July 23, 2024 • 44 mins
Welcome to Episode 30 of Touched Out! A Mental Health Podcast for Parents
In this episode, we delve into the often overlooked issue of men's mental health during the postpartum period. Join us as we discuss the challenges and triumphs of navigating postpartum depression from a father's perspective.
Men's Mental Health in the Postpartum Period
Sam shares her partner Mitchell's struggle with postpartum depression and the difficulties they faced in finding adequate support. The conversation highlights the lack of resources and understanding available for men during this crucial time.
The Stigma and Shame of Men's Postpartum Depression
We explore the stigma and shame associated with men experiencing postpartum depression. This segment discusses the societal pressures that discourage men from expressing vulnerability and seeking help.
The Role of Medication and Alternative Support
The episode examines the role of medication in treating postpartum depression and emphasizes exploring alternative forms of support. We discuss the importance of a supportive network and the value of professional guidance.
Building a Strong Parenting Partnership
Mitchell's transformation from struggling father to a confident and supportive partner is a central theme. We highlight how he learned to handle parenting challenges, such as the baby's crying, and stepped up during a pivotal trip to Germany. The importance of time, communication, and shared responsibilities in overcoming postpartum depression and strengthening the parental partnership is emphasized.
Key Takeaways
- Men's mental health during the postpartum period is often stigmatized and under-discussed.
- There is a significant gap in resources and understanding for fathers experiencing postpartum depression.
- Exploring alternative support systems beyond medication is essential.
- Open communication, time, and support from partners are critical in overcoming postpartum depression.
- Breaking the stigma and encouraging open conversations about men's mental health are vital.
Join the Conversation
We invite you to join the discussion on men's mental health during the postpartum period. Share your experiences and thoughts on social media, and let's work together to break the stigma.
Thanks for listening to Touched Out: A Mental Health and Parenting Support Podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam (00:01):
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land.
We pay our respects to theElders past, present and
emerging, for they hold thememories, the traditions and the
culture of the Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
across the nation.
Carter (00:18):
Warning this podcast contains explicit language and
discusses sensitive topicsrelated to mental health
childhood trauma, birth trauma,abuse, miscarriage and suicide.
Listener discretion is advised.
If you find these subjectsdistressing or triggering, we
recommend taking caution andconsidering whether to proceed
with listening.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please reach out to
(00:40):
a mental health professional ora trusted individual for support
.
Your wellbeing is our priority.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Touched Out
podcast.
Today we reconnect with Samfrom Wollongong and discuss her
journey through the ups anddowns of new parenthood.
Sam shares her partner'sstruggle with postpartum
depression and the inadequatesupport that left them both
(01:00):
feeling isolated and ashamed.
We tackle the broader societalchallenges men face when opening
up about their mental health,especially the pressures that
push men to share their feelings, only to be met with shame.
Our discussion points out theinadequacies of community
support systems for men andquestions the medical
profession's sincerity inaddressing no life's been tough.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So take a breath from everything right here and now.
Take some time, it's alright,you'll be fine After touch of a
(01:45):
cat.
Take all night, you'll be fine,it's alright After touch of a
cat.
Carter (02:00):
Okay, so today we have Sam from Wollongong.
I was lucky enough to alreadyhave a conversation with Sam way
back at the beginning of thepodcast, when I was still a
little freshie to the podcastingworld Super fresh.
Yeah, I think you were likeepisode four.
Unfortunately, the recordingdidn't save, so we lost an
(02:23):
entire conversation, but we'reback for round two and we'll get
it going again.
Sam (02:27):
So thank you yet again for joining me no, no, no, no, no,
no, no.
It's actually really funnybecause life has changed so much
since that conversation ofwhere I was at last time.
So when we were talking lasttime, you know I was in the
depths of I think she was 10weeks old and my partner was in
(02:52):
a deep, deep hole of postpartumdepression in men about because
I thought it was valid,considering the absolute hell
that he had gone through with,you know, community health, you
know, trying to find help,various different outlets.
(03:12):
It just didn't work.
And while my sentiment stillsticks of newborn life sucks, I
think I think it's almost moreimportant to talk about the
men's mental health, especiallyas a mother who I fully expected
to get postpartum depression.
I am at higher risk for it.
I have depression and anxiety,but coming from when she was 10
(03:35):
weeks old to she's six months,in four days or something, three
days, and how much and I don'tknow if I can reiterate this
more is how much time really hashelped him.
And hopefully this could speakto a mother who's going through
(03:55):
the same thing as me, or a manwho's listening who you know may
not be willing to, you know,kind of recognize that that's
what's going on or is, you know,has no idea this is going to
end at all.
That's not to say that hedoesn't have his bad days, but
when we were, you know, at 10weeks, and we were talking, you
(04:18):
know there was a lot of tears, alot of tears.
There was so many fights, theworst fights we've ever had in
our life, in our relationship.
You know, we're seven and ahalf years now and we've
actually just come back from atrip from germany.
But he actually proposedcongratulations thank you, thank
you, yeah, yeah, so that that's.
That's how different it it was.
(04:40):
So he's gone from being in thedepths of an extreme self-hatred
and to the point, you know, hetold me he regretted getting me
pregnant.
He regretted everything aboutthis and essentially his pride
and his, you know, hisdetermination of sticking things
(05:00):
out was the only thing keepinghim around.
But if he had been given anopportunity to leave, he would
have.
Carter (05:07):
Yeah.
So just to put it intoperspective, I reckon our first
conversation would have beenaround about the start to
mid-March, so April, may, june,july, so four months ago.
We're looking at so in fourmonths.
I'm just trying to go back thatfar in my mind and remember
some of the points that we diddiscuss At the time.
(05:28):
Your now fiance it was seekingsupport.
Sam (05:33):
Yes.
Carter (05:33):
And not getting it.
He was getting kind ofrailroaded at every turn, yeah,
and there was a lot of kind ofaccusations maybe being thrown
at him by professionals thatwere like are you going to hurt
your child or are you activelyhurting your child?
Sam (05:48):
Yes, there was a lot of shaming him for going through
what he was going through.
You know a lot of mothers thatgo through postpartum depression
.
They get all the help in theworld.
You know there's a lot of help.
There is still a stigma ofshame like, how can you feel
like this about your child?
There was an extreme reactionfrom professionals of that he
(06:13):
was.
You know he was going to be oneof those murder suicides.
You know of the whole family.
You know of the whole familyand the fact of the matter is is
that he just needed time and heneeded a better support.
You know, and that you know Iwas going through, you know, the
fourth trimester.
(06:34):
I was going through my bodyhealing itself from burst.
I was going through mattresssense and things like that, and
I I had a newborn and that wasmy priority at the end of the
day.
I was at one point scared thathe would hurt her, but only if
he was holding her.
He wouldn't just go out of hisway, you know, to actually hurt
(06:54):
her.
So that's something that I'mstill trying to.
I've got my own sort ofpost-traumatic kind of stuff
that I'm dealing with, you know,with his actions.
So it's a lot of.
I still get anxious, you know,when he holds her, but it's out
of a different part of my brain.
Carter (07:14):
It's almost like a conditioned reaction.
Is it Because of the early life?
Sam (07:18):
Yes, yeah, it was completely conditioned.
So in the beginning we soughthelp from community health and
they the site this, like thehead psychiatric nurse lady
psychiatrist was like do you seea demon in your child?
What was your childhood like?
And it's like that's notactioning, like you're going via
(07:38):
a textbook now and you're notactually actioning.
The situation that's happeningat hand.
Carter (07:44):
Yeah.
Sam (07:44):
You know, and you know that made him feel even crazier.
He genuinely was like I'mactually insane, like I'm crazy,
and they kept saying, likelet's schedule you for a
hospital stay, like a 72 hour inthe mental health ward.
The mental health ward inWollongong is not good.
It's actually not good, andneither is community health
Wollongong.
They were not very helpful.
(08:06):
There was a lot of shame aroundhim and like, oh, he's the
father, he's supposed to step up, he's supposed to help the mum,
blah, blah, blah, and it's likehe's having a stress response
reaction.
That's what he's doing, that'sthat's, and he even recognizes
it now he he's having a stressresponse reaction to the
complete and utter change in ourlife that you know, people talk
(08:28):
about it, but there's notenough education on it.
There's also not enougheducation on men and them
dealing with this.
You know, women, we do, becauseit's growing inside of us.
Our brain's already ticking at,you know, 10 million miles an
hour for our future.
But for men it's sort of likethey don't feel the kicks.
You know when they start orthey don't.
You know they don't go throughthe hormonal changes.
(08:50):
You know, in the same sensethat we do, and so when it comes
.
Of course there's going to be astress reaction.
Of course it's going to be likeyou know, alarms going off in
their head like, oh my God, Ihave this tiny human being that
I have to now care for andprovide for and everything else.
So of course it's going to besome sort of thing.
Some men take to it better thanothers on, you know it's like
(09:13):
grieving.
Carter (09:13):
You know everybody's got their different way of handling
it um I, I just I get so, soangry at this.
There's such a major push insociety for men to open up and
oh, share your feelings it's not.
It's okay to not be okay andlike all of these, you know
(09:33):
really really cool and positiveinitiatives to bring men's
mental health into the forefrontand make positive changes in
society, but there is still somany people that are hell-bent
on spinning the same fuckingnarrative.
Sam (09:49):
Yes.
Carter (09:49):
You follow me on Instagram.
I'm not sure if you've seen myexperience recently.
Sam (09:54):
Yes, I did.
Carter (09:54):
I was pretty upset With the men's mental health campaign
and what WIN TV did to my story.
It took 10 minutes worth offootage and took one line, which
is where I said I was scared Iwas going to hurt my child and
span the narrative and made meout to be a potentially violent
man that's what they did to mypartner and then they fucking
(10:15):
wonder why men are so hesitantto talk about their feelings.
It sucks, it's shit, and I feltso horrible and so, so, so
deflated after that ran that Ijust I wanted to pack it all in,
I wanted to stop the podcast,yeah, and I just I wanted to be
like I don't want to be a partof this, this push and this
drive to change society's viewson men's mental health and oh
(10:38):
100, and I can.
Sam (10:39):
I can totally understand why you feel like that, because
you know, even like panda andthings like that, they were not
that helpful.
They're like what?
Like, if they're going to bebrutally honest about what they
are, they're really about womenand motherhood and changes for
them and their mental health andtheir, you know, postpartum
depression in women it's reallynot there.
(10:59):
For men it really isn't.
And it's really kind ofirritating because at the end of
the day, you can have mothers,you can have aunts, you can have
all the family to come aroundand help you out and clean up
and blah, blah, blah.
But the support network that youhave, that's your partner and
your partner.
You know, like I love that man.
You know I remember eventelling you when we first were
(11:24):
having this chat.
You know I loved him and I wasthere for him, regardless,
because plenty of men stay.
You know men have to not put upwith, but men have to go
through their, their partners gothrough postpartum depression.
They feel helpless, you know,and so it would be hypocritical
of me to be like, well, get outof my life, you're unsafe and
(11:44):
everything else, like he was aman who needed support.
Carter (11:47):
Yeah.
Sam (11:48):
And, at the end of the day, like he's the man that I, you
know, he's the person that Iturn to when things go good in
my life and things go bad in mylife, and to see him in such a
way that was, you know, just sodefeated and so angry at the
system.
You know that is supposed to be.
You know, supposedly helpthrough crises which are
(12:10):
actually making it worse andmore angry and creating more
issues in my life than justhelping and doing what we asked.
You know, like it is nosurprise that men are hesitant
towards mental health or evenmedical professions because they
don't take them seriously.
Oh, you're a man, suck it up.
(12:31):
It is what it is.
You know you're a father.
Now Step up.
Carter (12:34):
It seems like we're really at this kind of crossroad
and it's a really defined kindof line in the sand when it
comes to men's mental healthissues and like pushing for that
change.
I feel like we're really closebut we're not quite there.
Sam (12:48):
It's not quite close enough .
Carter (12:50):
And yeah, and look, I understand that your and your
partner's experience with Pandawasn't great, but I will
advocate for them a little bitand say that they are making a
lot of moves and a lot ofchanges in the men's mental
health space.
I'm not sure if it's live as ofyet, but they are planning on
(13:10):
going live with a men's mentalhealth texting service.
Sam (13:14):
No, they've gone live with that.
Yeah, they've gone live withthat.
Carter (13:17):
So things like that.
There is a lot of initiativeand a lot of push for men's
mental health.
The whole Wynn TV thing hadnothing to do with Panda and I
was in contact directly withthem after it aired.
I told them how I felt, howangry I was, how upset and how I
felt betrayed and I was quiterude.
(13:38):
I was quite rude with my emailsand I was like you know, I want
to know who signed off on this.
I want to know who approvedthis edit.
I want, like I was, like Idemand satisfaction, basically.
Sam (13:54):
I would be too, I would be too.
Carter (13:56):
And they were just like.
We are so sorry that this hashappened.
Unfortunately, we had no say inthat final cut.
That's the journalists.
We've been in contact with WynnTV and told them that they need
to provide their journalistswith more training when it comes
to topics such as this that aresensitive.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Journalists will never change,that's just they have to create
(14:21):
the story for the views, right.
Sam (14:22):
It's a clickbait.
They're the original clickbaitcreators.
Yeah.
Carter (14:27):
And when I asked Panda for the footage in its entirety
so I could post it so at leastthe world around me knew what
the real narrative was.
They were more than happy tooblige and they were incredibly
apologetic.
And they offered me supportsand offered me a lot of
(14:47):
different kind of things to makesure that I was okay, so yeah,
it sucks that you guys haven'thad a stellar experience with
them, but yeah, it would be adisservice for me to not
advocate for them.
Sam (15:00):
Of course, and look, everybody's going to have a
different experience.
I just find that a lot of themental health thing, you know,
it is a lot of time.
It's almost a different form ofgrief, really, and because it's
not really, it's not apermanent depression, it's a
time depression.
You know, they do think that itlasts about two years within
(15:22):
mothers and I assume that itlasts about two years within men
.
You know the push formedication.
It doesn't always work becauseantidepressants, realistically,
you know it just makes you notreact.
That's what it is.
It's an inhibitor.
You know that it works forpeople.
It doesn't work for others andthat's fine, like whatever works
(15:43):
for you works for you.
But you know, when we've toldcommunity health, you know he's
just come off antidepressants.
He doesn't want to go back ontoit because he'll just become
useless to me and in all thesense of this family that we now
have.
You know he needed medicationthat was quick, that would
(16:05):
address the situation when hewas having an episode.
Carter (16:08):
No, that's right.
I think I remember us talkingabout this last time and they
kind of treated him like he wasan addict.
Yeah, he was just trying to getpills.
Sam (16:16):
Yes, yes, you're like look, valium works.
I gave him some of my leftoverValium some, you know, way back
when and it works.
It keeps insane andeverything's hunky dory.
But they were like no, butwe're going to give you
mitrazapine, which is reallythere for sleep, but it just
helps people sleep.
I don't know why peopleencourage mitrazapine.
(16:37):
It's quite a heavy drug.
They try to put them onvaldoxin, another heavy
antidepressant.
I'm on a lot.
I was on valdoxin and you knowyou can only take it at night
and it makes you sleep all theway through.
And you know he it wasn't likethere was no hearing of what we
were saying you know he had comeoff antidepressants.
(16:58):
They don't he.
It's not a man that you know itworks for he.
You know there's only so muchtalking that he can do and it
wasn't helping.
He needed something to treatthe situation immediately, to
defuse the bomb.
That's what we needed.
Carter (17:14):
I still find it so odd that some GPs are so willing to
prescribe really, really hecticheavy-.
Sam (17:22):
Antidepressants.
Carter (17:23):
Any type of drug.
Really really hectic, heavy.
Any type of drug Like.
Before I got my ADHD and autismdiagnosis, the first
psychiatrist I saw wanted to putme on a fucking what's that
antipsychotic that is renownedfor you like sleep eating half
way?
Sam (17:38):
through the night.
I know the one you're talkingabout, though.
I know the one you're talkingabout.
Carter (17:43):
It is a really intense antipsychotic.
Yeah, but like that's.
When I told my wife, she waslike Jesus Christ, you don't
need that.
No, and he wanted to put me onhemipsychotics.
Yeah, and then I found adifferent psychiatrist and I was
like I'm fairly certain I haveADHD and he was like okay, we'll
fill out this questionnaire anddo this and do that and do this
(18:04):
.
And then like two weeks laterit's like yeah, man, you've
definitely got ADHD.
Have some fucking Vivanze.
Sam (18:13):
Which is just the Aussie riddle, that's just the Aussie
Adderall.
That's all that is.
Carter (18:17):
Ritalin or yeah, it's just amphetamines.
It's pharmaceutical speed.
Essentially, yeah, Not evenessentially literally.
Sam (18:24):
No, it's literally legal speed.
Carter (18:26):
Yeah, but like what a sliding scale from a heavy
antipsychotic to an upper.
Sam (18:33):
Yes, you know.
Carter (18:34):
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
So I mean, there's a massivelesson.
There is always get a secondopinion and don't just trust the
doctor if you feel like that'snot right.
Sam (18:45):
That was the thing with community health.
So they were like no, we're notgoing to give you Valium
because obviously you're junkiesand asking for it.
You know not that we'veexperimented and obviously it
works and things like that, andthat's what kept him sane.
We're going to give youmitrazazapine, a drug that I've
used before.
Would never recommend it, butyou know if it works for you or
(19:06):
for you.
And then you know when you knowthey would repeatedly come to
the house unexpectedly and youknow when we started saying, no,
you can't come in, you knowthey would get well, why not
like?
Because they would just say canwe come in and then go to walk
into our house before we've?
You know they would get well,why not like?
Because they would just say canwe come in and then go to walk
into our house before we've, youknow, said an answer and we'd
(19:26):
be like no, actually you can't,you can stay right where you are
.
And they'd be like but why are?
you in danger because yes, yes,that was also the other thing
they would call.
They would call him on dailyand then it became like every
second day I'd be like you knowhow are you feeling?
Blah, blah, blah, and he'd justbe like done with them because
they weren't helpful.
They weren't helpful questions,nothing about them was helpful.
(19:48):
And then they would call me.
You know we're all at home,they know we're both on
maternity leave, so we're bothat home and they're like so it
was just Mitchell and it wasreally quite patronizing and it
was almost like degrading himdown to a little boy, you know,
with issues, no, like dubbing onhim to his mum.
Yeah, pretty much Like someonejust spoke into him.
(20:10):
You know he didn't sound thathealthy and rah, rah, rah.
And I'd be like, yeah, becauseyou guys are calling.
And then I would rip them a newone.
I'd be like because you're notlistening to us, you know, and
there was a lot of swearing onmy end because I was like this
fucking bullshit, like what thefuck are you doing?
Are you just ticking off boxesor you're actually here to help?
Because it doesn't feel likeyou're helping.
And then you know they wouldn'tactually hit that like they
(20:33):
would, they wouldn't actuallyapologize, they would do that
backhanded apology like well,we're sorry, you feel that way
but, don't, don't tell me you'resorry, I feel that way.
Suck my dick, um so, and thenthey kept.
They would tell me after everyphone call.
You know, if you have a safeplace to go, you should probably
(20:53):
leave him, jesus, you know, oh,they'd be like you need to call
the police on him the moment.
You start feeling unsafe andyou need to get her and yourself
away from, away from him at anycost.
And I'm like you obviously haveno idea what is going on and
you've, you've created ascenario in your head and in
your notes that he is some, youknow, violent junkie, just a
(21:18):
ticking time bomb yeah, and it'slike this is a man who needed
support, who needed a bettersupport system and to not feel
like he was crazy, which you'veactually made it worse.
Carter (21:31):
Literally getting kicked while he was already down.
Yeah, it's really upsetting tome.
It was salt in the wound.
Sam (21:36):
That's what it was.
Yeah, repeatedly.
Carter (21:39):
That sucks, yeah.
So that was all.
That's all within the last sixmonths.
Sam (21:44):
Yes.
Carter (21:45):
So, from then till now, what's changed?
What's the same?
What's the transformation?
How has he gotten to where heis now?
Sam (21:55):
So I did a sort of sneaky and went to my a sort of sneaky,
and went to my like a GP not myGP but a GP and you know I sort
of it wasn't a lie.
I just elaborated on what thesituation was, that my family
were coming down, they werecoming down, they just weren't
coming down for as long as Isaid they were and I said, look,
(22:17):
I love them, but they give meanxiety.
I have a newborn.
You know, can I get some Valium?
I'm not trying to be a junkie,I just need to get through the
next couple of months with them.
You know it's a cultural thing,blah, blah, blah.
They did come down.
There are.
You know I did need to use itmyself, but I ended up getting a
good supply of it.
(22:37):
We still have most of it.
That's how little he used it.
He literally just needed time.
So I did things like and I spoketo, he got to speak to one of
his friends who, his wife, wentthrough postpartum depression
and they he told me what he didwith her to kind of help her,
you know, connect a little bit.
(22:58):
So there was a lot of bath time.
So you know she's not doingmuch, she's not running around,
she's not, you know, into themud and the grass and everything
else.
But I just started to establisha daily, you know, seven
o'clock six, 30 bath time, daddytime, and that was me and her
(23:19):
and him.
And you know, I would hold herbecause, not out of fear that he
would just drown her in frontof me, but it was too much for
him to touch her, so I would gethim to pour the water over her
head or, you know, help, splashthe water on her tummy and rub,
you know, rub her legs down withthe baby wash and things like
(23:41):
that, and rub her legs down withthe baby wash and things like
that.
Eventually I got him to he nowafter bath time.
We do bath time together asusual, but now, because she's
starting to sit up on her own,you know, there's splishy splash
time, so she gets a splishysplash and we create a little
bit of bubbles and things likethat, and he watches her with
glee, he really does.
(24:01):
And straight after bath timehe's the one that dries her off
and he's the one that puts herin her PJs.
I just lay it out and then hejust goes with it, you know,
rubs her down and turns her intothe greased up death guy and,
with moisturizer, puts a nappy afresh nappy and her PJs on and
then she's ready for me to feedher for the end of the night.
He's gone from a man who anysound happy or just a noise out
(24:31):
of her would literally enragehim, has got turned into.
You know, he can handle hercrying when I'm having a bad
time.
I'm having a bad night becauseI do notice I'm a little less
tolerant of her when I'm on mycycle or coming into my cycle.
You know, and I'm.
You know it's 3.30 in themorning and she's been an
absolute terror.
He can step in and just pickher up, feed her and get her
(24:53):
back to sleep.
You know it might take an hourand a half, but he can step in.
And I had a really bad night,bad night just before we left
for Germany, and I ended upsmacking the wall because she
just would not stop.
She just would not stop and Iwas at my tether and it had been
a week of literal hell.
So I was like I'd been pushedto beyond my limit and I've been
(25:17):
like just go to sleep, just goto sleep, and then I've just hit
the wall at the cot.
Not because I wanted to hit her, I just needed to let out
frustration.
And he's instantly up into theroom, pulled me out and I was
like what are you doing?
And he's like this is likestaring at a mirror, a really
ugly mirror, and it doesn't feelvery good and I need to remove
(25:39):
you from the situation and I'mgoing to take over.
And I was in tears, I was likesobbing, because I'm like how
could I be like this with mychild?
Like she doesn't know what'sgoing on, she's fresh to the
world, yeah, yeah, she's fourmonths old, she's going through
the four months regression.
And he was able to step in.
And then I tried to take overand he's like fuck off, just
(26:00):
fuck off.
Go have a tea, go to bed,whatever, I don't care, but I
need you not to be near her.
Yeah, because it is soreminiscent of how I felt and
how I was.
Yeah, and it didn't feel goodfor him and I think that sort of
put things a little bit intoperspective of him, like what it
was like for me to deal withhim.
(26:21):
But that was all the time andyou know, he's able to step in
when I just can't Before.
It would all be on me.
You know, does he love thecrying?
No, does anybody like a babycrying?
No, you know what I mean.
Carter (26:35):
Not at all Sadists, like babies crying.
Sam (26:39):
That's 100% right.
Carter (26:42):
So cool to hear that it's like his protective
instinct kicked in as a resultof empathy.
That is also a result of livedexperience and true experience.
Sam (26:55):
Yes.
Carter (26:57):
That's transformative man.
That's fucking cool.
That shows immense growth andimmense understanding and
emotional intelligence.
Sam (27:04):
Yes, go, go him yes, very much like I was.
You know it took me a while toprocess it because I was upset
with myself.
I was upset, I was exhaustedfrom the week.
You know there was also thattime of you know I was freaking
out about going to germany,about the flight, how she would
travel, because she didn't likebeing in cars.
(27:24):
You know it was just, it was,it was a whole thing and I was
getting more and more anxious.
And I've got, you know, I'vegot my comfort show, for you
know, when I'm anxious, so whenI start putting it on Mitchell,
like my partner knowsimmediately like oh, she's
anxious you know, and she was adream on the plane.
She slept most of the way.
She had a little bit of jet lagin Germany, not as bad as in
(27:46):
Australia, like coming back toAustralia, but being over there
it was like he was amazing.
Like he was so amazing we'd bein the car.
You know she had a coupletantrums and you know, because
it was from where we were ingermany, in the west of germany,
it was like a sick it was.
If it was just us, it wouldhave been about a four and a
(28:06):
half hour drive to theneuschwanstein castle, which is
where he proposed.
But you know, with her we hadto take more stops changes,
feeding, you know, get her out,let her stretch her legs, you
know things like that.
So it took about six and a halfhours, which which is totally
fine.
She probably had two littletantras and he handled them fine
.
He was totally fine.
He just needed time.
(28:27):
This is a man that needed toadjust to this new life and he
is a man that takes a little bitmore time, not out of because
he's stupid, he's incrediblysmart, just because he just
needs time to absorb and processwhat's going on.
Yeah, and you know he was sogood.
There were days where she, youknow, because she's a FOMO kid,
(28:49):
so she wants to do everythingand anything and see all of the
people, and he would just belike, go eat, let me take over.
Or like we went specificallyover for a family wedding and,
you know, I got a change andthings like that.
I'm trying to help out andthere's wine and everything and
I'm trying to be a good mom andhe's like it's all good, give it
(29:11):
to me.
I got it, it's all good.
And I was able to get changedand have a glass of champagne
and, you know, do my hair andmakeup.
And you know, do my hair andmakeup.
And you know there was a lot oflove.
And in saying that in Germany wehad like a village to help us
out, you know, and you know hisdad's partner, she was like
(29:31):
let's go have a girly day inBonn, which is about a half hour
, 45 minute drive from where wewere, and he was like, yeah,
leave it with us.
I would never have thought Icould do that a million years
ago.
I mean, it was with him and hisdad, but Mitchell did most of
it.
His dad had to sleep for mostof it and I just had a girly day
shopping and we had lunch andeverything and I didn't even
have to worry, like I sent amessage once saying is
(29:52):
everything all good?
And he just went.
Carter (29:54):
Yeah, thumbs up.
Sam (29:55):
Yeah, I'm not even concerned.
I'm not even concerned.
And when we came home, you knowhe said, look, she had a bit of
a fuss but she was fine.
She's had, you know, a nap.
We've had a lot of playtime,some tummy time.
We tossed her in the baby jailLike it's all good.
You know, and you know we wereout for four or five hours and
you know, never in a millionyears would I think that I could
(30:18):
do that, you know, would Ithink that I could do that?
You know, even if he hadsupport to help him, I can now
leave her with him.
You know, if I need, if I justneed to run errands or I just
need a break, you know I can belike I'm going away, I'm going
to Woolies, I'm gonna pop toBaby Bunting, which is like 20
minutes away or something, and Iknow she'll be fine.
(30:38):
You know, is he?
Is he 100%?
No, he's not 100%.
Carter (30:43):
No one is.
No one is.
Sam (30:45):
I have bad days and I didn't even have it.
You know, there are times whereI'm just like I am done being a
mum.
Carter (30:52):
You know, I don't want to be a parent right at the
split second it sounds to melike he has been able to adapt
to rolling with the punches, yes, uh.
And it sounds to me like youguys exhausted all of the
professional help and it got younowhere.
(31:12):
It was literally one stepforward, 10 steps back, 100
steps back.
Excuse me, because, let's behonest, having postpartum
depression as a man for one italready sucks, because you can't
make sense of something thatyou didn't know you could get.
You can't make sense of it.
It's something that you have toadapt to over time.
(31:32):
It's going to take time for anyman.
When it happened to me, it tooktime for me to realize and
process and understand andfigure it out.
It was a puzzle.
It was a puzzle that I had toput together and I didn't have
the box, I didn't have thepicture to look at.
I didn't know what puzzle, whatpicture the puzzle was going to
be once it was finished.
But I got there in the end andit sounds like that's what
(31:53):
happened.
But every time you guys talkedto a professional and they were
like accusatory or belittling ordismissive.
It's like knocking that fuckingpuzzle to pieces again and here
to start fresh, because thatwould have ruined his confidence
as a father.
It would have ruined hisconfidence as a partner.
It would have ruined hisconfidence as a primary carer, a
(32:15):
support person for you, anadvocate for you, an advocate
for himself.
And people fucking wonder whythe suicide rate for men is so
high.
Sam (32:26):
It's so high and it's it's really disheartening because I
am very like, I love men.
I don't like I love men and I Ithink they give a great balance
towards women and you know,it's it's really disheartening
that women can be as open andwhatever.
And yeah, there are otherstigmas that come with women and
(32:47):
mental health.
But specifically when it comesto parenting, you know that men
are, you know, seen as likethey're the provider, they're
the ones that are support, likeyou know.
I mean, when we look at thefifties and the sixties and the
seventies, like men wereliterally there to have good
times with their kids and neverdeal with the bullshit.
And the women, you know, stayedat home and they cooked and
(33:08):
they cleaned and they dealt witheverything, you know, almost
within silence.
But you know, we're in such adifferent age now where you know
men do want to be dads, they dowant to do, you know, even the
hard stuff.
They do want to do it.
Yeah.
Carter (33:22):
You know the emergence of the stay at home father.
Sam (33:25):
Yeah, and like I remember, you know, even asking my partner
when we're on holidays, youknow, do you still regret it?
Do you still regret all of this?
And he said no, not even close.
You know, especially the wayshe's becoming really cool.
You know her little personalityis coming through.
You know she's just developingmore.
(33:47):
It really cool, her littlepersonality is coming through.
She's just developing more.
It's cool.
We've just bought a high chair.
We're just about to start heron solids and give her a little
bit of baby led weaning andthings like that.
So it's really cool.
And even he knows it's reallycool sitting her light up.
When he comes into the roomafter he's been at work all day,
he said that's all freakingworth it.
She's no longer a potato.
She's a potato that smiles andthere is give back now.
Carter (34:11):
And I think that's also part of it.
You can have those sharedexperiences and feel like an
actual unit now, yeah, yeah,that's awesome.
Sam (34:16):
He knows that when I'm done you know, like yesterday I
hadn't had a shower.
The previous day I had a showerthe previous day.
I felt feral.
I was, you know there's a lotof vomit that I was getting a
little over it.
And you know he's come homefrom work and he's done a big
hour, you know 12 hour day andhe's like you know, you're okay,
and I was like I'm just over it, like I haven't had a shower.
You know I didn't have a showeryesterday.
(34:37):
I just feel feral.
Like I've been cooking all dayas well and, you know, playing
and everything.
And she was just resisting everyfrigging nap, no matter how
much I wore out, you know, andshe'd only do really short naps
and I'm like honey, and that wasreally hard as well and I have
the possum's approach when itcomes to naps.
But it's also like have a nap,mom needs a break.
And you know he was like gohave a shower.
(35:00):
I got her and she like go havea shower.
I got her and she was prettyferal as well and I'm like look,
she's feral.
I don't.
You know, I don't know, becausehe can't always handle her when
she's feral and that's fairenough.
I don't want to handle them.
Nobody wants to handle a babywhen they're feral yeah, but
resilience takes time oh, yeah,yeah there is a insane it's.
It's not a natural thing andhe's like, oh, I got it, it's
(35:23):
all.
And he was just all loving.
He took her, he played with her.
You know he changed her.
You know he's like, do youthink she's hungry?
And I was like, yeah, probably.
And he's like, right, and hejust made her a bottle and he
was dancing around and playingwith her and I had a long, nice,
long hot shower and then he waslike, you know, then I told him
what was going on, what the,what the dealers like dinner and
(35:46):
things like that.
We were talking about work andit was all good.
And you know he has these, youknow, other days where he just
can't.
You know, I mean I don'tgenerally get that luxury, but
there are times where I do and I, you know, I look at him and
the way he is with her and it'sjust like.
You know, I would never haveimagined that.
(36:07):
You know, when I first spoke toyou, he now takes over for the
weekend.
Saturday mornings he does, andthen I take it like he lets me
have a bit of a sleep in.
That sounds horrible saying, oh, he lets me have a sleep in.
That's not meant to sound likethat if people are listening.
But on Sundays he takes over aswell.
He gets up, he lets me sleep in, he gets her, he changes her,
he feeds her, he does a big playand lets me wake up whenever I
(36:29):
want to wake up or whenever I dowake up, and that's also been
really freeing for me as well,that I get asleep.
Yes, it's on the weekends, buthe's working all week and he
does two 12-hour shift days.
Carter (36:44):
You're at that point where you guys can support each
other in day-to-day life andit's more of a cohesive unit.
Sam (36:51):
Yes, we go shopping for food together.
That I never thought that wouldhappen.
He carries her in the carrieron the front, so she loves it
and she just hangs out in thefront.
She'll have a nap.
You know we go food shopping.
You know we get the prayer mats, so we can do a really nice big
weekly shop and it's justreally nice to do those Baby's
(37:13):
getting grumpy.
Carter (37:14):
Do those things together and that we can be a unit and,
you know, actually support eachother where it's a give and take
on both ends Whereas before,makes me really really, really
happy to hear that, and I'mreally, really glad that you
guys are in a better place andhe is in a better place and it
sounds like he went through theringer, but he did the work
(37:36):
himself and he has honestly,it's very exciting to be able to
come to you and be like hey,yeah, that's some good news.
Sam (37:41):
When your message saying let's set up another date and
you were like I've got so muchto tell you.
Carter (37:43):
I was like, hey, that's some good news.
When you messaged saying let'sset up another date and you were
like I've got so much to tellyou, I was like, oh, this could
go either way, so I'm glad itwent the way it went, yeah yeah,
it's awesome.
Before we wrap up, is thereanything you want to throw out
to the world?
I'll let you go soon becausebaby obviously is starting to
get a little bit like mom.
I bit like mom.
I want attention, yeah.
Sam (38:03):
Yeah, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Yeah, like this is a testamentto what it is.
And men really do need a littlebit more time than women
because obviously we have thatnine month you know, you know
cooking process before it allcomes to fruition.
There is light, you will cometo it, whether it's five months
(38:26):
down the track, six months ayear down the track, but it's
it's actively, you know going,you know trying to make, you
know, even if it's just bathtime, even if you just fill up
the tub, even if you just sitthere and give her a bottle or
you just watch it play in babyjail or tummy time or what it's
like, small steps are alwaysgoing to make it better and it
(38:48):
does get better.
I will always say that newbornlife sucks, but in saying that
if you are struggling and theconventional ways have not
worked, time will help.
Time will totally help.
Carter (39:02):
Time being open and talking it out with anyone that
you feel trust with yeah.
Anyone Talk it out.
Always talk it out, and if youfeel like you don't have anyone
I have said this multiple timeson other episodes I'm here.
Anyone listening feels likethey're alone.
I am here, my inbox is alwaysopen.
(39:22):
Am here, my inbox is alwaysopen.
And last time you and I spoke,I had um floated the idea of
having your partner come on andhave a chat to me and you said
no fucking way in hell will thatever happen it's probably still
in no way, and no way becausehe never wants to.
Sam (39:38):
He doesn't want to relive it, but he might be more open to
it at some point.
I think it's something thatlike he is very ashamed of what
has happened.
I think that shame will carrywith him for a while.
Yeah.
Carter (39:52):
You know that shame is a hard place to be, because that
shame has such power.
Sam (39:57):
Yes.
Carter (39:57):
And the only way that you can take that power away
from that shame is to talk aboutit.
But it really is a double-edgedsword.
Sam (40:04):
It is.
It's a very brave thing toactually it really, it really is
talk it out yeah, because Idon't think he realized, because
I know he had blackout momentsfrom it.
So it's funny because the otherday we were we were doing the
dogs meet together and we weregiving up like his portions for
the week, for the month andstuff like that, and he put on a
(40:26):
song and it was a song that wasplayed like through the first
like three months, and I burstinto tears.
And he was like what's going on, like can you please change it?
And he's like why?
And I told him what happened,like why, and I said it because
it reminds me of, you know, thissong was playing at our worst,
at at your worst, and I justcouldn't handle it.
And he was like it wasn't allbad.
(40:48):
And I was just like, no, it wasall bad, you know Time will
heal those wounds further aswell.
Carter (40:55):
You'll look at those things in two years and you
might even be able to have alittle bit of a laugh about them
.
That's the weird way in whichour minds can cope with the
traumas.
Sam (41:05):
Yeah.
So I think he sort of blackedout how bad it really was.
You know, I was sleeping on thecouch, he was sleeping in our
room.
There were days when we justbarely spoke to each other and
it's like no, I know, it was allbad.
You know I'm surprised we'velived through that.
Carter (41:22):
Well, yet again, I'm stoked to hear that you guys
have gotten through it.
You're light at the end of thetunnel.
You're now engaged.
He's now you know has theconfidence to you know to be a
father and to be a provider anda future husband and all of
those awesome things, and it'sgiven you the opportunity to
heal your own issues and thingsand worries and just heal from
(41:47):
you know, giving birth oh yes.
You know it must have been anabsolute nightmare for you guys
to go through, but, yeah, superproud of you both.
Well done.
Thank you for coming on again.
It's been awesome to catch up.
It's awesome to see Bubba again.
She's grown a little chunker.
Sam (42:02):
She's so fucking big, literally off the scale for all
of the centauri.
Carter (42:09):
It's so weird.
You know my youngest is onetomorrow.
Oh, happy birthday, thank you.
So when we spoke, you know shewould have been.
I don't even know, I'm shit atmath like seven months.
Sam (42:21):
Seven months, Seven eight.
Carter (42:22):
Her birth both feels like yesterday and like 10 years
ago.
It's, it's fucking weird.
Sam (42:30):
I can't believe she's one already, but I also can't
believe that she's not older andshe's not like getting her
first job.
Carter (42:34):
Hurry up, that's get out of our house.
It would be awesome if shewould hurry up and start
sleeping through the night,cause you know she's a year old
and she still doesn't do that.
Sam (42:43):
Oh look, babies are going to baby, that's the attitude
that I take yeah.
Carter (42:48):
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, sam.
I'll let you get on with yourday and enjoy.
Thanks, mate, bye-bye, bye-bye.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Wake up, it's another day.
Try and find a way to make itso my life's a better place.
If there's one thing I see,then your only thing is me Just
knowing that I'm trying to makea change.
Can I put it all on me,responsibilities, and all the
(43:26):
other nonsense coming byrepeating it?
Thank you Doesn't seem too muchJust to ask for love, cause
(43:46):
there's many things that I'll doover, and I've got a lot, but I
won't give up On those manythings that I'll do over.
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land.
We pay our respects to theElders past, present and
emerging, for they hold thememories, the traditions and the
culture of the Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
across the nation.
Carter (00:18):
Warning this podcast contains explicit language and
discusses sensitive topicsrelated to mental health
childhood trauma, birth trauma,abuse, miscarriage and suicide.
Listener discretion is advised.
If you find these subjectsdistressing or triggering, we
recommend taking caution andconsidering whether to proceed
with listening.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please reach out to
(00:40):
a mental health professional ora trusted individual for support
.
Your wellbeing is our priority.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Touched Out
podcast.
Today we reconnect with Samfrom Wollongong and discuss her
journey through the ups anddowns of new parenthood.
Sam shares her partner'sstruggle with postpartum
depression and the inadequatesupport that left them both
(01:00):
feeling isolated and ashamed.
We tackle the broader societalchallenges men face when opening
up about their mental health,especially the pressures that
push men to share their feelings, only to be met with shame.
Our discussion points out theinadequacies of community
support systems for men andquestions the medical
profession's sincerity inaddressing no life's been tough.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So take a breath from everything right here and now.
Take some time, it's alright,you'll be fine After touch of a
(01:45):
cat.
Take all night, you'll be fine,it's alright After touch of a
cat.
Carter (02:00):
Okay, so today we have Sam from Wollongong.
I was lucky enough to alreadyhave a conversation with Sam way
back at the beginning of thepodcast, when I was still a
little freshie to the podcastingworld Super fresh.
Yeah, I think you were likeepisode four.
Unfortunately, the recordingdidn't save, so we lost an
(02:23):
entire conversation, but we'reback for round two and we'll get
it going again.
Sam (02:27):
So thank you yet again for joining me no, no, no, no, no,
no, no.
It's actually really funnybecause life has changed so much
since that conversation ofwhere I was at last time.
So when we were talking lasttime, you know I was in the
depths of I think she was 10weeks old and my partner was in
(02:52):
a deep, deep hole of postpartumdepression in men about because
I thought it was valid,considering the absolute hell
that he had gone through with,you know, community health, you
know, trying to find help,various different outlets.
(03:12):
It just didn't work.
And while my sentiment stillsticks of newborn life sucks, I
think I think it's almost moreimportant to talk about the
men's mental health, especiallyas a mother who I fully expected
to get postpartum depression.
I am at higher risk for it.
I have depression and anxiety,but coming from when she was 10
(03:35):
weeks old to she's six months,in four days or something, three
days, and how much and I don'tknow if I can reiterate this
more is how much time really hashelped him.
And hopefully this could speakto a mother who's going through
(03:55):
the same thing as me, or a manwho's listening who you know may
not be willing to, you know,kind of recognize that that's
what's going on or is, you know,has no idea this is going to
end at all.
That's not to say that hedoesn't have his bad days, but
when we were, you know, at 10weeks, and we were talking, you
(04:18):
know there was a lot of tears, alot of tears.
There was so many fights, theworst fights we've ever had in
our life, in our relationship.
You know, we're seven and ahalf years now and we've
actually just come back from atrip from germany.
But he actually proposedcongratulations thank you, thank
you, yeah, yeah, so that that's.
That's how different it it was.
(04:40):
So he's gone from being in thedepths of an extreme self-hatred
and to the point, you know, hetold me he regretted getting me
pregnant.
He regretted everything aboutthis and essentially his pride
and his, you know, hisdetermination of sticking things
(05:00):
out was the only thing keepinghim around.
But if he had been given anopportunity to leave, he would
have.
Carter (05:07):
Yeah.
So just to put it intoperspective, I reckon our first
conversation would have beenaround about the start to
mid-March, so April, may, june,july, so four months ago.
We're looking at so in fourmonths.
I'm just trying to go back thatfar in my mind and remember
some of the points that we diddiscuss At the time.
(05:28):
Your now fiance it was seekingsupport.
Sam (05:33):
Yes.
Carter (05:33):
And not getting it.
He was getting kind ofrailroaded at every turn, yeah,
and there was a lot of kind ofaccusations maybe being thrown
at him by professionals thatwere like are you going to hurt
your child or are you activelyhurting your child?
Sam (05:48):
Yes, there was a lot of shaming him for going through
what he was going through.
You know a lot of mothers thatgo through postpartum depression
.
They get all the help in theworld.
You know there's a lot of help.
There is still a stigma ofshame like, how can you feel
like this about your child?
There was an extreme reactionfrom professionals of that he
(06:13):
was.
You know he was going to be oneof those murder suicides.
You know of the whole family.
You know of the whole familyand the fact of the matter is is
that he just needed time and heneeded a better support.
You know, and that you know Iwas going through, you know, the
fourth trimester.
(06:34):
I was going through my bodyhealing itself from burst.
I was going through mattresssense and things like that, and
I I had a newborn and that wasmy priority at the end of the
day.
I was at one point scared thathe would hurt her, but only if
he was holding her.
He wouldn't just go out of hisway, you know, to actually hurt
(06:54):
her.
So that's something that I'mstill trying to.
I've got my own sort ofpost-traumatic kind of stuff
that I'm dealing with, you know,with his actions.
So it's a lot of.
I still get anxious, you know,when he holds her, but it's out
of a different part of my brain.
Carter (07:14):
It's almost like a conditioned reaction.
Is it Because of the early life?
Sam (07:18):
Yes, yeah, it was completely conditioned.
So in the beginning we soughthelp from community health and
they the site this, like thehead psychiatric nurse lady
psychiatrist was like do you seea demon in your child?
What was your childhood like?
And it's like that's notactioning, like you're going via
(07:38):
a textbook now and you're notactually actioning.
The situation that's happeningat hand.
Carter (07:44):
Yeah.
Sam (07:44):
You know, and you know that made him feel even crazier.
He genuinely was like I'mactually insane, like I'm crazy,
and they kept saying, likelet's schedule you for a
hospital stay, like a 72 hour inthe mental health ward.
The mental health ward inWollongong is not good.
It's actually not good, andneither is community health
Wollongong.
They were not very helpful.
(08:06):
There was a lot of shame aroundhim and like, oh, he's the
father, he's supposed to step up, he's supposed to help the mum,
blah, blah, blah, and it's likehe's having a stress response
reaction.
That's what he's doing, that'sthat's, and he even recognizes
it now he he's having a stressresponse reaction to the
complete and utter change in ourlife that you know, people talk
(08:28):
about it, but there's notenough education on it.
There's also not enougheducation on men and them
dealing with this.
You know, women, we do, becauseit's growing inside of us.
Our brain's already ticking at,you know, 10 million miles an
hour for our future.
But for men it's sort of likethey don't feel the kicks.
You know when they start orthey don't.
You know they don't go throughthe hormonal changes.
(08:50):
You know, in the same sensethat we do, and so when it comes
.
Of course there's going to be astress reaction.
Of course it's going to be likeyou know, alarms going off in
their head like, oh my God, Ihave this tiny human being that
I have to now care for andprovide for and everything else.
So of course it's going to besome sort of thing.
Some men take to it better thanothers on, you know it's like
(09:13):
grieving.
Carter (09:13):
You know everybody's got their different way of handling
it um I, I just I get so, soangry at this.
There's such a major push insociety for men to open up and
oh, share your feelings it's not.
It's okay to not be okay andlike all of these, you know
(09:33):
really really cool and positiveinitiatives to bring men's
mental health into the forefrontand make positive changes in
society, but there is still somany people that are hell-bent
on spinning the same fuckingnarrative.
Sam (09:49):
Yes.
Carter (09:49):
You follow me on Instagram.
I'm not sure if you've seen myexperience recently.
Sam (09:54):
Yes, I did.
Carter (09:54):
I was pretty upset With the men's mental health campaign
and what WIN TV did to my story.
It took 10 minutes worth offootage and took one line, which
is where I said I was scared Iwas going to hurt my child and
span the narrative and made meout to be a potentially violent
man that's what they did to mypartner and then they fucking
(10:15):
wonder why men are so hesitantto talk about their feelings.
It sucks, it's shit, and I feltso horrible and so, so, so
deflated after that ran that Ijust I wanted to pack it all in,
I wanted to stop the podcast,yeah, and I just I wanted to be
like I don't want to be a partof this, this push and this
drive to change society's viewson men's mental health and oh
(10:38):
100, and I can.
Sam (10:39):
I can totally understand why you feel like that, because
you know, even like panda andthings like that, they were not
that helpful.
They're like what?
Like, if they're going to bebrutally honest about what they
are, they're really about womenand motherhood and changes for
them and their mental health andtheir, you know, postpartum
depression in women it's reallynot there.
(10:59):
For men it really isn't.
And it's really kind ofirritating because at the end of
the day, you can have mothers,you can have aunts, you can have
all the family to come aroundand help you out and clean up
and blah, blah, blah.
But the support network that youhave, that's your partner and
your partner.
You know, like I love that man.
You know I remember eventelling you when we first were
(11:24):
having this chat.
You know I loved him and I wasthere for him, regardless,
because plenty of men stay.
You know men have to not put upwith, but men have to go
through their, their partners gothrough postpartum depression.
They feel helpless, you know,and so it would be hypocritical
of me to be like, well, get outof my life, you're unsafe and
(11:44):
everything else, like he was aman who needed support.
Carter (11:47):
Yeah.
Sam (11:48):
And, at the end of the day, like he's the man that I, you
know, he's the person that Iturn to when things go good in
my life and things go bad in mylife, and to see him in such a
way that was, you know, just sodefeated and so angry at the
system.
You know that is supposed to be.
You know, supposedly helpthrough crises which are
(12:10):
actually making it worse andmore angry and creating more
issues in my life than justhelping and doing what we asked.
You know, like it is nosurprise that men are hesitant
towards mental health or evenmedical professions because they
don't take them seriously.
Oh, you're a man, suck it up.
(12:31):
It is what it is.
You know you're a father.
Now Step up.
Carter (12:34):
It seems like we're really at this kind of crossroad
and it's a really defined kindof line in the sand when it
comes to men's mental healthissues and like pushing for that
change.
I feel like we're really closebut we're not quite there.
Sam (12:48):
It's not quite close enough .
Carter (12:50):
And yeah, and look, I understand that your and your
partner's experience with Pandawasn't great, but I will
advocate for them a little bitand say that they are making a
lot of moves and a lot ofchanges in the men's mental
health space.
I'm not sure if it's live as ofyet, but they are planning on
(13:10):
going live with a men's mentalhealth texting service.
Sam (13:14):
No, they've gone live with that.
Yeah, they've gone live withthat.
Carter (13:17):
So things like that.
There is a lot of initiativeand a lot of push for men's
mental health.
The whole Wynn TV thing hadnothing to do with Panda and I
was in contact directly withthem after it aired.
I told them how I felt, howangry I was, how upset and how I
felt betrayed and I was quiterude.
(13:38):
I was quite rude with my emailsand I was like you know, I want
to know who signed off on this.
I want to know who approvedthis edit.
I want, like I was, like Idemand satisfaction, basically.
Sam (13:54):
I would be too, I would be too.
Carter (13:56):
And they were just like.
We are so sorry that this hashappened.
Unfortunately, we had no say inthat final cut.
That's the journalists.
We've been in contact with WynnTV and told them that they need
to provide their journalistswith more training when it comes
to topics such as this that aresensitive.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Journalists will never change,that's just they have to create
(14:21):
the story for the views, right.
Sam (14:22):
It's a clickbait.
They're the original clickbaitcreators.
Yeah.
Carter (14:27):
And when I asked Panda for the footage in its entirety
so I could post it so at leastthe world around me knew what
the real narrative was.
They were more than happy tooblige and they were incredibly
apologetic.
And they offered me supportsand offered me a lot of
(14:47):
different kind of things to makesure that I was okay, so yeah,
it sucks that you guys haven'thad a stellar experience with
them, but yeah, it would be adisservice for me to not
advocate for them.
Sam (15:00):
Of course, and look, everybody's going to have a
different experience.
I just find that a lot of themental health thing, you know,
it is a lot of time.
It's almost a different form ofgrief, really, and because it's
not really, it's not apermanent depression, it's a
time depression.
You know, they do think that itlasts about two years within
(15:22):
mothers and I assume that itlasts about two years within men
.
You know the push formedication.
It doesn't always work becauseantidepressants, realistically,
you know it just makes you notreact.
That's what it is.
It's an inhibitor.
You know that it works forpeople.
It doesn't work for others andthat's fine, like whatever works
(15:43):
for you works for you.
But you know, when we've toldcommunity health, you know he's
just come off antidepressants.
He doesn't want to go back ontoit because he'll just become
useless to me and in all thesense of this family that we now
have.
You know he needed medicationthat was quick, that would
(16:05):
address the situation when hewas having an episode.
Carter (16:08):
No, that's right.
I think I remember us talkingabout this last time and they
kind of treated him like he wasan addict.
Yeah, he was just trying to getpills.
Sam (16:16):
Yes, yes, you're like look, valium works.
I gave him some of my leftoverValium some, you know, way back
when and it works.
It keeps insane andeverything's hunky dory.
But they were like no, butwe're going to give you
mitrazapine, which is reallythere for sleep, but it just
helps people sleep.
I don't know why peopleencourage mitrazapine.
(16:37):
It's quite a heavy drug.
They try to put them onvaldoxin, another heavy
antidepressant.
I'm on a lot.
I was on valdoxin and you knowyou can only take it at night
and it makes you sleep all theway through.
And you know he it wasn't likethere was no hearing of what we
were saying you know he had comeoff antidepressants.
(16:58):
They don't he.
It's not a man that you know itworks for he.
You know there's only so muchtalking that he can do and it
wasn't helping.
He needed something to treatthe situation immediately, to
defuse the bomb.
That's what we needed.
Carter (17:14):
I still find it so odd that some GPs are so willing to
prescribe really, really hecticheavy-.
Sam (17:22):
Antidepressants.
Carter (17:23):
Any type of drug.
Really really hectic, heavy.
Any type of drug Like.
Before I got my ADHD and autismdiagnosis, the first
psychiatrist I saw wanted to putme on a fucking what's that
antipsychotic that is renownedfor you like sleep eating half
way?
Sam (17:38):
through the night.
I know the one you're talkingabout, though.
I know the one you're talkingabout.
Carter (17:43):
It is a really intense antipsychotic.
Yeah, but like that's.
When I told my wife, she waslike Jesus Christ, you don't
need that.
No, and he wanted to put me onhemipsychotics.
Yeah, and then I found adifferent psychiatrist and I was
like I'm fairly certain I haveADHD and he was like okay, we'll
fill out this questionnaire anddo this and do that and do this
(18:04):
.
And then like two weeks laterit's like yeah, man, you've
definitely got ADHD.
Have some fucking Vivanze.
Sam (18:13):
Which is just the Aussie riddle, that's just the Aussie
Adderall.
That's all that is.
Carter (18:17):
Ritalin or yeah, it's just amphetamines.
It's pharmaceutical speed.
Essentially, yeah, Not evenessentially literally.
Sam (18:24):
No, it's literally legal speed.
Carter (18:26):
Yeah, but like what a sliding scale from a heavy
antipsychotic to an upper.
Sam (18:33):
Yes, you know.
Carter (18:34):
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
So I mean, there's a massivelesson.
There is always get a secondopinion and don't just trust the
doctor if you feel like that'snot right.
Sam (18:45):
That was the thing with community health.
So they were like no, we're notgoing to give you Valium
because obviously you're junkiesand asking for it.
You know not that we'veexperimented and obviously it
works and things like that, andthat's what kept him sane.
We're going to give youmitrazazapine, a drug that I've
used before.
Would never recommend it, butyou know if it works for you or
(19:06):
for you.
And then you know when you knowthey would repeatedly come to
the house unexpectedly and youknow when we started saying, no,
you can't come in, you knowthey would get well, why not
like?
Because they would just say canwe come in and then go to walk
into our house before we've?
You know they would get well,why not like?
Because they would just say canwe come in and then go to walk
into our house before we've, youknow, said an answer and we'd
(19:26):
be like no, actually you can't,you can stay right where you are
.
And they'd be like but why are?
you in danger because yes, yes,that was also the other thing
they would call.
They would call him on dailyand then it became like every
second day I'd be like you knowhow are you feeling?
Blah, blah, blah, and he'd justbe like done with them because
they weren't helpful.
They weren't helpful questions,nothing about them was helpful.
(19:48):
And then they would call me.
You know we're all at home,they know we're both on
maternity leave, so we're bothat home and they're like so it
was just Mitchell and it wasreally quite patronizing and it
was almost like degrading himdown to a little boy, you know,
with issues, no, like dubbing onhim to his mum.
Yeah, pretty much Like someonejust spoke into him.
(20:10):
You know he didn't sound thathealthy and rah, rah, rah.
And I'd be like, yeah, becauseyou guys are calling.
And then I would rip them a newone.
I'd be like because you're notlistening to us, you know, and
there was a lot of swearing onmy end because I was like this
fucking bullshit, like what thefuck are you doing?
Are you just ticking off boxesor you're actually here to help?
Because it doesn't feel likeyou're helping.
And then you know they wouldn'tactually hit that like they
(20:33):
would, they wouldn't actuallyapologize, they would do that
backhanded apology like well,we're sorry, you feel that way
but, don't, don't tell me you'resorry, I feel that way.
Suck my dick, um so, and thenthey kept.
They would tell me after everyphone call.
You know, if you have a safeplace to go, you should probably
(20:53):
leave him, jesus, you know, oh,they'd be like you need to call
the police on him the moment.
You start feeling unsafe andyou need to get her and yourself
away from, away from him at anycost.
And I'm like you obviously haveno idea what is going on and
you've, you've created ascenario in your head and in
your notes that he is some, youknow, violent junkie, just a
(21:18):
ticking time bomb yeah, and it'slike this is a man who needed
support, who needed a bettersupport system and to not feel
like he was crazy, which you'veactually made it worse.
Carter (21:31):
Literally getting kicked while he was already down.
Yeah, it's really upsetting tome.
It was salt in the wound.
Sam (21:36):
That's what it was.
Yeah, repeatedly.
Carter (21:39):
That sucks, yeah.
So that was all.
That's all within the last sixmonths.
Sam (21:44):
Yes.
Carter (21:45):
So, from then till now, what's changed?
What's the same?
What's the transformation?
How has he gotten to where heis now?
Sam (21:55):
So I did a sort of sneaky and went to my a sort of sneaky,
and went to my like a GP not myGP but a GP and you know I sort
of it wasn't a lie.
I just elaborated on what thesituation was, that my family
were coming down, they werecoming down, they just weren't
coming down for as long as Isaid they were and I said, look,
(22:17):
I love them, but they give meanxiety.
I have a newborn.
You know, can I get some Valium?
I'm not trying to be a junkie,I just need to get through the
next couple of months with them.
You know it's a cultural thing,blah, blah, blah.
They did come down.
There are.
You know I did need to use itmyself, but I ended up getting a
good supply of it.
(22:37):
We still have most of it.
That's how little he used it.
He literally just needed time.
So I did things like and I spoketo, he got to speak to one of
his friends who, his wife, wentthrough postpartum depression
and they he told me what he didwith her to kind of help her,
you know, connect a little bit.
(22:58):
So there was a lot of bath time.
So you know she's not doingmuch, she's not running around,
she's not, you know, into themud and the grass and everything
else.
But I just started to establisha daily, you know, seven
o'clock six, 30 bath time, daddytime, and that was me and her
(23:19):
and him.
And you know, I would hold herbecause, not out of fear that he
would just drown her in frontof me, but it was too much for
him to touch her, so I would gethim to pour the water over her
head or, you know, help, splashthe water on her tummy and rub,
you know, rub her legs down withthe baby wash and things like
(23:41):
that, and rub her legs down withthe baby wash and things like
that.
Eventually I got him to he nowafter bath time.
We do bath time together asusual, but now, because she's
starting to sit up on her own,you know, there's splishy splash
time, so she gets a splishysplash and we create a little
bit of bubbles and things likethat, and he watches her with
glee, he really does.
(24:01):
And straight after bath timehe's the one that dries her off
and he's the one that puts herin her PJs.
I just lay it out and then hejust goes with it, you know,
rubs her down and turns her intothe greased up death guy and,
with moisturizer, puts a nappy afresh nappy and her PJs on and
then she's ready for me to feedher for the end of the night.
He's gone from a man who anysound happy or just a noise out
(24:31):
of her would literally enragehim, has got turned into.
You know, he can handle hercrying when I'm having a bad
time.
I'm having a bad night becauseI do notice I'm a little less
tolerant of her when I'm on mycycle or coming into my cycle.
You know, and I'm.
You know it's 3.30 in themorning and she's been an
absolute terror.
He can step in and just pickher up, feed her and get her
(24:53):
back to sleep.
You know it might take an hourand a half, but he can step in.
And I had a really bad night,bad night just before we left
for Germany, and I ended upsmacking the wall because she
just would not stop.
She just would not stop and Iwas at my tether and it had been
a week of literal hell.
So I was like I'd been pushedto beyond my limit and I've been
(25:17):
like just go to sleep, just goto sleep, and then I've just hit
the wall at the cot.
Not because I wanted to hit her, I just needed to let out
frustration.
And he's instantly up into theroom, pulled me out and I was
like what are you doing?
And he's like this is likestaring at a mirror, a really
ugly mirror, and it doesn't feelvery good and I need to remove
(25:39):
you from the situation and I'mgoing to take over.
And I was in tears, I was likesobbing, because I'm like how
could I be like this with mychild?
Like she doesn't know what'sgoing on, she's fresh to the
world, yeah, yeah, she's fourmonths old, she's going through
the four months regression.
And he was able to step in.
And then I tried to take overand he's like fuck off, just
(26:00):
fuck off.
Go have a tea, go to bed,whatever, I don't care, but I
need you not to be near her.
Yeah, because it is soreminiscent of how I felt and
how I was.
Yeah, and it didn't feel goodfor him and I think that sort of
put things a little bit intoperspective of him, like what it
was like for me to deal withhim.
(26:21):
But that was all the time andyou know, he's able to step in
when I just can't Before.
It would all be on me.
You know, does he love thecrying?
No, does anybody like a babycrying?
No, you know what I mean.
Carter (26:35):
Not at all Sadists, like babies crying.
Sam (26:39):
That's 100% right.
Carter (26:42):
So cool to hear that it's like his protective
instinct kicked in as a resultof empathy.
That is also a result of livedexperience and true experience.
Sam (26:55):
Yes.
Carter (26:57):
That's transformative man.
That's fucking cool.
That shows immense growth andimmense understanding and
emotional intelligence.
Sam (27:04):
Yes, go, go him yes, very much like I was.
You know it took me a while toprocess it because I was upset
with myself.
I was upset, I was exhaustedfrom the week.
You know there was also thattime of you know I was freaking
out about going to germany,about the flight, how she would
travel, because she didn't likebeing in cars.
(27:24):
You know it was just, it was,it was a whole thing and I was
getting more and more anxious.
And I've got, you know, I'vegot my comfort show, for you
know, when I'm anxious, so whenI start putting it on Mitchell,
like my partner knowsimmediately like oh, she's
anxious you know, and she was adream on the plane.
She slept most of the way.
She had a little bit of jet lagin Germany, not as bad as in
(27:46):
Australia, like coming back toAustralia, but being over there
it was like he was amazing.
Like he was so amazing we'd bein the car.
You know she had a coupletantrums and you know, because
it was from where we were ingermany, in the west of germany,
it was like a sick it was.
If it was just us, it wouldhave been about a four and a
(28:06):
half hour drive to theneuschwanstein castle, which is
where he proposed.
But you know, with her we hadto take more stops changes,
feeding, you know, get her out,let her stretch her legs, you
know things like that.
So it took about six and a halfhours, which which is totally
fine.
She probably had two littletantras and he handled them fine
.
He was totally fine.
He just needed time.
(28:27):
This is a man that needed toadjust to this new life and he
is a man that takes a little bitmore time, not out of because
he's stupid, he's incrediblysmart, just because he just
needs time to absorb and processwhat's going on.
Yeah, and you know he was sogood.
There were days where she, youknow, because she's a FOMO kid,
(28:49):
so she wants to do everythingand anything and see all of the
people, and he would just belike, go eat, let me take over.
Or like we went specificallyover for a family wedding and,
you know, I got a change andthings like that.
I'm trying to help out andthere's wine and everything and
I'm trying to be a good mom andhe's like it's all good, give it
(29:11):
to me.
I got it, it's all good.
And I was able to get changedand have a glass of champagne
and, you know, do my hair andmakeup.
And you know, do my hair andmakeup.
And you know there was a lot oflove.
And in saying that in Germany wehad like a village to help us
out, you know, and you know hisdad's partner, she was like
(29:31):
let's go have a girly day inBonn, which is about a half hour
, 45 minute drive from where wewere, and he was like, yeah,
leave it with us.
I would never have thought Icould do that a million years
ago.
I mean, it was with him and hisdad, but Mitchell did most of
it.
His dad had to sleep for mostof it and I just had a girly day
shopping and we had lunch andeverything and I didn't even
have to worry, like I sent amessage once saying is
(29:52):
everything all good?
And he just went.
Carter (29:54):
Yeah, thumbs up.
Sam (29:55):
Yeah, I'm not even concerned.
I'm not even concerned.
And when we came home, you knowhe said, look, she had a bit of
a fuss but she was fine.
She's had, you know, a nap.
We've had a lot of playtime,some tummy time.
We tossed her in the baby jailLike it's all good.
You know, and you know we wereout for four or five hours and
you know, never in a millionyears would I think that I could
(30:18):
do that, you know, would Ithink that I could do that?
You know, even if he hadsupport to help him, I can now
leave her with him.
You know, if I need, if I justneed to run errands or I just
need a break, you know I can belike I'm going away, I'm going
to Woolies, I'm gonna pop toBaby Bunting, which is like 20
minutes away or something, and Iknow she'll be fine.
(30:38):
You know, is he?
Is he 100%?
No, he's not 100%.
Carter (30:43):
No one is.
No one is.
Sam (30:45):
I have bad days and I didn't even have it.
You know, there are times whereI'm just like I am done being a
mum.
Carter (30:52):
You know, I don't want to be a parent right at the
split second it sounds to melike he has been able to adapt
to rolling with the punches, yes, uh.
And it sounds to me like youguys exhausted all of the
professional help and it got younowhere.
(31:12):
It was literally one stepforward, 10 steps back, 100
steps back.
Excuse me, because, let's behonest, having postpartum
depression as a man for one italready sucks, because you can't
make sense of something thatyou didn't know you could get.
You can't make sense of it.
It's something that you have toadapt to over time.
(31:32):
It's going to take time for anyman.
When it happened to me, it tooktime for me to realize and
process and understand andfigure it out.
It was a puzzle.
It was a puzzle that I had toput together and I didn't have
the box, I didn't have thepicture to look at.
I didn't know what puzzle, whatpicture the puzzle was going to
be once it was finished.
But I got there in the end andit sounds like that's what
(31:53):
happened.
But every time you guys talkedto a professional and they were
like accusatory or belittling ordismissive.
It's like knocking that fuckingpuzzle to pieces again and here
to start fresh, because thatwould have ruined his confidence
as a father.
It would have ruined hisconfidence as a partner.
It would have ruined hisconfidence as a primary carer, a
(32:15):
support person for you, anadvocate for you, an advocate
for himself.
And people fucking wonder whythe suicide rate for men is so
high.
Sam (32:26):
It's so high and it's it's really disheartening because I
am very like, I love men.
I don't like I love men and I Ithink they give a great balance
towards women and you know,it's it's really disheartening
that women can be as open andwhatever.
And yeah, there are otherstigmas that come with women and
(32:47):
mental health.
But specifically when it comesto parenting, you know that men
are, you know, seen as likethey're the provider, they're
the ones that are support, likeyou know.
I mean, when we look at thefifties and the sixties and the
seventies, like men wereliterally there to have good
times with their kids and neverdeal with the bullshit.
And the women, you know, stayedat home and they cooked and
(33:08):
they cleaned and they dealt witheverything, you know, almost
within silence.
But you know, we're in such adifferent age now where you know
men do want to be dads, they dowant to do, you know, even the
hard stuff.
They do want to do it.
Yeah.
Carter (33:22):
You know the emergence of the stay at home father.
Sam (33:25):
Yeah, and like I remember, you know, even asking my partner
when we're on holidays, youknow, do you still regret it?
Do you still regret all of this?
And he said no, not even close.
You know, especially the wayshe's becoming really cool.
You know her little personalityis coming through.
You know she's just developingmore.
(33:47):
It really cool, her littlepersonality is coming through.
She's just developing more.
It's cool.
We've just bought a high chair.
We're just about to start heron solids and give her a little
bit of baby led weaning andthings like that.
So it's really cool.
And even he knows it's reallycool sitting her light up.
When he comes into the roomafter he's been at work all day,
he said that's all freakingworth it.
She's no longer a potato.
She's a potato that smiles andthere is give back now.
Carter (34:11):
And I think that's also part of it.
You can have those sharedexperiences and feel like an
actual unit now, yeah, yeah,that's awesome.
Sam (34:16):
He knows that when I'm done you know, like yesterday I
hadn't had a shower.
The previous day I had a showerthe previous day.
I felt feral.
I was, you know there's a lotof vomit that I was getting a
little over it.
And you know he's come homefrom work and he's done a big
hour, you know 12 hour day andhe's like you know, you're okay,
and I was like I'm just over it, like I haven't had a shower.
You know I didn't have a showeryesterday.
(34:37):
I just feel feral.
Like I've been cooking all dayas well and, you know, playing
and everything.
And she was just resisting everyfrigging nap, no matter how
much I wore out, you know, andshe'd only do really short naps
and I'm like honey, and that wasreally hard as well and I have
the possum's approach when itcomes to naps.
But it's also like have a nap,mom needs a break.
And you know he was like gohave a shower.
(35:00):
I got her and she like go havea shower.
I got her and she was prettyferal as well and I'm like look,
she's feral.
I don't.
You know, I don't know, becausehe can't always handle her when
she's feral and that's fairenough.
I don't want to handle them.
Nobody wants to handle a babywhen they're feral yeah, but
resilience takes time oh, yeah,yeah there is a insane it's.
It's not a natural thing andhe's like, oh, I got it, it's
(35:23):
all.
And he was just all loving.
He took her, he played with her.
You know he changed her.
You know he's like, do youthink she's hungry?
And I was like, yeah, probably.
And he's like, right, and hejust made her a bottle and he
was dancing around and playingwith her and I had a long, nice,
long hot shower and then he waslike, you know, then I told him
what was going on, what the,what the dealers like dinner and
(35:46):
things like that.
We were talking about work andit was all good.
And you know he has these, youknow, other days where he just
can't.
You know, I mean I don'tgenerally get that luxury, but
there are times where I do and I, you know, I look at him and
the way he is with her and it'sjust like.
You know, I would never haveimagined that.
(36:07):
You know, when I first spoke toyou, he now takes over for the
weekend.
Saturday mornings he does, andthen I take it like he lets me
have a bit of a sleep in.
That sounds horrible saying, oh, he lets me have a sleep in.
That's not meant to sound likethat if people are listening.
But on Sundays he takes over aswell.
He gets up, he lets me sleep in, he gets her, he changes her,
he feeds her, he does a big playand lets me wake up whenever I
(36:29):
want to wake up or whenever I dowake up, and that's also been
really freeing for me as well,that I get asleep.
Yes, it's on the weekends, buthe's working all week and he
does two 12-hour shift days.
Carter (36:44):
You're at that point where you guys can support each
other in day-to-day life andit's more of a cohesive unit.
Sam (36:51):
Yes, we go shopping for food together.
That I never thought that wouldhappen.
He carries her in the carrieron the front, so she loves it
and she just hangs out in thefront.
She'll have a nap.
You know we go food shopping.
You know we get the prayer mats, so we can do a really nice big
weekly shop and it's justreally nice to do those Baby's
(37:13):
getting grumpy.
Carter (37:14):
Do those things together and that we can be a unit and,
you know, actually support eachother where it's a give and take
on both ends Whereas before,makes me really really, really
happy to hear that, and I'mreally, really glad that you
guys are in a better place andhe is in a better place and it
sounds like he went through theringer, but he did the work
(37:36):
himself and he has honestly,it's very exciting to be able to
come to you and be like hey,yeah, that's some good news.
Sam (37:41):
When your message saying let's set up another date and
you were like I've got so muchto tell you.
Carter (37:43):
I was like, hey, that's some good news.
When you messaged saying let'sset up another date and you were
like I've got so much to tellyou, I was like, oh, this could
go either way, so I'm glad itwent the way it went, yeah yeah,
it's awesome.
Before we wrap up, is thereanything you want to throw out
to the world?
I'll let you go soon becausebaby obviously is starting to
get a little bit like mom.
I bit like mom.
I want attention, yeah.
Sam (38:03):
Yeah, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Yeah, like this is a testamentto what it is.
And men really do need a littlebit more time than women
because obviously we have thatnine month you know, you know
cooking process before it allcomes to fruition.
There is light, you will cometo it, whether it's five months
(38:26):
down the track, six months ayear down the track, but it's
it's actively, you know going,you know trying to make, you
know, even if it's just bathtime, even if you just fill up
the tub, even if you just sitthere and give her a bottle or
you just watch it play in babyjail or tummy time or what it's
like, small steps are alwaysgoing to make it better and it
(38:48):
does get better.
I will always say that newbornlife sucks, but in saying that
if you are struggling and theconventional ways have not
worked, time will help.
Time will totally help.
Carter (39:02):
Time being open and talking it out with anyone that
you feel trust with yeah.
Anyone Talk it out.
Always talk it out, and if youfeel like you don't have anyone
I have said this multiple timeson other episodes I'm here.
Anyone listening feels likethey're alone.
I am here, my inbox is alwaysopen.
(39:22):
Am here, my inbox is alwaysopen.
And last time you and I spoke,I had um floated the idea of
having your partner come on andhave a chat to me and you said
no fucking way in hell will thatever happen it's probably still
in no way, and no way becausehe never wants to.
Sam (39:38):
He doesn't want to relive it, but he might be more open to
it at some point.
I think it's something thatlike he is very ashamed of what
has happened.
I think that shame will carrywith him for a while.
Yeah.
Carter (39:52):
You know that shame is a hard place to be, because that
shame has such power.
Sam (39:57):
Yes.
Carter (39:57):
And the only way that you can take that power away
from that shame is to talk aboutit.
But it really is a double-edgedsword.
Sam (40:04):
It is.
It's a very brave thing toactually it really, it really is
talk it out yeah, because Idon't think he realized, because
I know he had blackout momentsfrom it.
So it's funny because the otherday we were we were doing the
dogs meet together and we weregiving up like his portions for
the week, for the month andstuff like that, and he put on a
(40:26):
song and it was a song that wasplayed like through the first
like three months, and I burstinto tears.
And he was like what's going on, like can you please change it?
And he's like why?
And I told him what happened,like why, and I said it because
it reminds me of, you know, thissong was playing at our worst,
at at your worst, and I justcouldn't handle it.
And he was like it wasn't allbad.
(40:48):
And I was just like, no, it wasall bad, you know Time will
heal those wounds further aswell.
Carter (40:55):
You'll look at those things in two years and you
might even be able to have alittle bit of a laugh about them
.
That's the weird way in whichour minds can cope with the
traumas.
Sam (41:05):
Yeah.
So I think he sort of blackedout how bad it really was.
You know, I was sleeping on thecouch, he was sleeping in our
room.
There were days when we justbarely spoke to each other and
it's like no, I know, it was allbad.
You know I'm surprised we'velived through that.
Carter (41:22):
Well, yet again, I'm stoked to hear that you guys
have gotten through it.
You're light at the end of thetunnel.
You're now engaged.
He's now you know has theconfidence to you know to be a
father and to be a provider anda future husband and all of
those awesome things, and it'sgiven you the opportunity to
heal your own issues and thingsand worries and just heal from
(41:47):
you know, giving birth oh yes.
You know it must have been anabsolute nightmare for you guys
to go through, but, yeah, superproud of you both.
Well done.
Thank you for coming on again.
It's been awesome to catch up.
It's awesome to see Bubba again.
She's grown a little chunker.
Sam (42:02):
She's so fucking big, literally off the scale for all
of the centauri.
Carter (42:09):
It's so weird.
You know my youngest is onetomorrow.
Oh, happy birthday, thank you.
So when we spoke, you know shewould have been.
I don't even know, I'm shit atmath like seven months.
Sam (42:21):
Seven months, Seven eight.
Carter (42:22):
Her birth both feels like yesterday and like 10 years
ago.
It's, it's fucking weird.
Sam (42:30):
I can't believe she's one already, but I also can't
believe that she's not older andshe's not like getting her
first job.
Carter (42:34):
Hurry up, that's get out of our house.
It would be awesome if shewould hurry up and start
sleeping through the night,cause you know she's a year old
and she still doesn't do that.
Sam (42:43):
Oh look, babies are going to baby, that's the attitude
that I take yeah.
Carter (42:48):
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, sam.
I'll let you get on with yourday and enjoy.
Thanks, mate, bye-bye, bye-bye.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Wake up, it's another day.
Try and find a way to make itso my life's a better place.
If there's one thing I see,then your only thing is me Just
knowing that I'm trying to makea change.
Can I put it all on me,responsibilities, and all the
(43:26):
other nonsense coming byrepeating it?
Thank you Doesn't seem too muchJust to ask for love, cause
(43:46):
there's many things that I'll doover, and I've got a lot, but I
won't give up On those manythings that I'll do over.
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