A Girl and A Guy Chat with Paige Troxell and Ian Carlos Crawford

We are so excited to sit down with documentarian and Buffy fan Paige Troxell and host of Slayfest98, Ian Carlos Crawford. In this episode, we celebrate the 25th anniversary of season 3 by discussing plot points that occurred in season 3 that impacted the rest of the season.

 

Spoiler alert: the entire “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” series will be discussed. There are also mentions of events from “Angel” and “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” comics seasons 8-12. 

This episode was produced by Kate Balzer and Charles Swint. Edited by Jeremy Williams. 

 

Theme song

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Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Hey,
everyone.
Welcome to A Girl,
A Guy and A Buffy Podcast.
This is your co-host Kate Balzer and I'm Charles and we're super excited for today's episode.
We have a very,
very special episode.
Um We are focusing on the 20th 25th anniversary of season three and how there are so many events in season three that really have an impact on the rest of the series when you put them all together.

(00:35):
And as part of this special episode,
we have two very,
very special guests joining us as well.
Yes,
we felt like we couldn't do this alone because it was just too much to talk about.
Um And we wanted to get um some folks in on the discussion and so we have with us uh Paige Troxell who is a Buffy fan and a documentarian,

(00:57):
uh who has a documentary out now called Fred Heads.
Um Who is here to join us.
Hi,
Paige,
how are you?
Good.
I feel so honored.
How are you guys doing?
I'm so excited.
We're good.
We're good.
We're so excited to have you here.
Um And then we also have Ian Crawford from Slayer Fest 98 How are you?

(01:18):
Hi,
thank you for having me.
I,
I am very honored that page and I get to be the first guest on your podcast.
Yes,
we've never had a guest before.
So it's like I was like,
make sure everything's tidy.
Like,
I'm sorry,
we don't have a cheese plate though.
So I feel paige.
Let's go.
They didn't put out for no cheese.

(01:40):
There's no s sorry.
Um,
we do have some bad beer if you want it.
I wouldn't mind clubbing an X over the head.
You know,
it'd be ok with me.
Right.
Fire bad tree pretty.
It's all,
that's about all I can do this week.
Fire.

(02:03):
Oh my goodness.
Um So yeah.
Uh so we have been,
so I know uh on Slayer Fest 98 you all have been sort of a lot,
you know,
chronicling that's the word,
uh the 25th anniversary and I think everyone's been sort of talking about,
uh,
about that.
What's been,
what's been your experience like with that?
How's that been for you?

(02:24):
Um I will say covering it this,
we went through it once already and just been like for the Patreon covering like everything as it turns 25.
Um I,
this is the first time I've encountered people who don't like season three.
which is wild to me because I feel like it's like,
what,
like it five is my favorite,

(02:45):
but I think three is the best.
Like I think three doesn't have a low point at all.
And five while it's my favorite,
little bit in the middle,
it gets like,
you know,
um,
but yeah,
this is the first time I've encountered that and I will say some people,
um,
Trevor Carley,
who does another Buffy podcast and does all these like amazing Lego animations.
Him and his co-host Kirsten Kri Kristen came on and they actually had some pretty valid points.

(03:12):
Like I could understand they were like,
well,
faith is so unbalanced in the season.
Like sometimes she's there and then sometimes she's gone for three episodes and we don't like,
there's no like consistency with her appearing.
Um And I actually,
I,
I could,
I don't think that takes away from the season,
but I did understand that critique.
I was like,
that's true.
And like they said that they were like on for like beauty and the beast,

(03:36):
right?
So that's like the beginning.
And now I've been like,
so hyper aware of the fact that that's kind of true.
Like Buffy and faith will like,
have an argument or a fight and then they'll,
she'll be gone for two episodes and then they're like,
back to normal and cool,
then they'll have another fight.
It's very up and down.
But I also do feel like that isn't not like teenage friendships,

(03:56):
right?
Like when you're a teenager,
sometimes it's just like,
oh,
we're not friends anymore.
And then it's like,
oh,
we're best friends.
You know what I mean?
I do feel like that isn't too far from the way friendships go when you're a teen.
Yeah.
I wonder how much of that too had to do with,
um,
Eliza herself just,
and her age because she was younger when she was on there.
And so,
like,
her availability to be on the show was probably limited too.

(04:19):
But I can see where that messes with consistency though.
Yeah,
I looked it up and that's actually like the writers have said that that's why she was like,
I feel like I always heard that she got emancipated,
like,
legally emancipated so she could work.
But apparently that wasn't till like the end of the season when she is in like all of the episodes and I guess that's why.
Um So,

(04:39):
yeah,
and like,
I don't know,
like I'm a little bit more forgiving of that,
right?
Because it's like,
well,
just like they legally could not use her in more scenes.
So,
Paige,
what's been your experience here?
When's the last time you rewatched?
Season three?
Me?
Oh,
man.
So season I used to joke that like season three was my favorite season.
I would be like,

(04:59):
this is my favorite season.
Nothing will ever change this.
But like Ian says season five,
as I've gotten older,
season five is my favorite,
but season three is a perfect season.
It's the one I know the most.
It's the one that I have watched the most.
Um,
and I recently,
like,
three months ago,
did another deep dive,
another re-watch on it.
And so it was,
it was fairly recent that I watched it and I'm currently doing another deep dive.

(05:23):
I watch it every,
I'm obsessed with the show.
I watch it every couple of months.
Um,
and I'm on season two now,
so I'm getting ready to,
like,
fall into season three.
00.
So,
Kate,
what about you?
What's your,
what's your overall view of season three?
Yeah.
Um,
I,
I love season three.
I,
it probably used to be my favorite.

(05:44):
And then,
like,
you guys,
season five is my favorite.
Um,
but they're kind of on par,
like,
they go neck and neck,
like,
back and forth on which ones my thing.
And I actually felt this way when I watched the season originally,
like when it aired on the WB,
I had an issue with the inconsistency of the Buffy Angel relationship.

(06:05):
Literally to the point where I was like,
did I miss an episode?
I was like,
because it would be like,
she'd tell him in one episode.
No,
we're done and then,
like,
two episodes later they're like,
making out and I was like,
what did I miss?
And it was like,
nothing was ever said there wasn't even a conversation,
like,
oh,
I can't stay away from you.
Like,
all I needed was a line until they break up.

(06:26):
You are right until they break up.
That's like the line where it's like,
oh,
ok.
Now they're not together,
but were they officially dating again?
Right.
Did they ever actually get back?
Like,
when was the official getting back together?
Right.
But it is,
it is a great season.
And I think,
yeah,
I'm excited to talk about it and that was sort of the impetus for this conversation is I just recently did a,

(06:49):
an entire series re-watch,
um,
in prep for starting this podcast and I had not done a re-watch in a very long time.
And I was like,
oh,
my gosh,
there are so many things that happened in season three that,
you know,
some,
I know that were planned but some,
I'm sure weren't,
they just ended up building off of it,

(07:09):
but like that completely affect the rest of the series.
And it's kind of crazy when you,
like,
start making the list,
right.
And we did make a list.
We did make that good Scooby do.
Um,
we like to make a list.
Yeah.
Season three for me was,
I think it's,
I don't know,
it still holds as my favorite,

(07:30):
I think.
Um,
season five.
I love season five.
but I i it's the,
it's really kind of the last time we get the core together that we have all of them together.
Um,
the thing that sort of is the heart of the show and we,
I think we sort of lose that after,
um,
after everyone goes their separate ways.
But I just think it's,
and it's so,

(07:52):
it's so much fun.
It's just,
it's just one thing after the other and it is,
it is,
it is truly like your senior year and it's like all the fun,
all the crazy,
all the,
like wild shenanigans and you know,
that you want out of a senior year.
Um,
you know,
including a senior Skip Day with bad girls and you're just like,

(08:13):
I'm out of here,
like I'm hopping out the window and let's go.
Um So yeah,
I just,
I really,
I really love season three.
It's,
I would say that it still holds as my favorite.
You know,
I think for season three with me that it was such a pivotal,
pivotal season in this series.
But the reason why for me for five is there's just a little bit more of a maturity and five and I feel like I see that differently.

(08:39):
I,
I like Buffy's growth a lot in season five.
It ties back to season three a lot too,
but I really like her growth and her discovering really who she is and having to,
to take charge in season five.
I'm not so much of a fan of season six,
but when it comes to the season seven,
she really is full force 100% running the show.

(09:00):
And I think a lot of that did start in season three and in season three to me,
like,
doesn't really have a bad episode except for the Zeppo.
I'm not a fan of the Zeppo,
but,
like,
it doesn't really have a bad episode and I think that's why it's like,
to me it's deemed like,
the perfect season.
It's just,
it's the one that the fans seem to think is the favorite as well.

(09:21):
Any time I do like,
a poll on my tiktok or anything,
like that's what they're immediately gravitating towards is season three.
And I have to agree.
It's,
it's,
it's one of the best seasons for sure.
Yeah,
I,
I think that's true.
And that's so off of what you said,
Paige,
I fully agree with you that,
like,
by season seven,
that's when she's in charge and when a lot of people,
you know,
season seven is very polarizing,

(09:42):
right?
So,
is season six,
but season seven is like,
I didn't realize how many people really hate season seven till I started covering it.
Like I had co-host be,
like,
drop out because they were like,
oh,
no,
I hate that season.
I don't want to talk about it and I was like,
oh,
really?
Um,
I was like,
wild for me.
I season six is not my favorite,
but it's like,
I just feel like there's no bad season of Buffy,

(10:04):
like for me.
And I do feel like what you said,
that's why for me it's earned that.
Buffy is fully in charge.
We don't need the character development anymore because we've done the character development.
Um And yeah,
I do think it's like a build up and I think this season as well,
it's almost like this is when they started planning because I do feel like you're right about Buffy and I do feel like it also is starting Willow's story as well,

(10:29):
kind of where like Doppel Gangland kind of sets up everything that she does moving forward with like magic and like,
feeling underestimated.
Um So,
yeah,
II I agree with you.
Yeah,
Buffy and Willow and like,
you know,
I think by like,
not season three,
but like five Willow becomes one of the com like almost a co main character,

(10:50):
like right below Buffy.
Um And I do think those,
it's like,
nice seeing those characters develop and yeah,
I,
I love season three,
season five.
I just,
it's,
I mean,
this might be more bleak.
It's like they have more like adult,
like trauma problems,
not like metaphor problems,
you know,
and like,
we're all adults.
So it's like,

(11:10):
oh,
I can kind of relate to but like bleach stuff,
you know,
I think the thing with Willow,
like that to get too off topic.
But the thing with Willow,
how you're talking about how she's kind of like the cole,
I really see that.
And I,
when I look at Willow as,
as who she is towards the end of the series,
I feel like she is more powerful than anybody on the show.

(11:30):
But the problem is that she hasn't had the,
the knowledge behind it as to where Buffy has had all the experience to get to where she's at.
And that's why she can control the power and maintain the power.
But willow,
it was like,
almost overnight for her,
she was practicing and having fun and then once,
you know,
Tara was gone,
that was it.
She just absorbed the dark arts completely.

(11:52):
And so it took over her so she can't control the power.
But I feel like she is probably in the Buffy verse,
probably the most powerful character in the Buffy verse.
Yeah,
for sure.
And so like in that it,
even that con of that of Willow and her power,
I think that Giles does such a disservice to her.
I know he's trying to protect her from,

(12:14):
you know,
using magics because even in the very beginning of season three,
when he tells,
uh Buffy that he's trying to do the spell to make sure that Accola has been bound.
So that Buffy like has that cathartic moment about actually telling what really happened and I cry so much.
Right?
It's such,
it's such a good moment and she and Willow was so anxious to help.

(12:36):
She's like,
I wanna help and I've been studying these things and I think Charles does Willow such a disservice to not only be Buffy's Watcher,
but be Willows as well,
he more than anybody knows what it's like when you have black magics unchecked.
And so why not guide her along the way so that it doesn't become,

(12:57):
you know,
this problem and it doesn't become an addiction and because she keeps getting told no,
it's like,
well,
I'm gonna do it anyway.
So look at that and then it leads to so many more problems.
So I blame,
I kind of blame Giles for Willow's past.
Yeah.
It's kind of shocking actually.
Based on his experience,
he didn't have to be the one to teach her.

(13:17):
But the fact that he didn't find someone for her is,
is kind of crazy.
I feel like,
so we talked about this a little bit.
I forget I wanna credit who said it because it was not me.
So I just,
I don't remember who said it on the podcast,
but someone that was not me said that Giles loves Willow almost the way he loves Buffy where like he does like he doesn't really like the rest of the Scooby.

(13:41):
He can't stand Xander.
Um He like gets annoyed by Cordelia.
Anya.
It's like he begrudgingly accepts her.
But I do think Willow,
he sees as a daughter and I think he didn't want her to get into the magic and he like didn't know how powerful she was.
So to him,
it's like if I just keep not letting her get into it,
we won't get to where we get in season six.

(14:02):
But unfortunately that was incorrect.
Um,
so I do think it's like,
because he loves her so much and she's the only one that he does.
It's like she's like a daughter figure,
but she doesn't have like the slayer powers.
Right.
So,
I think anymore he sees it as like she's dabbling in magic and that can be dangerous,
which,
like,
they kind of heavy handed then,

(14:23):
like,
right.
Like,
how many times does Oz say that to her?
And it's like,
man,
right.
But nothing bad has happened yet.
So let's stop saying except all the times that they do,
I think too Willow is always like the studious good girl.
So I think he also doesn't think she's gonna spiral like that until she actually does.
Um,
even with all the mistakes she makes along the way,

(14:44):
um,
it never,
none of them really kind of think of it as leading to a bigger pattern.
They just see it as like,
01 offs that Willow does,
right.
So what,
so to give more,
a little bit more feel around it?
What,
what is sort of one of the moments that you think is the most impactful?

(15:06):
Like what's,
what's a moment or a storyline from season three that you think impacts the rest of the series the most?
Well,
I was going to talk about Willow.
So we might as well continue the conversation.
We can always talk about that since we're here.
Like you know,
I mean,

(15:26):
as you said,
there's both like the personal impact,
but then the impact towards the series in general.
So there's,
you know,
Willow's mistakes.
Like she already,
she starts doing the,
like the de lasting spell and that's the first time she uses magic in a personal way,
in an emotional way,
like trying to not deal with bad things she was doing like using magic to take away her mistakes,

(15:48):
um which,
you know,
leads her down the slippery slope.
Um But,
and then I,
but what it really leads to obviously is when she falls down that slippery slope is it leads to her arrogance to bring back Buffy without actually checking where Buffy was,
which leads to the first evil getting a whole foothold in that world and completely just attempting to destroy the the Slayer line like,

(16:11):
you know,
she and it's never acknowledged that that's Willow's fault.
It's never acknowledged that the first is brought back because of Willow's arrogance.
Exactly.
That's one thing that always like drove me nuts.
Um It kind of like often gets mentioned when they go to the eye of Bell J.
Never again,
never again.
I know.

(16:31):
I know.
But the other is like the least too,
like she's the one that's like,
oh,
we did that.
But then that's it.
It's like one time.
That's it.
And it's never really fully addressed that.
That is my one critique of season seven that I only noticed from going through it for the podcast.
There are a lot of like,

(16:52):
plotlines like that,
that like seem like a big reveal.
Cool thing and then just nothing is done with them.
Right.
Yeah,
I think it's especially egregious when you get to,
um where everyone confronts Buffy and kicks her out and you're like,
basically we're in this position because it's all your fault,
guys,
not my fault.

(17:13):
I didn't even want to be here.
Yeah,
you just keep pulling me back in.
Um But one of the other things,
I mean,
obviously,
like you said Doppel Gang land,
like between the wish and Doppel Gang land,
like you see a lot of what eventually is to come with Willow um that she can go dark that she ends up being a lesbian in lesbian relationships.

(17:34):
But the other thing that I think it also helped to build the case for is that certain vampires and I think it depends on the human personality where a lot of that human characteristic stays with the vampire.
I mean,
we see spike,
we actually I think see it a lot in Angel and jealous.
We obviously would see it in vamp willow.

(17:54):
So it kind of starts to counteract that narrative that the council has that even Angel has trying to convince Buffy that other than him with the soul,
like all other vampires are just evil and should be killed.
And again,
not saying that the vampires aren't evil but that there's a lot more of that person particularly.
I think it's a strong personality that stays with the vampire.

(18:16):
Yeah,
I agree with that.
And like that is,
I,
I know,
like,
Angel people feel like,
kind of one way or the other.
Some people hate Angel.
I,
I like the show and I don't thing,
I think Angel does really well is exactly what you just said.
I think Angel,
like,
plays upon that even more with like Lorn and like there's a demon bar.
Yeah,
they're all just chill most of the time.
Um But like they're just like wanna get drunk and do karaoke and no one's really like looking to kill anybody.

(18:41):
Um And I do,
I always like a morally gray area.
I always like when we can like give a little bit more nuance to any sort of thing like that,
you know,
and like then we get clem in season six,
right?
And he's clearly chill,
just wants to eat nachos and hang out like he's not interested,

(19:01):
you know,
as an after dinner man.
No big deal among us,
you know.
Um Yeah,
I think Willow's,
yeah,
like I,
I think Willow's journey is probably also,
you know,
outside of Cordelia.
I think Willow's journey is probably one of the most transformative that we see her go from this meek um this meek mild young girl to this like powerful white witch um by the end who you know,

(19:33):
when you look at comics is like astro projecting.
So page.
Yeah,
I totally agree.
I think she is the most powerful person and the most underestimated continuously.
Even though everyone keeps seeing how powerful she is.
When glory like glory gets hurt by,
by Willow.

(19:54):
When Buffy is like,
I need you.
You're my like,
you are the most powerful person here.
You're the only one who's been able to hurt a God but then are fully like,
well,
she like,
she's not gonna go crazy.
She's like the like I think the continually underestimating willow and how powerful she is and what she's willing to do with that power is.

(20:19):
So it's so crazy and it's one of those things that you are not good friends because you're not paying attention to each other,
right?
You know,
I look at willow.
Her journey is a little different.
Um I look at the magic element with her almost as like um a drug addict,
almost like she's an addict and you can see it in season three where she takes like her first hit with anya,

(20:42):
right where she's like,
oh,
she gets a little bit of a taste where she's doing real magic and then they go full on out in the later seasons,
like fully throwing in your face that it's like,
that's what it is.
She's addicted to addicted to the magic.
And I think that I like that.
Like you're seeing her and almost like not that she's forgotten in a way,

(21:03):
but like,
they're not paying attention to her.
They're not saying like,
hey,
you're,
you're,
you shouldn't be doing this or you shouldn't do,
like how you said though,
Giles honing her a little bit and taking her on.
And that's kind of what happens when you,
when you have a child who is so restricted and they're,
they're sheltered and they're not necessarily allowed to go do things and they're the smart ones.

(21:24):
So the book smart ones,
sometimes they're the ones who dip into the magic.
Sometimes they're the ones who dip into that and if you're not watching them,
they get addicted to it.
And I feel like that's what happens to Willow and you start to see a lot of it,
you know,
this season where she's really just trying to find herself in this,
in this season and in who she is,

(21:46):
not just in the Scooby Gang but just who she really is as a person.
It's that it's her senior year too.
It's not just Buffy's,
even though Buffy is the main character.
You know,
it's,
it's Willow is finding her own way and her own niche in her friend group.
So,
yeah,
Paige.
What about you?
What are your,
what's the,

(22:07):
what's sort of the plot point for you that you think is for me,
the,
the most impactful for me is,
is Faith and Buffy's,
um,
dichotomy,
the relationship.
I feel like Buffy for the first time.
Um,
I think we talked about this,
like,
Buffy the,
for,
for the first time it's her moral compass really as to where she sees what you can get away with in the world.

(22:29):
She's been so pushing the edge and pushing the boundaries here and there.
Like,
I just want to date Clark had an alter ego.
I just want to date,
you know,
like she wants to do like those types of things.
But when faith comes into her world,
she really sees like,
oh,
maybe,
maybe I can push the boundaries a little bit more.
And it becomes the question of like,
what is your moral compass?

(22:50):
If you are the most powerful superhero in the world and you don't have to adhere by the laws that are set for everyone else.
What holds you back and I think that her seeing faith be that ying to her gang,
so to speak,
that's what sets her moral code.
Like I know I don't want to overstep that line,

(23:13):
you know,
when faith accidentally kills um the mayor's assistant,
you know,
it's,
it's a line for her that she doesn't ever wanna cry,
but then it bleeds into other seasons,
you know,
particularly season five when the Watchers Council deems in to her and there she has that amazing epic speech where she like throws the sword and she's like,
I'm fairly certain,

(23:33):
I said no,
no interruptions where she has the realization that like the world would be lost without her because she has continuously saved this world and she has continuously fought and she's,
she's that strength.
And then so she knows I'm the one who toes the line.
You guys all need to have to step in line behind me.

(23:56):
Like I recognize that I'm the one who sets this bar and it's where I say the bar goes,
that's what happens.
And I think it's even more further pushed in season seven when um they have the conversation around anya when she turns back into the demon and they him,
uh Xander and Willow and Bay are fighting in that,

(24:16):
that room on what they're going to do.
And he's like you're yelling at her and she's like,
I make the decisions,
she goes there.
I'm,
this is why I make these decisions and they have that huge blowout.
It's that,
that line for her of,
of,
I'm the one and this is where I'm gonna cross,
what I'm gonna cross.
And I think a lot of that was set by,

(24:38):
by having faith in season three and her seeing,
I don't wanna go down this path of being a slayer.
This is the other path I'm gonna go to.
And so for me,
that's why it was so impactful.
And they,
to me is one of the best additions to the show even in season four when they do the whole like body swap thing.

(24:59):
Like they're acting so amazing.
How they portray each other.
Like it's,
it's so great because you can,
that's when you see the true difference between the Slayers and the characters,
you can see it in their personalities and those,
those lines that they have to draw for each other.
And I think that Buffy also has that more so angel obviously with faith where he had that impression on her where he helped to change her.

(25:24):
But I think a lot of it also is Buffy still too.
You know,
faith is trying to pull it out of her being like,
you know,
you're,
you're not the good girl.
I know who you are.
You know,
like you're,
you're,
you've got it in you a little bit,
but like,
Buffy is also like,
and you have it in you that you're a good girl still.
You know,
I,
I think that there could be no Buffy without faith.
Like they balance each other out in the universe.

(25:46):
And I think that really stems from season three.
Mm Yeah,
I would agree.
I mean,
that was probably one of my favorite storylines from season three.
their relationship and their character development and then I really love how that gets mirrored in season six with Buffy situation particularly where it culminates in what happens in dead things when she beats on spike and then you mirror that with um who are you when faith is beating on herself in the church?

(26:19):
I mean,
and then the fact what I it really,
to me beautifully culminates in a lot of ways in season seven when they have the conversation in Buffy's bedroom after Faith's been hurt and you realize,
like they aren't,
they've both been through so much and like,
faith has hit bottom and come back up as Buffy went and hit bottom and is now back to being who she was and finding that moral center.

(26:44):
And so now they can relate on such a new level.
Um,
and,
you know,
they're both also more mature,
you know,
they talk about,
well,
maybe two slayers couldn't ever have gotten along.
And I was like,
no,
you two were teenage girls who had been through so much trauma.
That's why you couldn't get along.
I was like,
but I feel like,
yeah,
it just culminated to me in such a,

(27:05):
a really wonderful connection and moment in that,
in that scene,
beautiful maturity that they had in that scene.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I,
I mean that like Buffy and Faith's relationship,
I just like,
I'm always interested in talking about that.
Like,
I always,
you know,
II I,

(27:26):
the way I've been and like,
I feel like a thing with Buffy,
right?
Is that Buffy does nuance pretty well?
And I do think that,
like,
you know,
like a lot of the three of the four of us said that like,
you know,
three was our favorite and then five became our favorite.
Like,
you can view it differently each time you watch it.
And I definitely was season seven.
I view everyone's actions differently.

(27:48):
I always am like,
why the fuck you're kicking her out of her own house.
But other than that,
I'm like,
I could see where they're pissed at.
Buffy.
I could see where Buffy is pissed at them.
You know,
it's like,
and this time around I've been viewing Buffy and Faith more as I always felt,
it was like pretty like Sic,
right?
Um And which I have to bring this up to bring this up all the time.

(28:10):
When I bring up this relationship,
I had someone call me Joss Whedon on my Instagram because I said that they had date night and they were like,
oh,
you're sexualizing these two women,
you're as bad as Joss.
And I was like,
I don't know what show you're watching.
Oh my God.
I was like,
it's so clear.
I mean,
it's written in the script like Buffy says,

(28:30):
you know,
they're like,
oh got a hot date.
She was like,
you could call it that like it's,
there's no like implication,
like the joke,
like the joke is there like,
it's there for a reason,
100%.
And how could you miss that?
Right.
Yeah,
I don't,
I like also like Date Night isn't inherently sexual like,

(28:55):
um but so I'm always interested in that relationship and this time around I've almost been viewing it as um Faith is the one that would be Queer and Buffy's kind of like the straight crush that like,
does like the attention but doesn't,
like,
think too much about it but straight but,
but straight.
But faith is the one that is like,

(29:15):
but like,
yeah,
we're besties but like,
if you wanted to kiss.
Um,
and I feel like,
you know,
growing up queer,
that's not an uncommon thing.
Right?
Like,
so that's kind of how I've been viewing it this time around because Buffy doesn't,
doesn't give me queer vibes.
Um My faith absolutely does.

(29:37):
And I,
so I've been kind of like reading it that way this time around,
but who knows if you know,
next time I watch season three,
I'll view it differently.
Now.
I'm like,
oh sorry,
I was gonna say now I'm just envisioning a lot of you bank in the hot chick where she's like,
that's the relationship,
those two characters.
I'm envisioning faith being like that now being like,

(29:59):
I,
I'll,
I'll spend the night with you,
Buffy,
I'll,
I'll steal your French fries from your,
from your table.
But you're not looking,
I,
I was saying to the other day,
I jokingly a little bit jokingly that um when the kind of continuation of the series comics came out,
I was a little disappointed that when they do have Buffy have a um relationship with a woman that it's not fate.

(30:26):
I was like,
come on,
it should have been fate should have been,
I mean,
nothing against.
I give them a night.
They're adults now give them a night out drinking and then that's totally how I would have,
like,
pictured it up.
Well,
it's every night,
like,
out on patrol and faith is always like,

(30:48):
well,
come on,
don't you just get a little,
like,
all the time,
all the time,
constantly?
Like,
like we're slaying,
doesn't that make you horny?
Like it make you want to kiss another slayer buddy?
Just do it.
Let's go out and like,
is it,
is it willow or is it Buffy?

(31:09):
That's like she's always grunting.
There was a lot of crunching.
I,
I do love this relationship though.
I just,
I mean,
I think the addition to faith was,
it was such a smart,
uh it was such a smart move and it was,
and it gave us the,
you know,

(31:30):
it gave us the,
the mirror image of what Buffy could be like.
Um So yeah,
I um I just,
I do think there um you know,
they get to really see each other through um through each other's eyes,
both physically and sort of on their own journey separately.
So I really,
I,
I really love that,
that storyline and I love that we get to see faith grow up and to be,

(31:55):
you know,
and to be the woman that she is.
Um it's still faith but it's still,
you know,
she's still a little rough and tumble and,
you know,
talking about,
you know,
daddies and bull whips and all of that stuff and like that conversation.
I just,
I think it's such a great conversation because it's like,
it's still faith.
I mean,
she's,
she's better but she's,

(32:16):
she's still there.
Yeah,
I think.
Oh,
go ahead.
Oh,
I was just gonna say,
like,
does it ever bother any of you?
Because I know I've had some people on the podcast that have said it bothers them.
Um That faith kind of like arc,
like more or less takes place on Angel more so like her like redemption arc and then she just comes back to Buffy,

(32:37):
but I don't mind that because they are same universe.
It's like the characters is like mixed,
like,
you know,
go back and forth between shows like,
I it doesn't bother me,
but I know some people,
it does like it bothering me for me.
It doesn't bother to me,
but I don't know how old you guys are.
I'm,
I'm imagining,
I'm a lot older than some of you.
Um But I watched it in real time.
So when you were watching the real time,

(32:58):
it was a huge event.
So it wasn't necessarily like that.
It felt like it was on a separate show because you almost had to watch it continuously to understand it.
And so you'd watch the Buffy episode and then you'd watch the Angel episode directly after it.
So it felt like um like a two hour hour and a half,
you know,
however with commercials,
it felt like,
like it was a one cinematic universe thing.

(33:20):
Now,
through streaming and through that type of stuff,
it does kind of suck a little bit to,
like,
have to,
like,
switch over and be like,
ok,
let's,
we gotta watch these,
these faith episodes really quick to anyone you're showing to and that you can't just,
like,
tap in,
like,
like that way and be like,
yeah,
but when it was airing live,
you really didn't,
you really didn't not connect the two,
it was like it was just a huge event to have them.

(33:43):
So you didn't notice the difference of it on my end.
At least that,
I mean,
that might be I,
I am 41 so I also watched it live.
Um You don't look 41.
Thank you.
Um That like it got me flustered.
Um that,
that might be like why it doesn't bother me as well.
It could be like,

(34:04):
oh I did watch it live.
So it,
it really was a different experience right?
Than like the way you would binge something.
Yeah,
I would agree.
And also too,
I think it made more sense for her to,
to go over to Angel and have her story since it because Angel was such a story of like red,
like the redemptive arc like everyone was searching some sort of redemption um on that show.

(34:27):
Um And so,
it just made more sense for her to be over there because it would,
just wouldn't have worked on Buffy.
I think she would have even worked as like a main character on Angel.
I would like her.
It's funny that you say that because I just started doing an Angel re-watch and I've not watched it probably since the last season's DVD S came out.
Um,
because it just,

(34:47):
I mean,
I liked it,
but not as much as I love Buffy and re-watching those episodes.
I was like,
oh my God,
this was a waste of not bringing faith on or having her more on,
even if it was just as a reoccurring character like that connection.
That storyline was so fascinating and,
and worked so well.
But I agree.
I mean,

(35:07):
unfortunately,
I,
I also,
I don't think it could have,
she couldn't have reached redemption on,
on Buffy,
particularly because of what she had just done to buff.
I mean,
with the body switch and sleeping with Riley and she recognizes that when her mom.
Yeah.
Yeah,
exactly.
Um She,
and she realizes that when she has her epiphany moment with Angel and she's like,

(35:30):
oh my God,
what I did to Buffy and when she accidentally reveals that Buffy has a new love interest.
Um But I also love in that moment that when Buffy arrives and then the whole Watchers Council attacks that Buffy,
like you said,
speaking to her Moral Center,
she is still gonna protect faith.
It doesn't matter what faith had done because she knows the Watchers Council is more in the wrong at this moment.

(35:54):
Oh my God.
That I,
I love hearing you say this because I agree with you and we had such a big discussion when we covered that because it was split down the middle where a lot of people which I didn't know there's a lot of fans feel that Buffy is like terribly written in that episode.
Like that doesn't make sense the way she acts and everything I think.
And crazy enough,

(36:14):
um Ian Martin who does passion of the nerd,
he did like group discussions,
like he would like finish the season and then do a group discussion.
And um David Greenwald came on for one of his like group discussions and actually told him that Joss Whedon wrote all of Buffy's lines in that episode.
Like no one else wrote Buffy.
But Joss and I do think like you said,

(36:35):
she just had sex with her boyfriend,
she just,
you know,
body swapped to there.
She beat up her freaking mom.
Like Buffy has every right to be as furious as she is.
But we know her and we know that when she says I will beat you to death,
she's just threatening her.
She doesn't,
there's no way Buffy would actually do it right.
Like,
and I feel like she's allowed to have that anger.
Right.
Yeah.
And I also and you know,

(36:56):
also Buffy comes into the middle of a situation like so she like we have the,
the benefit of seeing like faith start to,
you know,
have some remorse for what she's done.
Where Buffy's just walking in on her,
you know,
and her naked ex-boyfriend,
like you fucked one of my boyfriends was to say that you weren't and you've tried to fuck him before.

(37:18):
So like this is par for the course for you.
So,
Buffy walking in,
she's just seeing the same thing but she,
yeah,
but I agreed like,
but the council is so much worse than faith.
Um And so yeah,
especially since the council is so much at fault.
Like they didn't get her a decent watcher.

(37:38):
They didn't get her housing,
they didn't take care of her,
they didn't get her mental health services.
I like basically it's the council's fault,
right.
Yeah.
And like,
right.
I do think that's what's so good about faith,
right?
She murders someone.
She gives the like you don't get it.
I don't care but you feel bad for her,
right?
Like I,
I wanted her,

(37:59):
like you said the Watchers Council.
Imagine like they're like,
yeah,
go to Sunnydale,
you'll be fine.
Now you're living in shitty motel.
Well,
not our problem.
Like this is a teenager.
This is a kid like you're letting her live in a shitty motel that like she probably could barely afford because like how she even getting money.
Um And so I do find myself like,

(38:19):
I'm rooting for faith and you know that when she says I don't care that she's,
she's like a cat.
She's like,
oop,
I'm like,
prickly,
don't touch me because I'm gonna snap back.
I'm gonna bite you.
And I do feel like even with the,
I don't care,
I still you like Eliza Dus to embodies that role so well that we know that faith is saying that because she wants to believe it.

(38:40):
Not because she does believe it.
Well,
she wants,
she wants to be loved like she wants what they all have.
And I think that's why the mayor so easily could swoop in and fill that void for her.
You know,
because everyone around her has let her down,
you know,
and he's like,
you're this amazing person,
you're,
you're,
you've all this potential like he,

(39:02):
he treats her like she matters and he,
he shows her that she's important in the world and she hasn't had that from anybody and she thought she was gonna have that from these people and in her own way,
she messed it up,
but she still sees it as their fault.
You know,
she,
so this he comes in and enables her and he gives her this gift of,
of being loved like a daughter and,

(39:22):
and that's what she takes from that and,
and it bleeds through all of her actions throughout the rest of the series.
She just wants love.
That's what it is.
And I,
I even think that is an interesting dynamic.
Her and the mayor,
like,
I,
I love when he,
like,
buys her the apartment and she's like,
thanks sugar daddy.
And he's like,
no,
no,
no,
none of that.
Like,
he genuinely just like,
thinks of her as like a daughter even though he's sending her out on murder errands.

(39:46):
Like he,
like,
genuinely cares about her,
even though he wants to bring about an apocalypse like he does.
And I do think that is such an interesting dynamic and it's fun to watch too that the mayor does for faith.
But the council never would.
Right.
Think about it.
This is a guy who wants to become a demon and,
like,
conquer the world is better to her than the watcher counselor.

(40:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Her choice to go with him.
Like,
once he starts doing that makes total sense.
I might too.
Right.
I would,
I'd be like,
well,
I gotta kill,
I've already killed one person.
So why not?
Like I get a Playstation,
you know?
Right.
And real quick if we,
if everyone's like,
I page you brought this up and I wanted to,

(40:29):
I was like,
oh,
that's,
that's smart.
I don't know why I didn't think about that.
The Cordelia of it all I do like her arch is just so good and like,
I helpless for me is like a really,
even though Cordelia,
what has like five minutes altogether in the episode.
That is such a big moment in showing who Cordelia is for me of like,

(40:49):
she comes in,
she,
she's literally just there to like,
do like whatever report,
get some books on it and she like,
is being jokey.
But then when Buffy turns to her and looks,
you can tell something's wrong,
right?
Like she doesn't know what's wrong,
but she knows something is wrong And Buffy just quietly is like,
can you drive me home?
The like way charisma changes her,
like she softens immediately and it just is like,

(41:10):
oh,
of course,
for me that like very much shows us how far Cordelia has come and how she's like she is kind of ride or die for this group.
She will drag them for their outfits.
She will make fun of the way they talk,
you know,
she'll call them dots.
But like when it comes down to it,
she is like,
yeah,
yeah,
I will help like,
and I just,
I don't know.
That's such a big moment for me for Cordelia that I think about a lot.

(41:31):
I mean,
and she looks fantastic.
Um amazing in it.
Amazing in that scene.
And Cordelia is my favorite character and I think that scene um I think I,
I don't know if guys have have had this,
but I think for women it's a very universal thing when another woman looks at you in a certain way where you've experienced it yourself and where you're surrounded by men who have like,

(41:57):
done you wrong and they have that history or together already going back to season two where they were almost assaulted,
you know,
by the,
the college guys,
you know.
You know,
so it's like she sees in her that there's some sort of pain and some sort of hurt in her eyes,
she doesn't know what it is,
but it's that underlying this is like a woman.
I know what you're going through.
So regardless of if I think you like shit or if I if I'm picking on you all day like you're Yeah,

(42:21):
come with me,
you're fine.
You're safer with me if that's what you feel than with anyone else.
And it is that true evolution of her.
She ii I always say that like Anya was one of the most important additions to the show.
She's grown up with the show.
She's a very accurate representation for people who have neuro divergency,
right?
But for me,
like Cordelia o other than Willow,

(42:43):
but Cordelia has had the most growth because she started out as just a vapid character.
Like she had no real depth to her in season one.
And then as season two hits,
she really started to become a part of the Scooby.
And then by season three,
she full blown was like had her own storylines,
her own thoughts,
her own,

(43:04):
her own growth.
And then when she went into Angel who she became an angel.
I absolutely loved.
I actually stopped watching Angel because she left.
That was the whole reason why I stopped initially watching it.
Um And so I love it and that scene is just the most accurate representation of who Cordelia is.
Yeah,
I love Cordelia.
I think she's so she's so strong and like,

(43:27):
again,
even in like in Slayer fest 98 where she's just like,
she's got that spatula and she's like,
it might be a spatula,
but I'm gonna make it count.
And that ending is like one of my favorite moments of the series.
The way she just like she sees Buffy's unconscious.
She's like,
well,
I gotta do this and she like,
takes a big risk there,
right?
Because if the vampire like called her bluff,

(43:49):
she wouldn't have been able to like,
you know,
in hand to hand combat,
like beat him up,
but she's just like,
I'm gonna channel is and you see the confidence wash over her and it is just so good to watch.
It's like,
so enjoyable.
Uh I love it.
I love her green dress shot.
Yes.
Everything she wears is just stunning.

(44:12):
Anytime she wears green or maroon,
those are the two colors that just make Kris Carpenter pop.
Yeah,
definitely.
I,
I love her in earshot when Buffy can hear everything.
I just love how like Cordelia just says what is on her mind and like that is the most real thing that like,
she's not hiding anything.

(44:33):
She's not,
she's not dumbing it down.
She's just saying what's in her head and there's like nothing wrong with that.
I think my favorite Cordelia Mo in season three is when she mouths thank you to Xander at the prom for what he did for her with the helping out to get the dress and not telling that she was working in April.

(44:55):
I know because it shows her maturity and that she was able to move on and forgive Vander because,
you know,
and that she recognized what he did for her and that,
you know,
I,
I just think that's such a,
that's a,
like such a true moment for her.
Um,
can II I,
I'm doing this again.
I'm sorry,
but I have to,

(45:15):
like you mentioned prom.
So I gotta say that that moment,
there is not a moment that there's not a time I have watched the prom and not cried 25 years every time,
every single time,
like a baby,
like a baby.
Yeah,
I know the way Jonathan delivers it.
You're just,
oh,

(45:35):
he's so sweet and just endearing.
He's like,
um,
is Buffy here.
He's so nervous and the cut to her where she's like,
wait a minute,
what?
And she like,
kind of turns around and it was like,
huh,
like it's,
and when Giles is like,
oh,
like,
you know,
sometimes they can surprise you so good and the idea the idea that like,

(45:58):
like they're giving her this award,
but they're actually not sure how she's like,
I feel like they're more nervous to give it to her because they're like,
we're not,
we don't know how she's doing receive this because she's been like,
you know,
she's kind of a killer.
So we don't like,
we don't quite understand,
but like we want to give you this.
So thank you.
But please don't hurt me at the same time.

(46:18):
I love that the secret is out in the open now.
I love that.
It's like they all know like they're like Buffy.
We know like we know that you've been protecting us.
We know that we know what you really have been doing for us and we see it like,
it's,
it's that being seen thing.
That's what anybody wants to do is be seen.
My husband.
He watched it for the first time.
He watched it on my last re-watch.

(46:39):
And when we got to that episode,
I was balding like a fucking baby.
And he looks over at me and I was like,
I was like,
sitting in my comfy chair and I was like,
and he's like,
are you OK?
And I was like,
just wait,
it was like,
it wasn't there yet.
It hadn't gotten to the speech yet.
And he's like,
he's like,
why are you crying?
Because I was like,
just wait,
I just like,
because I,
it was in my head I knew right when the moment was going to be.
And so he started watching,

(46:59):
it looks at me and like he started,
like his face started getting real red.
And I like,
see,
I was like,
you're sucked in at this moment right here.
I see.
This is why I cried.
I was like,
every time,
every time,
25 years later,
every time,
oh my God.
You know,
I'm about to cry just like,
I'm literally like trying not to cry just thinking about it.
I know.
Well,
and then the way like buffer's reaction to it just like that hits you.

(47:23):
It's like the push and pull between Buffy and Jonathan and the fact that she like can't believe she's getting this and how much you can just read on her face,
how much she,
she doesn't have like a snappy comeback at all because she's kind of like shocked that they are doing this for her,
right?
And it's so perfect that it's Jonathan giving it to her.
Like from that earshot moment like I earshot is,

(47:46):
it's my favorite episode in the entire series.
I out of all the characters the most on the show,
I relate a lot to the Jonathan character.
Like that's how I was and,
and how it was treated in school.
And so I wish that episode would have aired live.
That episode would have been so incredibly powerful for kids who are getting bullied to,

(48:07):
to see like,
because you know,
when he's up in that watch tower and she's given that big old speech,
he's like,
I would never harm anybody.
He's like,
I came here for my,
to do this to myself,
like the fact that she,
she saved him and,
and kind of opened his eyes to things a little bit,
but he opened her eyes to things and then at the prom,
he's the one giving her the award.

(48:28):
I was like,
that's like,
that's what makes it so much more emotional for me is that,
that he's just like,
essentially he's saying thank you to her in his speech,
like,
thank you for saving my life.
You know,
I'm gonna skip season two and just go right to the,
I want to watch them.
So I'm just going to watch the prom after this.

(48:48):
Yeah,
I know.
So I,
what's your um what's your moment that you feel like most impacts?
I think that's the problem,
I think.
Well,
wait.
No,
no.
You know what?
I uh I'm gonna God,
there's like 10 moments.
I think the problem would be a very,
would be tied with this moment.

(49:10):
But I gotta say it's when Buffy yells now and they all pull off their gowns and then to fight.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So,
so good.
Like I,
I had because like,
you know,
that was also delayed and I remember I started watching in season three and then I stopped because I was like,
oh I missed the finale.
Let me wait till I can catch up because I just didn't realize it had been delayed and I got the VHS tapes which are behind the Buffy right there.

(49:36):
Um But I still have,
I remember I got them from suncoast video and I was like,
oh,
I can see.
Yeah.
And it was like the,
the sets they put out where it was like two episodes per VHS tape.
So it was only like,
six.
But I was so excited to watch the finale.
And I can remember sitting in my,
like,
childhood bedroom,
it's on the little,

(49:57):
like,
crappy box TV.
I had and I just remember being like,
oh my God,
like,
so,
like,
proud of my babies that they all,
like,
put together.
Like,
it's such for me that's like,
yes,
it's like,
so sweeping and then,
like,
you know,
a few minutes later we get the vampire saying get the kids and they run,
like,
towards the vampires.
Like,
ah,
it's so good and it shows like,

(50:20):
that's what I think of a lot.
Every time I see.
Like,
kids,
like,
doing,
like,
like gathering to do,
like,
activism stuff and,
like,
doing protests and,
like,
I think of that moment,
which I guess makes me sound old too because I'm like,
oh,
the kids are doing things but like,
you know,
and I feel like kids can,
like Giles says in the prom,
like,
kids can surprise you and be like united the same way,

(50:43):
like page when you were talking about with Cordelia,
right?
Like I do feel like all of the kids at this point we earned this because we know that they all know Buffy is somehow saving everyone and that there are monsters and their students die all the time.
Right?
So they like at least know that.
So it's just really nice to see them all fighting side by side.
You know,
that's a take,

(51:04):
oh I'm always gonna be no,
it's OK.
I was gonna say,
I think it's one of those moments too where um where it establishes like that she's built trust that she's earned everyone's trust.
And that's something that keeps carrying on throughout the series too is that you might be scared,
you might have doubts,
but like she's earned it.

(51:25):
So just like,
follow her into the fray because you're probably gonna win.
I feel like we're all Andrew when they cut to Andrew and he's crying after all of us.
I love it.
I agree.
I think,
you know,
I was gonna say when you were talking about like all of the,

(51:45):
like kids standing up and getting together and stuff like that and like the activism stuff.
I,
I kind of personally have a theory of as to why like,
I think like our generation,
like the,
the Zel and,
and Gen Xers and,
and,
you know,
younger down to like Gen Z and J Napa I feel like we are this way,
this,
this activism way this way because of shows like Buffy because we did watch shows like this.

(52:10):
You know,
I,
I say,
you know,
we were raised on Captain Planet and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
So we like,
wanna save the world completely.
And you know,
it's these shows where you're seeing these teens unite at the end and fight this,
this common big bad and it goes back to the,
the adults never believing the,
the kids.
So they have to band together.

(52:31):
And I think that we have grown up all seeing that and that's why we all band together and protest and are loud and are activists and stand up for what's right and we stand up for the underdogs and,
you know,
we,
we are that way because of,
of the media and,
and what was surrounding us at that time.
Yeah,
I,
you know,
that's,

(52:51):
I not to be too much but that's why anytime someone's like,
oh,
the shows are so woke now it's like,
what were you watching?
Because like,
like I,
I've,
I've had like,
weirdo,
like conservative Buffy fans,
like in my mention sometimes and I'm like,
I don't,
I have no idea what show you watched.
Like,
if you don't think Buffy was political,
you were blind.

(53:11):
Yeah,
you really missed it.
It went over your head because even my,
oh,
sorry,
go ahead.
Yeah,
I was gonna say X Men because X Men is,
yeah,
it is happening with me and X Men right now,
like with X Men right now there is,
I,
I've been doing a lot of like,
how I'm tired of like Wolverine being featured and I,
I'm like,
ready for other storylines to be featured and I'm talking about other things and,

(53:35):
and people have made some like really harsh comments that has blown me away that I've been like,
were you ever really even a fan or did you just watch the Fox films and you love them or like,
do you actually know the history of what X men stand for?
And that's kind of what the Buffy thing.
There are so many people who have conservative takes on Buffy and it blows my mind because it wasn't it like the first to feature a teenage,

(54:00):
um,
an LGBT teenage love story,
wasn't it the first show?
And it was like,
only the fourth show to ever even have like,
uh,
like same,
same sex kiss,
right?
Like,
it was such a,
like a progressive,
powerful show that it's like,
did you miss the points of it?
Like,
did it just go over your head or what?
And like,

(54:21):
even the reason I actually got into Buffy is because my mom,
um,
was loved Buffy.
My mom was like,
very into Buffy from the beginning and she would always say it's because like,
when she was younger,
like,
they didn't really have women who were allowed to be like,
in charge and like fighting on these shows and like,
when her and her cousins would play,
she wanted to be like the woman fighter and they would be like,

(54:43):
oh,
no,
you have to like,
we save you like,
girls don't do things like that.
And so my mom always felt like Buffy was,
she just loved that about Buffy and,
you know,
like,
and she passed away last year at 76.
So it's not like she was the age group for Buffy.
Right?
And she was able to,
like,
recognize that,
like,
that was progressive,
like,
at the very basis,

(55:03):
right?
That's like the feminism 101 of the show is like,
yeah,
we should do this,
this shit too.
But like,
even just that little bit,
like drew my mom in and that's why she loved it so much.
I love it.
I love that.
You and your mom.
I love it that you,
it's like something that you guys connected with.
I love that so much.
It's multigenerational.
You know,
it's even,

(55:23):
even young kids now are still watching it.
My,
my,
my youngest sister,
she's 22 and she used to crawl in my bed on Sunday mornings and watch the reruns with me as a little kid.
And she,
um,
when she babysits now,
like,
she was,
uh,
she just graduated college,
but when she was like,
babysitting in college,
she's like,
yeah,
she goes,
you'd be surprised,
like the little kids have Buffy on.

(55:44):
She like the like little 13 year old girls.
I was like,
so it's like,
range,
like,
from so many different generations that it's still going.
No,
I was gonna say that's always what's been so special and unique to me.
About Buffy is like other teen shows.
Like,
you try to watch them when you're not a teen and I think sometimes it can be hard because they're,
they just feel so teen.
You're like,
I can't connect yet.

(56:05):
Like,
like you said,
it is multigenerational people watching Buffy,
like people in their forties and fifties were watching it when it first came on and like there is something so magical about the story and the characters that it just defies like age limits.
I think it's that speech at the end like that she gives like every,

(56:27):
every person who you know,
could be a slayer is a slayer now like that like that moment too.
Like I think it resonates throughout,
I feel like that speech and that spell sort of reverberates not only forward in time,
but backwards in time and it allows everyone to be like I would.
Yes,
I haven't missed my opportunity to like stand up and be the strong person that I,

(56:52):
that I know that I can be.
It's not too late because I'm still here.
So bring it on.
Let's go.
I am ready.
Uh That's the other moment that makes me cry is that,
you know,
that let me know the,
I feel like anytime they give a big speech and Buffy,

(57:13):
it's always like,
so like,
it's amazing,
like spikes speech when they kick Buffy out in season seven when he's like,
you ungrateful little.
Like he's like,
she's,
she died for you twice.
She's saved the world for like,
and you spat on her and kick her out of her own home.
Like how the audacity I love that.

(57:34):
He calls them all out.
It's so power.
Like that's when I really started liking Spike was that episode?
I've never really been a Spike fan but that episode when I was like,
oh,
ok,
like I get you now,
like I really get who you are as a character.
Like you are just truly 100% loyal to Buffy and you have completely changed and become this totally different person with a soul and,

(57:59):
and,
and you were already changing before you had your soul.
Like,
so to me like,
I,
I love him now,
but that's speech,
man.
And,
and then when you know,
they give the all of us,
we can all be Slayers speech at the end.
Yes.
It's just everyone.
Yes.
Mhm So that whole season is still with good speeches.

(58:20):
Like,
because even when they were like doing the Thunderdome speech,
when they're like,
they're,
and they're about to like go into the 21 or two people come in and only one comes out and then she like kills the like Uber vampire and she's like,
so there it is just dust,
like it's just so powerful.
Like the,
this show is just written so incredibly well.

(58:41):
Yeah.
Um One of the,
the moments that I'm gonna,
that I wanted to bring to the table um was,
is actually something that I think is planned,
but I think it's so,
it's so well done and so hidden.
Um that and it's all the references to Dawn Coming like those early mentions.

(59:04):
And I think it's one of those things that who's like,
we didn't see it coming,
we didn't know it was there and yet he was planning for it the entire time.
And so when it got there,
we were like,
well,
what the hell is this and what is it?
And then,
but like all of those mentions,
like those little Easter eggs of like Dawn Coming and Buffy's like all of those things I think are brilliant.

(59:30):
And so,
and it was he,
but I felt like this was the moment that they were saying,
ok,
our fans are too smart for us.
They are figuring us out and we need to do something that's gonna blow their minds.
And when we,
when they figure out that what this all means,
it's gonna be like,
boom.
Uh And I think that's a testament to the writing.

(59:51):
I think it's a testament um to the genre.
Um And it's a great nod to the fans to be like,
you know,
you think,
you know,
everything but you don't.
Um,
and I love,
I love being able to look back and see all of the stuff that we missed.
Yes.

(01:00:12):
Little Miss Muffet counting down from 730,
I love it.
I love all the,
all the like language in it.
I don't know if you guys were a part of the boards back in the days when like the early heyday of the internet message boards,
I was only a lurker.
I didn't partake but I was a Lurker.
A Lurker.
Do you remember when,
like after season three aired and it went into season four?

(01:00:35):
A lot of people were like,
what did this mean?
Like it,
it did its job.
It served its purpose for real because people,
like,
could not figure out like the coding because they knew that things were coded in it.
But like everything,
they were dissecting everything.
And then once by season five,
when it got to the cheese guy,
the,
or what's that?
Season four was the cheese guy.
Yeah.
Season four with the cheese guy.

(01:00:55):
Like,
restless.
Yeah,
with the cheese.
That's the movie.
People were like,
ok,
maybe he's just fucking with us,
like,
maybe they're not really putting stuff in and they're just like,
because,
like,
we know that Buffy likes cheese.
That's the underlying joke because that like cheese.
But like,
but like,
ok,
he's just fucking with us.
And so,
but the boards were going nuts with all of that stuff.
People were trying to figure out like what faith was saying.

(01:01:15):
They were like decoding every single thing she was doing.
And it was an amazing time because it made it interactive and it made it so much more fun to like,
guess what all this was gonna mean.
And nobody had a clue that it was gonna be Dawn.
Like it was mind blowing that.
Like,
this is where they were gonna go with the show.
II,
I feel like Buffy was probably my first,

(01:01:37):
like,
interactive,
like fandom online.
Um Like,
I was a big Star Trek kid growing up in Star Wars,
but like,
you know,
we didn't have the internet.
Um And then Buffy was like,
maybe the first like,
nerdy thing I was watching while also being able to,
like,
read stuff about it as it was airing.
I don't like we,
like,
I feel like in my house,
we were so obsessed,

(01:01:58):
like me and my sister,
um my middle sister were so obsessed with Buffy that like,
even though I was watching it live,
I still would record every single episode because it was like,
I have to watch it again.
I have to rewa it again over.
My mom would be like,
you've stacks and stacks of VHS tapes in here.
And I'm like,
I don't care.
I'm like,
I want to re-watch Buffy when I want to re-watch it and then once they started coming out with the DVD S and stuff,

(01:02:20):
I was like,
all right,
I can finally get rid of some of these.
Like,
yeah,
that feels very familiar.
That was my life.
Oh,
my goodness.
Um Y'all,
we are running out of time here.
It's um and I want to be respectful of everyone's time.
Um So,
uh thank you both Paige and Ian for being here and joining us in this conversation and being our very first guests.

(01:02:43):
Um We really appreciate it.
Thanks for making it fun and easy.
I feel so honored.
I feel so honored.
Like I,
I love you guys.
This has been so much fun and like anytime you guys want to hang out,
I got to do this again,
I'm totally down.
Awesome.
So,
Paige,
what are you,
what are you working on now?
What,
what,
what do you have coming up?
So,

(01:03:04):
I've got a secret documentary that my producer told me I couldn't announce today.
I wanted to announce it today.
Um We've had some projects on the docket right now that we're working on.
We have a documentary that's getting ready to launch.
And then um we've been kind of fine tuning a script for an indie horror film and um I just finished writing a memoir after two years.

(01:03:29):
It's,
it's gonna be published.
Um Hopefully by this summer it's currently being edited and the four words and all that stuff are getting written by the people who are writing the stuff.
But,
um,
so that's pretty much what I've got going on and then just kind of making some tiktoks and staying on Buffy talk and having some fun.
Yes.
And if you haven't seen,
um,
Patris documentary,

(01:03:49):
Fred Heads,
we've mentioned Nightmare on Elm Street a couple of times.
It's a great documentary.
It's on TV.
Is that where people can,
yeah,
you can,
you can stream it for free on TV.
Or if you're like me and you like physical media.
Um You can get it on Amazon,
the physical media version of it,
the DVD.
So I appreciate you.
I love it.
It's a labor of love.
It's all about the Phantom of a Nightmare in the street and how one film and one genre particularly horror can impact people's lives and save their lives.

(01:04:17):
And um a lot of people connected with it and I love it.
I love that.
Four women produced a film that was number one for five weeks in a row.
Like that's what I love.
Like I'm like four women in a horse produced a documentary that was number like,
like I got my like Xena voice in the four women in the Thrones of a whore produced a document like I love it.

(01:04:40):
So thank you so much.
I,
I appreciate you shouting that out.
And what about you?
What do you have coming up?
What's going on?
Um Play us 98 is gonna be covering the magicians season one soon.
Um We're like halfway through our recordings.
Um And then we're gonna get back to Angel season three and right now on the Patreon,

(01:05:02):
we're covering Buffy season three each episode as they turn 25.
Um Yeah,
Slayer Fest,
98 we're at Slayer Fest X 98 on all social media platforms.
Fantastic and page of people wanna follow you.
Where can they follow you?
Uh You can follow me uh on tiktok at the final Girl,
but it's instead of an I it's uh you.
So it's like the final girl.

(01:05:23):
Uh the final girl 13.
The only,
it's the only social I'm predominantly on,
but it's the final girl was taken and I was like,
what can I do?
I was like,
well,
girl,
I'm like,
I always talk sarcastic and funny.
It was like,
so that'll work,
you know,
and it's a ghoulish thing.
So I always call people ladies and germs.
So that's awesome.

(01:05:44):
Well,
thank you everyone for joining us um for this incredible episode.
I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.
And if you wanna follow us,
you can follow us at on Instagram and Facebook at a Buffy podcast or you can email us at a Buffy podcast at gmail.com.
All right.
Well,
thanks so much and we will see you all next time.
Thank you.
Bye bye.

(01:06:05):
Thank you.
Bye.