March 1, 2024 • 27 mins
In this episode, we talk with Natalie Thoreson about centering love in the work of social justice and conflict resolution. They're a consultant and facilitator who works with individuals and organizations to bring about positive social change through love, compassion, and community. We spoke with Natalie Thoreson at the 2023 White Privilege Conference.
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Natalie Thoreson (00:08):
When we go into our conversations believing that it's our
job to teach someone or to bring themto our way or to show them the light, we
are being deeply conceited and we are outof spaces of interdependent community.
When we enter with love, we'rereally trying to understand someone
and that's what brings us closer.
Sam Fuqua (00:30):
That's Natalie Thoreson and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with NatalieThoreson about centering love in the work
(00:54):
of social justice and conflict resolution.
They're a consultant and facilitator whoworks with individuals and organizations
to bring about positive social changethrough love, compassion, and community.
We spoke with Natalie Thoreson atthe 2023 White Privilege Conference.
(01:14):
I'm Sam Fuqua co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:19):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:20):
Natalie Thoreson, welcome to Well, That Went Sideways!
Natalie Thoreson (01:22):
Yeah.
Sam Fuqua (01:23):
We're here at the White Privilege Conference.
Alexis and I heard you speak earliertoday, and I just want to start by asking
you what happened in your journey thatmade you center love in revolution?
Natalie Thoreson (01:38):
What a wonderful question.
I mean, some of that is about thelove that I received from my mother.
And that unconditional love and careshe, she was able to provide for me as
a person who's gone through what I wouldname as large amounts of trauma, pain,
et cetera, and she just, she loves.
(01:59):
She is love.
Um, and secondary to that, I grew upin Salt Lake City, Utah from the time
I was three until I left for graduateschool, and during that time being
mixed race, um, being masculine ofcenter, not being affiliated with the
Mormon religion, I didn't have a lotof connection or community or people.
(02:25):
And what I learned was, soundsso weird, but like, I couldn't
be picky about who I connectedwith unless I wanted to be alone.
Like I learned that lessonreally, really early.
And so that shift and that change,it gave me so much more capacity to
be able to perceive beyond people'schallenges, beyond, you know, whatever
(02:48):
thing that might be slightly abrasivebecause ultimately, like, I am an
incredibly extroverted person, andI, I, I didn't want to be isolated.
And that's what was happening, right?
Because of these various identitiesI had, people were told they
couldn't hang out with me.
Or, I'm also neurodivergent, I haveADHD, and sometimes I say and do
(03:10):
things that feel off to people, right?
I was kind of the weird kid, and it mademe alone, and I didn't want to be alone.
And so, just making room forlike every person, every child,
every being, regardless ofwhatever was going on with them.
Sam Fuqua (03:29):
Apply that to organizing for change where, uh, sometimes
anger is what motivates us.
Often, anger is an energy that canmotivate us to work for change,
but I think if I heard your talkcorrectly, at a certain point, anger
doesn't get us where we need to be.
Natalie Thoreson (03:47):
A couple of things.
First thing, you nameorganizing for change, and I
think this is so fundamental.
Trying to think abouthow to really frame this.
I believe, one of my foundational thingsis, if we can actually connect in love,
we find a space of interdependence,right, I get to know all of your
(04:10):
weaknesses, you get to know mine, weget to bolster each other up, and it
changes something where I don't thinkwe need to organize for revolution.
Because when we do work from a placeof love, it happens organically, right?
And, and when I say organize, I'mnot saying that we don't need to
plan, whatever, like, obviouslythose things may need to happen.
(04:32):
But when I hear like, organizefor, I'm thinking like, we
need an, an organization.
We need to, like, get the peopletogether, and make sure we do
all of these larger pieces.
But in reality, if we can centerlove, it's just going to happen.
Like I love you, I get to knowyou, you have a challenge,
you need a support, right?
(04:53):
Maybe it's around accessibility and Ishow up and I'm like, oh, I know you
enough to know that you need a quieterspace because of some neurodivergence
or you need something around physicalaccessibility and I just do it because
we're connected and because I love you.
Sam Fuqua (05:11):
When I hear that, I think, at an individual level, a small group level,
I get that and I think we can get there.
But in terms of societal changes,I still can't quite get there.
So how do I?
Natalie Thoreson (05:26):
Yeah, no, that's a great question, right?
And maybe it's just a hope.
There is this piece of me thathas a deep foundational belief,
so part of it's like one on one.
But when we start to get together incommunity with folks, um, and when I say
(05:46):
community, I don't mean our networks.
Networks are for getting things done.
It's a whole other thing.
I mean community where we areactually interdependent and
supporting and loving each other.
That energy of a number of people,and when I say community, I also
don't think it can be a thousandpeople, but maybe three hundred
people who really deeply care.
(06:10):
I believe, and I could justbe really dreaming of things.
But there's nothing that stops me frombelieving that multiple communities
that are caring about their communitylike that also then couldn't begin to
understand that other communities arepart of that larger network of being.
A piece of it, and so much of where Iam at right now in my thinking, comes
(06:34):
from this understanding of indigeneity,and how many Indigenous folks all around
the world operated like that rightbefore we were colonized into these
giant states and countries and whatever.
And it worked.
And going backward, I don't knowif that's ever going to happen.
But I think a lot of theindigenous wisdom and ways of
(06:55):
being can shift where we're at.
So, like you get enough groups ofcommunity in a state, or let's go
even smaller, in a city, and you'restill within that system of settler
colonization but those groups, ideally,because they're recognizing what's
(07:16):
going on, then maybe they all togetherbegin voting differently, right?
And then you think, bring thatout larger to maybe a whole state.
And it can move across like that, butit involves a deep level of change.
It also involves peopleunderstanding that we are being
treated like a disposable resource.
Alexis Miles (07:36):
As I was listening to you today, I kept thinking about Martin
Luther King, when he said you have tohave a tough mind and a tender heart.
Because when you talk about love,I think you're talking about that
kind of robust love, not the wimpykind of love, "Oh, I love you!"
(07:57):
Can you just talk more about what it isyou mean when you talk about love and
love as an action, not just a feeling?
Natalie Thoreson (08:05):
I love this idea of like wimpy love and what I'm going to pair
wimpy love with is colonized love, right?
Because, as I mentioned in my talk,like when we come into the world,
we are fully equipped to love.
And we love without regard tosomeone's race, their gender,
their sexual orientation, theirdisability, their social class, right?
(08:28):
You come into the world with acomplete and full ability to love.
But the thing is, if you allow someoneto grow up with all that love, they're
going to quickly recognize inequalitiesand things that aren't fair, and they're
going to get together with all the peoplethat they love and they love each other,
right, and we're going to make change.
(08:51):
So, racism and sexism and classismare largely based in this settler
colonialist construct on making itso that we don't love one another.
Or so that love is commodified, right?
Which then it's not love anymore.
Then it is, you know, a sexualizedlove or even a romantic love, but
(09:11):
not just that, that baby love, right?
And anyone who's ever had a chanceto be with an infant or even a small
child, like, you know, love, like ifyou're having a real bad day and you
can be with a two-year-old, they'regoing to make you feel differently
because they're just going to love you.
(09:33):
It doesn't matter why you're having abad day, you could have been a horrible
person that day and had a bad day,and that two-year-old is still just
going to love you, if you let them.
We train it out of people and, and nowhere we are, however many years from your
infancy, trying to get back to that love.
And we buy it through,you know, shopping online.
(09:56):
We buy it through engagingin, in overconsumption.
We buy it through oversexualization.
And you notice I keep saying buy, buy,buy, that's the structure of settler
colonialism because when we all stopbuying, and I'm not going to pretend
for a moment like I'm out of thatsystem, but when we all stop buying
(10:19):
and buying into that system, then howare people going to make money on us?
I live in the Bay Area, and um, thereare a lot of unhoused folks there,
and it really upsets the nation.
Because if you allow people tolive on the land for free, then
what do people have to work for?
It challenges the entire constructionof capitalism, which is the
(10:43):
result of settler colonialism.
Like, they're synonymous in my thinking.
Sam Fuqua (10:49):
Coming back to this idea of loving everyone or loving individuals, it
came up in the talk, like, can you loveDonald Trump or something to that effect?
And I, um, I can't.
I'm not there yet.
But if I could, whatdifference would it make?
Natalie Thoreson (11:06):
Mm.
Mm hmm.
Well, this is the thing which Iwish I had said in my talk because
it's come up a few times now.
I'm trying to, and I'm dreamingabout, and I'm, I'm hoping to move
toward a liberatory society, and thatsociety, we don't have power over.
So, imagine a world where, andDonald Trump is obviously in this
(11:29):
conversation, just a figurehead for this.
And I'm not going to assume thathe's the worst person, right?
And there, there may even belisteners who support Donald Trump.
But whoever it is, that youjust can't get on board with.
So revolution happens,the love revolution.
What are you going to dowith all those people?
(11:51):
You going to genocide them?
Are you going to imprison them?
'Cause now we've created this beautiful,liberated society, but guess what?
It's not liberated.
We've just reproduced thesociety of oppression that
we're trying to get out of.
So, if you can't love all of the people,like we literally cannot all get free.
(12:12):
I can't get free untilevery one of us gets free.
It's not possible.
You're always going tohave to overpower someone.
And I know that, that the thingsI'm naming are sort of idealistic,
and there's always going to bechallenges and things going on.
But I think that foundational frameworkexplains why all of the revolutions
that happen tend to fail because we'retrying to get away from someone and
(12:38):
instead of loving them and connectingwith them, we get away from them and when
we have enough power we suppress them.
Sam Fuqua (12:46):
It's not a perfect analogy but in, in my life, the thing that
I think comes closest on a largescale is, um, is when Nelson Mandela
came into power in South Africa.
And, rather than oppress hisoppressors, he, he had the Truth
(13:07):
and Reconciliation Committee, and Idon't know that love was at the heart
of that, but there was somethingthere akin to what you're saying.
Do you get me?
Natalie Thoreson (13:16):
Oh yeah, and I think love was at the heart of that.
I almost used Nelson Mandela quotesin my stuff today, but I decided
really specifically to use folkswithin a US context, which is
why Mandela wasn't there, becausehe definitely has named love.
Alexis Miles (13:36):
During the talk, you said, I have never met an actual bad person.
Can you say more about that?
Natalie Thoreson (13:44):
What makes a bad person, right?
Maybe that's the question.
I have met people whohave done bad things.
To, to go back and think about the factthat, that when we are born, right, and
I have a very strong tabula rasa belief,we come into the world as, as this open
(14:05):
thing, but also we come into the world,they've done so many studies that show
that when babies are born, they love.
That empathetic response.
You got a baby that starts crying overhere and the other baby will cry, not
for itself, but out of distress forthis other baby, right, that connection.
If all of us are that infant,how can any of us be bad?
(14:27):
I didn't live Donald Trump's life, butif I had, maybe I'd be Donald Trump.
I name this all the time.
I am a strongly extroverted person.
I think I have a bit of charisma.
I happen to be born as afemale identified person.
I happen to be mixed race.
I happen to have thesedifferent oppressions.
(14:48):
If I had been born as a cisgender,heterosexual, white man with all
of my personality traits, I think Imight be kind of an a hole because
of the socialization that comesbehind those identities and then
knowing myself and my personality.
So, what's good and what's bad, it blends.
(15:09):
When I recognize that I could be anything.
Alexis Miles (15:14):
That's a very, I would say, introspective and open-minded perspective.
How would you help people get, approachthat kind of a perspective-taking?
Natalie Thoreson (15:28):
I was having a conversation with some colleagues
who were here earlier and I thinka piece of it is working through
our own guilt and shame, right?
That's what stops usfrom being introspective.
Because that's also a curious piece.
I rely on the wisdom of infants a lotin my, my thinking and my existence, and
(15:52):
they're, they're critically conscious.
They're curious.
They're interestingly introspective.
And so, if we can get back to thoseplaces, what stops us frequently is
feeling ashamed, feeling guilty, feelinglike there's not enough space for it.
And it's socialization.
So, you know, as this person who'sdoing this work around love, I've
(16:14):
been having people come up to me sincethat talk, be like, "I love you."
"I love you."
"So great."
And I can feel my bodyshying away from that.
Like it makes me feel something even tothink about it because we've been taught
that it's not okay to embrace that spaceand to really be showered with love.
(16:37):
How do you get there?
Like, I, I can't tell a personspecifically, like, I don't
have a checklist of tips.
Opening, you know, inwhatever way possible.
And, and really challengingwhen you feel guilt come up,
when you feel shame come up.
Um, even when I was on stageand I was like, ooh, I feel the,
the not-love feelings come up.
(16:58):
Like, you can feel it in your body.
If you can begin to becomeattuned to those things, I
think it makes a difference.
And the other thing I would love toname there is that I'm a person, in my
extroversion and in my neurodivergence,that just now, I'm 47, about to be 48,
in the last while, is starting to reallypay more attention to my body responses.
(17:23):
But boy, it tells me so much, right?
I was able to do it on stage today.
Like I felt, like I was like, love, love,love with this huge open body and chest.
And as I moved away fromlove, I felt my body close up.
So, it's different thingsfor different folks.
There may be some people who need to readthings and take the logical approach.
There are some people thatcan feel it in their body.
(17:46):
Try a few different thingson and see what happens.
Sam Fuqua (17:50):
I'm trying to, to think of, uh, applying that mindset or getting to that
place just when I'm coming into a, youknow, a one-on-one conflict with someone.
And that's something we talk abouton this podcast is try to help people
talk to folks with whom they stronglydisagree and empathy or going to a
place of love with them in the moment.
(18:14):
We retreat into anger or defensivenessor me personally, I would just shut down
and like, okay, not going to go there.
Going to end this conversationas quickly as I can.
Because of the physiological responsein some cases, you know, like
this is just too stressful for meand I don't like what I'm feeling
in my body so I'm going to exit.
What do you do?
Natalie Thoreson (18:33):
Mm hmm.
I mean, I center love.
And even the way that you began thisquestion, right, having that engagement
with someone with whom you stronglydisagree, if we go into it with this
idea that I disagree with you and nowI'm trying to engage with you, how do
we have any room to have an actual,empathetic and understanding conversation?
(18:56):
Because all I'm going to center in thatconversation is not only that I disagree,
but that I'm right and you're wrong.
That's what it means.
When I disagree with you, in this socialconstruct, and if folks are able to do
this without going there, that's great.
But in the construct I know, whenI say I disagree with you, it's
because I know that I'm right.
(19:18):
We gotta take some humility in this.
To humble ourselves, and to consider thatthat person, in their own socialization,
in their own history and stories, right?
It's not about having a conversationwith someone you disagree with.
It's about having a conversationwith somebody that you have a
different understanding than.
(19:40):
And that opens space.
And then you can actuallyhave a conversation.
As a facilitator, there are timeswhen, you know, something may enter
a space where somebody says or doessomething that, you know, fundamentally
may hurt other people in the space.
And what I might do there, like ifI'm one-on-one, I give all the space
and I can really work to understand.
(20:01):
But if I'm facilitating a space, I askpeople to tell me more a lot, right?
And just, exactly thosewords, "Tell me more."
Because it gives folks room toreally express where they're at.
And, I was doing a workshoprecently with somebody who would,
(20:23):
I would say had a completelypolar opposite perspective to me.
And when I showed up, littlest thing,I did a mini lecture on pronouns, and
then had folks doing a pair share,and I asked them to share pronouns,
and this person just folded theirarms and sat back, like they were
not going to have that conversation.
(20:45):
And I left room for it, and I didn'tpush, and I didn't shut down, and as
we moved through the engagement, in myability to just continue putting out
love, right, and moving away from judgmentand understanding that this person had
whatever life experience that took themthere, by the end of the workshop and
(21:08):
actually after the workshop, this personwas engaged in a beautiful dialogue with
me about where that came from for them.
I could have, when this person like foldedtheir arms and sat back, I could have
been like, well, what's your problem?
Or why won't you participate?
Or I need to tell you why this is a thing.
(21:28):
But I just made room.
And I think that we miss that somuch in our social justice spaces.
Like, social justice warrior hastaken on this, this term because
folks are literally trying to battlesocial justice into other folks.
And that's not how we get there.
We, at least for me, let me, letme speak for myself, I think that
(21:52):
we have to love folks enough.
And understand folks enough, sothe empathy piece that was brought
up earlier, in order to get there.
Sam Fuqua (22:03):
Any other stories you would share from your life that can make some
of these ideas real for the listeners?
Natalie Thoreson (22:10):
I have this great story.
Um, I was on my way to thisvery conference when it
was happening in Philly.
It was the second time I was attending.
So in 2015, I was heading toWhite Privilege Conference
and get on an airplane.
We start flying across the country,um, as a person who grew up working
class and poor, I'm excited tobe able to afford the flight.
(22:33):
I was able to order a beverageon the flight and some snacks.
As my stuff got delivered, the womannext to me, who happened to be a
white woman, starts chatting me up.
She says, "Oh, where are you headed?"
Right?
We're going to Philly, but she's justtrying to have larger conversation.
And I said, "Oh, well, I'm headed tothis amazing conference called the White
Privilege Conference, where we work todeconstruct racism and white supremacy.
(22:55):
I'm a facilitator there.
And I do a lot of different workshopsand stuff about facilitating this work."
And she responded to me bysaying, "You know, I think the
problem with black people is..."
right, and I see both of youreyebrow, all four of your
eyebrows just rose in that moment.
It creates a feeling.
(23:15):
She's not even done with her sentence.
But it creates this feeling wherewe're like what is going to follow?
Why aren't you understanding me?
I was filled with somany different feelings.
I'm like having a nice time.
I'm like, I'm going to the conference.
And uh, the rest of her statement, shesaid, "I think the problem with white,"
(23:35):
excuse me, "I think the problem withblack folks is that they don't care
about education for their children."
So, it didn't get better.
It only got worse.
And I happened to be on my way toWPC to facilitate a workshop on
engaging difficult conversations, andI had just laid out this multi-part
process, right, and how to do that.
(23:57):
And the very first thing waschecking in on my own feelings,
doing what I needed to do to calmmy responses, and the next piece was
to ask this woman to tell me more.
And she did.
And honestly, she wasmuch, much more concerned.
She never said black folks again.
She talked about educationproviding access to resources.
(24:18):
And then I was able to talk abouthow I grew up in this working
class family, sometimes poor.
If I didn't have my degree, Iwouldn't be on the airplane.
I wouldn't be on my way to the conference.
And we talked back and forth.
She's the first person I ever met thatwas planning on voting for Donald Trump.
And we had such a fascinatingconversation about why she was making
(24:41):
that decision, about what her politicswere, and I'm going to tell you,
she said something that was racist.
And I don't know that shewould own that necessarily.
And that's not, I'm not trying to belike, you must say that you did racism.
But through our conversation, I trulybelieve not only that she understood
the perspective that, that I was sharingor the impact, because I was like, when
(25:05):
you said that, it, it made me feel hurtbecause the people I know try extra hard
because they know about that access.
But it was a two way thing because Ialso learned so much and developed so
much more empathy and understandingaround why somebody might vote for
a person that I didn't agree with.
(25:26):
When we go into our conversationsbelieving that it's our job to teach
someone, or to bring them to our way,or to show them the light, we are being
deeply conceited, and we are out ofspaces of interdependent community.
When we enter with love, we'rereally trying to understand someone,
and that's what brings us closer.
Sam Fuqua (25:48):
Well, thank you for spending time with us, and sharing
that with our listeners, too.
We appreciate you.
Natalie Thoreson (25:53):
Thank you all for having me.
Sam Fuqua (25:55):
Natalie Thoreson is a consultant, facilitator,
and workshop leader.
We spoke with them at the 2023 WhitePrivilege Conference in Mesa, Arizona.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(26:17):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(26:38):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(26:58):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.
(27:20):
org.
When we go into our conversations believing that it's our
job to teach someone or to bring themto our way or to show them the light, we
are being deeply conceited and we are outof spaces of interdependent community.
When we enter with love, we'rereally trying to understand someone
and that's what brings us closer.
Sam Fuqua (00:30):
That's Natalie Thoreson and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with NatalieThoreson about centering love in the work
(00:54):
of social justice and conflict resolution.
They're a consultant and facilitator whoworks with individuals and organizations
to bring about positive social changethrough love, compassion, and community.
We spoke with Natalie Thoreson atthe 2023 White Privilege Conference.
(01:14):
I'm Sam Fuqua co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:19):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:20):
Natalie Thoreson, welcome to Well, That Went Sideways!
Natalie Thoreson (01:22):
Yeah.
Sam Fuqua (01:23):
We're here at the White Privilege Conference.
Alexis and I heard you speak earliertoday, and I just want to start by asking
you what happened in your journey thatmade you center love in revolution?
Natalie Thoreson (01:38):
What a wonderful question.
I mean, some of that is about thelove that I received from my mother.
And that unconditional love and careshe, she was able to provide for me as
a person who's gone through what I wouldname as large amounts of trauma, pain,
et cetera, and she just, she loves.
(01:59):
She is love.
Um, and secondary to that, I grew upin Salt Lake City, Utah from the time
I was three until I left for graduateschool, and during that time being
mixed race, um, being masculine ofcenter, not being affiliated with the
Mormon religion, I didn't have a lotof connection or community or people.
(02:25):
And what I learned was, soundsso weird, but like, I couldn't
be picky about who I connectedwith unless I wanted to be alone.
Like I learned that lessonreally, really early.
And so that shift and that change,it gave me so much more capacity to
be able to perceive beyond people'schallenges, beyond, you know, whatever
(02:48):
thing that might be slightly abrasivebecause ultimately, like, I am an
incredibly extroverted person, andI, I, I didn't want to be isolated.
And that's what was happening, right?
Because of these various identitiesI had, people were told they
couldn't hang out with me.
Or, I'm also neurodivergent, I haveADHD, and sometimes I say and do
(03:10):
things that feel off to people, right?
I was kind of the weird kid, and it mademe alone, and I didn't want to be alone.
And so, just making room forlike every person, every child,
every being, regardless ofwhatever was going on with them.
Sam Fuqua (03:29):
Apply that to organizing for change where, uh, sometimes
anger is what motivates us.
Often, anger is an energy that canmotivate us to work for change,
but I think if I heard your talkcorrectly, at a certain point, anger
doesn't get us where we need to be.
Natalie Thoreson (03:47):
A couple of things.
First thing, you nameorganizing for change, and I
think this is so fundamental.
Trying to think abouthow to really frame this.
I believe, one of my foundational thingsis, if we can actually connect in love,
we find a space of interdependence,right, I get to know all of your
(04:10):
weaknesses, you get to know mine, weget to bolster each other up, and it
changes something where I don't thinkwe need to organize for revolution.
Because when we do work from a placeof love, it happens organically, right?
And, and when I say organize, I'mnot saying that we don't need to
plan, whatever, like, obviouslythose things may need to happen.
(04:32):
But when I hear like, organizefor, I'm thinking like, we
need an, an organization.
We need to, like, get the peopletogether, and make sure we do
all of these larger pieces.
But in reality, if we can centerlove, it's just going to happen.
Like I love you, I get to knowyou, you have a challenge,
you need a support, right?
(04:53):
Maybe it's around accessibility and Ishow up and I'm like, oh, I know you
enough to know that you need a quieterspace because of some neurodivergence
or you need something around physicalaccessibility and I just do it because
we're connected and because I love you.
Sam Fuqua (05:11):
When I hear that, I think, at an individual level, a small group level,
I get that and I think we can get there.
But in terms of societal changes,I still can't quite get there.
So how do I?
Natalie Thoreson (05:26):
Yeah, no, that's a great question, right?
And maybe it's just a hope.
There is this piece of me thathas a deep foundational belief,
so part of it's like one on one.
But when we start to get together incommunity with folks, um, and when I say
(05:46):
community, I don't mean our networks.
Networks are for getting things done.
It's a whole other thing.
I mean community where we areactually interdependent and
supporting and loving each other.
That energy of a number of people,and when I say community, I also
don't think it can be a thousandpeople, but maybe three hundred
people who really deeply care.
(06:10):
I believe, and I could justbe really dreaming of things.
But there's nothing that stops me frombelieving that multiple communities
that are caring about their communitylike that also then couldn't begin to
understand that other communities arepart of that larger network of being.
A piece of it, and so much of where Iam at right now in my thinking, comes
(06:34):
from this understanding of indigeneity,and how many Indigenous folks all around
the world operated like that rightbefore we were colonized into these
giant states and countries and whatever.
And it worked.
And going backward, I don't knowif that's ever going to happen.
But I think a lot of theindigenous wisdom and ways of
(06:55):
being can shift where we're at.
So, like you get enough groups ofcommunity in a state, or let's go
even smaller, in a city, and you'restill within that system of settler
colonization but those groups, ideally,because they're recognizing what's
(07:16):
going on, then maybe they all togetherbegin voting differently, right?
And then you think, bring thatout larger to maybe a whole state.
And it can move across like that, butit involves a deep level of change.
It also involves peopleunderstanding that we are being
treated like a disposable resource.
Alexis Miles (07:36):
As I was listening to you today, I kept thinking about Martin
Luther King, when he said you have tohave a tough mind and a tender heart.
Because when you talk about love,I think you're talking about that
kind of robust love, not the wimpykind of love, "Oh, I love you!"
(07:57):
Can you just talk more about what it isyou mean when you talk about love and
love as an action, not just a feeling?
Natalie Thoreson (08:05):
I love this idea of like wimpy love and what I'm going to pair
wimpy love with is colonized love, right?
Because, as I mentioned in my talk,like when we come into the world,
we are fully equipped to love.
And we love without regard tosomeone's race, their gender,
their sexual orientation, theirdisability, their social class, right?
(08:28):
You come into the world with acomplete and full ability to love.
But the thing is, if you allow someoneto grow up with all that love, they're
going to quickly recognize inequalitiesand things that aren't fair, and they're
going to get together with all the peoplethat they love and they love each other,
right, and we're going to make change.
(08:51):
So, racism and sexism and classismare largely based in this settler
colonialist construct on making itso that we don't love one another.
Or so that love is commodified, right?
Which then it's not love anymore.
Then it is, you know, a sexualizedlove or even a romantic love, but
(09:11):
not just that, that baby love, right?
And anyone who's ever had a chanceto be with an infant or even a small
child, like, you know, love, like ifyou're having a real bad day and you
can be with a two-year-old, they'regoing to make you feel differently
because they're just going to love you.
(09:33):
It doesn't matter why you're having abad day, you could have been a horrible
person that day and had a bad day,and that two-year-old is still just
going to love you, if you let them.
We train it out of people and, and nowhere we are, however many years from your
infancy, trying to get back to that love.
And we buy it through,you know, shopping online.
(09:56):
We buy it through engagingin, in overconsumption.
We buy it through oversexualization.
And you notice I keep saying buy, buy,buy, that's the structure of settler
colonialism because when we all stopbuying, and I'm not going to pretend
for a moment like I'm out of thatsystem, but when we all stop buying
(10:19):
and buying into that system, then howare people going to make money on us?
I live in the Bay Area, and um, thereare a lot of unhoused folks there,
and it really upsets the nation.
Because if you allow people tolive on the land for free, then
what do people have to work for?
It challenges the entire constructionof capitalism, which is the
(10:43):
result of settler colonialism.
Like, they're synonymous in my thinking.
Sam Fuqua (10:49):
Coming back to this idea of loving everyone or loving individuals, it
came up in the talk, like, can you loveDonald Trump or something to that effect?
And I, um, I can't.
I'm not there yet.
But if I could, whatdifference would it make?
Natalie Thoreson (11:06):
Mm.
Mm hmm.
Well, this is the thing which Iwish I had said in my talk because
it's come up a few times now.
I'm trying to, and I'm dreamingabout, and I'm, I'm hoping to move
toward a liberatory society, and thatsociety, we don't have power over.
So, imagine a world where, andDonald Trump is obviously in this
(11:29):
conversation, just a figurehead for this.
And I'm not going to assume thathe's the worst person, right?
And there, there may even belisteners who support Donald Trump.
But whoever it is, that youjust can't get on board with.
So revolution happens,the love revolution.
What are you going to dowith all those people?
(11:51):
You going to genocide them?
Are you going to imprison them?
'Cause now we've created this beautiful,liberated society, but guess what?
It's not liberated.
We've just reproduced thesociety of oppression that
we're trying to get out of.
So, if you can't love all of the people,like we literally cannot all get free.
(12:12):
I can't get free untilevery one of us gets free.
It's not possible.
You're always going tohave to overpower someone.
And I know that, that the thingsI'm naming are sort of idealistic,
and there's always going to bechallenges and things going on.
But I think that foundational frameworkexplains why all of the revolutions
that happen tend to fail because we'retrying to get away from someone and
(12:38):
instead of loving them and connectingwith them, we get away from them and when
we have enough power we suppress them.
Sam Fuqua (12:46):
It's not a perfect analogy but in, in my life, the thing that
I think comes closest on a largescale is, um, is when Nelson Mandela
came into power in South Africa.
And, rather than oppress hisoppressors, he, he had the Truth
(13:07):
and Reconciliation Committee, and Idon't know that love was at the heart
of that, but there was somethingthere akin to what you're saying.
Do you get me?
Natalie Thoreson (13:16):
Oh yeah, and I think love was at the heart of that.
I almost used Nelson Mandela quotesin my stuff today, but I decided
really specifically to use folkswithin a US context, which is
why Mandela wasn't there, becausehe definitely has named love.
Alexis Miles (13:36):
During the talk, you said, I have never met an actual bad person.
Can you say more about that?
Natalie Thoreson (13:44):
What makes a bad person, right?
Maybe that's the question.
I have met people whohave done bad things.
To, to go back and think about the factthat, that when we are born, right, and
I have a very strong tabula rasa belief,we come into the world as, as this open
(14:05):
thing, but also we come into the world,they've done so many studies that show
that when babies are born, they love.
That empathetic response.
You got a baby that starts crying overhere and the other baby will cry, not
for itself, but out of distress forthis other baby, right, that connection.
If all of us are that infant,how can any of us be bad?
(14:27):
I didn't live Donald Trump's life, butif I had, maybe I'd be Donald Trump.
I name this all the time.
I am a strongly extroverted person.
I think I have a bit of charisma.
I happen to be born as afemale identified person.
I happen to be mixed race.
I happen to have thesedifferent oppressions.
(14:48):
If I had been born as a cisgender,heterosexual, white man with all
of my personality traits, I think Imight be kind of an a hole because
of the socialization that comesbehind those identities and then
knowing myself and my personality.
So, what's good and what's bad, it blends.
(15:09):
When I recognize that I could be anything.
Alexis Miles (15:14):
That's a very, I would say, introspective and open-minded perspective.
How would you help people get, approachthat kind of a perspective-taking?
Natalie Thoreson (15:28):
I was having a conversation with some colleagues
who were here earlier and I thinka piece of it is working through
our own guilt and shame, right?
That's what stops usfrom being introspective.
Because that's also a curious piece.
I rely on the wisdom of infants a lotin my, my thinking and my existence, and
(15:52):
they're, they're critically conscious.
They're curious.
They're interestingly introspective.
And so, if we can get back to thoseplaces, what stops us frequently is
feeling ashamed, feeling guilty, feelinglike there's not enough space for it.
And it's socialization.
So, you know, as this person who'sdoing this work around love, I've
(16:14):
been having people come up to me sincethat talk, be like, "I love you."
"I love you."
"So great."
And I can feel my bodyshying away from that.
Like it makes me feel something even tothink about it because we've been taught
that it's not okay to embrace that spaceand to really be showered with love.
(16:37):
How do you get there?
Like, I, I can't tell a personspecifically, like, I don't
have a checklist of tips.
Opening, you know, inwhatever way possible.
And, and really challengingwhen you feel guilt come up,
when you feel shame come up.
Um, even when I was on stageand I was like, ooh, I feel the,
the not-love feelings come up.
(16:58):
Like, you can feel it in your body.
If you can begin to becomeattuned to those things, I
think it makes a difference.
And the other thing I would love toname there is that I'm a person, in my
extroversion and in my neurodivergence,that just now, I'm 47, about to be 48,
in the last while, is starting to reallypay more attention to my body responses.
(17:23):
But boy, it tells me so much, right?
I was able to do it on stage today.
Like I felt, like I was like, love, love,love with this huge open body and chest.
And as I moved away fromlove, I felt my body close up.
So, it's different thingsfor different folks.
There may be some people who need to readthings and take the logical approach.
There are some people thatcan feel it in their body.
(17:46):
Try a few different thingson and see what happens.
Sam Fuqua (17:50):
I'm trying to, to think of, uh, applying that mindset or getting to that
place just when I'm coming into a, youknow, a one-on-one conflict with someone.
And that's something we talk abouton this podcast is try to help people
talk to folks with whom they stronglydisagree and empathy or going to a
place of love with them in the moment.
(18:14):
We retreat into anger or defensivenessor me personally, I would just shut down
and like, okay, not going to go there.
Going to end this conversationas quickly as I can.
Because of the physiological responsein some cases, you know, like
this is just too stressful for meand I don't like what I'm feeling
in my body so I'm going to exit.
What do you do?
Natalie Thoreson (18:33):
Mm hmm.
I mean, I center love.
And even the way that you began thisquestion, right, having that engagement
with someone with whom you stronglydisagree, if we go into it with this
idea that I disagree with you and nowI'm trying to engage with you, how do
we have any room to have an actual,empathetic and understanding conversation?
(18:56):
Because all I'm going to center in thatconversation is not only that I disagree,
but that I'm right and you're wrong.
That's what it means.
When I disagree with you, in this socialconstruct, and if folks are able to do
this without going there, that's great.
But in the construct I know, whenI say I disagree with you, it's
because I know that I'm right.
(19:18):
We gotta take some humility in this.
To humble ourselves, and to consider thatthat person, in their own socialization,
in their own history and stories, right?
It's not about having a conversationwith someone you disagree with.
It's about having a conversationwith somebody that you have a
different understanding than.
(19:40):
And that opens space.
And then you can actuallyhave a conversation.
As a facilitator, there are timeswhen, you know, something may enter
a space where somebody says or doessomething that, you know, fundamentally
may hurt other people in the space.
And what I might do there, like ifI'm one-on-one, I give all the space
and I can really work to understand.
(20:01):
But if I'm facilitating a space, I askpeople to tell me more a lot, right?
And just, exactly thosewords, "Tell me more."
Because it gives folks room toreally express where they're at.
And, I was doing a workshoprecently with somebody who would,
(20:23):
I would say had a completelypolar opposite perspective to me.
And when I showed up, littlest thing,I did a mini lecture on pronouns, and
then had folks doing a pair share,and I asked them to share pronouns,
and this person just folded theirarms and sat back, like they were
not going to have that conversation.
(20:45):
And I left room for it, and I didn'tpush, and I didn't shut down, and as
we moved through the engagement, in myability to just continue putting out
love, right, and moving away from judgmentand understanding that this person had
whatever life experience that took themthere, by the end of the workshop and
(21:08):
actually after the workshop, this personwas engaged in a beautiful dialogue with
me about where that came from for them.
I could have, when this person like foldedtheir arms and sat back, I could have
been like, well, what's your problem?
Or why won't you participate?
Or I need to tell you why this is a thing.
(21:28):
But I just made room.
And I think that we miss that somuch in our social justice spaces.
Like, social justice warrior hastaken on this, this term because
folks are literally trying to battlesocial justice into other folks.
And that's not how we get there.
We, at least for me, let me, letme speak for myself, I think that
(21:52):
we have to love folks enough.
And understand folks enough, sothe empathy piece that was brought
up earlier, in order to get there.
Sam Fuqua (22:03):
Any other stories you would share from your life that can make some
of these ideas real for the listeners?
Natalie Thoreson (22:10):
I have this great story.
Um, I was on my way to thisvery conference when it
was happening in Philly.
It was the second time I was attending.
So in 2015, I was heading toWhite Privilege Conference
and get on an airplane.
We start flying across the country,um, as a person who grew up working
class and poor, I'm excited tobe able to afford the flight.
(22:33):
I was able to order a beverageon the flight and some snacks.
As my stuff got delivered, the womannext to me, who happened to be a
white woman, starts chatting me up.
She says, "Oh, where are you headed?"
Right?
We're going to Philly, but she's justtrying to have larger conversation.
And I said, "Oh, well, I'm headed tothis amazing conference called the White
Privilege Conference, where we work todeconstruct racism and white supremacy.
(22:55):
I'm a facilitator there.
And I do a lot of different workshopsand stuff about facilitating this work."
And she responded to me bysaying, "You know, I think the
problem with black people is..."
right, and I see both of youreyebrow, all four of your
eyebrows just rose in that moment.
It creates a feeling.
(23:15):
She's not even done with her sentence.
But it creates this feeling wherewe're like what is going to follow?
Why aren't you understanding me?
I was filled with somany different feelings.
I'm like having a nice time.
I'm like, I'm going to the conference.
And uh, the rest of her statement, shesaid, "I think the problem with white,"
(23:35):
excuse me, "I think the problem withblack folks is that they don't care
about education for their children."
So, it didn't get better.
It only got worse.
And I happened to be on my way toWPC to facilitate a workshop on
engaging difficult conversations, andI had just laid out this multi-part
process, right, and how to do that.
(23:57):
And the very first thing waschecking in on my own feelings,
doing what I needed to do to calmmy responses, and the next piece was
to ask this woman to tell me more.
And she did.
And honestly, she wasmuch, much more concerned.
She never said black folks again.
She talked about educationproviding access to resources.
(24:18):
And then I was able to talk abouthow I grew up in this working
class family, sometimes poor.
If I didn't have my degree, Iwouldn't be on the airplane.
I wouldn't be on my way to the conference.
And we talked back and forth.
She's the first person I ever met thatwas planning on voting for Donald Trump.
And we had such a fascinatingconversation about why she was making
(24:41):
that decision, about what her politicswere, and I'm going to tell you,
she said something that was racist.
And I don't know that shewould own that necessarily.
And that's not, I'm not trying to belike, you must say that you did racism.
But through our conversation, I trulybelieve not only that she understood
the perspective that, that I was sharingor the impact, because I was like, when
(25:05):
you said that, it, it made me feel hurtbecause the people I know try extra hard
because they know about that access.
But it was a two way thing because Ialso learned so much and developed so
much more empathy and understandingaround why somebody might vote for
a person that I didn't agree with.
(25:26):
When we go into our conversationsbelieving that it's our job to teach
someone, or to bring them to our way,or to show them the light, we are being
deeply conceited, and we are out ofspaces of interdependent community.
When we enter with love, we'rereally trying to understand someone,
and that's what brings us closer.
Sam Fuqua (25:48):
Well, thank you for spending time with us, and sharing
that with our listeners, too.
We appreciate you.
Natalie Thoreson (25:53):
Thank you all for having me.
Sam Fuqua (25:55):
Natalie Thoreson is a consultant, facilitator,
and workshop leader.
We spoke with them at the 2023 WhitePrivilege Conference in Mesa, Arizona.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(26:17):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(26:38):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(26:58):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.
(27:20):
org.
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