August 15, 2023 • 33 mins
In this episode, we talk with Dante King about the roots of racism in America. Dante King is the author of The 400 Year Holocaust: White America's Legal, Psychopathic and Sociopathic Black Genocide - and the Revolt Against Critical Race Theory. He is also a human resources professional and has taught at the University of California, San Francisco, and will soon be guest faculty at The Mayo Clinic School of Medicine. We spoke with Dante King in April at the 2023 White Privilege Conference in Mesa, Arizona.
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Dante King (00:08):
When we as black and brown people begin to emote or express the
ways that we've been aggressed in,uh, marginalized, in this society,
there's resentment and hostility.
In defensiveness, no one wantsto hear it because it, it's not
aligned with the white Americanor the American value system.
Sam Fuqua (00:31):
That's Dante King, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(00:52):
In this episode, we talk with Dante Kingabout the roots of racism in America.
Dante King is the author of The400 Year Holocaust: White America's
Legal, Psychopathic and SociopathicBlack Genocide - and the Revolt
Against Critical Race Theory.
(01:12):
He is also a human resources professionaland has taught at the University
of California, San Francisco, andwill soon be guest faculty at the
Mayo Clinic School of Medicine.
We spoke with Dante King inApril at the 2023 White Privilege
Conference in Mesa, Arizona.
(01:33):
I am Sam Fuqua, co-host ofthe program with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:37):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:38):
And we're so pleased to have Dante King join us for this episode.
Welcome.
Dante King (01:43):
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (01:44):
Uh, we're speaking at the White Privilege Conference, uh, here in Arizona.
What brought you to the conferenceand what are you, what are
you taking away from this one?
Dante King (01:53):
So there are so many things.
Uh, the first is I recently publisheda book entitled The 400 Year Holocaust:
White America's Legal, Psychopathic,and Sociopathic Black Genocide - and
The Revolt Against Critical Race Theory.
And so, um, in much of my work,I've been out on the road here
lately doing a lot of promotingof the book, but also just making
(02:18):
connections with other practitionerswho are all working in this space.
Uh, I think, what I'm taking away fromhere is just a bit of rejuvenation because
it's just, it's been reaffirming and alsofulfilling to be around people who are
doing their own personal, internal work.
(02:39):
Um, and so my work, as I say all thetime is, is life liberatory work.
I'm not afforded the opportunitymuch to go to conferences like this.
Most conferences I go to feel like work.
Um, and this hasn't felt that way much.
Sam Fuqua (03:00):
The subtitle of the book has some powerful words, psychopathic,
sociopathic, um, that some mightsay that's, that's a really hard
language to use, and maybe I, I resistthat, or that doesn't draw me in,
but clearly you've made a consciouschoice to, to call it out in that way.
(03:21):
Why?
Dante King (03:22):
For sure.
Um, when I begin to examine the legalhistory of this country and begin to
draw through line, uh, in the ways,or in the institution of legality
specifically, of the ways that theBritish and then white people created
laws that permitted and, uh, promoted,facilitated the murders of black people.
(03:48):
And specifically within the first twocenturies, the language is very stark.
It's extremely clear.
The, the motivations are there.
Um, and I'll give a few examples of that.
Uh, but I kept repeatingto myself, this is insane.
This is insane.
I can't believe this.
This is diabolical.
I had never seen certain things before.
(04:10):
And then I located The PsychopathicRacial Personality by Dr.
Bobby Wright in what, whichwas written in the 1970s.
And he says very fervently intheir relationship with the black
race whites are psychopaths.
And I said, wow, that's it.
(04:31):
And so I'll give a few examples.
Um, just, I'm gonna quotefrom a few court cases.
One being an 1855, uh, murdercase concerning a young
girl by the name of Celia.
This was in Missouri.
And she had been raped repeatedlyby her master Robert Newsom, and
she had bore two children andwas pregnant with the third one.
(04:54):
And she can, consistently wentto his daughters to seek help.
She went to others in thecommunity to ask them to, uh,
help her stop him from raping her.
And she was sick throughthis third pregnancy.
And so he continued to rape her.
So she ended up murdering him.
And when the case went to court,the judge gave this instruction
(05:15):
to the jury, basically.
If Newsom was in the habit of havingintercourse with the defendant who was
his slave and went to her cabin on thenight he was killed to have intercourse
with her or for any other purpose,and while he was standing in the floor
talking to her and she struck him withthe stick, which was a dangerous weapon,
(05:37):
and knocked him down and struck him againafter he fell and killed him by either
blow, it is murder in the first degree.
So I'm gonna restate this.
So if New Newsom was in the habit ofraping her, and he went to her cabin on
that night to rape her, and she foughtback and resisted and, and killed him,
then it's murder in the, the first degree.
And so they had her hanged.
Um, and so another case bythe Mississippi Supreme Court.
(06:02):
In 1859, the Mississippi SupremeCourt ruled that a nine year old
black child that had been raped by ablack male slave, that it wasn't rape.
And what they said was, the crimeof rape does not exist in this
state between African slaves.
Our laws recognize no maritalstatus as between slaves.
Their sexual intercourse is leftto be regulated by their owners.
(06:26):
The regulations of law as to thewhite race on the subject of sexual
intercourse, do not and cannot, forobvious reasons, apply to slaves.
Their intercourse is promiscuous in theviolation of a female slave by a male
slave would be a mere assault and battery.
And so you move forward to 1918.
You've got the Florida SupremeCourt ruling in Dallas v.
(06:48):
State in 1918 that black women can't beraped because they're immoral, and what
they say is what has been said by someof our courts about an unchained female
being a comparatively rare exception isno doubt true where the population is
composed largely of the Caucasian race.
But we would blind ourselves toactual conditions if we adopted
(07:10):
this rule where another race thatis largely immoral constitutes an
appreciable part of the population.
And so as a Black American being on theother end, the receiving end of this, I
judge it and assess it as psychopathic.
Whites may not.
Asians may not.
No other group or personhas to judge it that way.
(07:31):
But I really believe in the liberatorypractice of being able to name my
experience and the experience of mypeople in the ways that are useful and
clear to me that give me validation.
And so I, um, in looking at the, thedefinitions, the standard definitions
(07:51):
of sociopathy and psychopathy, I said,wow, this is exactly what this is.
Sam Fuqua (07:57):
And that obviously is, is gruesome to hear, but
it's in the public record.
And I think a, as we sort of generallyknow about mistreatment of, uh,
enslaved people, it's important thatwe, we get the details sometimes
as hard as they are to hear.
Dante King (08:18):
For sure.
And I also wanna, um, just clarifythe last case I quoted was 1918.
That's 53 years after slavery ended.
And so the Florida Supreme Courtis ruling that black women are
immoral and can't be raped.
Alexis Miles (08:36):
And you, you talk about through line.
So can you show us that throughline from these laws to current
behavior, current policies, et cetera?
Dante King (08:47):
Absolutely.
Um, I'll give one example.
So I just gave those three, right?
Those cases, um, span a periodof roughly what, 60, 70 years.
That's going out of the mid 19thcentury into the early 20th century.
But if we go back, there are laws such asthe Casual Killing Act of 1669, um, which
(09:10):
said, "Whereas the only law enforced forthe punishment of refractory servants
resisting their master, mistress oroverseer cannot be inflicted upon Negroes
nor the obstinacy of many of them besuppressed by other than violent means.
Be it enacted and declared by this grandassembly, if any slave resists his master
(09:33):
or other by his master's order correctinghim and by the extremity of the correction
should happen to die, that his deathshould not be accounted a felony, but
the master or the other person appointedby the master to punish him be acquitted
from molestation since it cannot bepresumed that premeditated malice, which
alone makes murder a felony, shouldinduce any man to destroy his own estate.
(09:56):
And so they're giving, in a veryalacritous manner, the permission and
authority for any person to just murderblack people without consequence.
It's not accounted a felony.
That's followed up by laws in1672, and a law in 1680, an act
preventing negro insurrections.
(10:16):
These laws are published, uh,in, in the colony records.
They're also published atchurches throughout this time.
That was written into the law thatthey would be published at the
parish churches every six months.
And so when you examine this historydecade by decade, and I'm talking, I
give, roughly, I would say 10 to 15examples, decade by decade, a combination
(10:41):
of colonial level laws and then statelevel laws once we transition into the
United States, coupled with court casesat the local, state, and federal level,
um, and you get to, for example, the20th century and you have the Supreme
Court ruling of 1927, the Buck v.
Bell ruling, where they decided thatcompulsory sterilization of the unfit and
(11:06):
undesirable population did not violate thedue process clause in the 14th Amendment.
And then the Corgan v.
Buckley, Euclid v.
Ambler, they're using scientific academictheory to say we're going to subjugate
blacks and put them in, uh, neighborhoodsthat are separate from white people
because they're developmentally inferior.
(11:29):
They're morally incapable ofdeveloping, uh, in that manner.
And so you have all of theserationalizations that are rooted in
what I define as not just racism orwhite racism, it's anti-blackness.
And so the laws are riddledwith anti-blackness.
It's not just we're going to exclude,but we're going to actually do
(11:51):
harm to you, and that's a differentlevel of a maniacal situation.
Sam Fuqua (12:01):
And to use, uh, science or, you know, bogus
science, uh, to somehow justify.
What is that about?
Dante King (12:11):
Sociopathy is how I defined it, because there is an obsession and a
compulsion that people possess, from how Iread it, that drives them to find whatever
reason necessary to superiorize themselvesand create a, a very inferior orientation.
(12:34):
And one of the things I appreciateabout Toni Morrison's work, and I quote
her in here, an interview that shegave, and she said it very succinctly,
"If you can only be tall becausesomeone else is on their knees, then
you have a very serious problem."
And she said at the time, and Ibelieve that white people have a very,
very serious problem, and they needto figure out what to do about it.
(12:57):
And so if you go back and you investigatehow whiteness emerged, it actually
emerged initially as a Christian nation.
They're using the languageChristian, Christian, Christian.
It's not until they begin to convertcertain members from, uh, Indian
bands as they're noted in the,the law, as well as, uh, Negroes.
(13:18):
Once they start converting them intothe Christian faith in, in or around
the mid 17th century, they need to findanother way to distinguish themselves.
And so it's no longer Englishfreeborn Christian, it's white.
And so white, the white racein white America develops as
a terrorist organization, um,on principles of terrorism.
(13:40):
And we have to understand thenthat the, the intentionality behind
white racism and anti-blackness,this, this was not happenstance.
It was legal, it was moral, violence,anti-black violence sat at the core of
white morality, of Christian morality.
(14:00):
Um, it was an economicand political pursuit.
It's all of these things.
Alexis Miles (14:06):
So a lot of what you're talking about would be
understood if people understoodCRT - critical race theory.
Can you talk about criticalrace theory and what that means?
I know people hear the term a lot, but alot of people don't know what it means.
Dante King (14:22):
Right.
So critical race theory is theidea that race informs people's
realities or has informed people'srealities, and it's not a theory.
It's actually critical race realitybecause white men created laws, ruled in
(14:43):
cases, which I just shared some examplesabout, of, of, and they decided the fate
of people, and they decided to use theirauthority and position to do harm to
people, and specifically black people.
Economic deprivation, education,educational violence, um, uh, being
(15:07):
in total control of our experience,our existence here as African people.
As I say in my book, black people,black American people don't know a
reality outside of white racial control.
And so that's not a theory,that's fact and it's a reality.
Everything I know has been definedand controlled and facilitated
(15:33):
through white domination.
And that's true for my mother, my,and father and grandparents, everyone.
If you are a black American with a, ahistory here, uh, and a lineage that
goes back to the antebellum period,that is not true for other groups.
We as African American people arethe creation of white people and
(15:54):
they've controlled everything aboutus, and so therefore, we have to
look to them if we want to be a partof their organizations, if we want
to advance in their organizations.
If we go against this, uh, the context ina way that is not permitted and it makes
(16:15):
the wrong people uncomfortable, we can be,um, our personhood, our livelihood can be
diminished and affected and impacted in away where we're no longer able to survive.
And so Martin Luther, um, not MartinLuther King, but Malcolm X, he gave
an interview at UC Berkeley in 1963,and he says, when you're in your own
(16:36):
nation, under your own court system,under your own, uh, institutions,
you're in a position to get justice.
But when you're in another man'scountry, in another man's land,
under another man's court system,you have to look to that other man
for justice and you'll never get it.
And he followed it up with sayingin Negroes are the authority
(16:58):
on that here in America.
Alexis Miles (17:01):
I'd like to drive a point home.
Everything you're saying isnot your personal opinion.
This is documented.
Dante King (17:08):
Which is why I used the, the approach that I do because if
you and Sam and I sit here and wehave a discussion around these laws
and what they are, we're, we're notgonna argue, oh, this didn't happen.
We're going to say, wow,this is interesting.
(17:30):
Let, let's discuss what theimpacts of this were, because we
can't debate that it happened.
As Sam mentioned earlier,it's in the public record.
Alexis Miles (17:39):
So what are your feelings about the attempts, and not only the
attempts, but the actual implementationof laws that critical race reality,
I think as you correctly refer toit, should not be taught in schools?
Dante King (17:54):
Well, it's to protect white comfort.
It's to protect white domination.
It's to protect, it is toprotect white racial control.
And one of the things that I beginto understand through my study is
that white people have never hadto be reflective or accountable
when it comes to people of color.
(18:14):
And so how dare you try to compelme to do that as a white person?
There's no inherent value in doinganything of that, that nature.
It does not align with the whitevalue system, with the white
cultural value system, which isrooted in power and control through
(18:37):
institutional design, right?
Economics, educational, like itdoes not serve me in any way.
I don't need to be in relationshipwith you, uh, inferior person.
I just finished an interviewwith Robin DiAngelo.
We did a joint interview together.
(18:58):
Um, and one of the things she said towardthe end, she looked me and the interviewer
in the eye, who was a black woman, and shesays, "I want you to take something in.
I was told I was the, the message thatI received about people of color," she
says, "I was never meant to love you.
(19:18):
I was never meant to love you.
In fact, I was told as a whitewoman that being in relationship
with you, having anything to dowith a person of color actually
lessened my value as a white person.
And so there's no compelling factor.
Unless one becomes or, or worksthrough processes to become in
(19:41):
touch, uh, or connect with theirhumanity and the humanity of others."
But again, Dr.
Bobby Wright, he says thatwhite people have no morality
where race is the variable.
And I am inclined to agree with that.
I've lived it.
I've experienced it.
I've now researched it and understand why.
You know, following laws and going bythe book, which what the are is what
(20:05):
these laws required white people todo, it erased their moral compass.
You, you cannot be socialized to commitviolence and murder and be allowed
to rape, rape, rape and, and then beconnected in, into your own humanity
in a way that compels you to feel.
One would have to turn all of that off.
(20:27):
And so we look around today and whenwe as black and brown people begin to
emote or express the ways that we've beenaggressed in, in a, uh, marginalized,
in this society, there's resentmentand hostility and defensiveness.
No one wants to hear it becauseit, it's not aligned with the white
(20:51):
American or the American value system.
Alexis Miles (20:55):
So the cost then would be the cost of humanity.
One's own humanity.
Dante King (21:01):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (21:01):
So the cost to white people is the cost of
their own humanity in some ways.
Dante King (21:05):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (21:06):
So it's not a freebie.
Dante King (21:07):
No.
No.
And I appreciate, there, there's this,um, documentary called Slave Catchers
and Slave Resistors, and there's a,um, white professor, I, I forget his
name, he's from Duke University though,but he talks about how in order to
integrate into these colonies back inthe 17th, uh, and 18th centuries, he
(21:30):
says, these white people, he says, youhave to have made a deal with the devil.
Like you, you had to just become soulless.
Sam Fuqua (21:41):
Can you talk a little bit about another facet of, of your
work, your life as an educator forone of the elite medical institutions
in this country, The Mayo Clinic.
How did you navigate some of what we'vebeen talking about in that context?
Dante King (21:57):
This is great.
So I actually, um, have been workingwith them for about a year now.
And, but I just received, um, anacademic appointment as an assistant
professor of medical education inThe Mayo Clinic School of Medicine.
And how we came together, how thiscollaboration emerged was that several of
(22:19):
them, I was serving as guest faculty atUCSF, another med, medical school and some
high level people there, uh, at The MayoClinic took a course that I teach there.
Within that course, I do a veryelaborate lecture about the ways that
anti-blackness, uh, emerged through theIvy League institutions and produced
(22:42):
philosophers and professors whodeveloped theories that asserted that
black people had lower lung capacity.
That because our skulls were shapeddifferently than white people that
slavery was our rightful place.
There were other theories.
There's a study of Physionomy, um, thatwas developed by Orson Fowler and Samuel
(23:03):
Wells where they began to draw thesediagrams and they said, you can just
look at black people, um, and tell howinferior they are because of their, the
way that their nose is shaped, their eyes.
And these people were given the academicpositional notoriety to disseminate
and circulate these theories, notjust nationally, but internationally.
(23:27):
And they informed medical science.
They later led to the eugenical,um, movement that emerged during
the late 19th, early 20th centuries.
And I connect all of that to theeconomic, um, support that these
institutions and medical, uh, "experts,"that they received, as well as how
(23:52):
it informed the medical sciencesand the, the behavioral sciences.
And when, when you go and you begin toquestion just present basic questions
such as, well, what then is science?
What then is academic rigor?
What then is morality and, and whoare the authorities on these things?
(24:18):
Because if you tell me, well, this isevidence-based, I am going to cringe
when I hear that as someone thathas done this, this research in this
area, because we use that languageto qualify that this has been proven.
Well, I can show you a number of thingsthat have been proven, that have made
(24:42):
no sense, that have been harmful in,in creating that type of understanding
and, and roadmap, and then connectingit into today where in the medical
profession there are doctors thatstill assert that black people have,
um, in theories, hospitals that havepractices that won't administer certain
(25:05):
medication because black people areknown to have greater bone density.
That black people havea higher pain threshold.
I was just told by a doctor advocatingfor care for my mom that they didn't
feel that they needed to increase hermedication even though she was complaining
about her pain because she looked strong.
She looked strong.
Sam Fuqua (25:28):
That just happened?
Dante King (25:29):
Yes.
Sam Fuqua (25:30):
How do you advocate within, um, say the male organization
for, uh, I mean partly by I assumesharing this history with the folks
who are taking your classes, right?
Dante King (25:44):
Yes.
Sam Fuqua (25:44):
And, and then how do we get to say doctors like that one that was sort
of treating your mom, I guess, right?
I don't, I don't mean to be dismissive,but that was clearly a bizarre statement
coming from that particular physician.
Dante King (25:57):
Yeah.
And, again, this socializationruns so deep, so it's not going
to reach everyone, unfortunately.
I was teaching a class, this probablyis two years ago now, and I had a
medical doctor who had been practicingfor over 50 years, and he said, you
(26:17):
know, when he was a resident at DukeUniversity, this was back in the early
70s, he says, you know, I worked withthe state eugenical board, and we went
around and we located 16 year old blackvirgins and gave them hysterectomies.
Okay?
And so, we need to understandjust how deep this stuff is,
(26:44):
and it's a dire situation.
Um, I think in terms of the ways thatwe are collaborating at The Mayo Clinic,
and I'm so appreciative for this, wejust developed, uh, a course that's
going to be, uh, rolled out in September.
It's actually, the dates areSeptember 12th, 14th, 26th, 28th.
(27:06):
It's four hours each.
The course is called DevelopingAnti-Racist Leadership Competencies
and Practices for Health Equity.
And so it has to start at the top, andso we are targeting administrators, chief
nursing, uh, operators, medical directors,anyone that runs medical facilities,
(27:29):
um, or any type of organization whohas responsibility for the way that
culture, um, is, is functioningwithin that organizational context.
Um, because it, it has to bea priority of the leaders, uh,
because we know that culture is theresult of the activities of people.
(27:50):
And I detail that legal history andso it has to start from the top.
And that's, that's what we're doing.
Alexis Miles (27:56):
Bias capacity training.
That's one of the things Ibelieve you have expertise in.
Dante King (28:02):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (28:02):
So can you tell us what that is and can you tell people
how to access that kind of training?
Dante King (28:08):
Sure.
So my work now is more so rooted in themore, or focused on the more intense, I
guess, undergirding of, of bias, whichis really getting to the, the core of
our socialization, the anti-black bias,uh, and the infusion of that into laws
and policies that shape culture andwhite whiteness and white supremacy.
(28:31):
Looking at the spectrum, and then alsohow people are prioritized here in
America, um, by race and ethnicity.
The, the pr, the more proximity that oneor a group has to white culture, the more
privileges and benefits they experience.
They may not be awareof that, but it is true.
And the more proximity groupsof people have to black people,
(28:55):
the, the less privileged theyexperience here in America.
And so I've done bias capacity training,but that really doesn't get to the
root, um, to help people understand thehistorical and the perpetual aspects of
what I, I don't refer to it as necessarilyjust bias, I, I reject partially
(29:17):
that language because it's so subtle.
It's so subtle.
But I can tell people to understandwhat their role, how they are
participating in terrorism becausethis is a culture of terrorism.
And so I would first say, I wouldsay to all of those groups, everyone
listening to this, please go to mywebsite, which is danteking.com.
(29:40):
Please read my book, The 400Year Holocaust, but also a few
other books that I think people,um, should read are, uh, W.E.B.
Du Bois' Black Reconstruction in America.
If you haven't read that.
Carter G.
Woodson's, uh, Miseducation of the Negro.
Dr.
Joy Degruy's, uh, bookPost-Traumatic Slave Syndrome.
(30:03):
Dr.
Ibram Kendi's first, um, publication,Stamped from the Beginning,
and another book, um, by Dr.
Richard, uh, he, I'm not sure if he'sdoctor, but Richard Rothstein, who was
the, uh, author of The Color of Law.
Those are five reads I wouldhave people endeavor into.
Two more if you're an avidreader or fervent reader.
(30:25):
Um, one being N*gga Theory byUCLA professor Jody Armour, and
then the other being The NewJim Crow by Michelle Alexander.
Alexis Miles (30:36):
Dante, you have done an incredible amount of research and work.
Um, what is one thing that gives you hope?
Dante King (30:46):
So, I don't have hope.
I have an anger and a rage, a righteousanger and a righteous rage that drives me
to work and to strive and to lead change.
So, you know, I, I do these thingsbecause my anxiety and my frustration,
(31:07):
um, they drive me, and I've had tolearn how to redirect it because I was
at the point of suicide and homicidewhen I decided to write this book.
And there were a few wonderful blackwomen who I got in touch with, um,
psychologists and psychiatrists whohelped me to understand my racial
(31:30):
trauma because I was ready to check out.
And so I don't have hope, but I wakeup every day knowing that I have to,
with a drive, knowing that I haveto do something to try and shift
conditions for people who look like me.
Sam Fuqua (31:47):
Dante King, thank you for speaking with us and our listeners.
Dante King (31:50):
Thank you.
Alexis Miles (31:51):
It's a real pleasure.
Thank you.
Dante King (31:53):
Thank you so much.
Sam Fuqua (31:56):
Dante King is the author of The 400 Year Holocaust
America's Legal, Psychopathic, andSociopathic Black Genocide - and The
Revolt Against Critical Race Theory.
He's also a human resources professionaland has taught at the University
of California, San Francisco andwill soon be guest faculty at The
(32:18):
Mayo Clinic School of Medicine.
You can find out more athis website, danteking.com.
The Sideways team attended the 2023 WhitePrivilege Conference, and our conversation
with Dante King is the first of severalinterviews recorded at the White Privilege
Conference that we look forward tosharing with you in the coming months.
(32:51):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
(33:11):
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
(33:31):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(33:53):
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
When we as black and brown people begin to emote or express the
ways that we've been aggressed in,uh, marginalized, in this society,
there's resentment and hostility.
In defensiveness, no one wantsto hear it because it, it's not
aligned with the white Americanor the American value system.
Sam Fuqua (00:31):
That's Dante King, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(00:52):
In this episode, we talk with Dante Kingabout the roots of racism in America.
Dante King is the author of The400 Year Holocaust: White America's
Legal, Psychopathic and SociopathicBlack Genocide - and the Revolt
Against Critical Race Theory.
(01:12):
He is also a human resources professionaland has taught at the University
of California, San Francisco, andwill soon be guest faculty at the
Mayo Clinic School of Medicine.
We spoke with Dante King inApril at the 2023 White Privilege
Conference in Mesa, Arizona.
(01:33):
I am Sam Fuqua, co-host ofthe program with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:37):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:38):
And we're so pleased to have Dante King join us for this episode.
Welcome.
Dante King (01:43):
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (01:44):
Uh, we're speaking at the White Privilege Conference, uh, here in Arizona.
What brought you to the conferenceand what are you, what are
you taking away from this one?
Dante King (01:53):
So there are so many things.
Uh, the first is I recently publisheda book entitled The 400 Year Holocaust:
White America's Legal, Psychopathic,and Sociopathic Black Genocide - and
The Revolt Against Critical Race Theory.
And so, um, in much of my work,I've been out on the road here
lately doing a lot of promotingof the book, but also just making
(02:18):
connections with other practitionerswho are all working in this space.
Uh, I think, what I'm taking away fromhere is just a bit of rejuvenation because
it's just, it's been reaffirming and alsofulfilling to be around people who are
doing their own personal, internal work.
(02:39):
Um, and so my work, as I say all thetime is, is life liberatory work.
I'm not afforded the opportunitymuch to go to conferences like this.
Most conferences I go to feel like work.
Um, and this hasn't felt that way much.
Sam Fuqua (03:00):
The subtitle of the book has some powerful words, psychopathic,
sociopathic, um, that some mightsay that's, that's a really hard
language to use, and maybe I, I resistthat, or that doesn't draw me in,
but clearly you've made a consciouschoice to, to call it out in that way.
(03:21):
Why?
Dante King (03:22):
For sure.
Um, when I begin to examine the legalhistory of this country and begin to
draw through line, uh, in the ways,or in the institution of legality
specifically, of the ways that theBritish and then white people created
laws that permitted and, uh, promoted,facilitated the murders of black people.
(03:48):
And specifically within the first twocenturies, the language is very stark.
It's extremely clear.
The, the motivations are there.
Um, and I'll give a few examples of that.
Uh, but I kept repeatingto myself, this is insane.
This is insane.
I can't believe this.
This is diabolical.
I had never seen certain things before.
(04:10):
And then I located The PsychopathicRacial Personality by Dr.
Bobby Wright in what, whichwas written in the 1970s.
And he says very fervently intheir relationship with the black
race whites are psychopaths.
And I said, wow, that's it.
(04:31):
And so I'll give a few examples.
Um, just, I'm gonna quotefrom a few court cases.
One being an 1855, uh, murdercase concerning a young
girl by the name of Celia.
This was in Missouri.
And she had been raped repeatedlyby her master Robert Newsom, and
she had bore two children andwas pregnant with the third one.
(04:54):
And she can, consistently wentto his daughters to seek help.
She went to others in thecommunity to ask them to, uh,
help her stop him from raping her.
And she was sick throughthis third pregnancy.
And so he continued to rape her.
So she ended up murdering him.
And when the case went to court,the judge gave this instruction
(05:15):
to the jury, basically.
If Newsom was in the habit of havingintercourse with the defendant who was
his slave and went to her cabin on thenight he was killed to have intercourse
with her or for any other purpose,and while he was standing in the floor
talking to her and she struck him withthe stick, which was a dangerous weapon,
(05:37):
and knocked him down and struck him againafter he fell and killed him by either
blow, it is murder in the first degree.
So I'm gonna restate this.
So if New Newsom was in the habit ofraping her, and he went to her cabin on
that night to rape her, and she foughtback and resisted and, and killed him,
then it's murder in the, the first degree.
And so they had her hanged.
Um, and so another case bythe Mississippi Supreme Court.
(06:02):
In 1859, the Mississippi SupremeCourt ruled that a nine year old
black child that had been raped by ablack male slave, that it wasn't rape.
And what they said was, the crimeof rape does not exist in this
state between African slaves.
Our laws recognize no maritalstatus as between slaves.
Their sexual intercourse is leftto be regulated by their owners.
(06:26):
The regulations of law as to thewhite race on the subject of sexual
intercourse, do not and cannot, forobvious reasons, apply to slaves.
Their intercourse is promiscuous in theviolation of a female slave by a male
slave would be a mere assault and battery.
And so you move forward to 1918.
You've got the Florida SupremeCourt ruling in Dallas v.
(06:48):
State in 1918 that black women can't beraped because they're immoral, and what
they say is what has been said by someof our courts about an unchained female
being a comparatively rare exception isno doubt true where the population is
composed largely of the Caucasian race.
But we would blind ourselves toactual conditions if we adopted
(07:10):
this rule where another race thatis largely immoral constitutes an
appreciable part of the population.
And so as a Black American being on theother end, the receiving end of this, I
judge it and assess it as psychopathic.
Whites may not.
Asians may not.
No other group or personhas to judge it that way.
(07:31):
But I really believe in the liberatorypractice of being able to name my
experience and the experience of mypeople in the ways that are useful and
clear to me that give me validation.
And so I, um, in looking at the, thedefinitions, the standard definitions
(07:51):
of sociopathy and psychopathy, I said,wow, this is exactly what this is.
Sam Fuqua (07:57):
And that obviously is, is gruesome to hear, but
it's in the public record.
And I think a, as we sort of generallyknow about mistreatment of, uh,
enslaved people, it's important thatwe, we get the details sometimes
as hard as they are to hear.
Dante King (08:18):
For sure.
And I also wanna, um, just clarifythe last case I quoted was 1918.
That's 53 years after slavery ended.
And so the Florida Supreme Courtis ruling that black women are
immoral and can't be raped.
Alexis Miles (08:36):
And you, you talk about through line.
So can you show us that throughline from these laws to current
behavior, current policies, et cetera?
Dante King (08:47):
Absolutely.
Um, I'll give one example.
So I just gave those three, right?
Those cases, um, span a periodof roughly what, 60, 70 years.
That's going out of the mid 19thcentury into the early 20th century.
But if we go back, there are laws such asthe Casual Killing Act of 1669, um, which
(09:10):
said, "Whereas the only law enforced forthe punishment of refractory servants
resisting their master, mistress oroverseer cannot be inflicted upon Negroes
nor the obstinacy of many of them besuppressed by other than violent means.
Be it enacted and declared by this grandassembly, if any slave resists his master
(09:33):
or other by his master's order correctinghim and by the extremity of the correction
should happen to die, that his deathshould not be accounted a felony, but
the master or the other person appointedby the master to punish him be acquitted
from molestation since it cannot bepresumed that premeditated malice, which
alone makes murder a felony, shouldinduce any man to destroy his own estate.
(09:56):
And so they're giving, in a veryalacritous manner, the permission and
authority for any person to just murderblack people without consequence.
It's not accounted a felony.
That's followed up by laws in1672, and a law in 1680, an act
preventing negro insurrections.
(10:16):
These laws are published, uh,in, in the colony records.
They're also published atchurches throughout this time.
That was written into the law thatthey would be published at the
parish churches every six months.
And so when you examine this historydecade by decade, and I'm talking, I
give, roughly, I would say 10 to 15examples, decade by decade, a combination
(10:41):
of colonial level laws and then statelevel laws once we transition into the
United States, coupled with court casesat the local, state, and federal level,
um, and you get to, for example, the20th century and you have the Supreme
Court ruling of 1927, the Buck v.
Bell ruling, where they decided thatcompulsory sterilization of the unfit and
(11:06):
undesirable population did not violate thedue process clause in the 14th Amendment.
And then the Corgan v.
Buckley, Euclid v.
Ambler, they're using scientific academictheory to say we're going to subjugate
blacks and put them in, uh, neighborhoodsthat are separate from white people
because they're developmentally inferior.
(11:29):
They're morally incapable ofdeveloping, uh, in that manner.
And so you have all of theserationalizations that are rooted in
what I define as not just racism orwhite racism, it's anti-blackness.
And so the laws are riddledwith anti-blackness.
It's not just we're going to exclude,but we're going to actually do
(11:51):
harm to you, and that's a differentlevel of a maniacal situation.
Sam Fuqua (12:01):
And to use, uh, science or, you know, bogus
science, uh, to somehow justify.
What is that about?
Dante King (12:11):
Sociopathy is how I defined it, because there is an obsession and a
compulsion that people possess, from how Iread it, that drives them to find whatever
reason necessary to superiorize themselvesand create a, a very inferior orientation.
(12:34):
And one of the things I appreciateabout Toni Morrison's work, and I quote
her in here, an interview that shegave, and she said it very succinctly,
"If you can only be tall becausesomeone else is on their knees, then
you have a very serious problem."
And she said at the time, and Ibelieve that white people have a very,
very serious problem, and they needto figure out what to do about it.
(12:57):
And so if you go back and you investigatehow whiteness emerged, it actually
emerged initially as a Christian nation.
They're using the languageChristian, Christian, Christian.
It's not until they begin to convertcertain members from, uh, Indian
bands as they're noted in the,the law, as well as, uh, Negroes.
(13:18):
Once they start converting them intothe Christian faith in, in or around
the mid 17th century, they need to findanother way to distinguish themselves.
And so it's no longer Englishfreeborn Christian, it's white.
And so white, the white racein white America develops as
a terrorist organization, um,on principles of terrorism.
(13:40):
And we have to understand thenthat the, the intentionality behind
white racism and anti-blackness,this, this was not happenstance.
It was legal, it was moral, violence,anti-black violence sat at the core of
white morality, of Christian morality.
(14:00):
Um, it was an economicand political pursuit.
It's all of these things.
Alexis Miles (14:06):
So a lot of what you're talking about would be
understood if people understoodCRT - critical race theory.
Can you talk about criticalrace theory and what that means?
I know people hear the term a lot, but alot of people don't know what it means.
Dante King (14:22):
Right.
So critical race theory is theidea that race informs people's
realities or has informed people'srealities, and it's not a theory.
It's actually critical race realitybecause white men created laws, ruled in
(14:43):
cases, which I just shared some examplesabout, of, of, and they decided the fate
of people, and they decided to use theirauthority and position to do harm to
people, and specifically black people.
Economic deprivation, education,educational violence, um, uh, being
(15:07):
in total control of our experience,our existence here as African people.
As I say in my book, black people,black American people don't know a
reality outside of white racial control.
And so that's not a theory,that's fact and it's a reality.
Everything I know has been definedand controlled and facilitated
(15:33):
through white domination.
And that's true for my mother, my,and father and grandparents, everyone.
If you are a black American with a, ahistory here, uh, and a lineage that
goes back to the antebellum period,that is not true for other groups.
We as African American people arethe creation of white people and
(15:54):
they've controlled everything aboutus, and so therefore, we have to
look to them if we want to be a partof their organizations, if we want
to advance in their organizations.
If we go against this, uh, the context ina way that is not permitted and it makes
(16:15):
the wrong people uncomfortable, we can be,um, our personhood, our livelihood can be
diminished and affected and impacted in away where we're no longer able to survive.
And so Martin Luther, um, not MartinLuther King, but Malcolm X, he gave
an interview at UC Berkeley in 1963,and he says, when you're in your own
(16:36):
nation, under your own court system,under your own, uh, institutions,
you're in a position to get justice.
But when you're in another man'scountry, in another man's land,
under another man's court system,you have to look to that other man
for justice and you'll never get it.
And he followed it up with sayingin Negroes are the authority
(16:58):
on that here in America.
Alexis Miles (17:01):
I'd like to drive a point home.
Everything you're saying isnot your personal opinion.
This is documented.
Dante King (17:08):
Which is why I used the, the approach that I do because if
you and Sam and I sit here and wehave a discussion around these laws
and what they are, we're, we're notgonna argue, oh, this didn't happen.
We're going to say, wow,this is interesting.
(17:30):
Let, let's discuss what theimpacts of this were, because we
can't debate that it happened.
As Sam mentioned earlier,it's in the public record.
Alexis Miles (17:39):
So what are your feelings about the attempts, and not only the
attempts, but the actual implementationof laws that critical race reality,
I think as you correctly refer toit, should not be taught in schools?
Dante King (17:54):
Well, it's to protect white comfort.
It's to protect white domination.
It's to protect, it is toprotect white racial control.
And one of the things that I beginto understand through my study is
that white people have never hadto be reflective or accountable
when it comes to people of color.
(18:14):
And so how dare you try to compelme to do that as a white person?
There's no inherent value in doinganything of that, that nature.
It does not align with the whitevalue system, with the white
cultural value system, which isrooted in power and control through
(18:37):
institutional design, right?
Economics, educational, like itdoes not serve me in any way.
I don't need to be in relationshipwith you, uh, inferior person.
I just finished an interviewwith Robin DiAngelo.
We did a joint interview together.
(18:58):
Um, and one of the things she said towardthe end, she looked me and the interviewer
in the eye, who was a black woman, and shesays, "I want you to take something in.
I was told I was the, the message thatI received about people of color," she
says, "I was never meant to love you.
(19:18):
I was never meant to love you.
In fact, I was told as a whitewoman that being in relationship
with you, having anything to dowith a person of color actually
lessened my value as a white person.
And so there's no compelling factor.
Unless one becomes or, or worksthrough processes to become in
(19:41):
touch, uh, or connect with theirhumanity and the humanity of others."
But again, Dr.
Bobby Wright, he says thatwhite people have no morality
where race is the variable.
And I am inclined to agree with that.
I've lived it.
I've experienced it.
I've now researched it and understand why.
You know, following laws and going bythe book, which what the are is what
(20:05):
these laws required white people todo, it erased their moral compass.
You, you cannot be socialized to commitviolence and murder and be allowed
to rape, rape, rape and, and then beconnected in, into your own humanity
in a way that compels you to feel.
One would have to turn all of that off.
(20:27):
And so we look around today and whenwe as black and brown people begin to
emote or express the ways that we've beenaggressed in, in a, uh, marginalized,
in this society, there's resentmentand hostility and defensiveness.
No one wants to hear it becauseit, it's not aligned with the white
(20:51):
American or the American value system.
Alexis Miles (20:55):
So the cost then would be the cost of humanity.
One's own humanity.
Dante King (21:01):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (21:01):
So the cost to white people is the cost of
their own humanity in some ways.
Dante King (21:05):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (21:06):
So it's not a freebie.
Dante King (21:07):
No.
No.
And I appreciate, there, there's this,um, documentary called Slave Catchers
and Slave Resistors, and there's a,um, white professor, I, I forget his
name, he's from Duke University though,but he talks about how in order to
integrate into these colonies back inthe 17th, uh, and 18th centuries, he
(21:30):
says, these white people, he says, youhave to have made a deal with the devil.
Like you, you had to just become soulless.
Sam Fuqua (21:41):
Can you talk a little bit about another facet of, of your
work, your life as an educator forone of the elite medical institutions
in this country, The Mayo Clinic.
How did you navigate some of what we'vebeen talking about in that context?
Dante King (21:57):
This is great.
So I actually, um, have been workingwith them for about a year now.
And, but I just received, um, anacademic appointment as an assistant
professor of medical education inThe Mayo Clinic School of Medicine.
And how we came together, how thiscollaboration emerged was that several of
(22:19):
them, I was serving as guest faculty atUCSF, another med, medical school and some
high level people there, uh, at The MayoClinic took a course that I teach there.
Within that course, I do a veryelaborate lecture about the ways that
anti-blackness, uh, emerged through theIvy League institutions and produced
(22:42):
philosophers and professors whodeveloped theories that asserted that
black people had lower lung capacity.
That because our skulls were shapeddifferently than white people that
slavery was our rightful place.
There were other theories.
There's a study of Physionomy, um, thatwas developed by Orson Fowler and Samuel
(23:03):
Wells where they began to draw thesediagrams and they said, you can just
look at black people, um, and tell howinferior they are because of their, the
way that their nose is shaped, their eyes.
And these people were given the academicpositional notoriety to disseminate
and circulate these theories, notjust nationally, but internationally.
(23:27):
And they informed medical science.
They later led to the eugenical,um, movement that emerged during
the late 19th, early 20th centuries.
And I connect all of that to theeconomic, um, support that these
institutions and medical, uh, "experts,"that they received, as well as how
(23:52):
it informed the medical sciencesand the, the behavioral sciences.
And when, when you go and you begin toquestion just present basic questions
such as, well, what then is science?
What then is academic rigor?
What then is morality and, and whoare the authorities on these things?
(24:18):
Because if you tell me, well, this isevidence-based, I am going to cringe
when I hear that as someone thathas done this, this research in this
area, because we use that languageto qualify that this has been proven.
Well, I can show you a number of thingsthat have been proven, that have made
(24:42):
no sense, that have been harmful in,in creating that type of understanding
and, and roadmap, and then connectingit into today where in the medical
profession there are doctors thatstill assert that black people have,
um, in theories, hospitals that havepractices that won't administer certain
(25:05):
medication because black people areknown to have greater bone density.
That black people havea higher pain threshold.
I was just told by a doctor advocatingfor care for my mom that they didn't
feel that they needed to increase hermedication even though she was complaining
about her pain because she looked strong.
She looked strong.
Sam Fuqua (25:28):
That just happened?
Dante King (25:29):
Yes.
Sam Fuqua (25:30):
How do you advocate within, um, say the male organization
for, uh, I mean partly by I assumesharing this history with the folks
who are taking your classes, right?
Dante King (25:44):
Yes.
Sam Fuqua (25:44):
And, and then how do we get to say doctors like that one that was sort
of treating your mom, I guess, right?
I don't, I don't mean to be dismissive,but that was clearly a bizarre statement
coming from that particular physician.
Dante King (25:57):
Yeah.
And, again, this socializationruns so deep, so it's not going
to reach everyone, unfortunately.
I was teaching a class, this probablyis two years ago now, and I had a
medical doctor who had been practicingfor over 50 years, and he said, you
(26:17):
know, when he was a resident at DukeUniversity, this was back in the early
70s, he says, you know, I worked withthe state eugenical board, and we went
around and we located 16 year old blackvirgins and gave them hysterectomies.
Okay?
And so, we need to understandjust how deep this stuff is,
(26:44):
and it's a dire situation.
Um, I think in terms of the ways thatwe are collaborating at The Mayo Clinic,
and I'm so appreciative for this, wejust developed, uh, a course that's
going to be, uh, rolled out in September.
It's actually, the dates areSeptember 12th, 14th, 26th, 28th.
(27:06):
It's four hours each.
The course is called DevelopingAnti-Racist Leadership Competencies
and Practices for Health Equity.
And so it has to start at the top, andso we are targeting administrators, chief
nursing, uh, operators, medical directors,anyone that runs medical facilities,
(27:29):
um, or any type of organization whohas responsibility for the way that
culture, um, is, is functioningwithin that organizational context.
Um, because it, it has to bea priority of the leaders, uh,
because we know that culture is theresult of the activities of people.
(27:50):
And I detail that legal history andso it has to start from the top.
And that's, that's what we're doing.
Alexis Miles (27:56):
Bias capacity training.
That's one of the things Ibelieve you have expertise in.
Dante King (28:02):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (28:02):
So can you tell us what that is and can you tell people
how to access that kind of training?
Dante King (28:08):
Sure.
So my work now is more so rooted in themore, or focused on the more intense, I
guess, undergirding of, of bias, whichis really getting to the, the core of
our socialization, the anti-black bias,uh, and the infusion of that into laws
and policies that shape culture andwhite whiteness and white supremacy.
(28:31):
Looking at the spectrum, and then alsohow people are prioritized here in
America, um, by race and ethnicity.
The, the pr, the more proximity that oneor a group has to white culture, the more
privileges and benefits they experience.
They may not be awareof that, but it is true.
And the more proximity groupsof people have to black people,
(28:55):
the, the less privileged theyexperience here in America.
And so I've done bias capacity training,but that really doesn't get to the
root, um, to help people understand thehistorical and the perpetual aspects of
what I, I don't refer to it as necessarilyjust bias, I, I reject partially
(29:17):
that language because it's so subtle.
It's so subtle.
But I can tell people to understandwhat their role, how they are
participating in terrorism becausethis is a culture of terrorism.
And so I would first say, I wouldsay to all of those groups, everyone
listening to this, please go to mywebsite, which is danteking.com.
(29:40):
Please read my book, The 400Year Holocaust, but also a few
other books that I think people,um, should read are, uh, W.E.B.
Du Bois' Black Reconstruction in America.
If you haven't read that.
Carter G.
Woodson's, uh, Miseducation of the Negro.
Dr.
Joy Degruy's, uh, bookPost-Traumatic Slave Syndrome.
(30:03):
Dr.
Ibram Kendi's first, um, publication,Stamped from the Beginning,
and another book, um, by Dr.
Richard, uh, he, I'm not sure if he'sdoctor, but Richard Rothstein, who was
the, uh, author of The Color of Law.
Those are five reads I wouldhave people endeavor into.
Two more if you're an avidreader or fervent reader.
(30:25):
Um, one being N*gga Theory byUCLA professor Jody Armour, and
then the other being The NewJim Crow by Michelle Alexander.
Alexis Miles (30:36):
Dante, you have done an incredible amount of research and work.
Um, what is one thing that gives you hope?
Dante King (30:46):
So, I don't have hope.
I have an anger and a rage, a righteousanger and a righteous rage that drives me
to work and to strive and to lead change.
So, you know, I, I do these thingsbecause my anxiety and my frustration,
(31:07):
um, they drive me, and I've had tolearn how to redirect it because I was
at the point of suicide and homicidewhen I decided to write this book.
And there were a few wonderful blackwomen who I got in touch with, um,
psychologists and psychiatrists whohelped me to understand my racial
(31:30):
trauma because I was ready to check out.
And so I don't have hope, but I wakeup every day knowing that I have to,
with a drive, knowing that I haveto do something to try and shift
conditions for people who look like me.
Sam Fuqua (31:47):
Dante King, thank you for speaking with us and our listeners.
Dante King (31:50):
Thank you.
Alexis Miles (31:51):
It's a real pleasure.
Thank you.
Dante King (31:53):
Thank you so much.
Sam Fuqua (31:56):
Dante King is the author of The 400 Year Holocaust
America's Legal, Psychopathic, andSociopathic Black Genocide - and The
Revolt Against Critical Race Theory.
He's also a human resources professionaland has taught at the University
of California, San Francisco andwill soon be guest faculty at The
(32:18):
Mayo Clinic School of Medicine.
You can find out more athis website, danteking.com.
The Sideways team attended the 2023 WhitePrivilege Conference, and our conversation
with Dante King is the first of severalinterviews recorded at the White Privilege
Conference that we look forward tosharing with you in the coming months.
(32:51):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on ourguests and links to more conflict
resolution resources at the website.
(33:11):
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
(33:31):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(33:53):
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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