May 9, 2024 • 50 mins
Stephen A. Smith says he’s always been ambitious, but nothing fueled a burning drive to succeed like being fired from ESPN. His exit from the sports network in 2009 radically changed how he felt about himself, Smith says—and how he wanted to make a living.
After ESPN and Smith parted ways, he began the long road back, starting on radio and leveraging his experience as a print journalist to develop sharp points of view. He eventually built a following whose size effectively made his return to TV inevitable.
After resuming his position in front of the camera, Smith quickly helped remake the modern sports media landscape. Now 56, he’s widely credited (or derided) for the “hot take” version of sportscasting that now dominates ESPN, Fox Sports and social media. It’s literally in the name of his flagship ESPN morning show, “First Take,” which he initially popularized with Skip Bayless. It now features Smith with a rotating cast of sparring partners, as well as moderator Molly Qerim.
Yet Smith has constantly stretched himself beyond ESPN—and sports—most notably through his podcast, The Stephen A. Smith Show, which he created and runs through his own production company. With more than 600,000 subscribers to its YouTube feed alone, Smith says he’s more convinced of his ability to flex that popularity for another record contract with ESPN (his current deal is up next year).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I apologize for people that's going to be offended by it.
When I'm in front of the camera, I just don't
know how to put it. I believe I'm the best
on the planet. I am not worried about anything or anybody.
You put the camera in front of me, you put
the lights on, I believe I will be a dominant
presence in front of anyone's camera.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
That's just how I feel.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Steven A.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Smith, holy smokes man, like, that's one where I feel
like the bar is very high. We watch one TV
literally every day, listen to his podcast, and my only
trepidation about it is like, well, what does he have
left to say? Turns out a lot. What did you
take away from it?
Speaker 5 (01:00):
I just resonated with him talking about his mother, his father,
when he talked about opening the fridge and not having
any food there. There's so much there. But he's so authentic,
and he's so confident, and he's fifty six, Jason, and
I really do think that he's entering his prime.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
This is a guy who basically says I didn't understand business.
I got fired and I realized I did not understand
what was going on behind the scenes, and then he
resets and sets about learning that. And now, to your point,
he's unstoppable in part because now he yets it.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Well, that part resonates big time with me because him
getting fired in my suspension and then the resetting and
the lessons learned. But the way I see it, if
you fast forward now fifteen years, for him is probably
the number one most influential voice in sports and almost
pop culture, is a trifecta of lessons learned, great relationships,
(02:01):
amazing work ethic, yeah, and supreme confidence.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Your point about like what he's building is so fascinating
because we talked about this notion of where the media
is going and how he reacts to it. And I
loved his answer when I asked that, which is basically
like I've already I've already figured it out.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
And everywhere he goes he's a pop culture hero. I
know that he came to one of the Timberwolves games.
He sat next to me, and I thought I was
sitting with like Muhammad Ali. Right, people in Minnesota loves
Stephen A. Smith, and I didn't think that was going
to happen. Right, He is very powerful and again he's
just getting started.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
And he's leveraging that. He's, you know, making a million
bucks a year a little bit more, gets fired from ESPN,
basically has to go away, come back only on the radio,
not on TV. Making four hundred thousand dollars a year.
Fast forward to now twenty plus million dollars annually is
most likely what he's going to get.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
He's earning every part of whatever that twenty million dollars
plus ends up. He's earned every dollar and he now
knows it.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
On this episode of the Deal, Stephen A.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Smith, all right, so we like to start the show
having people introduce themselves.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Tell us who you are stephen A. Smith, ESPN, Stephen A.
Smith's Show.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I guess that says it all now, New York Times
bestselling author.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I like that one. Yeah, that's a good one. That
works for me too.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yes, yes, yes, I love the way they've started off
this far, Soto.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I'm very very pleased. I'm very pleased.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
All right, So well, let's actually start there, because you
two obviously know each other. Now I believe your friends,
Yes we are, But I dare say that before you
knew each other, you knew of each other. What did
you know of him, what'd you think of him? Well, obviously,
his baseball career spoke for it elf. Obviously he's had
his trials and tribulations.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But I always considered him a good dude, somebody that
would get in front of the camera talk to people,
was personable, very relatable, tried to be fair minded and whatever,
and was just an outstanding great player. And so that
was the guy that I knew on the baseball field,
and I didn't know him in any other capacity at
that particular moment in time. And if I don't know
(04:23):
you at all, I'm going to be incredibly, incredibly objective.
When I get to know you, I'm going to still
be objective in terms of pursuing truth and.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
What have you.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
But if you're my guy, you're my guy, and I'm
going to go out publicly and I'm going to be
unapologetic about the fact that this is my guy. And
it's not just about being friendly. It's about looking at
a person and looking at them for who they are
and saying, that's a person I want to be friends
with because they're a really good person.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And that's how I feel about Alex Rodriguez. What did
you know about him?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Well, obviously I knew he was someone that was very
respected in my circles and especially in New York being
a Yankee. One of the things that was endaring was
that he was a Yankee fan, So immediately that was
a great connection. And one thing about steven A and
this is kind of when we got to know each other.
I went to my tough time in twenty fourteen when
I served my suspension, and he was critical about me.
So once I talked to him, I asked for his advice.
(05:17):
And one thing about steven A, if you don't want
to hear the truth, don't ask.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
For his advice.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
And he gave me some tough love, you know, And
that kind of started what I call a very very
good relationship, is very respectful. And then watching him over
the last ten years, I mean, he had his downtime
when ESPN let you go and you came back. I
had my downturn on my suspension. In the last decade
for both of us has been a lot better. But
I think the common theme is we come from the bottom,
(05:43):
we don't forget what we came from. But more importantly,
I think we've learned from some of them, At.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Least I have.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
I know you have as well, Stephen, and it's been
great to watch him develop to this mega media superstar.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
If you think back to your early days, how did
those early experiences family decisions, you made, decisions that were
made for you. How did it affect you as a businessman?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, first of all, I was incredibly ignorant to business.
But I think for me, if I had to crystallize
where business came to the forefront of my mind was
when I got fired in two thousand and nine. You see,
there's a difference between making money and learning business. When
you're trying to make money, what you're doing is you're
(06:28):
going out there, you're performing. You're praying that some sort
of a meritocracy will be in existence, you'll be recognized
for your attributes and your production, and ultimately you'll be
fairly compensated for it. When you think about business now,
you're looking at the entire landscape and you're monitoring what's
(06:49):
transpiring not just before your very eyes, but around you.
And you're looking at the stratosphere that you're venturing into
or that you're in the midst of, and you're paying
attention to the tea leaves. You're paying attention to what's
going on, et cetera, et cetera. Because when I got
let go by ESPN due to a contract dispute, it was.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
An incredibly humbling experience.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I went from having four jobs to zero in one meeting,
just like that. I didn't think it was fair. I
didn't think it was right. I thought I got hold.
I thought I got screwed over big time. And I
was very, very upset. But I was overwhelmed, not just
with sorrow but with fear. Because as I was driving
(07:33):
home from Connecticut back to Hollis Queens, New York, to
my mom's house, I pulled over on the side of
the road and I just put my head in my
hands because I was like, I've lost everything, and I
had no game plan. I had no plan B. I
had walked around thinking that folks yelling my name, screaming
my name, CMN commercials, I'm on TV, I'm popular, boom,
(07:57):
this is who I am, this is what I'm worth.
I had no knowledge, no clue whatsoever, of what my
true worth was because I wasn't attached to anything that
was perceived as being a revenue generator. And if I
didn't have knowledge about my business. Then they got to
define my worth, not me. And so as a result,
when I wanted X amount of dollars and they said
I wasn't worth it, I couldn't prove to them that
(08:18):
they were wrong because I had no platform or no evidence,
no dabta whatsoever that validated that. And I didn't know
that until they let me go. And when they let
me go, and I went about the business of licking
my wounds and then ultimately trying to resurrect my career.
What I zeroed in on was mastering the business that
I was in and ultimately positioning myself where I would
(08:41):
be able to define my worth and lo and behold.
I've had three contracts since, and I think it's fair
to say that I've kind of figured stuff.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Out, and another one coming, by.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
The way, another one coming. My contract ends in June
of twenty twenty five. I'm sure we'll be talking before then,
and hopefully things will work out. If it doesn't, it doesn't,
and that's business, and that's something that I believe I'm
going to be prepared to handle. Let's just say this,
this ain't two thousand and.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Nine, Steven.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
I do want to go back because we do share
a lot in common, more than the pinstripes. Yes, the
fact that we both fell and my suspension. You're firing,
But what lessons did you learn?
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And I don't think i'd be where I am today.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I was arrogant, and I was the worst kind of
arrogant because I was stupid while I was arrogant. When
I say I was arrogant, I never mistreated people. I'm
never humane and humane when I'm talking about is just
an overwhelming level of confidence and who I am in
what I do in this business, and I just I'm
one of those guys and I am to this, you know, for.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Better or worse.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I apologize for people that's going to be offended by it.
When I'm in front of the camera, I just don't
know how to put it. I believe I'm the best
on the planet. I am not worried about anything or anybody.
You put the camera in front of me, you put
the lights on, I believe I will be a dominant
presence in front of anyone's camera. That's just how I
(10:12):
feel because I'm that comfortable with it. And so for
me having that attitude, I thought that was all I
needed because people knew me and they screamed my name
in the streets. But you got to be educated about
your business, about the business in hand. Do you generate revenue?
That's what business is about. And I realized that I
(10:34):
was a victim of being a newspaper person because so
many newspaper people pay no attention to business. They pay
attention to the affinity they have with the audience and
what's reciprocated, and they will let that speak for them
because for years that's what it did.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
But the advent and the introduction.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Of sports talk radio and then ultimately television, of course
it was always there, but especially in this day and age,
the bait format ultimately need a podcast stratgy.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
There's so many different avenues.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Not to mention social media and how that could potentially
be monetized, because I don't care how good your product is.
If people ain't buying it, money ain't being generated. If
money ain't being generated, bodies are gonna fall because they
don't have the revenue to pay the folks that are producing.
And when you deduce things from that simplistic perspective, it
goes a long way towards humbling you. And then this
(11:24):
is the black element. As a black man. It's very
very important that I say this. The more knowledgeable I became,
the more I learned to depersonalize things. When I was
let go in two thousand and nine, I'm a black man,
I'm doing this, I'm doing that. They gonna let me go.
They want to do this to the white guy. That
was the mentality. And tell my mother, as I wrote
(11:46):
in my book, Straight Shooter, looked at me and gave
me a tray with some bagels and eggs and some tea,
and put a handheld mirror in front of me, and
she said, I'm just wondering when you're gonna look at yourself.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
She said, this ain't about all of that is about you.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You would have one complaining. You would have won talking
about your bosses. That way, you would have won lamenting
the state of affairs at work and all the stuff.
She said, I'm not saying you should have been fired,
but would you have wanted you working for you at
that time the way that you were? She said, I'm
saying it's time to look at yourself. If she hadn't
told me that, I would have kept licking my wanes
and thinking that it was them instead of me, and
(12:20):
I think that once I became more knowledgeable.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
About the business, the biggest lesson I learned.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Is that all of a sudden, you depersonalized stuff because
you can see why certain decisions are mean, and all
of a sudden it makes sense. So if you ESPN
and you expected to generate about fifty million in revenue,
but you only generated.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Thirty, well that would explain why I got less. But
if you got more, it would also explain why I'm
asking for more.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And so you know what's it going to be. And
that's the mentality, and that's what I've learned. The biggest
lesson I learned was the importance of mastering my business.
It's not just from a negotiating standpoint, not just to
empower myself as a as a talent, but as a man,
learning to separate emotion from business.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
And so the key thing that happens in your sort
of resurrection journey, as it were, is Dave Roberts comes
to you. What gave him such confidence in you?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Dave Roberts, everybody knows he and I are very very close.
Of course, I love him deally. He is an absolute
nightmare to work for. If you are not one thousand
percent committed to winning. This man lives, eats, and breathes winning.
He is not a pleasant person to be around. If
(13:42):
you are losing. He is dogged about it. And there's
one talent he believes that it's like him, and you're
looking at him. You know, I'm not you know, if
I lose, I lose what, I'm not gonna sleep. Well,
I'm not going to rest. I'm not gonna drop in
the ratings and stand still and accept that. I'm not gonna,
(14:03):
you know, be near the top of the heat and
not shoot for the top. I'm not going to be
at the top and settle. I'm not built like that.
And he knows, and he always said, you're a machine.
And you know he got that from a story Mark
Shapiro tells Mark Shapiro again as the president you know
(14:24):
over there William Morris, dvor and Mark Shapiro. When he
he brought me in the ESPN in two thousand and three,
he was told at the time he rod he was like,
who's this guy, Stephen A.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I'm at Fox. I'm at Fox Sports.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
At the time, Kevin Frasier, who's the host of Entertainment Tonight,
who was once at ESPN. That's one of my buddies.
He and I've been friends for thirty years. And he
was working on NBA shoot Around is what it was
called at the time, and he went to Mark.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
He said, this is what we need. Mark's like, who's
this guy? Kevin said, the best.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
You have to get him, and according to Shapiro, he
had twenty.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Five direct reports.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And he went into a meeting and asked what everybody
thought about me, and every single individual in that room said, hell, no,
don't bring him here.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
He's not a cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
We don't want them. He's not for us, he's for them.
Do not bring him here. Everyone except Norby Williamson, he
was indecisive. What do you want to do. I guess
he's worth a chance. I don't know what you want.
But everybody else was an emphatic no. And Shapiro said,
I've never seen anybody have such universal dissension against them
(15:38):
in a meeting like this. Get him here for an audition.
I want to see him. I go up there for
an addition, and eighteen different people interviewed me.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
And the last was a guy by the name of
Mike McQuaid, who was an exceptional senior coordinator producer at
ESPN for years. And he looked at me and all
he said to me, he was, you know, you're at
Fox and it's cool, but you know, essentially compared to
us in the world the sports, right, you know, they're
the little fish.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
We big fish.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
He said, you the big fish in the little pond.
How you gonna feel about being the little fish? You know,
the little fish in a big pond. And I looked
around and I said, I mean no disrespect to anybody,
but I ain't gonna be in a little fish in
anybody's pond. Turn the lights on, put on the camera,
and watch me do what I do. And he said,
all right, let's go, and he put me in the studio.
(16:33):
It was at two fifteen pm. At two forty five pm,
we finished at three o'clock. I was on the road
heading back to New York. At three point thirty, my
agent at the time called me and said, we just
agreed to a three year deal for ESPN.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Watch.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
A peer on them was watching and he called it
the greatest audition he had ever seen. And that's how
it started.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
And so I do want to go back to that
moment where you come back because you start this rebuild.
It's clear then, and you've described it in talking about Dave,
it's clear that you had a much I don't know
if you had a better grasp, you had more focus
on the numbers and what you had to deliver.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Is that fair? Yes? So where does it go from there?
Speaker 4 (17:17):
How do you build that sort of business and sort
of almost analytic foundation to take the next step.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, first of all, you have to assign yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And I talked to a a Rod about this, you know,
I was like, listen, man, you're going to do baseball.
This is a beautiful thing because obviously this man is
a savant when it comes to the diamond and I'm
looking at him and I'm like, the games, live events,
that's always a winner. You're a part of that. You're winning, right.
(17:48):
If you're not a part of that, what do you do?
You can make all the sports and appearances in the world,
to use ESPN as an example, but if you ain't
hosting this show, nobody knows when you're coming on. One
day is an analyst, another day is another analyst, another
day is somebody else.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So it's not appointment viewing.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
That means what happens is ultimately they could deduce what
the number is and they don't necessarily have to attribute
it to you because you're not a consistent presence on
the show. As a result, they get to dilute your impact,
therefore dilute your worth and as a result, say do
you hold your horses in terms of what you think
you're worth? This may not necessarily be soow So when
(18:25):
Skip Bayless came to me, and Skip Bayless was like, hey, man,
I need you on the show. I'm getting my ratings
and what have you. But to do something with somebody
every day, it needs to be somebody I know I can.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Trust, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
One of the things that I had to pay attention
to and ultimately had to heed was that that's five
days a week, every day ten am. That means the
audience knows exactly where to find me, which means that
if these ratings jump up, there's no way they can
deny the impact that I had because I'm right there.
(18:59):
And so because of that, I went to the show.
We skyrocketed to number one on ESPN two. Okay, we
were doing the unthinkable. We were beating some of the
sports centers in ratings, which is something that you know,
the elder statesman in the business was swearing we would
never be able to do. And then from that point forward,
(19:19):
it was just calculative measures that took place along the way.
Skip Baylor's was ultimately going to leave because he was
going to get.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Offered a boatload of money from Fox.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I had dreams of making sure that we transitioned from
ESPN to to ESPN one because ESPN one always has
more viewers. So if we're right there, that's definitely going
to facilitate us grasping a larger audience as those larger
numbers come in. All of a sudden, here we are,
and who's the constant. You've got Skip Bayles's he's in,
(19:50):
he's out. You got Max Kellum and he's in, he's out.
You've got Kerry Champion, You've got Molly Carum, You've got
all of these contributors. Who's the one constant, Steve a
beat at one constant.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
I don't want to get too far away though, from
that initial decision though, to pair with Skip, because I
think the three of us can agree that fundamentally changes
sports media. You and Skip had a relationship you had
seemingly dissimilar backgrounds, but actually, when you peel it back,
you're both incredibly hard working journalists at the core. Because
(20:26):
if we think about deals, that's probably one of the
best deals you do is getting into a partnership with
Skip Bayless.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Scared Bayless is insane and I'm not. Yeah, let's get
that out of the way.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And I say that affectionately, and he knows what story
I'm going to tell.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
It's two thousand and five.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Bob Lee is hosting sports centers on Sunday morning, the
Great Bobbley. And in hosting those sports centers, there was
a segment okay, old school news school.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
They had talked about it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Bobly ultimately took a hold of it and had Skip
and Eye On in separate rooms in a studio right
here in midtown Manhattan, and Skip would say our landish
things sometimes of what people thought were outlandish, and some
athlete got in trouble, and Skip Baylor's goes a national
television on a Sunday morning at eleven AM, to be exact,
(21:19):
and this man says, no athlete should be allowed outside
after eleven pm. He said, nothing good happens at nighttime.
Nothing good happens at night. Every athlete in that contract
should have an eleven pm curfew. And I'm literally laughing,
and I'm like, how old do you skip? How old
(21:40):
you have lost your mind?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
You know?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
And so we finished the segment and we come out
of our separate rooms and I was like, man, that
was hilarious.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Man, that was funny. Way to go. Man.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
He looked around, He's leaning to me. He said, I'm serious.
He said, no athletes should be allowed out after the clock.
Is nothing good that comes from being out after eleven
o'clock at night. And that's when I knew if we
ever paid, it's gonna be big time. Because I naturally
(22:15):
thought nothing like him.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Naturally he thought nothing like me. We were polar opposites.
It wasn't something that had to be manufactured.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
So Stephen, that was then, Yes, it is now. Yes,
you've had multiple co hosts. Yeah, I love what you
guys doing Mondays and Tuesdays, earn Foot on all of that.
The question is the rating wars, right, who's winning?
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Now?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
It was me close, not even close. And I don't
say that with joy, believe it or not, because I
want to win. I want to be number one but
I think a couple of weeks ago we won by
a ten to one margin.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
It's been very, very lopsided.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And I take no joy in saying that, because I
want SKIP to be successful. I'm going to always be
grateful for what he did to me. Keishawn Johnson's a
friend of mine. Michael Irvin is a friend of mine.
You know, Richard Sherman is a friend of mine. I'm
not rooting against these guys. I just want to be
number one. But you know, first take is definitely it.
(23:14):
This is at a time when linear television, you know,
is doing the ling shows a get canceled.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
We're going up in the ratings.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I literally had a conversation with the bosses, like, look,
if I'm going to continue to do this show, it
can't be about that, because now I'm competing against myself.
I'm proud to say that I wake up every day
with two thoughts in my mind, how do I make
my bosses more money and how do I get some
of it. I can say stuff like that about being
(23:41):
at ESPN because I know I don't show up to
work thinking about just myself. I show up to work
thinking about facilitating success for the company. And so I
want all of these guys to succeed. In these ladies,
I see you know them all. You see them all
every day. Anything they need from me, I'm happy to
do it. The bosses need something for me, I'm happy
to do it. I'm here to win for all of us. So,
(24:03):
but I'm not going to apologize for wanting to win
for me too, right.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
And so that leads to I think a fascinating conversation
about this moment that we're in that you're addressing directly, Stephen,
which is the media landscape is radically changing. Even the
business model sure they're at ESPN is changing. You think
about you know, Logan Paul, You think about Pat McAfee,
you think about Dude Perfect licensing content to ESPN. This
(24:32):
world is going to change. How do you ensure that
you change your business with it?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I've already done it. The Stephen A. Smith's show is
owned and operated by me, has nothing to do with ESPN.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You have people and respect to everybody who does it
because it's a money making business. The podcast Stratospy that
we live in props to you guys for doing what
you're doing. I'm proud of everything that I see and
I want everybody to succeed. But when you look at
those guys, they have podcasts. I have a show. What
(25:03):
do I mean by that? I came out of my
own pocket and I built my own television set in
my own television studio. I'm trying to produce content for
linear television and the streaming stratosphere. I can sit up
there one minute and I'm doing a thirty minute sports show.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Another minute, it's an hour show on politics.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That can go up against real time with Bill Maher,
The Daily Show or something like that. You look at
the set, you might peak at it and say, man,
this looks like a late night show Stephen Cober, Jimmy Fallon,
Jimmy Kimmel. Yes, it's true. Hell, I could do something
for Bloomberg News if I knew as much as y'all
did about business.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Okay, I'm just saying that. For me, that's what I'm after.
I wasn't out to do a podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Everybody else was doing a podcast number one and number two.
I didn't need to necessarily do that because even though
the landscape is changing, I'm still winning in linear television,
and by the way, it's winning and streaming because you
have to remember there is such a thing called ESPN YouTube.
People can talk all the stuff that they want about
the you know, ESPN's and Less households, and it was
(26:08):
one hundred million, and then it dipped to eighty nine,
and then eighty two.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
And then down to seventy one.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
What they're leaving out is that the audience hasn't left ESPN.
They're just watching it differently iPads, smartphones, laptops, et cetera.
And oh, by the way, in my first year doing
the Stephen A.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Smith Show on YouTube, which is separate and apart from
all of that, I already have six hundred and fourteen
thousand subscribers averaging over eight million views pro.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So I'm just getting started. My attitude is I've already adjusted.
It's just a matter of what I'm going to be
incentivized to do. I'm not going to be apologetic about this.
I want to and I intend to get paid. But
in the same breath, I also want to be somebody
that whether it's ESPN and Disney or someone else, looks
(27:00):
at and has faith in to help build find different talents,
scout and the value and create different shows and different
platforms for content I want to be one of those
guys as well.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Steven A.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
That's one other things that we also have in common
is a great friend and mutual mentor in Mark Shapiro.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
What did you learn from Mark Shapiro?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Mark and I have a special relationship. You know, it's rare,
and I'm just gonna say it. Plain to be a
black man from the streets in New York City, it
is rare that you find yourself in a position to
have the kind of relationships that I've been blessed and fortunate.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Enough to have. And Mark Shapiro is certainly up there
with some of the great.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Relationships that I've had. He's a businessman, make no mistake
about it. He does not always deliver me good news.
We do not always agree, and we will butt heads.
And if you don't know us, you'd be like, what
the hell is wrong with them? Why do they talk
to each other like that?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
What you don't.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Understand is that we could talk to each other like
that and be like, all right, man, I meet you
for dinner in an hour.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
All right, man, I see you next Tuesday. Were going
to the next game together?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
A right, when you have somebody like Mark Shapiro, in
your life.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
I just can't say enough of you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
He's alive, he's energized, He's constantly swinging for the defenses,
and he goes for it. And it's pretty impossible to
be in his presence and be somebody who's complacent, who
doesn't want to work hard, and who doesn't care about results.
If you're trying to win, you don't mind being around him.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
And he is the only I love Irian Manuel as well.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
We've had a great relationship for years, but I don't
apologetically tell anybody I'm at William Morrison Deavor because Mark
Shapiro is there. It's a personal relationship that I've had
with him for over twenty years. He is the man
that hired me when he was going to six Flags,
when he was going running Dick Clark Productions, when he
was all of these years that he was away from me,
he would still call and provide input and do what
(28:57):
he could to protect me, what to elevate me. He's
always always had my back and I've always appreciated that.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
We talked a bit about Mark Shapiro, and if you
haven't listened to our episode with him yet, go back
and check it out. Coming up we discuss how Stephen
a went from a local journalist to the face of ESPN,
plus how mentorship and accountability played critical roles in his success.
(29:38):
And so as we talk about sort of mentorship and guidance,
you know, one very clear through line in your book
are these series of and they are mostly men in
your life, and often they are men of color, Black
men who you know, whether it's Big House Gains, your
coach at Winston Salem, you know, whether it's Dave Roberts,
but even thinking about John Thompson, thinking about John Cheney,
(29:59):
what role did they play and how does that act
differently from a mentorship perspective. I am notably asking this
as the white guy he's setting here for you well,
because there's an activism thread there too that I think
comes into or worldview.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You could say activism and you wouldn't be far off,
but it's really not about that. Instead of activism, I'll
use another word with the letter A, accountability. These are
pioneers from the black community that toiled through the terrain
in a very very significant way, created and provoked change,
(30:36):
made differences, and ultimately had to confront hardships that weren't
given to the typical person out in this world. You
John Thompson, you have to go through a lot to
get to where you are. You John Cheney, you have
to go through a lot to get to where you are.
And for me to be in a position that, I mean,
let's not forget Sunny Hill in Philadelphia. Can't forget him,
(30:58):
Can't forget Rob King, former editor at the Philadelphia Enquirer,
the Great Bryant Gumble and the path that he paid.
I grew up admiring Ed Bradley, although I didn't have
the pleasure of meeting him. God Rest the soul. Former
sixty Minutes reporter. You see iconic figures that come from
your community. There's a standard they established and when they
(31:20):
come to you and they approach you and they're talking
to you about things, here's what you have to remember.
They're talking to you for a reason because they believe.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
You have the potential to do and accomplish the things
similar to what they did.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And they're letting you know. There's a responsibility that comes
with it. There's an expectation. You know, Reverend Jackson came
up to me with that one time. Al Shopton came
up to me with that one time. I got a
call from Barack Obama one time that came. You know,
throughout the years, you see people coming up to you,
and it's something in my mind that I appreciate greatly
(31:56):
because it reminds me that it's not just about me.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Excuse me, You're here, be mission minded. You ain't here
for just to check. You ain't here just to do
a good job and go home. You don't get to
do that because you have the power to influence lives.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Therefore, you have a responsibility to strive to do so
in a very positive way.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
And if it's with a hard, hard truth, so be it.
But you're doing it for the right reasons. And so
to me, that's the difference.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
And I've often said this because there are white individuals
that I've looked up to, that I've admired for many,
many years, and that I've talked to on a constant
basis that's given me advice, counsel tools. One of those
people that I talk to religiously that I love very
dearly is Bob Iger. You know, I don't, I have never,
nor will I ever ask Bob Iger for anything but advice.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You do not leverage relationships like that.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
This man and what he did to take me under
his wing, to care about me enough just to give
me guidance. Okay, it was a big thing. He didn't
have to do that. I'm not gonna I could leave
ESPN this year. I got nothing negative to say about
that man.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
That's my guy.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Kind of advice that Bob give you, he gave me.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
A boatload of advice. He also told you.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
You reminded me about the importance of business, not to
take things personal, to educate yourself about what you need
to educate yourself about, so you don't take things personally,
so you don't personalize it in a fashion that compromises
your ability to perform. And then also understanding you don't
always have to give into this need to fight every
battle and to come out swinging. You don't take relationships
(33:38):
like that and leverage that for something more. You do
what you do because other opportunities will always be available
to you when you're learning.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
From wise individuals.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
StepN and I know you've interviewed everyone from like Michael
to Magic as a young black man coming up, watching
these guys from Afar, writing about them in Philly and
the Ally News. What are some of the people that
you've admired, that have given you advice, and that you
sound like Michael Jordan and Kobe when you're talking about
I want to be number one?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
But how did they influence you?
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Both from Afar and now it's friends or mentors.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Well, when you're great, when you speak, folks have no
choice but to listen if they want to win. And
you know you're sitting here doing this podcast. Here's the
reality of the situation. No matter what you've been through,
there's no doubt that greatness was in your career. So
when you suit it down, I'm sitting in Minnesota with you.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
You got your black suit on you. I'm like this
brother's an owner for the NBA team, you know, saying
is going to own an NBA team.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I'm loving this right now. Earned not given, you know,
because you made smart decisions along the way. Every decision
was wrong. You made a lot of wise decisions, a
lot of smart decisions. The Kobe's of the world, the
Mjs of the world, I mean.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
People like that. You just watch guys and you watch
them work, and most of the I'm watching rather than asking,
because I'm a pretty keen observer.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And so when I think about a guy like Kobe
two thousand and two thousand and five, two thousand and six,
Kobe Bryant trial and stuff is over. He settles the case,
he's back, he's playing ball, never stopped, and he's doing interviews.
You know, he's still talking to people after games and
stuff like that. But he never sat down and gave
(35:28):
it one on one to anybody. And then he gave
it to me. And he comes into the quite frankly
studios that's the name of the show back into on
ESPN two from two thousand and five to two thousand
and seven, and I was sitting there like, like, yo, man,
people like my interviews, they like to said, they telling me,
you know, I'd be like Oprah. And his exact words was,
(35:51):
f Oprah harpo. I don't want to hear Oprah again.
You insult her when when you say.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Oprah harpo, she owns the Oprah Winfrey Show, she.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Owns her own brand. That's what I want for you
one day. And that's what he said to me, which
is why, even though I loved him so much and
we were pretty tight for a media member to a player,
it broke my heart when he passed away in that
helicopter accident because I was with him three weeks earlier
on New Year's Eve, hugged one another, talked with one another.
(36:30):
We were partying together at New Year's Eve and we
were talking about doing something together for ESPN because he
knew that I was about to start my production company
and I was aiming to make things happen. So he
was a guy that I just considered to be a savant,
just a brilliant, brilliant mind. And then when it comes
to just elements of winning. What touched me about the
(36:53):
last dance with Michael Jordan was that Michael Jordan said
things in the last dance that Michael Jordan had been
telling me for years.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
And so I'm watching him and he was like, you
might have and the.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Part where he got really, really emotional and he called
for a break and he was like, you might have
a problem with me. That's because you never want anything,
you know, he was talking to whoever he was talking to.
The sacrifices that come with it. You didn't do this,
you know, you didn't know what it takes. You didn't
know what it took to get to this point. The
sacrifices that were made and I take all of that
(37:29):
and I look at my life.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I've got two daughters, I got full older sisters.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Both my parents passed away in twenty seventeen and eighteen, respectively,
and I've got fifteen nieces and nephews. And there's a
lot of moments that I've missed. I don't have regrets
about that. It had to be done. We want welfare,
government cheese and bread, then spend long in it, but
we starved. I know what rats and roaches in the
(37:55):
house look like. I know what it's like to open
the refrigerator and they'd be absolutely positively nothing in there.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
I know what it's like to walk around starving.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I know I've been there, and I'm like, I'm never
going back. And my daughters will never experience that, and
my sisters will are done experience that, and my nieces
and nephews ain't experience that. Whatever I gotta do to
be great enough to ensure that we don't have those concerns,
(38:29):
I will do. And if that means that they get
to spend Christmas and Thanksgiving together. But I gotta be
on the road at work. I gotta be traveling, I
gotta be at a game. I gotta sacrifice time, that
family time. Yes, it hurts, No, I don't like it,
but I know what the alternative is in my world,
(38:50):
and the alternative has always been something unacceptable for me,
and I'm just not going there. So it's a decision
I made a long time ago and I don't look
back from them.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
And to that end, you know, as Alex has alluded to,
you're in the verge of being almost certainly the highest
paid sports commentator in the business. In your book, you
talk about your late brother. He visualized that for you.
He manifested it.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
He visualized it two months before he died.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
You manifested it. So as you think about that, I
know you think about him a lot. And what's happened
in those intervening years. Were you always confident this is
where it would end up?
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
No, I wasn't confident that it would end up where
I am today. I thought that I would be successful.
I thought that I would be pretty good, if not great.
I thought that you would respect me, you would see me,
you would know me. But I never thought I would
be in the position that I'm in right now. I'm
in a position right now where I literally, I mean,
(39:55):
I tell him.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
I just I did.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
My pastor has a podcast, and he had Beyond the
other day. It's always nervous being around him because I'm
trying to get there.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You know, I'm trying to get there. I'm not quite
there yet, but I'm like past I'm trying. I'm really trying,
you know.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And he's known me for thirty years and knows everything
about my life inside and out because he's my spiritual father,
and I confide in him about a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Thinking about your question, he asked me the same thing,
and I.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Said, I knew I'd be successful, but I didn't know
this would happen. Yeah, we talk about I could be
the highest paid. Well, let's talk about that for a second.
ESPN has done nothing wrong to me in that regard.
When I signed my contract years ago, I was the
highest paid.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Then, Yep, they treated me right. Things just happened, you know.
Other folks came down the pike. Pat McAfee, Kick and Tail.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
In the YouTube stratospy over two million hours, built the
show over seven years.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
He deserved, That's what he got. Troy Aikman and Joe
Buck are institutions. They deserve.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
What I mean, I can't even express to you what
it is to have them. Troy Aikman, I respect the
hell out of Joe Buck, but I don't really know him.
I love me some Troy Achman. That's my that's my brother.
I love Troy Aikman, you know. And he's phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
You think Kirk Kurbs, she's been there for years. You
think all of these other guys, they've been there for years.
It was their turn. The only reason I ever asked,
I answered any questions about me being the highest paid.
It was me saying, hello, it's my turn. You know,
my contract's coming up. I've been number one. I was
number one then, I'm still number one now.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
It ain't too many dudes.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
It's fifty six years of age, twenty years in the
television business.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
That's number one for the last twelve years.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
And when I say number one, I'm talking about every
week and every month and every year for twelve years.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, that's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
But that doesn't mean that ESPN is wrong or Disney
is wrong for feeling otherwise.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
If you feel otherwise, you feel otherwise, then I'll have
to find somebody who does feel like I feel.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
And you know, we'll go from there. But the biggest
thing for me is that people try to act and
they're trying to pit it like it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Some negotiating war. No, it's not. This is what I
bring to the table.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Do you value and appreciate me enough to give me
what I think I deserve or not? If you don't,
I respect that. I hope you respect the fact that
somebody else might. And we go from there. But so
many times people think that I'm talking about ESPN. I'm
not talking about ESPN. I'm talking about the business. I'm
(42:43):
talking about everybody. Hello, we live in America. I thought
this was capitalism. I thought we tried to inch as
close to my meritocracy as we possibly could.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
I thought we were about winners.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
If you're going to pay folks, isn't it it's supposed
to be people who would win for you. They didn't
pay him to lose. They didn't pay Derek g to
the lose. They didn't pay Michael Jordan to lose. I
don't recall that you get paid to win. I've won, now,
that doesn't mean I can't. I don't have to keep winning.
(43:17):
I understand the responsibility that comes along with it. But
what I'm saying to the industry, when I got let
go in two thousand and nine, y'all left me for dead.
He thought I was done. I'm not talking about again
Disney's man. I'm talking about contemporaries in the business. The
articles they were writing, the smack they were talking, they
were writing my appetash, talking major, major nonsense.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
And it's okay because you were doing your.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Job and you have a right to your opinion, and
based on the facts at that particular moment in time,
I gotta give you credit for deducing that that was
the situation and that was your opinion. Well, what you're
gonna say now, because I'm here, and by the way,
I'm fifty six and I'm coming I'm not done. Lost
(44:01):
forty pounds, Calester royal level drop by one hundred points,
insolent resistant levels from twenty seven to or two, body
fat from twenty nine point four to ten point four.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I'm not messing around. I'm on a mission.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
You look like you're forty six and not fifty six.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
I appreciate that. I think I look a little younger
than that. But say, I'm saying, stevehn At.
Speaker 5 (44:20):
What thing that you know, like Nick, my nephew is
an enormous fan of you, like other millions young people. Right,
But they forget Steven A, the writer in Philly that
wasn't making millions and millions of dollars. My question to
you is how much to being a writer help you?
Being so good on television everything? Because it provided substance.
(44:40):
It got me addicted to having something to say.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
When you're a columnist, you have to wake up every
morning and you have to be about the business of
what is the most attractive story to write about today?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
What will compel and ingratiate you with the reader? Okay?
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And do you have interesting content to provide? In some
cases three, four or five times a week? Can you
do that? When they called me screaming a I listened carefully.
I don't mind you saying I'm loud. I don't mind
you pointed to me being bombastic and demonstrative on occasion.
What I mind is if I sense you utilizing that
(45:21):
stigma to evade or omit my career, Dad, I will
not tolerate. I was in those press boxes, I was
in those clubhouses, I was in those locker rooms. I
traveled on the road over two hundred and twenty five
days a year covering the Philadelphia seventy six ers. I
(45:43):
did that and the NBA Playoffs and the NBA Finals,
And prior to that, I was covering college sports, and
prior to that, I was covering high school sports.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
I was the one that started out.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
As an intern for the Winston Salem Journal, and then
I went over to the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Then I
went to the Greensboro News and Records, where I'm literally
working from eight thirty to six pm every day doing
calendar items, school lunch menus and all of this other stuff.
And then from seven pm to midnight I worked for
(46:15):
free covering prep sports in the Piedmont Triad area in
North Carolina. They wouldn't pay me because they had no money,
so I used it because I wanted the experience to
generate filines so I could build my.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Portfolio and ultimately get a job in this business.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I'm the one that started out at the New York
Daily News as a reporter. From April of nineteen ninety
three to August of nineteen ninety three, I had to
cover homicide. This is the stuff I've done, so when
I'm sitting there and I'm looking at people and they're
talking like, you know, he's loud and he's one basketing,
he's demonstrative.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I'm looking at them like, you can kiss my ass.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Excuse my language, you can do that, because what you're
trying to do is you're trying to ignore any.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Race that I did what you did to get here?
All right, stephen A.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
Smith from New York, there's so many young people out
there admire you look at for you, watch your journey.
If they want to be the next stephen A Smith,
what advice would you give them?
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Be committed to the work and the journey, not the results.
Forget the sizzle because all that glitters ain't gold. You
got to be about to work because ultimately that's going
to be your saving grace, the work that you're willing
to put in, the sacrifices that you're willing to make,
the fact that you're not addicted to the glitz and glamour.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
It ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Keep in mind, when I got let go in two
thousand and nine, everybody knew, so being known and being
a celebrity and you know, being this everybody knew when
I fell flat on my face when I failed. When
my epitaph was being written and I was considered done
in this industry. Everybody knew my name is paraded all
(48:00):
over the place. That wasn't fun. So don't be too high,
don't get too low. Be as even keel as you
possibly can. Exercise humility, have that in a confidence, because
they're gonna come to you and they're gonna try to
break you down. Because, especially in this day and age,
with the advent of social media and everybody feeling like
(48:22):
they have a voice, criticism is more prevalent than ever before.
We have to understand it in today's society on far
too many occasions, folks, definition of success is bringing you
down to dare level because they can't elevate.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Themselves to yours.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
And when you understand that, and then you be about
the business of doing your job, mastering your craft, and
committing yourself to being the best at what you do
on an everyday basis. Every day is a new day.
You got to get up and do it again. When
you commit yourself to that, you're on your way. If
you're looking for shortcuts, just get out the way now
(49:03):
because you ain't going So you ain't gonna win. If
you look at for shortcuts, you ain't gonna win.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
You will fall love that. Thank you very much, Thank
you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
The Deal is a production from Bloomberg Podcasts and Bloomberg Originals.
The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly.
Our producers are Victory Veyaz and Lizzie Phillip. Our story
editor is Sir Dartha Mahonta. Our system producers are Stacy
Wong and Cale Brooks. Blake Maples is our sound engineer.
(49:41):
Rubob Shakir is our creative director. Our direction is from
Jacqueline Kessler. Original music by Blake Maples, casting by Dave Warren.
Our managing editor is David Ravella. Our executive producers are
Sage Bauman, Jason Kelly, Adam Miski, Brendon Newnam, Kelly Laferrier,
(50:03):
Ashley Hoenig, Trey Shallowhorn, Kyle Kramer, and Andrew Barden. Additional
support from Rachel Scarmzino, Elena Los Angeles, Anna Masarakis and
Randall Williams. Joshua Devo is our director of photography. Camera
operation by Jesse Riddner Billy Boyerman and Natasha Abelard. Our
(50:24):
gaffer is Rob Hilcox, and our grip is Pronoy Jacob.
Our production assistant is Diana Colung. Alex Eicanis is our
video editor. You can also watch the Deal on Bloomberger
Visuals YouTube and Bloomberg Television. Subscribe to the Deal wherever
you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I apologize for people that's going to be offended by it.
When I'm in front of the camera, I just don't
know how to put it. I believe I'm the best
on the planet. I am not worried about anything or anybody.
You put the camera in front of me, you put
the lights on, I believe I will be a dominant
presence in front of anyone's camera.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
That's just how I feel.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Steven A.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Smith, holy smokes man, like, that's one where I feel
like the bar is very high. We watch one TV
literally every day, listen to his podcast, and my only
trepidation about it is like, well, what does he have
left to say? Turns out a lot. What did you
take away from it?
Speaker 5 (01:00):
I just resonated with him talking about his mother, his father,
when he talked about opening the fridge and not having
any food there. There's so much there. But he's so authentic,
and he's so confident, and he's fifty six, Jason, and
I really do think that he's entering his prime.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
This is a guy who basically says I didn't understand business.
I got fired and I realized I did not understand
what was going on behind the scenes, and then he
resets and sets about learning that. And now, to your point,
he's unstoppable in part because now he yets it.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Well, that part resonates big time with me because him
getting fired in my suspension and then the resetting and
the lessons learned. But the way I see it, if
you fast forward now fifteen years, for him is probably
the number one most influential voice in sports and almost
pop culture, is a trifecta of lessons learned, great relationships,
(02:01):
amazing work ethic, yeah, and supreme confidence.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Your point about like what he's building is so fascinating
because we talked about this notion of where the media
is going and how he reacts to it. And I
loved his answer when I asked that, which is basically
like I've already I've already figured it out.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
And everywhere he goes he's a pop culture hero. I
know that he came to one of the Timberwolves games.
He sat next to me, and I thought I was
sitting with like Muhammad Ali. Right, people in Minnesota loves
Stephen A. Smith, and I didn't think that was going
to happen. Right, He is very powerful and again he's
just getting started.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
And he's leveraging that. He's, you know, making a million
bucks a year a little bit more, gets fired from ESPN,
basically has to go away, come back only on the radio,
not on TV. Making four hundred thousand dollars a year.
Fast forward to now twenty plus million dollars annually is
most likely what he's going to get.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
He's earning every part of whatever that twenty million dollars
plus ends up. He's earned every dollar and he now
knows it.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
On this episode of the Deal, Stephen A.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Smith, all right, so we like to start the show
having people introduce themselves.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Tell us who you are stephen A. Smith, ESPN, Stephen A.
Smith's Show.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I guess that says it all now, New York Times
bestselling author.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I like that one. Yeah, that's a good one. That
works for me too.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yes, yes, yes, I love the way they've started off
this far, Soto.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I'm very very pleased. I'm very pleased.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
All right, So well, let's actually start there, because you
two obviously know each other. Now I believe your friends,
Yes we are, But I dare say that before you
knew each other, you knew of each other. What did
you know of him, what'd you think of him? Well, obviously,
his baseball career spoke for it elf. Obviously he's had
his trials and tribulations.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But I always considered him a good dude, somebody that
would get in front of the camera talk to people,
was personable, very relatable, tried to be fair minded and whatever,
and was just an outstanding great player. And so that
was the guy that I knew on the baseball field,
and I didn't know him in any other capacity at
that particular moment in time. And if I don't know
(04:23):
you at all, I'm going to be incredibly, incredibly objective.
When I get to know you, I'm going to still
be objective in terms of pursuing truth and.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
What have you.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
But if you're my guy, you're my guy, and I'm
going to go out publicly and I'm going to be
unapologetic about the fact that this is my guy. And
it's not just about being friendly. It's about looking at
a person and looking at them for who they are
and saying, that's a person I want to be friends
with because they're a really good person.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And that's how I feel about Alex Rodriguez. What did
you know about him?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
Well, obviously I knew he was someone that was very
respected in my circles and especially in New York being
a Yankee. One of the things that was endaring was
that he was a Yankee fan, So immediately that was
a great connection. And one thing about steven A and
this is kind of when we got to know each other.
I went to my tough time in twenty fourteen when
I served my suspension, and he was critical about me.
So once I talked to him, I asked for his advice.
(05:17):
And one thing about steven A, if you don't want
to hear the truth, don't ask.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
For his advice.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
And he gave me some tough love, you know, And
that kind of started what I call a very very
good relationship, is very respectful. And then watching him over
the last ten years, I mean, he had his downtime
when ESPN let you go and you came back. I
had my downturn on my suspension. In the last decade
for both of us has been a lot better. But
I think the common theme is we come from the bottom,
(05:43):
we don't forget what we came from. But more importantly,
I think we've learned from some of them, At.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Least I have.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
I know you have as well, Stephen, and it's been
great to watch him develop to this mega media superstar.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
If you think back to your early days, how did
those early experiences family decisions, you made, decisions that were
made for you. How did it affect you as a businessman?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, first of all, I was incredibly ignorant to business.
But I think for me, if I had to crystallize
where business came to the forefront of my mind was
when I got fired in two thousand and nine. You see,
there's a difference between making money and learning business. When
you're trying to make money, what you're doing is you're
(06:28):
going out there, you're performing. You're praying that some sort
of a meritocracy will be in existence, you'll be recognized
for your attributes and your production, and ultimately you'll be
fairly compensated for it. When you think about business now,
you're looking at the entire landscape and you're monitoring what's
(06:49):
transpiring not just before your very eyes, but around you.
And you're looking at the stratosphere that you're venturing into
or that you're in the midst of, and you're paying
attention to the tea leaves. You're paying attention to what's
going on, et cetera, et cetera. Because when I got
let go by ESPN due to a contract dispute, it was.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
An incredibly humbling experience.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I went from having four jobs to zero in one meeting,
just like that. I didn't think it was fair. I
didn't think it was right. I thought I got hold.
I thought I got screwed over big time. And I
was very, very upset. But I was overwhelmed, not just
with sorrow but with fear. Because as I was driving
(07:33):
home from Connecticut back to Hollis Queens, New York, to
my mom's house, I pulled over on the side of
the road and I just put my head in my
hands because I was like, I've lost everything, and I
had no game plan. I had no plan B. I
had walked around thinking that folks yelling my name, screaming
my name, CMN commercials, I'm on TV, I'm popular, boom,
(07:57):
this is who I am, this is what I'm worth.
I had no knowledge, no clue whatsoever, of what my
true worth was because I wasn't attached to anything that
was perceived as being a revenue generator. And if I
didn't have knowledge about my business. Then they got to
define my worth, not me. And so as a result,
when I wanted X amount of dollars and they said
I wasn't worth it, I couldn't prove to them that
(08:18):
they were wrong because I had no platform or no evidence,
no dabta whatsoever that validated that. And I didn't know
that until they let me go. And when they let
me go, and I went about the business of licking
my wounds and then ultimately trying to resurrect my career.
What I zeroed in on was mastering the business that
I was in and ultimately positioning myself where I would
(08:41):
be able to define my worth and lo and behold.
I've had three contracts since, and I think it's fair
to say that I've kind of figured stuff.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Out, and another one coming, by.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
The way, another one coming. My contract ends in June
of twenty twenty five. I'm sure we'll be talking before then,
and hopefully things will work out. If it doesn't, it doesn't,
and that's business, and that's something that I believe I'm
going to be prepared to handle. Let's just say this,
this ain't two thousand and.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Nine, Steven.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
I do want to go back because we do share
a lot in common, more than the pinstripes. Yes, the
fact that we both fell and my suspension. You're firing,
But what lessons did you learn?
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And I don't think i'd be where I am today.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I was arrogant, and I was the worst kind of
arrogant because I was stupid while I was arrogant. When
I say I was arrogant, I never mistreated people. I'm
never humane and humane when I'm talking about is just
an overwhelming level of confidence and who I am in
what I do in this business, and I just I'm
one of those guys and I am to this, you know, for.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Better or worse.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I apologize for people that's going to be offended by it.
When I'm in front of the camera, I just don't
know how to put it. I believe I'm the best
on the planet. I am not worried about anything or anybody.
You put the camera in front of me, you put
the lights on, I believe I will be a dominant
presence in front of anyone's camera. That's just how I
(10:12):
feel because I'm that comfortable with it. And so for
me having that attitude, I thought that was all I
needed because people knew me and they screamed my name
in the streets. But you got to be educated about
your business, about the business in hand. Do you generate revenue?
That's what business is about. And I realized that I
(10:34):
was a victim of being a newspaper person because so
many newspaper people pay no attention to business. They pay
attention to the affinity they have with the audience and
what's reciprocated, and they will let that speak for them
because for years that's what it did.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
But the advent and the introduction.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Of sports talk radio and then ultimately television, of course
it was always there, but especially in this day and age,
the bait format ultimately need a podcast stratgy.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
There's so many different avenues.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Not to mention social media and how that could potentially
be monetized, because I don't care how good your product is.
If people ain't buying it, money ain't being generated. If
money ain't being generated, bodies are gonna fall because they
don't have the revenue to pay the folks that are producing.
And when you deduce things from that simplistic perspective, it
goes a long way towards humbling you. And then this
(11:24):
is the black element. As a black man. It's very
very important that I say this. The more knowledgeable I became,
the more I learned to depersonalize things. When I was
let go in two thousand and nine, I'm a black man,
I'm doing this, I'm doing that. They gonna let me go.
They want to do this to the white guy. That
was the mentality. And tell my mother, as I wrote
(11:46):
in my book, Straight Shooter, looked at me and gave
me a tray with some bagels and eggs and some tea,
and put a handheld mirror in front of me, and
she said, I'm just wondering when you're gonna look at yourself.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
She said, this ain't about all of that is about you.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You would have one complaining. You would have won talking
about your bosses. That way, you would have won lamenting
the state of affairs at work and all the stuff.
She said, I'm not saying you should have been fired,
but would you have wanted you working for you at
that time the way that you were? She said, I'm
saying it's time to look at yourself. If she hadn't
told me that, I would have kept licking my wanes
and thinking that it was them instead of me, and
(12:20):
I think that once I became more knowledgeable.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
About the business, the biggest lesson I learned.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Is that all of a sudden, you depersonalized stuff because
you can see why certain decisions are mean, and all
of a sudden it makes sense. So if you ESPN
and you expected to generate about fifty million in revenue,
but you only generated.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Thirty, well that would explain why I got less. But
if you got more, it would also explain why I'm
asking for more.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And so you know what's it going to be. And
that's the mentality, and that's what I've learned. The biggest
lesson I learned was the importance of mastering my business.
It's not just from a negotiating standpoint, not just to
empower myself as a as a talent, but as a man,
learning to separate emotion from business.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
And so the key thing that happens in your sort
of resurrection journey, as it were, is Dave Roberts comes
to you. What gave him such confidence in you?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Dave Roberts, everybody knows he and I are very very close.
Of course, I love him deally. He is an absolute
nightmare to work for. If you are not one thousand
percent committed to winning. This man lives, eats, and breathes winning.
He is not a pleasant person to be around. If
(13:42):
you are losing. He is dogged about it. And there's
one talent he believes that it's like him, and you're
looking at him. You know, I'm not you know, if
I lose, I lose what, I'm not gonna sleep. Well,
I'm not going to rest. I'm not gonna drop in
the ratings and stand still and accept that. I'm not gonna,
(14:03):
you know, be near the top of the heat and
not shoot for the top. I'm not going to be
at the top and settle. I'm not built like that.
And he knows, and he always said, you're a machine.
And you know he got that from a story Mark
Shapiro tells Mark Shapiro again as the president you know
(14:24):
over there William Morris, dvor and Mark Shapiro. When he
he brought me in the ESPN in two thousand and three,
he was told at the time he rod he was like,
who's this guy, Stephen A.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I'm at Fox. I'm at Fox Sports.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
At the time, Kevin Frasier, who's the host of Entertainment Tonight,
who was once at ESPN. That's one of my buddies.
He and I've been friends for thirty years. And he
was working on NBA shoot Around is what it was
called at the time, and he went to Mark.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
He said, this is what we need. Mark's like, who's
this guy? Kevin said, the best.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
You have to get him, and according to Shapiro, he
had twenty.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Five direct reports.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And he went into a meeting and asked what everybody
thought about me, and every single individual in that room said, hell, no,
don't bring him here.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
He's not a cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
We don't want them. He's not for us, he's for them.
Do not bring him here. Everyone except Norby Williamson, he
was indecisive. What do you want to do. I guess
he's worth a chance. I don't know what you want.
But everybody else was an emphatic no. And Shapiro said,
I've never seen anybody have such universal dissension against them
(15:38):
in a meeting like this. Get him here for an audition.
I want to see him. I go up there for
an addition, and eighteen different people interviewed me.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
And the last was a guy by the name of
Mike McQuaid, who was an exceptional senior coordinator producer at
ESPN for years. And he looked at me and all
he said to me, he was, you know, you're at
Fox and it's cool, but you know, essentially compared to
us in the world the sports, right, you know, they're
the little fish.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
We big fish.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
He said, you the big fish in the little pond.
How you gonna feel about being the little fish? You know,
the little fish in a big pond. And I looked
around and I said, I mean no disrespect to anybody,
but I ain't gonna be in a little fish in
anybody's pond. Turn the lights on, put on the camera,
and watch me do what I do. And he said,
all right, let's go, and he put me in the studio.
(16:33):
It was at two fifteen pm. At two forty five pm,
we finished at three o'clock. I was on the road
heading back to New York. At three point thirty, my
agent at the time called me and said, we just
agreed to a three year deal for ESPN.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Watch.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
A peer on them was watching and he called it
the greatest audition he had ever seen. And that's how
it started.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
And so I do want to go back to that
moment where you come back because you start this rebuild.
It's clear then, and you've described it in talking about Dave,
it's clear that you had a much I don't know
if you had a better grasp, you had more focus
on the numbers and what you had to deliver.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Is that fair? Yes? So where does it go from there?
Speaker 4 (17:17):
How do you build that sort of business and sort
of almost analytic foundation to take the next step.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, first of all, you have to assign yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And I talked to a a Rod about this, you know,
I was like, listen, man, you're going to do baseball.
This is a beautiful thing because obviously this man is
a savant when it comes to the diamond and I'm
looking at him and I'm like, the games, live events,
that's always a winner. You're a part of that. You're winning, right.
(17:48):
If you're not a part of that, what do you do?
You can make all the sports and appearances in the world,
to use ESPN as an example, but if you ain't
hosting this show, nobody knows when you're coming on. One
day is an analyst, another day is another analyst, another
day is somebody else.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So it's not appointment viewing.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
That means what happens is ultimately they could deduce what
the number is and they don't necessarily have to attribute
it to you because you're not a consistent presence on
the show. As a result, they get to dilute your impact,
therefore dilute your worth and as a result, say do
you hold your horses in terms of what you think
you're worth? This may not necessarily be soow So when
(18:25):
Skip Bayless came to me, and Skip Bayless was like, hey, man,
I need you on the show. I'm getting my ratings
and what have you. But to do something with somebody
every day, it needs to be somebody I know I can.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Trust, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
One of the things that I had to pay attention
to and ultimately had to heed was that that's five
days a week, every day ten am. That means the
audience knows exactly where to find me, which means that
if these ratings jump up, there's no way they can
deny the impact that I had because I'm right there.
(18:59):
And so because of that, I went to the show.
We skyrocketed to number one on ESPN two. Okay, we
were doing the unthinkable. We were beating some of the
sports centers in ratings, which is something that you know,
the elder statesman in the business was swearing we would
never be able to do. And then from that point forward,
(19:19):
it was just calculative measures that took place along the way.
Skip Baylor's was ultimately going to leave because he was
going to get.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Offered a boatload of money from Fox.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I had dreams of making sure that we transitioned from
ESPN to to ESPN one because ESPN one always has
more viewers. So if we're right there, that's definitely going
to facilitate us grasping a larger audience as those larger
numbers come in. All of a sudden, here we are,
and who's the constant. You've got Skip Bayles's he's in,
(19:50):
he's out. You got Max Kellum and he's in, he's out.
You've got Kerry Champion, You've got Molly Carum, You've got
all of these contributors. Who's the one constant, Steve a
beat at one constant.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
I don't want to get too far away though, from
that initial decision though, to pair with Skip, because I
think the three of us can agree that fundamentally changes
sports media. You and Skip had a relationship you had
seemingly dissimilar backgrounds, but actually, when you peel it back,
you're both incredibly hard working journalists at the core. Because
(20:26):
if we think about deals, that's probably one of the
best deals you do is getting into a partnership with
Skip Bayless.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Scared Bayless is insane and I'm not. Yeah, let's get
that out of the way.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And I say that affectionately, and he knows what story
I'm going to tell.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
It's two thousand and five.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Bob Lee is hosting sports centers on Sunday morning, the
Great Bobbley. And in hosting those sports centers, there was
a segment okay, old school news school.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
They had talked about it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Bobly ultimately took a hold of it and had Skip
and Eye On in separate rooms in a studio right
here in midtown Manhattan, and Skip would say our landish
things sometimes of what people thought were outlandish, and some
athlete got in trouble, and Skip Baylor's goes a national
television on a Sunday morning at eleven AM, to be exact,
(21:19):
and this man says, no athlete should be allowed outside
after eleven pm. He said, nothing good happens at nighttime.
Nothing good happens at night. Every athlete in that contract
should have an eleven pm curfew. And I'm literally laughing,
and I'm like, how old do you skip? How old
(21:40):
you have lost your mind?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
You know?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
And so we finished the segment and we come out
of our separate rooms and I was like, man, that
was hilarious.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Man, that was funny. Way to go. Man.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
He looked around, He's leaning to me. He said, I'm serious.
He said, no athletes should be allowed out after the clock.
Is nothing good that comes from being out after eleven
o'clock at night. And that's when I knew if we
ever paid, it's gonna be big time. Because I naturally
(22:15):
thought nothing like him.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Naturally he thought nothing like me. We were polar opposites.
It wasn't something that had to be manufactured.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
So Stephen, that was then, Yes, it is now. Yes,
you've had multiple co hosts. Yeah, I love what you
guys doing Mondays and Tuesdays, earn Foot on all of that.
The question is the rating wars, right, who's winning?
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Now?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
It was me close, not even close. And I don't
say that with joy, believe it or not, because I
want to win. I want to be number one but
I think a couple of weeks ago we won by
a ten to one margin.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
It's been very, very lopsided.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And I take no joy in saying that, because I
want SKIP to be successful. I'm going to always be
grateful for what he did to me. Keishawn Johnson's a
friend of mine. Michael Irvin is a friend of mine.
You know, Richard Sherman is a friend of mine. I'm
not rooting against these guys. I just want to be
number one. But you know, first take is definitely it.
(23:14):
This is at a time when linear television, you know,
is doing the ling shows a get canceled.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
We're going up in the ratings.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I literally had a conversation with the bosses, like, look,
if I'm going to continue to do this show, it
can't be about that, because now I'm competing against myself.
I'm proud to say that I wake up every day
with two thoughts in my mind, how do I make
my bosses more money and how do I get some
of it. I can say stuff like that about being
(23:41):
at ESPN because I know I don't show up to
work thinking about just myself. I show up to work
thinking about facilitating success for the company. And so I
want all of these guys to succeed. In these ladies,
I see you know them all. You see them all
every day. Anything they need from me, I'm happy to
do it. The bosses need something for me, I'm happy
to do it. I'm here to win for all of us. So,
(24:03):
but I'm not going to apologize for wanting to win
for me too, right.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
And so that leads to I think a fascinating conversation
about this moment that we're in that you're addressing directly, Stephen,
which is the media landscape is radically changing. Even the
business model sure they're at ESPN is changing. You think
about you know, Logan Paul, You think about Pat McAfee,
you think about Dude Perfect licensing content to ESPN. This
(24:32):
world is going to change. How do you ensure that
you change your business with it?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I've already done it. The Stephen A. Smith's show is
owned and operated by me, has nothing to do with ESPN.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You have people and respect to everybody who does it
because it's a money making business. The podcast Stratospy that
we live in props to you guys for doing what
you're doing. I'm proud of everything that I see and
I want everybody to succeed. But when you look at
those guys, they have podcasts. I have a show. What
(25:03):
do I mean by that? I came out of my
own pocket and I built my own television set in
my own television studio. I'm trying to produce content for
linear television and the streaming stratosphere. I can sit up
there one minute and I'm doing a thirty minute sports show.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Another minute, it's an hour show on politics.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That can go up against real time with Bill Maher,
The Daily Show or something like that. You look at
the set, you might peak at it and say, man,
this looks like a late night show Stephen Cober, Jimmy Fallon,
Jimmy Kimmel. Yes, it's true. Hell, I could do something
for Bloomberg News if I knew as much as y'all
did about business.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Okay, I'm just saying that. For me, that's what I'm after.
I wasn't out to do a podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Everybody else was doing a podcast number one and number two.
I didn't need to necessarily do that because even though
the landscape is changing, I'm still winning in linear television,
and by the way, it's winning and streaming because you
have to remember there is such a thing called ESPN YouTube.
People can talk all the stuff that they want about
the you know, ESPN's and Less households, and it was
(26:08):
one hundred million, and then it dipped to eighty nine,
and then eighty two.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
And then down to seventy one.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
What they're leaving out is that the audience hasn't left ESPN.
They're just watching it differently iPads, smartphones, laptops, et cetera.
And oh, by the way, in my first year doing
the Stephen A.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Smith Show on YouTube, which is separate and apart from
all of that, I already have six hundred and fourteen
thousand subscribers averaging over eight million views pro.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So I'm just getting started. My attitude is I've already adjusted.
It's just a matter of what I'm going to be
incentivized to do. I'm not going to be apologetic about this.
I want to and I intend to get paid. But
in the same breath, I also want to be somebody
that whether it's ESPN and Disney or someone else, looks
(27:00):
at and has faith in to help build find different talents,
scout and the value and create different shows and different
platforms for content I want to be one of those
guys as well.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Steven A.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
That's one other things that we also have in common
is a great friend and mutual mentor in Mark Shapiro.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
What did you learn from Mark Shapiro?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Mark and I have a special relationship. You know, it's rare,
and I'm just gonna say it. Plain to be a
black man from the streets in New York City, it
is rare that you find yourself in a position to
have the kind of relationships that I've been blessed and fortunate.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Enough to have. And Mark Shapiro is certainly up there
with some of the great.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Relationships that I've had. He's a businessman, make no mistake
about it. He does not always deliver me good news.
We do not always agree, and we will butt heads.
And if you don't know us, you'd be like, what
the hell is wrong with them? Why do they talk
to each other like that?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
What you don't.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Understand is that we could talk to each other like
that and be like, all right, man, I meet you
for dinner in an hour.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
All right, man, I see you next Tuesday. Were going
to the next game together?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
A right, when you have somebody like Mark Shapiro, in
your life.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
I just can't say enough of you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
He's alive, he's energized, He's constantly swinging for the defenses,
and he goes for it. And it's pretty impossible to
be in his presence and be somebody who's complacent, who
doesn't want to work hard, and who doesn't care about results.
If you're trying to win, you don't mind being around him.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
And he is the only I love Irian Manuel as well.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
We've had a great relationship for years, but I don't
apologetically tell anybody I'm at William Morrison Deavor because Mark
Shapiro is there. It's a personal relationship that I've had
with him for over twenty years. He is the man
that hired me when he was going to six Flags,
when he was going running Dick Clark Productions, when he
was all of these years that he was away from me,
he would still call and provide input and do what
(28:57):
he could to protect me, what to elevate me. He's
always always had my back and I've always appreciated that.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
We talked a bit about Mark Shapiro, and if you
haven't listened to our episode with him yet, go back
and check it out. Coming up we discuss how Stephen
a went from a local journalist to the face of ESPN,
plus how mentorship and accountability played critical roles in his success.
(29:38):
And so as we talk about sort of mentorship and guidance,
you know, one very clear through line in your book
are these series of and they are mostly men in
your life, and often they are men of color, Black
men who you know, whether it's Big House Gains, your
coach at Winston Salem, you know, whether it's Dave Roberts,
but even thinking about John Thompson, thinking about John Cheney,
(29:59):
what role did they play and how does that act
differently from a mentorship perspective. I am notably asking this
as the white guy he's setting here for you well,
because there's an activism thread there too that I think
comes into or worldview.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You could say activism and you wouldn't be far off,
but it's really not about that. Instead of activism, I'll
use another word with the letter A, accountability. These are
pioneers from the black community that toiled through the terrain
in a very very significant way, created and provoked change,
(30:36):
made differences, and ultimately had to confront hardships that weren't
given to the typical person out in this world. You
John Thompson, you have to go through a lot to
get to where you are. You John Cheney, you have
to go through a lot to get to where you are.
And for me to be in a position that, I mean,
let's not forget Sunny Hill in Philadelphia. Can't forget him,
(30:58):
Can't forget Rob King, former editor at the Philadelphia Enquirer,
the Great Bryant Gumble and the path that he paid.
I grew up admiring Ed Bradley, although I didn't have
the pleasure of meeting him. God Rest the soul. Former
sixty Minutes reporter. You see iconic figures that come from
your community. There's a standard they established and when they
(31:20):
come to you and they approach you and they're talking
to you about things, here's what you have to remember.
They're talking to you for a reason because they believe.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
You have the potential to do and accomplish the things
similar to what they did.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And they're letting you know. There's a responsibility that comes
with it. There's an expectation. You know, Reverend Jackson came
up to me with that one time. Al Shopton came
up to me with that one time. I got a
call from Barack Obama one time that came. You know,
throughout the years, you see people coming up to you,
and it's something in my mind that I appreciate greatly
(31:56):
because it reminds me that it's not just about me.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Excuse me, You're here, be mission minded. You ain't here
for just to check. You ain't here just to do
a good job and go home. You don't get to
do that because you have the power to influence lives.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Therefore, you have a responsibility to strive to do so
in a very positive way.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
And if it's with a hard, hard truth, so be it.
But you're doing it for the right reasons. And so
to me, that's the difference.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
And I've often said this because there are white individuals
that I've looked up to, that I've admired for many,
many years, and that I've talked to on a constant
basis that's given me advice, counsel tools. One of those
people that I talk to religiously that I love very
dearly is Bob Iger. You know, I don't, I have never,
nor will I ever ask Bob Iger for anything but advice.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You do not leverage relationships like that.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
This man and what he did to take me under
his wing, to care about me enough just to give
me guidance. Okay, it was a big thing. He didn't
have to do that. I'm not gonna I could leave
ESPN this year. I got nothing negative to say about
that man.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
That's my guy.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Kind of advice that Bob give you, he gave me.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
A boatload of advice. He also told you.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
You reminded me about the importance of business, not to
take things personal, to educate yourself about what you need
to educate yourself about, so you don't take things personally,
so you don't personalize it in a fashion that compromises
your ability to perform. And then also understanding you don't
always have to give into this need to fight every
battle and to come out swinging. You don't take relationships
(33:38):
like that and leverage that for something more. You do
what you do because other opportunities will always be available
to you when you're learning.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
From wise individuals.
Speaker 5 (33:48):
StepN and I know you've interviewed everyone from like Michael
to Magic as a young black man coming up, watching
these guys from Afar, writing about them in Philly and
the Ally News. What are some of the people that
you've admired, that have given you advice, and that you
sound like Michael Jordan and Kobe when you're talking about
I want to be number one?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
But how did they influence you?
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Both from Afar and now it's friends or mentors.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Well, when you're great, when you speak, folks have no
choice but to listen if they want to win. And
you know you're sitting here doing this podcast. Here's the
reality of the situation. No matter what you've been through,
there's no doubt that greatness was in your career. So
when you suit it down, I'm sitting in Minnesota with you.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
You got your black suit on you. I'm like this
brother's an owner for the NBA team, you know, saying
is going to own an NBA team.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I'm loving this right now. Earned not given, you know,
because you made smart decisions along the way. Every decision
was wrong. You made a lot of wise decisions, a
lot of smart decisions. The Kobe's of the world, the
Mjs of the world, I mean.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
People like that. You just watch guys and you watch
them work, and most of the I'm watching rather than asking,
because I'm a pretty keen observer.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And so when I think about a guy like Kobe
two thousand and two thousand and five, two thousand and six,
Kobe Bryant trial and stuff is over. He settles the case,
he's back, he's playing ball, never stopped, and he's doing interviews.
You know, he's still talking to people after games and
stuff like that. But he never sat down and gave
(35:28):
it one on one to anybody. And then he gave
it to me. And he comes into the quite frankly
studios that's the name of the show back into on
ESPN two from two thousand and five to two thousand
and seven, and I was sitting there like, like, yo, man,
people like my interviews, they like to said, they telling me,
you know, I'd be like Oprah. And his exact words was,
(35:51):
f Oprah harpo. I don't want to hear Oprah again.
You insult her when when you say.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Oprah harpo, she owns the Oprah Winfrey Show, she.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Owns her own brand. That's what I want for you
one day. And that's what he said to me, which
is why, even though I loved him so much and
we were pretty tight for a media member to a player,
it broke my heart when he passed away in that
helicopter accident because I was with him three weeks earlier
on New Year's Eve, hugged one another, talked with one another.
(36:30):
We were partying together at New Year's Eve and we
were talking about doing something together for ESPN because he
knew that I was about to start my production company
and I was aiming to make things happen. So he
was a guy that I just considered to be a savant,
just a brilliant, brilliant mind. And then when it comes
to just elements of winning. What touched me about the
(36:53):
last dance with Michael Jordan was that Michael Jordan said
things in the last dance that Michael Jordan had been
telling me for years.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
And so I'm watching him and he was like, you
might have and the.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Part where he got really, really emotional and he called
for a break and he was like, you might have
a problem with me. That's because you never want anything,
you know, he was talking to whoever he was talking to.
The sacrifices that come with it. You didn't do this,
you know, you didn't know what it takes. You didn't
know what it took to get to this point. The
sacrifices that were made and I take all of that
(37:29):
and I look at my life.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I've got two daughters, I got full older sisters.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Both my parents passed away in twenty seventeen and eighteen, respectively,
and I've got fifteen nieces and nephews. And there's a
lot of moments that I've missed. I don't have regrets
about that. It had to be done. We want welfare,
government cheese and bread, then spend long in it, but
we starved. I know what rats and roaches in the
(37:55):
house look like. I know what it's like to open
the refrigerator and they'd be absolutely positively nothing in there.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
I know what it's like to walk around starving.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I know I've been there, and I'm like, I'm never
going back. And my daughters will never experience that, and
my sisters will are done experience that, and my nieces
and nephews ain't experience that. Whatever I gotta do to
be great enough to ensure that we don't have those concerns,
(38:29):
I will do. And if that means that they get
to spend Christmas and Thanksgiving together. But I gotta be
on the road at work. I gotta be traveling, I
gotta be at a game. I gotta sacrifice time, that
family time. Yes, it hurts, No, I don't like it,
but I know what the alternative is in my world,
(38:50):
and the alternative has always been something unacceptable for me,
and I'm just not going there. So it's a decision
I made a long time ago and I don't look
back from them.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
And to that end, you know, as Alex has alluded to,
you're in the verge of being almost certainly the highest
paid sports commentator in the business. In your book, you
talk about your late brother. He visualized that for you.
He manifested it.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
He visualized it two months before he died.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
You manifested it. So as you think about that, I
know you think about him a lot. And what's happened
in those intervening years. Were you always confident this is
where it would end up?
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
No, I wasn't confident that it would end up where
I am today. I thought that I would be successful.
I thought that I would be pretty good, if not great.
I thought that you would respect me, you would see me,
you would know me. But I never thought I would
be in the position that I'm in right now. I'm
in a position right now where I literally, I mean,
(39:55):
I tell him.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
I just I did.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
My pastor has a podcast, and he had Beyond the
other day. It's always nervous being around him because I'm
trying to get there.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You know, I'm trying to get there. I'm not quite
there yet, but I'm like past I'm trying. I'm really trying,
you know.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And he's known me for thirty years and knows everything
about my life inside and out because he's my spiritual father,
and I confide in him about a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Thinking about your question, he asked me the same thing,
and I.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Said, I knew I'd be successful, but I didn't know
this would happen. Yeah, we talk about I could be
the highest paid. Well, let's talk about that for a second.
ESPN has done nothing wrong to me in that regard.
When I signed my contract years ago, I was the
highest paid.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Then, Yep, they treated me right. Things just happened, you know.
Other folks came down the pike. Pat McAfee, Kick and Tail.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
In the YouTube stratospy over two million hours, built the
show over seven years.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
He deserved, That's what he got. Troy Aikman and Joe
Buck are institutions. They deserve.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
What I mean, I can't even express to you what
it is to have them. Troy Aikman, I respect the
hell out of Joe Buck, but I don't really know him.
I love me some Troy Achman. That's my that's my brother.
I love Troy Aikman, you know. And he's phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
You think Kirk Kurbs, she's been there for years. You
think all of these other guys, they've been there for years.
It was their turn. The only reason I ever asked,
I answered any questions about me being the highest paid.
It was me saying, hello, it's my turn. You know,
my contract's coming up. I've been number one. I was
number one then, I'm still number one now.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
It ain't too many dudes.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
It's fifty six years of age, twenty years in the
television business.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
That's number one for the last twelve years.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
And when I say number one, I'm talking about every
week and every month and every year for twelve years.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, that's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
But that doesn't mean that ESPN is wrong or Disney
is wrong for feeling otherwise.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
If you feel otherwise, you feel otherwise, then I'll have
to find somebody who does feel like I feel.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
And you know, we'll go from there. But the biggest
thing for me is that people try to act and
they're trying to pit it like it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Some negotiating war. No, it's not. This is what I
bring to the table.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Do you value and appreciate me enough to give me
what I think I deserve or not? If you don't,
I respect that. I hope you respect the fact that
somebody else might. And we go from there. But so
many times people think that I'm talking about ESPN. I'm
not talking about ESPN. I'm talking about the business. I'm
(42:43):
talking about everybody. Hello, we live in America. I thought
this was capitalism. I thought we tried to inch as
close to my meritocracy as we possibly could.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
I thought we were about winners.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
If you're going to pay folks, isn't it it's supposed
to be people who would win for you. They didn't
pay him to lose. They didn't pay Derek g to
the lose. They didn't pay Michael Jordan to lose. I
don't recall that you get paid to win. I've won, now,
that doesn't mean I can't. I don't have to keep winning.
(43:17):
I understand the responsibility that comes along with it. But
what I'm saying to the industry, when I got let
go in two thousand and nine, y'all left me for dead.
He thought I was done. I'm not talking about again
Disney's man. I'm talking about contemporaries in the business. The
articles they were writing, the smack they were talking, they
were writing my appetash, talking major, major nonsense.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
And it's okay because you were doing your.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Job and you have a right to your opinion, and
based on the facts at that particular moment in time,
I gotta give you credit for deducing that that was
the situation and that was your opinion. Well, what you're
gonna say now, because I'm here, and by the way,
I'm fifty six and I'm coming I'm not done. Lost
(44:01):
forty pounds, Calester royal level drop by one hundred points,
insolent resistant levels from twenty seven to or two, body
fat from twenty nine point four to ten point four.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I'm not messing around. I'm on a mission.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
You look like you're forty six and not fifty six.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
I appreciate that. I think I look a little younger
than that. But say, I'm saying, stevehn At.
Speaker 5 (44:20):
What thing that you know, like Nick, my nephew is
an enormous fan of you, like other millions young people. Right,
But they forget Steven A, the writer in Philly that
wasn't making millions and millions of dollars. My question to
you is how much to being a writer help you?
Being so good on television everything? Because it provided substance.
(44:40):
It got me addicted to having something to say.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
When you're a columnist, you have to wake up every
morning and you have to be about the business of
what is the most attractive story to write about today?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
What will compel and ingratiate you with the reader? Okay?
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And do you have interesting content to provide? In some
cases three, four or five times a week? Can you
do that? When they called me screaming a I listened carefully.
I don't mind you saying I'm loud. I don't mind
you pointed to me being bombastic and demonstrative on occasion.
What I mind is if I sense you utilizing that
(45:21):
stigma to evade or omit my career, Dad, I will
not tolerate. I was in those press boxes, I was
in those clubhouses, I was in those locker rooms. I
traveled on the road over two hundred and twenty five
days a year covering the Philadelphia seventy six ers. I
(45:43):
did that and the NBA Playoffs and the NBA Finals,
And prior to that, I was covering college sports, and
prior to that, I was covering high school sports.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
I was the one that started out.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
As an intern for the Winston Salem Journal, and then
I went over to the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Then I
went to the Greensboro News and Records, where I'm literally
working from eight thirty to six pm every day doing
calendar items, school lunch menus and all of this other stuff.
And then from seven pm to midnight I worked for
(46:15):
free covering prep sports in the Piedmont Triad area in
North Carolina. They wouldn't pay me because they had no money,
so I used it because I wanted the experience to
generate filines so I could build my.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Portfolio and ultimately get a job in this business.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I'm the one that started out at the New York
Daily News as a reporter. From April of nineteen ninety
three to August of nineteen ninety three, I had to
cover homicide. This is the stuff I've done, so when
I'm sitting there and I'm looking at people and they're
talking like, you know, he's loud and he's one basketing,
he's demonstrative.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I'm looking at them like, you can kiss my ass.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Excuse my language, you can do that, because what you're
trying to do is you're trying to ignore any.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Race that I did what you did to get here?
All right, stephen A.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
Smith from New York, there's so many young people out
there admire you look at for you, watch your journey.
If they want to be the next stephen A Smith,
what advice would you give them?
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Be committed to the work and the journey, not the results.
Forget the sizzle because all that glitters ain't gold. You
got to be about to work because ultimately that's going
to be your saving grace, the work that you're willing
to put in, the sacrifices that you're willing to make,
the fact that you're not addicted to the glitz and glamour.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
It ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Keep in mind, when I got let go in two
thousand and nine, everybody knew, so being known and being
a celebrity and you know, being this everybody knew when
I fell flat on my face when I failed. When
my epitaph was being written and I was considered done
in this industry. Everybody knew my name is paraded all
(48:00):
over the place. That wasn't fun. So don't be too high,
don't get too low. Be as even keel as you
possibly can. Exercise humility, have that in a confidence, because
they're gonna come to you and they're gonna try to
break you down. Because, especially in this day and age,
with the advent of social media and everybody feeling like
(48:22):
they have a voice, criticism is more prevalent than ever before.
We have to understand it in today's society on far
too many occasions, folks, definition of success is bringing you
down to dare level because they can't elevate.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Themselves to yours.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
And when you understand that, and then you be about
the business of doing your job, mastering your craft, and
committing yourself to being the best at what you do
on an everyday basis. Every day is a new day.
You got to get up and do it again. When
you commit yourself to that, you're on your way. If
you're looking for shortcuts, just get out the way now
(49:03):
because you ain't going So you ain't gonna win. If
you look at for shortcuts, you ain't gonna win.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
You will fall love that. Thank you very much, Thank
you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
The Deal is a production from Bloomberg Podcasts and Bloomberg Originals.
The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly.
Our producers are Victory Veyaz and Lizzie Phillip. Our story
editor is Sir Dartha Mahonta. Our system producers are Stacy
Wong and Cale Brooks. Blake Maples is our sound engineer.
(49:41):
Rubob Shakir is our creative director. Our direction is from
Jacqueline Kessler. Original music by Blake Maples, casting by Dave Warren.
Our managing editor is David Ravella. Our executive producers are
Sage Bauman, Jason Kelly, Adam Miski, Brendon Newnam, Kelly Laferrier,
(50:03):
Ashley Hoenig, Trey Shallowhorn, Kyle Kramer, and Andrew Barden. Additional
support from Rachel Scarmzino, Elena Los Angeles, Anna Masarakis and
Randall Williams. Joshua Devo is our director of photography. Camera
operation by Jesse Riddner Billy Boyerman and Natasha Abelard. Our
(50:24):
gaffer is Rob Hilcox, and our grip is Pronoy Jacob.
Our production assistant is Diana Colung. Alex Eicanis is our
video editor. You can also watch the Deal on Bloomberger
Visuals YouTube and Bloomberg Television. Subscribe to the Deal wherever
you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
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