Why Apologetics is Essential in Discipleship and Evangelism | Matthew Mittelberg

In this episode, Mike sits down with Matthew Mittelberg, an apologist currently with Apologetics, Inc. Matthew brings a unique perspective to the conversation, having formerly worked at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and grown up as the son of noted author and apologist Mark Mittelberg. With close family ties to Lee Strobel, whom he affectionately refers to as "Uncle Lee," Matthew's upbringing was deeply rooted in a community that not only believed in the truths of Christianity but also emphasized the importance of conveying these truths through both words and actions. The discussion centers on the crucial role of an embodied faith in effectively reaching and impacting the next generation.

Mike and Matthew explore how living out one's faith authentically can inspire and engage young people in a way arguments alone cannot. However, they also delve into how apologetics, the discipline of defending Christianity through systematic argumentation and discourse, can be a vital tool in this process. By providing clear, rational reasons for faith and demonstrating its relevance in everyday life, Matthew argues that apologetics can equip individuals to communicate their beliefs more effectively and foster a more profound spiritual engagement among youth. This episode offers practical insights and strategies for anyone looking to use apologetics to nurture and sustain faith in a skeptical and often indifferent world.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Jesus is not against giving reasons, even, you know, he tells the disciples
of John, go and tell John what you have seen and heard, the blind see,
the deaf hear, the lame walk, and blessed is he who does not reject.
So he gives evidence as well.
Well, hello, everyone. Today I get to talk to my friend, Matthew Middleburg.

(00:23):
Matthew is a colleague of mine, an apologist, and the son of Mark Middleburg,
who's written a number of really good books. Mark's an apologist himself.
The Questions Christians Hope No One Will Ask. I think that was the first book I read by Mark.
And just a good apologist himself.
And Matthew's quite accomplished in following along in his footsteps.

(00:45):
And so we talk a bit about that. What's it like growing up as an AK, an apologist kid?
We know what PKs are, and I've got a couple of my own.
I spent 11 years pastoring. And so, curious about the environment,
what it's like growing up in the home of an apologist.
Part of the unique situation there, too, is the Middleburgs are good friends
with Lee Strobel, colleagues.

(01:06):
And, of course, Lee has written a number of books. The Case for Christ,
Lee was an atheist before investigating the claims of Christianity.
His intent was to disprove it all, but was compelled to believe that God is real.
Jesus is his son, and by faith in him, you can have your sins forgiven.
Given. So we talk what it's like growing up in that environment.
And then we talk about what's the role of apologetics. Is it something that

(01:28):
is only for the select few?
Is it something all should be able to use?
And what's the way forward in evangelism regarding apologetics?
You're into that kind of stuff. You're going to enjoy this conversation.
Well, Matthew, I thought it would be good for us to talk about just apologetics,
what it is, what it's value and where to use it and how to use it.

(01:50):
But before we get into that, tell me a little bit more about your background,
your childhood even, growing up as an AK.
Yes, an AK. Yes.
There should be some numbers after that and then it's very- Weaponized. Yes. An apologist kid.

(02:11):
My kids pastored for 11 years.
The whole PK. And I don't know what I think about all this, but anyhow,
but so you grew up, you know, your dad, Matthew or Mark Middleburg,
an accomplished apologist and evangelist.
Your family also is close with Lee Strobel. If I'm right, you call him Uncle Lee.
Yep. That's right. What that's, that's somewhat of a, a unique childhood.

(02:33):
I would, I would guess, just tell me a bit about that.
Yeah. Before I was five years old, you know, I had the Sima Theologica memorized
and could read it in Latin. and no, let's hear it.
Come on, bring it out right now. No, I do definitely did not.
But yeah, no, I had a really great upbringing. I would say a really,
really blessed upbringing to be able to be surrounded by Christians who knew

(02:57):
what they believed and knew why they believed it.
And, and we're, we're ready to explain that to me.
So I grew up going to conferences with my dad, hearing him speak,
hearing Uncle Lee speak, and just surrounded by this atmosphere of confidence
in Christianity and understanding the reasons for why we believe what we do as Christians.

(03:18):
So I soaked a lot of that in, I would say, indirectly or passively.
But for me, it was sort of like, oh yeah, that's my dad's thing.
That's what he does. That's just,
That's just his job, I guess. But it wasn't something that I was personally interested in.
Even though I was a Christian, I gave my life to Christ when I was four years

(03:39):
old. And I really believe that that was the beginning of my relationship with God.
But for me, it was only once I was in high school and I went to Summit Ministries
as a student and I was surrounded by people my age that were asking big questions.
And I started to have conversations with them and realize, oh,

(04:00):
wait, actually, I remember some of the things my dad has said,
and I actually have answers to some of these questions.
And that was sort of an interesting moment to realize like, oh,
wait a second, like this, this is something that I need to care about. And I do care about this.
Because I care about my friends, I want them to know the truth,
I want them to understand these things.
And from then on out, it sort of lit lit the fire of the love of apologetics

(04:22):
in me. And now I'm carrying on the family business.
So you never had like a moment of profound doubt or anything like that?
I didn't from a intellectual doubt standpoint.
I would certainly say I had a moment in my life where things seemed really dark.
I had a health crisis when I was 17.

(04:43):
I had a series of lung collapses where my lung collapsed over and over and over again.
And I was in and out of the hospital for several months. moments and it was
sort of a realization of like, do I actually trust the Lord with my life?
Am I really going to turn to him in this moment? And I did, I turned to the
Psalms. I was reading them daily. I was praying.

(05:04):
I was trusting that, you know what, Lord, if you, you're going to save me one
way or another, whether it's through medical means or miraculous means or through
the kingdom and coming, coming to be with you, you're going to save me one way
or another. And so I'm going to trust you.
So that was definitely a moment of really putting my faith in the Lord in a

(05:25):
new and fresh way and maturing in my faith, I would say.
And I'm actually thankful now that my lung collapsed because that gave me the
kick in the pants that I needed to really get serious about my faith.
When was that again? How old were you? I think I was 16. I think I said 17 earlier.
I think I was 16 years old. Yeah. Okay.

(05:46):
And so what was your, I mean, what was your home like? I mean,
you guys went to church. What was your church experience like?
You know, were you, you know, the, the nightly prayer, you know,
worship, family worship meetings or gatherings and whatnot?
Or was it, did it feel normal to you? Did it feel different?
Did, did you think that other people looked at your family different?

(06:09):
What was, I mean, how would you describe that? that.
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to categorize. You know, I think.
I don't know how other people viewed us. To me, it was just normal.
It was just how I grew up. But I was, so I was homeschooled.
So both me and my sister were homeschooled all the way through.
And so we spent a lot of time with my mom who was teaching us.
And then my dad, which I love, I loved this.

(06:31):
My dad, you know, traveled a lot and spoke a lot and did a lot of these things,
but he worked from home for most of my childhood, which meant a lot to me because
when he was gone, it was like, Oh dad, like, you know, we'd call him and,
you know, talk to him on the phone and stuff.
But then when he came back, he was home, he was with us and he was accessible to us.
And that meant a lot because I think if he, if he was traveling and at the office

(06:55):
and we just never saw him, I think that would be, that would be pretty hard.
So the fact that he was home with us at home, working at home,
that made a big difference.
And then, yeah, just spending time with my mom was great. And my sister and
we would go to church, we would go to midweek service, We would go to various Bible studies.
And yeah, I would say I had a very blessed upbringing.

(07:20):
Maybe one more. Sorry to keep just... Yeah. I'm interested.
Of course, I have kids myself. I mean, I've followed somewhat of a path similar
to your dad's differently.
But I've got kids, of course, now.
And I'm always curious what my kids think.
And we talk a lot about this. And I remember a funny story early on when I was

(07:41):
going to speak somewhere and the way I had framed, like said,
it was, I'm going to the mountains in, where was it? Tennessee or not.
Tennessee doesn't have any mountains, but relatively, you know, low mountains.
But the, the, the place I was going to had mountains. So I can't remember where
it was, but it seems like it was Tennessee.
And I asked, I make some comment basically about going to a church in the mountains.

(08:02):
And my daughter, the way she tells this story back is what was in her mind was
her dad was was going to a place where he was going to climb up a mountain to
tell people about Jesus.
And I was perfectly happy and content to let that thought stay in her head.
That's exactly who your dad is. So maybe this is kind of the question I want to ask.

(08:28):
So your dad, part of what he does as an evangelist and as an apologist is to
clearly articulate the gospel, the Christian worldview, and provide compelling
reasons to believe that it is true.
So I'm sure you had conversations like that, or maybe not, I don't know.
But what, maybe ask this from your mom and your dad, did you also see it lift out?

(08:49):
And what, is it fair to say, made more of an impact on you?
Hearing the arguments, hearing the truth being proclaimed from them,
or seeing how they lived, how would you describe or even rank,
Ray, what was more powerful in your life?
Yeah, I would say as a kid, there was no comparison.

(09:11):
It was all about what I saw and the way that they behaved, the way that they lived their lives.
And thankfully, I had a great example. And that's why I never,
I would say, had that kind of crisis of faith of moments where it was like,
I just don't doubt, you know, I doubt that this is true. It was kind of like, this is so great.
Why would I ever depart from this? You know, my mom and my dad,

(09:33):
they love each other. They love us. They treat us well.
We're pursuing truth together. We're pursuing life together.
It just, the thought never really entered my mind of like, why would I rebel against this?
So, you know, living in a family where, you know, my parents were accessible,
they listened, they were attentive,

(09:55):
they cared, they prayed with me, that was far more important than the intellectual case at that age.
Now that that sometimes changes, I think, as we get older, as we begin to ask
more questions, as we are confronted with, you know, I think if I was if I was
in a public school, I think a lot of those intellectual questions would have come a lot sooner.

(10:16):
And I would have had a lot more, you know, friends that weren't Christians that
were living in different kinds of lifestyles.
And that that would have pushed me to ask some of those questions a lot earlier.
So I think, and I think, so I think, yeah, it depends on the situation.
It depends on the kid, but, but the, the, the what's caught versus what's taught thing is real.

(10:37):
I think, you know, you, you catch a lot more than what you're taught. Yeah.
Well, I grew up in a, a really good home.
I mean, I have such great memories of my childhood and my mom and dad,
brother and sister, very loving home, present parents.
I always knew that I was loved and I mattered to them.

(11:01):
The world didn't revolve around me, though. I didn't live in a home where my
parents were my best friends or spoiled in any sense.
But there's such a gift there because they we went
to church all the time we had a house where we
could ask any question and i remember you know often having
fun spirited debates like the dinner table around

(11:23):
anything from abortion to the origin of evil and original sin and just never
forget this back and forth me and my brother got into and him just not letting
go and me not letting go and just being a you know that environment where nothing's
out off off limits nothing's out of balance. You got a question, ask it and pursue it.
But certainly what made more of an impact to me was the lives, living it out.

(11:48):
For our family, it was at least obvious to me that they actually believed Christianity
was true and believed it such that their lives, it meant something in their lives.
The calendar meant something. Me and my brother were both very good at baseball
and shoot, you think we were going to play a game on a Sunday?

(12:10):
Hardly ever, not legalistically never, but hardly ever.
And just little things like that were just, it was little or big,
I don't know whatever that is, but I just saw that.
I saw that my parents believe this, it affects how they live and in a very positive way.

(12:30):
And one of the encouraging pieces of that, because I get asked all the time.
When and how should you start teaching apologetics to your kids?
And, you know, part of the answer is from the beginning, because kids don't wait.
They, as soon as they can talk, they're asking questions, right?
They're, they're asked and they don't, the way kids ask questions,

(12:51):
they're always really hard.
It's like, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought about that thing that way in forever.
How do I answer that question?
And I'll never forget one day, my, my, my daughter comes into the kitchen,
she was maybe five years old at this time.
And she says, Hey dad, what's for, what's for breakfast.
And I just make a stupid dad remark. Oh, we're not, we don't,

(13:14):
we've decided not to have breakfast anymore.
In fact, we're only going to have, you know, two meals a day kind of thing.
And just, you know, even at five, she does this teenage eye roll,
like, come on dad, what's for breakfast.
And, and so I'm like, all right, parent of the year time, I'm going to to turn
this into a teaching moment, right?
And I'm going to talk about how blessed we are to live in a place of the world where we can eat.

(13:39):
That's never a question, what's for breakfast? It's never like,
well, it's a question, but it's never like, are we eating today?
It's what is for. And they look in the refrigerator and our kids will say there's nothing to eat.
And of course they have to move past five things to eat in order to, as they say that.
So I talk about how blessed we are in a sense to live at a place where that's
our reality. And so here she is, five years old.

(14:01):
She goes, well, why would God let other people go hungry?
You ready for the problem of evil conversation with a five-year-old?
So I won't keep going on this story.
Maybe we can go back to it later. But we do have a really good conversation
there that was built upon just a context where Christianity is taught and lived out regularly.

(14:27):
So she had some of the pieces already in place.
Well, one, to ask a question like that, but then to process an answer to that.
So when should you start apologetics? You got to be ready for it from the get go.
But really my point here more than anything else is that a well-lived life by
followers of Jesus Christ is the most important thing.

(14:49):
If for those that are concerned with, you know, doing apologetics in your home,
if you do not have that, your answers are going to be hardly worth anything.
And so that was my experience. It sounds like it was, sounds like it was yours. Yeah.
I think it's a both and, right? Because if you're living a good life and you're
living a godly life and you just don't have the answers to any of the questions

(15:12):
that your kids are asking.
Let's say you said to your daughter there, well, I don't know, honey.
And then the next time she asks a question, I don't know, honey. Just have faith.
Christians don't need answers. Yeah, yeah, just have more faith,
you know, that builds a pattern of, oh, mom and dad don't actually know why
they believe this thing. And they don't have answers.

(15:32):
And that's, that's a dangerous pathway for a kid to walk in.
So I think, yeah, it's a, it's an absolute both and you need both because a
lot of people and a lot of people take this approach with evangelism, too.
I've heard it so many times, where, you know, it's.
St. Francis of Assisi said, you preach the gospel at all times,
use words when necessary.

(15:53):
Well, St. Francis of Assisi.
That's exactly what Assisi would say. Yeah, yeah. Assisi would say that.
Assisi did not say that because he literally preached the gospel to the birds.
So he was all about preaching the gospel and about using words because they're
necessary. We can't actually lead someone to Christ without actually opening

(16:16):
our mouths and talking about Jesus.
And a lot of Christians will take that misquote or mistributed quote,
and they'll use that as an excuse to just never share the gospel.
They use it as an excuse to just try to be a nice person, whatever that means,
and never talk about their faith.
So I think it's a both end. so i
saw this stupid meme i know you love memes and gifs

(16:39):
or gifs which side of that do you fall on what do you call them graphical
image yeah that's right it's a it's not a giraffical
image right we can remain we can remain friends moving forward and it was the
the bat scarecrow from the christopher nolan batman it was his it was it was
it was a meme with him and he was sitting beside somebody and the person said, you know, that quote,

(17:04):
preach the gospel and use words when necessary.
And then, you know, the response was, okay, great. Now tell me that again,
without using any words.
So it's just, obviously that's not the literal, you know, the spirit of this.
I get it. Right. Cause that's what we're talking about.
A lived life is so important and it speaks loudly.

(17:24):
But it can't literally mean the absence of speaking the truth clearly and boldly
and frequently and in settings that we probably feel uncomfortable and don't
want to do it. That's certainly not what it means.
So, all right. So, hey, we've already started talking about apologetics,
but before we get too far away, let's maybe clearly define what it is,

(17:47):
move into talking about why we think it's valuable,
and we've already started talking We're talking about where to use it and how
to use it, but maybe get into that a little bit more.
So your understanding of budgets, and first, I wanted to ask this earlier.
What was your undergrad? Where did you go for that and what did you study there?
Yeah, so I went to GCU, Grand Canyon University, and I got my undergrad in entrepreneurial

(18:08):
business and a minor in Christian studies.
Okay. And then at PVA, you've got the, what's the degree there at Palm Beach
Atlantic? Master's in philosophy of religion.
Okay. So what, how would you describe, define apologetics? What, what is it?
Yeah. So I would say apologetics, of course we get it from first Peter 3 15
is every apologist's favorite verse,

(18:30):
but in your hearts set apart, Christ says, Lord, always being ready to give
an answer to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that is within
you yet do this with with gentleness and respect.
So you right there, you have both sides of apologetics. You have to give a defense or give an answer.
So this is answering difficult objections that people give against Christianity.

(18:52):
So why would a good God allow suffering and evil can suffer science and faith
coexist, those kinds of things.
And then a reason, a reason for the hope that you have.
So why do you have hope? Why, why do you have this hope? So evidence reasons
for why we believe what we do as Christians.
So it's answering difficult objections and providing a reason for why we believe

(19:12):
what we do as Christians.
What big picture here, or before we get too into the weeds, what's the role
of apologetics in the believer's life? Is this something niche?
Is this something for only academics.
Should this be a part of every believer's life, just a select few?
What's your thoughts there? Yeah, I have a video that's going to be coming out on my YouTube channel.

(19:33):
Hey, no plug in here, man. No plug in. What are you doing? I've got to plug it. I got to plug it.
Yeah. Subscribe to my channel. Unsubscribe from Mike's podcasts.
You know, it's a limited resource. So yeah, no.
So I think it's for every Christian because I think it's actually the forgotten
spiritual spiritual discipline, which is, is a big claim I know,

(19:54):
but you know, as we, as we think about spiritual disciplines,
these are activities that put us in contact with the Lord and allow the Lord
to shape us into his image.
And I think apologetics is one that's missing from a lot of Christians lives
because they, they read the Bible and it tells them what to believe.
They go to church and they hear what to believe.
They go to their Bible studies and they talk about what to believe and they

(20:15):
never talk about why they believe it.
And they don't have any reason. They don't understand why they believe it.
And if your confidence is built on only authority figures, that's a slim confidence.
That's a slim foundation to build upon.
So what apologetics can do is it can help you to grow in your faith by deepening your confidence.

(20:38):
It can help you by deepening your ability to share with others.
And when you're sharing with others, that's often when your Your faith feels
most real to you because the Holy Spirit is working through you.
You're being reminded of the truth of the gospel as you explain it to somebody else.
And so there's just a whole variety of ways that I think apologetics can be
useful to the Christian.

(20:58):
And I think it's a command for all Christians, right? I think that's ultimately
it's being obedient to the command in 1 Peter 3.15 to always be ready to give
an answer to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that's within you.
So there's a whole host of reasons that I think I think it's not just for the
the the nerds and the geeks and the people that care about it.
It's it's for everybody.

(21:20):
Yeah, I don't I don't know that I understand real well why.
There's pushback. I mean, maybe I do in some sense, but you know,
and it's very basic at the very base level, what apologetics is,
is having a good reason for what you believe,
which I just can't imagine meeting somebody and asking them,
should you have a good reason to believe something?

(21:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you answer no to that question?
I mean, even if the answer is yes, I have a good reason to believe.
And that's because I've encountered the very presence of this God,
His Spirit lives within me and I've experienced it in a very meaningful,
well, that's a reason and it is a good reason.
I think just an existential argument for the existence of God is fine.

(22:06):
The Bible does talk about the role of the Holy Spirit and one of the roles that
it does is it assures us, it basically tells us that we belong to God.
And so it's a very subjective experiential reason, right?
It's I know because I know and I've experienced.
Now, that has obvious value, and it is a reason, and it is a good reason.
But when someone then asks you, okay, I was talking to a Mormon friend of mine,

(22:32):
and he said the exact same thing. How do I know which one of you is right?
And then the Christian has nothing more to say, well, I don't know,
just believe and have faith. And the guy says, well, that's what the Mormon said to me.
What, how do I, where do I, what do I, how do I, y'all aren't the same religion engineer.
How do I know? I have some honest questions. Why should I believe your claim

(22:52):
that Jesus claimed that he had the ability to forgive sins? Why should I believe that?
And so just this simple question, should Christians have a good answer to that question?
Well, I don't know how you say no to that. Now, so why do you think there is
pushback to apologetics.

(23:14):
What are some of the negative experiences that people have had or what have
you heard? Have you experienced the pushback, the questions?
What do you think that comes from? Why do you think that is?
Yeah, I've definitely heard people tell me, you know, after my talk,
when I speak at a university or at a training for a ministry or something like
that, they come up to me and they say, wow, I didn't know apologetics could be like that.

(23:38):
What they thought apologetics was is just a debate tactic, an arguing method.
It's just Christian versus atheist on a debate stage, going at it,
debating against each other.
And they've reduced apologetics just to that in their minds.
They don't understand that it actually encompasses philosophy and science and

(24:00):
history and psychology and all of these different fields. And it doesn't have to be a...
I'm going to defeat you. I'm going to destroy you kind of mentality, debate mentality.
It can actually be a, Hey, have you thought about this? Can,
can we explore this issue together?
You know, let's think about this together. What do you think about this?

(24:22):
Help me, help me understand your worldview, you know, and it can be a conversation,
a dialogue, a true respectful dialogue and apologetics is, is a way of,
of going about that at its best.
Right so within you know philosophy which
is a part of apologetic you you make arguments which
is basically a reasoned conclusion here's my conclusion but here's how i got

(24:47):
there here are my reasons my supporting premises or whatnot now so arguing is
certainly a part of apologetics but not like shouting,
not arguing in the, I'm fighting with you, verbal fist fight kind of way.
And I think arguing is good. I think it's actually loving.

(25:09):
And it's a blessing that we get to do that in our country. Now that is something that is...
I fear our ability to argue with people that don't agree with us is going away.
And maybe we can get into that a little bit longer. But it seems,
though, people don't desire tools to argue well anymore.
They just desire power to shut up their opponents.

(25:32):
And I think this is true of Christians, too. Not just those that don't believe in God.
We're looking for ways to silence our opponents or who we maybe even real-life enemies,
enemies rather than desiring means to be able to argue well for our beliefs
in love and in a place in a respectful kind of way.

(25:53):
So what would you say, though, to the person that maybe even hears that and
says, okay, but arguing, you can't argue someone into heaven.
So maybe if you're talking about political matters,
maybe I hear you there, and maybe there's a place for Christians to develop
skills of argumentation for
political advocacy and whatnot, but you can't argue someone into heaven.

(26:17):
And so you just have to have faith and preach the gospel.
What would your response be to that person?
I encountered this in college.
I had a apologetics club where I, which I led for three years in college and was amazing.
I had a great time. We had 50, 60 students showing up every week to participate

(26:38):
and ask questions and be a part of the conversation.
But there was a very hardcore Calvinist group on campus of students that would
come and they would say, you don't believe you can actually reason with somebody.
You don't believe you can actually persuade somebody. And I'm like,
are you trying to change my mind about this?
And they had this kind of perspective.

(26:59):
Yeah, you can't argue somebody into the kingdom. And I can't remember who,
who said this, but you know, no one comes to faith without an argument.
No one comes to faith without a reason, essentially, and a reason conclusion
of, hey, maybe it's I I've encountered the Holy Spirit.
This must be the truth. You know, I believe. And that's that's their argument.

(27:20):
But I've also met tons and tons of people who looked at the fine tuning of the
universe and said, there must be a God.
Let me find out who he is. Oh, the Bible makes sense of everything.
It's God. It's Jesus. I'm going to believe in Christianity.
And so, I mean, and I've also, you know, I've given many presentations on the

(27:40):
historical evidence for the resurrection and people have come to faith in Jesus through that.
So I want to talk to, you know, the people that say that arguments don't work
and say like they empirically denied like they do, you know,
the, the history of apologetics shows that they do. you.
And, you know, then people want to say, oh, well, you know, how,

(28:00):
how long do they believe, you know, how, you know, and it's like,
well, okay, there's, there's believers drift in every kind of encounter with God, right?
No, no, there's no perfect method by which we can say this person,
I know for certain they're absolutely saved.
Their faith was real and all of that. There's just, there's,
there's no way of doing that, but some people need reasons if they're going to come to, to Christ.

(28:25):
And even, you know, doubting Thomas, right? Doubting Thomas says,
I won't believe unless I get this and this and this. And Jesus says, all right, bet.
And he gives him this, this, and this, and he gives them exactly what he needs to believe.
So Jesus is not against giving reasons.
Even, you know, he, he tells the disciples of John, go and tell John what you

(28:46):
have seen and heard the, the blind see the deaf, hear the lame walk and blessed
is he who does not reject me. So he, he gives evidence as well.
One of the things I love about Christianity is the come and see,
ask your questions, here's an answer nature of Christianity.
It's the exact opposite of the Wizard of Oz, don't look behind the curtain.

(29:06):
Yeah, exactly. I just, I love that honesty and openness.
And I just don't understand how somebody who reads the Bible can come to the
position that you shouldn't give people answers, that it's almost wrong to give people answers.
And this misunderstanding of the nature of faith such that it's just blind trust.

(29:30):
You know, don't, just believe, don't worry about an answer to your question,
just believe. Like, I don't know how you read the gospels and the example of
Jesus and come to that conclusion, like what you had pointed out with Thomas.
The response wasn't, how dare you?
To John the Baptist, it wasn't, I'm glad you're in prison. Why don't you just

(29:53):
stay there since you weak faiths.
Don't you know who I am kind of thing? No, it's here are the reasons.
Yeah. And even look at the.
Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, just the Bereans.
Oh, I thought you were going to say no, go ahead back to me and I was going
to get to go. Ah, no, no, no. I'm going. I'm going now.
The Bereans, right? They are counted as more noble because they didn't just

(30:17):
take what Paul said and believe it.
They tested it against the scriptures. They wanted to say, wait a second,
let's examine this. Let's investigate this.
And they're praised in scripture for actually reasoning through what Paul said.
And by the way, what did Paul do? Every time he entered a city,
what's the first thing he does?
He goes to the synagogues and he reasons persuasively. From the scriptures. From the scriptures.

(30:42):
That's the model that Paul gives us. Is it Acts 17 or is it Acts 18,
where he starts in the Jewish synagogues, but it ends with him being in Athens?
In 17. And you see there, 17.
And you see that phrase that, as was his custom, right?
So he would go to the synagogues, even though Paul is often called the Gentile missionary.
He always went to synagogues because of his deep love for his Jewish brothers and sisters.

(31:06):
And it's just interesting, the language there in Acts 17. you find the word
reasoned, you find the word explaining, and you find the word proving.
And Paul's specific agenda there, what he was trying to accomplish was to help
the Jews see that a part of God's plan was that the Messiah would suffer,
which was an intellectual stumbling block for the Jewish people.

(31:30):
They had the concept of a conquering king that would deliver them namely from
a political captivity and usher in a kingdom of prosperity in a political sense
more than anything else.
And so the notion of a Messiah that would suffer and die and be humiliated publicly.

(31:50):
Well, I can't overcome that.
And not just intellectually, but there's probably an emotional and a volitional
sense, like I don't want that to be my Messiah.
So it's not just purely intellectual. And for that matter, nobody's purely rational.
We're an amalgamation of intellect and conscience and imagination and things like that.
But so Paul had a very clear goal of, I must show them, I must give them reasons

(32:17):
and explain to them from scripture, proving to them that this has been God's plan all along,
that everything that you read in the Old Testament is pointing to Jesus and a suffering Messiah.
And so, again, I take that as an act of love.
And I think it's clear as you read, you know, in Romans and you read Paul's

(32:38):
other writings, how deeply burdened he was for his people. He deeply loved them.
And the love of Paul was manifest in that he would be willing to show them and
give them good reasons to help them overcome their stumbling block and put their
faith in Jesus Christ so that the fulfillment of their heart's deepest desires might be realized.

(33:00):
But notice the, it's so interesting. He, you know, he says later or earlier,
I'm not sure the chronology, but he says, you know, to the Jews,
I become like a Jew to the Greeks. I become like a Greek that I might win some.
And when he's in Acts, you know, in Acts 17, he goes, when he goes to the Jews,
he uses the scriptures, right? Because that's the common ground.

(33:20):
He can build on the common ground of scripture because they both believe in it.
They both share it. But then when he goes to the Greeks, he doesn't use scripture.
He doesn't start there because they don't hold to scripture.
There's no common ground there for him to build upon.
He goes to Greek philosophers and he uses philosophy to show that there must
be a God, there must be a creator of all things, there must be an uncaused first

(33:43):
cause. and his name is, is Yahweh.
And his son came to die for us on the cross.
And he rose from the dead and he, he persuades, it says he persuades some of
them that some of them come to faith.
And some people, you know, go, Oh, he only won some of them,
not, not all of them. And I'm like, when was the last time you preached a sermon?
And some people came to the Lord, that's not easy to do. Right.

(34:06):
And so it seems like he was pretty effective in his, his ministry there.
And he was, I think it's because he was building on that common ground.
If he had gone in there and he said, the Jewish scriptures declare that Yahweh
is God, they would have gone, yeah, so what? We don't believe in the Jewish scriptures.
So we need to find out what is the common ground with the person that we're

(34:27):
talking to. How can we build on that common ground and share our faith with them?
I think Acts 17 is an excellent chapter for developing just a plan of an evangelistic strategy.
Yeah. You see Paul's strategy with the religious Jews who had common ground
in the Old Testament, and Paul knew what their stumbling block was,

(34:52):
and so he went after it.
When he's in Athens, they do not have a common ground of scripture,
so he uses something else.
He does use their religious practices, right? Because he says,
I see you have, he goes into the courtyard and there's all these idols and these statues.
One that was named to an unknown God and Paul just seizes that opportunity.

(35:13):
That who you don't know, I'm going to tell you about today. But then,
right, he doesn't open up to Genesis or something like that.
He builds an argument utilizing philosophers and their own poets to make a compelling
case to believe that there is a God who made all things and to whom we are accountable.

(35:35):
It's just, it's just, it's brilliant. So to me, it just seems that the example
set by, of course, Paul shows how evangelistic evangelism involves something like apologetics.
The practice of Jesus in the example he set demonstrates the same thing to me.
And one of the, you know, we talked about the way he treated John the Baptist.

(35:57):
We talked about how he treated Thomas.
And one of the stories that really stands out in my mind is in the beginning
of Mark's gospel, where there's the paralytic man that, you know,
he has these four friends.
They rip open the roof where there was this gathering and they drop him down
into the room because they couldn't get in another way with the hope that Jesus

(36:21):
would be able to heal him.
And, you know, I'm sure you remember this story, but, you know,
when Jesus, it's interesting in this story, because it says when Jesus saw the faith of his friends.
Which is so interesting, I don't mean for us to dive into that,
but I'm so curious by that include that, that statement there.
He looked at the paralyzed man and said, your sins are forgiven,

(36:45):
which is of course not why they brought him. Right. And, and, and, and, and
The religious crowd, Jesus perceives that they're murmuring,
you know, in their hearts and maybe even quite literally out loud to someone else.
Who does this, who does this guy think he is to say your sins are forgiven?
And that's of course a big problem because who alone but God can forgive sins?

(37:07):
I mean, I can forgive you, Matthew, if you offend me.
But if sin, when you're looking at someone and you're not talking about a crime
they committed against you, you're talking about their sins in general.
How can you, unless you're the one being offended by these, unless these are
the crimes committed against you, how can you forgive this?
So when Jesus says your sins are forgiven, right, he's making a claim to divinity

(37:28):
there. He's saying, I am God.
So Jesus responds to that crowd and says, why are you upset about this?
What's easier to say your sins are forgiven or pick up your mat and go home? home.
And I mean, on one hand, it's easier to say your sins are forgiven in that room,

(37:51):
because that room is filled with people that will now want to kill you for your claim to be God.
So it's not easy in that sense to make that claim. But of course,
in the way that they were asking it and the reader and the hearer,
this would understand, which is easier to say your sins are forgiven or pick up your mat and go home.
It's way easier to say your sins are forgiven, because how are you ever going to prove that?
If you say, pick up your mat and go home, you better be able to heal that,

(38:14):
man. You're going to look like a fool and it's over.
It's over. You know, Jesus says your sins are forgiven and walks away,
his ministry continues, right? Or his work continues.
He says, pick up your mat and go home. And he lays there. Well,
okay, here's another fraud, right? This movement's over and done.
So the point here, right, is Jesus understood how easy it is to make a claim.

(38:37):
Like, I'll forgive you of your sins.
But why should anybody believe him that he actually has the ability to forgive sins?
Why should somebody trust Jesus's claim that he has the ability to forgive sins?
Well, he gave them a reason right there. And that's what Mark records.
Jesus says, but so that you might know that the son of man has authority on

(38:58):
earth to forgive sins, I say to you, pick up your mat and go home.
And he picked up his mat and went home. So there's a reason now that Jesus gave
the people so that they can trust him with a ridiculously huge claim.
A claim regarding his divinity, but within that, of course, the claim that I
can forgive you of your sins. Why should I believe you, Jesus?

(39:20):
Why should I believe you? Well, here's one reason. Pick up your mat and go home.
Look, I have this authority. I'm not messing around.
So good. And elsewhere, he says, you know, if you don't believe what I'm saying,
look at the miracles that I'm doing and believe on that basis.
So he explicitly points to miracles as evidence for why you should believe him.
And, you know, it's fascinating when we look at But the majority of historians

(39:44):
and what they believe about Jesus, one of the facts that isn't talked about,
I think, nearly enough about the historical Jesus is that there's large agreements
among amongst atheist historians, agnostic historians.
Christian historians, that he was viewed as a miracle worker by the people of the day.
And partially the reason we know this is because look at the enemies of Jesus.
They didn't they didn't say, oh, he's not a miracle worker. He doesn't do these things.

(40:08):
They said, well, he we got him on this technicality. he did it on the wrong
day or he, he used the wrong words or, you know, he made the wrong claim,
but they couldn't deny the fact that he was literally raising people from the dead.
He was, you know, raising the paralytic to be able to walk. He was doing all
of these things and that should give us confidence today.
See, I mean, here's, here, here we are, we're doing some apologetics for you.

(40:29):
Here's why you should know that Jesus is Lord is, you know, he's, he's a miracle worker.
He's done these things and that should give us more confidence that
he is who he says he he is so it it just seems to me that especially before
speaking or talking to christians here that the example of to be a follower
of jesus involves giving people reasons to believe in the claim that jesus is

(40:54):
god and he will forgive you of sins,
It's what Jesus did. It's what his followers did. And it's what followers of
Jesus throughout the centuries have done.
Augustine, Aquinas, even Calvin, you know, performers a lot of times don't view
Calvin as an apologist, but in many ways he, you know, he was.
Was, so we see the practice of it throughout history.

(41:17):
We also see the effect of it throughout history, even going back to someone
like we talked about earlier, Uncle Lee Strobel, right, who was not a follower of Jesus,
investigated the claims with the intent to definitively just kind of show they're
false, and in the process was overwhelmed with the evidence and gave his life to Jesus.

(41:37):
So not only do we see the practice of apologetics in the life of believers,
but we see the effect of it throughout history.
So what, here's what I want to maybe move into, like how then to do this.
So maybe let's imagine we're talking to the person that's like,

(41:58):
okay, maybe I was even a bit of a skeptic listening, or maybe I wasn't,
but I just don't even know where to go next.
You know, there's a million questions out there. I'm certainly no expert.
I work 50 hours a week, I've got kids, I don't have time to read,
I maybe can listen to a podcast, you know, I don't even drive to work anymore, right?

(42:18):
I work from home, I don't have time for podcasts and things like that.
How do I even get started in any of this? How much knowledge do I need to possess?
Which is like, where do I go from here? Okay, that person, okay, I get you, but now what?
Well, what advice would you give that person? Yeah, subscribe to my YouTube
channel, Hit the bell for notifications. Such a punk.

(42:41):
No, actually, I made a video about this on my YouTube channel.
It's overwhelming to think about how do I become an expert in this huge field?
Because it's not just like one thing, right? It's not like...
Become an expert in, I'm trying to think of something very limited,
like marine biology or something like that.

(43:03):
I mean, even that's obviously massive, but it's like, at least that's one field
that you can study, that you can figure out, that you can unpack.
Versus Christianity, it's all of these things. It's philosophy,
it's history, it's archaeology, it's all of these things.
And yet, it doesn't have to feel overwhelming. It doesn't have to feel like
it's this massive thing.
And partially the reason is because people ask the same questions.

(43:25):
You and I, we know this when we travel, when we speak, and we do open Q&As,
usually it's the same questions that people care about.
What evidence is there for God? How could a good God allow evil and suffering?
Those kinds of questions are asked over and over again.
And if you prepare just a little bit to answer those kinds of questions,

(43:45):
you'll be prepared for the vast majority of conversations that you have with people.
So my first recommendation, I think starting place for anyone who wants to learn
apologetics, I think there's nothing better that you can do than to read a good
general apologetics book.
Because there are several books out there that lay out the case for Christianity

(44:06):
and the reasons that you can believe and answers to some of those questions.
So I think my dad's books are really good. My dad's book, Confident Faith,
I think is a great place to start on that. He goes through why you should believe
in Christianity, gives 20 arguments and evidences for Christianity in that.
Confronting Christianity by Rebecca McLaughlin, that's another one that I often

(44:26):
recommend to people because I think she just does an incredible job looking
at Christianity, looking at the claims of it and how do we answer difficult objections against it.
And if you sit down, you read for 15 minutes a day for, you know,
three weeks, you can read any of those books, any of those books you can get
through, you know, 15 minutes a day.

(44:47):
Can you skip 15 minutes of scrolling on TikTok?
Can you skip 15 minutes of Instagram time? Can you skip 15 minutes of watching the game?
You know, whatever it is, 15 minutes a day, reading that book,
taking notes, not, not scanning,
not, not, you know, skimming the book, not, you know, not paying attention,
But actually taking notes, thinking through 15 minutes a day,

(45:08):
I think you can get through one of those apologetics book and you can be prepared
then for a lot, a lot of the conversations that you'll have with people.
And I think it'll also, it'll help you to, to understand, oh,
okay, I can, I could do this.
I can actually understand these things. And it may spark an interest for you
to read a second book or a third book or more and more and more in that that
can have avalanche into learning more and more apologetics.

(45:32):
Yeah, I think a book is a good place to start more than even sending somebody to video content.
And so that's interesting, right? Of course, joking about you plug in your channel,
but instead of only plugging your channel, you turn people to literature and
books. And I think that that is helpful, right?
Because a book will kind of frame it, you know, in a proper context, in a full context.

(45:56):
And oftentimes, you know, like YouTube and TikTok content, it's shorter.
And then you're on to the next one, and it's not connected, it's divorced,
it's addressing a different issue or in a different way or whatever.
And so it results in kind of this just quilt-like patchwork,
kind of just put things together.
And that's probably even a bad analogy because a quilt at the end is something

(46:18):
that is unified or whatever.
But here you just have all these different ideas floating around in your head.
And we just are blessed that we live in a time in history where there's a number
of good kind of starting place books.
I remember 15, 20 years ago for me, I did read The Case for Christ.
There was Mere Christianity. Christianity, but those aren't even like what we

(46:39):
have even now, you know, something that's like mere Christianity wasn't comprehensive.
It wasn't what we're talking about here, but it was still fascinating to me.
Although I would say that's my favorite book, I would say mere Christianity.
And I think every Christian should read it because it does explain the internal
logic of Christianity in a way that is very, very helpful. Yeah.

(47:00):
Yeah, it's easy to get sucked into a long conversation on that.
But I think that was the first book I read that made me go, okay,
Christians are really, really smart, which maybe sounds bad in a sense.
Like, did I think my parents were idiots? Which of course I didn't.
But you know, there's like, there's smart and there's like a different kind of smart, right?
And that was my experience anyhow, whether or not there's a better way to describe

(47:22):
it. But so, yeah, I do think books are, you know, finding a book like that.
And, you know, 20 years ago for me, whatever, I remember reading,
oh, well, what's, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist by, you know, Frank Turek.
And that to me kind of put all the pieces together and it's like,
okay, I see how this, this comes together.
And, you know, with reading a book when possible, I always give people the encouragement

(47:44):
to read it in community with somebody else.
It's easy to lose momentum when you're just reading by
yourself and it's you you
don't get the chance to process something and it's
easy to just you know oh how did i miss that right kind of thing or oh now i
get it that comes from doing it with somebody else so uh when able find somebody

(48:10):
and say hey i'm really interested in this thing hey if i even buy you the book
would Would you read it with me?
And we don't have to turn this into a big deal where we're meeting every week.
But even if we can just text back and forth about it or whatever,
jump on a FaceTime or a Zoom call at some point just to talk about it,
that would be really helpful.
So the learning in community piece, I think, is huge, which is also similar to another,

(48:36):
kind of advice that I give to people, which is get to know somebody who doesn't
think like you, find out what their stumbling blocks are, and then go find answers.
So there's a lot where, you know, I agree, of course, with the prepare before you go piece.
But there's also something about learning in real time, not learning in the

(48:58):
abstract, learning in a real life situation.
That is, it's just, well, it's helpful in the learning experience,
but it also is a strong motivating factor.
So do you know somebody that is, let's say pro-choice, right?
Get to know them, get to know their arguments and use questions to do that.

(49:20):
You know, you may feel totally unprepared. And, you know, we,
we just did, you and I did a thing with, you know, Scott Klusendorf and Megan Allman on this topic.
And there's a number of people that maybe even have, would would have listened
to that and been like, man, I'm just, okay, I gotta go buy the book,
I gotta read the book, I gotta memorize the book, and then I'm ready to go.
Now, there's anything wrong with that, but you don't have to know everything before you go.

(49:44):
In fact, I would say go even when you're highly ignorant and fix your ignorance by asking questions.
So go to somebody who is pro-choice and go, hey, I don't know how to even ask
this the right way, and I don't mean to offend you, but could you help me understand
why you believe like you believe, and then just listen.
Resist the temptation, or the urge, not temptation, the urge to argue back and

(50:09):
just go, okay, okay, well, so how did you, why did you, when did you,
you know, kinds of questions.
What do you think about the pro-life position, for example?
Are there any parts of it that you think are compelling? What do you think are their weak spots?
And just go and learn. Learn, build a relationship with somebody.

(50:30):
Learn what their questions are, and then say, okay, hey, thanks.
Would you be up to maybe talk about this again sometime?
I was really glad to learn how you think about this.
And I don't fully agree with you, but I'm also not ready for a debate and don't
even want to debate necessarily, but I would really enjoy a meaningful conversation

(50:52):
where we seek understanding about what's the right position here.
Most people would delight in that. Now, it takes time.
You got to carve it out of your schedule. You then have to go home and go, okay, crap, now what?
But now you have some real information to go to Klusendorf's book,
for example, or to then hit up, I know Matthew, does he do anything with pro-life?

(51:17):
Let me check out his YouTube channel. Okay, great.
Or how do you do, then you can start going to find answers to the questions
you know know, a real actual person has, and then you go get those answers and then you go back.
And in a relational context, you help somebody come to see what is true and

(51:38):
pursue it together in good faith with the ultimate aim of knowing the world
as it is, which is a loving act.
And aren't we grateful that is what our country has been built on,
the progress and the freedom and the success and the joy experienced by so many
in this country, and of course there's much hardship,
but we're fools to think if we don't live in a blessed state still, country still,

(52:02):
is in part because of the free exploration of truth, free inquiry,
freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and then the ability
to know people that aren't like you and engage in productive conversations has led to...
One of the best civilizations in the history of mankind. And that is all going away.
And I don't think the solution to that is simply a political one.

(52:24):
It's the one I just described.
Go get to know somebody that doesn't think like you. Learn why they don't think like you.
Go get some answers to that and go back and then go back and then go back and then go back.
Yeah, I think what you're describing is amazing.
And I think it's exactly how my dad became an apologist. When he became a Christian,
surgeon at a real saved Christian at the age of 17, I think it was, or 19.

(52:48):
He started talking to his friends and his neighbors and talking to people.
And suddenly he'd meet someone who is a Baha'i and he goes, what's Baha'i?
And so he asked them questions and try to figure out what they believe and why.
And then he'd go study that. And then he'd come back and say,
okay, I'd studied this a little bit. Let me talk to you about it more.
And then he'd have a Mormon knock on the door. And so then he'd go and he'd talk to the Mormon.

(53:10):
And then literally he tells the story while he was talking to the Mormon,
a Jehovah's Witness knocked on the other door, on the side door.
So then he had to talk to both of them.
And I mean, evangelism and this concern for others who don't yet know Christ,
that's the best motivation for apologetics.
And that ought to be our primary motivation because it's our primary mission

(53:33):
as Christians is to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations.
And when that is at the center of why we do what we do, Not just let me figure
out for myself why I believe what I believe and just let me feel really confident
and let me build up my tower.
That's good and we need that and you should want to do that.
But also let me extend bridges to people. Let me build bridges.

(53:58):
Let me reach other people for Christ.
That's the best motivation always for apologetics. So I love that.
Taking advantage of the opportunities that come to you. listening and asking questions.
In humility, giving answers that you have. Don't try to exaggerate what you know.

(54:22):
You know a lot of christians do that they in the attempt to win an argument
they'll start quoting you know this article that they read and by read i mean
they read the headline you know,
they're trying to act like the expert but no listen ask questions in humility
give answers that you have and also in humility just say i don't know i'll never

(54:47):
forget this experience i had had, you know, it's been 20 years now or whatever.
And I keep saying 20 years for every, everything. So it's probably not literally
true, but you know, one of early when we were married, I was still in seminary
working on my MDiv concentration in apologetics.
I was working two jobs. One of them was teaching at a private school.

(55:09):
And there was this one, one student who was the atheist.
Now, of course, in a private school, there's more than one person that doesn't
believe in Jesus Christ, But
this young man, that's what he wanted to be known as. He was the atheist.
That was the jersey he put on every day or whatever.
And I loved the guy. I mean, he was fun. He taught me things.

(55:32):
I never knew what steampunk was.
I learned all about Dungeons and Dragons. And yes, I am stereotyping all atheists
in this description. No, of course not.
But he so we and we would always
get into conversations about faith and i'll never forget this
one day where he asked me something or

(55:55):
it was in a back and forth maybe related to the problem of evil and he asked
a question that i didn't have an answer for oh man i hated it also you know
part because there's this dynamic of i'm the teacher i'm supposed to always
have answers right here's a student asking me a question that's just gonna look
like it's putting me in my place,
because a lot of times our conversations were public, in between classes or
whatnot, at lunch or whatever.

(56:16):
And it was never combative, too. I want to make that point, that it was always friendly.
But still, even so, in that setting, man, I hated not having an answer.
And what I did, though, was I resisted the temptation to change the subject, change the,
offer an answer that could even shut him down even if i didn't have confidence

(56:38):
in it you know kind of almost used my power to just win the argument and but
what i did i just you know swallowed my pride and i said man i don't know it's
a good question man it was like i just,
turned into something else right in front of him because
he had this look of like what just happened did

(56:58):
wait did i just did i just win it was like
you know this this moment of
like his his shoulders you know relaxed his countenance
changed and i'll tell you what man the future conversations we had were way
better because of course i'm not just gonna sit there content with an i don't

(57:21):
know my man that's a good question i gotta get an answer is there an answer
i gotta find it i don't even make one up i don't need to just win an argument
here what is the answer to that question.
And there, of course, was a good answer to that question. And it wasn't even
as hard as it initially seemed to me. But in that moment, I was like,
crap, I don't know. That's really good.
But that kind of humility just expressed in an I don't know was a game changer

(57:42):
in our relationship because he was really, after that point,
convinced that I wanted to know what is true.
And if I believe something was true, I wanted other people to know what was
true. I wasn't just out to win.
There was not fear driving this. It wasn't pride just to, again, just to win.
It was, I believe this is true. I want you to believe this is true.

(58:03):
And together, let's go get some answers.
So I just, my hope is that the church catches this vision because the United
States right now needs peacekeepers.
And it seems like counterintuitive. Well, wait a minute, peacekeepers shouldn't be arguing.

(58:23):
No, peacekeepers can argue, especially when they show people how to argue,
it can be what this world needs right now, especially in the United States.
If the followers of Jesus Christ could lead the way, demonstrating what it looks
like to pursue truth with gentleness and respect in love.

(58:44):
It can bring a lot of peace to a really contentious and volatile time.
I don't know. What do you, what do you, what do you think about it?
What do you think the, the way forward is, you know, when it comes to apologetics,
evangelism, just even the state of the country.
Sorry, I'm, I'm over talking to you. Go ahead. No, no, it's good.
I think that's absolutely true. And I think, you know, it starts also with treating

(59:05):
Christians well, because I think you're, you're, you mentioned that earlier,
just that we don't disagree with each other well. And I think that's absolutely true.
It feels like in the last few years, we've gotten to this mentality of let's
just use the tools of the world and let's just cancel our opponents.
Why take their arguments seriously when I could just silence them and cancel

(59:29):
them and get them fired and try to shame them publicly? And,
you know, it's a it's a that's that's the debate tactic, right?
That's the instead of actually taking your argument seriously and treating you
with respect, I'm going to treat you with contempt.
And unfortunately, many Christians are ready to do that to other Christians
who they disagree about, about sometimes trivial issues,

(59:52):
sometimes third order doctrines or ways that we communicate different doctrines or different ideas.
Is we're ready to, to try to get them canceled.
We're ready to just not actually have any kind of respectful dialogue and conversation.
And the world watches and just goes, what's different about these guys than about anybody else.

(01:00:15):
So I just think we are, we're, we're so hair trigger ready to,
you know, use the H word, just heretic, you know, we're, we're so ready to do that.
We're so ready to impugn people's motives, their motivations for why they believe what they believe.
And instead, we need to be ready to say, I disagree with you and here's the

(01:00:38):
reasons why, but I still love you as a brother in Christ.
Do you think one of the really practical ways to make this happen is to just argue in person again?
As you were talking, I was just thinking, not that you have to totally forsake
things like social media platforms, but I just wonder how many arguments are
had in real life today versus real life.

(01:00:58):
How many arguments are had in person versus how many arguments happen exclusively
through a platform? form because the techniques of debate are one thing.
And when you're debating a person with an audience watching,
there are some appropriate techniques that are different and you would never

(01:01:20):
use them in your house with a friend sitting across from you.
Do you think part of maybe the problem here and just even a practical way forward
is for, you know, when you say Christians don't know how to argue well with
each other or much less their opponents.
Is it because we never argue in person anymore? What, what, what do you think
about that? I think that's huge.

(01:01:40):
I think the, the siloing off of our lives from each other, the isolation,
the screen, the barrier of the screen is huge.
It gives you the courage to feel like you can say anything, do anything without any consequences.
You know, nine times out of 10, if I'm, you know, I don't, I don't often get
angry with people or need to confront them.

(01:02:02):
But when I do, when I actually have that conversation, I'm actually way less
angry when I'm talking to them in person.
When I'm actually eye to eye, face to face, talking to this person,
it's like, I love you actually.
And so yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
I will say, I think when there are public issues and there's public people,

(01:02:23):
then there needs to be a public response if you disagree with somebody.
But I think either having Having that private conversation first to go,
hey, I want you to know, like, I disagree with you with this, but I still love you.
And I, you know, I still, I think, think, can we talk about this first, just ourselves,
or having a public conversation, at least over over a zoom call or something

(01:02:45):
like that, where it's, it's not a, you know, text based Twitter, Twitter spats, where,
you know, it's just so easy to use sarcasm.
It's so easy to use shaming tactics and debate tactics that just undermine the
purpose of the conversation as opposed to when you're eye to eye,

(01:03:06):
face to face, having that conversation.
So I think you're absolutely right. We need more in-person respectful dialogue
and disagreements rather than shooting each other down.
And not to give up because you're right, you know, a public...
A public position does require a public response. So there's,
you know, right now there's just a lot.

(01:03:27):
Alistair Begg, for example, he's stuck in, he's doubling down,
tripling down, even if you will, on his views, whether you should attend a gay
wedding or a trans wedding or something like that.
And the responses back to it, there's a number of them that are just really
hard, man, really harsh.
And I'm not even saying there's never a time or a place for that,

(01:03:49):
but I think maybe just some of the wisdom and the discernment that we need is
to understand that public exchanges requires a very specific set of skills and
most people probably aren't competent in them.
And of course, everybody has that platform now and they didn't earn that platform.
It was given to them. Every person in the planet and it has been given a public
platform, and the vast majority of them do not have the skills needed to use it well.

(01:04:15):
So I think humility for all of us when we're like, I need, this needs to be addressed.
Well, okay, maybe, but maybe not by you, and if it is by you, are you ready for that?
Do you know that you have the skills to engage this well?
That probably should be maybe something you and I follow up on is just talking
specifically about the skills and the tactics in public confrontation versus

(01:04:39):
the relational ones, you know, for private exchange.
And even look at the Apostle Paul when he confronts Peter. He says,
I opposed him to his face.
So it's a face to face, right? And he did it publicly, right?
He called him out for what he did, but he didn't say, and therefore you are
disqualified for ministry for the rest of your life.

(01:05:01):
And, you know, anathema out with you, Peter, you know, no, of course he doesn't do that. Right.
He's, he's disagreeing with him on the issue and saying, Hey,
Peter, you're living in sin on this issue. Let me show you why.
And Peter repents. And then there's peace.
Right. And Peter refers to Paul's writings as scripture later on, you know?

(01:05:23):
So, So there's a way for Christian brothers and sisters to disagree with each
other that involves sometimes a public component, but doesn't involve this power play,
this canceling, this attempt to disqualify each other from ministry.
Like with the Alistair Begg situation, I see tweets of people saying,

(01:05:43):
call his church, get them to fire him. And it's just like, come on.
This is something that we can disagree about. Yeah.
So it's probably right for us to, when we argue, think of, what's the better way to put this?
We should always argue with the gospel in the front of our mind.

(01:06:03):
Yes. And what I mean by that is things like, I am one who is forgiven.
I must be one ready to forgive.
How does that kind of, and I'm asking this rhetorically, not necessarily right
at you here, but like, how does that thinking affect how we argue? Like I'm one forgiven.

(01:06:27):
I should be one that forgives. How should that gospel perspective affect how
we argue with somebody, whether it's private or public?
I don't know all the answers to that, but I think it does. And just because
as we were talking, one of the things that came to my mind was,
you know, when we argue publicly, like through social media platforms,
we're doing it in a context where forgiveness is almost never ever going to

(01:06:50):
be extended because there's just not going to be a possibility for it because
it's going to be with somebody that you don't know.
What, what, how do you, how do you ask for forgiveness? Have you ever seen anybody
ask for forgiveness through Facebook or social media?
I mean, you don't ever see it, man. I'm sure it's happened before,
but it doesn't. You say your piece, you do it, and then you go,
I'm not engaging with this person anymore because it's going nowhere.
Right? So there, it's this environment of confrontation, which inevitably leads

(01:07:15):
to offense. fence and what's never going to be possible is the opportunity to forgive somebody.
Or to ask for forgiveness. So, you know, man, we're really, really,
we should do, we should do a whole bit on just what does gospel arguing look
like and then specify the places, like public debate,

(01:07:35):
public via social media, private, relational.
And I guess maybe just because our time's running out here, maybe to land this
plane, I think you and I would both agree that the followers of Jesus Christ
must be ones that are bold enough to speak what is true because life is at stake.
Abundant life is at stake for everlasting abundant life, but even an abundant

(01:08:00):
joy-filled life here and now because the ways of Jesus lead to life.
The creator of life knows best how to live it, and in him there is joy.
So because we love our neighbor, we're We're going to be willing.
We're going to be bold and willing to speak what is true because we know that
sin comes and it robs, it steals, and it kills.

(01:08:22):
So we want people to find life. We must think through a gospel lens on how to
argue well, how to do so with respect, with grace, in humility,
seeking the good of another person.
And it's just time for the followers of Jesus Christ to be, quite frankly,
more clever in how we argue.

(01:08:44):
And if we figure out the way to
do that collectively, man, what kind of bright light are we going to be?
And how many people might come to find life in Jesus Christ?
Because we argue well. And that being an attraction to the message that we are arguing. Amen. Amen.
All right, man. Well, I appreciate you. Appreciate working with you.

(01:09:06):
Yeah. I'm glad we had a chance to talk. Thanks for having me on the show. This has been amazing.
Well, there's more to say and look forward to the next time, man. Sounds good.
Music.