August 1, 2023 • 34 mins
On this episode, we talk with Jes Rau about pronouns, why they matter, and how we can respond to some of the common conflicts and apprehensions around using non-binary pronouns. Jes Rau is the Manager of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Training at Well Power, a large mental health service provider in Denver. They are also a member of the production team here at Well, That Went Sideways!
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Jes Rau (00:08):
For me, it's about being seen, and for a lot of us, I think it's
about being seen and valued for who weare and how we show up in the world.
And so when we refuse to use a person'spronouns, that they have said that
they would like to use, it can feelreally invalidating and really painful.
(00:28):
Like you, you are not willing to see me.
You're not, I am not worthy of your,uh, respect and love and attention.
Sam Fuqua (00:38):
That's Jes Rau, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
On this episode, we talk with JesRau about pronouns, why they matter,
(01:03):
and how we can respond to some of thecommon conflicts and apprehensions
around using non-binary pronouns.
Jes Rau is the Manager of Diversity,Equity, and Inclusion Training
at Well Power, a large mentalhealth service provider in Denver.
They are also a member of the productionteam here at Well, That Went Sideways!
(01:27):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the programjoined as always by Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:33):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:34):
And we're really excited to have as our guest for this
edition of Well, That Went Sideways!
another member of theSideways team, Jes Rau.
Hi Jes.
Jes Rau (01:43):
Hey Sam.
Hi Alexis.
Sam Fuqua (01:45):
Really great to, uh, to have you on the program.
To start with, Jes, can you tell ourlisteners your thought process as
to why you have chosen to use thepronouns you use, and what that was
like for you coming to that decision?
Jes Rau (02:02):
Sure.
So, um, it was a journey.
Pronouns are often, uh, a journey forfolks to, um, explore and see what
fits and what feels right to them.
Um, and for me, growing up throughoutthe 80s and 90s and into the
2000s, there weren't many choices.
There, there were a fewchoices for gendered pronouns.
(02:24):
And for non-gendered pronouns, therereally just weren't many, especially
not ones that felt like they fit.
Um, some that kind of became popularin the 70s but weren't widely used
and, um, didn't feel right for me.
And then, I heard through, um, attendingsome conferences and participating
in some workshops that there weresome folks who were identifying, um,
(02:46):
using they/them, and that felt good.
That felt really like it fit.
And, and I guess I should say too,um, it felt like it fit compared
to what the other options are.
So there may be something that weinvent later on that will feel better,
but compared to what the other optionswere, he/him, she/her, um, some of the
(03:08):
other pronouns, they then just feltthe best when I kind of tried it on.
Sam Fuqua (03:15):
And remind us, what is a pronoun?
Jes Rau (03:17):
Yeah.
So pronouns are, are actually just,they're a part of speech that we use.
Um, they're the short littlewords, um, that we use, um,
throughout all of our language.
But in this case, we're talkingabout personal pronouns.
So a pronoun that we're using to,a word we're using to refer to a
person, um, when they are not thereor when we're not using their name.
(03:40):
So when you think about, likesaying, "He went to the store."
"They went to the store."
"She went to the store."
Um, those are pronouns.
And so, uh, we use 'em all the time.
Everybody has pronouns.
"I", the, the word "I" is a pronoun.
Um, you're referring to yourselfwithout using your name.
Um, and so, "We" as a pronoun.
(04:01):
The collective of all ofus without using our names.
And so just keeping inmind, um, we all use them.
We all have them.
It's just a part of speech.
And we actually use, uh,non-gendered or non-binary.
We use "they/them" as asingular pronoun all the time.
So imagine you're, you're at a restaurant,and it's raining outside and you
(04:22):
look over at the table next to you,the people have left and you realize
that someone has left their umbrella.
That's what you would say,"They left their umbrella."
That's, it's a common thing for usto use, uh, they/them, when we don't
know the gender of a person, um, touse they/them as a singular pronoun.
(04:43):
And so, um, it's something weactually always do and we have the
skills to do and we've always done.
Uh, it just feels heightened rightnow because folks are, are feeling
nervous or threatened by the idea ofusing them more often or more commonly.
But yeah, pronouns are just,just the words we use when
we're not using a person's name.
Sam Fuqua (05:03):
And maybe we should back up and talk a little bit about
gender and what that even means.
How do you define gender, Jes?
Jes Rau (05:13):
Yeah.
So when I think about gender andwhen I train folks on gender, um, I
think about it as a social construct.
Basically, something that we've createdas a society, um, that categorizes people.
And that's what we do, right?
Our brains need to categorizethings so that we can have
efficient thought processes.
And so throughout manydifferent iterations of, um,
(05:37):
exploring what does gender mean?
What does sex mean?
Um, how do they, how arethey related to one another?
Um, what a lot of us think and whatfeels right to me is that gender
and sex are two separate things.
Gender is the way you feel internallyand want to express yourself outwardly.
Um, and sex is the biological.
And so those two thingsdon't have to align.
(05:59):
They don't have to be,uh, connected for folks.
So when I think about gender, yeah,I think about it as, uh, a bigger
social construct that we havecreated to help categorize people.
Sam Fuqua (06:11):
Well, and the, the whole pronoun question, or in
some cases, pronoun debate, hasreally, I think, made a lot of us
think more deeply about gender.
Jes Rau (06:21):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think it's, it's become very, verydivisive and, um, very challenging for
folks because we're asking, when we'reasking folks to consider gender in a
different way than maybe they had before,and then also to do the action of using
pronouns that they're not used to or thatmay have been different than what they
(06:42):
expected, then people are, um, defensive.
It makes people really nervous, makespeople really, uh, feel like, hey,
you're changing something that feelscomfortable to me and I don't like that.
And so, so yeah.
It's, it's very broad conversation rightnow being had everywhere from workplaces
to governments to schools to faith-basedinstitutions to families, but also a
(07:08):
really challenging conversation to have.
Alexis Miles (07:11):
Jes, one of the things I've noticed is that some people have not
thought enough about the language to evenunderstand that pronouns are gendered.
So, I, I'd just like toread a, a little something.
I believe this is from the Anti-DefamationLeague and just get your response to it.
It says, "From an early age, many weretaught that pronouns should follow
(07:33):
specific rules along the gender binary.
She/her/hers for girls and women,and he/him/his for boys and men.
However, as our society has progressedin understanding gender identity,
our language must also be updated.
It should be accurate and conveyunderstanding and respect for all people,
(07:55):
especially those who are transgender,gender nonconforming, and non-binary."
Would, do you agree with that analysis?
Jes Rau (08:03):
Oh yeah, that's, that's beautiful and perfect and said, said really well.
Um, I think we, like I was just sayinga little bit, we get stuck in what's
comfortable, um, and, and, the realityis, is that things are always changing.
Language is always changing.
Like think back, um, to thelanguage that you've introduced
into your vocabulary, right?
(08:25):
There was not email.
Email was not a word any of us knew,and then all of a sudden it was.
It is a thing that we all know aboutand we all use, we all understand.
And so language evolves.
Think about slang terms, like thingslike saying cool or rad or awesome.
Like those things change over time.
Our language changes and,and evolves over time.
(08:45):
And so this is another example of that.
And then also our understanding hasgotten so much deeper, um, and so much
richer in terms of people's experiences.
And I think because of social media,more people were able to share
their stories and find each other.
And so therefore that amplified someof the, uh, experiences that folks
(09:06):
were having outside of what they'retalking about, that gender binary.
Alexis Miles (09:11):
The thing about the language evolving reminds me of some
of the language that we use and maybeeven have begun to take for granted
now, like cisgendered, transgendered,non-binary, intersex, gender fluid.
Could you take a moment and just give a,a brief explanation for some of the more
common terms used to describe the livedexperience of some people with gender?
Jes Rau (09:36):
Sure.
Yeah, happy to.
Um, and I think there's, there's a bigmisunderstanding of what cisgender means.
Um, and there are folks who aretaking pretty strong offense to
being referred to as cisgender.
So, um, cis and trans are just two terms.
They're Latin terms.
Cis means basicallylike in alignment with.
(09:57):
I'm aligned.
And trans means I'm not aligned.
And so when we talk about people whoare born, um, and they're assigned
male or a female at birth, um, let'ssay someone's assigned male at birth
and then they grow up and they'relike, yes, I feel like I am, uh, male.
That feels like that describes me.
I'm a man.
(10:18):
And my biology is the same.
Then your cisgender.
Your, your gender identity aligns withyour sex that was assigned at birth.
For trans folks, that's not the case.
We are born and then as we growand learn and develop, our gender
identity may not be aligned with thesex that we were assigned at birth.
(10:40):
And so that's all it means isaligned and, and, uh, not aligned
essentially, in the simplest, uh, terms.
So those ones, that's howI would describe those.
A couple of other non-binaryis a, um, a type of gender.
So you have male, female.
Man or woman, right?
And then non-binary are folkswho don't feel like they fit
(11:03):
on that, uh, two-part spectrum.
So we have, sometimes we think aboutsex and gender as there's men on
one side, women on the other side.
Um, that mean, eitheryou are one or the other.
It's like an off and on switch, right?
You're either on or off, one or the other.
Um, and that's what binary is.
You have two choices and that's it.
With folks who are non-binary, wedon't feel like we fit in those
(11:27):
two choices neatly or nicely.
And so, again, because there'snot a good word for describing who
we are yet, like we haven't, um,created those terms together yet.
We kind of describedbased on who we're not.
We are not binary.
We don't fit in that box.
Um, and so that's what non-binary is.
(11:49):
Gender nonconforming or gender fluid,um, those types of terms, that just means
people within the various identities have,have different experiences of gender.
So gender fluid, um, are folks whokind of go in and out of different
gender feelings and experiences.
So, um, they may feel at some pointin time, a little bit more like male
(12:12):
or masculine or man fits, and thenthey might shift more into non-binary
and that feel like that fits.
So it kind of, um, depends onthe day, the situation, the time.
Um, it's much more fluid, it flows, right?
And so, um, there are a lot of differentterms, many, many, many that folks
are experimenting with, trying on, um,exploring to find what fits best for them.
Sam Fuqua (12:37):
Well, let's take a couple of, uh, examples of where we can
come into conflict with pronouns.
And as we mentioned in our introduction,you are the lead for diversity,
equity, and inclusion work at alarge mental health nonprofit.
Let me start with maybe the, the lessconfrontational situation, which is
(12:58):
whether it's a friend, a family memberor work colleague were supportive of
the pronoun conversation and usingthe correct pronouns with, uh, someone
we work with or someone we care aboutin our friendships or family, but
we're nervous about making a mistake.
And so I'll just gowith my own self, right?
(13:19):
Jes, so when we met 2020 and you toldme, uh, prefer they/them, but she/her is
okay, part of me was like, okay, shoo,uh, I, because I don't wanna screw up.
And part of that is a motivationto not hurt the feelings
of my friend or coworker.
But also kind of lazy on mypart as I thought about it.
(13:40):
Like, come on Sam, you could like payattention to this and get this right.
So when you have someone who's say,like me, who's supportive and trying but
does make a mistake and use the wrongpronoun, how should we approach that?
Jes Rau (13:54):
It's a great example.
Definitely a great example.
And I'm gonna note one thing before we,before I dive into, um, what, what folks
can do, is that pretty often, um, it'spretty common that folks will say, um,
I'm okay with two different pronouns.
One that's more binary, and thenthey/them or another, non-binary
and non-gendered pronoun.
(14:15):
And sometimes we do that becausewe're truly okay with it.
We really are okay.
We, either one is fine with us.
Um, sometimes we do that because wedon't want to be a burden on others.
So we don't want to force othersor make others uncomfortable.
Um, we don't want to havethe conversations constantly
about gender or the reminders.
And so it lightens the mentalload for us to say, oh, it's
(14:38):
okay to use she/her or they/them.
Um, another reason that wemight say that is because, um,
we're still trying things on.
We're seeing does they/them fit?
Does she/her fit?
Does he/him fit?
And so people evolve over time andsometimes can become more comfortable
with one pronoun versus the, the, whatwe call mixed pronouns that may, they
(15:01):
may have been using at a different time.
And I think that's definitelybeen a journey for me.
The way it fits for me is that withfolks who I'm very close to and very
familiar with, I don't have a strongreaction when folks use mixed pronouns.
I don't really feel, um,very strongly about it.
And so it's okay with me for people likeSam, you and I, Alexis, um, our Sideways
(15:24):
pod team, my family, my close friends.
Externally, in a work setting orwith people I'm unfamiliar with,
with people I don't know very well,I would strongly prefer not to use,
um, she/her pronouns, and I only usethey/them for a couple of reasons.
One is I feel like you all see me,my, the Sideways pod team, Sam,
(15:45):
Alexis, you all, you see me and youknow me, um, and so I don't have to
question what's going on for folks.
With external people who I'm not asfamiliar with, um, I don't know if
they're seeing me fully as who I am.
And so I think for me, and that'sjust my experience, everybody
has very different experiences.
(16:07):
And another thing that I used to sayis, uh, when I started to kind of push a
little bit, I would say I use she/her foryour comfort and they/them for my comfort.
So you can pick.
Do you need to prioritize your comfort?
And, and no judgment ifthat's what you need to do.
Um, or would you like to prioritize mine?
So if in those settings, sometimespeople would make choices based
(16:32):
on where they were and howthey felt in terms of pronouns.
Um, that is definitely not commonexperience of, of a lot of folks.
A lot of folks really feelstrongly, um, that when they
share, uh, specific pronouns thatyou need to use those pronouns.
If you make a mistake, because mistakeswill happen, in a situation where folks
(16:53):
are, are close to you or friends, orif you just know it's not malicious in
intent, um, the best thing for you all todo if, if you mix up on pronouns is just
to, um, correct yourself and move on.
So say you're talking about me, you'retalking to me, and you say, uh, she,
and you want to use the they/thempronouns, you say, they, she, I
(17:16):
mean they, and then you move on.
Um, you don't have tomake a big production.
Usually people don't want, uh,that, that type of attention.
And then later on you could reach outmaybe by a text message or, uh, pull
the person aside and say, oh, I'm,I'm sorry, I mixed up those pronouns.
I'm really working on it.
Um, but usually if you just quicklycorrect yourself and move on, that's,
(17:37):
that's a great response and feels,um, really validating and supportive.
Sam Fuqua (17:43):
Thanks for all that.
So quick correction there.
What about in a workplace wheresomeone does misuse, a pronoun does
not correct, how do you call someonein to a conversation about that
versus calling them out and saying,hey, you're using the wrong pronouns
in a kind of a calling out way?
Jes Rau (18:05):
It obviously all depends on the situation, but, um, kind of similar
is if I notice, um, someone is usingincorrect pronouns for me in a meeting,
um, then I may just shoot a quick, weuse like a lot of instant messaging,
right, whether it's Slack or Teams orHangouts or whatever it is, um, just a
quick message, "Hey, just a reminder, Iuse they/them pronouns," and typically
(18:28):
people are like, "Oh yeah," and they,they shift or they, they work to shift.
Another option is sometimes, dependingon how I'm feeling that day, if I, if
I feel like I have enough energy, um,to do it, I might, uh, just pause and,
and just say that in front of the group.
But in a really like, kind of, uh,supportive way of, again, just, "Hey,
(18:48):
just a reminder, I use they/thempronouns," and then again, not making
a big deal of it, just move on.
And then for others, so, uh, for me it'sreally tricky if people speak on my behalf
or, um, come in into my defense, I wouldprefer not, that folks don't do that.
And so I often will ask people ifthey jump in and say, "Jes uses
(19:11):
they/them pronouns," um, I'll sendthat message and say, "Oh, please
don't, uh, speak on my behalf.
It really, you could open up a can ofworms that I'll, I don't wanna deal
with in that day or with that person.
And I, thank you.
I appreciate you, but, but I'd rathernot deal with that or manage that."
But I would say typically like a, ashort private conversation, a quick
(19:31):
reminder note, um, for those who maybejust made a mistake or just forgot
what pronouns or don't know because wehaven't met before, um, don't know what
pronouns folks use is a, a great way tocall people in and, um, let them know.
Sam Fuqua (19:47):
And finally, do you encounter in your, in your workplace or in,
uh, talking with other folks, any,uh, cases where people are outright
resistant to the idea of, uh, shiftingtheir own thinking about pronouns and,
uh, they may just be a hard case, youknow, old dog, new tricks, or they
(20:09):
may just be, uh, actively resisting.
And how does one deal with that?
I mean, I guess at, at a certainpoint we have federal laws against
harassment in the workplace, andthis could come into that area.
But I wasn't so much talking about thatnecessarily, as just dealing with someone
who is really, uh, resistant to this.
Jes Rau (20:29):
Yes, unfortunately, it's a, it's a fairly common experience.
Um, and it can come inin several forms, right?
It can be a person who just kindof scoffs and, and laughs when you
share, uh, that you use pronounsother than what they expected to use
for you or wanted to use for you.
It can be outright.
(20:49):
So in a training setting, um, it hasdefinitely been the case that people
have said, "I don't use pronouns.
I won't use pronouns,"which we can talk about.
Uh, we can talk aboutthat if you'd like to.
But, um, what they're really saying is,I, I will use the pronouns that I would
like to use and, and, um, any others,I'm not going to be respectful of that.
(21:11):
Um, and then there are folks whopurposefully and who regularly, um, misuse
or use improper pronouns for folks, andthat happens on a regular basis too.
So no matter how many times you remindthem, um, they're still using the
incorrect pronoun and it's becausethey don't agree with having non-binary
pronouns in particular, or using apronoun that they don't think aligns
(21:34):
with a person's gender expression, um,that they're making assumptions about.
I.
And so in those situations, I do, uh,tend to, and do suggest that folks
get a little bit more firm if it,if they're in a place, I'll always,
prioritizing their safety just tosay that's, it's really disrespectful
on, or opening a question with a, anopen-ended question, "I'm wondering why
(21:57):
you don't want to respect my pronounsor respect this person's pronouns.
I wonder, um, can you share with me alittle bit about what's going on for you?"
And sometimes that leads toa really good conversation.
Sometimes it doesn't.
But it, but it can be a toolasking those open-ended questions.
In a workplace setting, what myhope would be is that the workplace
(22:17):
would say something like, you arenot required to share your own
pronouns, um, if you don't want to.
That's not a requirement for anyone.
But it is a requirement to respectother people's pronouns and to
put that effort and energy in.
And then, like you said, Sam, it canget into, uh, disciplinary action or
things like that if someone refuses to.
And then in the rest of the world,it, it honestly comes down to
(22:40):
picking and choosing your battles.
Like, is this a person I care aboutenough, um, that I need to engage in
this conversation with them, to askthem, um, to use the pronouns that I use?
Uh, or is this a person who I'm, Ijust don't have a deep relationship,
or I don't care about, or they'retrying to escalate a conflict, in which
(23:01):
case I might just choose to leave orwalk away from that situation because
it's not really gonna go anywhere.
Alexis Miles (23:07):
What's the impact of a person's refusal to use the pronouns
that a person wants to be used for them?
Jes Rau (23:16):
Yeah, that's a really great and important question.
The impact can be really profound,uh, because like I said, for
me it's about being seen.
And for a lot of us, I think it'sabout being seen and valued for who we
are and how we show up in the world.
And so when we refuse to use a person'spronouns, that they have said that
(23:39):
they would like to use, it can feelreally invalidating and really painful.
Um, like you, you arenot willing to see me.
You're not, I am not worthy of your,uh, respect and love and attention.
I've heard some people even say, I wasworking with some youth and someone
said, that they're, they have a, afamily member who is very adamant
(24:02):
in making sure that they genderthe, their family's dogs correctly.
He, the, this dog's a boy.
This dog's a girl.
Um, but not them, not them as the,the niece or nephew and how that
feels, um, that they've made, valuetheir pets over a family member
who's, um, wanting the same thing.
And so it's, it can be really devaluing.
(24:25):
In the mental health world, it is beenresearched and shown that respecting
a person's identity, including theirpronouns and esp, even just something as
small as pronouns, um, can dramaticallyreduce the risk of suicide within
the community of transgender people.
And so, um, the impact can go from,from a, a small feeling of invalidation
(24:49):
all the way through to preventingsuicide and preventing people from, uh,
making really terrible choices to copewith, with the world that we live in.
So it, it may feel small, but it'spretty significant to the folks who
are, are trying to navigate the world.
Alexis Miles (25:08):
Thank you for that because some of the conversations I hear, uh,
imply that, oh, this is a trivial thing.
It's just people experimenting.
Trying things on.
They're gonna changetheir minds in the future.
So it's trivialized a lot in themedia by people who are against the,
the use of using the pro, pronounsthat people want used for themselves.
Jes Rau (25:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Alexis Miles (25:33):
So I, I, I do have another question because sometimes I hear people
say, what is your preferred pronoun asopposed to, which pronouns do you use?
Can you say somethingabout preferred pronouns?
Jes Rau (25:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So, um, preferred pronouns was the, away that we talked about this, probably
maybe even 15 or so, 10, 15 years ago.
Um, the term preferredpronouns was, was appropriate.
But again, as language evolves, asidentities evolve, as people evolve, um,
the community has asked and, and wants toremove preferred before pronouns because,
(26:11):
um, preferences are easier to disregard.
Preferences are easier to, um, dismiss.
And so instead of saying, "I preferthat you call me they/them," folks are
just saying, "No, my pronouns are...
These are my pronouns..."
Um, so you can say aperson's personal pronouns.
You can say a person's, um, pronounsbut preferred, um, was, was kind
(26:34):
of diminishing and people were justlike, oh, if you just prefer it, I
don't, I'm not going to, to honorit because it's just a preference.
And so that's the shift that'shappened, uh, with that language
over the last few years.
Sam Fuqua (26:48):
Jes, I know you've done a lot of work with youth throughout your career.
This, uh, discussion of pronouns,does it differ and if so, how?
Jes Rau (26:58):
Yeah.
Uh, in large part it does differ.
I think there's still pockets of placesdepending on where you are and what the,
um, value systems and belief systems ofthe communities that you're within are.
Um, but in, in general, withthe youth that I have worked
with, there is a dramatic shift.
Um, even from, uh, again, like ten yearsago or so, there's been a, a pretty
(27:22):
dramatic shift where it's not really,uh, As much of a big deal as a youth, as
you might think it would be with youth.
Youth are just like, kind of, yeah.
Yep.
That person uses they/them pronouns or,um, this young person is transgender
and they just kind of roll withit, um, and support each other.
It's, it's pretty, I, I wouldn'tsay it's perfect by any means.
(27:46):
There's still a lot ofchallenges that trans youth face.
Um, a lot of ridicule, a lot of bullying.
But there's definitely abroader or greater acceptance.
And just walking through schoolsor walking through youth programs,
hearing young people say, oh, Iuse they, they/them pronouns, or I
use he/him pronouns when maybe theexpression, their gender expression
(28:09):
might not indicate that for folks.
It's common and it's, um, mind bogglingbecause in my time in high school, middle
school, that was absolutely not the case.
Um, that was, uh, a recipe for,um, bringing a lot of really
negative attention your way.
And so, um, I do think it shifted.
I do think youth are more used to itand are more willing to, uh, see that
(28:35):
people's lived experiences are justdifferent and we don't have to be, um,
in the one or, one of two boxes, uh, inthe way that we've always set things up.
Sam Fuqua (28:46):
Well, that's really good to hear.
It's another example of where youngpeople lead the way, sounds like.
Jes Rau (28:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Alexis Miles (28:52):
And Jes, in addition to how young people are, are able
to have a more expansive view of, ofgender, what are some other things
that give you hope in this area?
Jes Rau (29:04):
Yeah, it's, uh, it, on the age spectrum, I would
say that it's, um, elders too.
There are a lot of elderswho are, are leading the way.
Um, I was watching a, a short video clipof, um, compiled, uh, group of people
who are 40 and older who use non-binaryor non-gendered pronouns of various
(29:27):
types, and they, uh, were sharing whenthey started using those pronouns.
So again, some folks in the 60s andthe 50s, some folks more recently, but
they're still within that kind of agegroup of 40 and older, and they were
doing that to help inspire and supportyouth who've, and, and for those people
(29:47):
who say it's just a phase or who justsay that it's just an experiment.
This is just a thing kids are doing.
Um, and I'm in that age group.
I'm within that 40 and older group,and you, have used, uh, non-gendered
pronouns for a very long time, um,since I became aware of them existing.
And so, uh, I think that gives me hopethat there are elders who are also
(30:11):
paving the way and being supportive.
And then folks outside of thecommunity who are willing to do
the same thing no matter what the,the age demographic that they are.
Um, I think the, the number of mediaoptions and where we're seeing non-binary
characters or transgender charactersand TV shows and cartoons and, um,
(30:33):
other media is really giving me hopebecause representation really matters.
Being able to see yourself asa part of this world really
matters to a lot of people.
So that, that brings me hope.
And then just the conversations I'vebeen able to have, even with people
who are so adamantly against the useof non-gendered pronouns, most of the
(30:56):
time, those folks, with a conversationare at least willing to put their guard
down a little bit, um, in my experience.
I know that's not, noteverybody's experience.
But at least willing to say, oh, I didn'tunderstand that a pronoun is just a part
of speech and all of us use pronouns.
Everyone uses pronouns.
(31:16):
And I, I didn't get that.
I thought it was just a thingthat those people were doing.
Um, so those con, conversations thatdisarm, um, and peop, where people can
come together have been really inspiring.
Alexis Miles (31:29):
And Jes, for people who want to know more about pronouns,
the importance of pronouns, thefact that we all use pronouns all
the time, for people want some moreresources, what would you recommend?
Jes Rau (31:44):
Yeah, so I think two resources that can be really helpful.
One is a website called Trans StudentEducational Resources, or TESR.
So it's uh, transstudent.org, and it'sa group of educators, um, students,
who come together and collect, um,different resources for folks to be
(32:05):
able to explore these ideas more.
And so they have great resourceson understanding gender, gender
expression, pronouns, um,various other parts of identity.
And then another is, um, local toColorado, but they have lots of,
uh, resources as well, and it's anorganization called Envision You.
And so, um, it's all one word,envisionyou.org, and they are a
(32:29):
great organization with lots ofresources on their site as well.
Sam Fuqua (32:36):
Jes, it's been great to talk to you.
It's great working with you and, andI really appreciate that we're able
to have this conversation as well.
Jes Rau (32:43):
Same.
And I love the, the SidewaysPod team is so supportive.
Um, and so thank you all as wellfor the opportunity to share.
Alexis Miles (32:51):
Absolutely.
It's a very, very important topic.
Thanks, Jes.
Sam Fuqua (32:56):
Jes Rau is the Manager of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
Training at Well Power, a mentalhealth service provider in Denver.
And they're also a memberof the production team here
at Well, That Went Sideways!
(33:18):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(33:41):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(34:02):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
For me, it's about being seen, and for a lot of us, I think it's
about being seen and valued for who weare and how we show up in the world.
And so when we refuse to use a person'spronouns, that they have said that
they would like to use, it can feelreally invalidating and really painful.
(00:28):
Like you, you are not willing to see me.
You're not, I am not worthy of your,uh, respect and love and attention.
Sam Fuqua (00:38):
That's Jes Rau, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
On this episode, we talk with JesRau about pronouns, why they matter,
(01:03):
and how we can respond to some of thecommon conflicts and apprehensions
around using non-binary pronouns.
Jes Rau is the Manager of Diversity,Equity, and Inclusion Training
at Well Power, a large mentalhealth service provider in Denver.
They are also a member of the productionteam here at Well, That Went Sideways!
(01:27):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of the programjoined as always by Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:33):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:34):
And we're really excited to have as our guest for this
edition of Well, That Went Sideways!
another member of theSideways team, Jes Rau.
Hi Jes.
Jes Rau (01:43):
Hey Sam.
Hi Alexis.
Sam Fuqua (01:45):
Really great to, uh, to have you on the program.
To start with, Jes, can you tell ourlisteners your thought process as
to why you have chosen to use thepronouns you use, and what that was
like for you coming to that decision?
Jes Rau (02:02):
Sure.
So, um, it was a journey.
Pronouns are often, uh, a journey forfolks to, um, explore and see what
fits and what feels right to them.
Um, and for me, growing up throughoutthe 80s and 90s and into the
2000s, there weren't many choices.
There, there were a fewchoices for gendered pronouns.
(02:24):
And for non-gendered pronouns, therereally just weren't many, especially
not ones that felt like they fit.
Um, some that kind of became popularin the 70s but weren't widely used
and, um, didn't feel right for me.
And then, I heard through, um, attendingsome conferences and participating
in some workshops that there weresome folks who were identifying, um,
(02:46):
using they/them, and that felt good.
That felt really like it fit.
And, and I guess I should say too,um, it felt like it fit compared
to what the other options are.
So there may be something that weinvent later on that will feel better,
but compared to what the other optionswere, he/him, she/her, um, some of the
(03:08):
other pronouns, they then just feltthe best when I kind of tried it on.
Sam Fuqua (03:15):
And remind us, what is a pronoun?
Jes Rau (03:17):
Yeah.
So pronouns are, are actually just,they're a part of speech that we use.
Um, they're the short littlewords, um, that we use, um,
throughout all of our language.
But in this case, we're talkingabout personal pronouns.
So a pronoun that we're using to,a word we're using to refer to a
person, um, when they are not thereor when we're not using their name.
(03:40):
So when you think about, likesaying, "He went to the store."
"They went to the store."
"She went to the store."
Um, those are pronouns.
And so, uh, we use 'em all the time.
Everybody has pronouns.
"I", the, the word "I" is a pronoun.
Um, you're referring to yourselfwithout using your name.
Um, and so, "We" as a pronoun.
(04:01):
The collective of all ofus without using our names.
And so just keeping inmind, um, we all use them.
We all have them.
It's just a part of speech.
And we actually use, uh,non-gendered or non-binary.
We use "they/them" as asingular pronoun all the time.
So imagine you're, you're at a restaurant,and it's raining outside and you
(04:22):
look over at the table next to you,the people have left and you realize
that someone has left their umbrella.
That's what you would say,"They left their umbrella."
That's, it's a common thing for usto use, uh, they/them, when we don't
know the gender of a person, um, touse they/them as a singular pronoun.
(04:43):
And so, um, it's something weactually always do and we have the
skills to do and we've always done.
Uh, it just feels heightened rightnow because folks are, are feeling
nervous or threatened by the idea ofusing them more often or more commonly.
But yeah, pronouns are just,just the words we use when
we're not using a person's name.
Sam Fuqua (05:03):
And maybe we should back up and talk a little bit about
gender and what that even means.
How do you define gender, Jes?
Jes Rau (05:13):
Yeah.
So when I think about gender andwhen I train folks on gender, um, I
think about it as a social construct.
Basically, something that we've createdas a society, um, that categorizes people.
And that's what we do, right?
Our brains need to categorizethings so that we can have
efficient thought processes.
And so throughout manydifferent iterations of, um,
(05:37):
exploring what does gender mean?
What does sex mean?
Um, how do they, how arethey related to one another?
Um, what a lot of us think and whatfeels right to me is that gender
and sex are two separate things.
Gender is the way you feel internallyand want to express yourself outwardly.
Um, and sex is the biological.
And so those two thingsdon't have to align.
(05:59):
They don't have to be,uh, connected for folks.
So when I think about gender, yeah,I think about it as, uh, a bigger
social construct that we havecreated to help categorize people.
Sam Fuqua (06:11):
Well, and the, the whole pronoun question, or in
some cases, pronoun debate, hasreally, I think, made a lot of us
think more deeply about gender.
Jes Rau (06:21):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think it's, it's become very, verydivisive and, um, very challenging for
folks because we're asking, when we'reasking folks to consider gender in a
different way than maybe they had before,and then also to do the action of using
pronouns that they're not used to or thatmay have been different than what they
(06:42):
expected, then people are, um, defensive.
It makes people really nervous, makespeople really, uh, feel like, hey,
you're changing something that feelscomfortable to me and I don't like that.
And so, so yeah.
It's, it's very broad conversation rightnow being had everywhere from workplaces
to governments to schools to faith-basedinstitutions to families, but also a
(07:08):
really challenging conversation to have.
Alexis Miles (07:11):
Jes, one of the things I've noticed is that some people have not
thought enough about the language to evenunderstand that pronouns are gendered.
So, I, I'd just like toread a, a little something.
I believe this is from the Anti-DefamationLeague and just get your response to it.
It says, "From an early age, many weretaught that pronouns should follow
(07:33):
specific rules along the gender binary.
She/her/hers for girls and women,and he/him/his for boys and men.
However, as our society has progressedin understanding gender identity,
our language must also be updated.
It should be accurate and conveyunderstanding and respect for all people,
(07:55):
especially those who are transgender,gender nonconforming, and non-binary."
Would, do you agree with that analysis?
Jes Rau (08:03):
Oh yeah, that's, that's beautiful and perfect and said, said really well.
Um, I think we, like I was just sayinga little bit, we get stuck in what's
comfortable, um, and, and, the realityis, is that things are always changing.
Language is always changing.
Like think back, um, to thelanguage that you've introduced
into your vocabulary, right?
(08:25):
There was not email.
Email was not a word any of us knew,and then all of a sudden it was.
It is a thing that we all know aboutand we all use, we all understand.
And so language evolves.
Think about slang terms, like thingslike saying cool or rad or awesome.
Like those things change over time.
Our language changes and,and evolves over time.
(08:45):
And so this is another example of that.
And then also our understanding hasgotten so much deeper, um, and so much
richer in terms of people's experiences.
And I think because of social media,more people were able to share
their stories and find each other.
And so therefore that amplified someof the, uh, experiences that folks
(09:06):
were having outside of what they'retalking about, that gender binary.
Alexis Miles (09:11):
The thing about the language evolving reminds me of some
of the language that we use and maybeeven have begun to take for granted
now, like cisgendered, transgendered,non-binary, intersex, gender fluid.
Could you take a moment and just give a,a brief explanation for some of the more
common terms used to describe the livedexperience of some people with gender?
Jes Rau (09:36):
Sure.
Yeah, happy to.
Um, and I think there's, there's a bigmisunderstanding of what cisgender means.
Um, and there are folks who aretaking pretty strong offense to
being referred to as cisgender.
So, um, cis and trans are just two terms.
They're Latin terms.
Cis means basicallylike in alignment with.
(09:57):
I'm aligned.
And trans means I'm not aligned.
And so when we talk about people whoare born, um, and they're assigned
male or a female at birth, um, let'ssay someone's assigned male at birth
and then they grow up and they'relike, yes, I feel like I am, uh, male.
That feels like that describes me.
I'm a man.
(10:18):
And my biology is the same.
Then your cisgender.
Your, your gender identity aligns withyour sex that was assigned at birth.
For trans folks, that's not the case.
We are born and then as we growand learn and develop, our gender
identity may not be aligned with thesex that we were assigned at birth.
(10:40):
And so that's all it means isaligned and, and, uh, not aligned
essentially, in the simplest, uh, terms.
So those ones, that's howI would describe those.
A couple of other non-binaryis a, um, a type of gender.
So you have male, female.
Man or woman, right?
And then non-binary are folkswho don't feel like they fit
(11:03):
on that, uh, two-part spectrum.
So we have, sometimes we think aboutsex and gender as there's men on
one side, women on the other side.
Um, that mean, eitheryou are one or the other.
It's like an off and on switch, right?
You're either on or off, one or the other.
Um, and that's what binary is.
You have two choices and that's it.
With folks who are non-binary, wedon't feel like we fit in those
(11:27):
two choices neatly or nicely.
And so, again, because there'snot a good word for describing who
we are yet, like we haven't, um,created those terms together yet.
We kind of describedbased on who we're not.
We are not binary.
We don't fit in that box.
Um, and so that's what non-binary is.
(11:49):
Gender nonconforming or gender fluid,um, those types of terms, that just means
people within the various identities have,have different experiences of gender.
So gender fluid, um, are folks whokind of go in and out of different
gender feelings and experiences.
So, um, they may feel at some pointin time, a little bit more like male
(12:12):
or masculine or man fits, and thenthey might shift more into non-binary
and that feel like that fits.
So it kind of, um, depends onthe day, the situation, the time.
Um, it's much more fluid, it flows, right?
And so, um, there are a lot of differentterms, many, many, many that folks
are experimenting with, trying on, um,exploring to find what fits best for them.
Sam Fuqua (12:37):
Well, let's take a couple of, uh, examples of where we can
come into conflict with pronouns.
And as we mentioned in our introduction,you are the lead for diversity,
equity, and inclusion work at alarge mental health nonprofit.
Let me start with maybe the, the lessconfrontational situation, which is
(12:58):
whether it's a friend, a family memberor work colleague were supportive of
the pronoun conversation and usingthe correct pronouns with, uh, someone
we work with or someone we care aboutin our friendships or family, but
we're nervous about making a mistake.
And so I'll just gowith my own self, right?
(13:19):
Jes, so when we met 2020 and you toldme, uh, prefer they/them, but she/her is
okay, part of me was like, okay, shoo,uh, I, because I don't wanna screw up.
And part of that is a motivationto not hurt the feelings
of my friend or coworker.
But also kind of lazy on mypart as I thought about it.
(13:40):
Like, come on Sam, you could like payattention to this and get this right.
So when you have someone who's say,like me, who's supportive and trying but
does make a mistake and use the wrongpronoun, how should we approach that?
Jes Rau (13:54):
It's a great example.
Definitely a great example.
And I'm gonna note one thing before we,before I dive into, um, what, what folks
can do, is that pretty often, um, it'spretty common that folks will say, um,
I'm okay with two different pronouns.
One that's more binary, and thenthey/them or another, non-binary
and non-gendered pronoun.
(14:15):
And sometimes we do that becausewe're truly okay with it.
We really are okay.
We, either one is fine with us.
Um, sometimes we do that because wedon't want to be a burden on others.
So we don't want to force othersor make others uncomfortable.
Um, we don't want to havethe conversations constantly
about gender or the reminders.
And so it lightens the mentalload for us to say, oh, it's
(14:38):
okay to use she/her or they/them.
Um, another reason that wemight say that is because, um,
we're still trying things on.
We're seeing does they/them fit?
Does she/her fit?
Does he/him fit?
And so people evolve over time andsometimes can become more comfortable
with one pronoun versus the, the, whatwe call mixed pronouns that may, they
(15:01):
may have been using at a different time.
And I think that's definitelybeen a journey for me.
The way it fits for me is that withfolks who I'm very close to and very
familiar with, I don't have a strongreaction when folks use mixed pronouns.
I don't really feel, um,very strongly about it.
And so it's okay with me for people likeSam, you and I, Alexis, um, our Sideways
(15:24):
pod team, my family, my close friends.
Externally, in a work setting orwith people I'm unfamiliar with,
with people I don't know very well,I would strongly prefer not to use,
um, she/her pronouns, and I only usethey/them for a couple of reasons.
One is I feel like you all see me,my, the Sideways pod team, Sam,
(15:45):
Alexis, you all, you see me and youknow me, um, and so I don't have to
question what's going on for folks.
With external people who I'm not asfamiliar with, um, I don't know if
they're seeing me fully as who I am.
And so I think for me, and that'sjust my experience, everybody
has very different experiences.
(16:07):
And another thing that I used to sayis, uh, when I started to kind of push a
little bit, I would say I use she/her foryour comfort and they/them for my comfort.
So you can pick.
Do you need to prioritize your comfort?
And, and no judgment ifthat's what you need to do.
Um, or would you like to prioritize mine?
So if in those settings, sometimespeople would make choices based
(16:32):
on where they were and howthey felt in terms of pronouns.
Um, that is definitely not commonexperience of, of a lot of folks.
A lot of folks really feelstrongly, um, that when they
share, uh, specific pronouns thatyou need to use those pronouns.
If you make a mistake, because mistakeswill happen, in a situation where folks
(16:53):
are, are close to you or friends, orif you just know it's not malicious in
intent, um, the best thing for you all todo if, if you mix up on pronouns is just
to, um, correct yourself and move on.
So say you're talking about me, you'retalking to me, and you say, uh, she,
and you want to use the they/thempronouns, you say, they, she, I
(17:16):
mean they, and then you move on.
Um, you don't have tomake a big production.
Usually people don't want, uh,that, that type of attention.
And then later on you could reach outmaybe by a text message or, uh, pull
the person aside and say, oh, I'm,I'm sorry, I mixed up those pronouns.
I'm really working on it.
Um, but usually if you just quicklycorrect yourself and move on, that's,
(17:37):
that's a great response and feels,um, really validating and supportive.
Sam Fuqua (17:43):
Thanks for all that.
So quick correction there.
What about in a workplace wheresomeone does misuse, a pronoun does
not correct, how do you call someonein to a conversation about that
versus calling them out and saying,hey, you're using the wrong pronouns
in a kind of a calling out way?
Jes Rau (18:05):
It obviously all depends on the situation, but, um, kind of similar
is if I notice, um, someone is usingincorrect pronouns for me in a meeting,
um, then I may just shoot a quick, weuse like a lot of instant messaging,
right, whether it's Slack or Teams orHangouts or whatever it is, um, just a
quick message, "Hey, just a reminder, Iuse they/them pronouns," and typically
(18:28):
people are like, "Oh yeah," and they,they shift or they, they work to shift.
Another option is sometimes, dependingon how I'm feeling that day, if I, if
I feel like I have enough energy, um,to do it, I might, uh, just pause and,
and just say that in front of the group.
But in a really like, kind of, uh,supportive way of, again, just, "Hey,
(18:48):
just a reminder, I use they/thempronouns," and then again, not making
a big deal of it, just move on.
And then for others, so, uh, for me it'sreally tricky if people speak on my behalf
or, um, come in into my defense, I wouldprefer not, that folks don't do that.
And so I often will ask people ifthey jump in and say, "Jes uses
(19:11):
they/them pronouns," um, I'll sendthat message and say, "Oh, please
don't, uh, speak on my behalf.
It really, you could open up a can ofworms that I'll, I don't wanna deal
with in that day or with that person.
And I, thank you.
I appreciate you, but, but I'd rathernot deal with that or manage that."
But I would say typically like a, ashort private conversation, a quick
(19:31):
reminder note, um, for those who maybejust made a mistake or just forgot
what pronouns or don't know because wehaven't met before, um, don't know what
pronouns folks use is a, a great way tocall people in and, um, let them know.
Sam Fuqua (19:47):
And finally, do you encounter in your, in your workplace or in,
uh, talking with other folks, any,uh, cases where people are outright
resistant to the idea of, uh, shiftingtheir own thinking about pronouns and,
uh, they may just be a hard case, youknow, old dog, new tricks, or they
(20:09):
may just be, uh, actively resisting.
And how does one deal with that?
I mean, I guess at, at a certainpoint we have federal laws against
harassment in the workplace, andthis could come into that area.
But I wasn't so much talking about thatnecessarily, as just dealing with someone
who is really, uh, resistant to this.
Jes Rau (20:29):
Yes, unfortunately, it's a, it's a fairly common experience.
Um, and it can come inin several forms, right?
It can be a person who just kindof scoffs and, and laughs when you
share, uh, that you use pronounsother than what they expected to use
for you or wanted to use for you.
It can be outright.
(20:49):
So in a training setting, um, it hasdefinitely been the case that people
have said, "I don't use pronouns.
I won't use pronouns,"which we can talk about.
Uh, we can talk aboutthat if you'd like to.
But, um, what they're really saying is,I, I will use the pronouns that I would
like to use and, and, um, any others,I'm not going to be respectful of that.
(21:11):
Um, and then there are folks whopurposefully and who regularly, um, misuse
or use improper pronouns for folks, andthat happens on a regular basis too.
So no matter how many times you remindthem, um, they're still using the
incorrect pronoun and it's becausethey don't agree with having non-binary
pronouns in particular, or using apronoun that they don't think aligns
(21:34):
with a person's gender expression, um,that they're making assumptions about.
I.
And so in those situations, I do, uh,tend to, and do suggest that folks
get a little bit more firm if it,if they're in a place, I'll always,
prioritizing their safety just tosay that's, it's really disrespectful
on, or opening a question with a, anopen-ended question, "I'm wondering why
(21:57):
you don't want to respect my pronounsor respect this person's pronouns.
I wonder, um, can you share with me alittle bit about what's going on for you?"
And sometimes that leads toa really good conversation.
Sometimes it doesn't.
But it, but it can be a toolasking those open-ended questions.
In a workplace setting, what myhope would be is that the workplace
(22:17):
would say something like, you arenot required to share your own
pronouns, um, if you don't want to.
That's not a requirement for anyone.
But it is a requirement to respectother people's pronouns and to
put that effort and energy in.
And then, like you said, Sam, it canget into, uh, disciplinary action or
things like that if someone refuses to.
And then in the rest of the world,it, it honestly comes down to
(22:40):
picking and choosing your battles.
Like, is this a person I care aboutenough, um, that I need to engage in
this conversation with them, to askthem, um, to use the pronouns that I use?
Uh, or is this a person who I'm, Ijust don't have a deep relationship,
or I don't care about, or they'retrying to escalate a conflict, in which
(23:01):
case I might just choose to leave orwalk away from that situation because
it's not really gonna go anywhere.
Alexis Miles (23:07):
What's the impact of a person's refusal to use the pronouns
that a person wants to be used for them?
Jes Rau (23:16):
Yeah, that's a really great and important question.
The impact can be really profound,uh, because like I said, for
me it's about being seen.
And for a lot of us, I think it'sabout being seen and valued for who we
are and how we show up in the world.
And so when we refuse to use a person'spronouns, that they have said that
(23:39):
they would like to use, it can feelreally invalidating and really painful.
Um, like you, you arenot willing to see me.
You're not, I am not worthy of your,uh, respect and love and attention.
I've heard some people even say, I wasworking with some youth and someone
said, that they're, they have a, afamily member who is very adamant
(24:02):
in making sure that they genderthe, their family's dogs correctly.
He, the, this dog's a boy.
This dog's a girl.
Um, but not them, not them as the,the niece or nephew and how that
feels, um, that they've made, valuetheir pets over a family member
who's, um, wanting the same thing.
And so it's, it can be really devaluing.
(24:25):
In the mental health world, it is beenresearched and shown that respecting
a person's identity, including theirpronouns and esp, even just something as
small as pronouns, um, can dramaticallyreduce the risk of suicide within
the community of transgender people.
And so, um, the impact can go from,from a, a small feeling of invalidation
(24:49):
all the way through to preventingsuicide and preventing people from, uh,
making really terrible choices to copewith, with the world that we live in.
So it, it may feel small, but it'spretty significant to the folks who
are, are trying to navigate the world.
Alexis Miles (25:08):
Thank you for that because some of the conversations I hear, uh,
imply that, oh, this is a trivial thing.
It's just people experimenting.
Trying things on.
They're gonna changetheir minds in the future.
So it's trivialized a lot in themedia by people who are against the,
the use of using the pro, pronounsthat people want used for themselves.
Jes Rau (25:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Alexis Miles (25:33):
So I, I, I do have another question because sometimes I hear people
say, what is your preferred pronoun asopposed to, which pronouns do you use?
Can you say somethingabout preferred pronouns?
Jes Rau (25:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So, um, preferred pronouns was the, away that we talked about this, probably
maybe even 15 or so, 10, 15 years ago.
Um, the term preferredpronouns was, was appropriate.
But again, as language evolves, asidentities evolve, as people evolve, um,
the community has asked and, and wants toremove preferred before pronouns because,
(26:11):
um, preferences are easier to disregard.
Preferences are easier to, um, dismiss.
And so instead of saying, "I preferthat you call me they/them," folks are
just saying, "No, my pronouns are...
These are my pronouns..."
Um, so you can say aperson's personal pronouns.
You can say a person's, um, pronounsbut preferred, um, was, was kind
(26:34):
of diminishing and people were justlike, oh, if you just prefer it, I
don't, I'm not going to, to honorit because it's just a preference.
And so that's the shift that'shappened, uh, with that language
over the last few years.
Sam Fuqua (26:48):
Jes, I know you've done a lot of work with youth throughout your career.
This, uh, discussion of pronouns,does it differ and if so, how?
Jes Rau (26:58):
Yeah.
Uh, in large part it does differ.
I think there's still pockets of placesdepending on where you are and what the,
um, value systems and belief systems ofthe communities that you're within are.
Um, but in, in general, withthe youth that I have worked
with, there is a dramatic shift.
Um, even from, uh, again, like ten yearsago or so, there's been a, a pretty
(27:22):
dramatic shift where it's not really,uh, As much of a big deal as a youth, as
you might think it would be with youth.
Youth are just like, kind of, yeah.
Yep.
That person uses they/them pronouns or,um, this young person is transgender
and they just kind of roll withit, um, and support each other.
It's, it's pretty, I, I wouldn'tsay it's perfect by any means.
(27:46):
There's still a lot ofchallenges that trans youth face.
Um, a lot of ridicule, a lot of bullying.
But there's definitely abroader or greater acceptance.
And just walking through schoolsor walking through youth programs,
hearing young people say, oh, Iuse they, they/them pronouns, or I
use he/him pronouns when maybe theexpression, their gender expression
(28:09):
might not indicate that for folks.
It's common and it's, um, mind bogglingbecause in my time in high school, middle
school, that was absolutely not the case.
Um, that was, uh, a recipe for,um, bringing a lot of really
negative attention your way.
And so, um, I do think it shifted.
I do think youth are more used to itand are more willing to, uh, see that
(28:35):
people's lived experiences are justdifferent and we don't have to be, um,
in the one or, one of two boxes, uh, inthe way that we've always set things up.
Sam Fuqua (28:46):
Well, that's really good to hear.
It's another example of where youngpeople lead the way, sounds like.
Jes Rau (28:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Alexis Miles (28:52):
And Jes, in addition to how young people are, are able
to have a more expansive view of, ofgender, what are some other things
that give you hope in this area?
Jes Rau (29:04):
Yeah, it's, uh, it, on the age spectrum, I would
say that it's, um, elders too.
There are a lot of elderswho are, are leading the way.
Um, I was watching a, a short video clipof, um, compiled, uh, group of people
who are 40 and older who use non-binaryor non-gendered pronouns of various
(29:27):
types, and they, uh, were sharing whenthey started using those pronouns.
So again, some folks in the 60s andthe 50s, some folks more recently, but
they're still within that kind of agegroup of 40 and older, and they were
doing that to help inspire and supportyouth who've, and, and for those people
(29:47):
who say it's just a phase or who justsay that it's just an experiment.
This is just a thing kids are doing.
Um, and I'm in that age group.
I'm within that 40 and older group,and you, have used, uh, non-gendered
pronouns for a very long time, um,since I became aware of them existing.
And so, uh, I think that gives me hopethat there are elders who are also
(30:11):
paving the way and being supportive.
And then folks outside of thecommunity who are willing to do
the same thing no matter what the,the age demographic that they are.
Um, I think the, the number of mediaoptions and where we're seeing non-binary
characters or transgender charactersand TV shows and cartoons and, um,
(30:33):
other media is really giving me hopebecause representation really matters.
Being able to see yourself asa part of this world really
matters to a lot of people.
So that, that brings me hope.
And then just the conversations I'vebeen able to have, even with people
who are so adamantly against the useof non-gendered pronouns, most of the
(30:56):
time, those folks, with a conversationare at least willing to put their guard
down a little bit, um, in my experience.
I know that's not, noteverybody's experience.
But at least willing to say, oh, I didn'tunderstand that a pronoun is just a part
of speech and all of us use pronouns.
Everyone uses pronouns.
(31:16):
And I, I didn't get that.
I thought it was just a thingthat those people were doing.
Um, so those con, conversations thatdisarm, um, and peop, where people can
come together have been really inspiring.
Alexis Miles (31:29):
And Jes, for people who want to know more about pronouns,
the importance of pronouns, thefact that we all use pronouns all
the time, for people want some moreresources, what would you recommend?
Jes Rau (31:44):
Yeah, so I think two resources that can be really helpful.
One is a website called Trans StudentEducational Resources, or TESR.
So it's uh, transstudent.org, and it'sa group of educators, um, students,
who come together and collect, um,different resources for folks to be
(32:05):
able to explore these ideas more.
And so they have great resourceson understanding gender, gender
expression, pronouns, um,various other parts of identity.
And then another is, um, local toColorado, but they have lots of,
uh, resources as well, and it's anorganization called Envision You.
And so, um, it's all one word,envisionyou.org, and they are a
(32:29):
great organization with lots ofresources on their site as well.
Sam Fuqua (32:36):
Jes, it's been great to talk to you.
It's great working with you and, andI really appreciate that we're able
to have this conversation as well.
Jes Rau (32:43):
Same.
And I love the, the SidewaysPod team is so supportive.
Um, and so thank you all as wellfor the opportunity to share.
Alexis Miles (32:51):
Absolutely.
It's a very, very important topic.
Thanks, Jes.
Sam Fuqua (32:56):
Jes Rau is the Manager of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
Training at Well Power, a mentalhealth service provider in Denver.
And they're also a memberof the production team here
at Well, That Went Sideways!
(33:18):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(33:41):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(34:02):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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