February 15, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, we talk with Natarsha Prince Sanders about racial justice and spiritual development. She's a speaker, teacher, and community pastor, as well as a doctoral student at Columbia Theological Seminary.
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Natarsha Sanders (00:07):
And we're all trying to figure out how to get it.
How to actualize it.
How to manifest it.
How to keep greed at bay longenough to say this right here, even
if it only lasted for 10 minutes.
That was an example of reconciliation.
We need to replicate that.
We need to do that.
That's what led us there.
And if I could get people to come in andstay in, then that's how we get there.
(00:34):
It's a journey.
But we've got to be committed to itbecause we've done some harm to God's
creation, and we have to be willingto, to own it, and then reconcile back
to it and seek forgiveness, not justto God, but to one another, as well.
Sam Fuqua (00:56):
That's Natarsha Prince Sanders, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk withNatarsha Prince Sanders about racial
(01:19):
justice and spiritual development.
She's a speaker, teacher, and communitypastor, as well as a doctoral student
at Columbia Theological Seminary.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:35):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:37):
So glad to have Natarsha Prince Sanders with us for this conversation.
Hello.
Natarsha Sanders (01:41):
Hello, you all.
Hey, thank you so much forhaving me for this conversation.
Sam Fuqua (01:46):
We met at the White Privilege Conference, uh, in Mesa, Arizona,
and we're glad to reconnect with you.
Tell us a little bit about your backgroundand, and how you got started on this,
this particular path within your faith.
Natarsha Sanders (01:59):
Thank you so much for that question.
And it does seem like so long agowhen we met, um, but I also feel like
I've, I've known you all 'cause nowI've started following your work.
So, I appreciate the work that youall offer, um, in spaces like these.
So, I got started on this path ofreconciliation, I'll call it, it was
(02:20):
actually at a dinner with my family,um, my immediate and extended family.
Um, my mother has, uh, sixbrothers and they were kind of
gathered around the table talkingabout the, their school days.
And, um, I listened as they were inconversation and they began to talk
(02:45):
about people who had not been so niceto them and wondering where they were,
um, at this point in their lives.
And my uncles now are all considered,would be considered elderly.
They would have, um, AARPmembership, so say that.
So, they're up in age, uh, but they werewondering where some of their classmates
(03:10):
were who weren't so kind to them.
And I, I thought about if my uncles,um, and my mom are alive and well to
remember some of the atrocities that werevisited, uh, on them, that the people who
did it might be alive and well as, also.
And, I got to wondering what theytalked about around their dinner table.
(03:33):
Um, what they would tell their childrenand their nieces and nephews about
their back in the day in school,like what, what was their story?
What story are they telling?
was my question.
And so, I proceeded on a journeyto try to figure that out.
And so, that's where I am.
Sam Fuqua (03:53):
Well, I love that you're centering that around stories.
The power of stories.
Natarsha Sanders (03:58):
One of the things I found is people are more willing to
tell a story than just go right intoanswering a question, if you will.
So, if I say something like, do youremember your third grade teacher?
Most of the people that I've askedthis question do in fact remember, but
(04:19):
I'd rather say, tell me about schoolwhen you were in third grade, right?
That's all.
It seems very unassuming, right?
And so, people are more willing toengage with that type of prompt, given
our nation's history with segregationin schools and then, uh, desegregation.
(04:43):
Um, because that's ultimately where I'mgetting it when I request that prompt, but
they don't always know that that's whereI'm going when I request that prompt.
So, they engage veryopenly in the beginning.
Sam Fuqua (04:57):
Maybe as an example, I recall that when we spoke at the conference,
you talked about work you were doingwith an elderly white man in the church,
member of the Presbyterian Church, Ibelieve, uh, who was kind of coming to
terms with, uh, with his own racism.
Uh, do you remember thatexample and can you speak to it?
Natarsha Sanders (05:17):
Yes.
So, um, I have worked with anumber of individuals now, um,
just as part of my research.
And, one of the oldest members orindividuals that I've worked with
is entering his nineties, and he wasremembering some of the songs and
(05:38):
some of the things that he did as achild, as a five and six-year-old.
And, it was one point in ourinterview where I think it just
dawned on him that he was, in fact,a product of white supremacy, right?
(05:58):
And he paused and looked at mewith teary eyes and said, "I've
never talked about this before.
And I didn't know how hurtful it was."
So, from that moment, um, whatI learned, uh, Sam and Alexis,
first of all, was to use a littlecompassion when operating in this way.
(06:25):
Um, and so I sought, um, some resourceson how to, um, engage pastoral
care during these tender moments.
But also, how to help them go furtherinto the story without inflicting any
type of emotional or psychological harm.
(06:47):
Um, so I do encourage them to,to do therapy alongside this
kind of unearthing of story.
But, the wrestle is that alot of times people didn't
want to unearth these stories.
One, because they didn't know thatthey were stories worth telling.
It's like, so what?
I sang Yankee Doodle and I thoughtGeorge Washington was the greatest
(07:11):
president alive as a five year old child.
What, what does it haveto do with anything?
So, they don't think it's important,but then when they realize that it
actually is important, how to talkabout it among their friends and
also towards the end of life, right?
I said that this personwas entering his eighties.
(07:33):
So, at this time, you're really wantingto be making peace and living your
last days and okay with everything.
So to unearth something that mighttake longer to reconcile than you have
life left, is a very big act of couragebecause no one wants to close their eyes
(07:55):
finally in disarray or with dis, dis,disarray in their spirit or their soul.
And so, working toward that endis, is indeed an act of bravery.
And I, I invite people into it, butthere are also those who choose to
not, and I'm just as okay with thatas well because it is a brave work.
Alexis Miles (08:16):
Natarsha, you've used two words that really
intrigued me in this context.
You talked about tenderness and bravery.
Can you say more about that, and what youmean when you say this is a brave work?
Natarsha Sanders (08:31):
Absolutely.
Dr.
Brenda Salter McNeil in her, um,most recent book, Becoming Brave, she
parallels the story of Esther in theBible, who was ultimately called to be
a queen and free people, um, using herpolitical post, um, and title as a queen.
(08:54):
But she talked about Esther's beginningand the journey of her life and
parallels it through the journey, manyjourneys that we take as Christian
folk and where we are called to.
Particularly in the work ofreconciliation, um, because while
it is a, it's a, it can be kind ofa buzzword, nice to say, cliche-ish,
(09:18):
those of us who live our lives into itunderstand the risks and the bravery
that's required to be in that space.
And so, I use that word in partbecause the, the word brave, um, in
part because this is not work thateverybody chooses to do, and it's, but
(09:39):
it's work that we are all called to.
We're all called to reconcile.
We're all, we're called to reconcilewith our siblings, in Christ, which would
be all of humanity, and we're called toreconcile ourselves to God through Christ.
And so, understanding that as aChristian, as a follower of Christ,
(10:02):
that is a brave work because it requiresus, one, to be vulnerable, trust,
trusting ourselves in these moments, andtrusting the God who called us to it.
And we don't alwaysknow where it will end.
Um, we open ourselves up to theunknown because we live in a world
(10:22):
that is by and large unreconciled.
So we don't, we don't reallyknow how reconciliation looks
in this body, in this life.
And so, when we, it is a brave workbecause the end, it's not known.
We don't know when we get there.
And it's also a work that, thatis, I'll say, when you think
(10:47):
you've done it, keep doing it.
There's no destination.
The journey of reconciliation is thework because just when you think you
have done it right and done it well,you're called to a deeper level.
Um, and so, it is brave tocontinue to surrender yourself to
(11:07):
a work that is really beyond you.
Like, I really need the people thatI've gathered for this research
project to be engaged and do it.
I cannot do this by myself.
I cannot reconcilemyself, by myself, right?
And so, I'm vulnerable to a point wherelike, I need my siblings to be just as
(11:31):
committed to the work that, as I am.
And so, that is the part thatleads me into tenderness.
When I first started this journey, I'min this research, I thought, I am so sick
and tired of white people researching andputting labels on me as a black woman.
(11:54):
I'm tired of people saying, well, I'mtired of white people saying, well, this
is what black women or black people need.
Or this is what black,black people, um, want.
Research has shown...
And I'm like, well, that may be trueof your research, but I really got
tired of hearing people from outsideof who I am, tell me about me.
(12:16):
And so, the stubborn kind of, mmh,we-going-to-see-about-that part of
me said, I'm going to research youand see how good it feels, right?
And so it was kind of, there was,that was not the right attitude.
This is probably why one of the firstthings, my first conversation pulled
some tenderness out of me because Ithink God was saying, "Honey, now, if
(12:40):
you're going to do this, you have todo this from a place of love, right?"
Even if it's radical.
And so, being tender to the point whereI can sit with a person when they are
on the, on the verge of tears, or reallytrying to redeem their parents memory and
(13:05):
make sure that the memory of their parentisn't painted in an ugly way like, "Oh, my
parents were white supremacists," right?
Because I'm not talking to people whoseparents participated in lynchings, right?
Or, or the mob who went to goand beat and mangle and dismember
black people and native people.
(13:27):
I'm not talking to those people.
I'm talking to the people whose familieswent to Sunday school every Sunday.
Whose parents were probably members of thedeacon board or the board of trustees, or
very well may have been the pastor, right?
Or, you know, I'm talkingto these families.
So, it's not like, um, they would seethemselves as families or members of
(13:53):
families who are white supremacists.
So, reconciling that and comingto that truth is very difficult.
And so, it does take someone, first ofall, who they trust, and I have to, I
do have to show up in a tender way in anauthentic way, and it took time, Alexis,
for, for that tenderness to becomeauthentic, for it to become a part of me.
(14:18):
'Cause when, when it firsthit, I was like, oh boy, you
know, here come the tears.
I don't need this.
I just need to get this project done soI can finish with my doctoral degree.
But God was like, yep, no, we're going,if we're going to do it, we're going to
do it real, we're going to do it whole.
That's also part of the life thatI'm called to as an educator.
It's not just about teaching alesson, which I wish it were.
(14:41):
But for me, it's often, it's mostoften been about showing with my
life the lesson that I'm trying toteach or that I'm called to teach.
Alexis Miles (14:51):
So Natarsha, can you tell a story, a short story that
illustrates what you just said aboutcoming into something maybe not full
of tenderness, but that evolving.
So, what does that look like, andwhat resources are you and the person
you're interviewing pulling on toreach trust, tenderness and bravery?
Natarsha Sanders (15:16):
So I will say, by and large, the trust is building as we go.
The people who have agreed to be apart of the research have known me
for maybe about four or five years.
And some of them have journeyedmore closely with me than others.
(15:39):
But all of the people knew of me beforeI reached out to them and said, "Will you
participate in this, in this research?"
And that was important forme because I knew where I was
going to ask us to go together.
So, I needed there to be at least amodicum and willingness of trust in
which they could engage in significant orheavy subject matter about their families
(16:04):
in many instances, uh, their parentsor siblings who are no longer with us.
And so, we're talking aboutfolks who've passed on and
that is always a tender space.
So, I wanted there to, um, alreadybe some type of relationship
and then to be able to leveragethat, taking it to another level.
So, I'm blessed in that the people whoknow that I'm working on my doctoral
(16:29):
degree really want me to do well, right?
That is a blessing and everybodydoesn't have that story, but I do.
And so, when I approach and I say thisis to help me finish my research, that is
already, um, kind of like a thumbs up fromthem like they want to do what they can to
(16:51):
assist and knowing that the, the way thatI'm asking them to assist is not monetary
but it actually comes from your life.
Because I don't always tell them upfront how they're going to assist me.
I tell them that I need them to assist.
And so, they agree to meet me, butso there's already the trust there.
One of the times, um, that I showed upwhere I will say I probably wasn't as
(17:16):
tender, uh, then that I, as I am now, iswe were watching, um, something called
The Identity (17:26):
White Rage, is a video series published by the PC USA, and we
were watching these videos and one ofthe videos, one of the videos in the
series deals with racial identity andthe, some of the people who are being
(17:48):
interviewed, talk about how white peoplein America often don't, uh, identify
racially like they are white, right?
Um, and then talking about race as aconstruct and it's not, it's, it's not
anything based in anything real, right?
It's a social construct.
So, they talk about all of that,but then they talk about the damage
(18:10):
that white supremacy has done toeveryone, in this particular video.
And so, you talk about how,yes, people from Ireland were
stripped of their ethnicity.
People from Germany werestripped of their ethnicity.
People from Italy werestripped of their ethnicity.
Um, and the closer you were to whitein America, the safer you were.
(18:32):
And so, the push was figure out yourethnicity, figure out who your people are,
um, go deeper than just whiteness, right?
Um, go to like, really,where are your people from?
Because white supremacy hasstolen something from everyone.
(18:53):
It has, it has stolenall of our identities.
And so, one of the people, um, watchingthe video talked about how they
didn't feel the need to do that, todo that work of racial identification.
And, um, they felt content knowingand they feel bad about what white
(19:15):
people have done, but there's nothingthat they can do to change the past.
And I said, well, they, while thatmay be true and I, I didn't say it as
kindly, but I said, while that may betrue, there's still a responsibility.
And so, we are left to deal withwhat our ancestors made, like
some of the mess that they made.
(19:35):
We're left to clean it up.
And, um, we kind of talked abouthow the role we have in owning
the sins of our ancestors, right?
Because I'm of the belief, I'm like,well, if you have an inheritance from
your grandfather, that may be monetaryor land, and you receive that, then
(19:56):
surely you can grapple and wrestle withthe hatred that was passed down as well.
Like you, can you own that as well?
But people don't want to.
And so, that was a moment of push thatthis person wasn't really able to receive.
Fast forward a couple months, I took acompletely different angle where I told
(20:19):
a story about talking with someone whodidn't quite understand human sexuality.
So, they had questions about LGBTQI+and people being children of God and
I was like, well, can we agree thateverybody's a child of God, and they did.
And so, I talked to them about how theywere homophobic and didn't know it.
(20:42):
So, because this person has a lovedone who is saying gender loving, they
were able to hear that and say, now Iunderstand what you mean by saying that
white supremacy has impacted us all.
Because while this person that I'm talkingto, um, helping them understand, um,
(21:04):
human sexuality and gender identity, theydidn't readily identify as homophobic.
They just thought, oh,being homosexual is a sin.
And then that means that Ineed to pray for these people
that their soul get right.
And I'm like, no, not really.
That means you're homophobic.
So just saying that, and then walkingthat path tenderly with them, helped
(21:28):
me understand how to walk thatpath tenderly with someone else.
And I was able to do that, Alexis,because I love this person genuinely.
And I said, if I can have this kindof love and compassion for one, then
I should be able to have this kindof love and compassion for many.
(21:48):
And so, this person that I'm walkingtenderly and gently with through
this, they need the same compassionand gentleness and care over here.
And so, I began to apply it.
And that's when I saw more people beginto say yes to the research opportunity,
and I began to grow as a person as itrelates to being tender in this space.
(22:12):
And I didn't know that Ineeded to grow in this.
And I probably would have neverknown had I not decided that this
is going to be my research journey.
Alexis Miles (22:24):
And that reminds me of what you said early that it truly is a journey.
You never reach the destination.
Natarsha Sanders (22:31):
Correct.
Gotta be in love with it.
Oh yes, I love this reconciliation.
Alexis Miles (22:37):
You have this quote I love, "It's the expectation is
not that you come in perfect."
It's that you come in and stay in.
Natarsha Sanders (22:45):
Yes.
Because so many people come and go.
And, we can't, we can't get the workdone when people are coming and going.
Like I, I like to use a cakeanalogy or anything or bacon.
If you keep the oven open,it's not going to get done,
(23:06):
whatever you're trying to cook.
And so, yes, it's hot and yes, it'suncomfortable, and no, we don't
necessarily want to be in here.
We want to be at reconciliationalready, but right now it's a dream.
It's a goal.
It's, it's an end.
And if we can, we can begin with theend in mind, but we have to begin and we
(23:29):
have to keep beginning every single day.
And, in order to get to an end, inorder to realize that this journey
that we're on, this path we're takingis hard work, but it's worth it work
because that's what we're called to.
When, when I realized that this was thework that I was called to, and there
(23:50):
was no, no real getting out of it, Itold somebody one time, if you can find
something else to do, do that, right?
Do that other thing.
What happened with me, Sam and Alexis,is that I couldn't rest at night.
I couldn't sleep well if I didn't do whatI was called to do in a given day, right?
(24:11):
And so I would be tossing and turning and,oh my gosh, I'm looking at the clock and
it's 4am and it's almost time to get upagain and I hadn't even been asleep yet.
And I can't live like that.
So, the get in and stay in forme is really about obedience
to the call and saying, yes.
And we do need people to get in andsaying, and that does take bravery
(24:35):
and courage and a willingness toacknowledge that we don't know.
We have to, our way ofknowing is together.
And together we really arebuilding a new way as we go.
And that's the scary part.
That's the, also the courageous part.
And knowing that no oneperson has the answer.
And it also takes so much unlearning.
(24:58):
So much unlearning that as adults, wehave kind of embedded in our heads, and I
imagine this is also where the compassioncame in for me with some of our elders,
is that they've been on a knowing journeyfor twice as long in many cases as I have.
And so, for them to unlearnthings that they've known their
(25:20):
whole 80-year life, lives is,it's a lot of, it's a lot to ask.
But when I, when they get inand they're willing to stay in,
that lets me know that they arecommitted and they want to do right.
And they all, they are also doingthe work of inheriting everything
(25:41):
that their parents left them andfiguring out what to do with it.
'Cause we don't have to accepteverything that was left for us.
In fact, we should turn a lot ofit down as it relates to emotional
intelligence and, um, dealing withthe love God's beloved community.
But absolutely we need people to stayin, but if you have to leave, leave.
Sam Fuqua (26:04):
As you know, the title of the podcast is, Well, That Went Sideways!
So, we'd like to ask our guests ifthere's a particular sideways moment,
uh, that comes to mind for you where,you know, you found yourself in a
conflict in the moment and, and how youhandled it, what you learned from it?
Natarsha Sanders (26:21):
Yes.
I can give, I can give two.
I can give a really funny oneand I can give a serious one.
So, uh, a funny onethat, that went sideways.
Um, I have the privilege of beingan auntie biologically to 13 nieces
and nephews, and they are allvarious different types of ages,
(26:42):
okay, from seven to soon-to-be-27.
So we got some, some range there.
One time, my youngest niece, I wasreading and it was actually Becoming
Brave by, um, Reverend, uh, Dr.
Brenda Salter McNeil.
And she likes to be read to, myniece, um, and so she's like,
(27:05):
"Can you read me the story?"
I'm like, "You want me to read you this?"
She said, "Yes, becausethat's what you're reading."
I'm like, "Okay, if you want toread, you'll probably be sent
for a page of Becoming Brave."
And so, I'm reading it, andshe, she says, um, "Are you like
Esther or am I like Esther?"
And I said, "Well, I don't know.
(27:26):
You tell me."
She says, "Mmh, I think I'm morelike Esther because I listen
to God better than you do."
Okay.
Okay.
So now you all up in my life andmy business about how I listen
to the Lord, but all right.
We had a further conversation abouthow, how do you know how I listen to
God, because I really do believe whenchildren say things like that, that
(27:49):
they are speaking beyond what they see.
Um, and so, um, I learned, I genuinelylearned quite a bit from my six-year-old
baby in that particular conversation.
But it definitely went sideways 'causefirst of all, I was not expecting her
to say yes to me reading her that book.
I wanted her to bring me one of her littlestorybooks, but that is not how that went.
(28:10):
And so, talk about going sidewaysand my little plan backfired.
She has continued to be ourlittle hot tamale ever since,
like, since she was born.
Another time that something wentsideways, I will have to say,
(28:31):
when I actually allowed someoneto make an assumption about me.
Um, one of the things I'm learningis to, um, just really let people
people, and however they showup, that is how they show up.
And so, uh, got to a space andthe person that I was supposed
(28:52):
to be facilitating with was notwell, so they couldn't attend.
So, you know, COVID times, we like,please keep your germs where they are.
So, they couldn't be there.
Um, but I was at, not met this groupof people before, just the, uh, phone
call and email, not even, but wehaven't even seen each other on Zoom.
(29:14):
I was supposed to be kind of thebackup sidekick, but it turns out that
I'm here, front person leading this.
And so, I get there, um, they, uh,introduced me to the person who was in
charge and the, this person proceedsto call me by the name of the person
who was supposed to show up, completelyoverlooking the fact that we look nothing
(29:36):
alike and that's just not my name.
So, I let him do it, and thepeople were okay with that.
And so, at the very end, oneperson asked me why did I let him
continue to introduce me as that?
And I said, "Well, he just made anassumption that that was my name.
(29:59):
He never asked my name."
And their response was of, wasthat, well, you should be willing to
introduce yourself among people, and,um, while I am, I also want there
to be a lesson in mostly everything.
Uh, the lesson that I hoped to getto was that you always ask people
(30:23):
about their identity and who they are.
But, but we got lost in the sauce in thatmoment, um, because they were genuinely
confused and really thought that I wasthat person who was supposed to show up.
And so, we spent like amonth trying to undo that.
(30:44):
It also showed me that people reallydo get set in their ways, like
refusing to acknowledge that I'm notthis person and really latching on
to the thought that I'm someone else.
So, I think it went sideways for bothof us because the impact that I wanted
it to have, it didn't have that impact.
(31:05):
They were just, they justended up confused, and that's
not how I wanted that to go.
So, that definitely went sideways.
Um, and there's so many other sidewaysstories now that I'm talking about.
But yeah, sometimes, sometimes, Sam,I just feel like I just need to,
um, walk through life on the side,and so it, when it goes sideways,
(31:27):
it actually goes the right side up.
Sam Fuqua (31:30):
I'm going to remember that.
Thank you.
It's, it's clearly, this isimportant and difficult work
leading people to understanding,to recognition, to owning up.
Do you have hope or vision for,uh, that work expanding or whether
it's within the Presbyterian Churchor, or other faith communities?
Natarsha Sanders (31:49):
I do believe that the earlier we start, the better.
So, I'm working on working withyounger people so they won't have to
unpack 80 years of stuff to begin thejourney of reconciliation, or, you
know, maybe they only have to unpack20 years, which is much easier, right?
(32:10):
So, I'm working with some colleges andeven camps that are on this journey
of vocational discernment and thatI see as part of discernment, like
knowing who you are definitely helpslead into your vocational, um, journey.
And so, I've done some, some workwith camp counselors whose, their
(32:34):
ages tend to be around the late,like 18 to 25-ish, in that range.
And that's been really rewarding.
But I do see, I do see the work expanding.
That is my goal.
And I also want to be able to do workwith, uh, pastors who want to lead their
(32:55):
congregations on this type of journey.
Again, because leveraging the relationshipand the trust is very important.
And most congregations havea pastor that they trust.
And so, being able to equip spiritualleaders, specifically pastors and or
Christian educators or religious educatorsin this way, I think would be a good
(33:20):
way to help the work expand beyond me.
And there's also some writing thatI'm, I've been doing kind of as I
work on the research, and I hopeto create a curriculum that will
help guide people through this.
So there, there is some hopes of expansiononly because the work is necessary.
(33:45):
And there are some amazing people whohave been on this journey for so long.
I've referenced Reverend Dr.
Brenda Salter McNeil.
She's amazing out in Seattle.
And even, um, Lisa Sharon Harper,her latest book Fortune is about
(34:05):
the journey for uncovering race andancestry and her family, and how
it can help shape a family unit.
Um, and then, uh, Dr.
Christina Cleveland is another personwho has helped shape me theologically
as well as so many other people.
But those three women are like at theforefront of my mind, part because
(34:28):
I've been reading their books actively.
But there, there is a hope.
There's also a hope thatthis work isn't necessary.
But every time I say that I am assuredby the God who created us, that as
long as there are people on the Earth,people will need to be reconciled.
(34:52):
And so, I don't do it foraccolades because that is a
route that some people take.
I do it because I can't avoid it, whichis also why I tell people, if you can
do something else, you better do it.
And I say it jokingly, but I'malso very serious, in a loving way.
(35:14):
It's, it's part of me helpingyou on your vocational journey.
Alexis Miles (35:18):
Natarsha, so when you say reconciled, can you say more about
what that means and what it looks like?
How, how do people who arereconciled relate to each other?
Natarsha Sanders (35:33):
In many ways, um, Alexis, I'm still learning because when
I think about the prophets that I'vestudied in the Bible, most recently
I'm studying Nehemiah, and when Ithink about who I would consider
modern day prophets, I think oneof the go to's is Dr., Reverend Dr.
(35:57):
Martin Luther King Jr., andeven, um, Mother Teresa.
People have very adverseresponses to their lives.
And so, why, while these peoplewho were and are indeed reconcilers
(36:18):
were alive, they were wanted dead.
That is not reconciliation.
But after they were dead, after theyceased to exist in their physical
bodies, they became beloved.
(36:43):
Even, even talking about Jesus, hehad, poor thing, people wanted him dead
from the time he was in Mary's womb.
And, um, they eventually got him.
It, we, we began to celebrate himmany, many years after his death.
(37:04):
So, we see that with the, Dr.
King, we see that with the prophets inthe Bible, we have a,a, a Bible with
prophetic books, because the wordsthey spoke in the days of old were
not, were written where, they werewritten, but not necessarily revered.
And so, I do believe though, that theirlives were examples of lives reconciled or
(37:34):
reconciling to God, trying to get us backto a place where we could commune with
God in a spiritual way, spirit to spirit.
And the physical, our physical being,our greed in many instances, is what
(37:55):
has kept us as humans apart or separate.
I mean, we don't have to lookvery far to see how socioeconomics
divide us, race divides us,we're divided by so many things.
But we're called, those who arecalled to reconciliation are called
(38:18):
to bring people together to reconcilethose things that once separated us.
So, I will say that there are some keycomponents of reconciliation, and love
and truth are two of those things.
(38:40):
I think it's, um, Dr.
Cornell West that says justice is whatloves, love looks like in public, right?
Or something to that effect that he said.
And even Bryan Stevenson saidthat the opposite of poverty
(39:01):
is not wealth, it's justice.
And so, in a world that is filled,uh, almost to capacity with injustice
and where the cries for justice arelong and the cries for reconciliation
(39:21):
are ample, it's hard to see it here,which is why I believe it is a dream.
It's something that has beenvisualized, but not actualized.
And, part of my prayer and partof my communion with God and my
(39:45):
plea is God, why would you showme something that I can't have?
I don't see it manifesting in this life.
That is a point of,uh, bereavement for me.
Like it makes me sad.
'Cause I think about so manypeople who have been here before.
(40:07):
I think about how Nehemiah was killed andhow Isaiah was killed and Jesus was killed
and King and, uh, so many people, right?
Um, just because they wantedleaders to be led by love and truth.
And this is what we, we arewilling to die and live for.
(40:32):
Like I w, I don't want to, I don'twant to die because of the message
of truth and hope and love I bring.
I want to live.
But it too often has causedor cost those who call for
reconciliation in the public square.
It costs lives.
And so, I know what's inmy mind and in my heart.
(40:57):
I know what I've seen.
And it's nothing different than whatmy fore-parents have called for.
Um, it's not new.
It's the thing we all hope for.
But we don't know how, we are, and we'reall trying to figure out how to get it.
(41:17):
How to actualize it.
How to manifest it.
How to keep greed at bay long enoughto say this right here, even if it
only lasted for ten minutes, thatwas an example of reconciliation.
We need to replicate that.
We need to do that.
That's what led us there.
And if I could get people to come in andstay in, then that's how we get there.
(41:42):
That's how we get to reconciliation onthis journey of like, it's just a walk.
It's a journey.
But we've got to be committed to itbecause we've done some harm to God's
creation, and we have to be willingto, to own it and then reconcile back
(42:02):
to it and seek forgiveness, not justto God, but to one another as well.
So it, to answer your question,um, Alexis, I, I know that some
components to reconciliation is loveand truth and a heap of justice.
(42:24):
And I long for the day when it can bemanifest on Earth as it is in heaven.
That's what we pray.
And that's what I believe.
Sam Fuqua (42:36):
Natarsha Prince Sanders, thank you so much for speaking with
us and thank you for your work.
Natarsha Sanders (42:40):
Thank you so much for this opportunity and I look
forward to hearing more of your work.
Sam Fuqua (42:51):
Natasha Prince Sanders is a speaker, a teacher, a life
coach, and a community pastor.
She's also a doctoral student atColumbia Theological Seminary.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(43:13):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(43:34):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute nations.
(43:54):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.
org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
And we're all trying to figure out how to get it.
How to actualize it.
How to manifest it.
How to keep greed at bay longenough to say this right here, even
if it only lasted for 10 minutes.
That was an example of reconciliation.
We need to replicate that.
We need to do that.
That's what led us there.
And if I could get people to come in andstay in, then that's how we get there.
(00:34):
It's a journey.
But we've got to be committed to itbecause we've done some harm to God's
creation, and we have to be willingto, to own it, and then reconcile back
to it and seek forgiveness, not justto God, but to one another, as well.
Sam Fuqua (00:56):
That's Natarsha Prince Sanders, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk withNatarsha Prince Sanders about racial
(01:19):
justice and spiritual development.
She's a speaker, teacher, and communitypastor, as well as a doctoral student
at Columbia Theological Seminary.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:35):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:37):
So glad to have Natarsha Prince Sanders with us for this conversation.
Hello.
Natarsha Sanders (01:41):
Hello, you all.
Hey, thank you so much forhaving me for this conversation.
Sam Fuqua (01:46):
We met at the White Privilege Conference, uh, in Mesa, Arizona,
and we're glad to reconnect with you.
Tell us a little bit about your backgroundand, and how you got started on this,
this particular path within your faith.
Natarsha Sanders (01:59):
Thank you so much for that question.
And it does seem like so long agowhen we met, um, but I also feel like
I've, I've known you all 'cause nowI've started following your work.
So, I appreciate the work that youall offer, um, in spaces like these.
So, I got started on this path ofreconciliation, I'll call it, it was
(02:20):
actually at a dinner with my family,um, my immediate and extended family.
Um, my mother has, uh, sixbrothers and they were kind of
gathered around the table talkingabout the, their school days.
And, um, I listened as they were inconversation and they began to talk
(02:45):
about people who had not been so niceto them and wondering where they were,
um, at this point in their lives.
And my uncles now are all considered,would be considered elderly.
They would have, um, AARPmembership, so say that.
So, they're up in age, uh, but they werewondering where some of their classmates
(03:10):
were who weren't so kind to them.
And I, I thought about if my uncles,um, and my mom are alive and well to
remember some of the atrocities that werevisited, uh, on them, that the people who
did it might be alive and well as, also.
And, I got to wondering what theytalked about around their dinner table.
(03:33):
Um, what they would tell their childrenand their nieces and nephews about
their back in the day in school,like what, what was their story?
What story are they telling?
was my question.
And so, I proceeded on a journeyto try to figure that out.
And so, that's where I am.
Sam Fuqua (03:53):
Well, I love that you're centering that around stories.
The power of stories.
Natarsha Sanders (03:58):
One of the things I found is people are more willing to
tell a story than just go right intoanswering a question, if you will.
So, if I say something like, do youremember your third grade teacher?
Most of the people that I've askedthis question do in fact remember, but
(04:19):
I'd rather say, tell me about schoolwhen you were in third grade, right?
That's all.
It seems very unassuming, right?
And so, people are more willing toengage with that type of prompt, given
our nation's history with segregationin schools and then, uh, desegregation.
(04:43):
Um, because that's ultimately where I'mgetting it when I request that prompt, but
they don't always know that that's whereI'm going when I request that prompt.
So, they engage veryopenly in the beginning.
Sam Fuqua (04:57):
Maybe as an example, I recall that when we spoke at the conference,
you talked about work you were doingwith an elderly white man in the church,
member of the Presbyterian Church, Ibelieve, uh, who was kind of coming to
terms with, uh, with his own racism.
Uh, do you remember thatexample and can you speak to it?
Natarsha Sanders (05:17):
Yes.
So, um, I have worked with anumber of individuals now, um,
just as part of my research.
And, one of the oldest members orindividuals that I've worked with
is entering his nineties, and he wasremembering some of the songs and
(05:38):
some of the things that he did as achild, as a five and six-year-old.
And, it was one point in ourinterview where I think it just
dawned on him that he was, in fact,a product of white supremacy, right?
(05:58):
And he paused and looked at mewith teary eyes and said, "I've
never talked about this before.
And I didn't know how hurtful it was."
So, from that moment, um, whatI learned, uh, Sam and Alexis,
first of all, was to use a littlecompassion when operating in this way.
(06:25):
Um, and so I sought, um, some resourceson how to, um, engage pastoral
care during these tender moments.
But also, how to help them go furtherinto the story without inflicting any
type of emotional or psychological harm.
(06:47):
Um, so I do encourage them to,to do therapy alongside this
kind of unearthing of story.
But, the wrestle is that alot of times people didn't
want to unearth these stories.
One, because they didn't know thatthey were stories worth telling.
It's like, so what?
I sang Yankee Doodle and I thoughtGeorge Washington was the greatest
(07:11):
president alive as a five year old child.
What, what does it haveto do with anything?
So, they don't think it's important,but then when they realize that it
actually is important, how to talkabout it among their friends and
also towards the end of life, right?
I said that this personwas entering his eighties.
(07:33):
So, at this time, you're really wantingto be making peace and living your
last days and okay with everything.
So to unearth something that mighttake longer to reconcile than you have
life left, is a very big act of couragebecause no one wants to close their eyes
(07:55):
finally in disarray or with dis, dis,disarray in their spirit or their soul.
And so, working toward that endis, is indeed an act of bravery.
And I, I invite people into it, butthere are also those who choose to
not, and I'm just as okay with thatas well because it is a brave work.
Alexis Miles (08:16):
Natarsha, you've used two words that really
intrigued me in this context.
You talked about tenderness and bravery.
Can you say more about that, and what youmean when you say this is a brave work?
Natarsha Sanders (08:31):
Absolutely.
Dr.
Brenda Salter McNeil in her, um,most recent book, Becoming Brave, she
parallels the story of Esther in theBible, who was ultimately called to be
a queen and free people, um, using herpolitical post, um, and title as a queen.
(08:54):
But she talked about Esther's beginningand the journey of her life and
parallels it through the journey, manyjourneys that we take as Christian
folk and where we are called to.
Particularly in the work ofreconciliation, um, because while
it is a, it's a, it can be kind ofa buzzword, nice to say, cliche-ish,
(09:18):
those of us who live our lives into itunderstand the risks and the bravery
that's required to be in that space.
And so, I use that word in partbecause the, the word brave, um, in
part because this is not work thateverybody chooses to do, and it's, but
(09:39):
it's work that we are all called to.
We're all called to reconcile.
We're all, we're called to reconcilewith our siblings, in Christ, which would
be all of humanity, and we're called toreconcile ourselves to God through Christ.
And so, understanding that as aChristian, as a follower of Christ,
(10:02):
that is a brave work because it requiresus, one, to be vulnerable, trust,
trusting ourselves in these moments, andtrusting the God who called us to it.
And we don't alwaysknow where it will end.
Um, we open ourselves up to theunknown because we live in a world
(10:22):
that is by and large unreconciled.
So we don't, we don't reallyknow how reconciliation looks
in this body, in this life.
And so, when we, it is a brave workbecause the end, it's not known.
We don't know when we get there.
And it's also a work that, thatis, I'll say, when you think
(10:47):
you've done it, keep doing it.
There's no destination.
The journey of reconciliation is thework because just when you think you
have done it right and done it well,you're called to a deeper level.
Um, and so, it is brave tocontinue to surrender yourself to
(11:07):
a work that is really beyond you.
Like, I really need the people thatI've gathered for this research
project to be engaged and do it.
I cannot do this by myself.
I cannot reconcilemyself, by myself, right?
And so, I'm vulnerable to a point wherelike, I need my siblings to be just as
(11:31):
committed to the work that, as I am.
And so, that is the part thatleads me into tenderness.
When I first started this journey, I'min this research, I thought, I am so sick
and tired of white people researching andputting labels on me as a black woman.
(11:54):
I'm tired of people saying, well, I'mtired of white people saying, well, this
is what black women or black people need.
Or this is what black,black people, um, want.
Research has shown...
And I'm like, well, that may be trueof your research, but I really got
tired of hearing people from outsideof who I am, tell me about me.
(12:16):
And so, the stubborn kind of, mmh,we-going-to-see-about-that part of
me said, I'm going to research youand see how good it feels, right?
And so it was kind of, there was,that was not the right attitude.
This is probably why one of the firstthings, my first conversation pulled
some tenderness out of me because Ithink God was saying, "Honey, now, if
(12:40):
you're going to do this, you have todo this from a place of love, right?"
Even if it's radical.
And so, being tender to the point whereI can sit with a person when they are
on the, on the verge of tears, or reallytrying to redeem their parents memory and
(13:05):
make sure that the memory of their parentisn't painted in an ugly way like, "Oh, my
parents were white supremacists," right?
Because I'm not talking to people whoseparents participated in lynchings, right?
Or, or the mob who went to goand beat and mangle and dismember
black people and native people.
(13:27):
I'm not talking to those people.
I'm talking to the people whose familieswent to Sunday school every Sunday.
Whose parents were probably members of thedeacon board or the board of trustees, or
very well may have been the pastor, right?
Or, you know, I'm talkingto these families.
So, it's not like, um, they would seethemselves as families or members of
(13:53):
families who are white supremacists.
So, reconciling that and comingto that truth is very difficult.
And so, it does take someone, first ofall, who they trust, and I have to, I
do have to show up in a tender way in anauthentic way, and it took time, Alexis,
for, for that tenderness to becomeauthentic, for it to become a part of me.
(14:18):
'Cause when, when it firsthit, I was like, oh boy, you
know, here come the tears.
I don't need this.
I just need to get this project done soI can finish with my doctoral degree.
But God was like, yep, no, we're going,if we're going to do it, we're going to
do it real, we're going to do it whole.
That's also part of the life thatI'm called to as an educator.
It's not just about teaching alesson, which I wish it were.
(14:41):
But for me, it's often, it's mostoften been about showing with my
life the lesson that I'm trying toteach or that I'm called to teach.
Alexis Miles (14:51):
So Natarsha, can you tell a story, a short story that
illustrates what you just said aboutcoming into something maybe not full
of tenderness, but that evolving.
So, what does that look like, andwhat resources are you and the person
you're interviewing pulling on toreach trust, tenderness and bravery?
Natarsha Sanders (15:16):
So I will say, by and large, the trust is building as we go.
The people who have agreed to be apart of the research have known me
for maybe about four or five years.
And some of them have journeyedmore closely with me than others.
(15:39):
But all of the people knew of me beforeI reached out to them and said, "Will you
participate in this, in this research?"
And that was important forme because I knew where I was
going to ask us to go together.
So, I needed there to be at least amodicum and willingness of trust in
which they could engage in significant orheavy subject matter about their families
(16:04):
in many instances, uh, their parentsor siblings who are no longer with us.
And so, we're talking aboutfolks who've passed on and
that is always a tender space.
So, I wanted there to, um, alreadybe some type of relationship
and then to be able to leveragethat, taking it to another level.
So, I'm blessed in that the people whoknow that I'm working on my doctoral
(16:29):
degree really want me to do well, right?
That is a blessing and everybodydoesn't have that story, but I do.
And so, when I approach and I say thisis to help me finish my research, that is
already, um, kind of like a thumbs up fromthem like they want to do what they can to
(16:51):
assist and knowing that the, the way thatI'm asking them to assist is not monetary
but it actually comes from your life.
Because I don't always tell them upfront how they're going to assist me.
I tell them that I need them to assist.
And so, they agree to meet me, butso there's already the trust there.
One of the times, um, that I showed upwhere I will say I probably wasn't as
(17:16):
tender, uh, then that I, as I am now, iswe were watching, um, something called
The Identity (17:26):
White Rage, is a video series published by the PC USA, and we
were watching these videos and one ofthe videos, one of the videos in the
series deals with racial identity andthe, some of the people who are being
(17:48):
interviewed, talk about how white peoplein America often don't, uh, identify
racially like they are white, right?
Um, and then talking about race as aconstruct and it's not, it's, it's not
anything based in anything real, right?
It's a social construct.
So, they talk about all of that,but then they talk about the damage
(18:10):
that white supremacy has done toeveryone, in this particular video.
And so, you talk about how,yes, people from Ireland were
stripped of their ethnicity.
People from Germany werestripped of their ethnicity.
People from Italy werestripped of their ethnicity.
Um, and the closer you were to whitein America, the safer you were.
(18:32):
And so, the push was figure out yourethnicity, figure out who your people are,
um, go deeper than just whiteness, right?
Um, go to like, really,where are your people from?
Because white supremacy hasstolen something from everyone.
(18:53):
It has, it has stolenall of our identities.
And so, one of the people, um, watchingthe video talked about how they
didn't feel the need to do that, todo that work of racial identification.
And, um, they felt content knowingand they feel bad about what white
(19:15):
people have done, but there's nothingthat they can do to change the past.
And I said, well, they, while thatmay be true and I, I didn't say it as
kindly, but I said, while that may betrue, there's still a responsibility.
And so, we are left to deal withwhat our ancestors made, like
some of the mess that they made.
(19:35):
We're left to clean it up.
And, um, we kind of talked abouthow the role we have in owning
the sins of our ancestors, right?
Because I'm of the belief, I'm like,well, if you have an inheritance from
your grandfather, that may be monetaryor land, and you receive that, then
(19:56):
surely you can grapple and wrestle withthe hatred that was passed down as well.
Like you, can you own that as well?
But people don't want to.
And so, that was a moment of push thatthis person wasn't really able to receive.
Fast forward a couple months, I took acompletely different angle where I told
(20:19):
a story about talking with someone whodidn't quite understand human sexuality.
So, they had questions about LGBTQI+and people being children of God and
I was like, well, can we agree thateverybody's a child of God, and they did.
And so, I talked to them about how theywere homophobic and didn't know it.
(20:42):
So, because this person has a lovedone who is saying gender loving, they
were able to hear that and say, now Iunderstand what you mean by saying that
white supremacy has impacted us all.
Because while this person that I'm talkingto, um, helping them understand, um,
(21:04):
human sexuality and gender identity, theydidn't readily identify as homophobic.
They just thought, oh,being homosexual is a sin.
And then that means that Ineed to pray for these people
that their soul get right.
And I'm like, no, not really.
That means you're homophobic.
So just saying that, and then walkingthat path tenderly with them, helped
(21:28):
me understand how to walk thatpath tenderly with someone else.
And I was able to do that, Alexis,because I love this person genuinely.
And I said, if I can have this kindof love and compassion for one, then
I should be able to have this kindof love and compassion for many.
(21:48):
And so, this person that I'm walkingtenderly and gently with through
this, they need the same compassionand gentleness and care over here.
And so, I began to apply it.
And that's when I saw more people beginto say yes to the research opportunity,
and I began to grow as a person as itrelates to being tender in this space.
(22:12):
And I didn't know that Ineeded to grow in this.
And I probably would have neverknown had I not decided that this
is going to be my research journey.
Alexis Miles (22:24):
And that reminds me of what you said early that it truly is a journey.
You never reach the destination.
Natarsha Sanders (22:31):
Correct.
Gotta be in love with it.
Oh yes, I love this reconciliation.
Alexis Miles (22:37):
You have this quote I love, "It's the expectation is
not that you come in perfect."
It's that you come in and stay in.
Natarsha Sanders (22:45):
Yes.
Because so many people come and go.
And, we can't, we can't get the workdone when people are coming and going.
Like I, I like to use a cakeanalogy or anything or bacon.
If you keep the oven open,it's not going to get done,
(23:06):
whatever you're trying to cook.
And so, yes, it's hot and yes, it'suncomfortable, and no, we don't
necessarily want to be in here.
We want to be at reconciliationalready, but right now it's a dream.
It's a goal.
It's, it's an end.
And if we can, we can begin with theend in mind, but we have to begin and we
(23:29):
have to keep beginning every single day.
And, in order to get to an end, inorder to realize that this journey
that we're on, this path we're takingis hard work, but it's worth it work
because that's what we're called to.
When, when I realized that this was thework that I was called to, and there
(23:50):
was no, no real getting out of it, Itold somebody one time, if you can find
something else to do, do that, right?
Do that other thing.
What happened with me, Sam and Alexis,is that I couldn't rest at night.
I couldn't sleep well if I didn't do whatI was called to do in a given day, right?
(24:11):
And so I would be tossing and turning and,oh my gosh, I'm looking at the clock and
it's 4am and it's almost time to get upagain and I hadn't even been asleep yet.
And I can't live like that.
So, the get in and stay in forme is really about obedience
to the call and saying, yes.
And we do need people to get in andsaying, and that does take bravery
(24:35):
and courage and a willingness toacknowledge that we don't know.
We have to, our way ofknowing is together.
And together we really arebuilding a new way as we go.
And that's the scary part.
That's the, also the courageous part.
And knowing that no oneperson has the answer.
And it also takes so much unlearning.
(24:58):
So much unlearning that as adults, wehave kind of embedded in our heads, and I
imagine this is also where the compassioncame in for me with some of our elders,
is that they've been on a knowing journeyfor twice as long in many cases as I have.
And so, for them to unlearnthings that they've known their
(25:20):
whole 80-year life, lives is,it's a lot of, it's a lot to ask.
But when I, when they get inand they're willing to stay in,
that lets me know that they arecommitted and they want to do right.
And they all, they are also doingthe work of inheriting everything
(25:41):
that their parents left them andfiguring out what to do with it.
'Cause we don't have to accepteverything that was left for us.
In fact, we should turn a lot ofit down as it relates to emotional
intelligence and, um, dealing withthe love God's beloved community.
But absolutely we need people to stayin, but if you have to leave, leave.
Sam Fuqua (26:04):
As you know, the title of the podcast is, Well, That Went Sideways!
So, we'd like to ask our guests ifthere's a particular sideways moment,
uh, that comes to mind for you where,you know, you found yourself in a
conflict in the moment and, and how youhandled it, what you learned from it?
Natarsha Sanders (26:21):
Yes.
I can give, I can give two.
I can give a really funny oneand I can give a serious one.
So, uh, a funny onethat, that went sideways.
Um, I have the privilege of beingan auntie biologically to 13 nieces
and nephews, and they are allvarious different types of ages,
(26:42):
okay, from seven to soon-to-be-27.
So we got some, some range there.
One time, my youngest niece, I wasreading and it was actually Becoming
Brave by, um, Reverend, uh, Dr.
Brenda Salter McNeil.
And she likes to be read to, myniece, um, and so she's like,
(27:05):
"Can you read me the story?"
I'm like, "You want me to read you this?"
She said, "Yes, becausethat's what you're reading."
I'm like, "Okay, if you want toread, you'll probably be sent
for a page of Becoming Brave."
And so, I'm reading it, andshe, she says, um, "Are you like
Esther or am I like Esther?"
And I said, "Well, I don't know.
(27:26):
You tell me."
She says, "Mmh, I think I'm morelike Esther because I listen
to God better than you do."
Okay.
Okay.
So now you all up in my life andmy business about how I listen
to the Lord, but all right.
We had a further conversation abouthow, how do you know how I listen to
God, because I really do believe whenchildren say things like that, that
(27:49):
they are speaking beyond what they see.
Um, and so, um, I learned, I genuinelylearned quite a bit from my six-year-old
baby in that particular conversation.
But it definitely went sideways 'causefirst of all, I was not expecting her
to say yes to me reading her that book.
I wanted her to bring me one of her littlestorybooks, but that is not how that went.
(28:10):
And so, talk about going sidewaysand my little plan backfired.
She has continued to be ourlittle hot tamale ever since,
like, since she was born.
Another time that something wentsideways, I will have to say,
(28:31):
when I actually allowed someoneto make an assumption about me.
Um, one of the things I'm learningis to, um, just really let people
people, and however they showup, that is how they show up.
And so, uh, got to a space andthe person that I was supposed
(28:52):
to be facilitating with was notwell, so they couldn't attend.
So, you know, COVID times, we like,please keep your germs where they are.
So, they couldn't be there.
Um, but I was at, not met this groupof people before, just the, uh, phone
call and email, not even, but wehaven't even seen each other on Zoom.
(29:14):
I was supposed to be kind of thebackup sidekick, but it turns out that
I'm here, front person leading this.
And so, I get there, um, they, uh,introduced me to the person who was in
charge and the, this person proceedsto call me by the name of the person
who was supposed to show up, completelyoverlooking the fact that we look nothing
(29:36):
alike and that's just not my name.
So, I let him do it, and thepeople were okay with that.
And so, at the very end, oneperson asked me why did I let him
continue to introduce me as that?
And I said, "Well, he just made anassumption that that was my name.
(29:59):
He never asked my name."
And their response was of, wasthat, well, you should be willing to
introduce yourself among people, and,um, while I am, I also want there
to be a lesson in mostly everything.
Uh, the lesson that I hoped to getto was that you always ask people
(30:23):
about their identity and who they are.
But, but we got lost in the sauce in thatmoment, um, because they were genuinely
confused and really thought that I wasthat person who was supposed to show up.
And so, we spent like amonth trying to undo that.
(30:44):
It also showed me that people reallydo get set in their ways, like
refusing to acknowledge that I'm notthis person and really latching on
to the thought that I'm someone else.
So, I think it went sideways for bothof us because the impact that I wanted
it to have, it didn't have that impact.
(31:05):
They were just, they justended up confused, and that's
not how I wanted that to go.
So, that definitely went sideways.
Um, and there's so many other sidewaysstories now that I'm talking about.
But yeah, sometimes, sometimes, Sam,I just feel like I just need to,
um, walk through life on the side,and so it, when it goes sideways,
(31:27):
it actually goes the right side up.
Sam Fuqua (31:30):
I'm going to remember that.
Thank you.
It's, it's clearly, this isimportant and difficult work
leading people to understanding,to recognition, to owning up.
Do you have hope or vision for,uh, that work expanding or whether
it's within the Presbyterian Churchor, or other faith communities?
Natarsha Sanders (31:49):
I do believe that the earlier we start, the better.
So, I'm working on working withyounger people so they won't have to
unpack 80 years of stuff to begin thejourney of reconciliation, or, you
know, maybe they only have to unpack20 years, which is much easier, right?
(32:10):
So, I'm working with some colleges andeven camps that are on this journey
of vocational discernment and thatI see as part of discernment, like
knowing who you are definitely helpslead into your vocational, um, journey.
And so, I've done some, some workwith camp counselors whose, their
(32:34):
ages tend to be around the late,like 18 to 25-ish, in that range.
And that's been really rewarding.
But I do see, I do see the work expanding.
That is my goal.
And I also want to be able to do workwith, uh, pastors who want to lead their
(32:55):
congregations on this type of journey.
Again, because leveraging the relationshipand the trust is very important.
And most congregations havea pastor that they trust.
And so, being able to equip spiritualleaders, specifically pastors and or
Christian educators or religious educatorsin this way, I think would be a good
(33:20):
way to help the work expand beyond me.
And there's also some writing thatI'm, I've been doing kind of as I
work on the research, and I hopeto create a curriculum that will
help guide people through this.
So there, there is some hopes of expansiononly because the work is necessary.
(33:45):
And there are some amazing people whohave been on this journey for so long.
I've referenced Reverend Dr.
Brenda Salter McNeil.
She's amazing out in Seattle.
And even, um, Lisa Sharon Harper,her latest book Fortune is about
(34:05):
the journey for uncovering race andancestry and her family, and how
it can help shape a family unit.
Um, and then, uh, Dr.
Christina Cleveland is another personwho has helped shape me theologically
as well as so many other people.
But those three women are like at theforefront of my mind, part because
(34:28):
I've been reading their books actively.
But there, there is a hope.
There's also a hope thatthis work isn't necessary.
But every time I say that I am assuredby the God who created us, that as
long as there are people on the Earth,people will need to be reconciled.
(34:52):
And so, I don't do it foraccolades because that is a
route that some people take.
I do it because I can't avoid it, whichis also why I tell people, if you can
do something else, you better do it.
And I say it jokingly, but I'malso very serious, in a loving way.
(35:14):
It's, it's part of me helpingyou on your vocational journey.
Alexis Miles (35:18):
Natarsha, so when you say reconciled, can you say more about
what that means and what it looks like?
How, how do people who arereconciled relate to each other?
Natarsha Sanders (35:33):
In many ways, um, Alexis, I'm still learning because when
I think about the prophets that I'vestudied in the Bible, most recently
I'm studying Nehemiah, and when Ithink about who I would consider
modern day prophets, I think oneof the go to's is Dr., Reverend Dr.
(35:57):
Martin Luther King Jr., andeven, um, Mother Teresa.
People have very adverseresponses to their lives.
And so, why, while these peoplewho were and are indeed reconcilers
(36:18):
were alive, they were wanted dead.
That is not reconciliation.
But after they were dead, after theyceased to exist in their physical
bodies, they became beloved.
(36:43):
Even, even talking about Jesus, hehad, poor thing, people wanted him dead
from the time he was in Mary's womb.
And, um, they eventually got him.
It, we, we began to celebrate himmany, many years after his death.
(37:04):
So, we see that with the, Dr.
King, we see that with the prophets inthe Bible, we have a,a, a Bible with
prophetic books, because the wordsthey spoke in the days of old were
not, were written where, they werewritten, but not necessarily revered.
And so, I do believe though, that theirlives were examples of lives reconciled or
(37:34):
reconciling to God, trying to get us backto a place where we could commune with
God in a spiritual way, spirit to spirit.
And the physical, our physical being,our greed in many instances, is what
(37:55):
has kept us as humans apart or separate.
I mean, we don't have to lookvery far to see how socioeconomics
divide us, race divides us,we're divided by so many things.
But we're called, those who arecalled to reconciliation are called
(38:18):
to bring people together to reconcilethose things that once separated us.
So, I will say that there are some keycomponents of reconciliation, and love
and truth are two of those things.
(38:40):
I think it's, um, Dr.
Cornell West that says justice is whatloves, love looks like in public, right?
Or something to that effect that he said.
And even Bryan Stevenson saidthat the opposite of poverty
(39:01):
is not wealth, it's justice.
And so, in a world that is filled,uh, almost to capacity with injustice
and where the cries for justice arelong and the cries for reconciliation
(39:21):
are ample, it's hard to see it here,which is why I believe it is a dream.
It's something that has beenvisualized, but not actualized.
And, part of my prayer and partof my communion with God and my
(39:45):
plea is God, why would you showme something that I can't have?
I don't see it manifesting in this life.
That is a point of,uh, bereavement for me.
Like it makes me sad.
'Cause I think about so manypeople who have been here before.
(40:07):
I think about how Nehemiah was killed andhow Isaiah was killed and Jesus was killed
and King and, uh, so many people, right?
Um, just because they wantedleaders to be led by love and truth.
And this is what we, we arewilling to die and live for.
(40:32):
Like I w, I don't want to, I don'twant to die because of the message
of truth and hope and love I bring.
I want to live.
But it too often has causedor cost those who call for
reconciliation in the public square.
It costs lives.
And so, I know what's inmy mind and in my heart.
(40:57):
I know what I've seen.
And it's nothing different than whatmy fore-parents have called for.
Um, it's not new.
It's the thing we all hope for.
But we don't know how, we are, and we'reall trying to figure out how to get it.
(41:17):
How to actualize it.
How to manifest it.
How to keep greed at bay long enoughto say this right here, even if it
only lasted for ten minutes, thatwas an example of reconciliation.
We need to replicate that.
We need to do that.
That's what led us there.
And if I could get people to come in andstay in, then that's how we get there.
(41:42):
That's how we get to reconciliation onthis journey of like, it's just a walk.
It's a journey.
But we've got to be committed to itbecause we've done some harm to God's
creation, and we have to be willingto, to own it and then reconcile back
(42:02):
to it and seek forgiveness, not justto God, but to one another as well.
So it, to answer your question,um, Alexis, I, I know that some
components to reconciliation is loveand truth and a heap of justice.
(42:24):
And I long for the day when it can bemanifest on Earth as it is in heaven.
That's what we pray.
And that's what I believe.
Sam Fuqua (42:36):
Natarsha Prince Sanders, thank you so much for speaking with
us and thank you for your work.
Natarsha Sanders (42:40):
Thank you so much for this opportunity and I look
forward to hearing more of your work.
Sam Fuqua (42:51):
Natasha Prince Sanders is a speaker, a teacher, a life
coach, and a community pastor.
She's also a doctoral student atColumbia Theological Seminary.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(43:13):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(43:34):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute nations.
(43:54):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.
org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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