Lyssa de Hart talks with Claire Pedrick about her personal and professional journey, including her transition from therapy to coaching and her experiences with dyslexia and ADHD. They explore Lyssa's book, Light Up the Science of Coaching with Metaphors, and its use in facilitating different ways of thinking.
And plenty of rich stuff about the ICF exam and the importance of documenting hours and maintaining records for future accreditations. Here’s the information about ICF exam prep with Lyssa
Contact Lyssa de Hart https://lyssadehart.com/
Check out this episode on video with subtitles on our YouTube Channel
Coming soon: Using Coaching in the Third Sector and much much more with Mark Bixter
Keywords:
coaching journey, ICF exam, metaphors, cognitive load, ICF credentialing, Lyssa deHart, Claire Pedrick
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello and welcome to this week's editionof The Coaching In.
I'm Claire Pedrick, your host, and todayI'm in conversation with Lyssa de Hart,
who I've known all about.
Well, not all about, I've known a littlebit about Lyssa for a long time, and it's
high time that we had a conversation.
Welcome, Lyssa.
High time.
(00:24):
And thank you so much for having me here,Claire.
I'm really excited because you're somebodyI've known.
a little bit about for a long time aswell.
And so I'm really looking forward togetting to know you.
So listeners, just know this is absolutelyreal and in real time and we haven't had a
pre -conversation.
So Lissa, tell me about you and yourcoaching journey.
(00:47):
Oh, goodness.
It is been sort of a, it's sort of a, it'sa funny thing.
I'm gonna just share a very early story.
I...
got my undergraduate degree in fine arts.
And as a result of that, I was a waitressthrough most of college.
And after college, I was still a waitress.
And I think there was a moment in timethat I was probably about, I don't know,
(01:13):
26 years old.
And I had actually finally gotten anotherjob where I wasn't a waitress, but the
waitress job really led me to think, Iwant to ask a more important question.
Right?
And it was like, you know, how would youlike that cook?
Do you need more dressing?
What kind of tea?
Whatever, right?
Like it was those kinds of questions, butI was just really driven at that point to
(01:37):
want to ask a more important question.
And that was the thing that spurred meinto going into social work, which is
where I got my master's work.
And I started asking more importantquestions as a result of that.
Fast forward, I...
I worked for the state and then for themilitary, for the Air Force here in the
(01:57):
states for about 10 years.
And then I left that and went into privatepractice and I spent about 10 years in
private practice working as a therapistwho specialized in complex trauma, PTSD
and dissociative disorders andrelationship issues because none of those
other things seem to happen without arelationship of some sort.
(02:21):
And so they seemed very interconnected tome.
And then my husband had an opportunity tomove to the Pacific Northwest with his
job.
And we had taken a coach training in about2007, 2008 timeframe.
And I was like, I'm a therapist.
I don't need that coaching thing.
(02:43):
It's, you know, how great is it anyway?
I don't know.
When we get up here and I'm like, it'sreally clear that I'm burned out.
Like I hadn't known that I was burned out,but I knew I was burned out when I was up
here and had a moment to be silent for alittle bit and not have a bunch of
pressure on me.
And I thought, well, I could go dosomething completely different and go back
(03:07):
to school, or maybe instead of throwingthe baby with the bath water, I could
reevaluate this whole coaching thing.
And so in 2014, I went to my
my first ICF event up in the PacificNorthwest.
Back in 2008, I had been a part of the ICFdown in the New Mexico chapter.
(03:29):
So I was familiar with ICF.
I had been a member of ICF, but I went toan event up in the Pacific Northwest and
it was like, you know, I like these peopleand you know, I think there's probably
something here for me to learn and I don'twanna go back to school for another
graduate degree.
So.
Um, let me check out this coaching thing.
(03:50):
And that's sort of the long convolutedstory of how I ended up in coaching.
How interesting.
So a journey from waitress, sorry, thatdid make me think of a song, but we'll
leave our listeners to do with that song.
No, no, no, no, no, no,
(04:15):
Yeah.
And then therapy and then into coaching.
So you've moved quite fast in coaching,haven't you?
Well, I mean, if you consider fast 20 oddyears, given the fact that, I mean, in 95,
I had finished my graduate work and I wasdoing what was effectively solution focus,
(04:36):
goal oriented therapy, which is not sodissimilar from coaching.
And I,
You know, I mean, I had run groups and Ihad been talking to groups of people and
doing that work from 1995.
So, yeah, it was really quick.
I went really quickly.
But I went quickly through the the levelsand credentials from because I got my ACC
(05:04):
in 2014.
Now, I could have gotten my ACC earlier.
I had the hours.
I just didn't see the relevance at thatpoint.
And so thankfully, I kept.
my hours organized.
So I had them.
And so I was able to apply for my ACC.
I actually had almost 1000 hours at thatpoint.
(05:27):
But I didn't feel confident that Iunderstood what coaching was.
And so I really just was like, I'll get myACC, I'll really dive into coach
development, and I will.
see if this is really something I'minterested in.
And as I got into the coach developmentand was taking classes, and so a shout out
(05:49):
to Janet Harvey, because she wasinstrumental in my journey into coaching,
I was able then to go with a bigger visionand a broader understanding of what
coaching was capable of, and also how itwas different than therapy.
(06:10):
And it started to really excite me.
And so at that point, I got my PCC in 2016and then my MCC in 2018.
And it was because I had all this othertraining beforehand, but I'd finally been
able to, I'm not sure what the word is I'mlooking for right this second, but there
(06:30):
was an integration that happened betweenwhat I knew as a therapist and what I
understood now as a coach.
and that intersection between the two ofthem was so enlivening.
And I was like, I love this.
And so that made it really easy to moveinto MCC.
(06:53):
I think the other thing that made itreally easy to move into MCC was I was
teaching at a coaching school.
And so I was really learning aboutcoaching.
I also took the PCC marker training backin 2010.
I don't know, I wanna say 2017, might'vebeen 2018.
I can't remember, I think it was 2017.
(07:14):
And I, no, it was 2018.
Sorry, as I try and figure out my dates.
2018, and I was like, understanding again,the next deeper level of what coaching
could be.
And so that development really led to theMCC being achievable in a short amount of
time.
(07:35):
It wasn't a short amount.
Yeah, the kind of the 20 years prior.
So I love there's something there in whatyou're saying about the formation of you
and making some intentional choices.
But the formation of you felt like it wasthe most important thread there.
(07:57):
You know, I think I remember, you know,this was sort of more about who I was as a
human being, but I remember at 18, I madea decision.
I had grown up in one area of the countryand I had this sense of I didn't really
like the kind of person I was turninginto.
My friends were the friends that I hadgrown up with and were going to high
(08:19):
school with.
And there was something, and they were alllovely people, but I was kind of in a rut
that I felt like was gonna be really hardto get out of.
And I wasn't sure that I liked thetrajectory that that rut was taking me as
far as the kind of person I wanted to be.
And so I remember saying to my dad,
You know, I want to leave the state and goto another school because I think I need
(08:40):
to figure out who I really am going to beas a human being.
And I have this vision of myself, likewhen I'm old, you know, 30, that I'll be
able to like, if I could be that kind ofperson when I get there, that's what I
want to be.
And that's the direction I want to go.
And I think I felt like there was areally,
I think at 18, you have these ideas abouthow hard things are.
(09:02):
And I think at that time, I thought itwould be so hard to become that kind of
person in the environment that I was in.
And because of that mindset, I think I'maccurate.
I think in hindsight, from my perspective,30, 40 -odd years later, I think that's a
good thing.
I, it would have absolutely been possibleto make those, those shifts wherever I
(09:23):
found myself, but I didn't know that atthat time.
And so I did leave and I went to adifferent school in a different state.
And for me, it was that sense of I wantedto become a certain kind of person.
And I think the same thing really appliesin the work that I've done.
I've always sort of had a vision of thissort of value I wanted to bring to people.
(09:45):
And I've strove very hard, strived,stroved very hard to do the work that I
needed to do in order to be able to do thework that I do.
And so I did the work so that I could dothe work if that makes any sense.
Yeah, yeah.
So you now do all sorts of things,including your enormous service to
(10:08):
students who are going for the ICF exam.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
And what an accident that was for me also.
I am very dyslexic.
And it was sort of the thing that as a kidwas really limiting because you're told
all the time, you're such a bright kid.
You just need to try harder.
And I don't know, for all those people outthere with neurodiverse brains, I think
(10:34):
there's all these messages that we getabout.
trying harder, doing it better.
Like you're so smart, why can't you?
Why is this so hard?
You're just not trying hard enough.
And I certainly was given that messagequite a bit as a kid.
I will say my mom spent a tremendousamount of time reading with me.
So I loved, I finally got to the placewhere I loved reading and books, but I
(10:59):
just, I knew what words meant, but like ifyou asked me to spell one, good luck.
And I go in June of 2022 when that test isfinally, they put the sample scenarios up
on the ICF website and I go, I'm gonnacheck out this new exam.
(11:20):
I'm gonna do these scenarios.
I'm an MCC.
I should be able to ace this thing.
And I was like, holy moly cow.
I wouldn't pass this exam.
And I think from the position of,
how my brain works and how this exam wasstructured, I was like, I gotta break this
(11:40):
down.
And so I really started from a place oflike, this is a puzzle, I'm gonna figure
it out.
And there's no hack for this exam.
People ask me all the time, like, is therea hack for this exam?
Yes, the hack is study and reallyintegrate your understanding of the
competencies and code of ethics.
But there's no like easy hack for like howto figure out the right,
(12:03):
question or the right answer best or worstjust based on a verb.
Like I hear this all the time, you know,there's a verb.
And in fact, in August of 2022, when I didmy first training on like August 2nd of
2022, it might've been August 1st, thatwas the thing that came up.
Somebody told me if I just look for theverb, then it would give me the answer for
(12:25):
the best.
And...
And I was like, huh, maybe there'ssomething to that.
But what I've discovered since August of2022 is that there's an answer set that
will be coach asks, asks, asks, asks, oroffers, offers, offers, offers, or
inquires, inquires, inquires, inquires,right?
Like you cannot stop at the verb.
(12:47):
You really have to go past the verb.
And so it might be an indicator, but it'snot the only indicator.
And I think for me, it was thisrecognition that if I were having this
kind of trouble and I had been in coacheducation, I had been trained in the
markers, I was assessing coaching calls, Iwas an MCC, theoretically, I understand
(13:12):
the competencies at some level, one wouldassume based on all of my training at that
point.
And I didn't feel confident that I wouldpass this exam.
I felt like I cannot possibly be the onlyone.
And that was really the impetus.
And then people were like, do you havemore?
Do you have more?
Do you have more?
And that was the sort of the building ofthis, the support system that I started to
(13:36):
create around this, this exam.
Well, we're very grateful.
The neurodivergent community is verygrateful and everyone else, but there are
a lot of coaches aren't there who areneurodivergent.
I would say if, if there's a hundredpercent of people on the planet,
I would say probably it would, I don'tknow, I'll go with the Pareto principle,
(13:59):
right?
80 % of them are neurodiverse in some way.
And it doesn't all show up like my, Imean, and that's the thing.
Like if you have an anxiety that shows uparound exam taking, it doesn't show up
anywhere else in your life.
It's a neurodiversity issue because,
(14:19):
you have a response, your brain is havinga response to a stimulus.
And then there's just the way our wiringis.
And if what happens, like for me, I mean,one of the things I had to learn how to do
was just memorize words.
And so I have a big vocabulary now becauseI spent a lot of time memorizing words,
(14:43):
but I don't like look like.
if you just spelled something for me, Iwouldn't know what the word was
necessarily, unless it was really simpleor something that I see all the time.
But I mean, like I would be terrible at aspelling bee just saying, but I have
memorized so many things.
And I think there's all these workaroundsthat we do in with whatever are the way
(15:06):
that our brain works.
And it was so interesting.
And I hope you don't mind me sharing thisstory, but I had one of this,
participants in my prep program come havea one -on -one with me.
And she started off with such shame, justlike an epic amount of shame.
And she was talking and she was like, Ican't even tell you like what it is that's
(15:30):
going on with me.
It's just so, I'm just so ashamed and I'mreally struggling with this exam.
I'm struggling with your scenarios.
I don't understand these answer options.
They're so nuanced.
I can't figure it out.
And I said,
And as she's talking, she's like, andnobody understands and da da da da da da.
And she just, all of this shame is justlike all over her face.
(15:53):
And I said, may I stop you?
And she said, sure.
And I said, and she was probably my ageand they didn't do assessments in the
seventies for kids.
I don't even know if they did them in theeighties, you know, but they certainly
didn't do them when I was in grade school.
So I didn't know I was dyslexic until Ithought I was when it finally became a
(16:17):
word that was bandied about, but it wasn'tuntil I was like, I don't know, 40 when I
got an actual assessment done so that Icould take an exam that was really, really
hard that I discovered not only am Idyslexic, but I'm also ADHD.
And I didn't even realize that based onall of these little, you know, it's a
(16:37):
pretty extensive assessment you go throughwith a lot of.
testing they do to kind of see how yourmind and memory works, right?
And I pulled mine up because I had foundmine because in case I need to take the
exam, I need to be ready because I do havethe paperwork now.
But I said, this is my educationaldiagnosis of like how my brain works.
(17:00):
And you could just see like this reliefwash through that like, yes.
I have, you know, I believe I'm dyslexic,but I don't have any paperwork.
And I'm like, not a surprise.
But I think there's just such shameinvolved in it also for people in the
neurodiverse community that we should, youknow, try a little harder and then we'd be
(17:24):
able to get it versus how do we need to betaking this exam or any exam for that
matter that will give us the best option.
or opportunity to take this exam well.
And so I talked a lot about that withpeople in my program because I mean, I
(17:45):
would get it from my back because I needto have a standup, sit down desk, forget
about my need for time just so I can readfully what it is I'm reading.
So anyway, I'll stop here, but I thinkit's just a lot of, there's a lot of shame
for people around this.
Yeah, yeah.
We have a lot of people in our communitywho are neurodiverse.
(18:09):
In fact, it's the next book, you and Ineed to have a different conversation
about that at a different time.
Is it fair for the ICF to be assessingcoaches using this exam?
So I have two thoughts on that.
One,
This exam, when you integrate theunderstanding, even as a neurodiverse
(18:32):
person, when you integrate yourunderstanding of the competencies and code
of ethics, this exam demonstrates that youhave that in your bones in a way that I
have never seen another exam do.
I mean, situational judgment means you'remaking judgments in a situation sort of on
(18:53):
the spot.
The thing that...
And I mean, ICF has not asked me and Ihope they don't come after me for saying
this, but at what point do you need, howmany scenarios do you really need?
What is the purpose of this three hoursfor 81 scenarios where a person has
roughly two minutes, 22 seconds to assessbest and worst because we are not talking.
(19:17):
I mean, this is something that likemilitary systems teach is situational
judgment testing where they have like,
person in a bag, the bag comes up, badthings are happening or nothing is
happening.
They have to make an instant life or deathdecision, bag comes down, bag comes up,
new scenario.
But that's not what we're doing here incoaching.
(19:38):
We're not in that kind of life or deathsituation typically.
If we are, please call whatever yourversion of 911 is.
But...
But I think, so I think there's acognitive load that happens with 81
scenarios in three hours that I think is,regardless of whether you have a
neurodiversity issue or not, it's still acognitive load to try and navigate that
(20:05):
much words, that many words, that manychoices.
So like, where did the number 81 comefrom?
Why not 50?
Why not 41?
Right?
And,
And then the timeframe, I mean, I thinkjust from a cognitive perspective, it
doesn't take much to throw a brain intofear, right?
(20:28):
So on that sort of threat safety spectrum,and I talked a lot about that in my work
also, but if your brain perceives athreat, even if it's a completely
existential threat, like I have threehours to take 81 scenarios, which nobody's
gonna die, but.
The existential threat still, your braindoesn't know the difference.
(20:49):
It's still a piece of how your brain isresponding to the constraint.
And so from my perspective, it's like, whynot give everybody four hours?
Why not give some people five hours ifthey need it?
Like it doesn't matter.
If the point is that what you're assessingis that they understand conceptually and
(21:10):
in their bones, the competencies and codeof ethics.
How many do we really need and why do wehave a time limit?
I don't know.
Other than maybe that's something with thetesting facility that they don't want
somebody sitting there for five hours.
I don't know.
Then half, like half the number ofscenarios.
I think the scenarios are good.
(21:32):
I think they're important.
I think being able to assess best andworst is incredibly...
useful.
It's a useful exercise and really learninghow to calibrate yourself to what the
competencies are.
And I have heard from so many people, andI think I had put out on LinkedIn, you
know, I've touched over 5 ,000 people atthis point on with this exam.
(21:55):
And I have consistently heard from people,regardless of whether they liked the exam
or not, that this is coach education.
Yeah.
And so and so I think there's a real valueto the exam.
I just think there are some things thatwould make it more accessible for more
(22:16):
people to do better on it.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
And I know that people find it reallyvaluable because what you've just
described, I just did a little sum on mypiece of paper.
You've described 243 switches.
So scenario, best, worst, scenario, best,worst.
(22:37):
So you're talking about 243 different waysof looking at a thing.
But that's probably a differentconversation that needs to happen in a
different place.
But team, some real wisdom in Lissa'sstuff.
And I'll put a link to all of her thingsin the show notes so that you could follow
that up.
And.
I hope you didn't miss that amazing tipshe dropped in really early on about keep
(22:59):
your hours organized if credentialing ison your horizon.
And even if it's not, because you neverknow when you go, you know what?
Now it is.
Yeah.
How am I going to find all those people?
I remember sitting in a friend's home, acolleague's home office 10 years ago.
(23:19):
And if you're listening, you know exactlywho you are.
They were going for the PCC and we had togo through all their diaries.
It was horrendous.
Yeah, no, it's so much easier.
Even if you don't think you're ever goingto need it to just do it.
If you're ever thinking that you might,because at some point, I mean, and I don't
(23:41):
know what's going to happen with, withcountries and governments and state
requirements for being a coach, but I do.
have a vision in my mind that if myhairdresser needs a license to cut my
hair, that at some point coaches are goingto need to have some sort of state or
(24:03):
governmental credentials that say they cancall themselves a professional executive
or life coach kind of thing.
And at that point, you may never havethought you were ever going to do it.
But if you have those hours set aside andyou have your original and you've kept
your
CEUs and documents and things like that,you can at least go and get a credential,
(24:26):
an ACC credential, even if nothing else.
Yeah.
Yes.
We say that to all of our students.
It doesn't matter if you don't need to doanything else.
Just go be a great coach and document yourhours.
And document your hours.
Forget that you don't need to do anythingelse.
Just that.
(24:46):
Those two very crucial things.
Well, thank you, because I know that lotsof our listeners, you know, not all of our
listeners are in the ICF tribe, but thosewho are will have found that a really
interesting and useful thing.
And I'm and I love the stance from whichyou've you've come to that.
And I think that there'll be somebodygoing immediately now into the show notes
(25:07):
who will press pause on listening to thisand will sign up for one of your classes.
Yeah.
And hopefully I can then support them instarting to really look at how these
scenarios and answer sets are structuredso that they have some ways of thinking
about them, not just being afraid of them.
(25:29):
Yeah.
Thank you.
So let's leave the ICF.
All right.
Tell me about your new book.
Let's do a switch.
Having talked about switches.
Just warning, here comes a switch.
Here comes the switch.
So I had my little notes in it because Idid a presentation in New Orleans, but
Light Up, The Science of Coaching withMetaphors is my new book.
(25:51):
And this really, it's sort of interestingas a therapist, you know, I mean, we all
know what metaphors are.
I wasn't like oblivious to a metaphor backwhen I was doing therapy, but I didn't
really think of them with the importancethat I now see them.
And there is,
So what happened was in probably around2017, I'm starting to notice these
(26:15):
metaphors that just are flowing throughthese conversations.
And I'm also noticing that I'm kind ofhaving fun with them.
And I am very much of a person, as you canprobably tell with the whole, this is a
puzzle.
I kind of did the same thing withmetaphors.
This is a puzzle.
I want to try and understand, like thesethings are showing up so much.
And they seemed to me far more importantthan just a linguistic,
(26:39):
It wasn't just pretty.
And so this led me into really starting toobserve them in my own coaching.
And to that end, I do record a lot of mycoaching sessions.
And even if I'm not using it for mentorcoaching, like, or for when I was going
for different credentials, I would atleast look at them for my own learning and
(27:01):
for a review of what the client offeredand what my question was back to the
client.
And I started noticing how many metaphorswere showing up.
And if I were able to sort of test thehypotheses with one, it might actually
create the container of the coachingconversation in such a way that it made it
(27:24):
easier to discuss something verydifficult, sort of going back to that idea
of cognitive load.
If we're talking about all the thingsyou're not doing well, there's a cognitive
load and threat safety.
there's the existential threat of notbeing good enough, not being perfect, not
doing it right, being a failure, whateverthat is.
(27:44):
And all of those things work againstcreativity and metaphors are fun.
And so I started doing research and atthat point, Lakoff and Johnson's work
really had shown up and...
somehow, you know, you look for stuff onthe internet and then miraculously, all
kinds of stuff pops up that is right alongwhat you're interested in.
(28:07):
And so I started reading about more aboutmetaphors and I started reading research
papers on metaphors and mostly through thelens of linguistics.
And then I saw a study that said thattherapists saw metaphors but didn't really
use them very much.
They didn't think about them in therapy.
And then I was looking at how coaches werebeing trained about metaphors, because I
(28:30):
was working for a school.
And what I was hearing was bring metaphorsto help explain things to clients, right?
Like, so the coach might use the metaphor.
You know, it seems to me that you seem tobe like wrestling with something here, or
you're really, like, it's almost likeyou've got like Atlas, like the weight of
the world on your shoulders, right?
(28:51):
And so the coaches were bringing themetaphors.
And the more I started looking at theseissues around metaphors, and then there
was more and more research, and it's allin my book, so I'm not gonna go into a lot
of detail, but there were these conceptualmetaphors that were really important.
And then there were this idea of targetand source.
(29:11):
And so the source might be something likea full plate, but the target of that would
really be overwhelm.
Right.
And so or vice versa, I'm dyslexic.
So I may have just screwed up my ownexplanation of the theory.
But there's this idea that you've got thisone idea container, a full plate, but what
(29:34):
it's really representing is another thing.
And so the full plate could mean anythingto any different person that you're
talking to.
But it often, and if you're going to testthe hypothesis, it's probably around.
too many choices or overwhelm or I havetoo much on my plate.
And so I was also starting to notice thatthere was a difference between metaphors
(29:56):
that we said out into the world, like lifeis like a bowl of cherries, kind of an
analogy, kind of a simile, but then therewere owned metaphors.
I'm wrestling with this.
My plate is too full.
And so this issue of the owned conceptualmetaphor became something I started to
really look at in my own work.
(30:17):
And as a result of that, and then all thedifferent research that I started doing as
a result of it, it really became clearthat this was an avenue into how brains
conceive and make meaning of theirexperiences.
And so while people may not use metaphorsconsciously, like I'm not thinking when
(30:38):
I'm talking to you, you know, it's like,
I've been trying to figure something out,but my plate has been so full and I just
don't know what to do.
I'm not using the plate metaphorconsciously, but I am using it
intentionally.
My brain has woken up to that particularexperience as a way to communicate this
idea to you.
And if as coaches, we for, not that youshould never offer a metaphor, but if as
(31:04):
coaches, we actually listen to the wordsthat our clients are saying.
Yeah.
Their brain is already there.
You don't have to explain a full plate tothem.
They have a somatic embodied experience ofthe full plate.
And we can resonate with that inpartnership because we too have probably
had a full plate once or twice in our ownlives, right?
(31:25):
We may have eaten the whole plate and beenlike, why did I do that?
So we have these sort of somatic embodiedexperiences that go along with the
metaphors.
So when you start to think about ways thatyou're engaging the brain, you're not just
engaging the head brain, you're engagingthe entire system of the person that
you're working with.
(31:46):
And so to that end, I just, I was like,I've got, I started doing the training on
coaching with the power of metaphors in2018.
And then I was like, I've got to get thisbook written because I then created a
course.
And then it was like,
all the first participants are like, Liz,do not make us read any more research
(32:06):
papers.
Please don't do that to us.
And so that was the impetus really for thebook because I was like all excited about
the research and they were like, well,does it look like that's right.
Just make it easier.
So I made it more digestible and I wrote abook about it.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Isn't it?
And because I often use metaphor andencourage people to do the thing that
(32:29):
they're talking about.
you know, it's all experimentation, isn'tit?
Trying stuff out.
Yes.
You know, and it's so funny, I had aconversation with a client who was trying
to make a big decision and he was like,you know, this is just not comfortable.
I don't know how to make the decision.
And I said, you know, is there any placein your life where you've been able to
(32:54):
make, you know, to change your mind ormake decisions with more ease?
And he said something,
I'm not exactly sure how it all came out,but it was something about, you know,
yeah, like shopping for clothes, you canreturn stuff.
And I'm like, huh, interesting.
And if you were to think of this bigbusiness decision about selling your
company or not selling your company as anoutfit you're trying on, how would you
(33:18):
respond to it differently?
And he's like, yeah, like I could justtake it home.
I could try it on.
I could wear, you know, and so that becamethe entire conversation.
And by the end of it, we're sort oflaughing in the States.
We have this,
And then, and then the outfit that reallyresonates for you after you've played with
(33:51):
it, to your point, you know, just sort ofexperimented and played with it, then
that's the outfit maybe you want to wearfor a while.
I love that.
I had somebody that, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think,
who said, who said the weight of this isso heavy.
So I just said, I said, how about youstand up what's heavy.
And they picked up something really heavy.
And they looked at me on video and theywere like, I can't hold this.
(34:14):
I said, so what are you going to do withit then?
Exactly.
Cause their body experienced what theywere describing.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Cause you don't have to do very much tohave really, I mean, that's coaching
though, isn't it?
You don't have to do very much to havereal deep impact and deep change.
Yeah, and honestly, if you had gone intoproblem solving about this heaviness, then
(34:37):
the person may or may not have gotten whatthey needed, but to have that experience
of holding something really heavy andsetting it down and what did you notice is
required.
The client is a choice then.
I get to carry this heavy thing or I canset it down or maybe I can share the load
with somebody else.
(34:57):
Like who knows what resolution they'llcome up with.
but it's a way of talking about reallyimportant deep work in the context of
something not so scary, reducing thatcognitive load.
Cognitive load, which has been a themethrough our whole conversation, hasn't it?
It really has because it shows upeverywhere.
We need to have another conversation,Lisa.
(35:21):
Absolutely for sure.
Meanwhile, how do people find out aboutyou and about your book?
Well, I'm available at
all bookstores, I understand.
And I'm also available on Amazon.
And I have a Kindle version and apaperback version right now.
(35:42):
But I'm working on an audible version.
But that's going to take me a little bitof time because I've sort of had my hands
full.
And I've been juggling a lot lately.
And so I've got to let something go sothat I can get the audible version
recorded.
Good, good.
So I'll put all of that in the show notesalong with information about your ICF exam
(36:04):
prep.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
So, Lissa DeHart, thank you so much forcoming to The Coaching In and we hope to
see you here again soon.
I love that.
I love that.
Thank you so much for the invitation.
I love coming to The Coaching In.
And thank you everyone for listening.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's editionof The Coaching In.
I'm Claire Pedrick, your host, and todayI'm in conversation with Lyssa de Hart,
who I've known all about.
Well, not all about, I've known a littlebit about Lyssa for a long time, and it's
high time that we had a conversation.
Welcome, Lyssa.
High time.
(00:24):
And thank you so much for having me here,Claire.
I'm really excited because you're somebodyI've known.
a little bit about for a long time aswell.
And so I'm really looking forward togetting to know you.
So listeners, just know this is absolutelyreal and in real time and we haven't had a
pre -conversation.
So Lissa, tell me about you and yourcoaching journey.
(00:47):
Oh, goodness.
It is been sort of a, it's sort of a, it'sa funny thing.
I'm gonna just share a very early story.
I...
got my undergraduate degree in fine arts.
And as a result of that, I was a waitressthrough most of college.
And after college, I was still a waitress.
And I think there was a moment in timethat I was probably about, I don't know,
(01:13):
26 years old.
And I had actually finally gotten anotherjob where I wasn't a waitress, but the
waitress job really led me to think, Iwant to ask a more important question.
Right?
And it was like, you know, how would youlike that cook?
Do you need more dressing?
What kind of tea?
Whatever, right?
Like it was those kinds of questions, butI was just really driven at that point to
(01:37):
want to ask a more important question.
And that was the thing that spurred meinto going into social work, which is
where I got my master's work.
And I started asking more importantquestions as a result of that.
Fast forward, I...
I worked for the state and then for themilitary, for the Air Force here in the
(01:57):
states for about 10 years.
And then I left that and went into privatepractice and I spent about 10 years in
private practice working as a therapistwho specialized in complex trauma, PTSD
and dissociative disorders andrelationship issues because none of those
other things seem to happen without arelationship of some sort.
(02:21):
And so they seemed very interconnected tome.
And then my husband had an opportunity tomove to the Pacific Northwest with his
job.
And we had taken a coach training in about2007, 2008 timeframe.
And I was like, I'm a therapist.
I don't need that coaching thing.
(02:43):
It's, you know, how great is it anyway?
I don't know.
When we get up here and I'm like, it'sreally clear that I'm burned out.
Like I hadn't known that I was burned out,but I knew I was burned out when I was up
here and had a moment to be silent for alittle bit and not have a bunch of
pressure on me.
And I thought, well, I could go dosomething completely different and go back
(03:07):
to school, or maybe instead of throwingthe baby with the bath water, I could
reevaluate this whole coaching thing.
And so in 2014, I went to my
my first ICF event up in the PacificNorthwest.
Back in 2008, I had been a part of the ICFdown in the New Mexico chapter.
(03:29):
So I was familiar with ICF.
I had been a member of ICF, but I went toan event up in the Pacific Northwest and
it was like, you know, I like these peopleand you know, I think there's probably
something here for me to learn and I don'twanna go back to school for another
graduate degree.
So.
Um, let me check out this coaching thing.
(03:50):
And that's sort of the long convolutedstory of how I ended up in coaching.
How interesting.
So a journey from waitress, sorry, thatdid make me think of a song, but we'll
leave our listeners to do with that song.
No, no, no, no, no, no,
(04:15):
Yeah.
And then therapy and then into coaching.
So you've moved quite fast in coaching,haven't you?
Well, I mean, if you consider fast 20 oddyears, given the fact that, I mean, in 95,
I had finished my graduate work and I wasdoing what was effectively solution focus,
(04:36):
goal oriented therapy, which is not sodissimilar from coaching.
And I,
You know, I mean, I had run groups and Ihad been talking to groups of people and
doing that work from 1995.
So, yeah, it was really quick.
I went really quickly.
But I went quickly through the the levelsand credentials from because I got my ACC
(05:04):
in 2014.
Now, I could have gotten my ACC earlier.
I had the hours.
I just didn't see the relevance at thatpoint.
And so thankfully, I kept.
my hours organized.
So I had them.
And so I was able to apply for my ACC.
I actually had almost 1000 hours at thatpoint.
(05:27):
But I didn't feel confident that Iunderstood what coaching was.
And so I really just was like, I'll get myACC, I'll really dive into coach
development, and I will.
see if this is really something I'minterested in.
And as I got into the coach developmentand was taking classes, and so a shout out
(05:49):
to Janet Harvey, because she wasinstrumental in my journey into coaching,
I was able then to go with a bigger visionand a broader understanding of what
coaching was capable of, and also how itwas different than therapy.
(06:10):
And it started to really excite me.
And so at that point, I got my PCC in 2016and then my MCC in 2018.
And it was because I had all this othertraining beforehand, but I'd finally been
able to, I'm not sure what the word is I'mlooking for right this second, but there
(06:30):
was an integration that happened betweenwhat I knew as a therapist and what I
understood now as a coach.
and that intersection between the two ofthem was so enlivening.
And I was like, I love this.
And so that made it really easy to moveinto MCC.
(06:53):
I think the other thing that made itreally easy to move into MCC was I was
teaching at a coaching school.
And so I was really learning aboutcoaching.
I also took the PCC marker training backin 2010.
I don't know, I wanna say 2017, might'vebeen 2018.
I can't remember, I think it was 2017.
(07:14):
And I, no, it was 2018.
Sorry, as I try and figure out my dates.
2018, and I was like, understanding again,the next deeper level of what coaching
could be.
And so that development really led to theMCC being achievable in a short amount of
time.
(07:35):
It wasn't a short amount.
Yeah, the kind of the 20 years prior.
So I love there's something there in whatyou're saying about the formation of you
and making some intentional choices.
But the formation of you felt like it wasthe most important thread there.
(07:57):
You know, I think I remember, you know,this was sort of more about who I was as a
human being, but I remember at 18, I madea decision.
I had grown up in one area of the countryand I had this sense of I didn't really
like the kind of person I was turninginto.
My friends were the friends that I hadgrown up with and were going to high
(08:19):
school with.
And there was something, and they were alllovely people, but I was kind of in a rut
that I felt like was gonna be really hardto get out of.
And I wasn't sure that I liked thetrajectory that that rut was taking me as
far as the kind of person I wanted to be.
And so I remember saying to my dad,
You know, I want to leave the state and goto another school because I think I need
(08:40):
to figure out who I really am going to beas a human being.
And I have this vision of myself, likewhen I'm old, you know, 30, that I'll be
able to like, if I could be that kind ofperson when I get there, that's what I
want to be.
And that's the direction I want to go.
And I think I felt like there was areally,
I think at 18, you have these ideas abouthow hard things are.
(09:02):
And I think at that time, I thought itwould be so hard to become that kind of
person in the environment that I was in.
And because of that mindset, I think I'maccurate.
I think in hindsight, from my perspective,30, 40 -odd years later, I think that's a
good thing.
I, it would have absolutely been possibleto make those, those shifts wherever I
(09:23):
found myself, but I didn't know that atthat time.
And so I did leave and I went to adifferent school in a different state.
And for me, it was that sense of I wantedto become a certain kind of person.
And I think the same thing really appliesin the work that I've done.
I've always sort of had a vision of thissort of value I wanted to bring to people.
(09:45):
And I've strove very hard, strived,stroved very hard to do the work that I
needed to do in order to be able to do thework that I do.
And so I did the work so that I could dothe work if that makes any sense.
Yeah, yeah.
So you now do all sorts of things,including your enormous service to
(10:08):
students who are going for the ICF exam.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
And what an accident that was for me also.
I am very dyslexic.
And it was sort of the thing that as a kidwas really limiting because you're told
all the time, you're such a bright kid.
You just need to try harder.
And I don't know, for all those people outthere with neurodiverse brains, I think
(10:34):
there's all these messages that we getabout.
trying harder, doing it better.
Like you're so smart, why can't you?
Why is this so hard?
You're just not trying hard enough.
And I certainly was given that messagequite a bit as a kid.
I will say my mom spent a tremendousamount of time reading with me.
So I loved, I finally got to the placewhere I loved reading and books, but I
(10:59):
just, I knew what words meant, but like ifyou asked me to spell one, good luck.
And I go in June of 2022 when that test isfinally, they put the sample scenarios up
on the ICF website and I go, I'm gonnacheck out this new exam.
(11:20):
I'm gonna do these scenarios.
I'm an MCC.
I should be able to ace this thing.
And I was like, holy moly cow.
I wouldn't pass this exam.
And I think from the position of,
how my brain works and how this exam wasstructured, I was like, I gotta break this
(11:40):
down.
And so I really started from a place oflike, this is a puzzle, I'm gonna figure
it out.
And there's no hack for this exam.
People ask me all the time, like, is therea hack for this exam?
Yes, the hack is study and reallyintegrate your understanding of the
competencies and code of ethics.
But there's no like easy hack for like howto figure out the right,
(12:03):
question or the right answer best or worstjust based on a verb.
Like I hear this all the time, you know,there's a verb.
And in fact, in August of 2022, when I didmy first training on like August 2nd of
2022, it might've been August 1st, thatwas the thing that came up.
Somebody told me if I just look for theverb, then it would give me the answer for
(12:25):
the best.
And...
And I was like, huh, maybe there'ssomething to that.
But what I've discovered since August of2022 is that there's an answer set that
will be coach asks, asks, asks, asks, oroffers, offers, offers, offers, or
inquires, inquires, inquires, inquires,right?
Like you cannot stop at the verb.
(12:47):
You really have to go past the verb.
And so it might be an indicator, but it'snot the only indicator.
And I think for me, it was thisrecognition that if I were having this
kind of trouble and I had been in coacheducation, I had been trained in the
markers, I was assessing coaching calls, Iwas an MCC, theoretically, I understand
(13:12):
the competencies at some level, one wouldassume based on all of my training at that
point.
And I didn't feel confident that I wouldpass this exam.
I felt like I cannot possibly be the onlyone.
And that was really the impetus.
And then people were like, do you havemore?
Do you have more?
Do you have more?
And that was the sort of the building ofthis, the support system that I started to
(13:36):
create around this, this exam.
Well, we're very grateful.
The neurodivergent community is verygrateful and everyone else, but there are
a lot of coaches aren't there who areneurodivergent.
I would say if, if there's a hundredpercent of people on the planet,
I would say probably it would, I don'tknow, I'll go with the Pareto principle,
(13:59):
right?
80 % of them are neurodiverse in some way.
And it doesn't all show up like my, Imean, and that's the thing.
Like if you have an anxiety that shows uparound exam taking, it doesn't show up
anywhere else in your life.
It's a neurodiversity issue because,
(14:19):
you have a response, your brain is havinga response to a stimulus.
And then there's just the way our wiringis.
And if what happens, like for me, I mean,one of the things I had to learn how to do
was just memorize words.
And so I have a big vocabulary now becauseI spent a lot of time memorizing words,
(14:43):
but I don't like look like.
if you just spelled something for me, Iwouldn't know what the word was
necessarily, unless it was really simpleor something that I see all the time.
But I mean, like I would be terrible at aspelling bee just saying, but I have
memorized so many things.
And I think there's all these workaroundsthat we do in with whatever are the way
(15:06):
that our brain works.
And it was so interesting.
And I hope you don't mind me sharing thisstory, but I had one of this,
participants in my prep program come havea one -on -one with me.
And she started off with such shame, justlike an epic amount of shame.
And she was talking and she was like, Ican't even tell you like what it is that's
(15:30):
going on with me.
It's just so, I'm just so ashamed and I'mreally struggling with this exam.
I'm struggling with your scenarios.
I don't understand these answer options.
They're so nuanced.
I can't figure it out.
And I said,
And as she's talking, she's like, andnobody understands and da da da da da da.
And she just, all of this shame is justlike all over her face.
(15:53):
And I said, may I stop you?
And she said, sure.
And I said, and she was probably my ageand they didn't do assessments in the
seventies for kids.
I don't even know if they did them in theeighties, you know, but they certainly
didn't do them when I was in grade school.
So I didn't know I was dyslexic until Ithought I was when it finally became a
(16:17):
word that was bandied about, but it wasn'tuntil I was like, I don't know, 40 when I
got an actual assessment done so that Icould take an exam that was really, really
hard that I discovered not only am Idyslexic, but I'm also ADHD.
And I didn't even realize that based onall of these little, you know, it's a
(16:37):
pretty extensive assessment you go throughwith a lot of.
testing they do to kind of see how yourmind and memory works, right?
And I pulled mine up because I had foundmine because in case I need to take the
exam, I need to be ready because I do havethe paperwork now.
But I said, this is my educationaldiagnosis of like how my brain works.
(17:00):
And you could just see like this reliefwash through that like, yes.
I have, you know, I believe I'm dyslexic,but I don't have any paperwork.
And I'm like, not a surprise.
But I think there's just such shameinvolved in it also for people in the
neurodiverse community that we should, youknow, try a little harder and then we'd be
(17:24):
able to get it versus how do we need to betaking this exam or any exam for that
matter that will give us the best option.
or opportunity to take this exam well.
And so I talked a lot about that withpeople in my program because I mean, I
(17:45):
would get it from my back because I needto have a standup, sit down desk, forget
about my need for time just so I can readfully what it is I'm reading.
So anyway, I'll stop here, but I thinkit's just a lot of, there's a lot of shame
for people around this.
Yeah, yeah.
We have a lot of people in our communitywho are neurodiverse.
(18:09):
In fact, it's the next book, you and Ineed to have a different conversation
about that at a different time.
Is it fair for the ICF to be assessingcoaches using this exam?
So I have two thoughts on that.
One,
This exam, when you integrate theunderstanding, even as a neurodiverse
(18:32):
person, when you integrate yourunderstanding of the competencies and code
of ethics, this exam demonstrates that youhave that in your bones in a way that I
have never seen another exam do.
I mean, situational judgment means you'remaking judgments in a situation sort of on
(18:53):
the spot.
The thing that...
And I mean, ICF has not asked me and Ihope they don't come after me for saying
this, but at what point do you need, howmany scenarios do you really need?
What is the purpose of this three hoursfor 81 scenarios where a person has
roughly two minutes, 22 seconds to assessbest and worst because we are not talking.
(19:17):
I mean, this is something that likemilitary systems teach is situational
judgment testing where they have like,
person in a bag, the bag comes up, badthings are happening or nothing is
happening.
They have to make an instant life or deathdecision, bag comes down, bag comes up,
new scenario.
But that's not what we're doing here incoaching.
(19:38):
We're not in that kind of life or deathsituation typically.
If we are, please call whatever yourversion of 911 is.
But...
But I think, so I think there's acognitive load that happens with 81
scenarios in three hours that I think is,regardless of whether you have a
neurodiversity issue or not, it's still acognitive load to try and navigate that
(20:05):
much words, that many words, that manychoices.
So like, where did the number 81 comefrom?
Why not 50?
Why not 41?
Right?
And,
And then the timeframe, I mean, I thinkjust from a cognitive perspective, it
doesn't take much to throw a brain intofear, right?
(20:28):
So on that sort of threat safety spectrum,and I talked a lot about that in my work
also, but if your brain perceives athreat, even if it's a completely
existential threat, like I have threehours to take 81 scenarios, which nobody's
gonna die, but.
The existential threat still, your braindoesn't know the difference.
(20:49):
It's still a piece of how your brain isresponding to the constraint.
And so from my perspective, it's like, whynot give everybody four hours?
Why not give some people five hours ifthey need it?
Like it doesn't matter.
If the point is that what you're assessingis that they understand conceptually and
(21:10):
in their bones, the competencies and codeof ethics.
How many do we really need and why do wehave a time limit?
I don't know.
Other than maybe that's something with thetesting facility that they don't want
somebody sitting there for five hours.
I don't know.
Then half, like half the number ofscenarios.
I think the scenarios are good.
(21:32):
I think they're important.
I think being able to assess best andworst is incredibly...
useful.
It's a useful exercise and really learninghow to calibrate yourself to what the
competencies are.
And I have heard from so many people, andI think I had put out on LinkedIn, you
know, I've touched over 5 ,000 people atthis point on with this exam.
(21:55):
And I have consistently heard from people,regardless of whether they liked the exam
or not, that this is coach education.
Yeah.
And so and so I think there's a real valueto the exam.
I just think there are some things thatwould make it more accessible for more
(22:16):
people to do better on it.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
And I know that people find it reallyvaluable because what you've just
described, I just did a little sum on mypiece of paper.
You've described 243 switches.
So scenario, best, worst, scenario, best,worst.
(22:37):
So you're talking about 243 different waysof looking at a thing.
But that's probably a differentconversation that needs to happen in a
different place.
But team, some real wisdom in Lissa'sstuff.
And I'll put a link to all of her thingsin the show notes so that you could follow
that up.
And.
I hope you didn't miss that amazing tipshe dropped in really early on about keep
(22:59):
your hours organized if credentialing ison your horizon.
And even if it's not, because you neverknow when you go, you know what?
Now it is.
Yeah.
How am I going to find all those people?
I remember sitting in a friend's home, acolleague's home office 10 years ago.
(23:19):
And if you're listening, you know exactlywho you are.
They were going for the PCC and we had togo through all their diaries.
It was horrendous.
Yeah, no, it's so much easier.
Even if you don't think you're ever goingto need it to just do it.
If you're ever thinking that you might,because at some point, I mean, and I don't
(23:41):
know what's going to happen with, withcountries and governments and state
requirements for being a coach, but I do.
have a vision in my mind that if myhairdresser needs a license to cut my
hair, that at some point coaches are goingto need to have some sort of state or
(24:03):
governmental credentials that say they cancall themselves a professional executive
or life coach kind of thing.
And at that point, you may never havethought you were ever going to do it.
But if you have those hours set aside andyou have your original and you've kept
your
CEUs and documents and things like that,you can at least go and get a credential,
(24:26):
an ACC credential, even if nothing else.
Yeah.
Yes.
We say that to all of our students.
It doesn't matter if you don't need to doanything else.
Just go be a great coach and document yourhours.
And document your hours.
Forget that you don't need to do anythingelse.
Just that.
(24:46):
Those two very crucial things.
Well, thank you, because I know that lotsof our listeners, you know, not all of our
listeners are in the ICF tribe, but thosewho are will have found that a really
interesting and useful thing.
And I'm and I love the stance from whichyou've you've come to that.
And I think that there'll be somebodygoing immediately now into the show notes
(25:07):
who will press pause on listening to thisand will sign up for one of your classes.
Yeah.
And hopefully I can then support them instarting to really look at how these
scenarios and answer sets are structuredso that they have some ways of thinking
about them, not just being afraid of them.
(25:29):
Yeah.
Thank you.
So let's leave the ICF.
All right.
Tell me about your new book.
Let's do a switch.
Having talked about switches.
Just warning, here comes a switch.
Here comes the switch.
So I had my little notes in it because Idid a presentation in New Orleans, but
Light Up, The Science of Coaching withMetaphors is my new book.
(25:51):
And this really, it's sort of interestingas a therapist, you know, I mean, we all
know what metaphors are.
I wasn't like oblivious to a metaphor backwhen I was doing therapy, but I didn't
really think of them with the importancethat I now see them.
And there is,
So what happened was in probably around2017, I'm starting to notice these
(26:15):
metaphors that just are flowing throughthese conversations.
And I'm also noticing that I'm kind ofhaving fun with them.
And I am very much of a person, as you canprobably tell with the whole, this is a
puzzle.
I kind of did the same thing withmetaphors.
This is a puzzle.
I want to try and understand, like thesethings are showing up so much.
And they seemed to me far more importantthan just a linguistic,
(26:39):
It wasn't just pretty.
And so this led me into really starting toobserve them in my own coaching.
And to that end, I do record a lot of mycoaching sessions.
And even if I'm not using it for mentorcoaching, like, or for when I was going
for different credentials, I would atleast look at them for my own learning and
(27:01):
for a review of what the client offeredand what my question was back to the
client.
And I started noticing how many metaphorswere showing up.
And if I were able to sort of test thehypotheses with one, it might actually
create the container of the coachingconversation in such a way that it made it
(27:24):
easier to discuss something verydifficult, sort of going back to that idea
of cognitive load.
If we're talking about all the thingsyou're not doing well, there's a cognitive
load and threat safety.
there's the existential threat of notbeing good enough, not being perfect, not
doing it right, being a failure, whateverthat is.
(27:44):
And all of those things work againstcreativity and metaphors are fun.
And so I started doing research and atthat point, Lakoff and Johnson's work
really had shown up and...
somehow, you know, you look for stuff onthe internet and then miraculously, all
kinds of stuff pops up that is right alongwhat you're interested in.
(28:07):
And so I started reading about more aboutmetaphors and I started reading research
papers on metaphors and mostly through thelens of linguistics.
And then I saw a study that said thattherapists saw metaphors but didn't really
use them very much.
They didn't think about them in therapy.
And then I was looking at how coaches werebeing trained about metaphors, because I
(28:30):
was working for a school.
And what I was hearing was bring metaphorsto help explain things to clients, right?
Like, so the coach might use the metaphor.
You know, it seems to me that you seem tobe like wrestling with something here, or
you're really, like, it's almost likeyou've got like Atlas, like the weight of
the world on your shoulders, right?
(28:51):
And so the coaches were bringing themetaphors.
And the more I started looking at theseissues around metaphors, and then there
was more and more research, and it's allin my book, so I'm not gonna go into a lot
of detail, but there were these conceptualmetaphors that were really important.
And then there were this idea of targetand source.
(29:11):
And so the source might be something likea full plate, but the target of that would
really be overwhelm.
Right.
And so or vice versa, I'm dyslexic.
So I may have just screwed up my ownexplanation of the theory.
But there's this idea that you've got thisone idea container, a full plate, but what
(29:34):
it's really representing is another thing.
And so the full plate could mean anythingto any different person that you're
talking to.
But it often, and if you're going to testthe hypothesis, it's probably around.
too many choices or overwhelm or I havetoo much on my plate.
And so I was also starting to notice thatthere was a difference between metaphors
(29:56):
that we said out into the world, like lifeis like a bowl of cherries, kind of an
analogy, kind of a simile, but then therewere owned metaphors.
I'm wrestling with this.
My plate is too full.
And so this issue of the owned conceptualmetaphor became something I started to
really look at in my own work.
(30:17):
And as a result of that, and then all thedifferent research that I started doing as
a result of it, it really became clearthat this was an avenue into how brains
conceive and make meaning of theirexperiences.
And so while people may not use metaphorsconsciously, like I'm not thinking when
(30:38):
I'm talking to you, you know, it's like,
I've been trying to figure something out,but my plate has been so full and I just
don't know what to do.
I'm not using the plate metaphorconsciously, but I am using it
intentionally.
My brain has woken up to that particularexperience as a way to communicate this
idea to you.
And if as coaches, we for, not that youshould never offer a metaphor, but if as
(31:04):
coaches, we actually listen to the wordsthat our clients are saying.
Yeah.
Their brain is already there.
You don't have to explain a full plate tothem.
They have a somatic embodied experience ofthe full plate.
And we can resonate with that inpartnership because we too have probably
had a full plate once or twice in our ownlives, right?
(31:25):
We may have eaten the whole plate and beenlike, why did I do that?
So we have these sort of somatic embodiedexperiences that go along with the
metaphors.
So when you start to think about ways thatyou're engaging the brain, you're not just
engaging the head brain, you're engagingthe entire system of the person that
you're working with.
(31:46):
And so to that end, I just, I was like,I've got, I started doing the training on
coaching with the power of metaphors in2018.
And then I was like, I've got to get thisbook written because I then created a
course.
And then it was like,
all the first participants are like, Liz,do not make us read any more research
(32:06):
papers.
Please don't do that to us.
And so that was the impetus really for thebook because I was like all excited about
the research and they were like, well,does it look like that's right.
Just make it easier.
So I made it more digestible and I wrote abook about it.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Isn't it?
And because I often use metaphor andencourage people to do the thing that
(32:29):
they're talking about.
you know, it's all experimentation, isn'tit?
Trying stuff out.
Yes.
You know, and it's so funny, I had aconversation with a client who was trying
to make a big decision and he was like,you know, this is just not comfortable.
I don't know how to make the decision.
And I said, you know, is there any placein your life where you've been able to
(32:54):
make, you know, to change your mind ormake decisions with more ease?
And he said something,
I'm not exactly sure how it all came out,but it was something about, you know,
yeah, like shopping for clothes, you canreturn stuff.
And I'm like, huh, interesting.
And if you were to think of this bigbusiness decision about selling your
company or not selling your company as anoutfit you're trying on, how would you
(33:18):
respond to it differently?
And he's like, yeah, like I could justtake it home.
I could try it on.
I could wear, you know, and so that becamethe entire conversation.
And by the end of it, we're sort oflaughing in the States.
We have this,
And then, and then the outfit that reallyresonates for you after you've played with
(33:51):
it, to your point, you know, just sort ofexperimented and played with it, then
that's the outfit maybe you want to wearfor a while.
I love that.
I had somebody that, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think, Ithink, I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think,
who said, who said the weight of this isso heavy.
So I just said, I said, how about youstand up what's heavy.
And they picked up something really heavy.
And they looked at me on video and theywere like, I can't hold this.
(34:14):
I said, so what are you going to do withit then?
Exactly.
Cause their body experienced what theywere describing.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Cause you don't have to do very much tohave really, I mean, that's coaching
though, isn't it?
You don't have to do very much to havereal deep impact and deep change.
Yeah, and honestly, if you had gone intoproblem solving about this heaviness, then
(34:37):
the person may or may not have gotten whatthey needed, but to have that experience
of holding something really heavy andsetting it down and what did you notice is
required.
The client is a choice then.
I get to carry this heavy thing or I canset it down or maybe I can share the load
with somebody else.
(34:57):
Like who knows what resolution they'llcome up with.
but it's a way of talking about reallyimportant deep work in the context of
something not so scary, reducing thatcognitive load.
Cognitive load, which has been a themethrough our whole conversation, hasn't it?
It really has because it shows upeverywhere.
We need to have another conversation,Lisa.
(35:21):
Absolutely for sure.
Meanwhile, how do people find out aboutyou and about your book?
Well, I'm available at
all bookstores, I understand.
And I'm also available on Amazon.
And I have a Kindle version and apaperback version right now.
(35:42):
But I'm working on an audible version.
But that's going to take me a little bitof time because I've sort of had my hands
full.
And I've been juggling a lot lately.
And so I've got to let something go sothat I can get the audible version
recorded.
Good, good.
So I'll put all of that in the show notesalong with information about your ICF exam
(36:04):
prep.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
So, Lissa DeHart, thank you so much forcoming to The Coaching In and we hope to
see you here again soon.
I love that.
I love that.
Thank you so much for the invitation.
I love coming to The Coaching In.
And thank you everyone for listening.
Bye bye.
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