#25 Luke Worsfold | Addiction, past trauma, subconcious mind

Luke has triumphed over addiction in his own life and emerged as a Specialist Addiction Counselor guiding others to recovery.

 

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Luke and I begin by walking through what advice he would give to a client struggling with addition on a first visit 00:00:52.  We then talk about how lifestyle can affect addiction and can hurt or help addictive thoughts 00:31:00.  We also discussed if it would make sense to take the cigarette approach of educating people with harsh facts and images to reduce the frequency of other bad behaviors such as fast food 00:52:25

 

GO CHECK OUT LUKE

Website: https://www.insideaddiction.co.uk/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inside.addiction/ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lisainsideaddiction 

 

PODCAST INFO

Podcast Website: https://www.bangtwothree.com 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bangtwothree 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BangTwoThree 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey beautiful people and thank youfor listening to the Bang 2 3
podcast. If you find this funny,entertaining, or insightful, feel
free to leave us a review on Applepodcast or if you want to make my day,
go show us some love on our Instagrampage because I love each and every
single one of you. Thank you forlistening. So you run a business?

(00:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And who is yourclientele and what do you do for
them? Yeah. So the main clients areentrepreneurs and C-suite
executives and managers,typically in London, but we do work
with clients all over the globe. Andthe main struggles they have is
drinking and doing coke. And we takethem through a unique program that

(00:46):
integrates one-to-one phonecalls, coaching sessions, videos,
and worksheets and allows them to gothrough an eight-week journey to
get their drinking and drug useunder control and so are their
lives. Okay, so let's go through ahypothetical right now. I am the
executive. I am the freaking CEO ofthe Bang 2 3 Incorporated and I just

(01:07):
can't stop fucking doing coke. Ilove strippers. I love the party
scene. What does our first sessionlook like? What's your initial
advice to me? Yeah, so the first partof the journey is really bringing
the behavior from the subconsciousto the conscious mind. Oftentimes,
we've been running these patternsfor so long, just drinking, doing

(01:28):
coke, getting hookers, just likeover and over and over again. It's
just automatic. It's just Friday,it's Tuesday, who gives a shit? It's
like War for Wall Street, right?Just everywhere in the office, you
know, it's just fucking crazy atthis point. So the behavior is so
automatic that it's hard to even seethat it's going on. So the first step
is to really bring it from thesubconscious to the conscious

(01:48):
mind. And I do that by gettingclients to journal out through the
worksheets exactly what'shappening in their mind and taking
them through it. And once we canstart to be aware of it, then we can
start to take a step back and look atit and understand what's happening
and go from having it habitautomatically to then watching it
happen. And then you still fucked upand then going a step back and being,

(02:11):
OK, I know this is about to happen.Let me kind of go around it and change
my behavior. And that's the maincore for a step in the process. Oh,
that's brilliant. That's great. Sowhat if what if I bring it from the
back of the brain to the front of tothe conscious? And I'm like, OK, so
I'm aware that I'm doing this shitand I'm kind of aware that it's
making me feel bad, which is why I'mtalking to you. Yeah. But but you

(02:35):
know what? It's not worth it to stopbecause guess what? Strippers and
cocaine are fucking awesome. Soit's just kind of like, OK, it's to
the front of my brain. But I said,hey, you know what, Luke? Like this
shit is way too fun to stop. Whatwould be your advice? Yeah. I mean,
some people, if they're not ready,they're not ready. But a lot of times

(02:55):
it's a balance on one side. You havethe Coke, the hookers, all of the fun
stuff. But on the other side, youhave the consequences, your
performance of work. You may loseyour multimillion pound job or your
multimillion pound business. Yourpartners normally had the stop or
else talk with you and you're aboutto lose your relationship. You're
not being the best parent for yourkids. And you're recognising the

(03:16):
shame and the guilt the next day of,you know, cheating on your partner
or doing coke or just feeling on amassive come down and not
performing. So it's always abalance. And when people start to
feel this side of the balance, thenegative build up too much, that's
when they contact me. So normally,by the point they've reached out for
help, they are ready. And they'relike, I don't want to be like this

(03:36):
anymore. I don't want to beexperienced in all these negative
consequences. I'm ready for changeand I want to move my life forward.
And with that kind of person who'sready and willing and in a lot of pain
in some sense, I can definitely helpthem transform, taking them
through the program. That's thekey, right? OK, so you got it. So by me
going to see you, right? By me beingthe CEO of this billion dollar

(03:59):
company and going to see you, I'mkind of admitting that, yeah, you
know, and I'm kind of over this shit,right? This, yeah, this is so I'm
kind of already to that step of, OK, Irealize that a change needs to
happen. But I don't see how peoplecan step away from fucking cocaine

(04:19):
and drugs. Like how because it's soamazing because I don't see how
because because right. It's like Isee it as a scale, right? In the left
hand, I have like blow and hookers.And in the right hand, I have like
boring shit, a wife, a job, you know,maybe kids. I don't understand. Do

(04:40):
you ever see that light go off wherewhere some where the scales tip
back? And now that that executive issaying, you know what? Hey, I know
drugs are fun, but this life shit isreally worth it. How have you ever
seen that that switch go off insomeone? Yeah, yeah. So I've helped

(05:01):
lots of clients go through thatjourney. And I've also been through
it myself and had that switchflipped to and a lot of clients there
on what I would call the pleasurecontinuum. So it's very
pleasurable, very like a big peak togo and do all of this fun stuff. But
then you also have the negative,which is down. So if you put it on a
graph, it would be very, very highwhen you're doing all the drugs and

(05:21):
very, very low when you're gettingthe Bollock ins or the work stuff or
the partner stuff or the come downthe next day. Then you go back up to
get all the endorphins and back downagain. It's very like higher peaks
and low drops up and down, up anddown, up and down. And that's what I
call the pleasure continuum.You're just seeking pleasure and
you can get pleasure from loads ofdifferent things that just
endorphins in your brain, such ashookers, coke, drinking, all that

(05:43):
kind of stuff. But what I takeclients on a journey to do is the same
thing that I've done. Is go more tothe fulfillment continuum, which
is more like a long form wave. Sothere's no like major highs of doing
coke and hookers. Maybe it's likeplaying golf or seeing your kids or
doing something fun or having abirthday party or something like
relatively calm. But then when yougo down, it's not such a big low. And

(06:05):
you're just like having a day at workor, you know, looking after the kids
when they're being a nightmare orsomething like that. It's a bit more
calmer and it's a bit more of like along form wave rather than the big
peaks and troughs. And I thinkthat's the sort of shift in focus and
somewhat lifestyle that peopleneed to make in order to stop chasing
that hire and going just for thatpleasure all the time. I think we

(06:29):
could both admit that this is this isbuilt into a lot of people, right?
Addiction is a huge fucking issue,huge issue. And it's it's going up
and to the right, right? It's notit's not coming down. Yeah. So kind
of my takeaway is that humans, atleast some humans are wired to have
these high ups and low downs, right?For whatever reason in our past, the

(06:50):
past whatever millions of yearswe've been humans, we've kind of
like been wired to crave this shit.Yeah. Why do you think humans are
wired to create this high ups and lowdowns? Where is this coming from? So
I think it's evolutionary in orderto survive, whether that's through
honey, whether that was hundreds ofyears ago. And we used to like honey

(07:10):
when we used to come across it orwhether that sex. Obviously, sex is
very pleasurable. We're wired tomove towards these pleasurable
experiences. But our mind in manyways was designed for a world or the
existed hundreds of years ago. Ourbrains very outdated to TikTok and,
you know, cocaine and all that anddrinking and all that kind of

(07:31):
cultural stuff, especially in theUK and obviously the Marriker of a
lot of challenges with drugs aswell. So culturally, things have
changed now. And we're not in thatworld from all those years ago. But
our brain is still wired to seek thepleasure over and over again. And we
get trapped in this cycle where ourbrain just craves those endorphins
over and over again, and we don'thave any boundaries. And also in

(07:53):
some sense, it soothes us right?We're in some kind of distress,
whether that's conscious orunconscious or emotionally or
mental. And then we go and use drugsor drink or some kind of vice. And
then we feel less distress. So insome ways it works, but it's just a
very destructive cycle. Andthere's better ways to feel
distress, soothe our emotions andthen feel less distress rather than

(08:15):
being in the destructive ways. Ifthat makes sense. That does make
sense. But it kind of what you'resaying is right. Then I guess some
people have different brainsbecause some people can do heroin
and wake up tomorrow and be like, oh,yeah, that was fun. I don't I don't
care if I never do it again. And somepeople, even if they just look at not
even heroin, if they look atfreaking McDonald's French fries,

(08:38):
They'll eat them every day for 10days. So what's up with that
disconnect? Maybe some people werejust the ancestors were more
disciplined or what's up with that?So what I would say about that side of
things is some people have like apre-disposition the
pre-disposition to having more oflike an addictive personality in a

(09:02):
sense and seeking more addictivesubstances. But where that comes
from in my perspective is from theunderlying childhood experiences
and the trauma that they've beenthrough then makes it harder for
them to regulate their emotions andthe way they've found to cope with
their emotions and not being able toregulate them and numb them out is
through drinking or cocaine or somekind of vice like that. Other people

(09:26):
have different vices, whether thatmay be food or work or something else
that's not related to drugs andalcohol. But some people just
gravitate towards drug andalcohol. Some people may be kids,
some women have a lot of kids and theyget a lot of love and fulfilment from
their kids, but that can also becomeunhealthy because they're just
having loads and loads of kidswithout any boundaries around it.

(09:46):
So it depends on your trauma, butbased on the trauma that people
experience, a lot of clients I workwith gravitate towards soothing
their emotions or numbing theiremotions by doing drinking drugs.
So it's just what they've grown uparound. Like for me, I grew up around
alcohol, I grew up around drugs. Sotherefore that's what I primarily

(10:08):
gravitated towards as a man. Andthat became my advice that I
couldn't keep the lid on. And thatbecame challenging for me. So is it
safe to say that since addiction isincreasing, that we can say that
this generation's parents werereally shitty because we're full of
trauma? Well, I don't think parentsare intentionally causing us

(10:33):
trauma. Some parents do, and that'sreally shitty in the world. But I
think generally parents are justtrying to do their best. They'll
always operate and the best they cando, but sometimes their best isn't
the most amazing condition for achild. Now when a child needs an
admit, they interpret that in acertain way. Like my mum, her

(10:54):
journey was drinking and doingdrugs. So therefore me as a child, I
didn't have all my needs met. Youknow, it wasn't necessarily that
she was like the most shitty personin the world. It was just whatever
she was going through in her journeymeant that she turned to drinking
drugs. Now that still left me withunmet needs that didn't get met and
left me with challenges as I wasgrowing up in my younger years and

(11:17):
adolescent years, which thenresulted in me not being able to
regulate my emotions. So I don'tthink it's that all parents are
necessarily shitty. I just thinkit's a natural process in many ways
that parents just can't meet all ofour needs because they have a life
and have their own trauma and theirown stuff going on and people
separating and those differentthings happen in life. They just

(11:38):
make it challenging for parents tobe kind of quote unquote perfect
parents that produce someone whonever has any trauma. Look, I'm not
going to let you get off that easy.Listen, my parents were shit. My
parents were shit. They were allshit. This whole generation of
parents are terrible. I'm justjoking. I don't know. So where are

(11:58):
your parents like this? Oh, Luke.Luke. No. Oh, no, Luke. Luke, you are
putting on the therapist hat rightnow and you are trying to get into my
shit. Luke, you're going to getinto. I had I had I had great parents
man compared to everybody else. Ireally did. I had fantastic

(12:21):
parents. My I say this though, I dohave a history of addiction or
whatever in my family. My motherpassed away whenever I was 16 years
old. She overdosed on drugs. She wasa drug addict my whole life. But I had
great parents. So are you kind ofgetting at let's just talk about

(12:44):
adults. Yeah. And I'm kind of thecause and effect that I hear you
outlining is that adults cannotregulate their emotions by
themselves. So thus they take abinky, put it in their mouth and a lot
of times that binky is addiction,drugs, alcohol, porn, tiktok and

(13:06):
that binky helps them regulateemotions. And this process of
regulating emotions is sodifficult and painful that
whenever we can't do it ourselves,we search for that binky, a.k .a.
drugs. Yeah, yeah. And ironically,the thing is that it doesn't
necessarily help us regulateemotions. It just helps us numb

(13:27):
them, which is, I guess, is a form ofregulation. But it just helps us
numb them and forget about them. Butit normally comes with other
emotions that come after us. Andthen you have the shame and the guilt
of engaging in this behavior andimpact that has on the people around
you, which then creates moreemotions, which then you don't know
how to handle. So then you should goand use again. And that's what
creates the cycle of addiction. Sowhat if a guy or girl had a fucking

(13:50):
great childhood, right? They don'thave a lot of childhood trauma and
they just get caught up in it. Howdoes that happen? What do you think
is the biggest leading cause forthat situation? Yeah, so I think a
lot of people that I've surveyed andworked with when we've ran
different assessments and surveyswith clients all experienced in
different challenges. Some of themmay be like a loss of someone they

(14:13):
love or care about. Some people thatmay have been cheated in the past or
been with someone who drinks anduses drugs like a long term partner.
So there's many different thingsfrom all the clients I've worked
with. The clients go through andthey all hit one of very, very
different impact points in theirlife. So if someone's had a perfect

(14:33):
childhood or a perfect life,sometimes that can be a challenge in
itself. If a client, that clientI've worked with whose parents have
been multi-millionaires, forexample, and they've never had to do
anything in their life and alwayshad money, they've always had
everything, that is a challenge initself. Because they're like,
well, I've never had to work foranything. I've never had to go
through any pain. I've never had tofeel any emotions. Everything has

(14:55):
been so shielded for me. I've alwayshad money and it's never been a
problem. So sometimes what you cansee as no form or in quotation marks
or no challenges in life, they'vehad it easy. Their parent was a
billionaire. It doesn't make adifference. How can they have had it
hard? Really, that was very, veryhard indeed because they did have
all these problems. And thechallenging thing when you're at
that point is you feel like you can'thave any problems because you then

(15:18):
get in a muddle because you're like,well, my parents are millionaires.
How can I have any problems? Ishouldn't have any problem. I
should be fine. I've goteverything, haven't I? And then
that's a problem in itself. So whenyou get into the inception of it, I
would categorically argue thatthere's always some layer of
challenges, some layer of lack orsome need not being met no matter

(15:38):
which way that kind of works out. Sotherefore, and I would even go
further to say there's that piece ofthe puzzle, but then there's also
the fact that people aren't taughthow to regulate their emotions.
We're not taught about it in school.We're not taught about it in life,
how to regulate them, which isanother challenge. So you have the
thing causing the emotionaldisrelate regulation. Then you

(15:59):
have the fact that we're not taughthow to regulate them in the first
place. And those two things cause alot of challenges. Look, you're
really scaring me, dude. Becausekind of what you're describing,
what I'm hearing is that, right?Because I struggle with addiction.
I think most people have. I mean, howcan you not with freaking, like,
listen, let's say you never touch adrug in your life, right? Fast food

(16:19):
is nuts with the bullshit they put init. Kind of what I'm hearing is that,
hey, you don't realize it. I'mtalking to myself now. Hey, Chris,
right? My name's Chris. You don'trealize it, but you have these
addictive tendencies in your lifebecause you have some type of hidden
trauma in your past, and it's reallyfucking with you. with you. And the

(16:43):
key word in that sentence is hidden.Cause I don't wake up every day
wanting to cut my wrist open. Oh mygosh, my childhood was so bad. I wake
up every day, I'm in a good mood. I gowork out, I'm pretty productive at
work. I get to talk to really coolpeople like you. My wife is happy, I
have dogs. So I'm pretty happy. LikeI wake up every day, I'm in a damn good

(17:05):
mood. Most days. But what you'resaying is, yeah, you're in a great
mood, but there's some shit underthe surface. And this shit could be
controlling you in ways that youdon't even realize. So this is like,
this is fucking scary that myselfand others may just have like hidden

(17:26):
stuff that is fucking with us everyday. Yeah, yeah, we definitely do
have hidden things and that'scalled the subconscious, right?
All of us have a brain and we can onlycontrol about 20 % of our brain. So we
have the conscious and thesubconscious. So loads of things go
into that subconscious throughoutour lives and make decisions,
right? That's where we getinformation from. So all of us do

(17:48):
have challenges that affect us somemore than others and it's not a path
for everyone, right? I'm not sayingeveryone has to go on that path and
learn those lessons. Some people,you know, not this lifetime. That's
not their journey. They don't wantto opt into that experience. That's
fine, you know? My mom, she had herown challenges and she didn't get
clean or embark on that journey andshe passed away. That's fine. Her

(18:10):
death was not an example. It was thelesson and that was, was in my mind
her path in life. But at the same timefor the people who knew- Her what?
Say that again, please. That was herwhat? That was her purpose in life in
some ways was perhaps not to be anexample but to be a lesson of what not
to do, right? And that's certainlywhat I've taken from it. It was, I

(18:31):
understood from her, you know, bydrinking and using drugs and she
passed away when I was 10 that Ididn't want to go down that journey.
I didn't want to go down that path.And I got to a point where I was
heading towards death, drinkingand drugs. And I was like, I don't
want to die like her. So she reallygave me an example of what not to do.
But she didn't necessarily embarkon the journey of discovering all

(18:52):
the subconscious and having yearsof therapy like I have. And I'm not
saying everyone has to go and dothat. But I am suggesting that a lot
of challenges in people's lives, ifthey look a bit further under the
surface, that would help themdecode that kind of mystery behind
some of those problems. So we canactually free them to get to the next
level in where they want to go andbring all of that stuff from the

(19:15):
shadows and actually start tochange it. And that's what I mean by
going from the subconscious to theconscious mind is bringing it into
awareness so we can start to changethat behavior. What would your mom
tell you today if she could see you?Yeah, I think she'd say she was proud
of me. I mean, that's what people sayto me. People say, mom, you know, mom
will be so proud. The fact that, youknow, I've got my own addiction and I
know when I come and you know,hundreds and hundreds of people,

(19:37):
you know, get their drink and druguse under control, I think she'd be
really proud of me. And she'd be kindof happy in terms of what I've
become. Where would she be in heraddiction? Which would be showbore
clean, who knows? And I guess that'swhat I feel like she'd say. She'd

(19:57):
say, Luke, I'm proud of you. Did youever try to confront her before she
passed about her using? A lot ofpeople did around them, but I
personally didn't. I did have someexperiences with her when she was
drinking. I was sort of like eight,nine, 10, and then she died when I was
10. So I wasn't really old enough toreally understand necessarily

(20:19):
what alcohol was or what was reallygoing on. I just knew that she got
drunk sometimes and I carried herhome drunk sometimes, but then we
understand roughly what was goingon. But a lot of my family members did
and my grandparents were very richand they chopped her in rehab. And
she was in some ways that person thatdid have a lot of things in life. And

(20:41):
that was also enabled her to usemore. Like when she used to crash a
car, for example, my grandmotherwas buying a new one. There wouldn't
be consequences of her actions. Soshe'd be like, it doesn't matter.
I'm just gonna, you know, there'sno, with a lot of affluent people,
there's no rock bottom becausethere's just infinite money in some
ways. There's no rock bottom.There's no wake up call. It's like,
I'll just buy you another car andanother car. You can just go to

(21:02):
another rehab and another rehab andanother rehab so it becomes
challenging. So I didn'tpersonally have those
conversations with her, but peoplein my family definitely did. And my
brothers, who are four and fiveyears older, definitely tried
their best to do what they could.Lou, I think you may have just said
something to me that has changedprobably the most impactful thing

(21:24):
I've heard in the last couple ofmonths, which is that your mom dying
was a lesson, right? Not like shewasn't an example, because just
like you, my mom died when I was 16,she overdosed on drugs and she was an
addict my whole life. And I'vealways looked at her death as kind of

(21:44):
like, not a lesson, but the path, theblueprint. Like this is probably
where I'm gonna go, right? I'mprobably gonna do the same shit she
did because every single day I liveis one more percent. I realize that I
am just like fucking her, which isbad. She was a crazy motherfucker.

(22:09):
She was crazy as shit. And so it'slike, damn, I am just like her in
every way. My sense of humor is likeher. My thought process is like her.
Like everything is like her. And mydad is like a stable ass dude. Like
he's stable as shit, but I tooknothing from him. And so to hear you
say that that was her lesson, I just,I never thought about my mom's death

(22:35):
as a lesson, as just kind of like,well, maybe a lesson, but I've
always thought of it as, hey, Chris,this is how your life will end. And
just to hear you say that has reallyhelped me. So thank you. You're
welcome, you're welcome. And Idon't want your life to end like that
and neither do you, right? The goalin many ways for me was to break that

(23:00):
generational trauma. I don't wantto pass down that trauma through
generations and be experienced inthe same thing. And I had to go
through that experience. I wentthrough my own journey of drinking
and using drugs and then realizedthat, you know, I didn't want to end
up that way. And I was like, fuck,something's gotta change.
Something's gotta change. But foryou, you mentioned you've had your

(23:22):
own struggles with drugs and stufflike that in the past. Where are you
at with that now? How are you in thehere and now? Yeah, so I don't know,
dude. Listen, I don't know. I don'tdo crazy shit, right? I just drink
and I smoke weed. That's about it.But it is hard for me to stop really

(23:47):
anything, really anything. So I'mtoo scared to try harder drugs,
right? To try maybe like meth orheroin or anything like that.
Because I know kind of my familyhistory and stuff like that. So I
just smoke weed and drink, but it'sjust hard for me to stop. So for
example, just this past weekend,smoke weed on Saturday. I was like,

(24:10):
damn, this is great. Woke up, I did itagain on Sunday, pretty much all
day. Damn, this is fucking great.Did it again on Monday? Holy fuck.
Tuesday, and this is this week.Tuesday, did it again on Tuesday.
And so it's just hard for me to stop.You know, I'm still good to my wife. I
don't kick my dogs. I do my job justfine, everything. But I do find that

(24:33):
it just gets a little bit far, alittle bit. I just wish I could quit
sooner. I just wish I could do it oneday and that's it for a month. But
it's really hard for me. Yeah, yeah.And you know, the two main questions
are, she was like, is it having amassive impact on your life, like,
detrimentally? And do you actuallywant to stop, right? Because, you

(24:54):
know, you don't have to stop. Youdon't have to choose to be sober for
the rest of your life. And if it's nothaving a massive impact on your
life, there's not necessarily aproblem, right? If your family is
happy, if you're happy with it, thenit's okay. But, you know, if you're
pushing just past that kind of stoppoint, there is something to be a bit
mindful of and to recognize, okay,maybe I need a bit more healthy

(25:17):
coping mechanisms and healthythings in my life that aren't so
focused around that and to be a bitmore mindful around what's going
on. So some of the things I takeclients for, and I can take you
through a quick model if you likeright now. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah,
so one of the things you probablywould have heard of is meditation.
Now, one of the things that I loveabout meditation is if you sit there

(25:40):
and do what I would call staticmeditation when you're sitting
there for 10 minutes a day, justtypically with your eyes closed and
you're just meditating usingheadphones or some kind of audio and
you're recognizing when your minddrifts off and you're bringing your
focus back to the attention of ananchor, like your weight on the
chair or the sound in your ears. Youknow, that can be really helpful for

(26:02):
you to be able to manage yourthinking. So for example, when I'm
in a meditation, if my mind thinks,oh, what am I having for dinner? I'm
gonna have a chicken sandwich, I'mgonna have bacon with a sandwich, am
I gonna have chips with a sandwich?And you link all of these different
thoughts all the way down the line,right? And suddenly you're like,
Tuesday next week, I'm having twochicken sandwiches. And it's like,
how did we get here? I'm meant to befocusing on the meditation, let's

(26:23):
focus back on the attention, right?That's kind of what happens. And my
mind just, you know, drifts off andgoes a million miles an hour. So the
practice of meditation for me isabout bringing the focus of my
attention back to the here and now.So when I think, oh, chicken
sandwich, I'm gonna have bacon withit, I can recognize, oh my God, I'm
thinking, let those thoughts go andbring my focus back to the here and

(26:45):
now. So I'm breaking the link in thechain and not linking so many
thoughts together all the way downthe road, does that make sense? Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. So the way that becomespractical through the lens of
addiction is when you're sittingthere and you're thinking, okay,
I've had two joints today, are youjust going on automatic pattern of
going, I'm going to have anotherjoint, another joint, another

(27:06):
joint, another joint, anotherjoint, and the next time I have more
joints, more joints, more joints.So same as a chicken sandwich, I'm
all the way down to Thursday, I'mstill smoking joints just
unconsciously. Whereas if youbring your focus to your attention,
like you're practising yourmeditation, and in the end of the
moment you think, actually, I justthought about my second joint,
that's a craving. Let me be mindfulof that. Let me be aware. A thought
does not equal an action ordecision. Let me tell you that one

(27:28):
more time. A thought does not equalan action or decision. So just
because you thought, Chris, I'mgoing to have a second joint,
doesn't mean you have to go and do it.You can just recognise, okay, I can
let this go. I can let this thought golike I have done in my meditation. I
can break this link. I don't have tolink everything together. I can
bring my attention back to the hereand now and think about, what else
can I go and do? What is happening inmy life? Can I spend more time with

(27:51):
the kids? Can I go for a walk with adog? Can I go and play golf or do some
kind of hobby or activity? And thosekind of things would fall into the
second category of meditation,which is an active meditation,
where you're focusing so much onsomething that the anchor takes
over your mind. Like if you'replaying golf or if you're about to
score a goal in football, all you'refocusing on is the ball in the net.

(28:12):
You're not focusing about work orweed or anything like that. So you
can go and do a static meditation topractice and then an active
meditation to kind of break thosethoughts and go and find something
else to do like an activity that youenjoy. Man, that's brilliant.
Would it make sense to maybe everytime I crave something that I

(28:33):
shouldn't and it could be a joint orit could be, you know, some nasty
fast food to punish myself? Likelet's say, oh, I want to smoke a
joint. Like you said, I bring it tothe forefront. I realize, hey, this
is a craving. This is detrimental tomy health and my goals. Right now I'm

(28:54):
going to do 100 pushups. Does thatcondition the brain or is that kind
of hokey? Yeah, so that can help youto interrupt the pattern. But it's
best to create a reward that'ssomewhat better than less
impulsive, but better overall thanthe drug. So you want to kind of take a
step up, not step down into doingsomething punishing, take a step

(29:16):
up. So for me, for example, if I'msitting there and I'm, you know, had
a craving just as an example, I don'treally have cravings anymore. But
so I had a craving and I'm like, yeah,I really want to go and drink and do
loads of drugs. I'm like, okay, Irecognize that thought. What else
can I go and do that I value more thanthat? If I play the tape forward, go
in and do in the drink and drugs isjust going to lead to more

(29:37):
separation or partner, morechallenges, more shame, more
guilt. So if I take this dead back andthink, what can I do instead? You
know, I can go for a ride on my bike andget loads of endorphins and be
outside. I can go for a walk with mypartner. I can go out for a nice meal
together to and focus on the food andnot the drink and alcohol. And I can
go and do things that bring me morefulfillment rather than the

(29:58):
pleasure back to the pleasure tofilm and continue. Right? Rather
than being like, I just want morepleasure, more pleasure, more
pleasure. Think, okay, whatfulfilling things can I do that I'm
not going to give you all of thatpleasure, but maybe it's going to
fill me up in a different way of morelove and connection, whether
that's connection to your dog oryour kids or your partner or a hobby
that you really, really enjoy it,something that really connects you

(30:19):
back to the world rather than justtakes you further out. And it's just
like, takes you further into, youknow, fire time and being stoned and
zoned out rather than further away,come back to your center. Look,
you're fucking good, dude. You'repretty good. I'm not gonna lie. I
think you're better. I'm going tosee this addiction therapist once
and he was terrible. So you're waybetter than him. And he charged me

(30:42):
like 250 bucks every time I seen him.So yeah, fuck that guy. Do you think,
do you think that like addiction cancome or peak its nasty head
depending on your lifestyle? Andhere's what I mean. For me
personally, whenever I am living avery busy life, I am busy all the

(31:03):
fucking time, right? Even a littlebit stressed out. I don't even think
about drugs or alcohol or anythinglike that. It's just like I'm just
going, going, going. And thethought doesn't even come to mind.
Whereas if I'm a little bit morebored, maybe a little bit more
comfortable, all I want to do isdrugs and alcohol. Are those
linked? Yeah, yeah. So boredom canbe a massive, massive trigger for

(31:27):
drinking and using drugs. And thereason I'd say that they're linked
is because when you're busy andyou're going a million miles an
hour, you don't really have the timeand space in your brain to actually
think about things. So you're justnot really focusing on it and the
cravings don't come in. When you'resitting there by yourself, whether
that's in the meditation, or if Isaid, okay, Chris, just go and spend

(31:48):
the complete day by yourself anddon't watch anything or do any
social media, just be by yourself.You'd have all your thoughts and all
your problems and stuff may come upand percolate. You may start
thinking, I've got that bill to pay.Oh, that my boss may call me into that
meeting. Oh, this may happen. Youstart to worry and things start to
ruminate in your brain and go roundand round. And that starts to build
anxiety. And then after a few hours,I'll fuck, I need a joint man. This is

(32:12):
fucking stressful as shit. Icouldn't have said it better
myself. You're like playing therole of my brain perfectly. Life's
followed up. Yeah, so let me tell youthe solution, right? The solution
is, is to recognize when you're byyourself how to shift your focus. So

(32:33):
by doing a journal and like a braindump and writing out all of those
thoughts and thinking about, okay,what's causing me anxiety? What can
I, what is outside my control? So Ican't control what's going to
happen in that meeting. But I canwrite a to-do list of 10 things I need
to do this week. So my performancereview at the end of the week is much
better. So thinking about what youcan control and writing stuff out

(32:54):
and doing a bit of a plan and puttingthose thoughts to bed as it were, and
then doing a meditation, lettingthose thoughts go, then finding a
healthy way to reengage yourself.There's not with the busyness and
the stress and running a millionmiles an hour of work, but with some
kind of hobby, like I say, whetherthat's golf or for me, it's being an
X-ing and going out on my bike andthat really commands my attention.

(33:16):
But some kind of soft or hobby I canfocus on generally exercise is
good, anything exercise related.That isn't really consuming all my
attention. I mean, for you, Chris,what kind of hobbies do you have?
What do you do outside all of thebusyness? Yeah, that's a good
question. So I podcast, also writecode. I'm a coder, so that's a great

(33:37):
hobby. Also, I like to cook. I like tobarbecue and stuff like that. I like
to work out. I like to playbasketball, that type of stuff.
Yeah, that's awesome. All of thoseare awesome. Love all of them. So
when you're on a podcast talking tome, right, of course, we're
thinking about weed and drugs andstuff now because we're talking
about it. But generally speaking,you're going to be focused on the
guest and what's going on. You'renot really like thinking about that

(33:59):
side of things. And again, withbarbecuing or cooking, I love
cooking. I love Gordon Ramsay. And Ifind when I cook, it really commands
my attention because I just focus100 % on the food and making it right
and eating it. And I get that bigdopamine here at the end if I do a
really good job and make a lovelykind of free course meal. And I get to

(34:19):
focus my attention. It's likeactive meditation where I'm
engaged in it. So those kind ofthings really help or basketball.
When you know, doing that jump shot,all your focusing and I see if it goes
in the hoop, you're not like having acraving in that moment. So make in
space and time for yourself in ahealthy way. And having those
strong hobbies in place wheneverything gets too busy is really,

(34:40):
really important, rather than gointo other things that are just like
the pleasure rather than thefulfillment. Is Gordon Ramsay as
popular over there as he is in theStates? We fucking love him over
here. Yeah. Well, in my world, I'mjust a massive Gordon Ramsay fan. So
in my world, absolutely, I loveGordon Ramsay. I've done his
masterclasses and what's like allof his shows. So yeah, he is quite big

(35:02):
in the UK. And he's just like anawesome celebrity chef. He's
fucking awesome, man. I lovewhenever they bring the dishes up to
him and he smashes it with his head.He's like, it's raw. And like the
fish goes everywhere. And people,nobody gives a shit about it. I was

(35:25):
like, damn, fuck, yeah, okay, it israw. And this guy's just on a tirade.
No one gives a shit. This guy sayswhatever the fuck he wants, man.
Love Gordon Ramsay. And he looksgood. He's like 60. He looks
fantastic. Yeah, he's really,really good. He's really, really
good. And he's had addictionchallenges in his own family. Like
what? 99 % sure his brotherstruggled with cocaine and doing

(35:49):
loads of cocaine. And he's had, andhe did like a documentary series
about going around to some cocaineplant and looking at it and doing a
bit of investigation around it anddid some series on it. So he's had
those challenges in his life. And ifyou listen to his masterclass, like
his private sort of teaching onthis, this company called

(36:09):
Masterclass, he does like a podcastinterview kind of thing. And you get
to hear some of the behind the scenesof his struggles of opening
restaurants and some of thechallenges he's had in his life. And
anyone who's successful at thatlevel will have had their own
challenges and their owndifficulties and will have had to
evolve through some of that stuff.He said, you know, he worked as the

(36:30):
forefront as a chef for many, manyyears. And then eventually his wife
turned around and was like, Gordon,you've got to stop, you know, or
we're over. You need to put down thebaton and you need to start training
other people. And he had to shiftfrom being, you know, a Michelin
star chef to now training Michelinstar chefs and shift and give up his
whole empire in many ways and shiftit all to then nurturing people and

(36:52):
training people and not being at therestaurant so much and having
people under him. So anyone at thatlevel, no matter how successful
they are, had to grow, had to evolve,had to improve their mental health
and focus on things or it would havecost them too much. So anywhere you
look, you'll see those kind ofreally important shifts happening
in people's lives if they're at thatlevel of society. Yeah, I heard

(37:16):
someone say one time that you wouldnever out achieve your lifestyle or
something like that. Essentially,I think the point was that you're not
going to be a Gordon Ramsey levelsuccess if your life is a fucking
mess. Meaning that, hey, you'restrung out every night, you're
beating your wife, you're lazypiece of shit. And it's always stuck

(37:40):
with me because I don't know if it'strue. It sounds good. It's a really
cool thing to tell people,especially if they're struggling.
Do you think that's true? So you'veworked with CEOs and stuff like
that. Have you worked with CEOs andtop level people who are super
achievers but their whole life is awreck? Yeah, that's normally the

(38:01):
point they come to help. You know,come to me. Is that life is really
good. And a lot of people you hearsay, I'm really high functioning,
I'm doing really well, but I justcan't stop drinking and using
drugs. That's just this kind ofthing in my life that I can't stop
doing, but my marriage may be good,my work may be good, I may be
achieving loads, I may be the CEO ofthis massive bank and everything's

(38:23):
kind of quote unquote going well,but I just can't stop using drugs and
drinking. And that can be a very,very big thing that I see a lot of the
time. And normally it's somethingbig that's happened, that's kind of
tipped them over the edge from sortof functioning and staying,
keeping the lid on and keepingeverything under control. Then
something happened in the past fewmonths that tipped people over. A

(38:44):
lot of people with lockdown,lockdown in the UK was really,
really big and a lot of peoplestarted drinking at home more,
started doing drugs at home more,and then they started doing drugs,
you know, when they're workingbecause they've just been at home
for a few months, they've just sincestarted doing it. So then they're
doing Coca lunchtime or having adrink at lunch in the sun, then
they're drinking through work,which is a barrier that many people

(39:05):
never actually aligned peopledidn't cross. And there's
something like, fuck, this justcrept in, I'm working from home, now
I'm drinking at work, this neverreally happened in my life, what's
going on here? So, but that'ssomething that happened
gradually, that people just slowlystepped over. So normally these big
challenges can echo in people'slives and there's normally some
kind of causal event that happenswhere like lockdown or being the CEO

(39:28):
or some kind of higher pressure.What's your favorite drug that
you've ever done? What's the bestone? Yeah, I'm gonna add like a
combination. So my bestcombination of drugs would be doing
MDMA and magic mushrooms, doingboth of those MDMA and magic
mushrooms together is technicallycalled hippy flipping. That would

(39:49):
be my favorite combination thatI've done in the past, but I kind of
enjoyed from a pleasure point ofview the most. Holy shit, I could
only imagine. I bet you were fuckinglike a racehorse for nine hours.
What did that feel like? What wereyour emotions after you took that?
Yeah, so at the time I was on top of astage in a nightclub very

(40:10):
stereotypical. I felt all of theendorphins from the MDMA, but I also
had like the trippiness from themushrooms as well and the
hallucinations. So I was like on topof the stage and all of the little
people in the crowd as far as I couldsee, all their heads turned into
little mushrooms and I was justlooking out of the crowd really
happy and these little mushroomswere just floating around in front

(40:33):
of me, bobbed up and down and I wasjust loving life at that time. That
sounds fucking great, dude. Thatsounds, oh man, that sounds like the
best experience of your life. Oh mygosh, I need to do this. I need to do
this. So whenever you, so you'retalking about it, you don't want to

(40:55):
say damn, let's hurry up and finishthis podcast so that I can go do this
shit right now. Yeah, I think for meat this point in my life, I've put
that chapter behind me and I don'tlive in that there now. Yes, I can
recognize it and recognize it wasreally really fun, but I guess over
time I've learned that for me, likeonce too many and a thousand is never

(41:16):
enough. Once I start something likethat, I'm very like have that
addictive personality and I'll belike, you know, every single day I
just creep up in my life and it becomeuncontrollable and just like erode
all my life. So it's like, why would Iinvite something that's going to
slowly corrode all of my life until Idie into my life? Well, I just have
that hard boundary where I justdon't do anything like that anymore

(41:37):
and I kind of keep it on the outside.But, you know, I'm not gonna shit on
the memories that I've had doingdrugs or say drugs are like the worst
thing ever. I've done fucking loadsof drugs. Of course they're good.
That's why people fucking do them.All I'm presenting is just, I'm just
saying is not the best way, right?When you weigh up the pros and cons,
it just doesn't make sense andthere's a better way that I offer

(41:58):
clients. Yeah, I think it'simportant you say that shit because
listen, if I was sitting down withlike a drug counselor or a therapist
and he was like, yeah, I've neverdone a drug in my life. I say, what the
fuck? Like how can you even talk tome? Because drugs are excellent and
nothing compares to them. Like, youknow, you can't, listen, if, you

(42:20):
know, whittling a fucking bowl outof wood was as good as cocaine, no one
would be doing cocaine. Yeah, no, wejust have a world full of bowls of
wood everywhere. Ha, ha, ha. Itwould be, like the governments
would like have to pass a law, no morefucking whittling bowls, okay

(42:40):
guys? Can we whittle some damn forksto go with the bowls? What the fuck, a
whole society is based on woodenbowls whittled by these people and
everybody would be sitting therewhittling their bowl. Nope, I don't
care what you say. This feelsfucking great. I don't care what you
say, president. Ha, ha, ha. That isawesome. Yeah, man, drugs are

(43:01):
fucking great. They're so fun.Yeah, and one thing you said that was
really important, right, is that,you know, you'd wanna work with
someone who's been through itthemselves and that's what a lot of
clients say to me, is I don't justwant a counselor who's reading from
a textbook who's like, yeah, this isthe system and the step by step way
that we solve addiction fromuniversity. They want someone

(43:22):
who's like, you know, they've beenthere at three in the morning doing
lines of coke. They want that personwho knows what it's like because
only once you've been through it, doyou really know what it's like and
the best way I can really describe acraving is like if you hold your
breath and you hold your breath solong that all you wanna do is breathe
and you just wanna get that nextbreath of oxygen, that's what it's

(43:43):
like when you crave and drink anddrug. It doesn't necessarily make
any logical sense, but you're justcraving it so much like that's all
the next thing you ever need in lifeand your whole vision just narrows
in and you're just like, but that'sall I need. And if I can't see
anything else, can't see theimpact, the destruction of my
family, I'm not doing any of thatconsciously, all I want is that next
hit and that's just where your laserfocus is and that can be really kind

(44:05):
of a hard cycle to kind of break outof. Yes, extremely hard. And I think
that's a great analogy too,especially for people who are not
addicts because that really is whatit's like. And that's, by the way,
that's what it's like to want to havesex with everything when you're 15
years old. When you're 15, you seethat pretty girl and it's like, holy

(44:26):
fuck, like I will give up the next 10minutes of breath just for five
minutes with this beautiful girl.It's fucking crazy. So why don't we
just let addicts die out? Why don'twe just let them go extinct? Because
I can't think of a more destructivepersonality trait than being an

(44:47):
addict. I mean, it's fuckingterrible. So why not just say, hey,
listen, addicts, you know, you wereborn with the plague, you gotta go,
I'm sorry, we're not gonna help you.You have to die out and the human race
will be better for it. Yeah, I mean,from my point of view, I feel like
it's unnecessary, right? I amliving proof that I did all those

(45:08):
drugs and now I don't do any drugs.I've been sober like over six years
now. This is my seventh year. So, youknow, I'm living proof that that
doesn't have to happen. And I guesswith my mom as well, you know, I don't
want people to die of addiction. Idon't want people to die of that.
They can die of something else ifthey want. That's why everyone's
gonna die at some point. But I don'twant them to die of that. I want them
to have some fulfillment andamazing life in between. So I think

(45:31):
the reason I'm not like, yeah, alladdicts, you know, you can just go
and die. You're a disease, you'reall zombies. It's because I believe
that it's possible to change. I havethat belief deeply ingrained in me
from my own journey and also workingwith hundreds of clients that have
helped change their lives. Andthey've literally written reviews
saying that, you know, Luke, you'vechanged my life and told me

(45:53):
personally, which is very humblingto hear from clients, you know, you
changed my life and you helped me getoff drugs and helped me get a drink in
and improve my relationship and allthose things. So yes, the success
rate isn't amazing, but at the sametime, for those people that do make
it through, that's the reward on theother side is truly amazing and

(46:14):
freeing. So I don't thinknecessarily anyone's beyond hope.
And I think, you know, I'm gonna, Iuse my life's mission every single
day, I wake up and see clients to helpthem get them across that goal line.
And that's what I do every singleday. What do you think it would be
like to be addicted to some type ofsubstance such as drugs or alcohol
2000 years ago, what do you thinkthat would be like? Yeah, I mean 2000

(46:39):
years ago Um, I mean what comes toJesus was walking. Yeah, I think you
just be on the street, right? Youjust be on the street You'd be just
drinking wine most likely you'd bedrinking wine and having sex And you
just be laying there like a bum on thestreet just drinking and drinking
and drinking you wouldn't beworking You wouldn't have earned a

(47:01):
skill and you just be there in thecycle And then maybe you'd probably
just die on the side of the street andthey might leave you there Depends
on where you are in the world, butmaybe you did find someone That was a
guide for you or helped you whetherthat was Jesus or some other kind of
you know or Socrates or anyone Somephilosopher some wise counsel that

(47:22):
you managed to meet or even just amentor Who was able to help you out of
it? So hopefully 2000 years agoWell, there definitely was mentors
and people around helping otherpeople and guiding them I think
what's beautiful about now is wehave podcasts right now I can reach
hundreds of thousands of people ayear and give them this message
Whereas before I couldn't havespoken to 100,000 people

(47:43):
especially about in front sportright 2000 years ago. There's no
transport You know luckily, youknow, you can really get your house
in a horse that's probably for richpeople So you just not really do much
so really delivering a message inthe here and now is really amazing
But 200 years ago, yeah, I think theywould have been drinking wine and on
the street And hopefully someonewould have would have helped them
and show them the light Yes crazybecause I tend to agree with you that

(48:06):
you would just kind of be on thestreets, you know depressed and I'm
guessing that you would look a lotlike what skid road looks like today
in Los Angeles or a lot of these bighomeless encampments So while
maybe 2000 years have passed For alot of people who are addicts Their
circumstances still look the sameWhich is really sad, which is just on

(48:30):
the street probably doing anythingfor a couple of dollars Just so that
they could get their next hit or fixand that's Man that fucking sucks Do
you have any ideas as to what canreally change it and by it? I mean the
addiction trend so every addictiontrend now I think in every major

(48:50):
country is going up into the rightright more people are addicted It's
impacting more and more people. Doyou ever see this turning around and
if so, how does this happen? Yeah, soI think one of the important things
is being able to Get people intosupport so a lot of people who are at

(49:11):
like the sort of lower levels ofaddiction I work with more like
senior executives and stuff But yougo down to the other end of the scale
where people haven't stopped usingat this level They've lost
everything and they're now livingon the street that can be really
challenging and a bigger epidemicSo I think what's important is to
have Charities and rehabs in placeand places for those people to go

(49:33):
because oftentimes They end up justusing and using and using and then
they get Going to like the A &E it wasin the UK like the medical system And
then they get medical help and theNHS in the UK gets them back online
gets them sober again detox Is themand ships them back out and then they
don't have much support So they juststart using again and then they just

(49:54):
come back to hospital And it's justlike a yo-yo wasting loads of you
know resources and it just goesround and round and round So having
better support for those people togo into sober houses and to You know
work with local charities in orderto help lift those people up and give
them those opportunities Becauseit's a bit of a challenging dynamic

(50:14):
Especially where I live that peoplewon't house people who are using
drugs or drinking By the same timepeople won't stop drinking and
using drugs until the house So it'slike a chicken or the egg It's like
you can't go into a sober house untilyou're sober But people who are
still drinking and using drugs arelike well I'm not going to stop
drinking using drugs because I'mjust living on the street So it's

(50:35):
like a bit of a difficult cycle So youneed to be able to give people a
chance to Still go into the soberhouse while they're sort of
drinking and using drugs and thenreduce that and give them the
opportunity and have like aFreestrike policy and then allow
them to Make the change as they go sothat they can really build up their
life From scratch, which is reallyreally important Yeah, but even you

(50:59):
said like Treating addiction has avery low success rate So even if we
had every single addict gottreatment like what maybe one in ten
would actually be cured or sober sothen Are we just okay with that or
Something has to break here rightbecause The trend is It's crazy.

(51:20):
It's staggering. I mean somethinghas to break or else. We're all going
to be in a fucking tent You knowtrying to suck dick to smoke some
crack Yeah, so I think the importantthing would be you know in terms of
like the educational system havingbetter support To teach people when
they're in school how to managetheir emotions if you talk people

(51:40):
You know different you knowmeditation and journaling how to
manage their emotions theimportant of exercise and
Balancing their mental health ifyou told that in the school system
and had like a whole subject onmental health and talk people How to
improve their mental health thatwould help tons of conditions where
that's addiction anxietydepression Everyone being put on
loads of medication all of thatstuff would be less Impacted if we

(52:03):
taught kids in school how to managetheir emotions how to improve their
regulation of their emotions andactually Then they'd go out into the
world with all the shit the life'sgoing to throw at them Not even
creating the problem in the firstplace and that would be one of the the
best ways to solve it Yeah, thatthat's a really good answer Uh, I

(52:25):
think the only product and and maybeyou could bring another one up The
only product that I've seen or thatI've witnessed that is a lot less
common now that's extremelyaddictive is cigarettes So it looks
like there was kind of a successfulad campaign. I don't know a
successful campaign To make peopleaware of the dangers of cigarettes

(52:45):
and now They're not as common as theyused to be. I wonder if Do you think
that that type of approach? Maybe ifwe took the cigarette approach with
unhealthy food Do you think thatthis would work? Yeah, so I think
with the cigarette approach. It'skind of like You know letting people
know of the consequences of beinglike, you know in in the uk they have

(53:06):
the pictures on the cigarettepackets of like people's Lungs and
people dead and all that kind ofstuff Um, and that's not you know,
that that that obviously works tosome extent By the same time it does
make people if they're addicted toit They're just going to fill that
shame and guilt and then justperhaps keep using So it's
important to go the next step backand educate people Before they

(53:27):
start like in school. What isaddiction? Why do people get
addicted? How not to get addicted todrugs in the first place because me I
didn't understand all of these dotsI didn't understand the way it meant
for my mom to die I didn't understandunderstand the dangers of me
drinking or using drugs or doingcocaine I was just a kid in my teens
having fun just drinking and justdoing what everyone else did So

(53:49):
culturally it's like so embedded inour lives And as I grew up through
that system and got used to it It justkind of slowly just got embedded
into my life and the more stress Ifelt as I was running my first
business The more I drank and themore I used drugs because it just
always been there And I didn'treally know any different and I
didn't really get educated anydifferent solutions or problems in

(54:09):
school So therefore it just kind ofcontinued on for me and just became
the obvious choice The low hangingfruit that was just there I didn't
really know any different until Iwent to therapy and you know Did a
degree and embarked on this missionand learned all these tools over the
past seven years I didn't know anydifferent when I was in school
because no one ever taught it to meUm, I just knew that you know, I'm a

(54:30):
man. Don't show my emotions and ifpeople would say anything just beat
them up You know, that was that wasall I knew Or at least try I wasn't
always successful But you know it'svery takeshift Hey, it's okay to get
your ass kicked sometimes, dude.Listen, it's the fact that you were
willing to fight, man. Fuck it. Butsee, I don't know if that would have

(54:51):
made a difference. Cause forexample, here in the United States,
we have this drug program calledDAIR, D-A-R-E. It stands for
something. But I went through DAIR,we all went through DAIR and they
have like police officers come inand they're like, this is what a
crack pipe looks like. This willtake all your damn teeth out if you
smoke out of this damn thing. Andmarijuana is the devil in all of

(55:13):
this. I didn't give a shit, right?Whenever you that young, I don't
give a shit. I was like, oh, okay. Sothat's what a crack pipe looks like.
So I know if I see one, you know, thisis what I want to smoke or oh, the
joints of devil. Like, you know,kids are rebellious. I wanted to do
something because they said, don'tdo it. I was like, oh, don't smoke
weed. I want to smoke a lot of fuckingweed. So I was like, damn, we're kind

(55:36):
of hopeless here, dude, becausekids don't give a shit. Yeah, you
know what I'm saying? They can bevery rebellious. And they can be
like, if they get told to dosomething, go and do the opposite,
just for fun. Just for fun. Like whenI was a kid, it's like, you tell me to
do something, I'm gonna do theopposite, just to piss you off. Even
if it's not even a good idea, I'lljust do it just for fucking fun. But
the important thing is that if youtalk people not necessarily like

(56:02):
the fear of, you know, don't do crackthis or crack pipe, look like that
education is important. By the sametime, if you taught them how to
manage their emotions better andmore of the solutions about
regulating emotions, that would behelpful to them. So rather than
saying, don't do drugs and then theyjust go into drugs, it'd be like,
war, a bit more, it'd be like if yousaid, okay, this is how to regulate

(56:24):
your emotions. This is how to setboundaries. This is how to be calm.
And this is how to communicatebetter in relationships. This is
how to manage stress when you feelstressed at work. These are all the
different emotions or that you mayfeel. This is how to kind of get in
touch with them. You know, if theyhad more education around those
kind of things. Yes, there'll stillbe some sense of being a shit show.

(56:45):
But at the same time, I feel like Iwould have run more value than some
of the other options that arecurrently out there. That's
beautiful. Yeah, I think that's agreat idea. You could even do it with
stuff like, I think some things kindof teach you to regulate your
emotions implicitly, such asorganized sports or like, or just
kind of team building things, beingpart of a team, oh, you're on the

(57:08):
debate team, the math team, thebasketball team. I think these
things, in order to be good atfootball or basketball, part of it
is regulating your emotions. So Ithink getting kids involved in
these type of things could reallyhelp them in these other areas.
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Andhaving lots of classes and

(57:30):
activities that the kids could do.But also adding the context and
letting them know that this isactually what I would personally
call is like an active meditation.Like this is the reason behind going
to play basketball. When you go andplay basketball, do it with some
intention. Really put it all in thecourt and forget about all these
things and do a journal beforehandand then go and play basketball and

(57:52):
really see if you feel thedifference. And actually like
integrating the emotional shiftsinto it, like I do with clients and
kind of re-parenting clients a lotof the time and getting them,
teaching them to re-pay up their owninner children to didn't learn this
stuff originally is reallyimportant. But teaching them the
context around these things wouldbe really, really valuable. How to

(58:13):
deal with pressure when you'retaking the match winning shot, that
would be really, really helpful.And a lot of coaches are really good
at stuff like that and do really helptheir students and do really help
them off the court or off the pitch aswell as on the court and on the pitch.
So years ago, probably in like the60s and 70s, people smoke
cigarettes like crazy, right? Thisis, and they had no clue what they

(58:36):
were doing, right? They wereuneducated on the side effects, the
addictive nature, the fact thattheir lungs are turning black, all
of this stuff. And it was reallyfucked up. And they did this for
years and years and years. And Idon't know when education on
cigarettes really got out there,maybe the mid 90s. What do you think

(58:56):
in 30 years we're gonna look back ontoday where we're like, damn, it's
kind of the cigarettes of our day andage where we're not gonna really
know the harms of it for maybeanother 20 or 30 years. Yeah, I'd say
some of the things in here and nowthat I see a lot of is like vaping,
ketamine would be a big one. And alsothings like TikTok where people are

(59:17):
getting more ADHD and finding ithard to have any kind of focus,
whether that's in score or anythingbecause of their phones and social
media. And they can't concentrateon anything because of all of these
other stimulation. So there'd bethe kind of big free, which would be
like social media and phones andTikTok especially, and then vaping
and ketamine. If you had kids, wouldyou let them use a phone, a

(59:41):
smartphone? Yeah, I thinktechnology is amazing and
technology has changed my life. Andso has like coding and having access
to the internet is really importantand understanding AI and all those
things for kids. I'd definitely beteaching them, but I definitely
have boundaries and I haveboundaries around the technology.

(01:00:03):
I teach them that it's a valuabletool, that it's not somewhere
that's gonna consume your life. AndI would also equally take them out to
have boundaries and go and exploreforests and go and climb a tree and
throw stones and skin rocks and allthat fun stuff I did when I was a kid is
important things I would integrateinto the child's life. And I'm not

(01:00:24):
gonna stand it out, be a perfectparent. I'll fuck stuff up too as
well. Sometimes I understand whenit's like, just give the kid an iPad
so he shuts the fuck up. I understandsometimes it can be really
stressful being a parent, I'm not aparent myself, so I can't
authentically comment. I canunderstand they must be really hard
sometimes, but seeing here on myhigh horse, I would say that I would
manage the balance and haveboundaries and do my best. Yo, it

(01:00:48):
doesn't get boring doing the rightthing all the time. It doesn't get
boring doing the right thing. Youknow what I just wanna say, you know
what, fuck it tonight, I am gettingnaked in a strange place and I'm
gonna wake up somewhere I didn'tintend to wake up. Yeah, so I don't do
those kind of things anymore, but Ido have fun in other ways. I just

(01:01:10):
skydive in. It's a big one that Ireally, really enjoy. I'll go and
jump out of an airplane to have funand relax. Oh, hold up, hold up, you
can't just say that. Yo, Luke, allright, Luke. Luke, our friendship
just changed, dude. My guy, Luke,you just said I jump out of an

(01:01:30):
airplane to have fun and relax? Likewhat is going on? Dude, you need to go
back and do mushrooms and MDMAbecause that's way more safe.
What's going on, Luke? We need totalk about this. Why are you jumping
out of planes? Yeah, so I thinkskydiving is such an amazing sport
and it's one that's really, reallyfun. I do enjoy some sense of

(01:01:51):
adrenaline sometimes and one of myfavorite skydives was when I jumped
out of the plane in a sunset and I kindof saw the sun setting over the earth
and I saw the curvature of the earthand I was just falling towards the
earth. Okay, I saw the curvature ofthe earth and I was falling towards
the ground and it was just magic.Like I felt weightless. That was one

(01:02:15):
of the most profound psychologicalexperiences I've had, even drugs
aside, was literally fallingtowards the earth, looking at the
sun setting over the earth and thecurvature. It was just completely
at peace and for those few seconds, Iwas just present in that moment and
there was no past or future and I wasjust there and then after a few more
seconds, I was like, yeah, shit, Igot poor my parachute now so I don't

(01:02:37):
die. But in that few moments wasactually bliss and I really enjoy
skydiving and again, that is activemeditation, right? When I'm doing a
skydive, I'm not thinking aboutanything else. I'm like, fuck, I got
poor my parachute. Pay attention tomy altimeter and where I am falling
in the earth and know what's going onand it's a really, really enjoyable
thing for me. I love it. So we'regonna go to all the rehabs now. We're

(01:03:00):
gonna take all of these fucking drugaddicts and say, get in the damn
plane, you fuckheads. Just do it.And we're just gonna throw them out
the plane and just say, fly, justfly. It's the best. It's the only
thing better than drugs, guys.You're fucking flying. Do it. You
love it. Yeah, yeah. And I think it'simportant to find those hobbies

(01:03:21):
that you really enjoy, right? Findthose hobbies that really engage
you. Like for you, you said, it'sdoing barbecue, doing baseball,
coding, like those kind of thingscan be really, really important and
really like an active meditationwhen you're really focusing on that
activity. It can be really, reallygood. So finding other joys in life
and the most important thing ismaking time for them, right?

(01:03:42):
Because when we're really quitebusy in our lives, all of those
hobbies and fun things that give usfulfillment tend to fall by the
wayside. And then that's a shame,right? And that's why we go to the
quick hit things. Cause like fuckoff, time's gonna play baseball all
day or basketball all day. I'm gonnasmoke a fucking joint. And then in
the end, you wasted the wholefucking day anyway. So she was just
gonna play basketball. So, youknow, we need to make time for those

(01:04:06):
activities and go and have fun. Sothe first step to getting better is
one wanting to change, right? So youhave to want to change to bring the
problems to the front of the head tolike realize that hey don't just

(01:04:27):
subconsciously light up a joint orhave a drink think about it and then
three meditate which helpsbringing stuff to the front and
helps kind of recognize what'sgoing on recognize the patterns
that my brain is just kind of takinglike following these steps hey it's

(01:04:48):
a Friday night Friday nights we godrink and have fun say no right so you
bring that to the front with passivemeditation and then active
meditation which is like you knowplaying a sport cooking something
like that to where you're so wrappedup in the activity that you can't

(01:05:08):
think about anything else even ifyou wanted to is that that's about
right yeah perfect perfect perfectand they're like the main core steps
which isn't you summarize themperfectly and you know after that
there's a few more things we work onas science careers with a program in
terms of relationships andrebuilding trust and handling
social situations and how to getthrough the next 12 months without

(01:05:32):
relapsing but the definitely thefirst you know a few steps is exactly
what you summarized and that'sreally important that people take
those steps in order to go on thejourney and start to get things
under control and start to you knowreset their brain what do you do for
someone like let's say I come to you Isaid hey Luke man listen I have smoke
crack every day for the past 15 days Iwant help so bad obviously I'm at the

(01:05:56):
lowest of the low in my life I'm in abad place what do you do for someone
like that what's yourrecommendation yeah so when I've
worked with with clients like that Iused to work in a rehab in London
there was a charity and they used towork with clients who just came out
of prison straight into the rehab orsometimes they read up some the
street and then come to the rehab Ithink one of the most important

(01:06:18):
things for people like that is youknow their basic needs need to be met
if they're on the street they need tohave some kind of housing somewhere
to live you know and start with thatside of things so the clients used to
come to the rehab with then housedthem they'd have somewhere to live
and then they start to work throughand have like a reduction plan to get

(01:06:40):
off the crack and start to cut outtheir life and then they start to
work through the underlying traumaand some of the things that caused it
as well as simultaneouslyrebuilding some of the pieces in
their life starting to get a job andthink about what is going on in their
life but what normally holds a lot ofpeople back in those situations is
the past they're like fuck Luke youknow I smoked crack for so long I

(01:07:02):
fucked up my life I lost my mybusiness my family everything it's
all fucked up I can never come backfrom this you know I'm out of rock
bottom I can't see a way back so it'simportant to learn to
recontextualize theirrelationship with time and
understand that stuff is in the pastget them to write it all down and
normally I do like unsent letter sothey write it all down in a letter for

(01:07:25):
the past self and they take thatletter and then burn it so they can
kind of let that past trauma go andthen I get them to create a vision for
the future there's like a 10x visionof where they need to go so drugs is
here and you want to get the personway beyond drugs to a vision like if
you told me you know five years agothat I was gonna I did write a vision

(01:07:45):
I've got way past that now if you toldme I was gonna get past there I
probably would have been likeyou're full of shit I'm not gonna
make it that seems too unbelievablebut I wrote down the vision and I've
worked it day after day week afterweek and slowly I got there and I've
achieved things way beyond just notdrinking and using drugs every day
and I think that's the reallyimportant thing is to have that

(01:08:06):
vision to aim for that you're reallygonna work towards and to start
proving to yourself you can achievethose things along the way what
would be your advice to a personwho's struggling with addiction
whether that be drugs or food oralcohol right now yeah to reach out
to reach out and and to seek help andto really war they're poor they

(01:08:28):
don't have money okay if they'repoor and I'd recommend yeah go into
it to the library and read into booksreading some books around mental
health so many places havelibraries or internet cafe and a lot
of people still maintain somefamily or friends or some kind of
connections in their life or somekind of support service and ask

(01:08:50):
around if you're even around otheraddicts around you who you're gonna
be around they will know some kind ofservice that they've been to some
kind of place that they go to thatwill help you out even if you've got
nothing there's this local onedrowned here I know for sure and I've
worked with so finding just thatfirst run on the ladder and
admitting you need help and justdeciding okay I'm going to kind of

(01:09:14):
make this change and really movingalong the process step by step it's
kind of scary that that's youradvice because we're kind of
admitting that this addictionthing hey if you got this if you
struggle with this thing bro justget help just do it right if if you
came up to me and say hey you know I'mstruggling I'm struggling with my
weight I'm having trouble keepingweight off I say oh cool well you know

(01:09:37):
eat more salad and go to the gym rightperfectly reasonable advice or hey
man you know I need to score high mytest in school hey no problem go
study hey I have problem withaddiction oh shit you need help no
you need help like you need to gosomewhere because you can't fight
this fight it like I think addictionis one of the only things that falls

(01:10:00):
into that bucket it's like heyyou're struggling with this just
hang up the phone and get help andthat's I guess that yeah a test to how
serious it is man yeah and it can bereally serious and life
threatening and you know with a lotof behavior if it gets to a point
where it's really becomingdestructive in your life then you do

(01:10:21):
need to seek help and change a lot ofpeople who come to me have tried it by
themselves and I've gone a littlebit of time without drinking or
using the fried will power or to go toa few meetings or something like
that and then it doesn't really getthe job done so then they need to have
some kind of help outside of them Imean when you're in it you can't

(01:10:42):
really think super reasonable andmake those amazing decisions
because you're just like drinkingyou in drugs all the time so you need
someone outside of you aprofessional who's been through it
who can help you I mean the same withweight loss right even if you're
overweight and you're finding itreally challenging and you no
matter what you've tried to comedown on this diet that diet
sometimes having a personaltrainer having that external

(01:11:05):
accountability could really helpan external accountability is an
amazing motivator to help us withany behavior change to help us stay
on track and have that support andnurturing and having someone you
know who's got our back and who'slooking over our shoulder and
helping us along so I don't thinkthere's any shame in having someone
help you and reaching out for help Ithink people don't need to be doing

(01:11:27):
it by themselves and that's one ofthe things I wish someone had told me
is to get help earlier right if youask any addict that's got clean the
first thing they say is get help soonbecause we all we always leave it too
long so definitely I alwaysremember the saying the best time to
plant a tree is a hundred years agoand the second best time is right now

(01:11:48):
so it's like okay if you're gonna doit do it right now because now is the
best time so the youngest shouldever be and it doesn't need to get any
worse now is is the worst it needs tobe so go and make that change and
reach out for help damn yeah that'sgreat advice Luke yeah you're
you're really good I'll say thatyou're really good and if somebody

(01:12:09):
is listening to this right now andyou're struggling with addiction
of course you can reach out to Lukeall his info will be in the show does
but I'll just say this I care aboutyou I love each and every single one
of you and that shit is hard you knowyou could reach out to me on
Instagram or whatever but you knowI'm just a fucking guy Luke's an

(01:12:31):
expert yeah and I mean one of thethings that the audience can do is we
do have an online assessment peoplecan take so a lot of people don't
really know if they're kind ofstruggling with addiction or if
it's a big problem or what's reallygoing on or is it okay and I can just
kind of manage by myself so I createan online assessment for people to

(01:12:51):
take there's just some simplequestions they can answer and it
puts them on a continuum of like howmuch they're drinking if it's a
problem and it you know tells themsome of the things underlying in
their life whether it's theirrelationships or their self-care
or is it their subconsciousprogramming this challenge in you
know what is it that's going onthat's making this problem a
challenge for them if they have aproblem and that's completely free

(01:13:13):
so anyone can go and take that andthey they get a 38 page report that
gives them tons of tools andtechniques and tips to actually
work on the problems that wereidentified in the assessment and
anyone can go and take that insideaddiction.co .uk forward slash why
and it's completely free to go thereand just take it and get all of that
advice and help us like a good firststep. Awesome I didn't know that.

(01:13:35):
Where else can people find you is itjust your website? Just inside
addiction. Just Google insideaddiction or my name Luke Westfold
but the main place to go is to go andhave a look at that assessment
inside addiction to code UK forwardslash why and then they can start
there and start to get a bit ofinformation about everything
that's going on. Awesome well Lukethank you so much for coming on

(01:13:58):
despite all the technicaldifficulties the time differences
all the crazy shit thank you so muchyou've been a complete trooper and I
genuinely appreciate your time.Perfect thank you so much Chris is
absolutely amazing and thank youfor your dedication to the audience
and being up at 5 a.m. and smashingout this podcast together you've
been an amazing host thanks so much.