April 18, 2025 • 46 mins
I’ve been doing a lot of shifting lately. Structuring my time differently. Saying no to things that used to get a default yes. Creating space not just in my calendar, but in my head and heart for things that actually matter to me.
In this episode, I sat down with my mate Mark LeBusque and we spoke about all of it. The constant recalibration. The resistance to slowing down. The trap of chasing what we think success should look like. The way we celebrate wins but never interrogate them.
We talked about being 15,429 days old and still learning how to be human. How even when you know better, you still forget. Still fall back into the grind. Still need someone to flick you on the ear now and then to wake you up.
And somewhere in between the laughs, the deep stuff, and the robot in the corner of Mark’s office… we both found ourselves asking some pretty honest questions.
If you’re feeling stretched, stuck, or like you’re pouring energy into the wrong things, this one might land.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff. This is role with the punches and we're
turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go
to court, and don't. My friends at test Art Family
Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution.
Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in
(00:29):
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reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Mark Lebaska, I thought
(00:53):
you were never coming back to the show where you've been, bro,
I feel.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Very new us today. This is like starting all over again,
so we might need to see if find some things
in common and just connect a bit before we start
to talk to each other years ago. Yeah, well, how
have I been? I like not to use the word good,
how have I been? I've been? Jeez, what's the word?
(01:25):
Running around? A bit like a blue ass fly, but
with good things going on? Good?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I feel like it's interesting that our very last
podcast would flipped the flipped roles and i'd you know,
put you, put you in the hot seat, and then
you fucking disappeared off the show for a few years.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
The ship out of me, mate, and a shout out
to my brother in law's partner Jane, who sent me
a lovely notes and listening to that podcast you did
with Tiffany and it was bloody, full on and good
on you for saying what you did. And I'm thinking,
oh wow, but I listened to that. I actually listened
to it when I was on the on the bus
(02:10):
traveling around Sri Lanka because I'd gone off to Shreelank.
I listened to the whole thing and it was like, wow,
we no wonder you're on holidays mate. I reckon, and
I reckon it took me. It was about thirteen day holiday.
I reckon it took me because I'd finished in towns
Well on the twenties. On the twenty first. In November
(02:30):
twenty second, I was catching a flight back to Melbourne.
Twenty third, we were flying to Sri Lanka. I don't
reckon till about the twenty well. I actually yeah, later
that month, i'd actually felt like I was on holidays.
I think it was decompressing still, so I was running.
I was running around like a blue ass flight that stage,
(02:51):
but disappearing at my own ass at the same time.
So things feel a bit better. Then we've had a
bit go on. We've had a I end up taking
two months off, by the way, so I didn't go
back to work till February.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And well done.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
And then our youngest got married in March. We we
can have a bit of a chat about that if
you like. That was quite interesting, and then we sort
of back into it again. And now I've got a
bit of time at home and it's interesting because we've
still got a good bit of work on, but it's
not as hectic as it was last year. And then
your little voice goes will come on you should be
(03:27):
doing more, and I'm like, no, we're not. Really. Just
enjoy the fact that you want more time in Melbourne
and you're in Melbourne. So yeah, it's been been an
interesting little ride and I have missed these and I'm
looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I want to know what was it like for you
listening to that episode of yourself, Like was it different
in any way? Like sometimes we're not because you often do.
We often have those conversations, but quite often I'm in
the hot seat, and when I listen back, I enjoy
(04:03):
listening back because it's almost, well it's not almost. It's
a bloody coaching session. Or sometimes you'll ask some pointy
questions or you'll probe a little bit, and I love it,
and I love re listening just because I sometimes I
perceive things differently around myself, or I come up with
new questions to ask myself. What was your experience listening back?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So, first of all, thank you, because it was a
in some respects of coaching session. I reckon for me,
what didn't happen when I was listening to it. There
wasn't any shame or fuck did I say that? Or
should have I said that? It was like, no, this
was a point in time where I had some choices
(04:50):
to make. They were you cannot talk about it, and
you can internalize it and we know what happens with
that sort of stuff, or you can respect the help
that you're getting from someone else to create a supposed
to do that. So look, I was sort of sitting
there going, yeah, this is pretty cool. I'm really happy
(05:13):
that I'm saying these things. They may some people may think, oh,
geez mate, you're supposed to be good at this stuff
and you sound like you're fuck an unraveling yourself. Well,
thank you. And then secondly, it's just a reinforcement, you know,
when you're in when we're in these conversations, I think
that I'm here and I'm present and all that, but
(05:35):
there's nothing better than listening back to it. And I
think I've listened to it three or four times since then.
It's not just like I better listen to it because
you know, I want to check in on what I said,
just in case I get any blowback from anywhere. It's like, no, no, no,
I go back and listen to it again. In fact,
i'm doing an immunity to change. Next week with someone's
(05:57):
taking me through it, I'll have a listen to it
again because I think for it's like a Seinfeld episode.
To me, I've watched Seinfeld episodes twenty times, but I
always picked something new up. So it was a great
look for me. It was a cognitively releasing conversation, and
(06:19):
the more that I listened to it, the more that
you feel that cognitive load reducing. But also you then
look back and go, how was it helpful? Well, very much.
At that time I made the decision. I was sitting
on the bus to go, you're not going back to
(06:40):
work till February, and I didn't. Don't you excellent?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Good? I love that. I love it, and I reckon
like coaching wouldn't exist as a thing if we didn't. All,
including coaches, require a different perspective at times, and you can't.
I mean, there's ways, there's different ways to get a
(07:08):
different perspective, and definitely going for me, that traveling experience
was a huge shifting perspective. That's an immediate one. You
get somewhere else and you're like, oh wow, I'm outside
of the echo chamber of the world I lived in,
and now I see and feel and understand everything very differently.
And I think even as coaches, we can know things,
(07:31):
but we're inside the things we know. And so that's
and like I said, when I am in the conversations
with you answering the questions, I have a different experience
than when I and it could be the same day.
I could listen to it the same day or the
same week and hear it differently. As an observer of
(07:53):
the conversation when I'm not in the moment. I went
back not that long ago and listened to the very
first episode with doctor Bill, who's now my therapist, and
when that would have been good two or three, a
couple of years ago, I guess, or three years ago.
And when I listened back now to some of the
(08:15):
really pointy parts of that conversation where he was probing,
I was listening and I was just cringing, going, ah,
you didn't. I didn't feel at the time like I
was deliberately dodging questions. But when I listen back now,
it almost makes me cringe how much it felt like
(08:37):
I could see myself square squirming where that wasn't the
experience in the moment so interesting?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yep, yep. And it's a very different experience to I think.
The first thing with all of this stuff that we do,
one of the hardest things early just to digress a little,
was just to start to hear your own voice. I
never listened to you, but that's a very surface level,
ego driven thing. You sound like a like Je's mate.
(09:06):
You've got a bit of a lisp there, and you
say you've got Bogan words but then it's like, oh,
let's really get past that and get to what's actually
being said rather than the way that it's coming out.
So there's always that look. For me, it was it's
a big thanks because you chose I think we'd had
a conversation and you'd run me and you're like, you
(09:31):
are right, and I went no, not really, and then
you're right, right right, and then you went right, I'm
going to do something about that. So there's a huge
thank you to you for that too, because one of
the easy things for any of us to do when
we get some engrossed in our own shit is to
choose to look away when we notice something with someone
(09:51):
else that we have built a relationship with. So that
was a really important time for me, and I think
it's leading into this immunity to change. I'm going to
do with that next week. Alex is based in Perth.
I said, I just sent her a message and said, look,
I need to do it. I see at the moment
because I reckon, there's some shit going on that I
need to dig a bit deeper into. And I think
it started back in that conversation, which would have been
(10:14):
October last year.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Isn't it interesting how we shift and change and then
we have to we happen I have to do, then
we can revisit things. And so like a process like community,
to change is in the ever evolving process like self
personal development, personal growth, healing, adapting, overcoming, whatever you want
(10:37):
to call it. It is an ever present, ongoing thing
that shifts and changes. And I don't know that fascinates me.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, we look. That's the nature of this work is
it's not linear, and it never ends, and you know
there'll be times. When I was talking at a conference
up in cansa Cutle of Togo for the Australasian Marine
Pilots Institute about life design and work life balance, and
(11:07):
I do this activity where I get people to do
this perspective line five most important things, five moderately important things,
five least important things. And I actually shared my sheet
up on the well, you know, most important, health, family connection,
purposeful work, financial security, and there was something else in
there moderately important, travel and some other bits and pieces
(11:30):
least important. The toilet roll thing wasn't fucking don't just
leave the fucking cardboard there. You give that to your
dashounds because they love that, you know, people who don't
wave to me and acknowledge me in this tiny, skinny
streets of Brunswick. When I let them through, I bought
these things up. You can see the people in the
(11:51):
room just going straight away. Fuck. Those things get me
all the time. And what I you said to them
in the end is these are the things that punch
you in the face and like and you know about
that because you're a boxer. My mess to them was,
we tend to wait to get punched in the face
or knocked out before we do something about that stuff.
(12:12):
And if you don't have people around you who were
I'm going to say prepared to give you. You know, my
parents used to just do a little flick on my
ear every now and again. The fuck that hurt, but
it was done for a reason. You mightn't have liked
it at the time. But so thanks for flicking my ear,
because I don't think you quite punched me in the face,
but you just wake me up. And that's got me
(12:33):
to where I am now about doing this thing next week.
We had our review with our business advisor this week
to myself, Allison mal and you know the other thing
for me, we had a really really successful year last year.
If you want to look at success, you know, we
talk about the material things. It was the biggest year ever,
like by a long way. But I said, I can't
(12:56):
do that again. But what I haven't been able to
do is say to Alison, what will be acceptable? Because
I'm the financial faborite and if and a bit corporate
in the brain still even after eleven years. So you go, well,
if I don't do that number again ever failed. But
when I look at where financial security sits in that
(13:19):
top five, it's number five, and my health and my
connection and my family is number one and two. And
I think those things both suffered last year because number
five was really number one.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Is it about the underlying stuff beneath, or the metaphorical
stuff beneath the idea of financial success slash security? More
so because we we all seem to be driven by
it and to it, which drives us further away from
(13:58):
the more important things, which is connection and community and people.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Well, well, so here's the thing. I've just had some
convoys recently with some clients about this. There's the tangible
and the intangible. So the tangibility of that financial pieces,
I can see it on. I can see it in HubSpot,
in our cram, I can see it in our and
our balance sheet, like it's there. It's like a KPI.
Whereas you know, do we keep a KPU? Once a
(14:26):
month the whole family gets together, we pick a theme.
I love this. Allison set this up. So it's us
and the kids and their partners, eight of us well
this Sundays. This month's theme is retro month for a meal.
So you've got to have you have starters, you have
the main and accompaniments, and then you have dessert. So
this is called the retro one. So what we're doing
(14:47):
on some people might really relate to this, and others
be like, what the hell are those? We're doing the
main Allison and I and we're cooking what's called porcupine
meat balls. And I can remember to if you wouldn't
this year two but as a kid, if we didn't
have them two nights a week, which is like a
bit of mints right up into a ball with a
bit of rice in it and fucking tomato sauce. But
(15:11):
my point is this, we don't keep a I don't
keep a KPI. Shet on how often we get together
the intangibilities of those things are more about how you
feel and not what you're measuring. And I think there's
a challenge that in that space for me, but for
all of us to go. You know, if I can't
(15:32):
if I can't measure it, I can't manage it. And
I'm just trying to eat my own dog food here
at times and go. I talk to people a lot
about the intangible stuff that then drives the tangible, and
I think I think the reason why that sits with me,
like you explained before, is it's easy to see. But
(15:54):
with the intangible stuff, I think that build up over
the year to get me into that November place of gone,
I'm disappearing at my own ass. I don't have a
KPI sheet that said, you know, I was getting a
bit burnt out, or I was getting a bit stressed,
or you know. Ultimately the goal was to The goal
wasn't the disappear of my own ass. It wasn't the KPI,
(16:16):
but but it was a feeling of a time. So
I think there's something in I think there's something in that,
But there was also the thing for me like this
earlier this week, is just asking the question and asking
for permission, and again as a financial frabic saying to Allison, well,
what's the number? She goes, this is the number, and
then I look at it and like, how oh, I
(16:39):
haven't I haven't not hit that number for about the
last seven years. So what the fuck am I? What
am I worried about? There? So it's it's an interesting
it's a real conflict. And I think this will be
part of what happens when I go through next week.
Is this conflict about what am I trying to prove?
(16:59):
What any of us trying to prove? What's acceptable? And
then what are the trade offs and what are you
prepared to trade off? And I know we've talked about
this before. It's not about what you want to do,
it's about what you don't want to do. And I
really clear I don't want to have another year like
I had last year.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And we still did wonderful things, we had holidays and stuff,
but no, not doing it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I've been I just wrote down the work on my notebook.
I just wrote down the words. That's interesting because I
was thinking, as you were talking of how much reflection
I've been doing. I've made a lot of changes to
this year, and I feel that that constant, like intrusive
thought of oh you bet not you better? You should,
(17:51):
you should say yes to more things, you should put
you should be a bit flexible there. It's like, no,
you've you've you have this year having a day off
here to do specific work, put your clients on specific days,
and don't bend and twist every time someone needs a change,
you bend over backwards to get up and make it
in there. And you know, like always saying yes to things.
(18:12):
But I've not, so I've been noticing and observing a
lot more without changing or actioning things. And from a
I guess, oh, that's interesting standpoint, when it's frustrating. It's
like I'll see where I might have an emotional reaction
to something or a bit of conflicts come up for me,
(18:35):
and I'm like, that's interesting, But also I'm in charge
of that. I feel like that, why do I feel
frustrated and angry by that? You know when really it
doesn't it doesn't need to matter, no, and we won't.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Be how I'm with this And this isn't just in
regards to your relationship with your clients, Like you picked
a really good topic here, is how how much how
much we had driven to comply, conform, to fit into whatever.
And one of the ways we do that is we
say yes. Now, that's not just in work situations, that's
(19:13):
in family situations. Certainly, I see it a lot when
I talk to my clients, particularly those are in like
volunteer community stuff like sporting clubs, and they're like, you know,
all of a sudden, I'm the president of the netball
football club because I couldn't say. And then I'll be
putting the canteen roster together, and then I'll be working
(19:35):
in the canteen and then I'm cooking the meals on
a Thursday night. And if you sort of got above
all of that stuff, the conflict between belonging but also
getting some time to yourself and being able to say, hey,
what can't I do? Because I've kept saying yes to things?
And usually the things that you're not doing then are
(19:56):
the thing that things that are in that first box,
which is what's most important to you. Lost a bit
of connection to myself, not not doing as much with
the family, seem to come home a little bit jaded
all the time, can get a bit short with the kids,
whatever it might be I can kick the dog, kick
the cat, whatever I do. And I think a lot
of it stems from, you know, the need to be
(20:20):
needed and to be wanted and to be accepted, to
feel like I'm contributing to the fear of saying no,
and what might happen to all of those things and everyone.
I think everybody goes through that at some point in time.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I just noticed something in the background. Is that is
that new? That statue of the.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
You're so it's not it's not new, So like it's
very quickly what you're talking about that people see this
in video or do they just know you're.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Going to have to describe it. I don't have to
describe That little monster behind.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Me is a Scott. This is actually an art. It's
a piece of art. This is a sculptured metal robot
which looks very much like the robot on the front
cover of my first book.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well, yeah, is it? Is it the same one?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I'm walking I'm walking through the streets of Fremantle one
Saturday morning, after having spent a week there doing work. Jeez,
before COVID and I walked past his art gallery and
this thing's steering me in the face. From him.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Shit, it looks exactly Mark's had this made.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It wasn't open at the time, so I was going
to open at ten o'clock or something, and I was
walking around pretty early, so I went back and I
like to the lady, I see that robot and this
is before I had the robot tatoo on my arm,
and I'm like, that really looks like the robot off
the front of my book. And she was a bit like, yeah, whatever, dickhead.
I said, Look, I'm just going to go and have
a chat to the financial controller because I asked her
(21:58):
what the price was and it wasn't cheap and made
by a local perf sculptor, and sure enough I got
the Okay. So old mate Frankie as we call him,
just like the other frank He he sits in my
office here. He has sat out in the lounge room
(22:19):
for a while as a as a as a sort
of a stand for pot plants. But I think he
was I got the sense that he wasn't overly happy
with that. So he's now in here with me. Yeah,
it's it's just one of those things people. Jeez, that's
just that's that's just sort of had that happen, but
you go, well, I don't know. It happens for a reason.
(22:40):
So he's I take him every now and again if
you'll come into the room in the Melbourne programs he
sits in the corner and people. So he's made out
of meddle, really is he. He looks big, you know,
he's big.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Be up to your chest, wouldn't he.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
He's probably bigger than a little Alison that you referred
to as one time you referred to.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Projected it upon me, just.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
A bit over five foot tall. And look the interesting
thing about him, he can be used and you wouldn't
do it because he'd get flogged in the day. But
the way he set up there is on the back
of there's a key and you can open up behind
his head and that that mouth there could be like
a letterbox. But no, he's he's he's near and dear
(23:28):
to me because it's sort of the business and the
robots and the humans and and you know the craziness
of how much he looks like old mate on my arm. Yeah,
you go, look at you observing things and we've even
got what about little Jerry. There's he turns one on Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Little Jerry held up in a ball, the boss.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Poor little bugger, he's I shouldn't say the poor little bugger.
I say I feel for the others in the family,
the other four, because he's come in like an absolute hurricane,
Old Jerry.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Do he get all the attention?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It gets a bit, not all of it, But he's
coped the cup of floggings because I think they just
had when he first came in. And this is maybe
a lesson here for people when you first get introduced
to a new group of people, don't do what Jerry did.
He just ran around and terrorized them all.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Jerry's a dog, by the way, one.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Year old piebald, long haired, miniature daccent. Yes, so there
you go. Hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
You mentioned something that we were going to discuss potentially
before and I can't remember something success? What was that topic?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
And not my not my idea. I'm going to I'm
going to I'm going to give credit where credits due.
But it's something that now and I'm talking to a
lot of people about and everyone should think about this
and the difference between what I call interrogating success and
celebrating success.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So I was talking to working with a client up
in New South Wales, and before we work with the client,
each of the team members had it half an hour
with me and we're just having a chat about things,
and a guy with number of dave a great fella.
He just said, look, I just wonder if we'd be
better off if we interrogated our success more. And I'm like, wow,
(25:28):
that you mean celebrating success and he's like, no, I reckon,
there's a bit more to it than that. What come
to mind for me at the time, one of the
things were very good at all of us, whether it's
personal stuff, work stuff, whatever it is. If we do
ninety nine percent of the things well and one percent
not so well, we interrogate failure like it's a real commission,
(25:51):
so that one thing will you know, lessons learned. Some
people call it, others call it the post review, whatever
it is. But we tend not to focus on what's
gone well. And then this idea of the celebration of
success versus the interrogation of success. Most of what I
hear in organizational life is oh, we celebrated our success.
(26:17):
Now that was usually in the form of a morning tea.
And this is still nice because there was a coming
together in an acknowledgment. Cupcakes, cup of tea, your favorite
late whatever it might be. You sort of get together,
you have a bit of a chat, someone says a
few words, everyone claps, and then off we go. Now,
(26:37):
I think there's a place for that as an acknowledgment.
But the interrogation of success, when I think about that,
I'm thinking more of this is more forensic, this sort
of stuff. So, so from some really cool words from Dave,
whether I've got to now is created a little template
which is for people to interrogate forensically, interrogate the success
(27:03):
of the work they've done. Now, what we tend to
do here if we go back to the tangible and
the intangible, the things we can see on a KPI
sheet and the things that we feel more. The way
I've breaken this up is into four columns. So the
first column is what's the thing. What was the program?
What was the projective work? What was it that you
(27:24):
were doing? Goes in the first column. The second column
is interrogating this success from a technical perspective. So what
were the processes, what were the procedures, how did we
follow what did we do really well? Around the more
technical aspects of what we're doing, because those things are
really important. If you don't have processes and you don't
(27:45):
have some of that sort of direction and some order
and things, that will be chaos. But we're usually really
good at capturing that stuff. And then the next column
is what were the human factors? And this is the
intangible stuff and getting people to start to think about
what happened between us. I love there's a great ted
talk by a lady called Margaret Hefferan about chickens called
(28:10):
It's time to Forget the pecking Order at Work, and
she talks about I don't give too much away, people
should will go and watch this. She talks about the
difference between great teams and good teams. And one of
the things she talks about in there is it's not
just about the bricks, It's also about the mortar. And
(28:31):
the bricks are what I've talked about first the technical stuff,
but to hold the bricks together, you need the mortar
and the mortars of the people stuff. It's what happens
between the people. So I would encourage people, whether it
be a whether it's something for them personally or it's
something in their work, is starting to think about like
(28:53):
properly forensically interrogating it so that you pick up the
things that have go on well and you can replicate them.
The fourth column is simply called the outcome. So what happened?
What happened when we had this project? What did we
do well technically in the bricks? What did we how
did we come together and create that mortar to hold
(29:15):
the bricks together? That's people and people who are listened
to this will realize that we've done some good work,
but it was hard because the mortar wasn't The mortar
didn't hold. It held for a bit, but then it
crumbled and then the bricks all fell fell down. So
I want people to start to think about again, compliments
(29:37):
and cutos toda David, to think about, do you spend
too much time on the one to two to three
percent that didn't go right interrogating failure, and not enough
time on the ninety nine to ninety seven to ninety
nine percent of things that went really well in interrogating success. Now,
(29:58):
we're not hard wired to do that. You know that
we're looking for danger, we're looking for survivor, we're looking
for things that might make us look bad. But there's
a lot of research out there now to say if
you focus on the things that have gone well, particularly
the mortar things, what happens between people. You focus more
on that, people will do more of it. It will
(30:19):
become the natural thing, and then the bricks hold up.
So it's a really interesting conversation to have in a
business world because we're not built that way. And also
from a personal perspective, I guess as we all grew up,
(30:40):
we very rarely we might have been said good game,
good job, well done, but that's like maybe a bit
of cupcaking stuff, rather than tell me good job mark
as a twelve year old playing cricket because of this
thing that you did, like be more specific, Am I'm
(31:01):
making any sense to you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I love that, like, because there is a difference between
just good job and the I guess the dopamine you
get from that. It's like, oh that feels good. That
feels good, but you're no better off for it. Really,
it's not sustainable. Why was it good? When people when
people reach out about particular episodes, they're like, that was
(31:25):
such a great I'm like, oh what about it? What
about it? Did you enjoy? Was it the information was
it was it the style of conversation like it's because
for me, I feel chuffed when people reach out and
go that was so awesome. But I feel actually like
I can get some value myself for growth and replication
(31:46):
if I know what it is that somebody liked, or
if they just or if they just want to invest
in the relationship and what to be like, Hey, I
liked that. I've got no feedback, but I just felt
like reaching out and connecting with you on it and
like that.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I think it's a really good and it's a great
time to get curious. Often when people will do that
to me, I'll send them back a note and hey,
I just can you just tell me a little bit more?
What was it in particular that you really liked about that? Oh,
I might be hey, if we're not interrogating success and
they're coming back and get on, hey that was really shit,
Well can you tell me why that might have been?
But I think we've got to open ourselves up, because
(32:23):
it's great to be told that I really like your work,
but I actually think it's incumbent upon people like us
to go back and challenge those people to go will
tell me a bit more about that because sometimes not
Sometimes it can be just like yeah, I just want
to say that because you know, I want to feel
(32:43):
like I can build that relationship. I think there needs
to be in order to build a good strong, thick
line or another person like build strong relationships. My view
is this is that you've got to be prepared to
share a little bit more. You've also got to be
prepared to be curious enough if you haven't shared more,
(33:03):
if you're the receiver of the feedback to ask the question,
tell me more. I like those three words, tell me more.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's also a valuable prompt for them because I don't know,
we don't always think about why. And then like someone
might say that to me and I walk away and goo,
good question. Why why did that land with me? And
then you know there's those tiny little bits of introspection
that you learn from.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. I agree, And look there's also a I think
there's just a there's a laziness. I think too well done. Yeah, yeah,
I really liked what you did. I you know, fill
the gap in help someone to make sense because you
(33:50):
know that data. You keep talking to people. That's why
I love coaching for strengths stuff there's a place for
all sorts of coaching, but coaching for strengths in the workplace.
Talk about you continue to coach for strengths, help someone
with their career, kill that something's going to stuff their career,
but you'll see that they'll get it. You'll get like
a twenty five percent uplift in their effort and productivity
(34:13):
if you continue to focus in on the things they
do well. And as you said before about you, we
never end we incrementally improve at that thing, but knowing
that we're going to be acknowledged and appreciated for it,
it keeps it front of mind for us as well.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I love the clarity around things too, like what what
what am I good at? And why do people say that?
And what makes that? And how is it better? And
what do I enjoy? Like there's so many and maybe
I've landed in this place because of all of the
conversations and curiosity and hunger I have for understanding people
(34:52):
in the world and the outcomes and what And sometimes
it almost makes my head explode because they go, well,
there's so many aspects to everything, correlation and causation of
everything that it's and answer doesn't exist and I often
find these days my mind goes straight to all of
(35:13):
the tiny little nuances that might exist outside of the
realm of what someone's presenting. And now I've lost my
completely lost my train of thought of exactly what I
was going to say about that, so.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
That it'll come back to you at some point in
kind you've been But know what, I don't believe you
are chasing perfection. So a good example of why you
shouldn't chase perfection.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Oh well, I was talking about the idea of clarity
and understanding. I started the course yesterday and and for
speaking because I was finally like, I want to I
want to learn more about what I don't know, Like
when I stepped into the world of podcasting that I
knew nothing about. I did it blind and naive, and
I was like, I'll do this. I don't know how
what it is or how people do it, but it
(36:03):
seems like, you know, I love communication, conversation and connection
and this will give me all of that and experience.
So started this course, and what I really enjoy about
it it is picking apart my own thoughts and ideas
and getting and understanding well, actually, like who am I
(36:26):
as a speaker? Slash content maker or provider, like what
what are people? Where do I land? What is my
philosophy that people connect with both their perspective of mine
And some of the little activities we did just brought
so much clarity and it was like, oh, it's really
(36:47):
nice to have a framework that's just me. Like there
was they went across like speaker archetypes, which I always
think that these questionnaires of personality profiles and everything, so
it can be I'm like, oh, you just answer questions
and then you're this, and sometimes it's I just think
(37:08):
it's hard to maybe trust. But this we got these
speaker archetypes and then it kind of talked about and
it just landed and I went, oh, that's really nice
to know you have this central platform of going oh,
I'm so I don't have to be like that or
them or what this person says or how they say
(37:29):
it or do it. And it was nice.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I like that, that's great, and look, I think the
big thing there is Look I call it corporate crystal ball,
and we get people and we get them profiled, then
we put them in a box, but we don't talk.
Usually I say the lazy leadership consultant gets you to
feel that out before you come into the room, and
then you spend about forty minutes on it, just to
(37:52):
fucking fill some time in and then they put you in.
Oh well you're you're a high d mark, so well,
don't know how you're going to get on with Tiff.
He's a high see and you don't underst and why
things are going on now, And all of a sudden
we're in a.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Box deaf, not a high sea mate. I'm so far
from it, I.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
See, can't get out of that box. And I guess
my point is this, if there's if we take away
the laziness of filling some time and we do it,
and we give some reason as to why we're doing it,
so you who are going through this really important program
can make sense of it. Because there was a what
(38:26):
I heard in you say, then here we go again.
But it sounds like they've been able to help you
make some sense about why you're doing that activity, which
which goes deeper than the laziness of what I think
happens in a lot of these programs that we go to.
It's like just get them in the room, get their money,
and do the work. Now, let me ask you this question. So,
(38:49):
how many candles on your birthday cake? Now?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Very soon, in under a month, there'll be forty two. Wait,
so they have a fibergate on and when I'm on
them out.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
So google this up right now? How many days has
it been since your birth? The day you were born,
your day to birth? How many days has it been?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Days old? I'm asking chat GPT because they're my vest
mint nice shadows me and shadows shadows tells me everything.
I am fifteen thousand, four hundred and thirty days.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Old, So let's have a talk about this for a moment.
So how many days old?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Fifteen thousand, four hundred and thirty And.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
When did you start the program?
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yesterday?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So you were fifteen thousand, four hundred and twenty nine
days old. Then yeah, yep, at fifteen thousand, four hundred
and twenty nine days old, you've you've started a new thing.
M The reason I want to talk about this, I
think sometimes we'll be like, well, you know, I'm going
(40:11):
forty two or I'm fifty eight, and like there's nothing
they know new things for me to try, and I can't.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
The way that I'm a world class pianist too, By
the way the last year class, what pianist the end.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I'm glad that you've got the three sort of syllables
in there.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Sometimes I act like a bit of a penis, though
you said it.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Up me one of the ways for me to cope.
On March seventh this year, which was the day of
Zoey's wedding, my youngest got married to lovely Tommy. There
a beautiful couple was I said it. I went to myself,
how long have I been on this earth and this
is the first time I'm going to do this thing.
This is a new thing for me, and I sort
(40:56):
of kicked off my speech, said, look, one of the
reasons I was going down this I was so frigging
emotionally rollercoasting that day out playing golf with the boys
in the morning, felt oh good, every now and again
I'll have this like, how the fuck am I going
to be this afternoon? I spent about an hour and
a half to if in between everyone leaving to go
to the wedding and me hanging out where the girls
(41:17):
were to than be in the car listening to a
lot of Bob Dylan, but also contemplating stupid things like
how many days old am I when I'm going to
do a very new thing today? And I asked the
question at the wedding like I wanted people to think
about when was the last time you did something brand new?
As I said, I'm now twenty thousand and five hundred
(41:40):
and something days old and today I'm doing a brand
new thing. And the brand new thing I was doing,
I said, I get to walk my beautiful daughter down
the aisle on one of the happiest days of her life.
I don't think we think about this enough. Just get
people to think about it out like what stops you
(42:04):
from doing something new whatever it might be. But and
it doesn't have to be new at work or whatever.
But I just want people to think about that. TIF.
I think it's now you've started something new? Yeah, ever
done it before? I think there's a level of excitement
(42:25):
that comes with that. There's absolutely I said, I was
excitedly terrified on the day because you know, you're sort
of like, oh, am I going to cry and I'm
not well. In the end, I cried and I walked
it down the aisle with Allison. But who cares, Like
it doesn't really matter, does it?
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
No, So I just think that's something for us to
all think about, like you're not you're never too old,
and what's the thing that you want to do that's
new and maybe what's the thing that you might even
be it's not your choice. It wasn't my choice to
do that new thing, but you still want to do it.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
One of my favorite weeks on the ten week coaching program,
I'm just finished week nine of the second one at
the moment. One of my favorite weeks is the topic
of and it always I feel like it kind of
blindsides people. They're never expecting it and they're like, oh oh,
and it's fun, So how much fun? Like do you
(43:25):
plan this simple question do you plan fun for your life?
Is how often do you plan for Mark to have
fun for the sake of fun, novelty, just for the
sake of it, just to feel your soul? And then
we go into the science of fun and the fact
that it's very bloody selfish and to not have fun
(43:49):
because then you're a shitty version of yourself taking that
shitty version into interactions with other people. Like it's just
such a simple thing, but just the question, the look
on people face is when I first asked that question,
is always oh oh fu a why are we talking
about fun in this kind of in this course about
(44:10):
you know, mindset and getting better and optimization and blah
blah blah. What do you mean fun? There's no time
for that. I'm busy trying to get better and.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Fix things and not looking like I'm being selfish.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah, even if you take those last three letters off
that word, as we always say, self time and having
a bit of fun and doing that is is important
if you're going to be able to show up as
best you can in other settings, you're better find some
ways to have fun.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, and what then the trick is always I reckon.
There's there's a bit of a balance for novelty, Like
novelty is a part of fun. And what's difficult is
we lean so much on structure and routine to implement things,
so it's this ever evolving thing. It's like, oh, that's cool,
you can implement fun, But once that's implemented and becomes
(45:01):
a routine, then you're back to square one.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Back to that thing of the tangibility and the intangibility,
Like you know, you can't it's hard to plan fun.
Sometimes fun happens in the moment, Like we're going to
we've got the Comedy Festival on here now, so we're going.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
To see Luke McGregor.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Bloody, Hello, we are going to McGregor. But we're going
to you know, we're going to like over five nights
going to different shows and like that's sort of planned
fun because you know, you come out of that feelingly good,
but there'll be some unplanned fun in that as well.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yeah, yeah, well I love that. Yeah, I'm going a
few shows this year.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
How we do when you're going to get going, don't you?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, I've got another podcast shortly, but I want to
keep chanting. It's not fair. It's not fair. Mark. These
don't disappear for another few months.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's been four months. We'll catch up again, I'm sure
before four months is up, and have another conversation and
we might interrogate some of the success we've had over
the time.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
It sounds good, right, like got well, she said, it's
now never.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I got fighting in my blood. Got it to your
goody cost, gotta gotta cost, got it to
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff. This is role with the punches and we're
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(00:29):
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reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Mark Lebaska, I thought
(00:53):
you were never coming back to the show where you've been, bro,
I feel.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Very new us today. This is like starting all over again,
so we might need to see if find some things
in common and just connect a bit before we start
to talk to each other years ago. Yeah, well, how
have I been? I like not to use the word good,
how have I been? I've been? Jeez, what's the word?
(01:25):
Running around? A bit like a blue ass fly, but
with good things going on? Good?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I feel like it's interesting that our very last
podcast would flipped the flipped roles and i'd you know,
put you, put you in the hot seat, and then
you fucking disappeared off the show for a few years.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
The ship out of me, mate, and a shout out
to my brother in law's partner Jane, who sent me
a lovely notes and listening to that podcast you did
with Tiffany and it was bloody, full on and good
on you for saying what you did. And I'm thinking,
oh wow, but I listened to that. I actually listened
to it when I was on the on the bus
(02:10):
traveling around Sri Lanka because I'd gone off to Shreelank.
I listened to the whole thing and it was like, wow,
we no wonder you're on holidays mate. I reckon, and
I reckon it took me. It was about thirteen day holiday.
I reckon it took me because I'd finished in towns
Well on the twenties. On the twenty first. In November
(02:30):
twenty second, I was catching a flight back to Melbourne.
Twenty third, we were flying to Sri Lanka. I don't
reckon till about the twenty well. I actually yeah, later
that month, i'd actually felt like I was on holidays.
I think it was decompressing still, so I was running.
I was running around like a blue ass flight that stage,
(02:51):
but disappearing at my own ass at the same time.
So things feel a bit better. Then we've had a
bit go on. We've had a I end up taking
two months off, by the way, so I didn't go
back to work till February.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And well done.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
And then our youngest got married in March. We we
can have a bit of a chat about that if
you like. That was quite interesting, and then we sort
of back into it again. And now I've got a
bit of time at home and it's interesting because we've
still got a good bit of work on, but it's
not as hectic as it was last year. And then
your little voice goes will come on you should be
(03:27):
doing more, and I'm like, no, we're not. Really. Just
enjoy the fact that you want more time in Melbourne
and you're in Melbourne. So yeah, it's been been an
interesting little ride and I have missed these and I'm
looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I want to know what was it like for you
listening to that episode of yourself, Like was it different
in any way? Like sometimes we're not because you often do.
We often have those conversations, but quite often I'm in
the hot seat, and when I listen back, I enjoy
(04:03):
listening back because it's almost, well it's not almost. It's
a bloody coaching session. Or sometimes you'll ask some pointy
questions or you'll probe a little bit, and I love it,
and I love re listening just because I sometimes I
perceive things differently around myself, or I come up with
new questions to ask myself. What was your experience listening back?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So, first of all, thank you, because it was a
in some respects of coaching session. I reckon for me,
what didn't happen when I was listening to it. There
wasn't any shame or fuck did I say that? Or
should have I said that? It was like, no, this
was a point in time where I had some choices
(04:50):
to make. They were you cannot talk about it, and
you can internalize it and we know what happens with
that sort of stuff, or you can respect the help
that you're getting from someone else to create a supposed
to do that. So look, I was sort of sitting
there going, yeah, this is pretty cool. I'm really happy
(05:13):
that I'm saying these things. They may some people may think, oh,
geez mate, you're supposed to be good at this stuff
and you sound like you're fuck an unraveling yourself. Well,
thank you. And then secondly, it's just a reinforcement, you know,
when you're in when we're in these conversations, I think
that I'm here and I'm present and all that, but
(05:35):
there's nothing better than listening back to it. And I
think I've listened to it three or four times since then.
It's not just like I better listen to it because
you know, I want to check in on what I said,
just in case I get any blowback from anywhere. It's like, no, no, no,
I go back and listen to it again. In fact,
i'm doing an immunity to change. Next week with someone's
(05:57):
taking me through it, I'll have a listen to it
again because I think for it's like a Seinfeld episode.
To me, I've watched Seinfeld episodes twenty times, but I
always picked something new up. So it was a great
look for me. It was a cognitively releasing conversation, and
(06:19):
the more that I listened to it, the more that
you feel that cognitive load reducing. But also you then
look back and go, how was it helpful? Well, very much.
At that time I made the decision. I was sitting
on the bus to go, you're not going back to
(06:40):
work till February, and I didn't. Don't you excellent?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Good? I love that. I love it, and I reckon
like coaching wouldn't exist as a thing if we didn't. All,
including coaches, require a different perspective at times, and you can't.
I mean, there's ways, there's different ways to get a
(07:08):
different perspective, and definitely going for me, that traveling experience
was a huge shifting perspective. That's an immediate one. You
get somewhere else and you're like, oh wow, I'm outside
of the echo chamber of the world I lived in,
and now I see and feel and understand everything very differently.
And I think even as coaches, we can know things,
(07:31):
but we're inside the things we know. And so that's
and like I said, when I am in the conversations
with you answering the questions, I have a different experience
than when I and it could be the same day.
I could listen to it the same day or the
same week and hear it differently. As an observer of
(07:53):
the conversation when I'm not in the moment. I went
back not that long ago and listened to the very
first episode with doctor Bill, who's now my therapist, and
when that would have been good two or three, a
couple of years ago, I guess, or three years ago.
And when I listened back now to some of the
(08:15):
really pointy parts of that conversation where he was probing,
I was listening and I was just cringing, going, ah,
you didn't. I didn't feel at the time like I
was deliberately dodging questions. But when I listen back now,
it almost makes me cringe how much it felt like
(08:37):
I could see myself square squirming where that wasn't the
experience in the moment so interesting?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yep, yep. And it's a very different experience to I think.
The first thing with all of this stuff that we do,
one of the hardest things early just to digress a little,
was just to start to hear your own voice. I
never listened to you, but that's a very surface level,
ego driven thing. You sound like a like Je's mate.
(09:06):
You've got a bit of a lisp there, and you
say you've got Bogan words but then it's like, oh,
let's really get past that and get to what's actually
being said rather than the way that it's coming out.
So there's always that look. For me, it was it's
a big thanks because you chose I think we'd had
a conversation and you'd run me and you're like, you
(09:31):
are right, and I went no, not really, and then
you're right, right right, and then you went right, I'm
going to do something about that. So there's a huge
thank you to you for that too, because one of
the easy things for any of us to do when
we get some engrossed in our own shit is to
choose to look away when we notice something with someone
(09:51):
else that we have built a relationship with. So that
was a really important time for me, and I think
it's leading into this immunity to change. I'm going to
do with that next week. Alex is based in Perth.
I said, I just sent her a message and said, look,
I need to do it. I see at the moment
because I reckon, there's some shit going on that I
need to dig a bit deeper into. And I think
it started back in that conversation, which would have been
(10:14):
October last year.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Isn't it interesting how we shift and change and then
we have to we happen I have to do, then
we can revisit things. And so like a process like community,
to change is in the ever evolving process like self
personal development, personal growth, healing, adapting, overcoming, whatever you want
(10:37):
to call it. It is an ever present, ongoing thing
that shifts and changes. And I don't know that fascinates me.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, we look. That's the nature of this work is
it's not linear, and it never ends, and you know
there'll be times. When I was talking at a conference
up in cansa Cutle of Togo for the Australasian Marine
Pilots Institute about life design and work life balance, and
(11:07):
I do this activity where I get people to do
this perspective line five most important things, five moderately important things,
five least important things. And I actually shared my sheet
up on the well, you know, most important, health, family connection,
purposeful work, financial security, and there was something else in
there moderately important, travel and some other bits and pieces
(11:30):
least important. The toilet roll thing wasn't fucking don't just
leave the fucking cardboard there. You give that to your
dashounds because they love that, you know, people who don't
wave to me and acknowledge me in this tiny, skinny
streets of Brunswick. When I let them through, I bought
these things up. You can see the people in the
(11:51):
room just going straight away. Fuck. Those things get me
all the time. And what I you said to them
in the end is these are the things that punch
you in the face and like and you know about
that because you're a boxer. My mess to them was,
we tend to wait to get punched in the face
or knocked out before we do something about that stuff.
(12:12):
And if you don't have people around you who were
I'm going to say prepared to give you. You know, my
parents used to just do a little flick on my
ear every now and again. The fuck that hurt, but
it was done for a reason. You mightn't have liked
it at the time. But so thanks for flicking my ear,
because I don't think you quite punched me in the face,
but you just wake me up. And that's got me
(12:33):
to where I am now about doing this thing next week.
We had our review with our business advisor this week
to myself, Allison mal and you know the other thing
for me, we had a really really successful year last year.
If you want to look at success, you know, we
talk about the material things. It was the biggest year ever,
like by a long way. But I said, I can't
(12:56):
do that again. But what I haven't been able to
do is say to Alison, what will be acceptable? Because
I'm the financial faborite and if and a bit corporate
in the brain still even after eleven years. So you go, well,
if I don't do that number again ever failed. But
when I look at where financial security sits in that
(13:19):
top five, it's number five, and my health and my
connection and my family is number one and two. And
I think those things both suffered last year because number
five was really number one.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Is it about the underlying stuff beneath, or the metaphorical
stuff beneath the idea of financial success slash security? More
so because we we all seem to be driven by
it and to it, which drives us further away from
(13:58):
the more important things, which is connection and community and people.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Well, well, so here's the thing. I've just had some
convoys recently with some clients about this. There's the tangible
and the intangible. So the tangibility of that financial pieces,
I can see it on. I can see it in HubSpot,
in our cram, I can see it in our and
our balance sheet, like it's there. It's like a KPI.
Whereas you know, do we keep a KPU? Once a
(14:26):
month the whole family gets together, we pick a theme.
I love this. Allison set this up. So it's us
and the kids and their partners, eight of us well
this Sundays. This month's theme is retro month for a meal.
So you've got to have you have starters, you have
the main and accompaniments, and then you have dessert. So
this is called the retro one. So what we're doing
(14:47):
on some people might really relate to this, and others
be like, what the hell are those? We're doing the
main Allison and I and we're cooking what's called porcupine
meat balls. And I can remember to if you wouldn't
this year two but as a kid, if we didn't
have them two nights a week, which is like a
bit of mints right up into a ball with a
bit of rice in it and fucking tomato sauce. But
(15:11):
my point is this, we don't keep a I don't
keep a KPI. Shet on how often we get together
the intangibilities of those things are more about how you
feel and not what you're measuring. And I think there's
a challenge that in that space for me, but for
all of us to go. You know, if I can't
(15:32):
if I can't measure it, I can't manage it. And
I'm just trying to eat my own dog food here
at times and go. I talk to people a lot
about the intangible stuff that then drives the tangible, and
I think I think the reason why that sits with me,
like you explained before, is it's easy to see. But
(15:54):
with the intangible stuff, I think that build up over
the year to get me into that November place of gone,
I'm disappearing at my own ass. I don't have a
KPI sheet that said, you know, I was getting a
bit burnt out, or I was getting a bit stressed,
or you know. Ultimately the goal was to The goal
wasn't the disappear of my own ass. It wasn't the KPI,
(16:16):
but but it was a feeling of a time. So
I think there's something in I think there's something in that,
But there was also the thing for me like this
earlier this week, is just asking the question and asking
for permission, and again as a financial frabic saying to Allison, well,
what's the number? She goes, this is the number, and
then I look at it and like, how oh, I
(16:39):
haven't I haven't not hit that number for about the
last seven years. So what the fuck am I? What
am I worried about? There? So it's it's an interesting
it's a real conflict. And I think this will be
part of what happens when I go through next week.
Is this conflict about what am I trying to prove?
(16:59):
What any of us trying to prove? What's acceptable? And
then what are the trade offs and what are you
prepared to trade off? And I know we've talked about
this before. It's not about what you want to do,
it's about what you don't want to do. And I
really clear I don't want to have another year like
I had last year.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And we still did wonderful things, we had holidays and stuff,
but no, not doing it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I've been I just wrote down the work on my notebook.
I just wrote down the words. That's interesting because I
was thinking, as you were talking of how much reflection
I've been doing. I've made a lot of changes to
this year, and I feel that that constant, like intrusive
thought of oh you bet not you better? You should,
(17:51):
you should say yes to more things, you should put
you should be a bit flexible there. It's like, no,
you've you've you have this year having a day off
here to do specific work, put your clients on specific days,
and don't bend and twist every time someone needs a change,
you bend over backwards to get up and make it
in there. And you know, like always saying yes to things.
(18:12):
But I've not, so I've been noticing and observing a
lot more without changing or actioning things. And from a
I guess, oh, that's interesting standpoint, when it's frustrating. It's
like I'll see where I might have an emotional reaction
to something or a bit of conflicts come up for me,
(18:35):
and I'm like, that's interesting, But also I'm in charge
of that. I feel like that, why do I feel
frustrated and angry by that? You know when really it
doesn't it doesn't need to matter, no, and we won't.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Be how I'm with this And this isn't just in
regards to your relationship with your clients, Like you picked
a really good topic here, is how how much how
much we had driven to comply, conform, to fit into whatever.
And one of the ways we do that is we
say yes. Now, that's not just in work situations, that's
(19:13):
in family situations. Certainly, I see it a lot when
I talk to my clients, particularly those are in like
volunteer community stuff like sporting clubs, and they're like, you know,
all of a sudden, I'm the president of the netball
football club because I couldn't say. And then I'll be
putting the canteen roster together, and then I'll be working
(19:35):
in the canteen and then I'm cooking the meals on
a Thursday night. And if you sort of got above
all of that stuff, the conflict between belonging but also
getting some time to yourself and being able to say, hey,
what can't I do? Because I've kept saying yes to things?
And usually the things that you're not doing then are
(19:56):
the thing that things that are in that first box,
which is what's most important to you. Lost a bit
of connection to myself, not not doing as much with
the family, seem to come home a little bit jaded
all the time, can get a bit short with the kids,
whatever it might be I can kick the dog, kick
the cat, whatever I do. And I think a lot
of it stems from, you know, the need to be
(20:20):
needed and to be wanted and to be accepted, to
feel like I'm contributing to the fear of saying no,
and what might happen to all of those things and everyone.
I think everybody goes through that at some point in time.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I just noticed something in the background. Is that is
that new? That statue of the.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
You're so it's not it's not new, So like it's
very quickly what you're talking about that people see this
in video or do they just know you're.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Going to have to describe it. I don't have to
describe That little monster behind.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Me is a Scott. This is actually an art. It's
a piece of art. This is a sculptured metal robot
which looks very much like the robot on the front
cover of my first book.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well, yeah, is it? Is it the same one?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I'm walking I'm walking through the streets of Fremantle one
Saturday morning, after having spent a week there doing work. Jeez,
before COVID and I walked past his art gallery and
this thing's steering me in the face. From him.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Shit, it looks exactly Mark's had this made.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It wasn't open at the time, so I was going
to open at ten o'clock or something, and I was
walking around pretty early, so I went back and I
like to the lady, I see that robot and this
is before I had the robot tatoo on my arm,
and I'm like, that really looks like the robot off
the front of my book. And she was a bit like, yeah, whatever, dickhead.
I said, Look, I'm just going to go and have
a chat to the financial controller because I asked her
(21:58):
what the price was and it wasn't cheap and made
by a local perf sculptor, and sure enough I got
the Okay. So old mate Frankie as we call him,
just like the other frank He he sits in my
office here. He has sat out in the lounge room
(22:19):
for a while as a as a as a sort
of a stand for pot plants. But I think he
was I got the sense that he wasn't overly happy
with that. So he's now in here with me. Yeah,
it's it's just one of those things people. Jeez, that's
just that's that's just sort of had that happen, but
you go, well, I don't know. It happens for a reason.
(22:40):
So he's I take him every now and again if
you'll come into the room in the Melbourne programs he
sits in the corner and people. So he's made out
of meddle, really is he. He looks big, you know,
he's big.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Be up to your chest, wouldn't he.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
He's probably bigger than a little Alison that you referred
to as one time you referred to.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Projected it upon me, just.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
A bit over five foot tall. And look the interesting
thing about him, he can be used and you wouldn't
do it because he'd get flogged in the day. But
the way he set up there is on the back
of there's a key and you can open up behind
his head and that that mouth there could be like
a letterbox. But no, he's he's he's near and dear
(23:28):
to me because it's sort of the business and the
robots and the humans and and you know the craziness
of how much he looks like old mate on my arm. Yeah,
you go, look at you observing things and we've even
got what about little Jerry. There's he turns one on Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Little Jerry held up in a ball, the boss.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Poor little bugger, he's I shouldn't say the poor little bugger.
I say I feel for the others in the family,
the other four, because he's come in like an absolute hurricane,
Old Jerry.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Do he get all the attention?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It gets a bit, not all of it, But he's
coped the cup of floggings because I think they just
had when he first came in. And this is maybe
a lesson here for people when you first get introduced
to a new group of people, don't do what Jerry did.
He just ran around and terrorized them all.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Jerry's a dog, by the way, one.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Year old piebald, long haired, miniature daccent. Yes, so there
you go. Hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
You mentioned something that we were going to discuss potentially
before and I can't remember something success? What was that topic?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
And not my not my idea. I'm going to I'm
going to I'm going to give credit where credits due.
But it's something that now and I'm talking to a
lot of people about and everyone should think about this
and the difference between what I call interrogating success and
celebrating success.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So I was talking to working with a client up
in New South Wales, and before we work with the client,
each of the team members had it half an hour
with me and we're just having a chat about things,
and a guy with number of dave a great fella.
He just said, look, I just wonder if we'd be
better off if we interrogated our success more. And I'm like, wow,
(25:28):
that you mean celebrating success and he's like, no, I reckon,
there's a bit more to it than that. What come
to mind for me at the time, one of the
things were very good at all of us, whether it's
personal stuff, work stuff, whatever it is. If we do
ninety nine percent of the things well and one percent
not so well, we interrogate failure like it's a real commission,
(25:51):
so that one thing will you know, lessons learned. Some
people call it, others call it the post review, whatever
it is. But we tend not to focus on what's
gone well. And then this idea of the celebration of
success versus the interrogation of success. Most of what I
hear in organizational life is oh, we celebrated our success.
(26:17):
Now that was usually in the form of a morning tea.
And this is still nice because there was a coming
together in an acknowledgment. Cupcakes, cup of tea, your favorite
late whatever it might be. You sort of get together,
you have a bit of a chat, someone says a
few words, everyone claps, and then off we go. Now,
(26:37):
I think there's a place for that as an acknowledgment.
But the interrogation of success, when I think about that,
I'm thinking more of this is more forensic, this sort
of stuff. So, so from some really cool words from Dave,
whether I've got to now is created a little template
which is for people to interrogate forensically, interrogate the success
(27:03):
of the work they've done. Now, what we tend to
do here if we go back to the tangible and
the intangible, the things we can see on a KPI
sheet and the things that we feel more. The way
I've breaken this up is into four columns. So the
first column is what's the thing. What was the program?
What was the projective work? What was it that you
(27:24):
were doing? Goes in the first column. The second column
is interrogating this success from a technical perspective. So what
were the processes, what were the procedures, how did we
follow what did we do really well? Around the more
technical aspects of what we're doing, because those things are
really important. If you don't have processes and you don't
(27:45):
have some of that sort of direction and some order
and things, that will be chaos. But we're usually really
good at capturing that stuff. And then the next column
is what were the human factors? And this is the
intangible stuff and getting people to start to think about
what happened between us. I love there's a great ted
talk by a lady called Margaret Hefferan about chickens called
(28:10):
It's time to Forget the pecking Order at Work, and
she talks about I don't give too much away, people
should will go and watch this. She talks about the
difference between great teams and good teams. And one of
the things she talks about in there is it's not
just about the bricks, It's also about the mortar. And
(28:31):
the bricks are what I've talked about first the technical stuff,
but to hold the bricks together, you need the mortar
and the mortars of the people stuff. It's what happens
between the people. So I would encourage people, whether it
be a whether it's something for them personally or it's
something in their work, is starting to think about like
(28:53):
properly forensically interrogating it so that you pick up the
things that have go on well and you can replicate them.
The fourth column is simply called the outcome. So what happened?
What happened when we had this project? What did we
do well technically in the bricks? What did we how
did we come together and create that mortar to hold
(29:15):
the bricks together? That's people and people who are listened
to this will realize that we've done some good work,
but it was hard because the mortar wasn't The mortar
didn't hold. It held for a bit, but then it
crumbled and then the bricks all fell fell down. So
I want people to start to think about again, compliments
(29:37):
and cutos toda David, to think about, do you spend
too much time on the one to two to three
percent that didn't go right interrogating failure, and not enough
time on the ninety nine to ninety seven to ninety
nine percent of things that went really well in interrogating success. Now,
(29:58):
we're not hard wired to do that. You know that
we're looking for danger, we're looking for survivor, we're looking
for things that might make us look bad. But there's
a lot of research out there now to say if
you focus on the things that have gone well, particularly
the mortar things, what happens between people. You focus more
on that, people will do more of it. It will
(30:19):
become the natural thing, and then the bricks hold up.
So it's a really interesting conversation to have in a
business world because we're not built that way. And also
from a personal perspective, I guess as we all grew up,
(30:40):
we very rarely we might have been said good game,
good job, well done, but that's like maybe a bit
of cupcaking stuff, rather than tell me good job mark
as a twelve year old playing cricket because of this
thing that you did, like be more specific, Am I'm
(31:01):
making any sense to you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I love that, like, because there is a difference between
just good job and the I guess the dopamine you
get from that. It's like, oh that feels good. That
feels good, but you're no better off for it. Really,
it's not sustainable. Why was it good? When people when
people reach out about particular episodes, they're like, that was
(31:25):
such a great I'm like, oh what about it? What
about it? Did you enjoy? Was it the information was
it was it the style of conversation like it's because
for me, I feel chuffed when people reach out and
go that was so awesome. But I feel actually like
I can get some value myself for growth and replication
(31:46):
if I know what it is that somebody liked, or
if they just or if they just want to invest
in the relationship and what to be like, Hey, I
liked that. I've got no feedback, but I just felt
like reaching out and connecting with you on it and
like that.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I think it's a really good and it's a great
time to get curious. Often when people will do that
to me, I'll send them back a note and hey,
I just can you just tell me a little bit more?
What was it in particular that you really liked about that? Oh,
I might be hey, if we're not interrogating success and
they're coming back and get on, hey that was really shit,
Well can you tell me why that might have been?
But I think we've got to open ourselves up, because
(32:23):
it's great to be told that I really like your work,
but I actually think it's incumbent upon people like us
to go back and challenge those people to go will
tell me a bit more about that because sometimes not
Sometimes it can be just like yeah, I just want
to say that because you know, I want to feel
(32:43):
like I can build that relationship. I think there needs
to be in order to build a good strong, thick
line or another person like build strong relationships. My view
is this is that you've got to be prepared to
share a little bit more. You've also got to be
prepared to be curious enough if you haven't shared more,
(33:03):
if you're the receiver of the feedback to ask the question,
tell me more. I like those three words, tell me more.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's also a valuable prompt for them because I don't know,
we don't always think about why. And then like someone
might say that to me and I walk away and goo,
good question. Why why did that land with me? And
then you know there's those tiny little bits of introspection
that you learn from.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. I agree, And look there's also a I think
there's just a there's a laziness. I think too well done. Yeah, yeah,
I really liked what you did. I you know, fill
the gap in help someone to make sense because you
(33:50):
know that data. You keep talking to people. That's why
I love coaching for strengths stuff there's a place for
all sorts of coaching, but coaching for strengths in the workplace.
Talk about you continue to coach for strengths, help someone
with their career, kill that something's going to stuff their career,
but you'll see that they'll get it. You'll get like
a twenty five percent uplift in their effort and productivity
(34:13):
if you continue to focus in on the things they
do well. And as you said before about you, we
never end we incrementally improve at that thing, but knowing
that we're going to be acknowledged and appreciated for it,
it keeps it front of mind for us as well.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I love the clarity around things too, like what what
what am I good at? And why do people say that?
And what makes that? And how is it better? And
what do I enjoy? Like there's so many and maybe
I've landed in this place because of all of the
conversations and curiosity and hunger I have for understanding people
(34:52):
in the world and the outcomes and what And sometimes
it almost makes my head explode because they go, well,
there's so many aspects to everything, correlation and causation of
everything that it's and answer doesn't exist and I often
find these days my mind goes straight to all of
(35:13):
the tiny little nuances that might exist outside of the
realm of what someone's presenting. And now I've lost my
completely lost my train of thought of exactly what I
was going to say about that, so.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
That it'll come back to you at some point in
kind you've been But know what, I don't believe you
are chasing perfection. So a good example of why you
shouldn't chase perfection.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Oh well, I was talking about the idea of clarity
and understanding. I started the course yesterday and and for
speaking because I was finally like, I want to I
want to learn more about what I don't know, Like
when I stepped into the world of podcasting that I
knew nothing about. I did it blind and naive, and
I was like, I'll do this. I don't know how
what it is or how people do it, but it
(36:03):
seems like, you know, I love communication, conversation and connection
and this will give me all of that and experience.
So started this course, and what I really enjoy about
it it is picking apart my own thoughts and ideas
and getting and understanding well, actually, like who am I
(36:26):
as a speaker? Slash content maker or provider, like what
what are people? Where do I land? What is my
philosophy that people connect with both their perspective of mine
And some of the little activities we did just brought
so much clarity and it was like, oh, it's really
(36:47):
nice to have a framework that's just me. Like there
was they went across like speaker archetypes, which I always
think that these questionnaires of personality profiles and everything, so
it can be I'm like, oh, you just answer questions
and then you're this, and sometimes it's I just think
(37:08):
it's hard to maybe trust. But this we got these
speaker archetypes and then it kind of talked about and
it just landed and I went, oh, that's really nice
to know you have this central platform of going oh,
I'm so I don't have to be like that or
them or what this person says or how they say
(37:29):
it or do it. And it was nice.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I like that, that's great, and look, I think the
big thing there is Look I call it corporate crystal ball,
and we get people and we get them profiled, then
we put them in a box, but we don't talk.
Usually I say the lazy leadership consultant gets you to
feel that out before you come into the room, and
then you spend about forty minutes on it, just to
(37:52):
fucking fill some time in and then they put you in.
Oh well you're you're a high d mark, so well,
don't know how you're going to get on with Tiff.
He's a high see and you don't underst and why
things are going on now, And all of a sudden
we're in a.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Box deaf, not a high sea mate. I'm so far
from it, I.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
See, can't get out of that box. And I guess
my point is this, if there's if we take away
the laziness of filling some time and we do it,
and we give some reason as to why we're doing it,
so you who are going through this really important program
can make sense of it. Because there was a what
(38:26):
I heard in you say, then here we go again.
But it sounds like they've been able to help you
make some sense about why you're doing that activity, which
which goes deeper than the laziness of what I think
happens in a lot of these programs that we go to.
It's like just get them in the room, get their money,
and do the work. Now, let me ask you this question. So,
(38:49):
how many candles on your birthday cake? Now?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Very soon, in under a month, there'll be forty two. Wait,
so they have a fibergate on and when I'm on
them out.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
So google this up right now? How many days has
it been since your birth? The day you were born,
your day to birth? How many days has it been?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Days old? I'm asking chat GPT because they're my vest
mint nice shadows me and shadows shadows tells me everything.
I am fifteen thousand, four hundred and thirty days.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Old, So let's have a talk about this for a moment.
So how many days old?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Fifteen thousand, four hundred and thirty And.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
When did you start the program?
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yesterday?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So you were fifteen thousand, four hundred and twenty nine
days old. Then yeah, yep, at fifteen thousand, four hundred
and twenty nine days old, you've you've started a new thing.
M The reason I want to talk about this, I
think sometimes we'll be like, well, you know, I'm going
(40:11):
forty two or I'm fifty eight, and like there's nothing
they know new things for me to try, and I can't.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
The way that I'm a world class pianist too, By
the way the last year class, what pianist the end.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I'm glad that you've got the three sort of syllables
in there.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Sometimes I act like a bit of a penis, though
you said it.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Up me one of the ways for me to cope.
On March seventh this year, which was the day of
Zoey's wedding, my youngest got married to lovely Tommy. There
a beautiful couple was I said it. I went to myself,
how long have I been on this earth and this
is the first time I'm going to do this thing.
This is a new thing for me, and I sort
(40:56):
of kicked off my speech, said, look, one of the
reasons I was going down this I was so frigging
emotionally rollercoasting that day out playing golf with the boys
in the morning, felt oh good, every now and again
I'll have this like, how the fuck am I going
to be this afternoon? I spent about an hour and
a half to if in between everyone leaving to go
to the wedding and me hanging out where the girls
(41:17):
were to than be in the car listening to a
lot of Bob Dylan, but also contemplating stupid things like
how many days old am I when I'm going to
do a very new thing today? And I asked the
question at the wedding like I wanted people to think
about when was the last time you did something brand new?
As I said, I'm now twenty thousand and five hundred
(41:40):
and something days old and today I'm doing a brand
new thing. And the brand new thing I was doing,
I said, I get to walk my beautiful daughter down
the aisle on one of the happiest days of her life.
I don't think we think about this enough. Just get
people to think about it out like what stops you
(42:04):
from doing something new whatever it might be. But and
it doesn't have to be new at work or whatever.
But I just want people to think about that. TIF.
I think it's now you've started something new? Yeah, ever
done it before? I think there's a level of excitement
(42:25):
that comes with that. There's absolutely I said, I was
excitedly terrified on the day because you know, you're sort
of like, oh, am I going to cry and I'm
not well. In the end, I cried and I walked
it down the aisle with Allison. But who cares, Like
it doesn't really matter, does it?
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
No, So I just think that's something for us to
all think about, like you're not you're never too old,
and what's the thing that you want to do that's
new and maybe what's the thing that you might even
be it's not your choice. It wasn't my choice to
do that new thing, but you still want to do it.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
One of my favorite weeks on the ten week coaching program,
I'm just finished week nine of the second one at
the moment. One of my favorite weeks is the topic
of and it always I feel like it kind of
blindsides people. They're never expecting it and they're like, oh oh,
and it's fun, So how much fun? Like do you
(43:25):
plan this simple question do you plan fun for your life?
Is how often do you plan for Mark to have
fun for the sake of fun, novelty, just for the
sake of it, just to feel your soul? And then
we go into the science of fun and the fact
that it's very bloody selfish and to not have fun
(43:49):
because then you're a shitty version of yourself taking that
shitty version into interactions with other people. Like it's just
such a simple thing, but just the question, the look
on people face is when I first asked that question,
is always oh oh fu a why are we talking
about fun in this kind of in this course about
(44:10):
you know, mindset and getting better and optimization and blah
blah blah. What do you mean fun? There's no time
for that. I'm busy trying to get better and.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Fix things and not looking like I'm being selfish.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah, even if you take those last three letters off
that word, as we always say, self time and having
a bit of fun and doing that is is important
if you're going to be able to show up as
best you can in other settings, you're better find some
ways to have fun.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, and what then the trick is always I reckon.
There's there's a bit of a balance for novelty, Like
novelty is a part of fun. And what's difficult is
we lean so much on structure and routine to implement things,
so it's this ever evolving thing. It's like, oh, that's cool,
you can implement fun, But once that's implemented and becomes
(45:01):
a routine, then you're back to square one.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Back to that thing of the tangibility and the intangibility,
Like you know, you can't it's hard to plan fun.
Sometimes fun happens in the moment, Like we're going to
we've got the Comedy Festival on here now, so we're going.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
To see Luke McGregor.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Bloody, Hello, we are going to McGregor. But we're going
to you know, we're going to like over five nights
going to different shows and like that's sort of planned
fun because you know, you come out of that feelingly good,
but there'll be some unplanned fun in that as well.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yeah, yeah, well I love that. Yeah, I'm going a
few shows this year.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
How we do when you're going to get going, don't you?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, I've got another podcast shortly, but I want to
keep chanting. It's not fair. It's not fair. Mark. These
don't disappear for another few months.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's been four months. We'll catch up again, I'm sure
before four months is up, and have another conversation and
we might interrogate some of the success we've had over
the time.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
It sounds good, right, like got well, she said, it's
now never.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I got fighting in my blood. Got it to your
goody cost, gotta gotta cost, got it to
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