
And you guys obviously reunited for a few
shows on broadway and i'm really happy to see
that yeah but you know like reunited but you
know it's just a shame man i mean because you know
i give you like brothers you know yeah and
you know your brothers fight you know there's nothing wrong
with that i mean i watched eddie and his brother david fight all the time
(33:48):
you know in the studio but you know
when it comes down to like legalities and things
like that that's crossing the line i feel
with the fact that you know we we did this together
you know we did this together you know and
reality has to set in itself you know so i
i would say it answer your question and as i say you know i'm sure like as it
(34:10):
goes on the airwaves people are gonna you know use it against me but the bottom
line is that's what happened you know i mean you know you get you come to come
to work man yeah i mean you lay that out very clearly in your book as well and do i i I mean,
I kind of skirted the issue, you know, because just, you know.
First of all, I'm embarrassed by it, to tell you the truth, because it's so
(34:34):
prophetic that you start a group, and then you become successful,
and then you destroy the group. I mean, why?
It's almost cliche at this point. I mean, why? I mean, it's so silly.
Okay, it's ego. But in the meantime, a lot of the English groups don't have that ego.
Did you notice that? I don't like you. I don't like you. Well,
(34:56):
let's go out and make millions of dollars. That's right.
That's right. Yeah. It's a good idea.
Totally. And I think it's very cool that you still tour with Gene.
What's that experience been like? Well, it's difficult because of,
you know, like his health, you know.
It's tough. You know, Gene is a really interesting guy.
(35:19):
You know, he kind of took a lot of wrong turns in his life, you know what I'm
saying, which he wrote about in his book, in a book.
And you know as we get
up to later in life you know like the rule of
thumb is i mean you better take care of yourself because if you
don't it's going to be really hard on you if you have you
(35:39):
know problems you know and so that's what's happening it's it's tough but you
see the thing with gene gene has that innate desire to be a rock and roll star
i mean he he from the first First day his mom took him to a concert in Rochester, New York.
That's what I want to do, Mo. That's where I want to be.
(36:02):
I feel that it kind of keeps him alive to have that, you know, come on, man.
Let's go out there and do it, you know? And I think without that,
you know, I don't know, you know, because, you know, he has to struggle,
you know, just to get there sometimes.
Well, mentally, do you feel it's the same way for you? I mean,
(36:23):
you seem to love playing. You seem to love writing. Oh, yeah. But creating, is that?
We're all like that. I mean, you know, Ringo's still on the road.
What the heck? because he doesn't need it or he doesn't need any money you
know he's he just he's a
rock and roll hand man he wants to go out there and
play and you know a lot of
the older artists it's not just the older artists i
(36:45):
mean most people who play music they get hooked
you know this is i like this let's
do it what what is still what's still inspiring
you when you write i mean you wrote five new songs on your
album what is well there's a
i guess there's a creative part of all
of us you know and and and and that to me
(37:06):
is the fountain of youth i mean i far if
i can keep that going i can pretty much stay you know relevant you know needed
you know i mean it's one thing to play you know songs that you did 40 years
ago it's another thing to play songs that you just did and i i I moved to Tennessee
(37:26):
for that reason, you know.
It's very alive and well down here.
Are you still writing music regularly?
Not as regularly as I always liked to because, you know, it's a whole different
scene now where, you know, we used to have one or two guys.
You know, now you've got five or six guys in the studio, you know, in the writing room.
(37:48):
And, you know, wait a second, we're dividing this five?
You know, it's kind of different You know, and then there's all kinds of politics involved.
It's kind of difficult to get through the Morass of To get this to the artist or the producer,
You know, it used to be a lot more free But, you know, people have lawsuits
(38:13):
all the time Now, oh, I'm hating that song And now you're using it And I don't get credit for it So,
you know, the flow of songs songs
has kind of slowed down a little bit because of the
you know and sharing there my god they feel like
a rhythm yeah i
mean okay i guess there's a lot of rhythms but that's not a song the rhythm
(38:37):
is not oh yes it is is it well let's go to court and find out i mean court court
court court all right we're in a litigious society it's really sad man come
on you know i'd rather It hit me in the face.
Like they did in the 1600s. It hit me in the wallet.
(38:57):
A couple of questions before we wrap. And Felix, I really appreciate your time.
Oh, well, thank you, man. I appreciate talking to you. All your great stories.
Tremendous, man. You worked with Laura Nero on a few albums.
And in the book, you mention one of the records you worked with,
the Muscle Shoals band, and you worked with Dwayne Allman.
(39:19):
And you don't get much into it, but the Muscle Shoals band, they were on the
great Aretha records, Dusty Springfield, all the great Atlantic stuff.
Anything you could share about those experiences in the studio,
working with Dwayne or working with?
Well, Dwayne was in and out pretty quickly. You know, like Skyman,
man, he had this problem that I think Atlantic didn't want him to do sessions,
(39:41):
so he had to change his name.
Yeah, he came in, man. He did his thing. He was so good.
You know, like he worked with Clapton on Layla and those things.
I mean, you know, really talented, talented.
See, Atlantic, what they did is they, that's another story.
Tell what Atlantic Basically what Atlantic
was aware of Is that a good rhythm section Makes a great record So they went
(40:05):
around In Georgia And they tried to get the Memphis guys You know the proper
and those guys But they couldn't quite get them But the Muscle Shovel guys They
had a rhythm section They had a sound.
And it was a good sound And they were talented
And so they adopted these
people brought them in to do the tracks for their artists
(40:27):
as you mentioned the staple singers and marie you
know i think roberta flack i
mean but but you see with with laura laura nero was i hate to use the word eccentric
but she was very different you know and by that i mean that you know we used
to tell her you know laura some of us would like to make money on this project
(40:50):
you You know what I'm saying?
You know, maybe you should adhere by some rules.
No rules. She had no rules. Whatever she wanted to do, she did.
And the Muscle Shoals guys, they were all from down south.
Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. You want us to stop playing here and slow down?
Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. So it was such a pleasant experience because it was
(41:14):
none of that, what the hell is she doing? You know what I mean? Yeah.
What do you mean I got to play more green? You know, she was saying,
it's a little bit too red. You got to make it a little bit more green.
And, you know, I think if you translate that into music, there's a reason behind what, but me.
So they were just perfect, you know, and I miss a lot of those guys.
(41:37):
They're not with us anymore, but, you know, they were gentlemen.
They were Southern gentlemen.
And I think that's the one thing that I think should be, besides their talent, known.
Amazing. Yeah. Amazing guys.
(42:18):
You know i mean like i say like you know like benny king and ray charles and you know i i mean i,
fat's domino little richard you know no i i basically had to you know kind of
pick up my myself because these guys were you know they're pretty busy you know
but the the knowledge that i got from just listening to their records you know
(42:42):
and this is one of the things i try to give.
You know, sometimes people ask, well, what can I do to make it in the music business?
I would say, like, you know, pick up some some artists that you really admire.
Learn, learn what they're doing. You know, go out and play it in public or play it privately.
But learn what they're doing in terms of like the chops.
(43:03):
You know, like there's a number of things right now.
And I think it's on Amazon. on, there's these documentaries with people who
are making music, like with Steely Dan, like Michael O'Mardian.
Take a look and see what these guys are about. Chuck Rainey just did one for them as well.
See what they did to get where they are, besides study.
(43:25):
I mean, you've got to study. If you go in there into this world,
the more knowledge you bring in there with you, the better it's going to be
for you. But there's nothing like playing experiences.
We get locked up with our computers these days. And, you know,
it's me and my box, me and my computer.
You know, well, that's not how it is, man.
(43:47):
Bring it out into the public, and it'll do you a lot of good.
Amazing. Well, Felix, thank you. Thank you so much. Congrats on the new record.
Thanks, man. Congrats on the book.
I appreciate both of them. I appreciate everything you've done for music history.
So thank you, brother. Well, Scott, I appreciate what you're doing, because like I say,
this is a way for us to get out into the world here these days so
(44:10):
thank you for bringing us out into the world cheers thank
you felix okay hey take care so be safe out there thank you you too i'll see
you all right see you thank you for listening to the legends podcast by all
day vinyl if you enjoyed this episode please rate it share it subscribe and
follow us and check us out at all day vinyl on instagram and youtube.
Thank you for listening. This is the Legends Podcast by All Day Vinyl.
I'm your host, Scott Dettelson.
After you finish this episode, please subscribe, rate it, and check us out on
Instagram and YouTube at All Day Vinyl.
Today, I'm excited to speak with a true legend, a member of the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame, Songwriters Hall of Fame, Musicians Hall of Fame,
Grammy Hall of Fame, and my favorite, the Hammond B3 Hall of Fame,
(00:21):
the Hammond Hall of Fame.
He wrote some of the most iconic songs of the 1960s. Groovin',
How Can I Be Sure, People Got to Be Free.
Amazing. Beautiful Morning and so many more. I'm here with the great Felix Cavallari
of the Rascals. Thank you, Felix. Thank you for joining.
My pleasure. Good to see you, Scott. Good to see you too, man.
(00:42):
So let's start. You have a new album called Then and Now. So let's start with
the now and then we'll take it back to the then.
Yeah. The new album came out late last year, five original songs,
five covers, old soul songs that were, you know, influential or favorites of yours.
There's Clarence Carter, Slip Away, Benny King, Spanish Harlem, some really great ones.
(01:06):
Now, what is the theme behind the five that you chose?
Because it's a well of an infinite amount of great old soul R&B.
Why these five? Well, that's a good question because, like I say,
you know, we came up with this idea to do five old songs that influenced you
and then five new songs that you write.
(01:27):
Very, very difficult finding five old songs out of out of 5000 that influenced you, you know? Yeah.
So it really was difficult making a choice because, like I say, you know, I grew up.
Near New York City when Alan Freed brought rock and roll from Cleveland to New York.
So I was actually present at the beginning of what we know today as pop music, rock and roll.
(01:52):
I heard all these phenomenal artists.
And in case people don't know it, I mean, there was no auto-tune in those days.
You basically either sang correctly or you didn't record.
Chord so that the talent was just amazing so
to pick five songs was very difficult but that's
(02:15):
that's pretty much what my my co-producer and
i mike severs who's also my guitarist we came up with five and were these singles
that you had known as as a kid or as a younger man yeah you know these these
were songs that you know like really like you know i i think you could probably
For the most part, like you can point to the artists.
(02:37):
You know, like Benny King, tremendous influence on me because of the fact that
his voice was just unbelievable, you know?
And he was also one of the nicest men I ever met in my life, you know?
My only regret is that I never got a chance to do a duet or something with him.
He was really, really special.
So pick a song. Okay, Spanish horn, but there's so many Benny Kings.
(03:00):
And then Ray Charles. I mean, as a piano player, when I heard Ray Charles,
it changed everything because I was playing classical music and I heard this
gospel R&B pianist and I never had heard anything like that.
And that has influenced my whole my whole life, you know.
(03:23):
So to find a Ray Charles song is also not that easy because there's so many.
So on and on and on. That's how I did it. And then we have a couple of obscure
ones in there, like the one with Bobby Moore.
That's just because, uh, you know, we live down South now and that was a big hit down South.
I don't think it was a big hit up North, but Mike knew it because he's from
(03:45):
South Carolina and it's a cool song.
You know, the interesting thing about that is that, uh.
What do you call percy from the from the led zeppelin man
he just robert plant just did an album with allison
krauss and he did that same song so amazing yeah you there was no uh you didn't
know that no i had no idea but he did it he did it kind of like a newer type
(04:09):
of style i kind of copied emulated what they did searching for love is that
it's really a cool song i love Love it.
And this goes back a lot to, you know, Good Lovin' and finding the really cool
singles, picking out the really great soul songs that you could interpret.
Exactly. Yeah. Because in the old days, that's what was demanded of you to work in clubs.
(04:33):
No originals. They didn't want originals for many, many years because,
you know, their whole thing was to bring people there, make them dance, make them drink.
And the way to do that was to do you know
covers or what we call top 40 in those days you
know and so they demanded that you do covers so i we had to find you know songs
(04:55):
that were on the radio and i had to go and buy the 45s to prove like for example
uh good loving and mustang sally look these are records man you know we didn't
write these you know i wish i did.
The first time you heard Good Lovin' was that on the radio Yeah,
No it was WWF I believe in New York City It was an R&B station That was a group
(05:21):
that I also liked Called the Olympics,
But I come to find out that that had been around A while before them as well
You know But when we took it And we put it into a live set From the first time
we played it People just jumped out of their seats and danced,
So, you know, you just never know.
(05:41):
You know that was a song when you first heard it that you could interpret and
you could really do something with?
Yeah, and sort of the Atlantic. When we were doing that live when they found
us out in Long Island at the barge.
That's one of the songs that they, you know, they wanted us to release as a single.
And they were absolutely right, because it was a number one record instantly, you know.
(06:02):
So good luck, good loving, good luck.
And you worked on that in the studio with Arif Martin and Tom Dowd,
is that right? Right. Correct. Yeah. Which was what?
I actually have so many questions about this. But give me give me like a little
piece, a slice of the moment of what it was like being in the studio early days
(06:23):
with these two, you know, soon to be legends and you soon to be legend.
How what is this? What is that experience like?
You know, I had a little experience in a recording studio, but not much,
you know, so it's a whole new environment.
Environment so to walk into atlantic records
studio was kind of like you know
(06:44):
if you come from new york it would be the yankee dugout
you know it was like oh
my god do you know who's been in this room right
here i mean seriously we're talking about general coltrane
ray charles the drifters you know
all these phenomenal it was
like awe-inspiring you know and you're in this place
(07:05):
where this music was made you know and
atlantic they just
made they made you feel like
you're here to make good music okay that's
what we're here for we want to make great music and you just felt that the moment
you walked in and arif was it was was not a proven entity by any any means you
(07:28):
had you know he came from turkey and he was like what they call an anr man they
They called him Tommy Dowd.
I knew who he was because, you know, I bought all these records and his name
was on them, mostly as an engineer.
But I had no idea of the extent of this man's talent.
So to walk in with these gentlemen and to have to record was very interesting
(07:54):
because one of the things that I did when we were signed is I really wanted to produce ourselves.
Ourselves i didn't want anybody taking over you know
and as you say that's in my book we had to turn down
some really powerful people who wanted
to to assign us to get that picture to do
it right it was wrong yeah but all the other labels that had made offers to
(08:18):
us they would not allow us to be in charge literally in charge and that's an
atlantic dig so there's a lot of pressure but you see one of the things I learned from these two.
Giant set was they make you
right at ease you know i mean immediately you
knew these guys were there to make good music
(08:40):
and let's get to work you know and a
reef one of the things i really learned from him was how
to handle you know crazy young artists like
us you know he was very tactful and that's
important you know you create an environment for them
to make music and that's what happened that's how
we did it amazing and you were the
(09:02):
rascals were the first white band signed
to atlantic records right yeah pretty much on
the red and black label you know which was pretty cool
that was really cool and when you
were when you were recording did you
have any experiences with some of the the atlantic
artists at that time with this would be wasn't picket it
(09:23):
yeah i mean oh sure because you know
atlantic was not like a real sophisticated type of
corporate venture yet you know they became that
way when when they became warner brothers so as
a result there would be people walking in the in the halls that were like giant
legends you know and you see these guys walking by and it was just amazing because
(09:48):
you know like at first you know like Like, you know, you're in awe of these people.
I mean, Sam and Dave and Wilson Pickett, you know, the phenomenal jazz players, Hubert Laws.
These guys would be walking right by the studio, you know.
And there was no, like, really restricted areas.
Like in the Columbia studio, big signs up, recording, do not enter, et cetera, et cetera.
(10:14):
So people mingled, you know. And that really, really, really helped because
a lot of times I would see some of these guys going by.
And if there were a jazz soloist, I'd say, hey, you guys want to play a solo
on some of our stuff, man? You know? And what a treat that was.
I mean, so, you know, as I say, the entire Atlantic world for me was like a magic kingdom.
(10:40):
You know, I really enjoyed it. And I've always been thankful that we've been able to do it.
Amazing and you put out some amazing records with them yeah but
for the first record was titled and labeled as
young rascals obviously yeah the rascals and as a record collector somebody's
been tons of record stores i have noticed sometimes that it's filed under young
(11:01):
rascals i know other rascals so tell me the story of why it was young rascals
and then yeah got to what it is well you you know,
basically we didn't really have a name, you know, and the way the story goes
is a fellow by the name of soupy sales gave us the name, the rascals,
you know, which is a long story to make it kind of short, you know.
(11:26):
We wanted to be discovered, so we went to his television station,
and he had a hit record, and told him, look, if you need a backup band, we're here.
And he said, all these years, I never knew I needed a backup band.
I said, well, you've got a hit record, man.
You need a backup band. He said, what's your name? We didn't have a name.
So after a series of jokes, he said, well, the Rascals.
(11:50):
So we used the Rascals. Well, okay, well,
I think our record started coming out Just before Good Lovin' We're in California
going to work at the Whiskey A Go-Go And we get a phone call from our manager
Can't use the name Rascals Wow, what happened?
Well, there's a group called the Harmonica Rascals They used to be on Milton
(12:13):
Berle's show Which is, you know, a long time ago,
And they're going to be a problem So I, meaning Sid,
changed the name to young well you
know the name of a group is kind of like naming your kid you know i mean basically
you know like it's kind of person you know and groups take a long time so i
(12:34):
i didn't like it from the beginning i don't know if anybody else liked it but
it caused a lot of confusion.
Because there was a television show at that time and
so people would say hey did that
dog really have a circle around his eye as the
little rascals that was the inference that kind
of bugged me you know and so when we had our
(12:56):
hit records i said you know what man let's let's just change it not thinking
that they would be moving us from bin to bin in the record stores not thinking
there'll be a little bit of confusion you know thinking was i don't know you
know you're living in the moment you're a young guy you know what i mean like
you're allowed to make some,
crazy decisions but anyway so we became the rams
(13:19):
i want to touch that's i that soupy sales stuff's
amazing and you're young at you're young at that time how do you have the balls
to just go up to somebody like this and have the confidence that your music
and that you could handle this where does where does that come from at that
time well i don't know man i mean that's just like one of the things about coming
from new york you know when you come from new New York,
(13:41):
you've got chutzpah, they call it. Yeah, right.
So, you know, we said, we've got to get discovered. We also did the same with
Cousin Brucie, you know.
We stormed into WABC, you know. We said, we've got to get discovered.
What are we going to do? Well, let's grab Cousin Brucie and bring him down to the club.
And we found out he was about 6'4". We said, excuse me. Yeah.
(14:03):
Can we talk to you? You know, you're trying to find a way to get discovered, you know.
And fortunately, like he, you know, has been a friend for all those years.
And Soupy, rest his soul, he was always in our corner. The thing that Soupy
liked about it is that we laughed at everything he said.
So he said, wow, this could work out. Sometimes I go and no one laughs.
(14:27):
But if the band laughs, at least I feel a little better.
He was great. He was a great, great man. Incredible.
Yeah, he was a great guy. And you've talked about in the book and in the past
the Beatles' influence on you and songwriting.
And your manager was Sid Bernstein, who was one of the first people to bring
the Beatles to America and to Shea Stadium.
(14:47):
And I want to ask you, because I know you were at the Shea Stadium show, which is legendary.
My father went there. Oh, wow.
And it's probably one of the highlights of his life. He's probably listening to Yo Dad.
Dad so tell me tell me about tell me about tell me about that experience of
being being there as a young band and experiencing that Beatlemania what that
(15:11):
does for you well I mean uh there's two parts to the story first part being
exactly what you said you know there's 50,000 people.
Screaming you know they wouldn't
stop you know I mean you could barely hear the
person right next to you much less the band
who was about to play the helicopter you heard you that was about it
(15:33):
you know i had witnessed them in
europe i i think you know from my original uh
a trip over there with joey d uh i i
was able to hear the beatles before they came to the united states and the same
thing occurred although that was in a club atmosphere you know there was a a
non-stop shriek from the audience because it was just unbelievable, you know, and.
(16:01):
The second part of the story is that our manager put a sign up on the scoreboard.
The Raspels are coming. The Raspels are coming. The Raspels are coming.
And, you know, we didn't know about it, you know. But when we saw it,
we said, wow, how cool is this? How cool is this?
And, of course, you know, being in the dugout, we waved, you know.
(16:21):
And Brian Epstein did not like that at all.
You know, he was not happy about that. That, as a matter of fact,
he threatened to cancel the show if that wasn't immediately taken down.
So all of these different things, you know, attributed to an evening.
Your father will tell you, it was kind of really special.
You know, it was kind of like, well, I'm here. You know, it's kind of like Super Bowl, you know.
(16:44):
Yeah. But it was over pretty quickly also, you know.
But it was quite an experience.
Did you get an opportunity to meet them during that? No, no, no, no.
They were in and out. they were on the field and then
they were gone you know they didn't I don't think
they stayed I don't think they went to a
dressing room Brian did you know their manager but
(17:05):
I just remember them they were gone and years later through your yogi practice
with Swami George Harrison became a confidant or somebody who helped you in
that path absolutely yeah well we got to know them a number of times because
of the as I say first in Europe,
with Joey D and then second with, with Sid Bernstein having press conferences
(17:29):
and just kind of like, you know, it was a little bit of a, you know,
a mix up between the three of us, the four of us, five of us, you know?
And so you got to know them and they were really very good guys.
I mean, they were interesting people, you know, like.
I later toured with Ringo, who was a great, great guy.
(17:50):
But, you know, one time, you know, I said to George, because I really wanted
to know about his involvement with the Maharishi.
I was about to get involved with a spiritual venture with a Swami, Swami Satchidananda.
And I just wanted to ask him a couple of questions. And during that conversation,
(18:10):
you know, I just happened to mention, I said, do you have any idea how big you guys are?
I mean, do you have any idea what kind of a weight?
In other words, if you move three inches to the right, the globe kind of shifts a little bit.
And, you know, George was a very introspective kind of guy. You know,
he really was a very intelligent man.
(18:31):
And he just looked down and he said, yeah.
In other words, hey, dude, I got to carry that around with me every day.
You know? And that's true. When I was on the road with Ringo,
as I was 97, you know, we did the Ringo All-Stars.
For him to go to a movie, we had the whole theater. He had to basically have
(18:52):
it open privately for him.
So we would go in and we'd be the only ones in the theater. That's a little difficult.
I mean, it sounds like fun, but I don't know, man. You know? Interesting.
And around that time, when the Beatles were inspiring you, you started writing
your own music with Eddie. Eddie, and one of the first big hits of that was
(19:15):
Reuven, is that right? Right, yes.
Can you tell me a little about the writing sessions of how you and Eddie began on that?
Basically, because the Beatles and Bob Dylan, the Kinks, Stones,
Lovers Pool, began this new venture writing their own material.
(19:38):
I said, well, let's do this. Let's try it. You know what I mean?
So, you know, I hadn't been writing all my life, you know, but it's just that,
as I say, we couldn't use them.
You know, now, because we had this number one smash Ola, you know,
good loving, we had a little wait.
So I said, well, let's try it, you know? So I brought the songs in,
(19:58):
you know, and basically I wanted to create a, uh-oh, uh-oh, where are you?
There you are. I wanted to create a Lennon and McCartney situation,
so I asked Eddie, who I felt was really good at the verses.
In other words, I would give him the subject, I'd write all the music,
(20:19):
and basically I'd write mostly like, this is what the song is about.
And then he would fill in the verses.
And I just found his words to be a lot more flowery than mine.
I was a little bit too serious, I thought.
So for a while, we had this collaboration, which worked. But,
you know, I wrote most of them myself and brought them in to him.
(20:43):
And unfortunately, you know, like it didn't stay like that because I think, you know.
If you don't really enjoy the process, it becomes W-O-R-K.
And it never was work for me. This was like a pleasure for me to do.
I think Eddie kind of got bogged down a little bit, you know.
And I later found out that he asked his brother to help him out with lyrics,
(21:06):
which we never knew, you know. That's a wild story.
And, you know, you don't know. And then in those days, there was a two album a year minimum.
I mean, you know, like we did a lot of albums. Beatles did a lot of albums.
Later years, as the artists became more and more and more powerful,
and the gap in between albums releases would, you know, it would take maybe
(21:28):
two or three years. They wouldn't do an album in two years.
But when we did it, it was, you know, you had to do two a year. It's a lot of work.
And as I say, if you enjoy that work, great.
If you don't, then it becomes difficult, you know.
So very interesting, you know, adventures.
(21:48):
Absolutely. And when you have a song like Groovin' and you bring it to the band,
you bring it to Dino and you bring it to Gene, is it fully formed or was it
the type of thing where you then flesh it fully out before you record it?
Well, basically what I did is I established a relationship with Arif Martin.
He actually took a rental, I believe it was, in my old hometown,
(22:13):
which was Pelham, New York.
I would go over to his home And I'd show him This is what I did man This is
what I have And he would sit down at the piano with me And say that's good I
like this one How about this try this And the try this was like Oh my god,
How cool is that Because one of the things about Arif As I mentioned earlier
(22:37):
Was this joy of making music This was not a job,
He didn't have to invite me me over to his home to go through the productions.
He loved it, you know, and you could tell. And his enthusiasm is just the same
as you would have if you're a young person in a band.
(22:58):
It was exactly the same, you know. And so by the time we got to the studio,
we really kind of knew what we were going to do, you know, pretty much.
You know, as I say, sometimes when we get to the studio, lyrics would be complete.
So we had a little bit of a backlog of tracks and we had to catch up with the lyrics.
(23:19):
But that was just the way it was But musically Our band basically With the exception
of the bass Which happened later Because I played the original bass On organ.
And Arif said one day Look, you know, the sound is getting more and more sophisticated,
There's a group around here King Curtis' band And there's a bass player around
(23:42):
here His name is Chuck Rainey And why don't we invite him in Well Well,
fortunately, we invited him in for Groovin'.
Yeah. And, you know, to fall in love in a studio, it was an amazing,
just an amazing relationship from day one, you know, because he was a phenomenal bass player, you know.
(24:06):
And much as I tried with my left hand and my foot, I couldn't do what he did.
I mean, it was impossible. so now we had
the fourth so-called member in
the studio but everybody else gene dino myself
and eddie that's it we didn't we didn't bring
anybody else in except for to solo you know
(24:26):
like for example some of the horn players that were walking in
halls so the sessions were a joyous
occasion for the most part at least to me i mean
yeah it was work but you know making music that
you just created and hearing it back on
these wonderful speakers you know you you
just say like wow is this
(24:49):
really happening you know is this really really taking place and then as it
blossomed you know and we had great voices i mean you know eddie and and then
later we brought his brother in who was a great singer david yeah it was just
a magical event and and and the secretaries see See,
the Atlantic Studios were right adjacent to the offices in those days.
(25:10):
It wasn't a big corporate venture.
You know, the secretaries would come to the door of the studio and they'd kind
of like start dancing and stuff.
Like, you know, okay, man, we got something here, you know? Wow. Plus, what fun.
I mean, like I said, it was just a blast.
That sounds like an amazing time. It was an amazing experience, you know, as I say. Yeah.
(25:32):
You know, we're so lucky to have been part of that family. Yeah, absolutely.
And you had really amazing songs that you wrote. Beautiful, Beautiful Morning, How Can I Be Sure.
But I want to talk about one in particular that Bruce Springsteen called the
definitive of his generation.
And it's a remarkable song, People Gotta Be Free. Yeah.
(25:53):
Well, that was an interesting song because, you know, as most people probably
know, you know, your life experiences come out in your music, you know.
And, you know, like if you're going through changes, you know,
that comes out in your music more and more, more and more and more.
That was happening, too.
But this this was an experience that happened to, you know, my personal life.
(26:14):
I was doing Robert Kennedy's campaign.
You know, I was, you know, like just looking for a big change that we could perhaps make.
And it was this young man who espoused a lot of the beliefs that I had in those days.
And I was seeing this lady Who was
a part of the campaign Who was actually out there
(26:34):
When that horrible assassination Happened And
in those days you know We didn't have the social media
We didn't have like the internet I had like a short wave radio And I was actually
on vacation And I heard this assassination That happened in Los Angeles I don't
know I mean it just hit me You know know, it's kind of like, wow,
(26:58):
you know, everything's going to stop here, you know, everything that we've been
working on, everything, and so it came out in a song,
you know, it came out in a thought, came out in a plea of what the hell is going
on here, you know, which Marvin Gaye already did,
what's going on, well, I don't know what was going on, but, you know,
(27:21):
well, I wonder if people know where we're at.
I wonder if they, maybe they think we're part of this.
Kind of what's going on today. No, let's make sure that they know where we're
at. This is where we're at.
All the world over, so easy to see. People everywhere just got to be free. End of story.
And it became like an obsession. You know, got to do this.
(27:45):
Brought it back to New York. Record company said, what are you doing?
Why are you guys rocking the boat? I said, what boat?
You know, we're not rocking anything. thing just you're just telling people
how we feel ah it's not a good idea don't do it you know,
and i had a fight with them you know i had a fight with jerry jerry wexler you know who,
(28:08):
was a cantankerous man and you know fortunately we
had uh like i said we had so so on paper creative control but we're young kids
you know i'm saying and these guys were grown men and was their label so we
went at odds all the time fortunately a lot of people helped us out you know
a lot of people on the staff like some of the uh some of the other a and r people.
(28:31):
They they they they say man that's a good record
man you know jerry you better pay me better pay attention this is good but that's
what happens behind the scenes it could have not gone out at all you know and
instead it became a number one record not only in the united states but in all
the places in the world that at that time were oppressed you know and that really meant something,
(28:55):
because yeah you know you're doing something besides just you
know putting a record out and trying to you know attract the flies
you know it's just you know it there's a reason that we're here on earth you
know and uh maybe that was our reason you know is to say something you know
and boy i tell you that it's still needed man i mean it's just ridiculous people
(29:15):
they don't understand that You know, like we're all created equal.
That's what it says, you know, when you see that Statue of Liberty.
I mean, I don't get it. I don't get it.
Yeah. Did you get to tour in any of those areas or overseas or abroad?
We did to a degree, but it was difficult in those days because,
(29:35):
you know, as I said earlier, Atlantic was not Warner Brothers yet.
So the record companies in most of the free world, most of the world, were different.
They weren't, you know, like Columbia was Columbia all over the world.
So we had to deal with that, you know. And then when Zeppelin came over to Atlantic,
(29:58):
it became Warner Brothers.
Big difference, because now your record goes out to all those countries with the same backing.
Whereas we had to deal with Barclays and all these different labels.
It was very, very difficult, because it's never been an exact business.
(30:18):
I mean, there's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that, unless
you look at a documentary you never know right all
2020 and yeah so so at
that point that was a that was a big single and yeah
years later is when the band started to dissolve you've pointed to a reason
that in all the chats i've talked with other artists and in my experiences it's
(30:42):
comes down to ego you're right be one of the one of the killers where at what
point in the journey did Did you start seeing that being,
even if it was a nugget of something that you saw it was going to be?
Well, certainly right there, you know, right there, you know, which was, you know...
Basically, a lot of people don't realize that sometimes your family's interventions
(31:07):
kind of screw up the group, you know.
I mean, certainly a lot of people know that wives screw up groups.
I mean, that's been historically noted, you know.
But sometimes, you know, like families say, well, you know, how come the camera
was on him all the time in the show? Well, maybe he was seeing the lead, that's why.
Well, it should be on you, you know, and all this kind of stuff.
(31:31):
And it gets into your bra, so to speak.
So that was kind of a turning point is that, you know, and again,
I don't mean to, you know, I purposely left a lot of this stuff out of the book
because, you know, who cares, man?
But the bottom line is that the workload was not being split 50-50 anymore.
You know, I mean, the historical precedent is, you know, the lyrics are 50%
(31:57):
and the music is 50%. However, that line was being crossed over by me quite a bit.
So I just felt that it was really unfair for me to give 50%,
you know, to a person who I really felt was not earning the 50%.
Whether I was right or wrong, it didn't sit right with me, you know,
(32:19):
because of whatever reason, you know, that people got to be freestalled caused
a little bit of a problem, you know.
And it caused a big problem later in life because, as I say, you know.
Eddie's philosophy was very different from that. See, I live in Nashville now,
and basically we do a 50-50 down here. You write with somebody.
(32:40):
It doesn't really matter if you did half the lyrics or all the lyrics because
there was a contribution made.
And his thought process was very different. If I write one line, it's 50%.
And we ended up – I said, come on, man. man, that doesn't make any sense,
(33:03):
does it? Yes, it does to him.
So I don't know if you should hear this. I mean, like I say, it's all business.
But it just didn't sit right. You know, I said, come, I'm doing this.
And basically, come to the table, you know.
So it caused a problem. All right, well, we got over it. I mean,
you know, we went by it and we started going on.
But, you know, it just continued until he finally just decided to leave.
(33:27):
And you guys obviously reunited for a few
shows on broadway and i'm really happy to see
that yeah but you know like reunited but you
know it's just a shame man i mean because you know
i give you like brothers you know yeah and
you know your brothers fight you know there's nothing wrong
with that i mean i watched eddie and his brother david fight all the time
(33:48):
you know in the studio but you know
when it comes down to like legalities and things
like that that's crossing the line i feel
with the fact that you know we we did this together
you know we did this together you know and
reality has to set in itself you know so i
i would say it answer your question and as i say you know i'm sure like as it
(34:10):
goes on the airwaves people are gonna you know use it against me but the bottom
line is that's what happened you know i mean you know you get you come to come
to work man yeah i mean you lay that out very clearly in your book as well and do i i I mean,
I kind of skirted the issue, you know, because just, you know.
First of all, I'm embarrassed by it, to tell you the truth, because it's so
(34:34):
prophetic that you start a group, and then you become successful,
and then you destroy the group. I mean, why?
It's almost cliche at this point. I mean, why? I mean, it's so silly.
Okay, it's ego. But in the meantime, a lot of the English groups don't have that ego.
Did you notice that? I don't like you. I don't like you. Well,
(34:56):
let's go out and make millions of dollars. That's right.
That's right. Yeah. It's a good idea.
Totally. And I think it's very cool that you still tour with Gene.
What's that experience been like? Well, it's difficult because of,
you know, like his health, you know.
It's tough. You know, Gene is a really interesting guy.
(35:19):
You know, he kind of took a lot of wrong turns in his life, you know what I'm
saying, which he wrote about in his book, in a book.
And you know as we get
up to later in life you know like the rule of
thumb is i mean you better take care of yourself because if you
don't it's going to be really hard on you if you have you
(35:39):
know problems you know and so that's what's happening it's it's tough but you
see the thing with gene gene has that innate desire to be a rock and roll star
i mean he he from the first First day his mom took him to a concert in Rochester, New York.
That's what I want to do, Mo. That's where I want to be.
(36:02):
I feel that it kind of keeps him alive to have that, you know, come on, man.
Let's go out there and do it, you know? And I think without that,
you know, I don't know, you know, because, you know, he has to struggle,
you know, just to get there sometimes.
Well, mentally, do you feel it's the same way for you? I mean,
(36:23):
you seem to love playing. You seem to love writing. Oh, yeah. But creating, is that?
We're all like that. I mean, you know, Ringo's still on the road.
What the heck? because he doesn't need it or he doesn't need any money you
know he's he just he's a
rock and roll hand man he wants to go out there and
play and you know a lot of
the older artists it's not just the older artists i
(36:45):
mean most people who play music they get hooked
you know this is i like this let's
do it what what is still what's still inspiring
you when you write i mean you wrote five new songs on your
album what is well there's a
i guess there's a creative part of all
of us you know and and and and that to me
(37:06):
is the fountain of youth i mean i far if
i can keep that going i can pretty much stay you know relevant you know needed
you know i mean it's one thing to play you know songs that you did 40 years
ago it's another thing to play songs that you just did and i i I moved to Tennessee
(37:26):
for that reason, you know.
It's very alive and well down here.
Are you still writing music regularly?
Not as regularly as I always liked to because, you know, it's a whole different
scene now where, you know, we used to have one or two guys.
You know, now you've got five or six guys in the studio, you know, in the writing room.
(37:48):
And, you know, wait a second, we're dividing this five?
You know, it's kind of different You know, and then there's all kinds of politics involved.
It's kind of difficult to get through the Morass of To get this to the artist or the producer,
You know, it used to be a lot more free But, you know, people have lawsuits
(38:13):
all the time Now, oh, I'm hating that song And now you're using it And I don't get credit for it So,
you know, the flow of songs songs
has kind of slowed down a little bit because of the
you know and sharing there my god they feel like
a rhythm yeah i
mean okay i guess there's a lot of rhythms but that's not a song the rhythm
(38:37):
is not oh yes it is is it well let's go to court and find out i mean court court
court court all right we're in a litigious society it's really sad man come
on you know i'd rather It hit me in the face.
Like they did in the 1600s. It hit me in the wallet.
(38:57):
A couple of questions before we wrap. And Felix, I really appreciate your time.
Oh, well, thank you, man. I appreciate talking to you. All your great stories.
Tremendous, man. You worked with Laura Nero on a few albums.
And in the book, you mention one of the records you worked with,
the Muscle Shoals band, and you worked with Dwayne Allman.
(39:19):
And you don't get much into it, but the Muscle Shoals band, they were on the
great Aretha records, Dusty Springfield, all the great Atlantic stuff.
Anything you could share about those experiences in the studio,
working with Dwayne or working with?
Well, Dwayne was in and out pretty quickly. You know, like Skyman,
man, he had this problem that I think Atlantic didn't want him to do sessions,
(39:41):
so he had to change his name.
Yeah, he came in, man. He did his thing. He was so good.
You know, like he worked with Clapton on Layla and those things.
I mean, you know, really talented, talented.
See, Atlantic, what they did is they, that's another story.
Tell what Atlantic Basically what Atlantic
was aware of Is that a good rhythm section Makes a great record So they went
(40:05):
around In Georgia And they tried to get the Memphis guys You know the proper
and those guys But they couldn't quite get them But the Muscle Shovel guys They
had a rhythm section They had a sound.
And it was a good sound And they were talented
And so they adopted these
people brought them in to do the tracks for their artists
(40:27):
as you mentioned the staple singers and marie you
know i think roberta flack i
mean but but you see with with laura laura nero was i hate to use the word eccentric
but she was very different you know and by that i mean that you know we used
to tell her you know laura some of us would like to make money on this project
(40:50):
you You know what I'm saying?
You know, maybe you should adhere by some rules.
No rules. She had no rules. Whatever she wanted to do, she did.
And the Muscle Shoals guys, they were all from down south.
Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. You want us to stop playing here and slow down?
Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. So it was such a pleasant experience because it was
(41:14):
none of that, what the hell is she doing? You know what I mean? Yeah.
What do you mean I got to play more green? You know, she was saying,
it's a little bit too red. You got to make it a little bit more green.
And, you know, I think if you translate that into music, there's a reason behind what, but me.
So they were just perfect, you know, and I miss a lot of those guys.
(41:37):
They're not with us anymore, but, you know, they were gentlemen.
They were Southern gentlemen.
And I think that's the one thing that I think should be, besides their talent, known.
Amazing. Yeah. Amazing guys.
(42:18):
You know i mean like i say like you know like benny king and ray charles and you know i i mean i,
fat's domino little richard you know no i i basically had to you know kind of
pick up my myself because these guys were you know they're pretty busy you know
but the the knowledge that i got from just listening to their records you know
(42:42):
and this is one of the things i try to give.
You know, sometimes people ask, well, what can I do to make it in the music business?
I would say, like, you know, pick up some some artists that you really admire.
Learn, learn what they're doing. You know, go out and play it in public or play it privately.
But learn what they're doing in terms of like the chops.
(43:03):
You know, like there's a number of things right now.
And I think it's on Amazon. on, there's these documentaries with people who
are making music, like with Steely Dan, like Michael O'Mardian.
Take a look and see what these guys are about. Chuck Rainey just did one for them as well.
See what they did to get where they are, besides study.
(43:25):
I mean, you've got to study. If you go in there into this world,
the more knowledge you bring in there with you, the better it's going to be
for you. But there's nothing like playing experiences.
We get locked up with our computers these days. And, you know,
it's me and my box, me and my computer.
You know, well, that's not how it is, man.
(43:47):
Bring it out into the public, and it'll do you a lot of good.
Amazing. Well, Felix, thank you. Thank you so much. Congrats on the new record.
Thanks, man. Congrats on the book.
I appreciate both of them. I appreciate everything you've done for music history.
So thank you, brother. Well, Scott, I appreciate what you're doing, because like I say,
this is a way for us to get out into the world here these days so
(44:10):
thank you for bringing us out into the world cheers thank
you felix okay hey take care so be safe out there thank you you too i'll see
you all right see you thank you for listening to the legends podcast by all
day vinyl if you enjoyed this episode please rate it share it subscribe and
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