July 16, 2023 • 37 mins
On this episode, we talk with Grace Gee about the healing power of art and storytelling. She is a Colorado-based artist, writer, and teacher, and much of our conversation centers on one of her recent projects called Bubbling Up. It's a public exhibit that invites members of the BIPOC community to write their stories of discrimination and injustice, and then non-BIPOC community members are invited to write a response.
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Grace Gee (00:08):
And in telling those stories, they understand that they are not alone
when they read the other stories andthey get to express, sometimes for
the first time, what has happened.
And that seems to be a very commonthing, is that people will say,
"I've never told this story before,and it's such a relief to tell it."
Sam Fuqua (00:31):
That's Grace Gee, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(00:51):
On this episode, we talk withGrace Gee about the healing
power of art and storytelling.
She is a Colorado-based artist,writer, and teacher, and much of our
conversation centers on one of herrecent projects called Bubbling Up.
It's a public exhibit that invitesmembers of the BIPOC community to write
(01:14):
their stories of discrimination andinjustice, and then non-BIPOC community
members are invited to write a response.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:29):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:31):
And we're so pleased to be joined for this edition
of Well, That Went Sideways!
By Grace Gee.
Hello.
Grace Gee (01:36):
Hi, Sam.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:38):
Hi, Grace.
Sam Fuqua (01:40):
Great to have you with us.
One of the ways you identifyyourself is as a Chinese Canadian.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour, your upbringing and how that
has influenced who you are today?
Grace Gee (01:51):
Sure.
I grew up in Canada, but I alsolived in Hong Kong in, uh, in my
teens, and I live in the US now.
And so I've traveled in Asia andCanada and the US quite a bit.
And I think the exposure I've had topeople and cultures, different cultures,
(02:12):
has really had me understand that nomatter what our circumstances are,
how we experience life is similar.
And so my, my art is influenced inthe, in that I feel like no matter
what the expression is, no matterwhat the circumstance that brought
(02:34):
me to pain or loss or joy, it isa shared, collective experience.
And so people can relate to, um, theart and the healing that happens.
Sam Fuqua (02:47):
Was Canada a good place to grow up for someone who's Chinese Canadian?
Grace Gee (02:52):
Uh, I think that it depends on, um, where you are, just like it
depends on where you are here in the US.
So I did live in some places thatwere, um, more difficult to live
in as a, as a Chinese person.
Um, and then places thatwere easier to live in.
And they really did shape me in terms ofwho I am and how I navigate the world.
(03:18):
A lot of the work that I'm doing rightnow currently is around diversity and
equity, inclusion and uh, healing racism.
So there is absolutely a direct connectionbetween my experiences and wanting to heal
that for myself and then wanting to offerthat to the collective to heal as well.
Sam Fuqua (03:42):
How do you use your art to heal racism?
Grace Gee (03:47):
That's a good question.
I started a social justice healingart project called Bubbling Up,
and I have fabricated these bubblelike forms for people to write
their stories of discrimination orharassment on, and they represent the
(04:09):
bubbles that some people who don'texperience that discrimination live in.
And so it really is about all thestuff that's bubbling up and also sort
of bursting that bubble through thisproject, allowing people who are not
part of the global majority to readthese stories and be touched by them,
(04:34):
to learn from them, and maybe evento find themselves in, within these
stories and realize perhaps wherethey have mistepped, unintentionally.
I think there's a lot of, a lot ofmicroaggressions aren't understood
to be microaggressions by boththe receiver and the giver.
(04:58):
And this project is one of those waysthat I can, can educate and inform.
So for me, this is an opportunityfor people to tell their stories.
And in telling those stories, theyunderstand that they are not alone
when they read the other stories andthey get to express, sometimes for
(05:23):
the first time, what has happened.
And that seems to be a very commonthing, is that people will say,
"I've never told this story before,and it's such a relief to tell it."
Alexis Miles (05:37):
Grace, when I hear you describe that project, it reminds me a
little bit of Me Too, the Me Too movement.
Because people telling this same storyover and over and over seems to give
it some weight, some gravitas, so thatlisteners begin to understand, oh, this is
not just Grace's story or Alexis's story.
(06:00):
This is a collective experience.
And they, it seems that it may,it helps people to address it as
something that's real and not justsomebody's individual response.
It, are you finding that?
Grace Gee (06:14):
I absolutely am, from both sides of the, um, storytelling.
So the people who are tellingthe story realize, oh, you other
people experience this too.
Because I think so many times when weface racism and discrimination, we think,
there's so much shame to it, right?
And so we, we isolate, we don't talk aboutit, and then we think that we're alone.
(06:39):
And to see your story told by anotherperson is community building, is healing,
and it creates this conversation, uh,amongst people who are participating.
That is really beautiful.
(07:00):
I think people do find community in that.
Alexis Miles (07:04):
And when a person walks in, so they walk in through
the door, could you describe whatthey see and what it looks like?
Grace Gee (07:12):
Sure.
I always have a little, uh, popup exhibit.
So I'll start with a few bubbles.
And, um, these bubbles range from probably14 inches to, you know, four inches.
So it's kind of like thatbubbling, you know, different
(07:33):
depths and different sizes.
And then people who are not writingstories have a, an opportunity
to respond on, um, an index card.
So like a three by six orfour by six inde, index card.
So those are interspersedwithin the bubbles.
And also I take pictures of the peoplewho write stories so that they, you
(07:56):
know, we can put a face to the story.
It's, it, it personalizes it.
So mixed in with the bubblesare faces and responses.
And I just have a little minisort of exhibit up so that people
know what they're walking intoand what they're contributing to.
That's visually what they see.
(08:17):
You know, I have a table with bubblesout and you know, I'm just inviting
people to come and read, and then ifthey're so inspired to write something.
Or two bubbles or 10 bubbles if they want.
Alexis Miles (08:30):
And what has been the response so far?
Grace Gee (08:34):
Uh, really positive.
A lot of people engage.
So I think there are definitelypeople who walk past, they do
not wanna engage in it at all.
And then there are people who, who wantto engage and they are, they are ones who
will write long stories on bubbles, youknow, or, or short stories on bubbles.
(08:59):
And in, so I always have a survey thatpeople fill out and it's been so positive.
I think, I think the number's somethinglike 78 percent of people who participate
in the um, in Bubbling Up say that theywould like to volunteer for either a story
gathering or making bubbles or puttingup an exhibit, uh, which is phenomenal.
(09:26):
And, um, I'm getting a lot ofpeople who are spreading the word.
So I think there's justa lot of engagement by a
self-selected group of people.
Let's just put it that way.
Sam Fuqua (09:41):
How did you come upon the bubble as the, the vehicle?
Which is whimsical, but also speaks to,you know, I live in Boulder, Colorado,
for example, down the road from you.
And we sometimes talk about the Boulderbubble, which as I interpret that is, uh,
people who are largely white and affluent,kind of living in a bubble separate
(10:05):
from the reality of, of our society.
And that's, uh, of course a,a very simplistic view of it.
But that's kind of one, uh, bubblemetaphor that is used in my town.
Grace Gee (10:17):
Yeah.
And you're exactly right.
That is exactly where that came from.
As well as, um, I think that when we stuffour trauma, when we don't deal with our
grief and our pain, it does bubble up.
It bubbles up in so many differentways, in big ways, in small ways.
(10:40):
It comes out when weleast expect it sometimes.
And so there's this bubblingup of this grief and also
of this anger and injustice.
So it's both, right?
It's, it's that stuff that bubblesup and it is bursting that bubble for
(11:00):
people who are not experiencing it,who, who have said to me, "There's
no racism in Boulder, is there?"
So I really felt like creating a projectlike this, uh, that visually you can
understand and is related to burstingthe bubble would be received well.
(11:23):
You get to read stories, youdon't, you're not lectured at.
There's no long book to re,like it's lived experience.
So you, you get to take in what you takein knowing that if you see a face, if
you recognize a person on the wall, youknow that their story's on the wall too.
And you don't know whose is whose.
(11:43):
So, I mean, this is what I wanted todo, was open up sort of what people
walk around with that's invisible.
Sam Fuqua (11:54):
Well, just to make this, uh, a little more real for our
listeners, can you, can you sharewith us one of the stories that,
uh, is in one of the bubbles, andperhaps a, a response to that story?
Grace Gee (12:06):
Absolutely, Sam.
Um, I have a few here.
One of them right here is very simple.
It says, "Why do you eatrice with everything?"
And that's, you know, there'sso much comment around food.
The smelliness or the non-smelliness.
The, what it is that we eat.
(12:26):
That's very, a very common theme.
Let me read this one, "I constantly feeltokenized at work as diversity, equity
and inclusion has become the next bigtrend to show off how progressive the
institution is, to recruit more students.
I am being invited to moremeetings just for show.
(12:49):
My voice remains in an echo chamber, andsys, systemic issues are never addressed.
Thank you for creatingthis space for community."
Can I read this one as well?
"At 15, I had a huge crushon a white friend who came
from a rich, affluent family.
(13:09):
He liked me back butdidn't want to date me.
I learned later that his parents didn'twant him to date me and preferred
him to date someone more appropriate,just, I mean, 'appropriate' despite
them telling me, uh, I was verybright, smart, and pretty girl.
I carried that with me for along time, uh, believing that I
(13:34):
would have to work twice as hardto overcome my 'disadvantages'
when really they were racist."
I have a couple, um, responses.
Sam Fuqua (13:45):
For the listener, to set the stage, uh, someone looking at the
bubbles, reading the story is theninvited to write their reaction on a card.
Grace Gee (13:54):
That's right.
Uh, here's one.
"I can't imagine the pain of notfeeling safe in your own home.
Of feeling targeted in this way.
I had a friend who grew up on a sheepfarm whose fam, family also had a rifle
at the front door to protect the sheep.
I can't imagine the terror of needingto protect the humans in this way.
I am so sorry."
(14:17):
This one speaks directlyto a specific bubble.
This one speaks moregenerally as an affirmation.
"Thank you for continuing totry to help us understand.
It must be exhausting and frustrating.
I don't understand.
This isn't my lived experience.
It isn't my sisters, mymother's, my family's experience.
(14:40):
Please keep trying to help me understand.
I want to understand.
I want to do better.
Hold me accountable."
So there's a range of responses.
Alexis Miles (14:53):
What strikes me, Grace, is that this project seems
to require people to be vulnerable.
And can you talk about the roleof vulnerability and healing?
Grace Gee (15:07):
Yeah, I, I think it's, um, I think it's critical.
I think without opening enough to be alittle bit vulnerable, we can't really
touch on the pain that needs healing.
And if we can't touch it,we can't go there, right?
We can't begin to shift itif we can't acknowledge it.
(15:30):
So it does absolutely require acertain level and people come in with
whatever they're comfortable with,this much or this much, and they
speak about it in their, the commentsection of the survey afterwards.
Sometimes it makes a big difference thatit's anonymous, that they don't, they can
(15:52):
tell their story and put it on the wall.
Excuse me.
Um, and then sometimes, um,sometimes I hear, I, I can't quite
do it, you know, like, I'm not, I'mnot comfortable writing a story.
And I always tell them they can send ina story anonymously on my website, and
(16:13):
I'll put their story on the, on a bubble.
And so I think it speaks to that, um,what I was talking about earlier, that
some people just walk by because itis too, too much and they can't do it.
But I want the opportunity to bethere, and then they get to choose
(16:35):
what, how, how vulnerable they are.
Sam Fuqua (16:39):
I'm interested in, in another part of your work, which is,
uh, helping people through transitions.
Uh, could be a, a transition of loss or atransition of birth or, I, I think if I'm,
uh, interpreting correctly, any major lifetransition, which all often brings up all
kinds of conflicts within us and withinour relationships with our loved ones.
(17:01):
Um, how do you approach that work?
What does it involve?
Can you talk about the, that, thatpart of, of what you're doing?
Grace Gee (17:08):
Sure.
Um, transition work really,um, deals with, as you said,
everything from birth to death.
The good, the, you know, "positive"transitions are still stressful.
And I use art, I use a number of differentsort of modalities within art to access
(17:34):
how we feel, and interpret what'sgoing on in a way that is empowering.
Sam Fuqua (17:42):
So that might be, uh, creating a, a work of visual art
that helps them to understand?
Grace Gee (17:48):
Yep.
It might be writing.
It might be creating visual art.
It might be movement.
It depends on what is, um, asked for.
Uh, we do, I do a lot of work withactually somatically, somatic work, and
asking yourself, asking your body whatis needed and then going from there.
(18:12):
So it's, it's very personalbecause it's not one size fits all.
Sam Fuqua (18:18):
Can you say a little bit more about that 'cause some folks
might not know the term "somatic work"and, and what the connection is there?
Grace Gee (18:26):
Sure.
So sometimes I do work where we will askquestions of the body to, to find out,
to bypass that thinking brain and gostraight through to the heart and how you
feel, and asking the body what is needed.
And it could be a range of things.
(18:47):
It could be action, it could be emotion,it could be being, being comforted by
words or by any number of, um, actionreally, through art, through movement.
And in that we're sort of bypassingthis cognitive piece that often tells
(19:12):
us, based on society, what's needed.
Oh, you need to rest.
Well, maybe you don't need to rest.
Maybe you really just needto acknowledge your feelings.
Maybe you need to be with yourself.
And maybe that's allthat's being asked for.
And once you do that, thewhole system settles, right?
(19:32):
Your whole nervous system cansettle, and you can, um, approach
a transition in a very differentway when your nervous system isn't
jacked, lack of a better word.
Sam Fuqua (19:47):
I mean, it definitely tracks with some of the other
guests we've had on this program.
We've talked about the physicalresponses to conflict and how can
we center ourselves in our bodieswhen we're in potentially very
intense conflict with another person.
Grace Gee (20:03):
Right.
And that conflict isrecreated by our memories.
So we don't have to becurrently in a conflict.
We just have to be rememberingit for our nervous system to
be responding in the same way.
So to be able to breathe differently,to be able to, you know, whatever
it is that's needed to, to bringthat down, and then to move forward
(20:27):
with something that is healingis, is that work of transitions.
Alexis Miles (20:34):
I've read, and we talked a little bit about the fact that you have
had this profound healing journey inyour life, and in fact you almost died.
Grace Gee (20:43):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (20:44):
Can you talk about that and how that led to the work
that you're currently doing, in part?
Grace Gee (20:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, sure.
In 2014, I, uh, went into the hospital,um, in septic shock, and had just
multi-organ failure and was on lifesupport for, part of that time, I had C.
Diff so I was in isolationbecause I was really quite sick.
(21:11):
And a couple of times during thatmonth in hospital, I was told, um,
or my then husband was told thatI wasn't gonna make it through
the night so come and say goodbye.
And obviously, I survived.
And I came out of that with areally profound change in my
(21:36):
relationship to myself and theworld and really everything.
And I, I decided, it's not even like Idecided, I just came out of that with
this understanding that I could notdo things the way I was doing them.
I took this as a wake up call.
(21:57):
As a, you need to, um, make some changes.
So it kind of broke me down allthe way to the ground, broke me
open and said, you know, rebuild.
Rebuild in a way that,um, honors your life.
Honors the second andthird chance at living.
(22:18):
So I really try to do that every day.
Be grateful that I'm here.
Um, understand that we don't know howmany, how much time we have, ever.
We don't know that we have tomorrow.
So live today, um, fully,and without regret.
(22:39):
And do the work, you know.
I, I figured out what I was here todo and, and I'm determined to do it.
And I feel I am doing it,but it can get bigger.
Alexis Miles (22:53):
And part of that work is community healing?
Grace Gee (22:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's, um, being able to affect changein my community and, you know, I
grew up with racism at a very earlyage, and I think I've been thinking
about how I could have any sort ofpart in changing that my whole life.
(23:20):
And for most of my life I wasquite despondent about it.
I didn't think that there wasreally anything that could be done
that would make any difference.
And, um, I think this project does.
In fact, I know this project does.
(23:40):
So, um, one of the things I did,uh, was to, you know, sort of figure
that out and what, what can I do?
How can we affect change fromthe grassroots level, you
know, one person at a time?
You know, research shows that havingthese conversations with children changes
(24:01):
the trajectory of their lives, right?
Of what would normally be theracism or the discrimination
that is just part of how we live.
So I love having Bubbling Up in librariesand in places where children will be
there so that they can touch the bubblesand ask what it is, and "Mommy read
(24:26):
this to me," or "Daddy, what is this?"
You know?
And, and then they get toopen up these conversations.
Alexis Miles (24:34):
Well, we like listeners to have a very doable, practical takeaway.
So what are a couple of things youcould suggest for individuals to
do who are interested in communityhealing or even healing themselves?
Grace Gee (24:52):
Right.
And healing yourself is the beginningof community healing or they're,
they can be very intertwined.
So, absolutely.
And I, I am a big proponent ofstorytelling, sharing stories, whether
that is anonymously or not anonymously.
Regardless of what the topic is,whether it's discrimination or you
(25:16):
know, any, any variety of things, Ithink finding your people, finding your
group, right, and sharing your stories,understanding that there actually is a
support group for everything out there.
I lived in isolation around certain,um, subjects, around infertility and
(25:40):
around racism, then, and I didn'tunderstand that I wasn't alone.
And that was, it was so hard.
So I think being in community, findingyour support group, and doing whatever
it is, whether it's writing, drawing,acting, you know, music, dancing,
(26:05):
something that is an expression of whatyou're going through is the healing piece.
And whether you share that, you know,or not is whether it is personal
or whether it's community based.
Sam Fuqua (26:22):
I think it's so important for everybody to know that they,
they have that creative power inthem and they have a story to tell.
Grace Gee (26:31):
People say often I'm not creative, but again, this is sort
of training, you know, it's kind ofthe same as I'm not pretty enough,
you know, I, like, if there isonly one standard and one mold, no,
most of us will not fit into that.
But the truth is we live our livescreatively all the time, you know.
(26:54):
Creative, problem solving.
Creative, you know, waysof speaking with people.
Our communication.
I would argue that everybody hascreativity in them, and if they
accepted that it would come out.
But as long as you say, I'm notcreative, or I can't draw or dance
or whatever, then you really can't.
(27:17):
So yes, we absolutely haveit in us to, to do this work.
Alexis Miles (27:23):
So Grace, it sounds like you're saying that
we all are inherently creative.
And the more we're able to act on thatcreativity, the more healing we have
and the stronger our communities are andour relationships are with each other.
Is that what you're saying?
Grace Gee (27:41):
That is absolutely what I'm saying.
Yes.
Alexis Miles (27:44):
I had not thought of that before.
The relationship between creativityand healing and community.
Grace Gee (27:52):
I think art has the power to heal.
Um, partly in that way that we bypassour thinking brain because we're so,
sort of like linear, Cartesian, youknow, car, cognitive, and to be able
to bypass that, to reach our feelingsand touch our hearts, that is healing.
(28:16):
I also think that, um, what we do to healourselves, I'm understanding this now, can
always be brought into community, right?
I did this project that is not aboutequity and inclusion, it's about red
flags in relationships, and I invited thecommunity to come and tell their stories.
(28:38):
They literally wrote on red andgreen flags about relational waves of
being that, you know, are red flags.
And the conversation, so the,it started with myself, right?
So I'm writing all these redflags, like, oh, should have
seen that, should have seen that.
And then, um, I realized if Iopen this up to the community,
(29:04):
it's, it's available to everybody.
So then, people came, wrote flags.
And I actually sell these kits thatare red and green flags for people
to purchase and do it on their own.
So then that is how that goes.
Starts with me doing my own workand goes out to the community.
(29:26):
And then you walk into somebody'shouse and they have a string of
red and green flags up, and youask them, what's that about?
And then that conversation starts, right?
And then, and then they're talkingabout, oh, what are your red flags?
Oh, you know, what are your green flags?
What are you looking for in relationship?
I mean, whether it's romantic relationshipor business relationship or family
(29:49):
relationships, it doesn't matter.
It's, you know, it's all there.
Alexis Miles (29:54):
And it reminds me of the Bubbling Up project.
You make it tactile.
So people actually get tosee it, touch it, feel it.
Grace Gee (30:03):
And people can.
They can go up to thisexhibit and touch it.
It's totally fine.
Alexis Miles (30:09):
And so just, I wanna make sure I understand it.
So the red flags arethings we look out for.
Oh, that's, that could be a dangerousarea, that could be harmful.
And the green flags are the positives.
Oh, I should run in this direction.
These are life supporting.
Grace Gee (30:26):
Yes.
Like, oh, that's what I want.
I'm looking for this.
I'm looking for somebody who cancommunicate, you know, who is honest.
I'm not looking forsomebody who lies, you know.
Or, you know, who, who puts medown in front of other people.
So I started with red flags, butI, I came to understand that's
(30:48):
not the whole story, right?
Uh, every relationship is filledwith red and green flags, otherwise
we wouldn't have been there.
So to tell the whole story,you just hope that the balance
is, uh, greater on one side.
And I think, you know, the kits are usedin that way where people get to, um, write
(31:10):
out these things, these red and greenflags, and then use them as reference for
when, when you start a new relationship,when you're going into the business
with somebody, when you're interview,interviewing for a job, you get to sort
of look at your lists and go, where am I?
Where's the balance?
(31:31):
And you, you run if the, if thebalance is on the red and, uh, run, run
towards, if the balance is on the green.
Alexis Miles (31:41):
So it sounds like this can be used both by
individuals and by communities.
So a community group could do this.
Grace Gee (31:48):
Yes.
Yes.
An affinity group could do this.
A department could say, thisis how we wanna, this is what
we're looking for in our clients.
This is how we wanna speak to each other.
This is how we wanna putourselves out there in the
world like this, not like this.
(32:10):
For sure.
Alexis Miles (32:11):
That sounds to me like it's because everybody gets
to be involved in shaping that.
That it could be even morepowerful than like a vision
statement for an organization.
You know, that's written up on the wall.
This is actually written, but itwas written by the collective.
Grace Gee (32:28):
Yes.
In their own voices.
So that's a big piece of BubblingUp as well as the flags, is that
people, it's not cha, it's notan interpretation through me.
Like I'm not interpreting your words.
I am your voice exactly how youare speaking is represented.
(32:50):
And for Bubbling Up, that'simportant for a community that
typically is underrepresented.
Sam Fuqua (32:57):
Well, I know artists are always, uh, looking ahead
and thinking of the next project.
So in addition to the projectsyou've described, where, where
are you going next with this work?
Grace Gee (33:07):
Well, Bubbling Up is sort of in its inception, so I
am continuing to gather storiesand also exhibit in the studio.
I am continuing to do my own fine art.
Um, I do a lot of stitching and again,you know, it's healing work, so I'm just
continuing with that and experimentingwith new items and new techniques.
(33:33):
So that's very exciting.
And then, um, Bubbling Up willjust continue to grow and I'm
starting to open up to privateas well as public sort of venues.
And I did, uh, story gatheringevents with high school students
at Boulder, Boulder High School,and so, and that was so great.
(33:56):
I am really looking forward to workingwith more high school students 'cause I
think that the earlier we catch peopleand that we can sort of point out what
is racism, what is discrimination.
Sometimes it's very obvious, butsometimes those microaggressions
just leave you feeling a certain way,but not really understanding why.
(34:20):
And so that's, that's been important tome to be able to educate in that way.
I mean, educate might not bethe right way, but expose.
Because when I was younger, I,I didn't really understand why
certain things felt so awful.
I just know that they felt awfulwhen they were said to me, you know.
(34:41):
The subtle things, right?
So to be able to expose that as, yes,this is racism, this is discrimination
and you should call it out as that,and here's, here's what you can
do if you're a bystander to that.
You don't have to just be quiet.
So I'm excited about working withhigh school students and doing
(35:04):
sort of more private events.
Sam Fuqua (35:07):
Well, we look forward to, uh, to learning more about them
and seeing them if we're able to.
And folks, of course can find outmore about your work on your website.
Uh, Grace Gee, it's been reallya pleasure to talk with you.
Thank you so much.
Grace Gee (35:20):
Thank you, Sam.
Thank you, Alexis.
It's been great to be with you.
Alexis Miles (35:24):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (35:27):
Grace G is an artist, writer, and teacher.
You can find out about her work ather website, healinggracestudio.com.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(35:50):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
(36:16):
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
(36:38):
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
And in telling those stories, they understand that they are not alone
when they read the other stories andthey get to express, sometimes for
the first time, what has happened.
And that seems to be a very commonthing, is that people will say,
"I've never told this story before,and it's such a relief to tell it."
Sam Fuqua (00:31):
That's Grace Gee, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(00:51):
On this episode, we talk withGrace Gee about the healing
power of art and storytelling.
She is a Colorado-based artist,writer, and teacher, and much of our
conversation centers on one of herrecent projects called Bubbling Up.
It's a public exhibit that invitesmembers of the BIPOC community to write
(01:14):
their stories of discrimination andinjustice, and then non-BIPOC community
members are invited to write a response.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:29):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:31):
And we're so pleased to be joined for this edition
of Well, That Went Sideways!
By Grace Gee.
Hello.
Grace Gee (01:36):
Hi, Sam.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:38):
Hi, Grace.
Sam Fuqua (01:40):
Great to have you with us.
One of the ways you identifyyourself is as a Chinese Canadian.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour, your upbringing and how that
has influenced who you are today?
Grace Gee (01:51):
Sure.
I grew up in Canada, but I alsolived in Hong Kong in, uh, in my
teens, and I live in the US now.
And so I've traveled in Asia andCanada and the US quite a bit.
And I think the exposure I've had topeople and cultures, different cultures,
(02:12):
has really had me understand that nomatter what our circumstances are,
how we experience life is similar.
And so my, my art is influenced inthe, in that I feel like no matter
what the expression is, no matterwhat the circumstance that brought
(02:34):
me to pain or loss or joy, it isa shared, collective experience.
And so people can relate to, um, theart and the healing that happens.
Sam Fuqua (02:47):
Was Canada a good place to grow up for someone who's Chinese Canadian?
Grace Gee (02:52):
Uh, I think that it depends on, um, where you are, just like it
depends on where you are here in the US.
So I did live in some places thatwere, um, more difficult to live
in as a, as a Chinese person.
Um, and then places thatwere easier to live in.
And they really did shape me in terms ofwho I am and how I navigate the world.
(03:18):
A lot of the work that I'm doing rightnow currently is around diversity and
equity, inclusion and uh, healing racism.
So there is absolutely a direct connectionbetween my experiences and wanting to heal
that for myself and then wanting to offerthat to the collective to heal as well.
Sam Fuqua (03:42):
How do you use your art to heal racism?
Grace Gee (03:47):
That's a good question.
I started a social justice healingart project called Bubbling Up,
and I have fabricated these bubblelike forms for people to write
their stories of discrimination orharassment on, and they represent the
(04:09):
bubbles that some people who don'texperience that discrimination live in.
And so it really is about all thestuff that's bubbling up and also sort
of bursting that bubble through thisproject, allowing people who are not
part of the global majority to readthese stories and be touched by them,
(04:34):
to learn from them, and maybe evento find themselves in, within these
stories and realize perhaps wherethey have mistepped, unintentionally.
I think there's a lot of, a lot ofmicroaggressions aren't understood
to be microaggressions by boththe receiver and the giver.
(04:58):
And this project is one of those waysthat I can, can educate and inform.
So for me, this is an opportunityfor people to tell their stories.
And in telling those stories, theyunderstand that they are not alone
when they read the other stories andthey get to express, sometimes for
(05:23):
the first time, what has happened.
And that seems to be a very commonthing, is that people will say,
"I've never told this story before,and it's such a relief to tell it."
Alexis Miles (05:37):
Grace, when I hear you describe that project, it reminds me a
little bit of Me Too, the Me Too movement.
Because people telling this same storyover and over and over seems to give
it some weight, some gravitas, so thatlisteners begin to understand, oh, this is
not just Grace's story or Alexis's story.
(06:00):
This is a collective experience.
And they, it seems that it may,it helps people to address it as
something that's real and not justsomebody's individual response.
It, are you finding that?
Grace Gee (06:14):
I absolutely am, from both sides of the, um, storytelling.
So the people who are tellingthe story realize, oh, you other
people experience this too.
Because I think so many times when weface racism and discrimination, we think,
there's so much shame to it, right?
And so we, we isolate, we don't talk aboutit, and then we think that we're alone.
(06:39):
And to see your story told by anotherperson is community building, is healing,
and it creates this conversation, uh,amongst people who are participating.
That is really beautiful.
(07:00):
I think people do find community in that.
Alexis Miles (07:04):
And when a person walks in, so they walk in through
the door, could you describe whatthey see and what it looks like?
Grace Gee (07:12):
Sure.
I always have a little, uh, popup exhibit.
So I'll start with a few bubbles.
And, um, these bubbles range from probably14 inches to, you know, four inches.
So it's kind of like thatbubbling, you know, different
(07:33):
depths and different sizes.
And then people who are not writingstories have a, an opportunity
to respond on, um, an index card.
So like a three by six orfour by six inde, index card.
So those are interspersedwithin the bubbles.
And also I take pictures of the peoplewho write stories so that they, you
(07:56):
know, we can put a face to the story.
It's, it, it personalizes it.
So mixed in with the bubblesare faces and responses.
And I just have a little minisort of exhibit up so that people
know what they're walking intoand what they're contributing to.
That's visually what they see.
(08:17):
You know, I have a table with bubblesout and you know, I'm just inviting
people to come and read, and then ifthey're so inspired to write something.
Or two bubbles or 10 bubbles if they want.
Alexis Miles (08:30):
And what has been the response so far?
Grace Gee (08:34):
Uh, really positive.
A lot of people engage.
So I think there are definitelypeople who walk past, they do
not wanna engage in it at all.
And then there are people who, who wantto engage and they are, they are ones who
will write long stories on bubbles, youknow, or, or short stories on bubbles.
(08:59):
And in, so I always have a survey thatpeople fill out and it's been so positive.
I think, I think the number's somethinglike 78 percent of people who participate
in the um, in Bubbling Up say that theywould like to volunteer for either a story
gathering or making bubbles or puttingup an exhibit, uh, which is phenomenal.
(09:26):
And, um, I'm getting a lot ofpeople who are spreading the word.
So I think there's justa lot of engagement by a
self-selected group of people.
Let's just put it that way.
Sam Fuqua (09:41):
How did you come upon the bubble as the, the vehicle?
Which is whimsical, but also speaks to,you know, I live in Boulder, Colorado,
for example, down the road from you.
And we sometimes talk about the Boulderbubble, which as I interpret that is, uh,
people who are largely white and affluent,kind of living in a bubble separate
(10:05):
from the reality of, of our society.
And that's, uh, of course a,a very simplistic view of it.
But that's kind of one, uh, bubblemetaphor that is used in my town.
Grace Gee (10:17):
Yeah.
And you're exactly right.
That is exactly where that came from.
As well as, um, I think that when we stuffour trauma, when we don't deal with our
grief and our pain, it does bubble up.
It bubbles up in so many differentways, in big ways, in small ways.
(10:40):
It comes out when weleast expect it sometimes.
And so there's this bubblingup of this grief and also
of this anger and injustice.
So it's both, right?
It's, it's that stuff that bubblesup and it is bursting that bubble for
(11:00):
people who are not experiencing it,who, who have said to me, "There's
no racism in Boulder, is there?"
So I really felt like creating a projectlike this, uh, that visually you can
understand and is related to burstingthe bubble would be received well.
(11:23):
You get to read stories, youdon't, you're not lectured at.
There's no long book to re,like it's lived experience.
So you, you get to take in what you takein knowing that if you see a face, if
you recognize a person on the wall, youknow that their story's on the wall too.
And you don't know whose is whose.
(11:43):
So, I mean, this is what I wanted todo, was open up sort of what people
walk around with that's invisible.
Sam Fuqua (11:54):
Well, just to make this, uh, a little more real for our
listeners, can you, can you sharewith us one of the stories that,
uh, is in one of the bubbles, andperhaps a, a response to that story?
Grace Gee (12:06):
Absolutely, Sam.
Um, I have a few here.
One of them right here is very simple.
It says, "Why do you eatrice with everything?"
And that's, you know, there'sso much comment around food.
The smelliness or the non-smelliness.
The, what it is that we eat.
(12:26):
That's very, a very common theme.
Let me read this one, "I constantly feeltokenized at work as diversity, equity
and inclusion has become the next bigtrend to show off how progressive the
institution is, to recruit more students.
I am being invited to moremeetings just for show.
(12:49):
My voice remains in an echo chamber, andsys, systemic issues are never addressed.
Thank you for creatingthis space for community."
Can I read this one as well?
"At 15, I had a huge crushon a white friend who came
from a rich, affluent family.
(13:09):
He liked me back butdidn't want to date me.
I learned later that his parents didn'twant him to date me and preferred
him to date someone more appropriate,just, I mean, 'appropriate' despite
them telling me, uh, I was verybright, smart, and pretty girl.
I carried that with me for along time, uh, believing that I
(13:34):
would have to work twice as hardto overcome my 'disadvantages'
when really they were racist."
I have a couple, um, responses.
Sam Fuqua (13:45):
For the listener, to set the stage, uh, someone looking at the
bubbles, reading the story is theninvited to write their reaction on a card.
Grace Gee (13:54):
That's right.
Uh, here's one.
"I can't imagine the pain of notfeeling safe in your own home.
Of feeling targeted in this way.
I had a friend who grew up on a sheepfarm whose fam, family also had a rifle
at the front door to protect the sheep.
I can't imagine the terror of needingto protect the humans in this way.
I am so sorry."
(14:17):
This one speaks directlyto a specific bubble.
This one speaks moregenerally as an affirmation.
"Thank you for continuing totry to help us understand.
It must be exhausting and frustrating.
I don't understand.
This isn't my lived experience.
It isn't my sisters, mymother's, my family's experience.
(14:40):
Please keep trying to help me understand.
I want to understand.
I want to do better.
Hold me accountable."
So there's a range of responses.
Alexis Miles (14:53):
What strikes me, Grace, is that this project seems
to require people to be vulnerable.
And can you talk about the roleof vulnerability and healing?
Grace Gee (15:07):
Yeah, I, I think it's, um, I think it's critical.
I think without opening enough to be alittle bit vulnerable, we can't really
touch on the pain that needs healing.
And if we can't touch it,we can't go there, right?
We can't begin to shift itif we can't acknowledge it.
(15:30):
So it does absolutely require acertain level and people come in with
whatever they're comfortable with,this much or this much, and they
speak about it in their, the commentsection of the survey afterwards.
Sometimes it makes a big difference thatit's anonymous, that they don't, they can
(15:52):
tell their story and put it on the wall.
Excuse me.
Um, and then sometimes, um,sometimes I hear, I, I can't quite
do it, you know, like, I'm not, I'mnot comfortable writing a story.
And I always tell them they can send ina story anonymously on my website, and
(16:13):
I'll put their story on the, on a bubble.
And so I think it speaks to that, um,what I was talking about earlier, that
some people just walk by because itis too, too much and they can't do it.
But I want the opportunity to bethere, and then they get to choose
(16:35):
what, how, how vulnerable they are.
Sam Fuqua (16:39):
I'm interested in, in another part of your work, which is,
uh, helping people through transitions.
Uh, could be a, a transition of loss or atransition of birth or, I, I think if I'm,
uh, interpreting correctly, any major lifetransition, which all often brings up all
kinds of conflicts within us and withinour relationships with our loved ones.
(17:01):
Um, how do you approach that work?
What does it involve?
Can you talk about the, that, thatpart of, of what you're doing?
Grace Gee (17:08):
Sure.
Um, transition work really,um, deals with, as you said,
everything from birth to death.
The good, the, you know, "positive"transitions are still stressful.
And I use art, I use a number of differentsort of modalities within art to access
(17:34):
how we feel, and interpret what'sgoing on in a way that is empowering.
Sam Fuqua (17:42):
So that might be, uh, creating a, a work of visual art
that helps them to understand?
Grace Gee (17:48):
Yep.
It might be writing.
It might be creating visual art.
It might be movement.
It depends on what is, um, asked for.
Uh, we do, I do a lot of work withactually somatically, somatic work, and
asking yourself, asking your body whatis needed and then going from there.
(18:12):
So it's, it's very personalbecause it's not one size fits all.
Sam Fuqua (18:18):
Can you say a little bit more about that 'cause some folks
might not know the term "somatic work"and, and what the connection is there?
Grace Gee (18:26):
Sure.
So sometimes I do work where we will askquestions of the body to, to find out,
to bypass that thinking brain and gostraight through to the heart and how you
feel, and asking the body what is needed.
And it could be a range of things.
(18:47):
It could be action, it could be emotion,it could be being, being comforted by
words or by any number of, um, actionreally, through art, through movement.
And in that we're sort of bypassingthis cognitive piece that often tells
(19:12):
us, based on society, what's needed.
Oh, you need to rest.
Well, maybe you don't need to rest.
Maybe you really just needto acknowledge your feelings.
Maybe you need to be with yourself.
And maybe that's allthat's being asked for.
And once you do that, thewhole system settles, right?
(19:32):
Your whole nervous system cansettle, and you can, um, approach
a transition in a very differentway when your nervous system isn't
jacked, lack of a better word.
Sam Fuqua (19:47):
I mean, it definitely tracks with some of the other
guests we've had on this program.
We've talked about the physicalresponses to conflict and how can
we center ourselves in our bodieswhen we're in potentially very
intense conflict with another person.
Grace Gee (20:03):
Right.
And that conflict isrecreated by our memories.
So we don't have to becurrently in a conflict.
We just have to be rememberingit for our nervous system to
be responding in the same way.
So to be able to breathe differently,to be able to, you know, whatever
it is that's needed to, to bringthat down, and then to move forward
(20:27):
with something that is healingis, is that work of transitions.
Alexis Miles (20:34):
I've read, and we talked a little bit about the fact that you have
had this profound healing journey inyour life, and in fact you almost died.
Grace Gee (20:43):
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Miles (20:44):
Can you talk about that and how that led to the work
that you're currently doing, in part?
Grace Gee (20:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, sure.
In 2014, I, uh, went into the hospital,um, in septic shock, and had just
multi-organ failure and was on lifesupport for, part of that time, I had C.
Diff so I was in isolationbecause I was really quite sick.
(21:11):
And a couple of times during thatmonth in hospital, I was told, um,
or my then husband was told thatI wasn't gonna make it through
the night so come and say goodbye.
And obviously, I survived.
And I came out of that with areally profound change in my
(21:36):
relationship to myself and theworld and really everything.
And I, I decided, it's not even like Idecided, I just came out of that with
this understanding that I could notdo things the way I was doing them.
I took this as a wake up call.
(21:57):
As a, you need to, um, make some changes.
So it kind of broke me down allthe way to the ground, broke me
open and said, you know, rebuild.
Rebuild in a way that,um, honors your life.
Honors the second andthird chance at living.
(22:18):
So I really try to do that every day.
Be grateful that I'm here.
Um, understand that we don't know howmany, how much time we have, ever.
We don't know that we have tomorrow.
So live today, um, fully,and without regret.
(22:39):
And do the work, you know.
I, I figured out what I was here todo and, and I'm determined to do it.
And I feel I am doing it,but it can get bigger.
Alexis Miles (22:53):
And part of that work is community healing?
Grace Gee (22:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's, um, being able to affect changein my community and, you know, I
grew up with racism at a very earlyage, and I think I've been thinking
about how I could have any sort ofpart in changing that my whole life.
(23:20):
And for most of my life I wasquite despondent about it.
I didn't think that there wasreally anything that could be done
that would make any difference.
And, um, I think this project does.
In fact, I know this project does.
(23:40):
So, um, one of the things I did,uh, was to, you know, sort of figure
that out and what, what can I do?
How can we affect change fromthe grassroots level, you
know, one person at a time?
You know, research shows that havingthese conversations with children changes
(24:01):
the trajectory of their lives, right?
Of what would normally be theracism or the discrimination
that is just part of how we live.
So I love having Bubbling Up in librariesand in places where children will be
there so that they can touch the bubblesand ask what it is, and "Mommy read
(24:26):
this to me," or "Daddy, what is this?"
You know?
And, and then they get toopen up these conversations.
Alexis Miles (24:34):
Well, we like listeners to have a very doable, practical takeaway.
So what are a couple of things youcould suggest for individuals to
do who are interested in communityhealing or even healing themselves?
Grace Gee (24:52):
Right.
And healing yourself is the beginningof community healing or they're,
they can be very intertwined.
So, absolutely.
And I, I am a big proponent ofstorytelling, sharing stories, whether
that is anonymously or not anonymously.
Regardless of what the topic is,whether it's discrimination or you
(25:16):
know, any, any variety of things, Ithink finding your people, finding your
group, right, and sharing your stories,understanding that there actually is a
support group for everything out there.
I lived in isolation around certain,um, subjects, around infertility and
(25:40):
around racism, then, and I didn'tunderstand that I wasn't alone.
And that was, it was so hard.
So I think being in community, findingyour support group, and doing whatever
it is, whether it's writing, drawing,acting, you know, music, dancing,
(26:05):
something that is an expression of whatyou're going through is the healing piece.
And whether you share that, you know,or not is whether it is personal
or whether it's community based.
Sam Fuqua (26:22):
I think it's so important for everybody to know that they,
they have that creative power inthem and they have a story to tell.
Grace Gee (26:31):
People say often I'm not creative, but again, this is sort
of training, you know, it's kind ofthe same as I'm not pretty enough,
you know, I, like, if there isonly one standard and one mold, no,
most of us will not fit into that.
But the truth is we live our livescreatively all the time, you know.
(26:54):
Creative, problem solving.
Creative, you know, waysof speaking with people.
Our communication.
I would argue that everybody hascreativity in them, and if they
accepted that it would come out.
But as long as you say, I'm notcreative, or I can't draw or dance
or whatever, then you really can't.
(27:17):
So yes, we absolutely haveit in us to, to do this work.
Alexis Miles (27:23):
So Grace, it sounds like you're saying that
we all are inherently creative.
And the more we're able to act on thatcreativity, the more healing we have
and the stronger our communities are andour relationships are with each other.
Is that what you're saying?
Grace Gee (27:41):
That is absolutely what I'm saying.
Yes.
Alexis Miles (27:44):
I had not thought of that before.
The relationship between creativityand healing and community.
Grace Gee (27:52):
I think art has the power to heal.
Um, partly in that way that we bypassour thinking brain because we're so,
sort of like linear, Cartesian, youknow, car, cognitive, and to be able
to bypass that, to reach our feelingsand touch our hearts, that is healing.
(28:16):
I also think that, um, what we do to healourselves, I'm understanding this now, can
always be brought into community, right?
I did this project that is not aboutequity and inclusion, it's about red
flags in relationships, and I invited thecommunity to come and tell their stories.
(28:38):
They literally wrote on red andgreen flags about relational waves of
being that, you know, are red flags.
And the conversation, so the,it started with myself, right?
So I'm writing all these redflags, like, oh, should have
seen that, should have seen that.
And then, um, I realized if Iopen this up to the community,
(29:04):
it's, it's available to everybody.
So then, people came, wrote flags.
And I actually sell these kits thatare red and green flags for people
to purchase and do it on their own.
So then that is how that goes.
Starts with me doing my own workand goes out to the community.
(29:26):
And then you walk into somebody'shouse and they have a string of
red and green flags up, and youask them, what's that about?
And then that conversation starts, right?
And then, and then they're talkingabout, oh, what are your red flags?
Oh, you know, what are your green flags?
What are you looking for in relationship?
I mean, whether it's romantic relationshipor business relationship or family
(29:49):
relationships, it doesn't matter.
It's, you know, it's all there.
Alexis Miles (29:54):
And it reminds me of the Bubbling Up project.
You make it tactile.
So people actually get tosee it, touch it, feel it.
Grace Gee (30:03):
And people can.
They can go up to thisexhibit and touch it.
It's totally fine.
Alexis Miles (30:09):
And so just, I wanna make sure I understand it.
So the red flags arethings we look out for.
Oh, that's, that could be a dangerousarea, that could be harmful.
And the green flags are the positives.
Oh, I should run in this direction.
These are life supporting.
Grace Gee (30:26):
Yes.
Like, oh, that's what I want.
I'm looking for this.
I'm looking for somebody who cancommunicate, you know, who is honest.
I'm not looking forsomebody who lies, you know.
Or, you know, who, who puts medown in front of other people.
So I started with red flags, butI, I came to understand that's
(30:48):
not the whole story, right?
Uh, every relationship is filledwith red and green flags, otherwise
we wouldn't have been there.
So to tell the whole story,you just hope that the balance
is, uh, greater on one side.
And I think, you know, the kits are usedin that way where people get to, um, write
(31:10):
out these things, these red and greenflags, and then use them as reference for
when, when you start a new relationship,when you're going into the business
with somebody, when you're interview,interviewing for a job, you get to sort
of look at your lists and go, where am I?
Where's the balance?
(31:31):
And you, you run if the, if thebalance is on the red and, uh, run, run
towards, if the balance is on the green.
Alexis Miles (31:41):
So it sounds like this can be used both by
individuals and by communities.
So a community group could do this.
Grace Gee (31:48):
Yes.
Yes.
An affinity group could do this.
A department could say, thisis how we wanna, this is what
we're looking for in our clients.
This is how we wanna speak to each other.
This is how we wanna putourselves out there in the
world like this, not like this.
(32:10):
For sure.
Alexis Miles (32:11):
That sounds to me like it's because everybody gets
to be involved in shaping that.
That it could be even morepowerful than like a vision
statement for an organization.
You know, that's written up on the wall.
This is actually written, but itwas written by the collective.
Grace Gee (32:28):
Yes.
In their own voices.
So that's a big piece of BubblingUp as well as the flags, is that
people, it's not cha, it's notan interpretation through me.
Like I'm not interpreting your words.
I am your voice exactly how youare speaking is represented.
(32:50):
And for Bubbling Up, that'simportant for a community that
typically is underrepresented.
Sam Fuqua (32:57):
Well, I know artists are always, uh, looking ahead
and thinking of the next project.
So in addition to the projectsyou've described, where, where
are you going next with this work?
Grace Gee (33:07):
Well, Bubbling Up is sort of in its inception, so I
am continuing to gather storiesand also exhibit in the studio.
I am continuing to do my own fine art.
Um, I do a lot of stitching and again,you know, it's healing work, so I'm just
continuing with that and experimentingwith new items and new techniques.
(33:33):
So that's very exciting.
And then, um, Bubbling Up willjust continue to grow and I'm
starting to open up to privateas well as public sort of venues.
And I did, uh, story gatheringevents with high school students
at Boulder, Boulder High School,and so, and that was so great.
(33:56):
I am really looking forward to workingwith more high school students 'cause I
think that the earlier we catch peopleand that we can sort of point out what
is racism, what is discrimination.
Sometimes it's very obvious, butsometimes those microaggressions
just leave you feeling a certain way,but not really understanding why.
(34:20):
And so that's, that's been important tome to be able to educate in that way.
I mean, educate might not bethe right way, but expose.
Because when I was younger, I,I didn't really understand why
certain things felt so awful.
I just know that they felt awfulwhen they were said to me, you know.
(34:41):
The subtle things, right?
So to be able to expose that as, yes,this is racism, this is discrimination
and you should call it out as that,and here's, here's what you can
do if you're a bystander to that.
You don't have to just be quiet.
So I'm excited about working withhigh school students and doing
(35:04):
sort of more private events.
Sam Fuqua (35:07):
Well, we look forward to, uh, to learning more about them
and seeing them if we're able to.
And folks, of course can find outmore about your work on your website.
Uh, Grace Gee, it's been reallya pleasure to talk with you.
Thank you so much.
Grace Gee (35:20):
Thank you, Sam.
Thank you, Alexis.
It's been great to be with you.
Alexis Miles (35:24):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (35:27):
Grace G is an artist, writer, and teacher.
You can find out about her work ather website, healinggracestudio.com.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(35:50):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
(36:16):
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
(36:38):
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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