You Asked For It: Real Talk on Mental Health

Episode Transcript
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Pastor Brent McQuay (00:11):
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode
of Between Sermons, where we are continuing
the conversation from Sunday. And, man, what
a conversation we had on Sunday, because
we are tackling a very serious issue,
a very large issue in the world,
and that is the issue of mental
health. And so I would love if
you hadn't listened to that message. I
really do encourage you to take a

(00:33):
listen to the full message because we
got into some stuff, some truths that
I think that every believer needs to
hear, because I think there's been some
damage done in this area of mental
health by the church. And so we
need to bring some correction, but highly
recommend that we're going to continue that
conversation. But first, we have 15 questions
from you that you submitted during the

(00:55):
you asked for it series. And so
we're gonna answer 15 questions today. And
in order to do that, I have
the lovely picking something out of her
eye. Joni Bishop, thanks for coming to
me. Right then, you tried really hard
to, like, be done doing that before
the camera came to you.

Joni Bishop (01:11):
Like, he started a sentence. He's gonna
go. He's gonna go. Nope, nope.

I just threw you right under the
bus.

It's fine.

Thank you. How's your eyes?

Fantastic. I'm wearing one contact today, so.

You're wearing one contact. I'm wearing zero
contacts. Usually I wear two. I hope
that usually you wear two.

I do normally wear two, yes.

Okay.

And then my left and my right
are different prescriptions, so I can't even,
like, swap the one from the right
for the left. I'm out of lefts.
It's just. It's a thing, man. It's
a thing. We're good.

First world problems.

First world problems.

Well, we won't delay because we got
15 questions, and then we got to
talk about mental health. And actually, the
last few of our questions are directed
towards that subject matter, so we're going
to jump in. Joanie, why did God
create humans?

God created humans for a very specific
purpose, which is.

You have no idea. Like, Brent, answer
this one. Okay. Yeah. So why did
God create humans? I think the simple
answer to that is for his pleasure.
And we actually. We see that in
scripture in multiple places where it talks
about, you know, our role on this
earth is to bring glory to God.
So I think that you could make
an argument that it's just purely out

(02:20):
of pleasure. I did hear somebody make
a huge argument that, like, God had
to create something, like, human in order
to express love to them. And so
if he had created, like, he couldn't
create other gods, like, himself because he
declares there is only one God. So,

(02:40):
like, he can't. He can't create an
equal, or else then he'd become a
liar. Like, it's. It's a weird theological,
like, I don't know, conversation or discussion.
So. Couldn't create something on his level.
Needed to create something on a lower
level. Couldn't create something with no autonomy
or no free will, because then it's
not general. It's not a choice. The

(03:02):
reciprocation of love. And so humanity makes
the most sense where we're made in
the image of God, but we're not
God.

Yeah, that makes sense. I've never heard
that. That theory before.

Yeah. This is really interesting. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah.

So. But the short answer is because
he wanted to, and that works. I
mean, we could ask him.

We could.

Anyways. Ooh, Joanie, are you gonna pass
this question back to me, too? Do
you believe in generational curses? Can it
still impact you after accepting Jesus as
lord and savior of your life? And
I have a very controversial take on
this, so I want to hear your
answer first.

Okay, my take?

Or else I'll answer, and you'll be.

Like, my take on generational curses? I
think that this is tough, because I
feel like there are certain things, like,
if I'm in a family that deals
with alcoholism, and the culture of that
family is alcoholism, that through. Through that
culture, I feel like that curse can

(04:02):
be passed. But say my family deals
with alcoholism, and I'm adopted out, and
I'm raised by a completely different family.
Does that generational curse of alcoholism then
follow me into a new situation where
I have not been brought up in
that culture? I don't. I don't. I
don't know. I'm gonna. I'm erring on
the side of. That's. That's a tough

(04:22):
one. I don't know that I've seen
direct evidence that it can be a
thing.

Yeah.

So I think culture wise, yes. But
straight up, like, it's gonna follow me
no matter what, if I'm raised in
that culture or not, I'm iffy.

Yeah. So that's why I said that
I have kind of a controversial take
on it, because I know that there's
a lot of denominations, a lot of
churches that talk about generational curses all
the time. Problem is, that doesn't show
up in Bible. And I take my
stuff from Bible, not from, you know,
tradition or anything. And I want to
make sure that it's. It's grounded in
scripture. The only scripture that we have

(04:56):
that would even imply anything like that
is when God talks about passing judgment
on to, you know, what is it,
the third generation or fourth generation, your
children's children kind of thing. But even
when you read that it was specific
to the Old Testament, we don't see
that in the new. It was specific
to the nation of Israel. It was
specific to the nation of Israel because

(05:17):
of idolatry. And on top of that,
he follows it up with, if you'll
just repent, then he goes into, my
blessings on you will go to the
hundredth generation. Like, basically his blessing completely
overshadows the punishment. But again, this isn't
a curse. This is God's judgment on

(05:38):
the nation of Israel for idolatry. So,
like, I have a hard time biblically
being like, yeah, generational curses. But I
think where we've gotten, it's almost like
a real world parallel. And what's happened
is what you talked about is if
I am raised in a family that's
got this issue, chances are I'm going
to continue. I'm going to perpetuate that

(06:00):
problem. So if it's a family of
alcoholics where, you know, like, I had
a friend in school that, like, he
drank his first beer when he was
like, ten because his dad handed it
to him. Like, it's. It's one of
those where it's like, okay, yeah, if
your family's struggling with this issue, it's
probably going to be passed on. The
only other caveat that I would give
is I do believe that there are

(06:21):
spiritual influences on things. And so, like,
I learned this lesson. I was. I
was ministering in a city that they
stopped me, or they didn't stop. They
were giving me kind of a tour.
They talked about how there was a
curse on this area of division. And
I was like, that seems really weird.
And they're like, no, the spirit of
division is really heavy in this area.

(06:43):
And as I started talking with people,
every single person I talked to was
divorced, had family that was like, their
parents were divorced, was like multiple divorces.
Every church that I talked to, it
was like, well, we're the church that
split from this church, and that church
split from this church. Like, it was
like every church in the area had
some kind of roots back to the
same church, like 200 years before. But

(07:04):
it was like division after division after
division. And so, you know, some might
call that generational curse. I think that
there is a demonic influence in that
area towards division. So I think you
take the spiritual world happening and you
take the reality of if you're raised
by an alcoholic and you don't do
something to change that, then you're probably

(07:26):
going to raise alcoholics. Like, it just.
It perpetuates. So I get where people
come up with the generational curses thing,
but it's not all that biblical.

Yeah.

Not in the way that people talk
about it. And even if it is
the only example of it in scripture,
the solution was repentance.

So, yeah. So, basically, to answer that
question, yes. Once you come to Christ,
even if you do believe in generational
curses, you're good.

You're good. Yeah. Repent and don't do
the same things that other people did
and don't blame it on. That's my
problem. When somebody's like, well, it's just
this generational curse that we're under. It's
like, no, you chose to sleep around
and cheat on your wife, so now
you're divorced.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm a jerk.

Sometimes it's easier to attribute something to
the devil than to my own bad
choices.

100%. Yeah. Or it's God's judgment on
me. God's punishing me. It's like, no,
these are called consequences. Like, you. You
did something you weren't supposed to do,
and now you're going to prison. Like,
is that God's judgment on you? No,
that's called the government. That's called, you
broke a lawful consequences. Now you have
to deal with the consequences. Yeah, for
sure. All right, joni, how do you

(08:31):
stop smoking? How do you stop smoking
nicotine and weed after doing it for
three years and wanting to stop for
a closer relationship with God?

I think we want to start by
submitting that to God so we'll get
super spiritual. So you want to submit
that. So it's a habit that you've
established over years, meaning that it's probably
going to be hard, very difficult, to
just stop one day and decide, hey,
I'm going to be done with this.
So I've seen it done. I've heard
of it done. God can miraculously come
and absolutely stop that thing in your
life in an instant for other people,

(09:07):
it takes time. It takes work. It's
a process. So I think coming to
a place of humility before God and
saying, hey, I'm giving this to you.
This is gonna be hard for me.
I need your strength in this moment.
I need your power in this moment
to help me walk through this. That
would be, I would say, maybe connect
with your doctor. There are medical ways
to help step down from smoking. There
are, like, nicotine gum or patches or

(09:28):
things like that that can help through
the process.

This is addiction. It's a genuine thing.

It's a real thing. I'd say, find
somebody you can be accountable with, so
find an accountability partner. Find somebody that
knows that you can be honest with.

That's the only thing I was gonna
add to the conversation, so thank you.

You're welcome.

You just nailed it. And see, you
were like, can I read the questions
instead? And I was like, no, jonah,
you got good answers. We want to
hear from you, too. But, yeah, yeah,
I think you're wanting to have a
closer relationship with God. So do the
things that everybody else does to have
a closer relationship with God. Submit that
area to him, and, yeah, get the
help from outside sources that you need.

(10:06):
It is cool when, you know, somebody
has a testimony. Like, I've got some
friends that were like, I gave my
life to Jesus, and I never wanted
this thing ever again. I was like,
that's awesome. Then I'll be talking to,
like, another person that's like, yeah, I've
been struggling with this thing for my
whole life. I got. I got saved,
and it's still there.

No, it's awesome when you hear those
stories of the. Of the instant miracles
of God. But, like, sometimes it's a
process, and so if you are in
that situation, don't beat yourself up.

Yeah.

Like, it's okay.

And I would say the default is
actually. It's a process. It's actually the.
The unique moments are the just quick
miracles. And God is sovereign, so he
chooses why he does it that way
for some. Yeah. All right. How do
you discipline your children that you see
going the wrong route? How do you
discipline your children you see going the

(10:52):
wrong route? So with this question, I'm
going to jump in first. I think
part of the challenge of answering this
person's question is, we don't know how
old the children are, and we don't
know what's wrong. How do you define
the wrong route?

What are you disciplining them for?

Right. So if my six year old
is going the wrong route because I
told them to clean the room and
they're not, like, the discipline there is
probably going to be different than, you
know, my 18 year old, who. The
route they're going on is drug addiction,
and, you know, they're planning on robbing
a bank later. Like, these are very

(11:28):
different scenarios. And so because we don't
have a lot of information for this,
I don't know what's kind of your
take on disciplining kids when you kind
of see them starting to go off
in the wrong direction.

My initial thought in having, so where
we are in our parenting journey, we
have a 21 year old, an 18
year old and a twelve year old.
So kind of have that wide variety
of ages. We've walked through so many
stages of parenting and disciplining and problems
along the way. And so the thought
that comes to mind is if I

(12:09):
see one of my kids going the
wrong way, I don't want to, in
my desire to pull them back to
where they need to be, I don't
want to push them away in that
process. So I think, and this is
thinking of my older kids, like you
said, we don't know the context of
the question, but for my kids, I
want to be sure that however I'm
directing them and guiding them is from

(12:30):
a place of love and not from
a place of anger, not from a
place of frustration, not from a place
that's going to cause a divide between
us. So, and sometimes that love is
tough and sometimes that love is a
lot of nos and hard decisions, but
I think rooting everything that I'm doing
in that moment and in that situation,
rooting it in love, rooting it, submitting

(12:52):
it to the Lord and asking for
his wisdom and his guidance and his
direction in that, because ultimately, like, God
loves our kids more than we do
and he has the best answer for
what to do.

Yeah, I think for me personally, like,
if I can't discipline my kids with
a calm voice, then it's, I'm not
the right one to discipline them, or
it's not the right moment to discipline
them because I need to be able.
Now, there are times when I'll use
dad voice because they need the thing,
but that's, that's still controlled.

Right.

It's, if my discipline is coming out
in wrath, then it's not really discipline
anymore. It's just, it's abuse and scriptures.
Scripture is pretty clear about not doing
that. Right. Scripture tells us to discipline
our children, but it also, you know,
talks about not right, not being angry,
but it also talks about, I'm trying
to remember the verse specifically, but it
talks about, like, not, not giving your

(13:41):
kids, like, a reason to leave the
faith kind of thing. Like, it's like,
if you're driving them away, you know,
that's not healthy, that's not good. And
so, yeah, I think that there's a
lot of balance that has to be
taken with this. And so it is
one of those where I don't know
that I can give anybody just a
blanket. You know, this is how you
do it. Because the age, the. The

(14:02):
route that they're taking, you know, what's
wrong with it? I say the younger
they are, I think the more control
you need to have. As they get
older, you start giving them the tools
for, okay, this is why we do
these things, so that they can start
making those decisions themselves. Cause what ends
up happening is if you take that
whole I control everything route, they turn

(14:24):
18, and then they leave the house,
and now you have no control. But
they've never learned why. So all it
is is just rebellion against mom or
rebellion against dad for the rules. So
I think as they start getting older,
in those early teen years, especially, you
know, giving them more freedom, but giving
them more instruction for, hey, this is
why we do things. And even in

(14:44):
that, like, so, like, we've got a
personal policy with our kids is, like,
church is not optional. So, like, you
know, I don't care. You know, as
long as you're living in my house,
you're going to church on Sunday. Like,
and that's. That's, like, a personal decision
for us because, yeah, I want them
to love going to church, but. But
I also don't want that to be
optional. Right. Like. Cause if they have
the option, like, my oldest is gonna

(15:05):
sleep in. Cause he likes sleep. My
youngest is gonna choose whatever is convenient
at the time. Like, it's just. It's
a mess, so.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I think that this is
a complicated one.

Yeah.

All right. What can you do to
overcome the hurdle of comparing yourself to
christians that may be further in their
spiritual journey than you are? So that
comparison trap, we actually talked about that
a little bit in the message yesterday
when we were talking about mental health
and the dangers of comparing. And I
think, for me, how to overcome that

(15:39):
is just to recognize that they used
to be where you are. Right. And
so it's not your job to catch
up to them. Your job is to
catch up with Jesus, and that's the
race you're running for the rest of
your life. You know, it's. He's that
pace car or whatever. That's, like, always
gonna be in front of you. Just.

(16:00):
You just gotta kind of, you know,
keep chasing it. Yeah, but we're not
chasing after other christians. We're not chasing
after what they've achieved. We're chasing after
Jesus. And so, you know, there. There
are people that have been saved less
years than I have, that have more
wisdom and pray better than I do,
and all that. And I think that
the time is not really relevant. You

(16:21):
know, there's some that mature quickly. There's
some that mature slowly. I think the
point is you. You focus on you
getting closer to Jesus.

Yeah. And at the end of our
lives, like, my. My life and my
actions are not going to be compared
to Brent McQuay. It's going to be
Christ.

Yeah.

And like you said, making sure that
that is our focus, that is our
goal. And I also think, to add
to that, I think that having a
firm understanding of your own identity really
helps in those moments. Because instead of
saying, man, I wish I was more
like Brent, like, but who has God
called me personally to be? And am
I.

Am I just for the record, nobody
should want to be more like Brent.

That's not like, am I walking the
path that God has for me specifically?
Am I. Am I finding my identity
in Christ and in Christ alone? And
I think once you have those things
established, I think it gets a little
bit easier. It's not a cure all,
but I think it gets easier to
be able to stop comparing.

Yeah.

When you know, you know your actual
identity. When you know who God has
called you to be.

Yeah. Yeah. I hate that. My answer
is basically like, how do you stop
doing something? Well, stop doing it. Like.
Like, I guess, like, to a degree
like that. That it, like, because it's
a decision you're making. It's a choice
you're making. And so, like, at some
point, like, every time your mind goes
to, well, I'm not as good at
just. No.

Right.

Take that thought captive.

Exactly.

Right. Because it's not. It's not healthy,
it's not good, it's not true. Because
when we get to heaven, you know,
God's not going. You know, when I
compare you to, you know, Joni Bishop,
you know, mmm. No, it's okay. Do
you know Christ? And what did you
do with your life in that endeavor?
So, yeah, focus on Jesus. Don't focus

(18:04):
on others. Yeah. All right, question number
six. How does a person figure out
God's purpose for their life? Dun dun
dun. You want me to take that
one?

Take it.

All right. Yeah. So you think about
it for a while. While I just
say things, words will just come out
of my mouth. I firmly believe that
purpose is a puzzle and God gives
you a piece at a time. So
what I mean by that is you've
never finished figuring it out. It's a

(18:39):
journey you continue to. So what is.
What is God's purpose for me today
or in this season? Is probably a
more important question to ask then, what's
my purpose for life? The answer to
the question what's your purpose for life?
Is to glorify God and to bring
as many people to him as possible.
That's your purpose. That's everybody's purpose. That's
the purpose of life. Now, how are

(19:03):
you going to do that? What's your
specific role in that? What's your specific
purpose? And, and what's my purpose for
today? Like, what am I going to
accomplish today in that endeavor? What am
I going to accomplish in this season?
And so in order to discover that,
I think you need to spend time
with God. I think you need to
listen to the Holy Spirit guiding you.

(19:24):
I think you need to be in
your word because your purpose is not
going to be found outside of the
pages of scripture. And if it's contradicting
scripture, then that's not purpose. And so
get time in the word, get time
with God that when the Holy Spirit
speaks, you hear his voice, right? And
he says, I'm the good shepherd and
my sheep know my voice, right? So
when God's speaking, are you listening? Are
you paying attention? Are you doing the
things that he's told you to do?

(19:46):
And then I love the intersection. So
we talk about this in growth track.
So it's the idea of shape. So
this is how God has shaped you,
is where your purpose lies. And so
it's your spiritual gifts. So what are
the supernatural gifts that God has placed
in your life and the way you
interact with people? So what's your spiritual

(20:07):
gifts? What is your heart? What's your
passion? What are the things that you
just care deeply about? So, like, when
I'm talking with somebody and they, I
mean, they're getting teary eyed and they're
just, their heart is breaking. When they
talk about, you know, a homeless situation,
it's like, I think you got a
purpose in there. Like, you're supposed to
do something about that. So what are
you passionate about? Where's your heart? The

(20:27):
a is for your abilities. What are
you good at? You know, the easy
example is people are like, I have
such a heart for worship, and then
they can't sing or play an instrument.
It's like, okay, that's a great thing
to have a passion for, but it's
probably not your purpose. If you need
some ability to back up the thing
that you're doing and then p is
for your personality, how has God wired

(20:48):
you? And that helps us really to
understand within the context of, here's where
my passion is, well, because of my
personality, here's the things that I'd be
really good at within that. And then
your e is the experiences that you
have. And that's both the good experiences
and the bad experiences. Example we use
is there's a woman who had gone
through dozens of abortions. It was. It

(21:11):
was a crazy astronomical number. And she
gave her life to Christ, recognized that
that was not the behavior that was
good for her, but then turned her
life around and began to minister to
women who were facing abortion decisions where
she could, became. Became a counselor for
them. And so it was like she
took this negative experience in her life

(21:32):
and used it to bring others to
God, to glorify him. So your shape
plays a big part in it. But,
yeah, my focus is, what's my purpose
today? Or maybe what's my purpose in
this season more than just life.

And I love that. It makes it
more bite sized. It feels more not
attainable. It feels more manageable than, like,
my entire life. What is my goal?

It needs a little bit more freedom
because, like, if you blow it, you
blew it for today, not for your
entire life. It's like, okay. Yeah, yeah.
Anything to add?

So I. No, I would just say
definitely prayer. Make sure it lines up
with scripture. And even having. Having people
around you who can speak into something.
So if you're getting ready to make
a big decision, I mean, surround yourself
with people who. Who you trust, who
can speak into your situation, who will
also have some godly wisdom to help
you recognize those things in your life,
too. So that's it?

Yeah. And for everybody going, man, Brent's
so smart. He pulled that shape thing
and all that. No, that's Rick Warren.
I just stole it to him. But
we use it here at CLC because
it's brilliant. It's great. It's fantastic. All
right, question number seven. How should we
create healthy relationships with loved ones, work
members, community members, church members. How do
you have healthy relationships with people? You

(22:48):
have healthy relationships, right, Joni?

Yeah. I mean, I think healthy relationships,
you need regular communication, so make sure
you're reaching out. You have touch points.
Coming at relationships from a place of
love and humility. I've seen so many
relationships wrecked by pride and things like
that. So, yeah, healthy relationships. Base it

(23:10):
in love, base it in contact. It's
hard to have a relationship with somebody
without no communication.

Yeah. I think add the golden rule.
Treat others the way you want to
be treated. If you're treating people pretty
poorly, that's not going to be a
very healthy relationship. And then Jesus just
talks about serving people.

Yeah.

Over and over again. So you want
healthy relationships? Don't just go into a
relationship for what you can get out
of it.

Yes.

And I think there's a lot of
people out there that are very. They're
takers.

Take.

Yeah, just give me. Gimme, gimme, gimme.
Yeah. Those usually don't result in healthy
relationships. And when I say usually, that
was an understatement. It never results in
a healthy relationship. I think that every
healthy relationship has give and take. And
so we follow instruction from scripture. We
follow Jesus, we follow the Holy Spirit.
We love, we serve, we spend time
together. Yeah, I like it. All right,

(24:02):
John, you're gonna love this one. Does
Christianity support a patriarchal view?

Short answer. No.

No elaboration. Just expand.

So my answer is, we're created equal,
male and female. He created them. I
feel like before God, we have. There
is equality. We are created uniquely, but
there is equality. So in the equality,
I don't see patriarchy.

Yeah. So my answer is a little
bit different, but similar. My answer is
actually yes, but, like, with an asterisk
or with a but no attached to
it. So I think, is there a
patriarchal view? I mean, you can't go
through the Old Testament without seeing patriarchy.
It's Father Abraham, and it works through

(24:56):
this headship conversation. We see that even
in the New Testament writings, in Paul
talking about the husband's role in the
marriage, the wife's role in the marriage.
So is there a patriarchal view in
scripture? I would say yes, but my
no is where that doesn't mean what
I think people intend it to mean.

Not necessarily prescriptive, though. You think?

I think in the new testament, yeah,
because in the New Testament, it's literally
instruction for, like, hey, this is how
you should function in your marriage. So
that's no longer descriptive. I would say
old Testament. Sure, it could very well
could be descriptive, but then Paul connects
it to Adam and Eve and the
creation there. So what I was gonna
get at, though, until you. So lovely.

(25:41):
Interrupted. Because this is, this is, this
is a. This is a hot subject,
right. For people. Because I think that
people that hold this patriarchal view often
abuse that and make it such an
ugly thing. So then we look at
it, and we're like, well, that can't
be Bible. No, that's just. Somebody has
abused this.

This is true.

This is an abuse, because what Paul
talks about is how a husband should
die for his spouse the way that
Christ died for the church. Right. So,
like, in this patriarchal view, does that
mean, you know, the husband comes home,
takes off his shoes, sits on the
couch with a beer, and tells his
woman to go make dinner? No, like,

(26:23):
a husband should be leading in every
area of the marriage, which means, hey,
doing the dishes, cleaning the house, taking
care of the kids, all of that.

He's honoring their serving.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. There's a sacrificial role
in this. So it's one of those,
like, where Jesus even says, if you
want to be the greatest, you need
to be the servant of all. So
when we say patriarchal view, sure. Make
you the greatest and then follow Jesus
example and make yourself the lowest.

Okay.

So is Christian. Does Christianity support a
patriarchal view? Kind of, but not in
the way the world interprets that.

I'd agree. I'd agree with that.

Look at that. We came to resolution
together.

Way to go.

Yeah. So, guys, don't be jerks.

Exactly.

That's. Yep. Yeah. And that's usually the
issue. It's usually not the woman's problem.

It's not usually the woman being too
submitted.

Right. Yeah, yeah. And there are. There
are people that I'm like, actually, you're
a little too submitted in that, like,
yeah, no, your husband was wrong, and
you need to be able to voice
that. So, yeah, yeah, it's sticky. Anyways,
when we enter heaven, will we recognize
our loved ones, maintain our marriages, or
will everyone be the same age? So

(27:33):
it's kind of three questions in one.
They kind of cheated a little bit,
so heaven, we'll take them one at
a time. Heaven, do you recognize your
loved ones?

Yes.

Yes.

Because scripture talks about seeing different people
in heaven and, like, great heroes of
the faith. So, yes, people are identifiable.

Yeah. So to run down the list,
so you've got Elijah and Moses are
seen in their heavenly form, Abraham, Lazarus,
and the rich ruler. They're having, like,
this whole conversation. They recognize each other.
There's the weird story in the Old
Testament of Samuel. After Samuel's dead, Saul

(28:11):
wants to talk to Samuel about stuff,
so he goes to the Witch of
Endor, which totally sounds like a Star
wars movie. The Witch of Endor. Somebody
needs to get on that title. And
so he summons the dead body of
Samuel, and he she describes him, and
he, they recognize this is Samuel. So,
like, there's recognition after that Jesus has

(28:31):
his transfigured body. And so, yeah, I
think that absolutely, we recognize loved ones.
Second question. Maintain our marriages. No, no,
because Jesus says, no, there's no marriage
in heaven. And that can be devastating
for someone they hear that. However, what

(28:54):
scripture also tells us is that we're
imperfect now, what we'll know then is
perfection. And so the relationship that I
have with my spouse, now, there's ugliness
in it. Like, I mess up, she
messes up, or we're struggling through this.
The relationship that my wife and I
will have in heaven is going to
be pure. It's going to be perfect.

(29:15):
There's going to be none of that.
And so some look at that as
like, oh, man, I'm losing my spouse.
But I think that it's not that.
Yeah. And I put my faith and
my trust. I said faith. Weird. Just
then. I don't know what's wrong with
my voice. So I put my faith
and my trust in a good God.
Right. So if heaven is the place
that I'm supposed to go to, it's

(29:36):
the good place. It's the place that,
you know, God's glory is manifest, then
I'm not going to be worried about,
oh, man, I miss my marriage. No,
I don't think you have any regrets
or any, anything that you miss when
you're in heaven because you're just surrounded
by God's glory.

Yeah. And the way I see it
is marriage is a gift that is
given to us by God. And if
in God's wisdom, he chooses to not
have that be a part of our
eternity in heaven, there's a reason for
that. And I'm going to trust that
it's going to be okay that he's
not removing that aspect of us in
our relationship that now all of a

(30:11):
sudden.

For bad reason, it was better before.

Right?

I don't think anybody's going to have
that reaction. And, yeah, you're right. That
marriage was supposed to be. It's an
example. Like, it's, marriage was, first of
all, for procreation, and we don't need
procreation in heaven. But it was also
this example that we have of the
way that Christ loves the church. Husband
and wife are supposed to love each

(30:34):
other and serve each other well. We
don't need that example anymore because we're
in heaven with Jesus. And so, yeah,
it's just not necessary in the grand
scheme, but of, yeah, it's definitely something
that I've struggled with at times where
I'm like, I actually like my wife
a lot. I would very much like
to continue a relationship with her in
heaven. And I think that in heaven,

(30:55):
on the new earth, really is what
we should be talking about. I think
my relationship with my wife is going
to be better than it is now.
It's just going to be different. And
then will everyone be the same age?
I'll jump in and just say, we
have no idea. There's absolutely no indication
of age in heaven. We're given new
bodies. What, what that looks like or

(31:17):
what not. I don't know. Jesus new
body still had the scars, but I
don't know if that was specific to
Jesus because he needed to demonstrate to
Thomas. I don't know. I don't know
how that works because the Bible doesn't
tell us. Yeah, I don't know. How
old would you want to be in
heaven?

Give me maybe mid twenties. So, smart
enough, fully grown. But things don't hurt
yet. Yeah, I mean, I know in
heaven nothing's gonna hurt, but the body
was still functioning at 100% at that
time.

I looked a lot better several years
ago, so maybe I'd. Maybe I'd go
with that, but is that vain? I
was like, I don't know. I don't
know what age I want to be
in heaven.

I don't know.

Just whatever God makes me, I'm happy
with that.

I'll be happy with it.

All right, so here we go. We're
now into our mental health questions, which
is going to lead us into the
conversation about the sermon, but real quick.
And we hit a bunch of these
in the sermon. So these can be
like, super short answers, but is it
okay as a Christian to have a
therapist?

Yes.

Not only okay, encouraged.

If you need, everybody should go to
counseling. Everybody.

What are your thoughts on christians using
medication for depression, anxiety, etcetera?

Please. If your doctor says this is
going to be beneficial for you, listen
to your doctor and do it.

Yes, agreed. 1000%, actually. Just had a
conversation with somebody who was like, yeah,
my doctor told me to take this
medicine. I wasn't taking it. And then
in your sermon yesterday, you told me
that I should be taking it, so
I'm going to start taking it. And
I was like, hey, good for you.
I'm glad you're listening to your doctor.
It's a little bit weird that you
needed your pastor to tell you to
listen to your doctor, but, you know,
it's all right. We love everybody. We're

(32:59):
all on a journey, right?

Yeah.

All right. How does our church provide
support to those in the church that
may be battling mental illness, such as
schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or borderline personality disorder?
I'll jump in on this one, because
those are, those go beyond our care.
So, like, our counseling department deals with
grief and anxiety and touches into depression.

(33:22):
But when you start getting into major
mental illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or
borderline personality disorder, you absolutely need medication
in that. And our team can't give
you drugs. So. Yeah. So how does
our church provide support? If you contact
our counseling department, if they meet with

(33:44):
you, they discover that these are the
issues that are going on. They have
facilities that they'll recommend. They have professional,
ongoing care that they'll recommend. So we
have support for those. We just don't
do it ourselves because we're not equipped
for that. Yeah. How do you keep
your faith strong and close to God

(34:04):
when you have depression? We didn't touch
on this in the message.

So holding on to what you know
is true, rehearsing those things, that, that's
why it's so important during those times
to be in the word, to be
filling yourself up with truth, because especially
in times of depression, like, you can
have those things coming against you that
try to cause confusion or doubt or
frustration. And I think by staying in

(34:31):
your word and memorizing scripture, rehearsing what
you know is true, like, just filling
yourself up with truth, that is going
to help you through that process.

Yeah, you absolutely. In depression, you feel
like not doing anything. And that is
awful. Like, you have to push through
that and you may need counseling in
order to help you push through that.
But you absolutely, if you're going to
keep your faith strong and stay close
to God, you need to continue doing

(35:00):
the things that everybody does, regardless of
depression. So, like, you could actually remove
depression from this equation. The answer is
still the same. You need to spend
time in God's word. You need to
spend time in community of believers, you
need to spend time in prayer, spend
time in worship. Like, all of these
things, whether you're depressed or not depressed,
you need to do them. When you're
depressed, you need to push through.

Yes.

And make the extra effort to actually
do it. And then I would just.
I would recommend, I mentioned, I think,
in both messages yesterday, but the book
by Chris Hodges out of the cave.
So he, he talks through Elijah's story.
And honestly, like, the. The advice from

(35:44):
that book, I think is, is so
needed for anybody battling depression. So highly,
highly, highly recommend you get a copy
of Chris Hodges out of the cave.
It's a brilliant case study of Elijah.
And you're gonna love it because one
of the things that Elijah did was
he took a nap and he ate
a snack.

Love it.

I mean, it's just eat a meal
and sleep for a little bit. Like,
that is some Bible based advice. I
can get behind. That's some amazing wisdom.
Have a snack and take a nap.
Come on, man. We're battling depression one
snack at a time. But. Yes, but
the whole book, there's a lot of
great stuff. And then the encounter that

(36:24):
Elijah has in that moment with God
is beautiful. And so. Yeah, cool. All
right. Why is mental health stigmatized in
the church? Medication is frowned upon. Therapy
with a professional is not always encouraged.
How can a person receive grace, strive
toward healing in the mind, and not
feel ashamed or feel like they don't
have enough faith to be made? Well,

(36:45):
so we talked about this a bunch
on Sunday. What's your experience been? Because,
like, part of. Part of my struggle
even, you know, when I got that
question was, that's not my experience. Because,
like. So CLC was started in 1990.
I think our counseling department got started
in 93 or 94. So it was
in the first three or four years
that we actually launched it. And before

(37:06):
that, we just didn't have enough people
in order to launch something like that.
So, like, mental health and counseling, it
was. It's been encouraged practically, you could
say, since day one of this church
that I was raised in, and I
went from here to new life in
Colorado Springs. They had the same mindset,
like, they had a whole counseling department.
We actually got some of our resources

(37:26):
from them. So, like, my whole, like,
faith journey, the church has been like,
no, you need to be strong spiritually
and mentally. But I know that that's
not the story everywhere.

It's not the story everywhere. And in
my personal experience in dealing with depression
and going to counseling and taking medication,
the big c church. So the church
universal, has not always handled it well.
Our church, specifically, CLC, has done a
fantastic job in this area. So why

(37:57):
the discrepancy? I think sometimes churches can
be rooted in a place of tradition
where they're afraid to make forward progress
or afraid they're afraid to move. Like,
I even know some people in my
own life who, older generations who, when
I was battling some serious depression and

(38:18):
some things like that, talking to them
about it. And there's just a lack
of understanding, especially, and I don't want
to throw an entire age group under
the bus, but I feel like younger
generations have more of an understanding. It
is something that is being talked about
more. More widely and more comfortably. So
the younger, the younger the person is,
the more accepting they are of it.
The older the person is, in my

(38:39):
experience, the less they understand about it.
So it's harder for them to accept
just because, especially, like, you have somebody
in their sixties, seventies, eighties who they
were raised with. You don't talk about
mental health like that. That's a private
thing. That's a very personal thing. So,
like, automatically you become shut off to
it and it's like, it's embarrassing to
discuss. So CLC, in my experience, has
done a great job. Big sea church,

(39:01):
maybe not so great. I feel like
we're moving in the right direction. A
lot of progress still needs to be
made, though.

Yeah. I can even say from personal
experience, my father in law, when my
mother in law passed away, he was
really struggling, and the whole family was
like, you need to get into a
grief counseling scenario. You need to talk
with somebody. And he literally said to
us, he said, I talked to Jesus.
That's enough. And it was like, yes

(39:28):
and no, right? Like, it's not. It's
not enough. Not because Jesus isn't enough,
but because this is, this is how
God put together the world. Like, he.
That's the thing that bothers me, I
think the most, is that when we
discount counseling and therapy and medication, is
saying, well, that's not trusting in God,
when God's the one that orchestrated that.

(39:49):
Like, one of the previous questions we
had was about finding purpose. Well, there
are people who have found purpose in
helping others. Like, that's. That's the thing
that God put them here for, is
to be able to help you. Right.

And so gifted them.

Yes. Specifically for this. Like, Kiana, the
head of our counseling department, like, God
has equipped her and gifted her. There's
a grace on her for these conversations.
And it's like, you're just gonna push
aside God and the help that he
sent. There's that old joke of like,
there's a flood coming. And the person's
like, neighbor drives their car by and

(40:24):
says, hey, jump in the car. We're
getting out of here. And the guy's
like, no, no, no, God will save
me. Then he, you know, the waters
rise. He climbs up, you know, on
the second floor, and a boat comes
by and is like, dude, get in
the car or get in the boat,
man. Like. And he's like, no, no,
no, God's gonna save me. And he
climbs up on the roof, and a
helicopter comes by, drops down a ladder
and is like, come up the ladder.
And the guy's like, no, no, no,

(40:44):
God's gonna save me. Drowns, goes to
heaven. He's like, God, what? Why didn't
you save me? He's like, man, I
sent a car, a boat, a plane.
Like, what more did you want from
me? Like, God has sent the resources
that we need. God has sent the
help that we need. And, yeah, we're
going to trust in him. Yeah, there's
still power in prayer. Yeah, miracles still
happen. But why would we discount all

(41:05):
of the other tools that God has
given for us to find healing? So
I think that maybe the reason why
there's some churches that turn their nose
at these things or put them down
is a lack of understanding. You know,
I use the word ignorance, and sometimes
that's like an inflammatory word that you're
ignorant, but it just means you lack
knowledge. Like, you don't know this stuff.

(41:27):
And so you've kind of gotten to
this place where it's like, but Jesus
is my savior. And it's like, yes,
he is, but he also sent these
things. And so putting our faith in
God includes trusting in the medicine that
he's given us. And it's weird to
me that, like, we don't. We don't
apply this to other things. At least
the general. There are some christians out

(41:49):
there that are like, I wouldn't do
chemotherapy because, you know, God's gonna be
my healer. But I think those people
are even more few and far between
than the mental health side of it.
But, yeah, use the resource that God's
given you.

Use the resources.

No shame. You know, he gave them
to you for a reason.

Right?

All right, last question. What does scripture
say about healthy boundaries with knowing your
limits in serving, work, family, etcetera? What
would Jesus say about overextending yourself? And
I included this question in the mental
health segment because I think when we
have unhealthy boundaries, it creates a mental

(42:27):
health issue. And so I think that
these are kind of interwoven and not
knowing your limits, especially in serving and
work and family and all that stuff.
Overextending yourself? I think, man, it's actually,
we were talking a little bit before
the show. It's like, it's the one
thing that I didn't talk about in
the message that if I had an
extra ten minutes, I probably would have.

(42:48):
But I really wanted to get to
that. That altar call. Really wanted to
get that altar call, man, that was
beautiful.

That's powerful.

So, yeah. So what's your take on
the healthy boundaries question?

Healthy boundaries? We are told to take
a Sabbath literally out of seven days.
One of those days, we are supposed
to rest. We are supposed to not
be. Not be doing the hustle, not
be doing the grind, like, we are
told to rest for a specific reason.
And I think that's a principle that
should be established. That rhythm should be
established in our lives. I think that

(43:19):
is something for our own good, for
our own health, to take those moments
of stopping and resting and just being
instead of doing so. There's wisdom there.
I know personally, in my own life,
there are seasons where it doesn't look
like it should. There are a lot
of seasons. It doesn't look like it
should. But the principle is there, and
I think God gave it to us
for a very good reason and that

(43:40):
more of us really need to pay
attention to it instead of just brushing
it off.

Absolutely. So how do you find healthy
boundaries? How do you or not find
they're not something you find? It's something
you create. Right. It's something you have
to intentionally put into place. So, I
don't know, maybe. Maybe walk us through
the process that you've gone through or
even some of the boundaries that you've
had to set up as inspiration for

(44:04):
others.

I don't know that I'm the right
person to ask about this because honest,
like, this is something that I'm still
figuring out. Like, literally, my counseling session
last week was talking about no. Like,
the power of no and learning how
to say no. And it's okay if
somebody's disappointed if you say no. So
literally, like, I'm pretty sure I.

Had a conversation with you a couple
weeks ago.

I was in your office a couple
weeks ago. We talked about no. So,
like, this is a theme in my
life.

So I don't take your counselor out
to dinner. They're just supporting all of
the things I say.

So, like, I don't have the answer
of, hey, I figured it out and
completed it, and here's what you do.
But I'm still learning and I'm still
growing, and it's okay to still be
in process. Like, it's okay to not
have everything figured out. But for me
personally, I'm focusing right now on the
it's okay to say no and don't
get caught up in how somebody else
is going to feel about it. If

(44:55):
I've prayed about a decision, I know
that God doesn't want me to do
a, b or c. Like, that's okay.
Rest in that. Say the no and
just be okay with, with the response.
Because ultimately, at the end of the
day, like, if God wants you to
do it, he'll say do it. If
he doesn't want you to do it,
don't do it. And however the other
person responses, whatever.

Yeah, because there's, there's always only going
to be 24 hours in the day.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of times
we don't set boundaries on our time,
and so we ended up saying yes
to all kinds of things, and then
we're sacrificing something in order for that.
And that's where, for me, that's where
boundaries really come into play because you're
always going to be in a place
where you have to sacrifice something. So
for some, they'll sacrifice sleep. Well, you

(45:36):
sacrifice sleep. And guess what? That has
a very negative effect on your mental
health. Like, there's. There's studies on, you
know, the amount of sleep you're getting
and how that affects just your physical
health, but also your mental health. And
so. So you're. You're overextending. You didn't
set a boundary. So now you've sacrificed
sleep. Okay. That's impacted you negatively. Okay,
so don't sacrifice sleep. I'll sacrifice the

(45:57):
time with my family. Well, that's gonna
lead to some very unhealthy relationships in
your family. And these are the, these
are the struggles that I have where
it's like, okay, I know that, like,
during our life university season, so it's
six weeks, there's courses I've got to
put together, notes I've got to teach
the class. I've got to record the
videos for it. Like, it adds a

(46:17):
lot to my schedule. So something has
to be sacrificed in that time. And
usually what I end up sacrificing is,
like, future plans where it's like, okay,
I can't get ahead on these areas
in this season because if I don't,
then I end up at home at
midnight still writing a class, which has
happened way too many times. Right. Or,
you know, it's family dinner, and instead

(46:39):
of sitting at the table with my
family, I'm off somewhere else. And so,
like, I have to put in boundaries
because I'm going to sacrifice something because
everybody is. And so you shouldn't be
sacrificing your health, your physical health, or
your mental health, and you shouldn't be
sacrificing the most important relationships.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I also think choosing where I'm going
to fail has been a theme throughout
life. Like, okay, it's like, right now
my house is messier than I want
it to be. I'm in a super
busy season right now, but trying to
not beat myself up about it, because
at the end of the day, there
are only 24 hours, and I can
only do so much. And so if
this is where I'm going to fail,

(47:19):
I have to choose to be okay
with. My house is going to be
messy for a week or two. And
it is what it is. It'll get
better. I will get to the place
where I have 2 hours to clean.
But today is not that day, and
it's okay.

Yeah. The analogy I heard one time
that really stuck with me is it's
like a juggler. So, like, life is
juggling. Like, you've always got all these
balls in the air, right? And so
you can choose which ball you're gonna
drop. And you need to, because if
you don't choose which ball to drop,
you drop all the balls, right? They
all come crashing down. Cause, like, you

(47:52):
knew, okay, that one's just going wide.
I'm letting that one fall, or you
end up trying to catch that one
and you drop everything else. And so,
like, I think that's where a lot
of us struggle is choosing, okay, I'm
going to fail at something in this
season because there's 24 hours, and I've
got 26 hours worth of stuff I
need to do. So. So what. What
area am I going to fail at?

(48:12):
And so we have to prioritize that.
Pick. Pick the things that are going
to least impact other things. Right. You
may be in a season where you're
like, man, I would really love to,
you know, go take this pottery class,
you know? Well, maybe that's not the
thing that you need to be doing
right now. Maybe that's the ball you
can drop, you know, but choosing. And
so, for me, I never want to

(48:35):
sacrifice family. So that's. That's the ball
that I'm never willing to drop. And
their names are Jaden, Bennett, Kelsey and
Seoul. And if I drop one of
those, I've messed up too much. I
would. I would rather go to a
Sunday morning and be like, well, church,
I don't have a sermon for you
today, so here, let's just read a

(48:55):
chapter in the Bible and see what
God says. I would rather have that
moment than to look at my kids
and be like, no, I'm sorry, I
don't have time for you today because
this sermon is more important. And so
that I just. That for me personally,
I've just said that that's the ball
I will never drop. And I guess
you could. You probably should say my
relationship with God. Like, I'm never going
to drop that ball either. But I

(49:17):
guess that goes without saying.

Without saying.

Maybe it needs to be said, though.
Don't drop the relationship with God ball
either.

This is true. Like, we discussed earlier
like that. That can help you, especially
when you are busy. That relationship is
when you need to be closer. It's
when you need to be more invested.

So this person, the question was, what
does scripture say about healthy boundaries? And
so I love that you brought up
Sabbath. In addition to that, there's a
verse in ecclesiastes that talks about having.
How's it phrase? It's like having one
handful and peace is better than two

(49:54):
handfuls and turmoil. And for me, that
verse is. It's so powerful, because I
think a lot of us are trying
to get what's better than one of
something. Two of something, right? Like, more
is always better for the american, right.
And so it's like, well, yeah, I've

(50:15):
got this. But, man, God gave me
two hands. I might as well put
the other one to work. And it's
like, no, like, there. There is. There's
a peace that's found when, hey, you've
got enough. Yeah, you don't need to
do this other thing as well. And
I think that that's where, man, this.
I don't know what it is. The
last decade or so, this whole grind
culture, this whole, you know, I don't

(50:37):
know. It's become this whole thing that
it really shouldn't be. Like, we need
to. We need to calm down on
the whole, you know, I'm an entrepreneur,
and I've got three jobs, and I'm
starting two businesses, and I'm writing a
book all at the same time. It's
like, okay, who are you impressing with
that? Because I just look at you
and I go, yeah, you need to
stop. That's too much.

For some people. Maybe that is what
God is calling them to in the
season. But I think for those people,
that's few and far between.

Yeah.

I don't. I don't know. I don't
know everybody's story. I don't know everybody's
journey. I. I think that sometimes. Yeah,
people. Yeah, people can be doing those
things.

Like.

But I think sometimes people aren't in
their sol.

Right. I think you look at somebody
like. Like Craig Groeschel from, like, the
christian world. Like, that dude is. Is
doing stuff, but he's set up his
life in a way that it. It
fits. Like. Like, I heard him talk
about it one time. Like, he doesn't
choose what he eats or when he
eats it. Like, it's all set. So,
like, he just. He literally just, like,
walks in the room and they're like,
here's your salad. And he's like, okay,

(51:38):
thank you. And, like, so, like, food
for him. Like, he doesn't make decisions
on that or thoughts on that. Like,
he has regimented his life in, like,
this extreme way to enable him to
do all of the crazy things that
he's doing right now, but there's a
grace on him to do that. Yeah,
I don't think that exists for the
average person. And I think, you know,
when you're just. You're just hustling because

(52:00):
you're brought up in a culture that's
like, no, I've always got to be
performing. I've always been delivering. And then
we. The comparison trap that we talked
about in the message, like, you're. You're
looking at somebody else on Instagram. And
a lot of times, the problem that
we have is not even just that
we're looking at one person. We're looking
at a bunch of people, and it's
like, oh, but this person just released
a book, so I should be releasing
a book. Well, and this person just

(52:20):
went on vacation, so I should also
go on vacation. Well, and this person
just, you know, started a business, so
I should start a business, too. It's
like, okay, but the guy on vacation
didn't write the book and didn't, you
know, like, you can't compare yourself to
all these people and trying to do
everything that they're. They're doing. But even.
Even if you just pick one person,
you're not. Don't do that. Don't pick

(52:41):
a person you're not supposed to. You're
supposed to live your life for Jesus.
So, yeah, that comparison trap, it leads
to some really unhealthy.

Yes.

Just.

I mean, there are even studies out
there talking about social media use and
mental health and depression and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you. Yeah, social. Social is great.
It has great uses, but, yeah, do
not. Do not start to compare. That's
a dangerous, dangerous slope.

And it's. It's funny because. So, like,
I don't want to harp on. On
social media, because I. Social media absolutely
has.

Oh, yeah, there's a.

There's a benefit. Gospel has been preached
in ways that would have never been
possible before social media. So, like, it
is a good thing, but I feel
like every good thing that is abused
becomes a bad thing. Right? So, like,
sex is a good thing, right? Sex
outside of marriage. When we abuse, we

(53:33):
take what was a good gift from
God. We abuse it. It creates problems.
Alcohol. Right. I don't drink at all,
but I've got friends that are like,
man, I love you. Know, the taste
of this, the thing of that, you
know, it's great. Abuse alcohol.

Right.

And now you're drunk and, like, so,
like, the abuse of something good happens
all the time.

Yeah.

And so we just have to be
really cautious because it does play into
the whole mental health sphere.

Yeah.

All right, Johnny, as somebody that is
in counseling talks about it openly, what
advice do you have for people that
are like, they're in a place right
now, they listen to the sermon. They're
listening to the podcast right now, and
they're going, you know, to what? I
think I have some mental health issues
that I haven't dealt with. What do

(54:20):
you have to say for them?

Find a counselor. Find somebody trusted that
you can talk to regularly. I would
say if you're in a place where
you've been struggling or somebody else notices
that you've been struggling and recommends, hey,
maybe you should go talk to somebody.
Go talk to somebody. You're not going
to be worse off for it. For

(54:43):
me, my counseling journey started. We're over
ten years in at this point. And
so it was very, very, very hard
in the beginning, so to come face
to face with some painful experiences that
I didn't ever want to look at
ever again or think about ever again.
So it's not a, you're gonna walk

(55:03):
into the counselor's office and everything's gonna
be fixed in your life. Right? It's
hard work. It is hard work, work.
But it is so worth it. It
is so worth it to begin to
uncover those things in your life and
to heal in those areas and to
mend and to get better and to
improve. Like, it's a. It's a difficult
journey. It is a. There are. There

(55:25):
will be tears, there will be frustration,
there will be moments of, why am
I even doing this? It's so much
easier to ignore or forget. But it's
worth it. It's worth it to be.
To be a healthier person on the
other side for you, for your family,
for your friends, for the kingdom. It
is. It's so worth. It's so worth
it to get healthier.

Yeah. I want to highlight, you said
you've been on this journey for ten
years with your counselor, and how many
people do you think have gone to
one session and walked away going, well,
this didn't really help anything.

Probably a ton before. I found my
counselor, who I've seen now. Her name
is. Her name is Gillian. She's phenomenal.
I think she was number four for
me. So I had seen three other
counselors prior to her, and they were
not for one reason or another. None
of the other ones were a good
fit. So maybe the first person that
you see and you're just like, hey,
counseling is not for me. Maybe it's

(56:15):
not that counseling is not for you.
I can tell you it's not that
counseling is not for you. It is
that. That was just not a good
person for you. Keep. Keep searching. Keep
looking. There was my third counselor. The
last session that I had with them,
we were talking about, I was in
ministry, and I was doing some things,
and I'd seen her maybe three or

(56:36):
four times. And our last session together
ended with me paying for my hour
long session for her to cry to
me the entire time, talking about how
she thought she was in the wrong
profession and wanted my ministry advice for
her walking through the situation, like, literally,
like, I'm like, I paid for this.

I paid for this.

So, like, not everybody's gonna be the
right fit for you.

I think if you're crying to your
patient about how you don't know if
this is the right field for you,
I think it's an answer to the
question. It's not the right place for
you. That's not where you should be.

Like, literally, like, real life. This happened.

That is wild.

That happened.

So kudos to you for taking that
experience and not going, I'm done. Like,
your third person, and it fails so
miserably. I think the average person would
have been like, counseling is a joke.
It's a scam. It's not working. But
you stuck with it. And the next
person you found, how did you find
Jillian?

I found her through a recommendation from
a friend. So she had been recommended
to me before while I was in
the process of going to the other
ones, but I was. I was caught
up in trying to find somebody my
insurance took and blah, blah, blah, blah,
whatever, so ultimately ended up with her.
And she is. She's a christian based
counselor, and she doesn't take insurance. So,

(57:53):
like, that was my big hang up.
Is like, I don't want to pay
money on this, but honestly, like, it's
worth it. Yeah, it's been worth it
for me.

Okay, I'm curious. So you mentioned something
kind of briefly about other people. May
be noticing the mental. What do you
think are some of, like, the warning
signs for when somebody is like, okay,
we need to get into counseling. You
need to talk with somebody. What are

(58:20):
the warning signs that will tip you
off?

I would say for me, probably. And
this has been a long time now,
so thinking back, it was like my
husband had noticed there were some things
going on with me, like personality changes
and just being more frustrated, more easy
to get upset with the kids and
crying a lot and things like that
that were just. I knew I was

(58:43):
having a hard time, but, like, externally,
somebody else, my husband could see that,
hey, I was really struggling with some
things and probably needed some extra support.
So, like, if you. If you see
somebody in your life who is dealing
with something, like, don't be afraid. Don't.
You don't have to come down on
them, but don't be afraid to speak
up and encourage them to seek. Seek
some support from somebody.

Yeah. I think that conversation starts with,
are you okay?

Yeah.

Like, I care about you, and I've
just noticed, you know, there's a little
bit of a pattern where, like, things
happen, and your emotional response to those
things just seems, like, exaggerated or it
seems inappropriate. I don't know how I
would phrase that necessarily to the person
in the moment, but, yeah, it's just.
It's a place of care. So, like,

(59:27):
if there's somebody in your life that
you're looking at and you're like, hey,
that. That was not a proportional response.
Right. I think that can be a
pretty big red flag. I think, for,
like, me personally, I recognize, like, when
my temper, like, when I'm. When I'm
just man, that short fuse, especially at
home with the kids, because, you know,
I'm a pastor, so I've learned how

(59:48):
to control those things in the public
space. Right. But if, like, I get
home and, like, I come home, like,
one of the kids, like, broke something
or didn't clean something, and my immediate
response is, what's wrong with you? It's
like, oh, Brent's not in a healthy
space right now. And so I think
that all of us, we can recognize
it in ourselves if we take any

(01:00:08):
kind of time to just reflect on,
okay, why did I respond that way?
And, yeah, maybe I was justified, but
was the scale of my response justified?
Because I think that's usually where people
trip up. It's like, okay, yeah, that
person cut you off in traffic. You
had the right to be upset about
it to the level that you went
to off the road.

Joni Bishop (01:00:29):
No, no.

Pastor Brent McQuay (01:00:30):
Like, were you grabbing your tire iron
out of the backseat? Like, that's probably
not a proportional response to somebody making
a mistake. And so, yeah, for me,
it's just kind of looking at those,
you know, how is my response to
situations? And even if it's the right
response, was it the right level of
response? And if it's not, then it's
probably, probably an issue or it's, you

(01:00:51):
know, we talked about rumination in the,
in the message. And that's the one
that I noticed the most in my
own life is when my thoughts are
just constantly. They're just on the wrong
thing. And it's. We talked about this
in the last series, about being like,
jesus, we need to think about what
we think about. And so many times
we just, we're just on default autopilot

(01:01:13):
and we're just kind of going through.
We're not really thinking about it. But
when you take the time to say,
okay, what did I think about last
night? Because I was, I was just
sitting there for a while. Like, what
was I thinking about? Why was I
thinking about that? And usually, for me,
that's, that's a big indication that, okay,
I'm not in a healthy space right
now. I need to talk with somebody.

(01:01:33):
All right. Last two cent. Anything that
you'd add to this conversation, anything we
missed from the message, you had to
listen to me preach it twice. So
you sitting there, you're like, man, Brent
really needs to mention this, or, man,
I'm really glad he said this because
people need to hear it.

I don't think that there's anything that
I would add and this, not to
puff you up in the moment, because
you don't need that. And I don't
want to.

I don't respond well to that anyways.

But as somebody who, these are things
that are very real in my life,
and these are issues that I deal
with regularly. Sitting on the other side
of that issue, being on the receiving
end of. Of that message. Like, I
felt loved, I felt supported. I felt
even honored through that message. And so

(01:02:25):
I would pray that that's the same
experience for others as well, sitting on
the same side as me. So I
feel like the way that things were
communicated were done in love and they
were done in humility. And if you
haven't listened to the message yet, go
listen to the message from this past
Sunday. It was, it was good.

Yeah. My, my heart with it. And
let me just reiterate the, the four
truths that we mentioned. So, number one,
the truth was you're not a bad
Christian because you suffer in this way.
And I think there's too many people
that have walked away from church because
they were given this, like, ultimatum. It's
like you either need to be perfectly
fine mentally or you're not really saved.

(01:03:07):
You're not trusting God. You're not, you
know, he said, you know, cast all
your cares on him. Why are you
still living with anxiety? What's wrong with
you? We've belittled people for this. And
so that's not right. That's not appropriate.
And I showed so many people in
scripture that dealt with this issue, too,
that it's like, I don't know how
you could read your Bible and walk
away thinking that you're not a good

(01:03:28):
Christian for having these problems. The second
truth is that you're not alone. And
I love having you on the show
today to be able to say, hey,
here's a face that deals with this.
You're on a ten year journey. You
know, basically that journey never really ends,
right? You just, you're constantly just getting
healthier. And I think that if you

(01:03:51):
had a chance to sit with ten
year old or not ten year old
Joni, but ten years ago, ten years
ago, joni, there you go. That's how
you say that. You know, you would,
you would be so impressed with yourself
of where you've come and this process,
this journey.

But the fact to even be able
to say out loud, hey, I go
to counseling.

Right? Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, for
anybody listening to this that's dealing with
these issues, you got to know you're
not a bad christian and you're not
alone. There's a lot of people that
are suffering and have suffered in this
area, but have also found healing in
this area. And so that brings us
to the third truth, is that there
is hope. And that's the beauty of

(01:04:28):
the gospel, is that there's always hope.
And I'm a firm believer that there's
hope on this side of eternity. But
even when there isn't, there's hope on
the other side, right? That there's, there's
coming a time when he wipes away
every tear and there's no more crying,
there's no more pain, and there's, there's
a, there's a beauty to that. And
so we live for that moment. And

(01:04:51):
so. But I still believe that a
good God shows up even before eternity
to bring healing. And we've got testimony
after testimony of testimony. And so anytime
we're with God, there's hope. And so
the last thing that, the last truth
was that there's help. And I hope
that everybody received that on Sunday, that
everybody listen to this podcast right now,

(01:05:11):
recognize that there is help in this
area. You're not alone in this. There
is resources out there. There are people
out there that God has equipped for
this purpose. And there are doctors. There
is medication, there is therapy, there is
counseling, and there is a supernatural touch
of God. You know, for some of
us, we just need that touch from

(01:05:33):
God to get us started. Right? Like,
I'm so overwhelmed by the depression, the
anxiety right now, I can't even pick
up the phone to call the counselor.
I can't even. I can't even drive
myself to the hospital right now. Sometimes
we just need God's touch to get
us that starting point, like, to get
us across, to actually do something about
it. And so those are kind of

(01:05:54):
the four truths that I wanted to
throw out there. If we have more
time, I'd love to talk about Johann
Hari wrote a book called lost connections.
I highly recommend that. It talks about,
especially if you're dealing with depression, it
talks about the nine disconnects that lead
to depression. And it's interesting because of
the nine, only two of them are

(01:06:15):
biological in nature. So two of them
require medication. The other seven, you could
actually just reconnect in those areas. So
it's about our disconnection from purpose, our
disconnection from. From people, our disconnect because
of trauma and things. But there's like,
seven of the nine. It's like you
could do something today to get reconnected

(01:06:35):
in this area, and it'll actually bring
a lot of healing. So it's an
incredible book. So lost connections. And then
also recommend the Chris Hodges book, out
of the cave.

Awesome. We'll link both of those in
the show notes.

You got any other recommendations for Biba?

Of course. Of course. I can't think
of literally anything I've ever read. What's
a book? No?

Okay. No worries. All right. And then
always, if you're a member of the
church, especially, we've got our counseling program.
And if you're not a member, so
we do have a separation there, like.
So if you're a member, our counseling
team will actually do your counseling for
free. It is short term. I forget
if it's six weeks or eight weeks.
So they put a. Put a cap

(01:07:18):
on it. And that's just by nature
of the size of the team and
the size of our church. Right. So,
like, there has to be limitations to
it. If you're not a member, they
won't do that counseling for you. But
they have recommendations. They'll send you resources,
they'll send you to the right people.
And if you are needing additional care.
So let's say you're schizophrenic. You know,
our team isn't going to do the
counseling, but we've got facilities, and we've

(01:07:39):
got therapists and doctors that we can
recommend to you. And then our support
groups are open to anybody. You don't
have to be a member. You don't
even have to be a Christian to
go to our support groups. And so
we've got grief share divorce care. They're
starting one on anxiety over the summer.
That's virtual only. And then we. We
partner with another organization for drug addiction

(01:08:02):
recovery. I think that's all of them.
We had divorce care for kids. I
don't know if that's still in operation
or not, but that was a really
important one. But, yeah, you can get
all that information email, counselinglc, tv, and
we can get you hooked up. Cool.

Sounds good.

All right, joanie, thanks for hanging out
for the last hour or so. You
answered some amazing questions.

It was great.

Thank you. I appreciate it all with
only one eye pirate.

It's my pirate day.

She got me an eye patch. Where's
makeup and wardrobe when you need them,
man? Come on. We need to step
this show up, man. All right, well,
thanks for hanging out with us. Just
a reminder, we'll be back for a
very interesting conversation next time as we
tackle politics, abortion, and LGBTQ issues. So

(01:08:50):
bring your popcorn or your pitchforks. It's
gonna be a lot of fun. Hope
to see you there. God bless.

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