Autism Communication Strategies Part 2: Navigating Nonverbal Interactions

Join host-duo Moshe and Leah as they discuss the 'double empathy problem' that often manifests in neurodivergent relationships on this episode of 'Now You Know One Autistic.' The pair examine the differing perceptions of reality between autistic and neurotypical individuals, resulting in unique communication and comprehension complications. The discussion underlines aspects of mental health, unique communication styles with an emphasis on the crucial differences between assertiveness and aggressiveness.

Dispelling common misconceptions about autistic individuals and empathy, the hosts introduce the concept of the 'double empathy problem.' This section highlights the challenges both autistic and non-autistic individuals face while attempting to comprehend another's experiences and emotions.

The episode goes on to unravel personal anecdotes about their experiences with emotional communication. It explains why conventional approaches may not be effective with neurodivergent individuals. For example, there are situations where an autistic person might need acknowledgment of their emotions but not necessarily a solution.

There's also a discussion on the pitfalls of excessively praising basic accomplishments, and a call to see beyond the label of autism. The hosts delve into the trials and tribulations of communicating in relationships where both parties are on the autism spectrum – from the nuances of verbal and physical cues to the importance of patience, consistent dialogue, and explanation.

In a detailed discussion, the episode investigates one of the defining traits of neurodivergent individuals —struggles with maintaining eye contact. The hosts question societal perceptions around eye contact and offer an alternative, more accommodating viewpoint that doesn't equate a lack of eye contact with dishonesty.

Concluding the episode is an invitation for listeners to partake in the journey of understanding and appreciating autistics better, advocating for an inclusive world that readily accepts differences. Tune in for enlightening conversations and life-lessons from the neurodivergent perspective.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Music.

(00:10):
Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic. I'm Leah, and I'm boring.
Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,
marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.
The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.
Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion,

(00:32):
and unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the
many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will
be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,
a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.
If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,

(00:54):
consult your family doctor.
Music.
Hi moshe hi leah how are you today very well thank you all right so now we're
taking up part two of communicating about communication part two communication about communication,

(01:17):
we we did the the first part not last time but the time before that and it went
a little bit long And that's okay, because people are listening to us talk.
And if we can't always be, you know, less verbose, and sometimes more is better
than not at all. So that's perfectly okay, because they were very interesting

(01:39):
topics, and we had a lot to go into about them.
So we left you last time with a little bit info about what we wanted to cover in this episode.
However, we realized that when we were doing the topic of communication styles,
we didn't necessarily thoroughly go into it.
So Moshe wanted to go over a little bit about examples of the communication

(02:01):
styles that we discussed last time.
So, the last episode of communication, we discussed the four different kinds
of communication styles, and I had mentioned at the end that there were some
really good examples, but I couldn't think of them.
So, I actually looked them up, and there were a few things, and we'll briefly
go over them before we get into the topics today.

(02:21):
So, first, the different sorts of communication styles that Leah basically went
into are the passive, assertive, passive-aggressive, and aggressive.
And in particular, what I was really interested in was, what is the difference
between an aggressive speaker and an assertive speaker?
A lot of people struggle with that. Neurotypical or neurodivergent.

(02:44):
So, the brief summary is, I'll quickly kind of go over the overview.
Defines passive speaker as emotionally dishonest, indirect, inhibited,
self-denying, blaming, and apologetic. Ooh, dishonest?
That's harsh. Emotionally dishonest. A passive-aggressive speaker is emotionally
dishonest as well, indirect, self-denying at first, and self-enhancing at the

(03:08):
expense of others later.
An aggressive speaker is inappropriately honest, direct, expressive,
attacking, blaming, controlling, and self-enhancing at the expense of others.
Appropriately honest is how How do you start off assertive, appropriately honest,
direct, self-enhancing, expressive, self-confident, and empathetic to the emotions

(03:32):
of all the people that are involved?
Right. So I would actually say that the aggressive description describes sort
of if you looked up or if you saw on a popular TV show, an autistic person,
how they would be perceived of communicating.
So, the main definition between assertive and aggressive, because a lot of people,

(03:53):
they go, what's the difference between assertive and aggressive?
So, some examples that they give are aggressive means you establish one's needs
and beliefs in a threatening and disrespectful way, whereas an assertive person
shows up and supports one's beliefs without disrespecting others.
An aggressive person is overconfident, which leads to harshness.

(04:13):
An assertive person is confident and self-assured. An aggressive person is manipulative,
hostile, demeaning, and abusive, whereas an assertive person would be direct,
persuasive, honest, and open.
An aggressive person would be rigid, arrogant, and rude, whereas an assertive
person would be flexible and firm, but also soft.

(04:34):
An aggressive person would never admit mistakes.
An assertive person admits their mistakes. An aggressive person pushes their agenda forcefully.
An assertive person has an agenda that they share by understanding other people's agenda.
And an aggressive speaker, their goal is to disrespect others.

(04:55):
Whereas an assertive person, their goal is to keep everyone happy.
So we'll go into an example that people give.
It's the same scenario in all four examples.
And the scenario is a manager works in an office, and he has to get some figures

(05:15):
from his assistant, John.
So passive person might say, so no problem, Joan, you can get those figures to me whenever you want.
Passive aggressive person would say, you know, Joan, things would run a lot
more smoothly if people just got their reports in on time.
An aggressive person would say, Joan, if you don't get me those numbers soon,

(05:37):
there's going to be a lot of doc pay around here.
And a discerner person would be like, hey, Joan, I know you're really busy,
but I need to get those numbers to me by Friday at noon.
Right so that is the main difference
in those communication styles you're you're you're asking
for something but the difference between
an aggressive and an assertive speaker is on one hand the aggressive speaker

(06:00):
makes threats to get what they want they're very forceful they're very pushy
an assertive person is still you know assertive for lack of a better word but
they They also do it in a way that respects the other person.
You're still telling Joan, I need those numbers.
But instead of saying, hey, if you don't give me those numbers,

(06:21):
I'm going to dock your pay.
You're saying, I get that you're really busy, but it's really important that
you get those to me on time, please. That's the difference. Right.
So which of those examples of how the manager handled Joan do you think is the healthiest?
I'm asking Moshe, but I'm also asking the audience at large, truthfully.
So, the problem with each of these communication styles, except for assertive,

(06:44):
is in the event of the passive speaker,
you are actually being very respectful of the other person, but at the expense of yourself.
You're saying, I don't really mind, get those to me whenever.
You do mind, but you're not actually going to tell her.
So, on one hand, you're going to feel resentment.

(07:07):
And on the other hand joan is going
to be like oh okay i guess it's not a big deal i'll get them into you whatever
right and at the end of the quarter when you give her a bad
review she's not going to understand i don't understand i thought you
said you didn't mind exactly passive aggressive is definitely the most dangerous
in my opinion because essentially what you're doing is you're indirectly asking

(07:29):
for something because it denotes essentially that nobody's happy here because
you are unhappy because for whatever reason, you don't have the numbers you need.
And Joan's going to be unhappy because she's like, yeah, are you trying to ask me to do something?
And this is actually in a situation that autistic people and neurodivergent
people often struggle with.

(07:49):
Because if you take somebody at their word, then you have to assume that when
something is said, it is said because it denotes a need.
And if someone were to walk into the kitchen, for example and
there's dishes on the counter you might say gosh it
would be really nice if someone could do the dishes and then
half an hour we go see right and

(08:12):
you go why didn't you do the dishes yet and she's like you didn't ask me to
you'd be like yeah i did i said it would be nice if someone to do the dishes
that's your cue and she would rightfully say i didn't know that you were asking
you to do them then an aggressive person would essentially the passive aggressive Nobody's happy.
The person you're talking to doesn't know what you actually want.

(08:32):
And the person who is talking feels unsatisfied by what they're asking for.
It's a lose-lose situation.
An aggressive person, what you're
doing is you are satisfying yourself by putting the other person down.
So you're happy. They're not happy. be.
And they could rightfully say to you, if you wanted me to do the dishes,

(08:54):
you could have just said so. You don't have to be mean about it.
You don't have to yell. You don't have to be angry.
If you need something done, just tell me you need it done.
You would go into the kitchen and be like, I asked you to do the dishes. Like,
two hours ago and they're still not done. There's going to be serious consequences.
We're not going to do anything. You're not going to get to go out.
It's going to be a whole thing.

(09:15):
Now, the difference between that and assertive is, okay, you know what?
The dishes have been waiting there for a while. I see that you're really tired
today and I see that you're busy.
I really need those dishes to be done so that I can make supper.
Would you be able to do that?
More often than not, Melissa, I'm really fed up. That's how I'll approach it.
Two things come to mind just during your explanation.

(09:36):
The first is how many people in my life in particular are very aggressive communicators.
It's almost disturbing, truthfully.
And secondly, you brought up false confidence or overconfidence.
Over false confidence, that is an issue.
I find not necessarily with neurotypical versus neurodivergent,

(10:00):
but with a certain personality type, like an A-type personality,
people will have overconfidence, and it's false confidence. It's based in nothing.
Tell me about your experiences with that.
See, the overconfidence and the over false confidence are different,
because you can be overconfident.

(10:21):
Maybe you're very good at something, and you're not taking into other people's
account. So let's say you're, you're really, really good at,
I don't know, stacking boxes.
You can be like, I can stack 50 boxes in an hour and you can't,
you're very good at boxes, but you're not that fast.
Let's say, whereas over false confidence is essential.

(10:42):
You don't actually think that you can stack very many boxes at all,
but you say you can because you don't believe in yourself.
You're actually denoting or demeaning yourself by expressing something to make,
I don't know, Maybe your aim is to make people feel better.
Maybe it's to make you feel better. Maybe it's to placate someone.
But when you know that you're boosting yourself up falsely, then you're actually

(11:08):
indicating that you have very low self-esteem and a low belief in yourself.
What about when people boost themselves up falsely, but they don't know it's false?
They genuinely think they're the best, I don't know, astronaut on the planet or something. Yeah.
Those are very difficult people to deal with because what you,
what you need to do in those cases is if you don't really care that much and

(11:33):
be like, all right, whatever.
Sure, sure, sure. You're, you're the greatest. You invented everything that's ever been invented.
Or if you, if you want to challenge that, or you want to help the person,
say it's someone that you genuinely love or, or want to want to help in,
in their ability to be a better, more functional person. You can be like, okay.
I'm really glad that you can wash dishes in five minutes. So let's see if you can do that.

(11:58):
Let's go ahead. Show me what you can do. Right. And that's a lot of times where I'm at with people.
They'll say, I did the blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, yeah? Show me.
And it becomes very difficult. And unfortunately, a lot of these people have
some other, I don't know, some other things going on.

(12:19):
Sometimes you mean like the people who generally
believe they're overconfidence yes yeah
so a lot i guess they have mental health issues or something that's something
i'm not willing to dive into because we don't even have a lot of life experience
with that for sure however if any viewers out there or listeners sorry out there
do they can absolutely let us know yeah so that is a

(12:43):
great way to segue into the first,
or rather the next topic in our communication.
This is a very interesting topic, Moshe. I think I say that about every topic.
Yes. People are going to start making fun of me again. Maybe it'll be a merchandise.
This is the best. It's the best, Moshe, best. The best.
We're laughing because everything in Israel is super. It's not just a pharmacy. It's a super farm.

(13:08):
It's not just a grocery store. It's super grocery. three.
Yes. And not just a great doctor. They're the best doctor that's ever doctored
ever. Yeah, absolutely.
So we're going to be discussing the double empathy problem.
It's a very interesting problem that you can do quite a deep dive into if you choose to.
So let's see where this goes and how much time you spend on it. Okay.

(13:29):
The definition that I found while I was researching it is people with very different
life experiences or who experience the world differently when they interact with one another,
they will struggle to empathize with one another.
These are often exacerbated by difference in language and comprehension.
It leads to a mutual breakdown of communication.

(13:54):
Right. So the graphic that I have here denotes the problem between a neurodivergent
or an autistic person, say, and a non-autistic person.
And it's exactly what you said. Both parties will struggle to understand each
other's thoughts, feelings, behavior, and differences.
And one of the main issues that every one of those people has to struggle with

(14:17):
is individualized based on where they stand.
The autistic person often struggles to see nuance.
An autistic person often struggles to overcome other people's misconceptions.
The autistic person may struggle to manage sensory distractions,
whereas the neurotypical or holistic or whatever, they struggle to form positive first impressions.

(14:41):
They may struggle to recognize and understand the autistic, and they may struggle
to imagine autistic sensory difficulties.
And this is really, really, really, really important as it defined the beginning of our relationship.
It defines a lot of relationships. So if you look just at the definition that

(15:01):
I spoke, right? Different experiences of the world.
Between autistic and holistic people, they experience the world vastly differently,
even if they're in the same exact situation.
Struggling with language right you know
it's one of the hallmarks of autism to struggle with language even
if you're speaking the same language which can make it very confusing and

(15:22):
frustrating for people and also different
comprehension of things where an autistic will tend
to take things very literally like you like to give the
example of Amelia Bedelia yeah they told her to
make the bed an holistic child might just throw
their covers on the bed where she went and she got the wood and the
hammer and the tools and she was making a bet right so

(15:42):
even differences in comprehension so that
leads itself to unbelievable misunderstandings and it's literally nobody's fault
because you're saying the thing as honestly as you possibly can say it i'm saying
the thing as honestly as i possibly can say it but the words are not meaning
the same thing to the other person right.

(16:04):
Because when you are neurodivergent, oftentimes you are said to struggle with empathy.
And that is actually, our experience is that's actually not right.
Autistic people don't struggle necessarily with empathy.
They struggle with double empathy, which is the phenomenon or the problem of

(16:25):
understanding an other person's experiences.
It's not that they don't care a lot of the time. It's that they don't understand
what they're supposed to be caring about.
Exactly. So, for example, I don't know, a Tylenol commercial with puppy dogs
in it might make me cry and sad.
It doesn't mean that Moshe doesn't have empathy for the puppy dogs or he doesn't

(16:47):
have empathy for me who's sad about the puppy dogs.
It's just that puppy dogs don't make him feel that way.
So he has no frame of reference for understanding why I'm feeling that way.
So he would rightly say, why are you crying? Why are you feeling that way?
That doesn't even make sense.
And that would come off as definitely sort of lacking empathy.
Do you agree with that? Exactly.

(17:08):
It's the whole, it's not that I don't care. It's that I don't,
number one, I might not understand why you care.
And I don't understand necessarily why I should care, except that you see,
it's essentially something that I've described many times, which is,
I don't understand why this upsets you, but I love you.

(17:30):
You so i'm upset that you're upset
the reality is if you break it down a lot of
the times it isn't even something you should care about it's
just that at large it's expected if that makes sense
exactly what we discovered too long
into our relationship if you ask me but what we discovered is
there's a reason why it's called the double empathy problem it

(17:51):
goes in both directions there were things that would upset moshe that i would
not understand till this day i still don't understand because i have no frame
of reference for those things to be upsetting me it does go both ways and if
you looked at it from his perspective then i would be lacking empathy exactly,
So, let's discuss some examples of the double empathy problem.

(18:17):
And again, I want to emphasize that even though we're discussing it from the
perspective of an autistic or neurodivergent person and a non-autistic or allistic person,
it can happen in any relationships and it happens a lot of the time.
But it's particularly remarkable in that it falls into another category that

(18:40):
we may or may not discuss at a certain point in the future, which is the you-should-know-this thing.
Oh, absolutely. We're going to discuss that. which I have a lot of issues with,
because the you should know this thing is a very interesting situation.
Because a lot of these things, once again, as with many neurodivergent qualities and characteristics.

(19:06):
It comes with development and experience and maybe perspective into maybe something
instinctual, which an autistic person or a neurodivergent person often may lack.
Something that happens to me a lot, actually, is the understanding,
and this is one of the most common differences between an autistic and a non-autistic,

(19:29):
but it also happens with people who struggle with mental illness and people who don't.
Because what it what it looks like is
it looks like an example of diminishing a
person's experiences and what they're doing is they're attempting to relate
but by relating they're coming across as condescending and an example of that

(19:53):
is i will say because i am autistic you you knew that right I am autistic,
and one of my sensitivities is sound sensitivities.
So occasionally, particularly very high-pitched sounds will cause me to cover
my ears or become very agitated.
And I will say something like,

(20:14):
I have a sound sensitivity because I'm autistic. And then a person will go,
yeah, I don't like loud noises either.
Or, you know, I'll say I have a processing delay because I'm autistic.
And they'll say, yeah, sometimes it's hard for me to make up my mind too.
And they're completely innocent in their ability to try and relate to you.

(20:37):
But in doing that, they're essentially reducing your experience in the same
way that you're telling somebody,
I don't know, someone who's, who struggled their whole life with let's say major
depression and being told, you know, sometimes when I'm sad,
I just smile and I feel better. Right.
Exactly. Maybe, have you tried, you know, just thinking happy thoughts?

(20:58):
Have you tried smiling more? Like the diet culture? Have you tried eating less?
Yeah. I struggle with, you know, body image.
Well, you know, have you tried eating less and going to the gym? Exactly. Yeah.
I understand exactly what you're talking about there. And a lot of times these
suggestions or advice comes unsolicited. For sure.

(21:22):
And it is extremely unfortunate that a lot of this difficulty with understanding
neurodivergent person often comes from the autistic person or the neurodivergent person's character.
And if you are the parent of an autistic person, then oftentimes you will become an autistic champion,

(21:50):
say, and be like, my son or my daughter is autistic.
So let me tell you what you need to know about what being autistic means.
And meanwhile, the autistic person is just kind of sitting there,
you know, like, I guess, I guess they're an expert now. Right.

(22:10):
But that's still better than the alternative of not understanding it all.
It comes from a good place.
Sometimes. I think a lot of the time it does. Sometimes it does.
And you see this a lot, actually, because again, as I mentioned in a previous episode,
I spend a lot of time on autistic boards, because I kind of want to know what
exactly the parents of autistics and people who have autism are thinking about and struggling with,

(22:36):
and what are some issues that maybe we should talk about in a future episode,
and maybe some commonalities.
And what I see time and time and time again is these
things that make the person come across like they're the parent of Superman
or this new form of life that nobody has ever seen. And again...

(23:02):
It absolutely comes from a fantastic place, I'm sure.
And they're absolutely trying to come across to boost their child.
But in doing so, they're essentially giving them an otherness,
which will harm them in the long run. My son is a superhero.
You know what he did today? He washed a dish.
That makes me so upset. He is my favorite person in the whole world because

(23:28):
he put on his pants properly today, and he only threw up twice when he ate a food he didn't like.
So I think what Moshe's saying here is that he's not trying to minimize the
struggles of people who have issues with putting on their pants correctly or
throwing up when they eat a trigger food.
What he's trying to say is that you're minimizing your expectation of another

(23:52):
human being when you treat it that way.
Right. You would never say that to a neurotypical person like,
yeah, you got out of bed today.
Congratulations. Right. And if you did, it would come across as condescending and patronizing.
Because people, regardless, when you set a bar for them, they reach it.
And if you set the bar too low, that's all they're ever going to reach,

(24:13):
unless they're a very specific type of person.
Yeah, you don't want to set the bar too high, because then essentially you're
setting up your child for failure.
And again, we're going to do whole episodes just dealing with autistic children
and things that autistic children struggle with and parents of autistic children.
But in particular, if you set the bar too high, then you're essentially setting

(24:35):
yourself up for failure, for being disappointed.
And if you set the bar too low, then you're limiting your child's potential.
Because being autistic does not mean that they are non-functional,
not necessarily. The only time you should.
Clap for somebody having put their pants on as if they were in a coma previously.
Exactly. Yeah. So the expectation needs to be set that not only is this not

(24:59):
something special, it's something that they should be doing anyway.
If it's, I mean, and again, that hasn't been said, I'm not trying to diminish or limit the struggle.
We're going to hear from the parents who said, well, my son couldn't put his
pants on for a year and then he finally accomplished it. Great.
And that's wonderful. What are you working on next?
Right. You can tell the child, you know what, buddy, you did a great job.

(25:21):
Your pants are on straight. Let's keep doing that.
Let's work on your shirt buttons. Yeah, let's figure out your buttons.
But don't make a whole parade in town square over the fact that your child put
on their pants properly, because that's the minimal expectation.
There is an adult TikToker.
I don't want to bring it up right now. It's going to be brought up eventually,

(25:41):
but I don't want to bring it up right now who it is. But there is an adult TikToker
who was a full-on adult, and their parent just congratulates them for the most ludicrous of things.
And it's just, it's uncomfortable, to be honest with you.
For sure. It feels like going to Marine Land and watching the dolphins perform.

(26:03):
We're going to talk about this person quite a bit in this podcast,
because it's actually one of the impetuses that I had for wanting to do the
podcast in the first place.
And i would very much like to involve
them in the podcast in a future episode if
if if they sell we'll move on their caregiver
doesn't even let them do their own media but it doesn't matter anyway i want

(26:26):
to bring us back to a point you made when we first started discussing the devil
empathy problem because people i guess like to hear examples that you can get
off the internet or general examples but they're here to listen to us so you
said this was a huge problem at the beginning of our relationship.
Let's talk about that a little bit. So, double empathy.
Is frustrating. And again, as Leia said, from both ends.

(26:48):
Because so much, as I said in, I think, the first episode, so much time is spent
trying to discuss how autistic people struggle to relate, or how neurotypical
people struggle to relate to autistic people.
But not a lot of emphasis, or not a lot of time is spent on looking at it from
the other perspective, on how an autistic person often struggles to understand

(27:10):
or relate or empathize with the neurotypical.
And when you have a situation or a sensitivity or a limitation or a struggle,
I don't know, whatever you want to call it, that is mundane or normal or basic or even strange,

(27:30):
then it's hard to understand not just why you need to do it,
but why it matters to you.
And the one that I will use over and over and over again is my most common one,
which is, as an autistic person, one of the things that I struggle with a lot
is understanding my own emotions.
I went through a lot of struggles, especially early on, where I was said to

(27:57):
have anger issues, and I was said to have depression, and I was said to.
Not know how to emotionally regulate myself, and I would push people.
There's a lot of problems. So emotional expression and emotional understanding
was a challenge for me for a lot of my life.
And so one of my own ways of dealing with it, especially with Leah,

(28:19):
is to use her brain or functionality, I guess, to better understand appropriateness.
So i will i will go to her
and i will say this thing
makes me very sad and she will say okay so what do you want what do you want
to do and i said i don't want to do anything i just want it to be acknowledged

(28:44):
that it makes me sad and for a long time she struggled with that she says why
why if you if you don't want anything done about that why do you talk about it why do you bring it
up why do you express it and i was like good for
you i guess and and that is that
was a challenge and i explained to her that for
me it's like you're you're

(29:04):
handing this broken thing this this small you know whatever it is this inanimate
emotional bubble to a person that you care about and you trust and you put it
in their hands and you go you know can you can you take this from me and do something with it.
And a lot of the time, what you want done with it is just acknowledgement.

(29:27):
And the reaction comes across as patronizing.
Because a neurotypical oftentimes doesn't need to have something acknowledged and then just left.
It would actually come across as callous or patronizing. Yeah,
it's a thing that you're actually taught never to do.
So, for example, when somebody says, I'm really upset at you for doing the blah, blah, blah.

(29:49):
You're never supposed to say i'm sorry you
felt that way right ever because that is
shirking responsibility and that's making sort of
them responsible for their feelings but you didn't do anything right so it was
actually a thing you were asking me to do that is contrary to everything that
we're taught about right and the reason that leah is the person that i approach

(30:13):
is because i I love her and I trust her.
And I'm taking something that I struggle with, which is an emotion,
and I'm putting it in her hands.
And I'm saying, look at it. Look at this poor sad emotion or look at this poor angry emotion.
And the reaction I'm looking for is, oh, this is such a sad little emotion.

(30:34):
And then I can go, yeah, it is, isn't it? And then I feel better.
I know it sounds absolutely bonkers to a lot of you out there.
It might make sense to some of you out there. I'd actually like to hear from
other people who have this phenomenon.
But I have always been taught that apologies with no action mean nothing.
I've always been taught that you're not supposed to say, I'm sorry you feel

(30:55):
that way. You're supposed to say, I'm sorry I did the thing.
So it was a high learning curve for me.
Because I was like, honey, I'm so sorry you're upset about that.
Now what do you want me to do with this? And there was literally zero.
Exactly. And you'd be like, I don't know, give me a hug. Right.
So it's the minimum effort for the maximum outcome.

(31:17):
And I still would love to be able to shed more light on it because it's a fascinating principle.
But for me, it's really about the fact that I've struggled often in my life
with understanding my own emotions.
And so what i'm really saying
is this this thing is sadness right and

(31:38):
she'll go yeah it's sadness i'll go okay thank you it
it helps me feel more safe and secure in having
a feeling because sometimes i'll react a certain way and it will be related
to something completely unrelated emotional dysregulation and emotional misidentification
i'm really upset and so i'm I'm going to do something that's not related to

(32:02):
being upset. I don't pick a thing.
Whereas the way that I work, and a lot of other neurotypicals tend to work as
far as I know, is that if you're upset about a thing, once the thing is resolved, the upset goes away.
Right. Because there's no thing to be upset about anymore, so why do it?
Now, this actually works in reverse too, because it's not so dissimilar from

(32:26):
something that a lot of neurotypicals do in relationships where they will sit
down with their partner at dinner or they will come to bed and go,
oh, that person at work today made me so upset.
They did the whatever, and then they asked for a thing, and then I was feeling
this, and I did that, and it was just awful.

(32:47):
I had such a bad day because of this person.
And when you talk to an autistic person, you generally, they're looking for an answer.
They're looking for expression. They're looking for a thing.
And a concept that is not that
is similar to that but not something that

(33:07):
we are very good at doing is acknowledgement
and again it sounds completely contradictory because on one hand i'm asking
for acknowledgement but on the other hand they're looking for an acknowledgement
and yes but what i'm wanting acknowledged is far more complex and you may not
have thought the entire thing through in order to acknowledge it correctly.

(33:29):
Right. What you're asking for is, is this sad? Yeah, it's sad.
Okay, well, that's a very simple thing. Whereas this person asked me for this,
then why is it, why are you upset about that, Leah?
Well, it might be because I told you six other times that that person asked
me for it and it's not my job. You haven't yet calculated that part.
Exactly. It becomes a very complex scenario. And the end of that story is,

(33:53):
I don't actually want you to do anything.
I just want you to go, yeah, that Carol is such a bad person.
Just agree with the person. Yeah, exactly.
Whereas for an autistic, I can see where that's hard because it's like,
what am I agreeing with? I'm not in this situation. I have no idea.
Yes, I wasn't there. How do I know that she was?
I know that you feel that way, but why is the result that you're looking for

(34:16):
for me to acknowledge that that person is a bad person? Right.
Because I said so, and you have to agree with me, and that's a concept that
you struggled with a lot. You just want agreement. You want understanding.
But it's a very difficult concept, and empathy in that sense is hard,
because I have no frame of reference.

(34:36):
I mean, maybe if I know the person, I know, yeah, I know, the last time that
this happened, this happened too.
That brings up a topic that we also acknowledged again today,
but we discussed a long time ago, which is agreeing, always backing up your
partner, agreeing with them in public, even if you know they're wrong,
and talking to them about it later. Yes.
That is a very, again, a very difficult concept for autistics because they are autistic people.

(35:00):
And again, I want to just whoa back and go, I say it's a difficult concept for
autistics, not because I'm saying that all autistics struggle with it,
but because oftentimes this comes up.
It's a, if you will, a stereotype that they're very factual.
If you feel like a
person is not correct then it is the instinct of

(35:21):
them to go out actually that's not what happened and what we fail to grasp is
it doesn't matter right it doesn't matter that that's what happened exactly
this is how it made me feel and that's what i'm telling you about right i think
this actually goes back to a point
where one of our friends actually we're pretty to get friends with now,
said something that bothered me. And you were like, why does it bother you?

(35:44):
And I was like, it bothers me because it does. And now it bothers you too,
mister. And it was a fight.
Because if I don't understand the reason for a person to be upset.
Or angry and when i hear
it back i still don't understand it then the
default needs to be just we can talk about it

(36:05):
but just in public say yeah you're you
were out of line doing that thing and then later though why why why were you
upset about that like what why was that why was she out of line i don't understand
but that is the thing you always have to be open to that private discussion
later or else it does cause issues so all of that is to say in summarize that
the The beginning of our relationship was rough.

(36:27):
It was. It was hours and hours and hours of miscommunications and sort of yelling
at each other in the same language, but a different language to just come to
the conclusion that we were saying the same thing to each other, really.
This is to say that communication is— I mean, our romantic relationship at this point.
Again, I'll probably have to do a small episode explaining this whole thing.

(36:50):
I, we intended when we went through all the episode ideas that we were thinking about,
that we were going to do an episode that's exclusively dealing with some of
the more difficult times in
our relationship and sort of talking about it in an open and honest way.
Because the reality is for any relationship, when you move from friendship,

(37:11):
which is very close and very nice, to a romantic relationship,
the stakes get very high.
The exponential growth of the stakes between you two is scary for anyone.
And if you're having communication issues, it's hard. It's really hard.
So what is... So I have a note here. It's really funny. Sometimes I make myself laugh.

(37:33):
All it says is double autism, question mark.
And I don't really remember the reference, but I feel like we're going to explore
the idea of the double empathy problem between two autistics because theoretically
they should be able to understand each other better.
But there are times where you'll tell Avram something and he'll take it so literally
that it's not even what you said.

(37:55):
Yes. And it's kind of almost a humorous comedy of errors, if you will.
Because Avram and I connect best when we're both acting autistic.
But we connect the worst when I'm attempting to act how I perceive as normal.

(38:16):
Because when you shut down the parts of your mind that allow you to understand
things that are oftentimes nonsensical or subtle,
then you're preventing yourself from being able to understand the curiosities
that are going on with the autistic mind.

(38:37):
And oftentimes Avram will look at me and go, you're feeling this way because
of this, right? And I'm like, yeah.
And sometimes Avram will say something. And I'll be like, this is why he's saying
this. And it turns out that I'm right.
Because I can notice things, and I can detect things, and I can receive things
that other people might not be looking for necessarily.
Right. But I feel like what we're discussing here, or what I was trying to discuss, is the opposite.

(39:02):
So where even you two won't understand each other necessarily.
And we won't. So I think maybe the other day you asked him to put his shoes
on. Yes. And in your mind, that included putting his socks on.
Yes. And he just put his shoes on. And you were like, socks?
Socks and was like you didn't say socks right and
to me i was like oh look that was sort of double autism right

(39:23):
there double autism because i'll i'll say a thing without
any you know descriptors and he'll
do a thing based on how he interpreted what i said and
took it completely literally and a lot
of the time it it becomes a problem and it
it creates a lot of humorous situations where you
would look at the situation well you should know better than

(39:45):
to to do the effect it it is if any of the
major networks wants to pick up you know our sitcom it would
be very funny it would be it would be
a very interesting situation that deals
specifically with autistic people misunderstanding
each other and in it could get very neared i i i would definitely you know maybe

(40:08):
it's it's the newest it's the newest sitcom on on network television you know
We put two autistics in a house together and watch what happens.
So that brings me to misunderstandings. That's a very broad topic, but pretty simple.
I think a lot of our podcast in general has been discussing misunderstandings and how they happen.

(40:30):
When we have misunderstandings, how do we deal with them?
And misunderstandings often should, at the very least, involve the sentence,
what did you mean by that?
Right. Because I have mentioned to Leah, and I can mention to our audience,
that a lot of the things that I say are not actually the things that I necessarily

(40:52):
mean, or that the thing that I'm saying is not meant to be taken the way that
it would possibly be interpreted as.
And you could say well why don't you just say what
you mean and the answer is because i am or i
don't necessarily know what i mean or i'm saying a thing
that resembles the thing that i'm trying to say and leah

(41:14):
mentioned i think in in a previous episode that i often use the word adjacent
to the word that i'm trying to say and it it becomes i don't know is there like
an actual condition where you talk in words that are resembling but not entirely
like the words you're trying to say? I believe it's called autism.

(41:34):
Right, okay. I think actually it may be called a seizure. Don't quote me,
but I'd have to look it up.
It's an interesting concept because when—I'm trying to think of a specific example
recently that I said a thing, but I actually meant the thing adjacent to the thing that I was
trying to say and and it can be something as simple

(41:55):
as honey do you remember where where
where uh the thing was and i'll be like it's in
the living room i i mean the kitchen right actually i can't think of your most
recent one but i remember a funny one that my grandmother said once she was
trying to say that her toe was bothering her and she pointed at her toe and
she said my foot finger is bothering you my foot finger that kind of thing the finger of the foot?

(42:20):
My foot finger, that is completely understandable as far as I can see it.
Maybe she was neurodivergent. Maybe.
And a funny thing that I don't know if it's the same thing or not that used
to happen to me at work. I've worked for a long time in call centers.
And a lot of the funniest moments, which we will get into,

(42:41):
a lot of the funniest moments in our relationship and in my life overall have
come with the way that I express myself and the funny things that I end up doing.
And one of the funniest things, which actually isn't that uncommon now that

(43:02):
I've talked to people about it, is when I would want to put people on hold,
I would ask them if I could hold them for a second.
And in my mind, it was like, yeah, hold, hold them. You know,
can I put you on hold? Can I hold you?
It made perfect sense in my mind. I'm asking to hold you.

(43:22):
I'm taking hold, and I'm applying it to you, so therefore, can I hold you for a second?
And people have laughed, and they've said, well, I mean, I don't know how that's
going to work, or if you really want to, I guess.
Or they'll just be, like, the joke will just, they'll just be like, what?
I don't understand what you mean. But it happens a lot, unfortunately. Yeah, it does.

(43:45):
So, ultimately, yes, misunderstandings, asking what did you mean by that?
And our favorite word for this podcast communication about it clears up a lot
of misunderstandings and it does sound like a lot of work but it's worth it
for the future because the next time the same thing happens you're ready to
go like you already know what's happening,
right but it does need to be identified and and this is in no way excusing bad

(44:09):
behavior if if someone says thing and then say what did you mean by that well
i meant this oh okay or or the uh or Or the common thing that a lot of parents
will do with their kids, like when they swear.
And they'll go, excuse me, you want to try that again? Or you want to say that again?
I don't think I heard you. It sounded like you were saying, you know, a bad word.

(44:34):
One of my favorite things that my father used to actually say,
when he would say something ludicrous, he would sort of wiggle the inside of
his ear and say, excuse me, I think I had something stupid in my ear.
Yes, I oftentimes have stupid things in my ear.
So that brings us to our next topic
how long does effective communication take well

(44:57):
that's a very difficult topic well what do you mean in terms of that right so
the first is how long in terms of years does it take to learn how to communicate
with each other or how long does it take to resolve one particular conflict
right or how long does it take to communicate an idea Yeah.
And the reality is for all of those options, it takes as long as it takes. It takes until.

(45:23):
And the reality is you just have to care enough. If you don't care enough,
then you don't have to. You have to care. And because humans are humans.
So often changing and growing and maturing and unfortunately developing conditions
that affect their processing themselves, it really is a lifelong journey.

(45:45):
Because the way that I communicate now is not the way that I communicated a
year ago or five years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
And it may not be, in fact, it quite likely won't be the way that I communicate
in 10 years' time. And yes, what I said before, I meant both ways.
So not just the neurotypical's job to communicate with and understand the neurodivergent,

(46:08):
but the other way around.
Again, it takes until it takes. And if you don't want to do it anymore,
then that's a whole other discussion.
And I mean, certain things will solidify eventually, because we started off
basically constantly misunderstanding each other on a minute-by-minute basis.
And at a certain do you remember the first time i told you you weren't hugging

(46:30):
in kizuna enough yes and you said i bought you a coffee and i'm looking at you
what more do you want yes exactly.
Because that in my mind is is demonstrating love in the way that i thought was
you know effective and it clearly wasn't affection is is is a very difficult
topic to you're going to get so many do

(46:51):
better do you know this from this yes but this
he does better now this is the evolution of of myself and
it really is a matter of learning
both from again from both ends when i do a thing or when i say a thing she knows
that i'm doing this or when she says a thing or acts in a certain way or looks

(47:13):
a certain way or touches me i know that she's probably indicating this but we
didn't know We were literally blind,
deaf, and dumb. Mostly me.
An additional layer of difficulty for Moshe is that I have been known to have,
how do I say this without saying it, resting assertive person face.
Yes. The problem with being not the best at learning social cues and reading

(47:40):
faces, facial recognition is a common thing.
My face is hard to read for neurotypicals, though, because when I'm concentrating
or not doing anything in particular, I just look angry. It's not my fault. I'm not angry.
And I also have facial things that people have called out.
We talked about that in the last episode, the uncanny valley.

(48:02):
Listen to it. Download it and listen to it. Exactly.
So sometimes what I will do with Leah is I will cover her eyes or I'll cover
her face. or I'll say to her, are you upset?
And she'll like cover her mouth and be like, do my eyes look upset?
And if you isolate certain aspects of a person's face, a lot of the time the picture becomes clear.

(48:23):
Because if you're trying to read every line and wrinkle and expression in every
aspect of a person's face, it's hard work.
If you're not very astute at it or you have a deficiency in that, it's a lot of hard work.
I mean, I have to understand what your eyes are saying, your face is saying,
your mouth is saying, your ears are saying, your forehead is saying.

(48:44):
Because everything is different. But if you're like, all right,
just look at my eyes and tell me if you think that I'm upset right now.
And then the picture goes, oh, I see. No, you're actually, you look like you're happy.
Yeah, exactly. That's what is happening.
And alternatively, if someone is smiling and you sort of look in their eyes
and go, oh, they're not happy, their smile doesn't go all the way up to their

(49:07):
eyes as is often the expression.
I would suffer with that. Yeah. Speaking of eyes, we're going to talk about
everybody's favorite topic now, eye contact. Yes.
So eye contact is one of those things that as human beings has come to be very important.
It denotes honesty. It denotes connection.

(49:30):
There are so many love songs about it. I could have stood there lost in your
eyes, blue eyes, hungry eyes.
The eyes are very important in terms of communication between...
Windows of a sun. Yeah, neurotypical people, at least.
It's also a well-known thing that autistics have the diagnostic criteria.
And it's one of those things that people will notice even if a person is highly

(49:52):
masked, they will go, something is not quite right or something is a little off about that person.
What does eye contact mean to an autistic?
And I have a little bit of science to throw in there in a bit just for fun. You always do.
So, that is a very common question that a lot of people will talk to autistics about.

(50:14):
And they'll ask. One of the most common traits of someone with autism or a neurodivergent
is that they have trouble looking people in the eyes. Why is that?
And I can't speak for every autistic. In fact, the podcast kind of indicates that.
But my answer to that question is because looking people in the eyes hurts me.

(50:38):
And it's a difficult thing to explain.
Why does it hurt you? How does it hurt you? What does it make you feel?
It makes me feel overstimulated because eyes,
I guess the best thing that I can say about is that eyes are so expressive in
terms of emotions and feedback that it is a physical aversion,

(51:03):
to look at the average person in the eyes.
And actually, the story that I told last time during our episode about the uncanny
valley is when I would work in an office and I would be speaking to a coworker
or a manager or whatever,
I would, depending on how authoritative they were, I would have difficulty looking

(51:26):
at them in the eye because they're, you know, they're, I don't know,
the expression is staring daggers and it really always feels like being stabbed.
But if someone was standing over me and like giving me a talking to,
I would generally look at the ground because the way that they were looking at me hurt me.
Whereas if I was talking to a coworker or someone that I was friendly with,

(51:48):
I'd be more likely to look them in the eyes, at least sometimes.
And the HR complaint that I had against me was a woman said that I was scanning her body.
But really, she was talking to me, and I was looking at her,
finding it painful, looking away, and then trying to look at her again.
And it really did look like my eyes were going up and down her body.
But really, what they were doing is eye contact, can't do eye contact.

(52:10):
Eye contact, can't do eye contact.
And once that was identified, I was in the clear. But that was all due to an
aversion to eye contact. Yes, and it's a very kind of sad and sweet because
I love, love, love his eyes. I love them.
But we met when we were seven, as I said, and I don't know that I knew the color

(52:31):
of his eyes until we were like 15.
Right, but that was as much due to the fact that I kept losing my glasses as
I had difficulty making eye contact.
No, but there was just one day when you started looking me directly in the eye.
Yeah. And it didn't occur to me before that you weren't, but I certainly noticed
after you were, because it was beautiful and it was sweet and it was a connection

(52:52):
that we hadn't had before.
That's not to say that all autistics struggle with it or that all autistics
struggle with it to the extent that many do.
And I would say that I fall somewhere in the middle in that I can sustain eye
contact a lot of the time. I'm not always with Leah and other people that I'm very close to.

(53:15):
It's generally a lot easier for me.
But I know that there are some autistics that actually there's this woman that
I follow occasionally on Facebook who talks about her experiences as an autistic
mom of a neurotypical child.
And all of her pictures on Facebook are of her like looking away or looking

(53:39):
up or looking down to the extent.
And she told me that people will often ask her if she's blind or.
Because she's always like, her eyes are always moving around.
Do you think it might just be easier for certain autistic people to say that they're blind?
I think maybe yes, but the fact is, like, she's not blind. Her vision's fine.

(53:59):
It's just when you're looking at something. And interestingly enough,
this also applies to the camera.
Because if you, a lot of the time, and again, this is not universal,
but a lot of the time, I'm an autistic person who has to stare at a camera lens to take a picture.
We'll often have difficulty looking at the camera lens and the camera.
There's not an eye really.

(54:20):
Right. So why, why do you think? I think it might actually be that feeling.
It's looking at, I'm looking at it and it's looking back at me because even
as a neurotypical, I sometimes get camera shire. I'm a nervous.
I have to talk to myself, especially before I'm being video filmed, right?
Like a picture snap is one thing, but I'll still do

(54:41):
the whole thing where I sort of like prepare my eyes and I look up in the
correct way so my face doesn't look weird and whatever but before
I go on camera to really speak I feel vulnerable
I feel like it's looking at me so I I can understand that I I I tend to be very
charismatic so people often like to talk to me and I used to dread doing video

(55:02):
interviews because I I had a lot of difficulty sustaining them because this
is something that presumably
a lot of people are going to watch because everyone wants to hear Moshe's opinion,
but then you get me on camera and I essentially addressed the interview to the ceiling.
And it's like, okay, maybe like what's wrong with it.
When I did that interview in Victoria for the, was it a food blog?

(55:27):
I don't remember exactly.
It was the Shaw T idiot. I think I struggled and they made it a lot easier because
they did it in the interview format. So they put.
The camera sort of to the side and then they made me look
at the guy who was speaking to me so i wasn't looking directly to
the camera it is it is an intimidating thing and i can't understand
why because there's no actual person in the camera at the

(55:48):
time it just feels like the camera itself is moving it does
and some some qualities that because a lot of people will will say especially
if they have children that uh that don't make eye contact because like leah
said that there's this this really inconvenient and I would say unfair perception
that a person who isn't looking you in the eyes is being dishonest, is being shifty.

(56:08):
And I worked for a company in New Brunswick in Canada.
And my manager was always on my case because the lights were really bright.
So I had to wear sunglasses. And he said, no, you can't wear sunglasses at work
because people can't see your face properly.
And it doesn't look honest. And I said, okay, well, you know, do it.

(56:30):
Do I have to, like, people keep saying that you're not looking at them when
they're talking to you because you're not paying attention.
It's a tough subject, honestly. So, what, some strategies.
Before strategies, let me just quickly go into the science of it.
Absolutely. Because it's really interesting. Take it away. Thank you.
So, you can Google these studies yourself. But there have been a couple of recent studies.

(56:54):
I did. where they sat a neurotypical person across from an autistic person and
they hooked them up to EEG machines and they made them look each other in the
eye for as long as they could stand.
And what they noticed was that when autistics would look at people in the eye.
They would have lower than normal activity in their dorsal parietal cortex.

(57:18):
So that's a part of the brain.
Not sure what it's responsible for. I'd have to look that up.
I was going to ask you, what's that responsible for? I don't remember.
I would have to look that up. We can possibly put it up on the website. Maybe.
And it shows less activity in people with ASD.
And the more severe their diagnosis, the lower activity is.

(57:40):
So you would think, because autistics often describe everything being too bright,
too much, too whatever, that it would be more activity, but it's less.
And that interests me on top of that because people with ADHD used to be given sedatives.
And as we know, that's the opposite of what you're supposed to do for ADHD because
their up behavior, their hyper behavior isn't because their brain is doing too

(58:03):
much. It's because their brain is doing too little.
So did you catch, I see Michelle looking it up. What is the dorsal parietal
cortex responsible for?
So, according to one paper, the dorsal parietal cortex is responsible for top-down orienting,

(58:23):
whereas the ventral parietal cortex is responsible for bottom-up orienting. So, orientation.
So, essentially, it's like… So, vestibular orientation? Yeah,
so it's essentially like, it controls something to do with knowing,
you know, your field of vision.

(58:44):
It has to do with the field of vision that goes from the top to the bottom.
Interesting. I don't know what that means. I don't know what...
Well, I mean, I know that there are more senses than we talk about,
and one of them is the vestibular sense, which orientates yourself in space,
and autistics often score poorly in that area.
Right. Again, do your own research or we can look into it more for you.

(59:07):
Maybe do a little write-up on our website.
Maybe it could be a YouTube video or something.
So just a quick note about that, just because I found it kind of interesting.
One of my talents is speed reading. So I can kind of look at a paragraph and
go zip. It is. Oh, there's something.
So what is top-down orienting me? And the example they give is go to the produce
aisle of your local supermarket.
Market, you will notice that a lot of the higher priority items are higher and

(59:34):
the less priority ones are lower because your natural state is to look from
the top to the bottom rather than from the bottom to the top.
So things that are at the top are more likely to catch your attention than things at the bottom.
So, but, but they, but they determined that interruptions often happen from the bottom to the top.

(01:00:02):
For example, if you, if you're looking at something, your more,
your natural state is to look from the top to the bottom.
But when you're surprised or interrupted, you actually look from the bottom up.
Up they discovered a phenomenon that if you
if you annoy someone that they're like reading a

(01:00:24):
book and you like poke them they'll actually
go like this rather than you know because your
your attention comes from the bottom up but your focus comes from the top down
so they suspect that it has something to do with attention with the ability
to focus and and pay attention to certain things i don't know make of that way

(01:00:45):
you will if you have any opinions or feelings maybe it is exactly the situation you discussed.
Somebody's body is essentially just a bunch of body parts, but when you get
to the eyes, everybody must admit, you're typical or not, that the eyes are
a different thing. Absolutely.
So it might just be the interruption. It's jarring. They're unlike other parts of the body.
Anyway, write to us, let us know what you think about this.

(01:01:06):
And if you want more of it, we'll figure it out. It seems like we tapped into
a more complicated topic than we had initially thought.
So all of this is to say, in conclusion, I want to ask, should we insist on
eye contact, or should the world just be me to be a bit more accommodating of that situation?
I think that applying values to bodily function.

(01:01:29):
Is unfair. Because everyone is different. And saying that somebody who doesn't
make eye contact is dishonest is like saying that somebody who has bad posture is lazy.
Any interrogation investigator will tell you, somebody who is making up a lie
will actually look up and to the left.
So if a person is not looking up and to the left, they're likely not lying.

(01:01:51):
Fair enough. And I've heard that as well.
I think that eye contact is not necessarily the But be all and end all,
there's a lot of different ways, as you said, up and to the left to denote that someone's dishonest.
And as an interesting conclusion to that, if I'm really paying attention to
something, with someone talking, I'll actually often close my eyes.

(01:02:14):
And that's doubly purpose, because I actually find that reducing the visual
stimulation causes me to pay more attention. And I've seen people be multiple
ways on understanding, for sure.
But also some people are like, what is wrong with you? And I've seen it happen.
Happen people will say oh am i boring you oh
you're falling asleep you're not paying any attention and

(01:02:37):
actually i had a counselor a therapist once
who i was having difficulty at school and
the therapist or whatever came to our house and i i was sitting there listening
to what he was saying and my eyes were closed and my parent was like well look
look he's not even paying attention doesn't even care about what you're saying
and it was the therapist that but looked at me and said, no, actually,

(01:03:02):
he's paying extra attention.
He's really listening because he's closed off his visual input in order to take
in better what I'm trying to express.
So that is an interesting little anecdote to end on.
So what I'm taking at your opinion is we shouldn't force our contact on.
Yes. That is my opinion as well. Let us know what your opinion is.

(01:03:23):
Thank you for listening.
Well, that's our show for today. now you know one
autistic just a little bit better so something you may not know about some autistics
is that we often struggle with ending social interactions so leia all right
i'll take care of it thank you for listening to now you know one autistic see you next week.

(01:03:49):
Music.