December 5, 2023 • 20 mins
Today’s question comes from a viewer who’s wondering how early puppies need to be separated from their littermates to avoid the dreaded “Littermate Syndrome.”
In this episode, I tackle that question and discuss key issues around “littermate syndrome.”
- Is littermate syndrome a real thing?
- Is it ever a good idea to keep two littermates?
-
If you do keep two littermates, how can you successfully raise them together?
Visit our website, madcapradio.com for further reading.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,
and this is episodetwo of the Puppy Culture
Potluck podcast.
Today's question comes to usfrom a breeder, but it's a topic
that we get a lot from breedersand puppy owners alike,
(00:25):
and that is questionsabout littermate syndrome.
So a quick descriptionof littermate syndrome,
in case you're not already familiarwith the term.
Littermate syndrome
is when two littermates grow up together,so they're never separated, they,
they live in the same household,they grow up in the same household,
(00:46):
and then at some pointthey start displaying a variety
of undesirable behaviors,which we'll talk more about.
And the thought isthat the fact that they're littermates
and the factthat they were never separated
means that they formeda superior bond with each other,
that they bonded more closelywith each other than with their owners.
(01:10):
And that sort of lack of attachmentand superior bond that
they have with theirtheir litter mate is the root cause
of these problems.
So I'm going to read you the post
and then we're going to talk generallyabout littermate syndrome.
And then my specific adviceto this breeder
(01:32):
and I want to say before I read itthat the breed is Clumber spaniel
and that will become importantas we go through and talk about this more.
So here's the post.
I am keeping both of my bitch puppiesin my litter.
That having been said,one of the girls is going to be going
to my co-breeders home and will beswapping them out occasionally.
(01:56):
Ultimately,having them both end up with me.
Is there a timeframethat will be recommended
to ensure good development?
I found this article to be interesting.
Now, the article that she linked tois an article
that basically outlines, you know,the whole nightmare of littermate syndrome
(02:18):
and the pitfalls of littermate syndrome.
We'll come back to that.
And then I asked a follow up question,
which is for her to sort of flesh outfor me what she means by swapping them out
occasionally and ultimately having themwind up with her.
And her answer was they were going
(02:39):
to separate them and trade them outin the first year of their life.
Ultimately,to have them wind up after a year
old living with the the original poster.
I had some specific advice for herin this situation,
but I think we need to speak a little bitglobally about littermate syndrome first,
(03:00):
and firstwe have to talk about the word syndrome,
because a syndrome really is
just a group of symptomsthat consistently occur together
or a condition characterizedby a set of associated symptoms.
Right. It's not
(03:20):
it's not really like a diseaseor a genetic condition.
So a lot of timespeople say littermate syndrome
and it means kind ofa lot of different things.
It can mean two puppiesthat are bonded, quote
unquote, to each otherand don't have any interest in humans.
(03:42):
It can mean two puppies that fightrelentlessly.
It can mean puppies with separationanxiety.
It can mean puppies with neophobia,meaning to say fear of the novel,
which is, you know, what we try andcounteract with socialization practices.
So it's kind of a ...
it's a little bit
like fading puppy syndrome in the sensethat it's this whole catchall of
(04:07):
I don't know, we kept two puppiesand then there there's all these problems,
so we're thinking it'sbecause they're littermates.
So up on the show page, I didput up an article, an excellent article
that Kayla Fratt wrote for IAABCthat would be
the International Associationof Animal Behavior Consultants Journal.
(04:30):
So it's a peer reviewed scientific journal
about why there's no reason to believethat Littermates syndrome
exists.
Everything that people describeas littermate syndrome
is really just sort oflike sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
It's just under socializationand not having invested
(04:52):
the amount of time that you needto individually into each puppy
and the fact
that they happen to be littermates,I mean that that really is irrelevant.
So what littermate syndromereally is, it's two puppy syndrome.
It's it's to under socializedpuppy syndrome.
So I'm going to say there's no such thing
(05:14):
truly as littermate syndrome.
But before you get excited and say, “Well,that's great,
now I'm going to put a double deposit downand get two puppies”,
I want to talk to you about thisbecause you really
do have to make a huge commitmentif you're going to have two puppies
of the same age or you will wind upwith some of the kinds of problems
(05:37):
that people describewith littermate syndrome.
Breeders
run on multiple puppies all the time.
I mean, we do it.
We do it without any consequencebecause normally
when we're grading a litterand going through a litter,
(05:58):
you know, some of them are going to gowith pets very early.
And then it's sort of like an eliminationprocess that you want to run them on.
You want to see how their temperamentdevelops,
you know, what kind of personalitiesthey have, how the bites come in.
For some breeds,it might be coat and color.
There could bea lot of different things, right?
So we do it routinelyand we don't encounter problems,
(06:21):
but it takes a huge commitment
because you have to
do everythingthat you would do with one puppy
and you have to do itindividually with two puppies.
As my friend Magda,
who breeds Norwichterriers, is always saying,
when you have two puppies,you have three puppies,
(06:44):
you have puppy number oneand you have puppy number two
and you have puppy one two,which is the puppies together.
So that puppy one two thing, regardlessof whether they have any relation
to each other or not,just having two puppies of the same age,
they're going to behave and interactwith the world very differently
(07:06):
than individually,and they have to learn to navigate
the world individually.
So that means what does that mean?
That means as a puppy owner,
you have to sign up for two puppysocialization classes.
Okay?
You can't bring them both togetherto the same class,
even if you have another personin the class because they have to learn
(07:28):
how to navigate the worldwithout the support of their litter mate..
number two, a littermate or just age
conspecific okay, so, so you know,they have to learn to stand on their own
and not have that supportof their housemate litter mate,
whatever it is, that puppy, their own age.
(07:48):
In the same way
that when we're firstbringing puppies out, right.
I talk a lot in Puppy Cultureand also in our With Open Arms
Puppy Course about how it's greatto have a lead pony if you can,
an older dog that the puppy can model onsort of look to for you know
environmental cues like “Oh
(08:10):
I guess
we don't have to be worried about this,the big dog is fine” in the same way
that that's importantat a certain early stage in socialization,
you also
separately, the puppy has to learnto navigate life on their own.
It has to happen. So two puppy classes.
Okay, definitely two puppiessocialization play times.
(08:31):
You have to sign upfor separate socialization, play times.
Even the times when I've been pressedand had to bring two littermates to class,
I would work one littermate
and then put that litter mate in a crateand then work the other littermate.
So again, they they stood on their own.
But I never let themdo the play session together
(08:54):
because two puppies,you know, of the same age in the same
household will pack up and,you know, can think they're ten feet
tall against the other puppiesand really pack up on the other puppies.
It's not fair.
And once again,
it's not teaching the puppies to sort ofnavigate the world on their own.
So you're going to have that.
You're going to have to have two puppyclasses.
(09:15):
You're going to have to havetwo socialization experiences every day,
again, like we say in Puppy Cultureand in the puppy course,
that period of time, from the timeyou get that puppy home through
12 to 14 weeks, you should be taking thatpuppy new someplace every day.
Every daythat puppy should be getting out.
(09:35):
If you have two puppies, that meansyou have to make two individual trips.
So you know you're going to goto the garden center.
You, I suppose you could have them
in the car together,but you're going to have to take one
puppy out, do your whole socializationexperience, put that puppy away,
and then take the other puppy out and dothat whole socialization experience.
(09:56):
So, you know, it's time consuming.
And again,even if you have a helpful spouse or
human offspring that's of an
age that they can be helpful to you,it doesn't matter.
The puppies can't do it at the same time.
Now, I mean, theoretically,you could tag team
and one could take one vehicleand go one place
and another could take another vehicleand go another place.
(10:18):
But I'm just emphasizing for youthat this is double
it is double work.
House and crate training.
Again,in our Puppy Culture With Open Arms course
we give a whole protocolfrom start to finish for how you set up,
(10:39):
starting with what we call areaP, which is the puppy's designated area
with the litter areaand an open crate and work your way up
to sleeping in a crate at nightand being totally house trained.
You need two setupsif you're going to keep two puppies.
I mean, you need two complete set ups.
You can't have themjust together in the pen.
So that's another big thing.
(11:01):
Training,
each puppy needs individual training time
each day, so you have to practiceyour things like your leash walking,
your whatever your tricks are,whatever you,
sit down, stay
all your things that you're going to doand, well, show handling too.
If that's if that's somethingthat you want to do with your puppies.
(11:23):
Agility, obedience, whatever
it is, you have to do it twice every day.
And so, you know,what I'm kind of boiling down to here
is that for the average,even very motivated pet owner ...
no, why? I mean, you don't need two.
One is much better.
I mean, if for some reasonyou wind up with two, there's every reason
(11:47):
to think it's going to work out fineif you're willing to put in the effort.
So it's not like there's some magical,
littermate syndrome that's
going to make your puppy turn out badlyor puppies turn out badly.
But why would you do that to yourself?
It's just it's a lot of workand it's unnecessary.
(12:07):
If you, you know, if you really wantto get more than one, you know,
I recommend at least a year,
preferably 18 monthsbetween the two puppies.
I mean, you really want to be past
most of your development.
And, you know, you're more toughdevelopmental periods, which, you know, by
the time they're 18 months to two yearsold, they're a little more settled.
(12:29):
It's a little lessyou know, you're, you're hitting
a few less potholes by that point.
So that's my advice,as far as littermate syndrome,
it doesn't really exist per se,but certainly keeping two puppies
can be a disaster if you
don't put in the individual work
that you need to for each puppy.
(12:53):
So now I'm going to talk about my specific
advice to this breeder,because that was just general
littermate syndromeadvice and more, I'd say, directed toward
your puppy owner or your novice breederthat maybe isn't aware
of the kind of workthat it's going to involve.
So this bringing puppy isvery interesting,
(13:16):
is bringing a puppy or a young dogback in and out of the house.
Your success withthat is going to be very breed dependent.
In fact, your whole two puppy syndromeis going to be very much breed
dependentand it's going to depend a lot on how much
intra-dogsame sex aggression is in your breed.
(13:38):
Now this
breeder is breeding clumber spaniels,which to my knowledge are about as dog
friendly and non-reactive and mellowas you can get.
So I would imagine for her,I mean, it's going to be
a great experienceto, you know, sort of pass this puppy back
and forth between her house and her cobreeders house, which, by the way,
(14:00):
if there's pet people listening,we do this all the time.
We split up.
Even if we have really big litters.
A lot of times we will split the littersas soon as they're weaned, you know,
before they're of the age to be placedjust between two co-breeders,
just so that we can give more
individual attention to those puppiesas they're coming up to the age
what we're going to want to startreally interacting and training with them.
(14:23):
So this is not at allan unusual arrangement.
I mean, certainlyif a dog's going to be shown,
it's coming in and out of the housewith handlers.
I mean, we do thiskind of stuff all the time.
Now with
my breed, bull terriers,it's very interesting
becauseeven if I take a dog out for a week
to, you know, go to an away dog showand I come back,
(14:46):
I have to do a whole reintroductionin the back yard between that dog
and the other dogs,because I've had literal dogfights
just walking in the door, in the drivewayeven, when they see each other,
you know, it's like, “hey, who are you?
I don't recognize you”, but,you know, I'm coming from a breed
where there's significantsame sex aggression. So
my experience and the advisabilityof someone with a bull terrier doing
(15:11):
this is much different than a clumberspaniel.
Now, her specific concern was
at what age doesshe need to get that second
puppy out of her houseto avoid the two puppy syndrome?
And, you know,I think after listening to this,
(15:31):
it would be obviousto anyone that really it
probably depends more on how much timeyou have to spend with the puppy
than anything else in the sense of,you know,
when you find that you have a full timejob, you're running out of time.
You can't sign up for two puppy classes.
You know, the puppies readyto move on to that and you can't do it.
That's the time to get that puppy outto the second person
(15:53):
who's going to be ableto do the work with the puppy.
So that's the number one thing,
you know now also.
So I mean, sorry, circling back,let me just say.
So that would be normally whatever timeyou would normally place the puppy.
And when I say normally,
I'm not talking about a backyard breeder,normally I'm talking about a breeder
(16:14):
who does something like Puppy Cultureor the equivalent, because obviously,
you know, there's millions
of really good breeders out there,never even heard of Puppy Culture.
But something like that, a programlike that where the breeder is doing
some,you know, some work, training the puppy
and placing them at an appropriate age
where you're kind of splittingthe difference
(16:34):
between the expertise of the breeder
holding on to the puppyand working with it a little bit longer,
and the need for individual attentionfrom from the puppy owner.
So what is that age?
I mean, justI don't know, in a clumber spaniel.
It's a rare breedand not one that I honestly
(16:54):
have really hada lot of personal experience with at all.
But I can tell you it does vary a lot.
Okay, So like for the Bull Terriersand I would say there
are a lot of breeds aroundten weeks old is is probably the age
when you just kind of see them
(17:15):
start to look out of the weaning pen
and they're sort of like they're no longerreally part of that group.
You know,they're looking for their people, right?
They're looking to make that connectionwith the human being
and not be part of this organismthat's a litter anymore.
And, you know, you see glimmers of itmaybe at eight weeks,
but they're still kind of little babiesgoing back to each other.
(17:37):
But with my puppies,by the time they're 9 to 10 weeks,
I mean, they're looking fortheir people. You can see it
now with the Norwich terriers,
my friend Magda breeds, you know,
they're still nursing at 12 weeks old.
I mean, they're so neotenousmeaning to say so puppy like for so long
their developmentally waybehind the bull terrier.
(18:01):
And then on the other hand,you have German shepherds like Rebecca
Pinkston and Suzanne
Shelton are always talking aboutin the Puppy Culture discussion group
where, you know, nine weeks old,I mean, they're starting
to take on their littermatesand seriously mistrusting novelty.
I mean, it's a much more naturalkind of breed that way.
(18:24):
So it's they're developmentally aheadso for them
maybe a little earlier would bewhen they would place their puppies.
But the long and short of it is, you knowyou're really balancing two things.
You're balancing your resourcesas a breeder,
you know, how much time do you inyour household have to devote
to this puppy or these two puppies,if you keep two.
(18:47):
And you know what,
at what ageis your breed emotionally developed enough
to want to want to leave,to be emotionally stable enough to leave?
And that can vary a lot.
I mean, seriously,by as much as three weeks
between breeds.
And that's something, you know,that is just a constant theme
(19:07):
and something that I've learned so muchabout through the Puppy Culture discussion
group is just the amazing,
you know, diversity between breeds.
And that, so, so often we speak inabsolute terms about something like
littermate syndrome or best age to placepuppies or you name it.
(19:28):
And there really is no one answer.
It's moreit depends on the developmental period
that that puppy is in and breeds can vary.
It's been documented as much as 16 days.
And anecdotally, just in our observation,I would say
it's more like three weeksthat they can really vary that much.
(19:50):
So thanks tothat poster for sending in that question
that gave us a chanceto touch on some really cool topics.
If you want to join the discussionor ask me something that you'd like me
to talk about on air,join us on the Puppy Culture Discussion
Group on Facebookor visit the show page at madcapradio.com.
(20:11):
I'll be posting the links to the studies
that I talked about there,so you'll want to check that out.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,
and this is episodetwo of the Puppy Culture
Potluck podcast.
Today's question comes to usfrom a breeder, but it's a topic
that we get a lot from breedersand puppy owners alike,
(00:25):
and that is questionsabout littermate syndrome.
So a quick descriptionof littermate syndrome,
in case you're not already familiarwith the term.
Littermate syndrome
is when two littermates grow up together,so they're never separated, they,
they live in the same household,they grow up in the same household,
(00:46):
and then at some pointthey start displaying a variety
of undesirable behaviors,which we'll talk more about.
And the thought isthat the fact that they're littermates
and the factthat they were never separated
means that they formeda superior bond with each other,
that they bonded more closelywith each other than with their owners.
(01:10):
And that sort of lack of attachmentand superior bond that
they have with theirtheir litter mate is the root cause
of these problems.
So I'm going to read you the post
and then we're going to talk generallyabout littermate syndrome.
And then my specific adviceto this breeder
(01:32):
and I want to say before I read itthat the breed is Clumber spaniel
and that will become importantas we go through and talk about this more.
So here's the post.
I am keeping both of my bitch puppiesin my litter.
That having been said,one of the girls is going to be going
to my co-breeders home and will beswapping them out occasionally.
(01:56):
Ultimately,having them both end up with me.
Is there a timeframethat will be recommended
to ensure good development?
I found this article to be interesting.
Now, the article that she linked tois an article
that basically outlines, you know,the whole nightmare of littermate syndrome
(02:18):
and the pitfalls of littermate syndrome.
We'll come back to that.
And then I asked a follow up question,
which is for her to sort of flesh outfor me what she means by swapping them out
occasionally and ultimately having themwind up with her.
And her answer was they were going
(02:39):
to separate them and trade them outin the first year of their life.
Ultimately,to have them wind up after a year
old living with the the original poster.
I had some specific advice for herin this situation,
but I think we need to speak a little bitglobally about littermate syndrome first,
(03:00):
and firstwe have to talk about the word syndrome,
because a syndrome really is
just a group of symptomsthat consistently occur together
or a condition characterizedby a set of associated symptoms.
Right. It's not
(03:20):
it's not really like a diseaseor a genetic condition.
So a lot of timespeople say littermate syndrome
and it means kind ofa lot of different things.
It can mean two puppiesthat are bonded, quote
unquote, to each otherand don't have any interest in humans.
(03:42):
It can mean two puppies that fightrelentlessly.
It can mean puppies with separationanxiety.
It can mean puppies with neophobia,meaning to say fear of the novel,
which is, you know, what we try andcounteract with socialization practices.
So it's kind of a ...
it's a little bit
like fading puppy syndrome in the sensethat it's this whole catchall of
(04:07):
I don't know, we kept two puppiesand then there there's all these problems,
so we're thinking it'sbecause they're littermates.
So up on the show page, I didput up an article, an excellent article
that Kayla Fratt wrote for IAABCthat would be
the International Associationof Animal Behavior Consultants Journal.
(04:30):
So it's a peer reviewed scientific journal
about why there's no reason to believethat Littermates syndrome
exists.
Everything that people describeas littermate syndrome
is really just sort oflike sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
It's just under socializationand not having invested
(04:52):
the amount of time that you needto individually into each puppy
and the fact
that they happen to be littermates,I mean that that really is irrelevant.
So what littermate syndromereally is, it's two puppy syndrome.
It's it's to under socializedpuppy syndrome.
So I'm going to say there's no such thing
(05:14):
truly as littermate syndrome.
But before you get excited and say, “Well,that's great,
now I'm going to put a double deposit downand get two puppies”,
I want to talk to you about thisbecause you really
do have to make a huge commitmentif you're going to have two puppies
of the same age or you will wind upwith some of the kinds of problems
(05:37):
that people describewith littermate syndrome.
Breeders
run on multiple puppies all the time.
I mean, we do it.
We do it without any consequencebecause normally
when we're grading a litterand going through a litter,
(05:58):
you know, some of them are going to gowith pets very early.
And then it's sort of like an eliminationprocess that you want to run them on.
You want to see how their temperamentdevelops,
you know, what kind of personalitiesthey have, how the bites come in.
For some breeds,it might be coat and color.
There could bea lot of different things, right?
So we do it routinelyand we don't encounter problems,
(06:21):
but it takes a huge commitment
because you have to
do everythingthat you would do with one puppy
and you have to do itindividually with two puppies.
As my friend Magda,
who breeds Norwichterriers, is always saying,
when you have two puppies,you have three puppies,
(06:44):
you have puppy number oneand you have puppy number two
and you have puppy one two,which is the puppies together.
So that puppy one two thing, regardlessof whether they have any relation
to each other or not,just having two puppies of the same age,
they're going to behave and interactwith the world very differently
(07:06):
than individually,and they have to learn to navigate
the world individually.
So that means what does that mean?
That means as a puppy owner,
you have to sign up for two puppysocialization classes.
Okay?
You can't bring them both togetherto the same class,
even if you have another personin the class because they have to learn
(07:28):
how to navigate the worldwithout the support of their litter mate..
number two, a littermate or just age
conspecific okay, so, so you know,they have to learn to stand on their own
and not have that supportof their housemate litter mate,
whatever it is, that puppy, their own age.
(07:48):
In the same way
that when we're firstbringing puppies out, right.
I talk a lot in Puppy Cultureand also in our With Open Arms
Puppy Course about how it's greatto have a lead pony if you can,
an older dog that the puppy can model onsort of look to for you know
environmental cues like “Oh
(08:10):
I guess
we don't have to be worried about this,the big dog is fine” in the same way
that that's importantat a certain early stage in socialization,
you also
separately, the puppy has to learnto navigate life on their own.
It has to happen. So two puppy classes.
Okay, definitely two puppiessocialization play times.
(08:31):
You have to sign upfor separate socialization, play times.
Even the times when I've been pressedand had to bring two littermates to class,
I would work one littermate
and then put that litter mate in a crateand then work the other littermate.
So again, they they stood on their own.
But I never let themdo the play session together
(08:54):
because two puppies,you know, of the same age in the same
household will pack up and,you know, can think they're ten feet
tall against the other puppiesand really pack up on the other puppies.
It's not fair.
And once again,
it's not teaching the puppies to sort ofnavigate the world on their own.
So you're going to have that.
You're going to have to have two puppyclasses.
(09:15):
You're going to have to havetwo socialization experiences every day,
again, like we say in Puppy Cultureand in the puppy course,
that period of time, from the timeyou get that puppy home through
12 to 14 weeks, you should be taking thatpuppy new someplace every day.
Every daythat puppy should be getting out.
(09:35):
If you have two puppies, that meansyou have to make two individual trips.
So you know you're going to goto the garden center.
You, I suppose you could have them
in the car together,but you're going to have to take one
puppy out, do your whole socializationexperience, put that puppy away,
and then take the other puppy out and dothat whole socialization experience.
(09:56):
So, you know, it's time consuming.
And again,even if you have a helpful spouse or
human offspring that's of an
age that they can be helpful to you,it doesn't matter.
The puppies can't do it at the same time.
Now, I mean, theoretically,you could tag team
and one could take one vehicleand go one place
and another could take another vehicleand go another place.
(10:18):
But I'm just emphasizing for youthat this is double
it is double work.
House and crate training.
Again,in our Puppy Culture With Open Arms course
we give a whole protocolfrom start to finish for how you set up,
(10:39):
starting with what we call areaP, which is the puppy's designated area
with the litter areaand an open crate and work your way up
to sleeping in a crate at nightand being totally house trained.
You need two setupsif you're going to keep two puppies.
I mean, you need two complete set ups.
You can't have themjust together in the pen.
So that's another big thing.
(11:01):
Training,
each puppy needs individual training time
each day, so you have to practiceyour things like your leash walking,
your whatever your tricks are,whatever you,
sit down, stay
all your things that you're going to doand, well, show handling too.
If that's if that's somethingthat you want to do with your puppies.
(11:23):
Agility, obedience, whatever
it is, you have to do it twice every day.
And so, you know,what I'm kind of boiling down to here
is that for the average,even very motivated pet owner ...
no, why? I mean, you don't need two.
One is much better.
I mean, if for some reasonyou wind up with two, there's every reason
(11:47):
to think it's going to work out fineif you're willing to put in the effort.
So it's not like there's some magical,
littermate syndrome that's
going to make your puppy turn out badlyor puppies turn out badly.
But why would you do that to yourself?
It's just it's a lot of workand it's unnecessary.
(12:07):
If you, you know, if you really wantto get more than one, you know,
I recommend at least a year,
preferably 18 monthsbetween the two puppies.
I mean, you really want to be past
most of your development.
And, you know, you're more toughdevelopmental periods, which, you know, by
the time they're 18 months to two yearsold, they're a little more settled.
(12:29):
It's a little lessyou know, you're, you're hitting
a few less potholes by that point.
So that's my advice,as far as littermate syndrome,
it doesn't really exist per se,but certainly keeping two puppies
can be a disaster if you
don't put in the individual work
that you need to for each puppy.
(12:53):
So now I'm going to talk about my specific
advice to this breeder,because that was just general
littermate syndromeadvice and more, I'd say, directed toward
your puppy owner or your novice breederthat maybe isn't aware
of the kind of workthat it's going to involve.
So this bringing puppy isvery interesting,
(13:16):
is bringing a puppy or a young dogback in and out of the house.
Your success withthat is going to be very breed dependent.
In fact, your whole two puppy syndromeis going to be very much breed
dependentand it's going to depend a lot on how much
intra-dogsame sex aggression is in your breed.
(13:38):
Now this
breeder is breeding clumber spaniels,which to my knowledge are about as dog
friendly and non-reactive and mellowas you can get.
So I would imagine for her,I mean, it's going to be
a great experienceto, you know, sort of pass this puppy back
and forth between her house and her cobreeders house, which, by the way,
(14:00):
if there's pet people listening,we do this all the time.
We split up.
Even if we have really big litters.
A lot of times we will split the littersas soon as they're weaned, you know,
before they're of the age to be placedjust between two co-breeders,
just so that we can give more
individual attention to those puppiesas they're coming up to the age
what we're going to want to startreally interacting and training with them.
(14:23):
So this is not at allan unusual arrangement.
I mean, certainlyif a dog's going to be shown,
it's coming in and out of the housewith handlers.
I mean, we do thiskind of stuff all the time.
Now with
my breed, bull terriers,it's very interesting
becauseeven if I take a dog out for a week
to, you know, go to an away dog showand I come back,
(14:46):
I have to do a whole reintroductionin the back yard between that dog
and the other dogs,because I've had literal dogfights
just walking in the door, in the drivewayeven, when they see each other,
you know, it's like, “hey, who are you?
I don't recognize you”, but,you know, I'm coming from a breed
where there's significantsame sex aggression. So
my experience and the advisabilityof someone with a bull terrier doing
(15:11):
this is much different than a clumberspaniel.
Now, her specific concern was
at what age doesshe need to get that second
puppy out of her houseto avoid the two puppy syndrome?
And, you know,I think after listening to this,
(15:31):
it would be obviousto anyone that really it
probably depends more on how much timeyou have to spend with the puppy
than anything else in the sense of,you know,
when you find that you have a full timejob, you're running out of time.
You can't sign up for two puppy classes.
You know, the puppies readyto move on to that and you can't do it.
That's the time to get that puppy outto the second person
(15:53):
who's going to be ableto do the work with the puppy.
So that's the number one thing,
you know now also.
So I mean, sorry, circling back,let me just say.
So that would be normally whatever timeyou would normally place the puppy.
And when I say normally,
I'm not talking about a backyard breeder,normally I'm talking about a breeder
(16:14):
who does something like Puppy Cultureor the equivalent, because obviously,
you know, there's millions
of really good breeders out there,never even heard of Puppy Culture.
But something like that, a programlike that where the breeder is doing
some,you know, some work, training the puppy
and placing them at an appropriate age
where you're kind of splittingthe difference
(16:34):
between the expertise of the breeder
holding on to the puppyand working with it a little bit longer,
and the need for individual attentionfrom from the puppy owner.
So what is that age?
I mean, justI don't know, in a clumber spaniel.
It's a rare breedand not one that I honestly
(16:54):
have really hada lot of personal experience with at all.
But I can tell you it does vary a lot.
Okay, So like for the Bull Terriersand I would say there
are a lot of breeds aroundten weeks old is is probably the age
when you just kind of see them
(17:15):
start to look out of the weaning pen
and they're sort of like they're no longerreally part of that group.
You know,they're looking for their people, right?
They're looking to make that connectionwith the human being
and not be part of this organismthat's a litter anymore.
And, you know, you see glimmers of itmaybe at eight weeks,
but they're still kind of little babiesgoing back to each other.
(17:37):
But with my puppies,by the time they're 9 to 10 weeks,
I mean, they're looking fortheir people. You can see it
now with the Norwich terriers,
my friend Magda breeds, you know,
they're still nursing at 12 weeks old.
I mean, they're so neotenousmeaning to say so puppy like for so long
their developmentally waybehind the bull terrier.
(18:01):
And then on the other hand,you have German shepherds like Rebecca
Pinkston and Suzanne
Shelton are always talking aboutin the Puppy Culture discussion group
where, you know, nine weeks old,I mean, they're starting
to take on their littermatesand seriously mistrusting novelty.
I mean, it's a much more naturalkind of breed that way.
(18:24):
So it's they're developmentally aheadso for them
maybe a little earlier would bewhen they would place their puppies.
But the long and short of it is, you knowyou're really balancing two things.
You're balancing your resourcesas a breeder,
you know, how much time do you inyour household have to devote
to this puppy or these two puppies,if you keep two.
(18:47):
And you know what,
at what ageis your breed emotionally developed enough
to want to want to leave,to be emotionally stable enough to leave?
And that can vary a lot.
I mean, seriously,by as much as three weeks
between breeds.
And that's something, you know,that is just a constant theme
(19:07):
and something that I've learned so muchabout through the Puppy Culture discussion
group is just the amazing,
you know, diversity between breeds.
And that, so, so often we speak inabsolute terms about something like
littermate syndrome or best age to placepuppies or you name it.
(19:28):
And there really is no one answer.
It's moreit depends on the developmental period
that that puppy is in and breeds can vary.
It's been documented as much as 16 days.
And anecdotally, just in our observation,I would say
it's more like three weeksthat they can really vary that much.
(19:50):
So thanks tothat poster for sending in that question
that gave us a chanceto touch on some really cool topics.
If you want to join the discussionor ask me something that you'd like me
to talk about on air,join us on the Puppy Culture Discussion
Group on Facebookor visit the show page at madcapradio.com.
(20:11):
I'll be posting the links to the studies
that I talked about there,so you'll want to check that out.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
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