February 15, 2023 • 30 mins
René Marie is a Grammy nominated jazz vocalist and songwriter. In this episode we talk with René about music and art as a form of communication and explore the idea of the artist's response to conflict.
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Rene Marie (00:07):
An artist can't just put your creativity out there and
tell the public just deal with it.
I don't think that's right.
I think if we are going to be creativein ways that do disturb, then we
have to face the results of that.
It's not courageous, it's not fearlessif you just do it and walk away.
Sam Fuqua (00:34):
That's Rene Marie, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
On this episode, we talk with Rene Marieabout an artist's response to conflict.
(00:59):
She is a songwriter and singer.
She's recorded almost a dozen albums,including Sound of Red, which was
nominated for a 2016 Grammy Award inthe Best Jazz Vocal Album category.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:17):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:19):
And we are so happy to be joined for this edition
of Well, That Went Sideways!
By Renee Marie.
Welcome.
Rene Marie (01:25):
Thank you very much.
I'm so happy to be here.
Sam Fuqua (01:29):
I wanted to start with just asking you about how you
started your singing career becauseyou started later than most people.
You were in your forties, right?
Rene Marie (01:38):
I was in my forties when I started getting paid to sing.
Sam Fuqua (01:41):
Okay.
Rene Marie (01:41):
I'll put it like that.
Sam Fuqua (01:43):
In terms of taking that leap to...
Rene Marie (01:45):
Mm-hmm...
Sam Fuqua (01:46):
...being a professional singer, was there any internal
conflict that you had to deal with?
Rene Marie (01:52):
No, there wasn't any conflict.
There was a lot of ignorance.
And I didn't know what I was doing.
In fact, I didn't have a plan.
I just started singing because one daymy son heard, uh uh, a singer singing
the songs that I would sing at home.
She was on stage with a band andhe thought I could do a better
(02:14):
job, and he talked me into,uh, starting to sing in public.
My husband, uh, also thought it was agood idea, so I just like on a whim,
just, was no forethought, there was noplan, there was no, nothing like that.
(02:35):
It was just," La-la-la-la-laI think I'm gonna sing."
Kinda like that.
Really.
And the more I got into it, themore I realized that this was
a form of communication I hadkinda let go by the wayside.
It was another language actually,that I could communicate with
(02:57):
much better than any other wayof communicating that I have.
So that was how it happened.
And then people would ask me,"Well, what's your five year plan?"
And, which point I would laugh,not in their face, but I would
laugh because I was like, Idon't even have a five day plan.
I don't know what you're talking about.
(03:19):
And it turns out I'm a person whomakes decisions by how I feel about
things inside rather than having thisplan written out on a piece of paper.
You know what I mean, Sam?
Sam Fuqua (03:32):
I do.
I, I think sometimes that works for me.
Other times I wish I had a plan.
Rene Marie (03:38):
Mm-hmm.
I found that by not having a plan,I was stepping into all these
big puddles of joy, you know.
Not having the plan allowed me to lookat a doorway or a path and go, mmm,
no, I don't think I'm gonna do that.
(03:59):
Even if it might have been theconventional route to go to get
where I ended up coming, but Ijust didn't wanna go that route.
It didn't feel right.
Or sometimes it would belike the only obvious choice.
Like the universe was pointing,like, do this, do this, do this.
Sam Fuqua (04:20):
Did you run into any conflict with people in the,
the business side of the musicbusiness who wished you had a plan?
Rene Marie (04:27):
All the time.
All the time.
It's still that way.
I just don't do it according to plan.
I ran into conflict with my, myhusband because he at first said it
was okay for me to sing, and thenhe said, "No, I'm, changed my mind.
You can't sing."
(04:49):
So there was a back and forth overa period of two years of conflict,
and some of it was, um, very, what'sthe word I'm trying to think of?
It was intense.
I'll put it that way.
Sam Fuqua (05:09):
Like abusive, intense or?
Rene Marie (05:12):
There was plenty of verbal, verbal abuse and it ended the last day
of our being together, uh, ended inphysical a, abuse because I was supposed
to go to the studio the following dayto record my very first CD and he told
(05:32):
me that I could not go and if I did goand came back home, that I would, could
expect to experience some physical abuse.
And, I thought for a few seconds,and then I picked up my music and
stuff and tried to leave, but, um, Iwill, he prevented me from leaving.
(05:57):
Um, and then when it was allover, I picked up my stuff again
and um, and walked out the door.
My music, and a few of my clothes and,and we started recording the next day.
(06:17):
Now, if somebody had asked me threemonths prior to that, "Hey, uh, do
you think you would ever leave yourhusband and leave your home for music?"
I would've said, "No, of course not."
But, it wasn't so much the musicthat I was leaving home for.
(06:40):
It was having been given anultimatum, like, if you do this,
you come back, I'm gonna do that.
Or, you just try it and see what happens.
It was that type of thing.
And I thought, I don't wanna livewith anybody, parents, sibling,
child, husband, who thinks it'sokay to give ultimatums like that.
(07:05):
Who, who wants to live like that?
Not me.
Even if it meant somebody said,well, if you leave, you'll
never be able to sing again.
Okay, fine.
Because I'm not gonna live like this.
Alexis Miles (07:17):
Did you always have that strength of conviction and, and I'm
wondering if growing up in Jim CrowVirginia for your first ten years...
Rene Marie (07:29):
Mm-hmm...
Alexis Miles (07:29):
...has anything to do with that?
Rene Marie (07:31):
I think I've always had a very strong sense of justice and of what's
right and what's wrong, what's unfair.
I've always had that.
And not just as it applied to me, butto other people, and I would often
come to the defense of people whowere too shy or some other reason why
(07:55):
they wouldn't stand up for themselves.
And I would stand up for them, you know.
I would get into fights, not becausesomebody was picking on me, but because
they were picking on a friend of mineor a handicapped kid or, you know, and,
uh, I would use my words and if thatdidn't work, then I would use whatever
(08:17):
else was at my disposal, includinga pocketbook in the fourth grade.
I remember using that as a weapon.
Alexis Miles (08:28):
Renee, I noticed that you, you talk a lot about honesty
and truth and inner guidance.
And I wanna talk a little bit about 2008and how those qualities came into play.
And so, of course, I'm referringto your invi, invitation to sing...
Rene Marie (08:48):
yeah.
Alexis Miles (08:48):
...um, at an event where the mayor was scheduled to speak, and
I think you were asked to sing the StarSpangled Banner, and you, you use the, the
melody, but you substituted the lyrics.
So you used the lyrics of Lift EveryVoice and Sing, also known as the
Black or the Negro national anthem, tothe tune of the Star Spangled Banner.
(09:11):
There was a lot of fallout from that.
So could you...
Rene Marie (09:14):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (09:14):
...talk about that as it relates to those qualities
you often speak of, you know,truth, justice, joy, guidance.
Rene Marie (09:23):
I had written a suite called Voice of My Beautiful Country, and in
that suite, the third movement of it,it was the song you just described.
The melody to the national anthem, butthe lyrics from Lift Every Voice and Sing.
And I had decided that I wouldno longer sing either one of
(09:49):
those songs the conventional way.
Like I would no longer sing Lift EveryVoice and Sing by its original melody.
And the same with the national anthem.
(10:23):
Lift every voice and sing
Till earth and heaven ring,
Ring with the harmonies of Liberty.
And, a few months prior to singingat the Mayor's State of the City
(10:44):
Address, I sang at the Governor'sBreakfast, and all I brought was a
djembe and I sang a couple of songs andone of them was that third movement.
And at the end of the event, someonefrom the, the mayor's office came up
(11:08):
to me with a business card and said,"We would like for you to sing at the
Mayor's State of the City Address."
So since I had just sung the songthat he heard, and then they asked
me to sing it, to sing at the Stateof the City, I was thinking, okay,
(11:29):
they know what this is all about.
I'm, I'm happy to do it.
But as the date got closer, Istarted feeling some fear, and you
know, me and fear, we have a unusualrelationship because I embrace the fear.
(11:51):
I don't try to get rid ofthe fear or calm the fear.
I feel all this energy, you know, fearis this, but it doesn't always have
to go the way fear wants you to go.
You can take that same energy anddo some amazing things, and that
was what I decided to do, was totake the fear, and I, I had a long
(12:14):
conversation with um, Vincent Harding.
Oh, that was so helpful.
He said, "Don't shrink back!
Don't shrink back!
Move forward.
Even if you fall, fall forward."
You know?
So I was nervous about it becauseI didn't know how it was gonna go.
(12:35):
I wasn't trying to, um, makea point or anything like that.
It just was my personal truththat black people had never been
included in anything as it relatesto what represents this country.
(12:58):
Never.
We always had to fight, struggle, protest,die, in order to get our voices heard.
And I wanted to sing a song thatreflected what we have been through.
There were five or six religiousrepresentations on that days, and
(13:23):
each one said their own prayer.
I noted that and I was like,okay, yeah, this is right.
I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm, I'mdoing the right thing.
So, um, it was very important to me tostay true to what I had originally decided
(13:44):
well before there was an audience in frontof me, or the mayor was standing there
and there were, you know what I mean?
There was, the color guard was there.
Those things had to disappear for meand may stick true to myself because if
I had done anything else, it would'vebeen to try to get someone's approval,
(14:11):
and, and I don't want my art to ever bebased on that, whose approval I can get.
Alexis Miles (14:17):
Part of that story that is fascinating to me is the
fact that you got a lot of emails.
Rene Marie (14:23):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (14:24):
And a lot of it quite hateful.
Rene Marie (14:26):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (14:27):
And you made a decision to respond to every email that you got, even
though it took you a long time to do.
Rene Marie (14:33):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (14:33):
Could you talk about what made you make that decision?
Rene Marie (14:39):
This all happened in one day.
We did the thing in the morning.
Someone on City Council, CharlieBrown, went to his office afterwards,
he was fuming and he said, "Whatis this song that she sang?"
And the reason I know this isbecause one of the interns in
his office told us what happened.
(15:00):
And so she told him it's calledthe Black National Anthem.
He took those two words, blacknational, and he called the
conservative radio station.
And of course, he goesdown there, they call me.
It was around 1:00 PM by this time.
They called me and asked me if I'mgonna, if I would like to come down
(15:23):
there and talk, and I said, "Who is this?
And what do you, I don't get it."
Then they told me, well, we heardyou did this, this, and this,
and we'd like for you to comedown and express your viewpoint.
And I thought, no, you're not asking meto come down to express my viewpoint.
What you wanna do is attack me.
I didn't say that, but I knew that.
(15:44):
And I said, no, I don't think so.
So the mayor called me and said, "Hey,we are getting bombarded with emails
and phone calls regarding what you did."
Now he says, "I don't have any problemwith it, but we can't get our work
done because of all these phone calls."
(16:05):
And I, right away I said, "Well,you're not responsible for what I did.
So whoever calls, give them my phonenumber and if they email, here's my
email address, because I'm responsiblefor, for answering to what any questions
they may have about what I did."
And that's, that's how it came about.
I didn't think it would be, um, youknow, something that big of a deal.
(16:33):
But girl, you know, you take these, um,highly revered emblems of what people
want to believe America is and justthrow a little bit of question at it.
People, um, will sh, willreally show who they are.
(16:55):
Facing the rising sun of our new day begun
(17:16):
Let us march on till victory is won
Yes Lord, is won.
(17:38):
And so, yeah, I, I, I decided anartist can't just put, you can't just
put your creativity out there andtell the public just deal with it.
I don't think that's right.
I think if we are going to be creativein ways that do disturb, then we
(17:59):
have to face the results of that.
It's not courageous, it's not fearless,if you just do it and walk away, and
let someone else handle the stuffthat you deliberately stirred up.
It's not fair.
I don't think it's right.
(18:19):
So I wanted to, I wanted to, um, showresponsibility and accountability.
I know I have accountability.
I decided to write a song about adultery,and go into great detail in the song, then
I have to be willing to deal with it afterthe song is over, concert's over, and
(18:40):
somebody's looking in my face and they're,they've been stirred up because of their
own involvement in, in one way or another.
You did what I'm saying?
That's my opinion, and I wantedto face the music, so to speak.
I wanted people to tell me their honestfeelings and some of it was quite painful.
(19:01):
Some of it was extremely puzzling.
And some of the people were just callingto see if I would answer the phone.
I had one of the best conversationswith an elderly white man who dialed
my number, I answered, and he wasstumbling all over himself at first,
"Well, is this, uh, is this Rene?"
(19:25):
I said, "Yes."
He said, "Well, I didn'tthink you were gonna answer."
And, and, uh, we ha we musthave talked 20 minutes.
He told me he was in the service.
These were the conversations thatreally opened my eyes and then my
heart, because I thought, Rene, you,you have really touched something here.
(19:52):
I didn't quite know what it was, butI knew I couldn't turn away from it
or run from it, or say somebody elseanswer them, or just use a stock answer.
I tried to direct my responsesexactly to what they were saying.
I tried not to try to come acrosslike I'm right in having done this.
(20:14):
You're wrong.
You're, got small minded.
I, I didn't wanna have that viewpoint.
I wanted to be able to say, we allhave our own way of looking at things.
I just happened to be an artist and thiswas how I wanted to express what had
happened to me and other people of colorand how we have never had any say so in
(20:36):
the representation of American ideals.
We've never, so this is justone little song, you know.
It's not trying to change the world.
I just wanted to express this one thing.
You know, in talking about it, I can feelthe tension in my body because it was, it
(20:58):
was a woo, unexpected and very intense.
Alexis Miles (21:07):
If I remember correctly, even Barack Obama weighed in on
it when he was running for...
Rene Marie (21:12):
Didn't he though?
Alexis Miles (21:13):
...the presidency.
Rene Marie (21:17):
He sure did.
They did not ask, uh, JohnMcCain, they didn't ask him.
They only asked Obama, whichI thought, I'm like, what?
Why you ask Obama?
Why can't you ask McCain too?
Well, we know the reason why.
And, and it just hurt my feelings,what Obama said, but I understood.
(21:38):
I understood.
Do you remember what he said?
Alexis Miles (21:41):
He, if I remember correctly, he said, if they asked you
to sing a song, you should have sangthat song or something like that.
Rene Marie (21:48):
Yep, that's what he said?
Yeah.
Like, oh man.
Alexis Miles (21:53):
Rene, part of the irony about that for me is the beauty of the
lyrics of Lift Every Voice and Sing.
Rene Marie (22:00):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (22:01):
Till earth and heaven ring.
Rene Marie (22:03):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (22:03):
It's a, the lyrics are beautiful and profound.
Rene Marie (22:07):
They are.
They're profound.
But the context was a black woman singinga song written by another black person.
And the, like you said,the lyrics are beautiful.
A, another thing I got in many ofthe emails was this perspective,
(22:30):
"Hey, you were hired to sing a songand you should not have changed
the song you were gonna sing."
And I always would ask them, what ifI had, instead of singing Lift every
Voice, I had sung America the Beautiful?
Then would you have been upset?
And of course the answer will, "Well, no."
(22:54):
So then it's not the fact that I changedthe song, it's just that I actually
sang the lyrics to a different song.
And why does that bother you?
So I would try to use, you know, searchingquestions to get them to maybe look
(23:17):
at it a different way, if possible.
Alexis Miles (23:21):
Were there some moments of transformation for the person you
were talking to, um, or for yourself?
You mentioned one when you weretalking to the older white gentleman.
Rene Marie (23:32):
There were some who calmed down, uh, as a result of,
of me answering their questions.
And they, their response was,"Oh, I didn't think about that."
Or, "Oh, I didn't know that."
"Oh, okay."
Uh, but none that I could, Icould actually point to and
say this changed someone.
(23:53):
It was just those types of remarks.
But here's the one, the one response,it was a email that hurt me to my core.
It was sent by a young black man.
He said, "Why do you old black peoplealways have to go back to the past?
(24:20):
This is 2008," he said.
I was just shocked beyond.
At first I was like old,who are you calling old?
But that phrase, old black people,you know, it brought up this imagery
(24:44):
of me singing spirituals out inthe field, when he said that.
Uh, really it did, and I was hurt by that.
And I know why he said it, because Obamawas running for office and it did seem
like, for some people, it seemed like,oh, we finally got over that hill.
(25:04):
We got this behind us.
We don't have to worry about this anymore.
And some of the rest of us were,you know, fanning and going, mmm,
I don't know about that, you know.
And I think that's whathe was referring to.
You know, we gotta keep stirring the pot.
Why don't you just, you oldblack people, ooh, that hurt me.
(25:27):
Um, and then there were some, uh,emails I got that were very to the,
short and to the point that said,your itinerary is on your website.
I know exactly where you'regonna be at such and such a time.
Do you know how easy itwould be to just shoot you?
(25:47):
And that caused me to have a meetingwith my band, and I said, "Look, y'all.
We are living in some difficult times.
Here's what someone wrote,and it's not just one threat.
I've gotten several of these.
Um, I'm willing, I wrote the songso I'm willing to get up there and
(26:12):
sing it regardless of what happens,but I can't ask you to do it."
And two, all three of themsaid, "Oh no, we are with you.
We are with you 100 percent."
And so before, if, if I put thatsong on our, uh, set list, before
(26:32):
getting up on the stage, I would belike, okay, this could be the night.
I don't know.
But I would rather, I would rathergo down singing something I believe
in than holding back out of fear.
Sam Fuqua (26:51):
Because this was such an intense, uh, experience and
both the response to these many,many critics and then a direct
threat of physical violence, uh...
Rene Marie (27:03):
Mm-hmm.
Sam Fuqua (27:04):
...did it make you think twice about pushing the boundary or
crossing the line as an artist...
Rene Marie (27:09):
No.
Sam Fuqua (27:09):
...later in your career?
Rene Marie (27:11):
No, because, you know, hey, black people have been
threatened with violence justfor walking down the damn street.
So why should I think that if Istop, if I don't do this song anymore,
everything's gonna be just fine?
You know, our very existence isa reason for some people to kill
(27:35):
us, to their way of thinking.
So I can't change that.
I can't change that.
What I can do is write songsabout it and sing about it.
And you know, my nieces and my nephews,my sons, my siblings, leave something
(27:58):
for them to, I don't know, remember.
Sam Fuqua (28:03):
Well, thank you so much for your time and your music, and you're
so open and thoughtful with us today.
Rene Marie (28:08):
Uh, thank you both.
Uh, you've given me a lot to think about.
(28:39):
I can't compete.
I can't be a good girl and singstandards all nice and sweet.
Yes, I know what swing is, butfor me, that thing is incomplete.
And I mean it, I won't compete.
Sam Fuqua (29:00):
That's Rene Marie with her song This for Joe from her
album, Black Lace Freudian Slip.
You can hear more at herwebsite, renemarie.com.
(29:22):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(29:45):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(30:06):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
An artist can't just put your creativity out there and
tell the public just deal with it.
I don't think that's right.
I think if we are going to be creativein ways that do disturb, then we
have to face the results of that.
It's not courageous, it's not fearlessif you just do it and walk away.
Sam Fuqua (00:34):
That's Rene Marie, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
On this episode, we talk with Rene Marieabout an artist's response to conflict.
(00:59):
She is a songwriter and singer.
She's recorded almost a dozen albums,including Sound of Red, which was
nominated for a 2016 Grammy Award inthe Best Jazz Vocal Album category.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:17):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:19):
And we are so happy to be joined for this edition
of Well, That Went Sideways!
By Renee Marie.
Welcome.
Rene Marie (01:25):
Thank you very much.
I'm so happy to be here.
Sam Fuqua (01:29):
I wanted to start with just asking you about how you
started your singing career becauseyou started later than most people.
You were in your forties, right?
Rene Marie (01:38):
I was in my forties when I started getting paid to sing.
Sam Fuqua (01:41):
Okay.
Rene Marie (01:41):
I'll put it like that.
Sam Fuqua (01:43):
In terms of taking that leap to...
Rene Marie (01:45):
Mm-hmm...
Sam Fuqua (01:46):
...being a professional singer, was there any internal
conflict that you had to deal with?
Rene Marie (01:52):
No, there wasn't any conflict.
There was a lot of ignorance.
And I didn't know what I was doing.
In fact, I didn't have a plan.
I just started singing because one daymy son heard, uh uh, a singer singing
the songs that I would sing at home.
She was on stage with a band andhe thought I could do a better
(02:14):
job, and he talked me into,uh, starting to sing in public.
My husband, uh, also thought it was agood idea, so I just like on a whim,
just, was no forethought, there was noplan, there was no, nothing like that.
(02:35):
It was just," La-la-la-la-laI think I'm gonna sing."
Kinda like that.
Really.
And the more I got into it, themore I realized that this was
a form of communication I hadkinda let go by the wayside.
It was another language actually,that I could communicate with
(02:57):
much better than any other wayof communicating that I have.
So that was how it happened.
And then people would ask me,"Well, what's your five year plan?"
And, which point I would laugh,not in their face, but I would
laugh because I was like, Idon't even have a five day plan.
I don't know what you're talking about.
(03:19):
And it turns out I'm a person whomakes decisions by how I feel about
things inside rather than having thisplan written out on a piece of paper.
You know what I mean, Sam?
Sam Fuqua (03:32):
I do.
I, I think sometimes that works for me.
Other times I wish I had a plan.
Rene Marie (03:38):
Mm-hmm.
I found that by not having a plan,I was stepping into all these
big puddles of joy, you know.
Not having the plan allowed me to lookat a doorway or a path and go, mmm,
no, I don't think I'm gonna do that.
(03:59):
Even if it might have been theconventional route to go to get
where I ended up coming, but Ijust didn't wanna go that route.
It didn't feel right.
Or sometimes it would belike the only obvious choice.
Like the universe was pointing,like, do this, do this, do this.
Sam Fuqua (04:20):
Did you run into any conflict with people in the,
the business side of the musicbusiness who wished you had a plan?
Rene Marie (04:27):
All the time.
All the time.
It's still that way.
I just don't do it according to plan.
I ran into conflict with my, myhusband because he at first said it
was okay for me to sing, and thenhe said, "No, I'm, changed my mind.
You can't sing."
(04:49):
So there was a back and forth overa period of two years of conflict,
and some of it was, um, very, what'sthe word I'm trying to think of?
It was intense.
I'll put it that way.
Sam Fuqua (05:09):
Like abusive, intense or?
Rene Marie (05:12):
There was plenty of verbal, verbal abuse and it ended the last day
of our being together, uh, ended inphysical a, abuse because I was supposed
to go to the studio the following dayto record my very first CD and he told
(05:32):
me that I could not go and if I did goand came back home, that I would, could
expect to experience some physical abuse.
And, I thought for a few seconds,and then I picked up my music and
stuff and tried to leave, but, um, Iwill, he prevented me from leaving.
(05:57):
Um, and then when it was allover, I picked up my stuff again
and um, and walked out the door.
My music, and a few of my clothes and,and we started recording the next day.
(06:17):
Now, if somebody had asked me threemonths prior to that, "Hey, uh, do
you think you would ever leave yourhusband and leave your home for music?"
I would've said, "No, of course not."
But, it wasn't so much the musicthat I was leaving home for.
(06:40):
It was having been given anultimatum, like, if you do this,
you come back, I'm gonna do that.
Or, you just try it and see what happens.
It was that type of thing.
And I thought, I don't wanna livewith anybody, parents, sibling,
child, husband, who thinks it'sokay to give ultimatums like that.
(07:05):
Who, who wants to live like that?
Not me.
Even if it meant somebody said,well, if you leave, you'll
never be able to sing again.
Okay, fine.
Because I'm not gonna live like this.
Alexis Miles (07:17):
Did you always have that strength of conviction and, and I'm
wondering if growing up in Jim CrowVirginia for your first ten years...
Rene Marie (07:29):
Mm-hmm...
Alexis Miles (07:29):
...has anything to do with that?
Rene Marie (07:31):
I think I've always had a very strong sense of justice and of what's
right and what's wrong, what's unfair.
I've always had that.
And not just as it applied to me, butto other people, and I would often
come to the defense of people whowere too shy or some other reason why
(07:55):
they wouldn't stand up for themselves.
And I would stand up for them, you know.
I would get into fights, not becausesomebody was picking on me, but because
they were picking on a friend of mineor a handicapped kid or, you know, and,
uh, I would use my words and if thatdidn't work, then I would use whatever
(08:17):
else was at my disposal, includinga pocketbook in the fourth grade.
I remember using that as a weapon.
Alexis Miles (08:28):
Renee, I noticed that you, you talk a lot about honesty
and truth and inner guidance.
And I wanna talk a little bit about 2008and how those qualities came into play.
And so, of course, I'm referringto your invi, invitation to sing...
Rene Marie (08:48):
yeah.
Alexis Miles (08:48):
...um, at an event where the mayor was scheduled to speak, and
I think you were asked to sing the StarSpangled Banner, and you, you use the, the
melody, but you substituted the lyrics.
So you used the lyrics of Lift EveryVoice and Sing, also known as the
Black or the Negro national anthem, tothe tune of the Star Spangled Banner.
(09:11):
There was a lot of fallout from that.
So could you...
Rene Marie (09:14):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (09:14):
...talk about that as it relates to those qualities
you often speak of, you know,truth, justice, joy, guidance.
Rene Marie (09:23):
I had written a suite called Voice of My Beautiful Country, and in
that suite, the third movement of it,it was the song you just described.
The melody to the national anthem, butthe lyrics from Lift Every Voice and Sing.
And I had decided that I wouldno longer sing either one of
(09:49):
those songs the conventional way.
Like I would no longer sing Lift EveryVoice and Sing by its original melody.
And the same with the national anthem.
(10:23):
Lift every voice and sing
Till earth and heaven ring,
Ring with the harmonies of Liberty.
And, a few months prior to singingat the Mayor's State of the City
(10:44):
Address, I sang at the Governor'sBreakfast, and all I brought was a
djembe and I sang a couple of songs andone of them was that third movement.
And at the end of the event, someonefrom the, the mayor's office came up
(11:08):
to me with a business card and said,"We would like for you to sing at the
Mayor's State of the City Address."
So since I had just sung the songthat he heard, and then they asked
me to sing it, to sing at the Stateof the City, I was thinking, okay,
(11:29):
they know what this is all about.
I'm, I'm happy to do it.
But as the date got closer, Istarted feeling some fear, and you
know, me and fear, we have a unusualrelationship because I embrace the fear.
(11:51):
I don't try to get rid ofthe fear or calm the fear.
I feel all this energy, you know, fearis this, but it doesn't always have
to go the way fear wants you to go.
You can take that same energy anddo some amazing things, and that
was what I decided to do, was totake the fear, and I, I had a long
(12:14):
conversation with um, Vincent Harding.
Oh, that was so helpful.
He said, "Don't shrink back!
Don't shrink back!
Move forward.
Even if you fall, fall forward."
You know?
So I was nervous about it becauseI didn't know how it was gonna go.
(12:35):
I wasn't trying to, um, makea point or anything like that.
It just was my personal truththat black people had never been
included in anything as it relatesto what represents this country.
(12:58):
Never.
We always had to fight, struggle, protest,die, in order to get our voices heard.
And I wanted to sing a song thatreflected what we have been through.
There were five or six religiousrepresentations on that days, and
(13:23):
each one said their own prayer.
I noted that and I was like,okay, yeah, this is right.
I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm, I'mdoing the right thing.
So, um, it was very important to me tostay true to what I had originally decided
(13:44):
well before there was an audience in frontof me, or the mayor was standing there
and there were, you know what I mean?
There was, the color guard was there.
Those things had to disappear for meand may stick true to myself because if
I had done anything else, it would'vebeen to try to get someone's approval,
(14:11):
and, and I don't want my art to ever bebased on that, whose approval I can get.
Alexis Miles (14:17):
Part of that story that is fascinating to me is the
fact that you got a lot of emails.
Rene Marie (14:23):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (14:24):
And a lot of it quite hateful.
Rene Marie (14:26):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (14:27):
And you made a decision to respond to every email that you got, even
though it took you a long time to do.
Rene Marie (14:33):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (14:33):
Could you talk about what made you make that decision?
Rene Marie (14:39):
This all happened in one day.
We did the thing in the morning.
Someone on City Council, CharlieBrown, went to his office afterwards,
he was fuming and he said, "Whatis this song that she sang?"
And the reason I know this isbecause one of the interns in
his office told us what happened.
(15:00):
And so she told him it's calledthe Black National Anthem.
He took those two words, blacknational, and he called the
conservative radio station.
And of course, he goesdown there, they call me.
It was around 1:00 PM by this time.
They called me and asked me if I'mgonna, if I would like to come down
(15:23):
there and talk, and I said, "Who is this?
And what do you, I don't get it."
Then they told me, well, we heardyou did this, this, and this,
and we'd like for you to comedown and express your viewpoint.
And I thought, no, you're not asking meto come down to express my viewpoint.
What you wanna do is attack me.
I didn't say that, but I knew that.
(15:44):
And I said, no, I don't think so.
So the mayor called me and said, "Hey,we are getting bombarded with emails
and phone calls regarding what you did."
Now he says, "I don't have any problemwith it, but we can't get our work
done because of all these phone calls."
(16:05):
And I, right away I said, "Well,you're not responsible for what I did.
So whoever calls, give them my phonenumber and if they email, here's my
email address, because I'm responsiblefor, for answering to what any questions
they may have about what I did."
And that's, that's how it came about.
I didn't think it would be, um, youknow, something that big of a deal.
(16:33):
But girl, you know, you take these, um,highly revered emblems of what people
want to believe America is and justthrow a little bit of question at it.
People, um, will sh, willreally show who they are.
(16:55):
Facing the rising sun of our new day begun
(17:16):
Let us march on till victory is won
Yes Lord, is won.
(17:38):
And so, yeah, I, I, I decided anartist can't just put, you can't just
put your creativity out there andtell the public just deal with it.
I don't think that's right.
I think if we are going to be creativein ways that do disturb, then we
(17:59):
have to face the results of that.
It's not courageous, it's not fearless,if you just do it and walk away, and
let someone else handle the stuffthat you deliberately stirred up.
It's not fair.
I don't think it's right.
(18:19):
So I wanted to, I wanted to, um, showresponsibility and accountability.
I know I have accountability.
I decided to write a song about adultery,and go into great detail in the song, then
I have to be willing to deal with it afterthe song is over, concert's over, and
(18:40):
somebody's looking in my face and they're,they've been stirred up because of their
own involvement in, in one way or another.
You did what I'm saying?
That's my opinion, and I wantedto face the music, so to speak.
I wanted people to tell me their honestfeelings and some of it was quite painful.
(19:01):
Some of it was extremely puzzling.
And some of the people were just callingto see if I would answer the phone.
I had one of the best conversationswith an elderly white man who dialed
my number, I answered, and he wasstumbling all over himself at first,
"Well, is this, uh, is this Rene?"
(19:25):
I said, "Yes."
He said, "Well, I didn'tthink you were gonna answer."
And, and, uh, we ha we musthave talked 20 minutes.
He told me he was in the service.
These were the conversations thatreally opened my eyes and then my
heart, because I thought, Rene, you,you have really touched something here.
(19:52):
I didn't quite know what it was, butI knew I couldn't turn away from it
or run from it, or say somebody elseanswer them, or just use a stock answer.
I tried to direct my responsesexactly to what they were saying.
I tried not to try to come acrosslike I'm right in having done this.
(20:14):
You're wrong.
You're, got small minded.
I, I didn't wanna have that viewpoint.
I wanted to be able to say, we allhave our own way of looking at things.
I just happened to be an artist and thiswas how I wanted to express what had
happened to me and other people of colorand how we have never had any say so in
(20:36):
the representation of American ideals.
We've never, so this is justone little song, you know.
It's not trying to change the world.
I just wanted to express this one thing.
You know, in talking about it, I can feelthe tension in my body because it was, it
(20:58):
was a woo, unexpected and very intense.
Alexis Miles (21:07):
If I remember correctly, even Barack Obama weighed in on
it when he was running for...
Rene Marie (21:12):
Didn't he though?
Alexis Miles (21:13):
...the presidency.
Rene Marie (21:17):
He sure did.
They did not ask, uh, JohnMcCain, they didn't ask him.
They only asked Obama, whichI thought, I'm like, what?
Why you ask Obama?
Why can't you ask McCain too?
Well, we know the reason why.
And, and it just hurt my feelings,what Obama said, but I understood.
(21:38):
I understood.
Do you remember what he said?
Alexis Miles (21:41):
He, if I remember correctly, he said, if they asked you
to sing a song, you should have sangthat song or something like that.
Rene Marie (21:48):
Yep, that's what he said?
Yeah.
Like, oh man.
Alexis Miles (21:53):
Rene, part of the irony about that for me is the beauty of the
lyrics of Lift Every Voice and Sing.
Rene Marie (22:00):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (22:01):
Till earth and heaven ring.
Rene Marie (22:03):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (22:03):
It's a, the lyrics are beautiful and profound.
Rene Marie (22:07):
They are.
They're profound.
But the context was a black woman singinga song written by another black person.
And the, like you said,the lyrics are beautiful.
A, another thing I got in many ofthe emails was this perspective,
(22:30):
"Hey, you were hired to sing a songand you should not have changed
the song you were gonna sing."
And I always would ask them, what ifI had, instead of singing Lift every
Voice, I had sung America the Beautiful?
Then would you have been upset?
And of course the answer will, "Well, no."
(22:54):
So then it's not the fact that I changedthe song, it's just that I actually
sang the lyrics to a different song.
And why does that bother you?
So I would try to use, you know, searchingquestions to get them to maybe look
(23:17):
at it a different way, if possible.
Alexis Miles (23:21):
Were there some moments of transformation for the person you
were talking to, um, or for yourself?
You mentioned one when you weretalking to the older white gentleman.
Rene Marie (23:32):
There were some who calmed down, uh, as a result of,
of me answering their questions.
And they, their response was,"Oh, I didn't think about that."
Or, "Oh, I didn't know that."
"Oh, okay."
Uh, but none that I could, Icould actually point to and
say this changed someone.
(23:53):
It was just those types of remarks.
But here's the one, the one response,it was a email that hurt me to my core.
It was sent by a young black man.
He said, "Why do you old black peoplealways have to go back to the past?
(24:20):
This is 2008," he said.
I was just shocked beyond.
At first I was like old,who are you calling old?
But that phrase, old black people,you know, it brought up this imagery
(24:44):
of me singing spirituals out inthe field, when he said that.
Uh, really it did, and I was hurt by that.
And I know why he said it, because Obamawas running for office and it did seem
like, for some people, it seemed like,oh, we finally got over that hill.
(25:04):
We got this behind us.
We don't have to worry about this anymore.
And some of the rest of us were,you know, fanning and going, mmm,
I don't know about that, you know.
And I think that's whathe was referring to.
You know, we gotta keep stirring the pot.
Why don't you just, you oldblack people, ooh, that hurt me.
(25:27):
Um, and then there were some, uh,emails I got that were very to the,
short and to the point that said,your itinerary is on your website.
I know exactly where you'regonna be at such and such a time.
Do you know how easy itwould be to just shoot you?
(25:47):
And that caused me to have a meetingwith my band, and I said, "Look, y'all.
We are living in some difficult times.
Here's what someone wrote,and it's not just one threat.
I've gotten several of these.
Um, I'm willing, I wrote the songso I'm willing to get up there and
(26:12):
sing it regardless of what happens,but I can't ask you to do it."
And two, all three of themsaid, "Oh no, we are with you.
We are with you 100 percent."
And so before, if, if I put thatsong on our, uh, set list, before
(26:32):
getting up on the stage, I would belike, okay, this could be the night.
I don't know.
But I would rather, I would rathergo down singing something I believe
in than holding back out of fear.
Sam Fuqua (26:51):
Because this was such an intense, uh, experience and
both the response to these many,many critics and then a direct
threat of physical violence, uh...
Rene Marie (27:03):
Mm-hmm.
Sam Fuqua (27:04):
...did it make you think twice about pushing the boundary or
crossing the line as an artist...
Rene Marie (27:09):
No.
Sam Fuqua (27:09):
...later in your career?
Rene Marie (27:11):
No, because, you know, hey, black people have been
threatened with violence justfor walking down the damn street.
So why should I think that if Istop, if I don't do this song anymore,
everything's gonna be just fine?
You know, our very existence isa reason for some people to kill
(27:35):
us, to their way of thinking.
So I can't change that.
I can't change that.
What I can do is write songsabout it and sing about it.
And you know, my nieces and my nephews,my sons, my siblings, leave something
(27:58):
for them to, I don't know, remember.
Sam Fuqua (28:03):
Well, thank you so much for your time and your music, and you're
so open and thoughtful with us today.
Rene Marie (28:08):
Uh, thank you both.
Uh, you've given me a lot to think about.
(28:39):
I can't compete.
I can't be a good girl and singstandards all nice and sweet.
Yes, I know what swing is, butfor me, that thing is incomplete.
And I mean it, I won't compete.
Sam Fuqua (29:00):
That's Rene Marie with her song This for Joe from her
album, Black Lace Freudian Slip.
You can hear more at herwebsite, renemarie.com.
(29:22):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(29:45):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(30:06):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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