A Girl and A Guy Discuss Pop Culture

In the first episode of season 2, hosts Kate Balzer and Charles Swint return to Sunnydale. We explore the deft use of cultural references in the series, and how such a small show made a big impact on pop culture.

Spoiler alert: The entire “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” series will be discussed.

This episode was produced by Kate Balzer and Charles Swint. Edited by Jeremy Williams. 

Theme song

Angel’s Rock by Twisterium | https://www.twisterium.com Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Creative Commons / Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0) https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en_US

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Hello.
Hello and welcome to a girl,
a guy in a Buffy podcast.
I'm one of your hosts.
I'm Charles Swint.
Hi,
I'm Kate Balser,
the other host and welcome to season two.
We're back.
We're so excited.
We're back.
Um,
and for those of you who might just be joining us,

(00:31):
we are a Buffy podcast.
We are not a rewatched podcast.
We do,
uh,
spoil the show and we talk about all things Buffy and tackle a big beds of the season.
We're not,
we're talking about big sort of,
uh,
thematic beds of the season,
these sort of big bad ideas.
Um,
last season we talked about feminism.

(00:54):
Um,
and then,
and Buffy and Kate.
Do you want to tell him what our big bad is of the season?
Yes,
super excited.
So,
this season,
we're discussing pop culture.
Um,
so we're,
we decided we want to do a little more fun.
A little less dark,
maybe last season ended.
I mean,

(01:14):
it was heavy,
it was heavy.
But,
you know,
that's the show,
that's what we love about the show.
But we also love the softer side,
the softer side of the earth,
the softer side of the earth,
I was gonna say lighter side and then I was like,
oh,
the quote is right there um which,
you know,
is all things pop culture and culture related to Buffy.

(01:36):
So that's language,
music,
fashion.
Um So those are what we're gonna be discussing this season.
So in this first episode back,
we're delving into the overall theme as its own episode.
So discussing culture and pop culture in Buffy,
The Vampire Slayer and what that means and the impact on the show and the impact the show has had in the greater pop culture universe think that culture,

(02:06):
what we consider pop culture now in future generations and looking down and I think Buffy is a great example of this is something that will ultimately become high culture.
Yeah,
that's certainly true.
I mean,
you can definitely switch between something that used to be pop culture can become high culture.

(02:26):
I mean,
Shakespeare is a great example and that's often used that it was,
you know,
kind of the rowdy masses would go to see it.
Um But now we consider it very highbrow and it's not easy to understand and you know,
it's not everyone's cup of tea.
Um And so it's not considered pop culture anymore,

(02:47):
it's considered,
you know,
high art,
high culture.
However,
you want to describe it.
The other part of that too is obviously there's lots of elements of um Western culture,
European and American culture in these definitions so that also,
you know,
there's elements of racism,
prejudice,

(03:07):
colonization that come into play about what labeling something as culture,
um you know,
high culture versus pop culture,
right?
It becomes very,
you know,
yeah,
it does become very classist,
it becomes very racist,
can become very ablest too,
I think and,
and some and some aspects of things.

(03:27):
Um and there,
you know,
and there's this,
there is this debate and again,
going back to this uh this Guardian article that I read was talking about uh a teacher who was,
who kind of oscillates about this idea of whether or not to teach high culture versus pop culture and in their studies and which is more effective and what,

(03:50):
you know is it,
you know,
do we teach using these sort of like examples of Shakespeare and,
and talking about La Om and,
and talking about these sort of high out concepts versus having a conversation about something that's a little bit more accessible,
you know,
like,
well,
let's talk about rent,

(04:10):
which is basically,
you know,
a trans whatever,
however you wanna uh distill that down?
And is it dumbing it down or is it um just making it more accessible to people and making it more relatable?
Yeah.
No,
I think that's a great point.
And also I think,
you know,
we,
we touched on this but time and place of culture is so important because what your culture and what people in society of today are relating to,

(04:40):
obviously,
it can be incredibly different from decades and eras past.
And but that doesn't mean what people are into today makes the the culture less just like,
it doesn't mean that what people are into,
makes the culture more culture is such whatever kind of culture.
And in this case,

(05:00):
talking about like arts and entertainment culture is such an important part of the development of society.
And it's where and libraries are where we house that culture.
So,
you know,
and so you talk about the Library of Congress,
which is,
you know,
the place where all things are held like any,
any or any part of culture,

(05:22):
no matter how big or small,
you know,
if registered basically gets put there for,
for a very long time,
libraries have been a an important resource in culture.
And as we know that a library is an incredibly important resource in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I mean,
so I mean,

(05:43):
I don't and you know,
that's probably,
and we're talking,
you know,
the the parallels of that maybe that's not on accident.
Um that,
that is,
you know,
or maybe it is or maybe it is and it's just a happy accident or this like interesting comparison that the show that revolved around like where many scenes revolved around a library,

(06:05):
the housing of all this knowledge um and culture of a different world,
you know,
then becomes sort of a symbol for this show that is such a,
a beacon of,
of icon and,
or,
of pop culture itself.
Yeah.
I mean,
I've certainly never heard anything in interviews or read anything about the decision to make Giles the librarian at the school.

(06:30):
But if you really start to think about it and think of like,
all the options they could have given him for a,
you know,
another,
for another job to bring him into Buffy's life rather than just like,
kind of the way they did in the movie where there was like this weird,
you know,
guy who would just like,
show up library makes so much sense on so many levels.
Not only like the practical of,

(06:51):
he's got,
you know,
probably a little bit more flexibility in his job than if he was like a,
one of the teachers at the school.
Um that had,
you know,
a little bit more of a set schedule,
obviously,
you know,
whatever periods he would be teaching at,
but it also obviously plays into the background.
They give him that he was uh a curator at either a British museum or the British Willow was not sure.

(07:13):
Um You know,
and then obviously he needing to be a resource for knowledge for Buffy.
That's sort of the,
one of the main roles of the watcher being a librarian made so much sense.
I'm sure,
excuse me,
I'm sure that was like,
done very much with deliberate thought and purpose.
And um you know,
not only makes sense for the show but does show you the importance of learning and information and resources um necessary for,

(07:45):
you know,
Buffy's role as a Slayer,
right?
And it was always something that he really wanted her to sort of get involved in and sort of like reading the text and going through the guides and all of this other stuff which Kendra was all about,
you know,
with her watcher and was like,
oh,
have you read the,
you know,
oh,
have you read the Chronicles?

(08:05):
Um which Buffy was never really interested in,
in doing and having,
having that knowledge.
So obviously,
culture and pop culture play an incredibly important role in Buffy,
The Vampire Slayer.
Uh You know,
the show is filled with pop culture and culture references galore as we know.

(08:30):
Yes.
Um And in fact,
Charles and I just bought a book that we I discovered in researching for this episode called The Gentle Viewers Obsessive Guide to Buffy,
The Vampire Slayer by Kathleen Matson.
Uh For all the Buffy books I have read over the years.
This was new to me and I have started to flip through it.

(08:51):
It's,
it's basically a resource guide.
It's not,
you don't read it like a typical book,
but it's basically noting every major culture,
pop culture reference.
It's notes the music from episodes,
it has this incredible breakdown.
It's,
it's a real amazing work of breaking the show down and,

(09:12):
and flipping through it.
I mean,
you literally can open it up and just pick an episode and like,
there are at least 3 to 4 references minimum in an episode to something cultural or pop cultural.
And most of the time the examples that she listed in the book were so funny.

(09:32):
I,
I just was like reading through it and laughing because it was like some of the funniest one liners and dialogue from the show,
um which doesn't surprise me that the,
the two went together.
Yeah,
it's a really,
it's a really great codex I think,
like,
it's just really great sort of like,
or,
you know,
compendium to buffer and you just like,
look it up and be like,
oh yeah,

(09:52):
pick a word and I can like literally flip through the index and then find something.
It's really,
really great.
Um It's really funny the one of the references because it even talks about like story arcs and things like that and what happens to people and,
you know,
list of directors and all that kind of stuff,
like how many,
you know,
how many episodes each director directed and like,

(10:14):
what,
like it's a really,
really great easy resource.
Um One of the things that I did notice and it,
and I was a little annoyed at first,
but then I realized like,
based on like the context of what they're saying,
it's interesting that it isn't in here.
But also I kind of understand why,
um,
that the Guardian is not in this book?

(10:35):
Oh,
interesting.
I mean,
the,
from the final episodes,
right.
Yeah,
they are not mentioned at all,
like,
just looking even in the character breakdowns because they even like,
do a list of like every character who shows up and what episode.
Um,
but the Guardian is not in this book,
I guess she'll need a third edition.
She will,
I'm gonna reach out and be like,

(10:56):
hey,
we noticed this oversight,
right?
It's just a small thing,
but it's a part of the,
but it's actually kind of a big thing too when you look at it.
Yeah.
Yeah,
exactly.
So,
you know,
we're not just here to list all our favorite references,
although we could probably spend the podcast doing that.

(11:16):
Um But talking about what it meant to the show that they had so many pop culture and culture references that the characters were always saying,
what does it mean?
It means that they're hip,
it means that they live in this world.
It means that they are a part of our world.
Um It means that um they are,

(11:38):
you know,
they may not necessarily be all book smart,
but they are smart enough to have consumed a culture in a world that makes sense to them and they can reflect it back um to us,
which makes us feel comfortable because we're like,
oh,
you're a part of our world too.
Like you're making references that I understand.
And you're not creating like a whole new,

(12:00):
we're already having to deal with the idea of,
like,
dealing with vampires and all of this other stuff.
But not now not having to be like,
oh my gosh,
let's talk about this,
like,
and like this band that we don't know anything about,
like,
and making all of these references that we would have to play.
Catch up to.
Yeah,
I think that's a really good point.
I didn't actually think about it,
but it is a world building that invites the viewer in that you can be connected to them because you're like,

(12:25):
oh,
that's,
you know,
I understand those cultural references.
Um You know,
so obviously,
it's very American of the nineties.
Um So it might be a little more challenging for someone who is not as experienced with that culture,
but I think a lot of their references,
you know,
cross cultural lines.
And then of course,
there's obviously the,
the side of the fact that there's a lot of American hegemony in cultural exportation of movies and television.

(12:51):
So even if you've never been to America grew up in America,
there's probably a lot you could still understand it.
Um The other thing I was gonna add to that is it also is so seamlessly integrated and such a um well,
as we said,
the,
like,
the references are just nonstop,
but it doesn't feel like,
oh,

(13:12):
look at me being like reference reference reference like winky Wink.
It's just like what he,
what Joss Sweden did in building the show and that the other writers took on it became a part of that lang,
that Buffy language.
It wasn't that,
it was,
that's just how they talked,
they talked in reference.
Um It wasn't,

(13:33):
like I said,
it wasn't Winky,
it wasn't,
oh,
let me show you how much I know.
Let me show you how many things I can,
you know,
refer to.
It's just,
that's how they spoke and it,
to me it worked really seamlessly.
Um And,
you know,
I'm that kind of person.
Like I've always been into pop culture.
I think you've always been into pop culture and culture.
So making references is so common for us as well,

(13:55):
like in our lives,
you know,
from the,
since the time we've known each other,
which,
you know,
as if you didn't,
haven't listened to our first episode.
We've known each other since high school.
So,
you know,
that's another reason it felt um it natural,
it didn't feel like weird teenage speak because we were doing it too.
Right.
Well,
and I think that,

(14:16):
you know,
very much comes,
like you said,
from the writers because we're talking about because we grew up in a time of television,
right?
We grew up when sort of the golden age of television and you're starting to get,
you know,
80 sitcoms and all of and all of these movies and TV,
like,
it's pop culture became the cul,

(14:37):
like,
I don't know,
it became a part of the culture and it sort of,
like,
seeped into everyday language,
it seeped into,
to everything that we did.
Um,
and because if you didn't see that thing then what were like,
then you weren't talking about it because,
like,
when you were,
you know,
when you were in school and you were like,

(14:57):
oh,
did you see Knight Rider?
Oh,
did you see like,
you know,
whatever the show was the A team or like,
oh my gosh,
did you see what happened?
Because we didn't have the VCR.
So that was the,
that was the conversation,
like on the playground.
It was,
you know,
it was,
you know,
and at the water cooler at work it was everywhere.
It was,
you know,
culture was what we were talking about.

(15:20):
It wasn't,
I would imagine like,
none of,
none of us were like,
oh my gosh,
you know,
on occasion I will say because like,
if you think about it,
like PBS was probably like the thing that I would have equival it to like,
um high culture versus watching pop culture.
And rarely did I go to school the next day and be like,

(15:42):
oh my gosh,
did you see that thing on PBS?
Did you see that PBS special?
Hardly?
I will say though PBS was the thing that introduced me to doctor who,
so I can't complain.
But even then nobody knew what I was talking about when I was talking about that because here it was this,
like British thing that no one understood.

(16:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean,
I agree,
but at the same time I think part of the reason it works is the fact that they're in high school and so you're learning a lot of that stuff,
you know,
obviously there was an example where,
um,
I believe at one point in one of the classroom scenes,
like they're doing,
they're reading Shakespeare.
So we're reading Shakespeare and we're discussing that and,
you know,
when you're in school or whatever,

(16:23):
you know,
other academic quote unquote high culture,
um you know,
piece of literature or art that you may be discussing in school.
So it becomes normal that then you're talking about that with your friends too.
Um So you,
you know,
particularly when you are a student,
whether it's college or high school,

(16:43):
you're really going in and out between that,
that high culture and that pop culture.
And so that really feels authentic to that high school experience,
right?
And for them,
that high culture was like studying the monster of the week.
Like it was like,
OK,
now we have to get into the,
like the deep and dirty these old texts and trying to translate Latin and doing all this,

(17:06):
which is,
I mean,
that's a lot of stuff to have to navigate.
And so when,
when you exist,
doing that and you're spending nights and nights on end,
you know,
trying to translate different languages and Sumerian and doing all this other stuff,
the fact that you were able to connect back to sort of,

(17:27):
again your human side,
the humanness of it all.
It's just being able to be like a young person and just be a,
a kid and being able to have that conversation with your friends that don't revolve around all of this horror and craziness.
Yeah,
I guess a counterpoint to that would be I was,

(17:47):
and I mean,
this in the academic sense and a lot of my friends were not in the sense that we were also like an honors classes.
I was a nerd in high school.
I went to a very nerdy college,
like somebody liked to joke that my,
my college was basically like all the honor students went there and we hang out on like a weekend night discussing something like academic.

(18:08):
It was not unusual.
So to me that,
that was a part of my regular life too.
Like going back and forth between,
you know,
discussing the latest,
like rom com movie to then discussing,
I don't know,
some philosophical article we had read or something.
So that's what I loved about the show too.

(18:29):
You know,
you had all sides of it.
You had,
you know,
willow,
allowing,
being allowed to be her nerdiness and you reference that.
But then also Buffy and Xander had their own references and Giles,
even though he was,
you know,
considered master academic and have his academic references,
you know,
he obviously the ripper side of him,
he was waving into like,

(18:51):
you know,
seventies rock and,
you know,
so it shows that we're complicated,
people made up of multiple components.
Nobody's just one thing.
So this idea that you have to be like high culture or low culture is,
is utterly ridiculous,
which I think is what Buffy shows?
I think Buffy really is one of those first TV shows,

(19:12):
you know,
coming into,
you know,
what critics call the golden age of television or the,
I guess the second golden age of television.
Um because I think the fifties is referred to the first golden age,
don't quote me on that.
But I think so,
um you know,
Buffy starts to straddle that,
um you know,
showing that TV can be more than just like the Leave it to Beaver family sitcom.

(19:37):
Um You can really tell Shakespearean level stories through television.
Uh And,
and that's what,
you know,
I think that the show really demonstrates.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I lost my train of thought.
I do.

(19:57):
It's,
it's interesting because it,
it does,
I think one of the wonderful things that it does is it,
it does sort of build out this world and it really does create um an accessibility um to not only the world of Buffy,
but because they can talk about and relate to other things.
It,

(20:17):
it just,
it just puts it in a time and place that feels very,
um accessible when you're talking about.
Something that potentially could be so inaccessible as vampires and werewolves and things like that,
which may not necessarily resonate with everyone.
Yeah.
You know,
something you just said sparked a thought that I'd never thought of before.

(20:41):
Um,
and I don't know if this was,
there was any intentionality behind it,
but something that's interesting about the show and this may change in 20 years because we're really not that far.
Um From when the show aired,
the variety of references that are cover,
you know,
pop culture and culture references that really span eras,

(21:03):
they didn't,
they're not like you don't watch the show and it's like very specific all nineties references um does seem to give it that Timeless feel like when I just did my re-watch this last year and,
you know,
in prep for the podcast,
one of the things that I wasn't thinking as I rewatched,
it was like,
oh,
that reference is so dated,
you know,
as you do with some other shows,

(21:24):
you can go back and be like,
oh,
that is very dated reference.
Like it does not um age.
Wow.
But I do feel like all the pop culture culture references and Buffy age pretty well.
I mean,
some of the stuff may be a little like,
you know,
them talking about James Vader being super cute in the,
uh,
first,
you know,
in the pilot episode,
you know,
of course,

(21:45):
a little dated but,
like,
yeah,
exactly.
But in general,
I,
you know,
and that,
that's something that would strike me as I was watching,
like,
if the reference was felt dated.
So,
I think that's another,
um,
you know,
again,
whether that was intentional or not,
it's a great trick that really,
I think again gives Buffy its longevity.

(22:06):
Yeah.
Um Yes,
I would,
I would agree.
Yeah,
because they,
I mean,
from the things that they watch on TV and all of that stuff,
I think,
you know,
some of it was probably practical because of licensing and rights and doing all of that stuff.
And,
but also I think a lot of the references are just really are peppered enough through different decades to give it,

(22:29):
to give it that timeless field,
to give it this sense of longevity uh that are,
and again,
are kind of references that may or may not be because some of it are,
you know,
are comic book references and some of,
you know,
there's a lot of like references to comic books which even if you're not into comic books,

(22:51):
you still know who Superman is.
You still know who Batman is.
So like those references and stuff that though,
that there's some timelessness in them because the p because the pop culture references that they're making have already stood the test of time.
Yeah.
No,
that's a really good point.
Yeah,
very,
very true.
And so they're just referencing things that are already and then we just keep perpetuating that,

(23:17):
that story,
which I think is um which I think is really interesting how the,
how we can perpetuate what culture looks like based on what we choose to reference and how we choose to reference it.
One part we haven't talked about with culture and pop culture,
although you had a brief mention but is comic book culture.

(23:37):
And so you mentioned,
you know,
there are references to comic books,
but I read a really um interesting piece on looper and we can link to all these in our show notes in case you're interested in,
in some of the resources we used or you wanna delve into the Tommy Westfall theory.
But one of the what in this article is,
you know,
basically like the five ways that um Buffy change television and one of them was um you know,

(24:05):
basically bringing in comic book culture before or making it,
I should say making it more mainstream,
bring it to the mainstream before the really the movie started to.
Yes,
you know,
obviously there had been the Batman films and so those had been,
you know,
obviously huge hits and I'm talking about the ones with um Michael Keaton.

(24:26):
Um you know,
and,
and the DC universe was,
you know,
pretty well known mainstream wise,
even if like you're not into reading comic books,
most people grow up,
like you said,
knowing who Superman is,
no knowing who um Batman is.
And then obviously Spiderman from the Marvel,
but in general,
that's about it for mainstream,
at least,

(24:47):
certainly me,
I was not a,
a comic book kid.
Um but,
you know,
started to see that more in Buffy.
And then right about that time is when the x-men started coming out and then,
you know,
about 10 years after that is what is when you have the start of the Marvel cinematic universe,
but most of the comic book stuff was not super mainstream,

(25:08):
certainly not in the way we think of it today.
Um And,
and Buffy was,
you know,
because Joss Whedon was a comic book reader and a comic book fan,
you know,
he,
he brought that in.
Um and,
you know,
you have that in the character of Xander.
And then obviously you have that in the character of the trio um or the trio characters.
So it's just interesting that,

(25:28):
you know,
that's a,
I thought that was an interesting point to make about the impact Buffy had on bringing more comic book culture to the mainstream.
I definitely think that that's a valid argument to make or valid point to make.
Well,
yeah,
it absolutely is.
And I,
I would agree that it totally like normalized nerd culture or whatever,

(25:49):
like it sort of brought that into,
into a place where it was like,
oh Yeah,
it's so like,
oh this,
this really cool hip show about this,
you know,
this Slayer who this young woman who,
you know,
kicks butt and slays all the time.
And la,
la,
la,
la la,
which is really cool.
But then I can also geek out because they're making all these references that I'm like,

(26:11):
yeah,
I get it.
It's kind of like speaking this like secret language to people and you're like,
oh,
you're talking directly to me,
like,
I know what that is,
um which really gets you excited and gets you invested even more into the characters and more into um into the world.
And then the kind of the,
the parallel to that is bringing mainstream into the comic book world,

(26:35):
meaning like as you know,
Buffy ended or even while Buffy was still on,
you know,
they,
you had the fray comic series and then the,
you know,
the other comic book series that came from the Buffy Universe,
you know,
I certainly,
like I said,
I was not a comic book reader,
but when those started coming out,
I love Buffy so much.
I was like,
give me more content.
So I delved into those,

(26:56):
you know,
that was my entree into that universe because I loved the show.
So it kind of,
it went both ways,
going back to sort of the,
the convention like the um comics and stuff like that because like San Diego Comic Con,
like when you think about that,
that,
I mean,
that was,
it was a comic book convention.
That's how it started.

(27:16):
I mean,
it was about,
you know,
buying and selling and trading comic books and stuff like that and now has grown into this huge thing where,
you know,
Justin Timberlake is hanging out at,
you know,
Comic Con and all these big huge a list celebrities are hanging out at this thing that was started by Nerds who were just like,
I need the new Spiderman issue 14,

(27:40):
you know,
looking for like rare editions and stuff like that.
So I just think it's really interesting how um how it's all like blown up and,
and glowed up.
There's been a huge glow up of nerd culture and,
and what that looks like.
Um Yeah,
well,
I think it's also a statement to,
you know,
who's in charge of um mass communications.

(28:05):
And I think what you're seeing is,
you know,
particularly Gen X maybe let the end of Boomers,
but definitely Gen X and then moving into mill to millennials.
Um you know,
and I'm only talking about people who get into positions of power.
So like executives,
writers,
producers.
Um and again,
those the subsequent generations are coming up in those roles,

(28:28):
but that at the time,
you know,
those generations were raised much more on comic book nerd culture star Trek,
you know,
than,
or at least what we think of it today than,
than the previous generation So obviously,
when they got in charge,
those were the things that interested them.
Um so they,

(28:49):
you know,
they started to develop those um properties and then obviously the audience was there for it so that just,
you know,
kind of fed the beast,
so to speak,
so that,
you know,
I think that obviously plays into it as well,
um that,
you know,
and then the rise obviously of tech and,
and sort of the cool application uh of nerd culture through Silicon Valley and through technology.

(29:14):
Um And that was all happening at that time in the nineties.
The big um that.com Yeah,
boom and,
and all of that stuff happening,
I mean,
yeah,
and,
and like you're saying,
the people in power and like,
when you look back and we've talked about this sort of like,
again,
sort of the influence that these people have and um you know,
and these writers who are like,

(29:35):
oh,
I,
you know,
doing this and,
you know,
oh this thing is happening and then they keep like feeding into the beast,
they keep feeding into the beast of like,
oh this is cool,
like all this weird sci fi,
you know,
fantasy stuff is so cool and it's,
it's,
you know what everybody is into now.
Um So we've been discussing all of the pop culture and culture within Buffy.

(30:00):
Now we're gonna talk about Buffy and its cultural impact on other properties.
And so,
I mean,
obviously,
we think it's huge.
I'm assuming all other Buffy fans think it's huge.
But there's also a lot,
you know,
written out there about the impact that Buffy has had on other programs.

(30:21):
I'm just gonna do a quick reference.
I was reading a great piece from Vox.
This was an article from 2017.
Again,
we'll link to it in the show notes and they make a really good argument that Buffy built the model for today's um version of T V's storytelling with the primary,

(30:42):
like the fact that they would have a primary villain each season and you would encounter that villain every so often in an episode.
So it took the serialization of like soap operas and really brought it to mainstream drama television and then,
you know,
took it to the next level.
Um and that,
you know,

(31:02):
that,
that really built the model that we see nowaday in shows like the Walking dead,
supernatural Lost.
But then it also is being seen in non genre shows like Veronica Mars and Scandal.
I mean,
you just name a show,
it probably fits the model.
Um You know,
and that is a tremendous impact that this relatively little show on a relatively little network has had on 25 years of television.

(31:31):
The show that Dolly Parton calls this cute little show.
I just think it's a,
it's got Dolly behind it.
You knew it was gonna be like talk about cultural impact.
Um So what do you,
you know,
how do you,
how do you see that argument?
Well,
I see.
So I agree with that.
I think,
you know,

(31:51):
talking about how we tell stories,
um,
talking about how we look at teenagers,
um,
and young people and the stories that we are allowed to tell,
um,
surrounding them and how we tell them is really interesting.
Um,
you know,
and I was just,
I've been listening to and I know you've read,
um,
into every generation.

(32:12):
A Slayer is born.
Um,
and I'm just now giving that a listen.
Um,
and just hearing a lot about,
about like how,
um,
when they were getting into season four and with Willow being gay and how her ability to like the networks are like,
we don't wanna kiss,
we don't,
you know,
no kissing,

(32:32):
no,
no,
none of that.
And,
but then they finally got it and when that happened and sort of the wave of,
of,
of those stories that were able to be tell,
told,
um,
on television I think,
had a large part to do with,
with Buffy and,
and other teen shows too.
Like they were all sort of in the same area,

(32:53):
like pushing,
trying to push forward,
um,
how we tell these stories and how we,
how we,
um,
how we reflect what young people are going through.
Um,
and again,
it's not the,
like on a very special,
you know,
because there were,
but there were some,
some shows that did like Ally mcbeal did this whole lesbian kiss thing and it was such a huge thing and they built up to it for like weeks and weeks and weeks,

(33:21):
um and made a huge,
like,
huge advertising just to get ratings on it versus Buffy.
That was very much like,
hey,
this is just gonna happen.
We're not talking about it and it just happened in a show that had nothing to do with them and then it was boom the body and then willow and Jerry kiss and then we,
and then we move on.

(33:41):
And so I think taking all of those great life moments and just being like,
this is just life like these things are just gonna happen.
Um We don't have to like make everything a very special episode like it's,
it doesn't have to be that.
Um And I think we see less and less than that there.
I don't,
I don't remember the last time I saw a show that did like a very special episode of this thing or like,

(34:08):
I don't even feel like that's a thing anymore.
It's not,
I mean,
part of that is the excuse me,
the changing landscape of how we watch TV,
because that would be like a commercial on um network TV.
So it would entice you to watch and obviously,
you know,
ever,
you know,
between people are watching in so many different ways and even if you're watching broadcast television,

(34:31):
but you're watching it on streaming,
you're not gonna see it in the same way as if you were actually watching it through broadcast television.
Um So that's,
you know,
that's a big part of it,
but that's,
but it's true.
I mean,
I think also that was happening even before streaming became like the way we watch TV.
You know,
we were starting to lose that.
Um I just want to say to you to go back to the box article.

(34:53):
So we don't do.
The author is dirty.
They weren't saying like Buffy invented this form of storytelling,
but they built on what had come before and it really ended up setting the model that we have nowadays,
you know,
I mean,
there were certainly other shows that had,
um,
you know,
either serialization or,
you know,
had multiple elements to it beforehand,

(35:16):
you know,
they were obviously building on the work of the X files and to reference uh an earlier show saying elsewhere and something like Hill Street Blues,
but it just combined it all in such a new way that it became the standard bearer,
ended up becoming the standard bearer of what we expect from television nowadays,
right?

(35:36):
And I think too,
because there are so many of those writers who have gone on to do other works that,
that into,
into building um all of that stuff.
And also,
you know,
and going back to the musical episode too,
like be there were musical episodes of television before once more with feeling came out,

(35:56):
there was an entire show that was a musical called Cop Rock,
which was terrible.
Cop Rock,
which was awful.
But,
but it wasn't.
But when they went once more with feeling happened,
everybody seemed to be like,
oh,
that was super fun.
That's how you,

(36:17):
oh,
that's how I can,
like,
tell my story,
keep the story moving forward and also had this fun thing and give it a reason for the singing and the dancing and all of that stuff.
Um And where after that,
we got,
you know,
the musical episode of Scrubs,
we started to see more shows do it because they saw how successful it could be,
especially when you had really good writers behind the making of those things.

(36:43):
Um And even the guys who did the new musical episode of the uh of a strange new worlds,
the Star Trek uh musical,
which is a great episode,
I think.
Anyway,
I think it's a really good episode.
Um They referenced,
they were like,
we went back to once more with feeling for the jumping off point because that was the blueprint that we needed to work off of in order to make this episode successful.

(37:07):
Yeah,
I mean,
yeah,
that episode certainly set the bar for any future musical episodes in television.
Um And as you said,
I mean,
they did it because it was well written.
It fit the storyline and it fit the world,
right?
You know.

(37:28):
Um And then how do you,
and then how do you,
how do you make a musical episode because you have the talented cast because you have like an amazing crew that can make this happen.
How do you fit that into your world where it makes sense,
which is why the musical episode of Scrubs worked really,
really well because they made it make sense for them.

(37:50):
Um Where C Rocket was like,
why are you singing Cops?
None of this makes any sense.
Like,
what's the impetus for this?
What's going on?
And that wasn't just a one off episode.
That was the premise of the whole show for the entire,
the entire series was like a musical and it was like a courtroom drama but like it never worked.
It was like,

(38:10):
if Blue Bloods was a musical so weird,
you're like,
hm,
maybe not,
it didn't work and it was highly confusing now.
But speaking of references,
it makes for great pop culture references about like an example of something that does not work because I always think about it,
like gets reference in an episode of Gilmore Girls and it was like,

(38:33):
so such a perfect reference in that,
in that episode anyway.
Oh my goodness.
Um Speaking of Gilmore Girls,
and again,
this is,
we're talking about sort of the,
the impact like,
I mean,
even Gilmore Girls makes references to Buffy.
Oh my God,
there's,
there's so shows and movies out there that reference Buffy kind of insane.

(38:57):
It's weird.
And I tried to do,
I did a,
I did a digging and I was like,
there were so many and I was like,
there's no way to go through all of them.
Um,
but I did pull some of my favorites and probably I won't even go through all of them.
Um,
here because there's just so many,
but one that I thought was a couple that I think are really interesting.
Um One,

(39:18):
uh and once upon a time,
Jane Espenson who was a writer for that,
um she used the Glottal Stop.
Oh,
no matter how many times I've watched that episode,
I still don't really understand what Giles is talking about.
I've even like Googled it and I still like,
what is he talking about anyway?

(39:39):
Sorry.
Is that,
so that part,
I guess.
But yeah,
I don't know why it's like anyway.
So,
um but that symbol is used in once upon a time.
That's so funny.
And then also going back to once more with feeling,

(40:00):
there's an episode of Sesame Street that references Buffy.
No.
So as um as Chris goes to the LA,
he goes to the,
I guess one of the,
the people,
he goes to the laundry with a mustard stained red shirt and Elmo magically makes everyone sing about how to clean his favorite shirt,

(40:21):
how to get the mustard out,
how to get the mustard out.
See?
That's awesome.
That's like,
you know,
watching animated movies where like,
you know,
somebody behind the scenes was like a fan and it's not for the kids,
it's for the adults who watch it with the kids.
It's just like,
you're like,
thank you,
thank you for seeing me as a parent or an aunt or an uncle or a babysitter,

(40:45):
adult babysitter who has to like watch these kids program and you're like,
there's still something in it for me.
Um There's,
of course,
I've mentioned this before,
so I,
I probably,
I won't mention it again,
but the one from um the magicians.
Um Yeah,
that's literally one of my favorite references.
It's so great.

(41:05):
Um Charmed,
make mentions of it,
which is hilarious because it was a show that was,
it's contemporary like this and this was made in the first season.
So this was like season,
season two of Buffy was airing and this was made in an episode like towards the end of Char's first season.
Um And they were like,

(41:27):
investigate,
they were in a mausoleum.
Um Like,
I think it's Prue and Phoebe are in a mausoleum and Prue says there might be zombies or vampires present and Phoebe goes well,
where's Buffy when you need her?
Just an offhanded thing.
Um They make,
they make a few references to Buffy.

(41:47):
Um And then most recently,
um and I don't know if you've seen this,
you might have seen this online um in the Netflix film.
Leave the world behind at the very end of the film and this isn't,
this might be a little spoil prob,
it probably is.
Yes,
spoiler alert if you have not watched,

(42:08):
leave the world behind.
Um But at the end of the movie,
the young girl,
like goes into a room and there's just like a wall of media.
It's like all of these like DVD S and all of this other stuff and there is and on the wall you can see it,
there is Buffy,
like all uh all seasons of Buffy are like lined up next to.

(42:33):
Um That's awesome.
So yeah,
it's just,
it's continuing to make um you know,
to be a part of the lexicon and to be a part of um of who we are.
OK.
I have to share my two.
I did do research,
these are just my personal ones.
So like the one that was most unexpected as far as I can remember,

(42:56):
um comes from,
there was a movie based on a true story called Calendar Girls and it was about,
it was a British film about a group of older British women and like a small village and they needed to raise funds.
And so they decided to do like pin up girl Calendar and it becomes like a big thing.
So in one of the scenes in the bed,

(43:18):
the bedroom of one of the women,
the main characters and in her teenage son's bedroom and they're like spanning his bedroom for some reason and they right above his headboard on the wall is a giant poster of Buffy.
I think she's dressed kind of like season three.
Season four.
I was like,

(43:38):
oh my God.
And this was like,
not long after I think the movie came out around the time that Buffy ended.
So like,
yeah,
there were Buffy references but not to the degree that we expected today.
So I was like blown away when I saw that movie and I was like,
oh MG,
I did not expect a Buffy reference in this movie.
And I was like,

(43:58):
it was awesome.
It made me so happy and obviously I've never forgotten it.
Um It was great.
The other 11 of my other favorites and this is,
it makes me happy because it's like to me it's the one show and this is my opinion.
Everyone's got their own opinion.
That is the true successor to Buffy.
And it more about it matches the show stylistically for humor,

(44:22):
for teenagers,
witty dialogue,
serialization,
even though it's not a genre show.
And that is Veronica Mars.
And in the Veronica Mars movie,
there's a scene I won't give too much away in case you wanna watch the series and you don't want to spoil.
But basically like all hell breaks loose in a scene at a bar or like a club in the movie and things are going crazy.

(44:48):
And one of the characters looks at Veronica goes,
it is on a hell mouth the town that Veronica lives in.
And I was like,
yes,
that is a great Buffy reference and it was like,
so appropriately used.
It made me super happy.
So anyway,
those are my two favorite references to date.
And as we,

(45:08):
you know,
as things go on,
there will be more and more references because more and more people are discovering Buffy all the time.
And that's the thing that I really like about the show is that,
that like talk about cultural impact is that 25 years later,
generations of young people are finding the show and going oh my gosh,
this is really great.
Um And that's so cool.

(45:31):
I love that about the show.
Yeah,
I do too.
I mean,
it doesn't surprise me and yet at the same time it's mind blowing um that that's still happening that people are still discovering it,
still loving it.
Um You know,
even though there are some things that might not hold up to how we look at society and culture,

(45:54):
but yet the core of it,
the core character,
the core dialogue,
the core storyline still speak to us,
which I mean,
that speaks to,
to other works of art that we still go back to time and time again.
I mean,
looking at like,
you know,
Jane Austen books or Shakespeare or,
you know,

(46:14):
um the operas that people still love to listen to or the classical music that just is,
you know,
timeless to some degree.
And I'm sure that's the case in,
you know,
other countries and other cultures,
obviously,
we're speaking to American western European culture.
But,
you know,
I'm sure that's the case in other cultures and other countries with their culture and pop culture as well.

(46:35):
It's just,
it's really cool that,
that Buffy gets to be sort of in that as of now in that category.
Yeah,
it's really telling this timeless story and it is telling a universal story that's not,
and that's not a news story per se.
Like she's not going through because the whole point of it is that she was going through high school and she was dealing with all the stuff that we were dealing with,

(46:59):
which made her so relatable.
But,
you know,
they just turned it into,
you know,
high school as hell as the metaphor and all of that stuff.
So we really just build into it.
But then,
you know,
as you get later on and they start dealing with themes of family and,
and all of this other stuff and you know,
and finding your way and what,
what that all means.

(47:20):
It,
it just,
it's,
it's something that you can all relate to and take the monsters out.
You still get this like really lovely story um of a group of young people just trying to find their way in the world and the monster of it all,
it just makes it even more fun and juicy and a little bit,

(47:43):
quite frankly,
a little bit more palatable and more relatable than just watching,
like a regular teen drama.
Yeah.
Agreed.
I would agree that I think that's part of its longevity is it's not just a regular teen drama.
Um,
that may be of its time and place.

(48:03):
Those supernatural elements.
Take it to the next level.
Right.
And maybe the monsters are the,
you know,
are ironically enough that spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down.
Like,
it just makes things more like relatable to me because I'm like,
there's some separation there.
Um,
yeah.
Well,
it certainly takes two very well known stories that of teenagers,

(48:29):
you know,
high school drama and the hero's journey and combines them in a really interesting way that makes you want to come back to it time and time again.
Well,
at least it does for us and for a lot of people,
not just us.
And I think this is a good segue into,
um,
our last topic about,

(48:50):
um,
sort of the academics of Buffy and Buffy studies.
Um,
the fact that that is even a thing that Buffy studies is a thing means that people are going back to it over and over again and that,
that well has not been tapped dry yet by any means more so,
um,

(49:10):
because more so than any other show.
Um Buffy has had more academic papers written about it than any other show.
Um And our current pop culture history,
I think,
maybe ever,
probably ever,
I would say,
I mean,
there's a,
you've not read the article,
there's a great article from slate in 2012 that basically took a look at pop culture properties,

(49:38):
you know,
and it started with the fact that there had been so much academic um studies are written about on the alien uh the four alien films.
I don't know,
I was gonna say trilogy,
but I'm like,
there's four.
And so they,
they were kind of curious,
like,
is it the most written about,
you know,
pop culture property or film or?

(49:58):
And so they delved into it and,
you know,
they,
they basically searched through um if you read the article,
they kind of explain their methodology and they're like,
we know it's not a fully exhaustive,
but they kind of took a look at and again,
this is 2012,
I'm sure there's been some shifts.
Um But essentially they looked at the alien quadri as they said,

(50:20):
The Wire,
the television show The Wire uh at the time,
the Matrix trilogy,
obviously,
now it's a quadri the Simpsons and Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Buffy the Vampire exceeded them by far in the number of academic papers or study had been done about the show.
So they found for Alien,

(50:41):
it was 86 papers for the wire.
It was 85 for the matrix.
It was 71 for the Simpsons.
It was 29 for Buffy,
the Vampire Slayer.
It was 200 plus and that was in 2012.
So I'm sure it's only grown from there because there's also an online journal um of Buffy studies.

(51:01):
Um So,
you know,
there and that's been going on for gosh,
close to 20 years.
So,
you know,
they come out usually 22 times a year.
So they're always having papers that are in there,
which you can find online.
It's open access to anyone.
Again,
we'll link to it in our show notes.
But like,
that's mind blowing.

(51:23):
I mean,
especially since,
you know,
pop culture studies is,
I think really only come into its own in the last 20 years.
It was,
I don't know about when you were in college,
but I,
there wasn't a lot of it going on when I was in college and the,
and it was more film oriented,
it certainly wasn't sure television oriented.
So,
you know,

(51:43):
I'm not surprised that Buffy is so high because as we're doing this podcast,
we're delving into all these same topics.
I mean,
not to the same level as a research academic paper,
but there is so much to delve into.
So it doesn't surprise me that one of the,
that the highest one is Buffy,
but I do hit those scholarly papers when we do some research I know,

(52:07):
I know you think they're helpful but not helpful because they're so like specific,
right?
They're very specific to.
But I think it,
it just sort of taps into this idea that there because there is so much more behind the show and not only that it's what,
what audiences are getting out of it and what audiences are being able to,

(52:29):
how audiences are able to contextualize their life experience and what's happening in the world based on this one piece of,
on this one piece of fiction um that resonated with them so much so that they were like,
oh,
and I can use this as the springboard for this really,
like,

(52:50):
interesting and thoughtful thing that could have like,
so social and cultural impact.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I mean,
that's how the,
the Buffy studies really started was these were,
you know,
professors who were fans of the show and they thought,

(53:10):
hey,
you know,
like,
I wanna write a paper on this and somebody else wrote a paper on this and then,
you know,
they knew each other and they're like,
hey,
we should get a conference together and so a conference started and then,
you know,
it just grew from there but it,
it came from a place of already being a fan.
It wasn't,
um,
you know,
an academic looking at it and saying,

(53:30):
oh,
hey,
this show is really popular.
Maybe we should study it.
Um,
you know,
it really came from a,
from a place of fandom and these fans just happened to be in academia,
which I think is super cool.
I also like that Stacey Abrams is a fan,
like one of the most famous fans,
Stacey Abrams.
I love that.

(53:51):
Stacey Abrams is a nerd like us.
So,
yeah,
to Stacey Abrams because we're like from Georgia.
So we would love to have you on the pod anytime.
Come on,
we'll talk about Buffy with you any time at all.
Um But yeah,
I think it's,
it again.

(54:12):
Yeah,
it's a testament to the show.
Um that not only was there an interest and there was substance to write academic papers and have conferences about the show but that they're still continuing on today.
Um You know,
and I think it's really interesting because I have gone through to like,

(54:34):
you know,
look and see what the,
the papers that are in the journal are about.
And it's a lot of comparison to,
you know,
philosophy and other,
you know,
major works of um literature or plays.
Um which is it just again,
it shows you the depth of the storytelling in Buffy that they can be compared to such other works of art that have their own depth of storytelling and can,

(55:02):
you know,
stand,
um stand up to that comparison.
Yeah,
I,
I would totally agree with that and I should have earmarked this um because,
and one of the books and again,
this is all going to come back full circle um talking about.

(55:29):
So,
um in the book,
there's a book uh Why Buffy Matters.
Yeah.
Um by Rhonda Wilcox.
Yes.
And she's actually one of the founders of the slave Journal and the Buffy conference.
Um that I think that was,
that was where I learned about it.
And I think that was the first book to come out uh way back just around the time that the show ended.

(55:53):
Yeah.
Um And there's a chapter in here just talking about the poetry of Ts Elliot.
Um And it's called Ts Elliot comes through on television uh and referencing Restless and just how,
um even just talking about like comparing that work,
uh the work of Ts Elliot and um one of his poems to Restless and sort of the similarities and the comparisons of that,

(56:17):
which I just think,
I mean,
I think it's,
it's fascinating,
I mean,
and like we've said before,
there's been so many references within and without,
uh you know,
they do death of a salesman and they do um um Shakespeare or is it Oedipus that they do?

(56:38):
Oedipus?
It's Oedipus.
Yeah.
Um You know,
there's,
there's mention to,
you know,
these classic works and things throughout,
throughout the series.
So I just,
I think,
you know,
there's a lot to delve into the,
some of the other ones that I have looked up and when I was doing some of my research,
you know,
a lot of talk about feminism and um and like different ways of feminism and how Buffy fits into those.

(57:03):
It talks about family structures.
So there's a lot of uh sociological and anthro anthropological uh implications and studies using Buffy as a reference point and as a jump jumping off point to,
to engage people into those conversations.
Yeah.
And I would say if you didn't know,

(57:26):
you know,
there were all these um academic inspired books written about the show,
you should definitely check it out.
Actually goodreads.
Again,
we can link to it has a good list of book of Buffy academia books because they're written for people not in academic academia.
Um So they're very readable.

(57:48):
Um Even though they're delving into,
you know,
maybe some deep topics.
Um and then obviously there's ones that are out there,
they're a little more um more fun,
but I definitely recommend why Buffy matters.
The Art of Buffy the Vampire Slayer,
which is a,
is what Charles was just referencing there.
It's just fun.

(58:08):
You know,
if you love the show to,
to delve into it in,
in a deeper new way.
And so,
and I will give you a little story,
right?
So here's,
here's my day,
right.
Here's what happened today.
So and again,
bring it all back full circle.
So,
doing some research for the show and trying to figure out some stuff,

(58:30):
um I found this paper uh called pop uh Popular Culture Association American Culture Association.
Um It was a joint conference in Toronto in 2020.
Uh And the study was called uh what would Buffy do the use of popular culture culture examples and undergraduate library instruction.

(58:56):
So I was like,
sure,
why not?
Let's go through this.
But basically,
it was asking librarians if they use pop culture um and pop culture references as a way to teach undergraduate students how to do,
how to research their papers.
And some,
and there were some that said yes and some that said no.

(59:16):
And so it went back and forth um talking about this and one of the shows that came up was Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
And so talking about how um how they use popular shows and things like that to get their undergraduate students excited about researching things and um and,

(59:37):
and looking for that.
Uh So one of them said that uh one of the teachers said,
yeah,
uh they use Buffy as a way to show like the magic of books and how uh how you can get into it.
The thing that I found just sort of interesting and ironic was that while I'm looking up this work,
I'm,

(59:57):
I go to the library,
which I had not been to in a very long time,
the library on campus.
Um and I go to the,
the library and I'm like,
I'm looking for these books.
I need to find these books.
And so she give me the reference.
And I go and I look,
and that's the video that I sent you where it was like these stacks and stuff of books.
And I get to the aisle and I can't get down the aisle because the,

(01:00:22):
the,
the,
the bookshelves are like,
pressed up against each other.
And I was like,
well,
darn it,
what am I supposed to do?
I'd never seen this before and then I kind of look around and I see tracks on the floor and I'm like,
oh,
and there's a little button and I pressed it and moved along the side and I was like,
what is happening?
And there was just a sea.

(01:00:43):
It was like a row,
a row of like Buffy books and books about house and books about like all of these sort of pop culture reference books all just sitting here in one.
And it got me so excited about,
I was like,
there's so much to read about all of this stuff and what you know.
And so,
and like to the point of the paper,

(01:01:05):
yeah,
using doing research for the show,
got me excited about doing more research and learning how to be a better researcher and looking for those things.
So I think again,
there's a valuable tool and a valuable lesson in using something that people are genuinely excited about in order to get them to,

(01:01:25):
to understand something that they may not truly understand.
Yeah,
like a deeper concept.
Um Yeah,
absolutely.
Your reaction just makes me think you were like,
Belle and the beast introduced her to his library.
I really genuinely got excited like so much you guys so much so that I literally stopped what I was doing.

(01:01:46):
Like when it opened up,
I went and closed the the bookshelf back closed and it was like Kate.
Oh my goodness.
This is when sent a video of of the bookshelf movie.
I was so amazed.
Um has their culture.
I'm easily amused.

(01:02:06):
I love it.
It makes me like nerdy library library,
loving heart happen.
And I was a library kid from the early days too because I in elementary school,
I used to be the library assistant at our elementary school library.
And so I would go into the library.
I would have a period where I would get out of class and go to the library and resell books.

(01:02:30):
I knew the dewey decimal system.
Like the back of my,
you could have assisted Giles.
I could have,
I would have been all about the research then.
I don't know it now.
No,
I know nothing.
Now my library study skills are completely atrophied at this point.

(01:02:53):
I'm with you.
So that's pop culture in the Buffy verse.
Well,
thank you everyone for joining us for this episode.
We hope you enjoyed it.
If you want to reach out to us,
you can find us at a Buffy podcast at gmail.com and you can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at a Buffy podcast.

(01:03:15):
So if you're not already following us,
definitely do that.
Yes.
So again,
tell everyone that you have ever met uh about a girl.
I got in Buffy podcast and listen to us wherever you get your podcast and please don't forget to like and subscribe.
Um You know,
we would be happy for a five star review.
Um We would love to hear from you and,

(01:03:38):
and let us know.
Absolutely.
Thanks so much.
All right,
we'll see you next time.
Bye.