March 6, 2024 • 48 mins
Regional journalist and writer Simon McCarthy drops by to talk about anxiety, work, and trying to figure out his different brain.
Simon McCarthy is a journalist working at the Newcastle Herald in NSW. He writes news, features and produces video and multimedia for the Herald and the Weekender magazine, and he contributes regularly to the Newcastle Herald's daily Topics column. He is a photographer, writer, and co-creator of the Toohey's News Podcast. He's also one of the Differently Brained team's oldest friends.
Check out some of the things we mention in this week's episode:
- Simon McCarthy, Newcastle Herald
- The Newcastle Herald's Topics column
- Find Simon on Instagram
- David Foster Wallace 'This is Water' commencement speech
- Elif Batuman on Longform
- Elif Batuman: 'Japan's Rent-a-Family Industry'
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CREDITS
This episode was produced by Lachlan Rutherford and Jacinta Dietrich.
ABOUT DIFFERENTLY BRAINED
Differently Brained shares the opinions of individuals and does not consider your personal circumstances. Differently Brained exists purely for information purposes and should not be relied on as health or medical advice. Because no brain is the same, please consult your healthcare professional for your personal medical needs.
The Differently Brained team acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, edit and stream this podcast. We pay our respects to all First Nations peoples and their Elders part, present and emerging. We extend that respect to all First Nations cultures and their ongoing connection to the lands, waterways and communities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lachlan Rutherford (00:00):
Before we begin, the Differently Brained team acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, edit and stream this podcast. We pay our respects to all First nations peoples and their elders, past, present and emerging. We extend that respect to all First nations cultures and their ongoing connection to the lands, waterways and communities. Now on with the show.
Simon McCarthy (00:36):
I don't know whether this is a show that has a cold open, but I realised about 15 minutes ago that this is the first podcast I've ever been on where I've been a guest, not like one of the showrunners, so I had a full blown panic and I was like, I don't know what kind of show this is. Is this a very serious sit down? And I've listened to the show, by the way. I know in my brain what the show is, but I was like, I don't know what kind of show this is. Is this one of those like sit down and chat shows? Should I make a coffee? Should I get a wine? What do I do with my hands? Where are my hands normally at? So in a moment of multistage thinking, I settled on.
(01:09):
I've made a cup of coffee, but I've also lit a candle.
Lachlan Rutherford (01:14):
That's nice and intimate.
Simon McCarthy (01:15):
Those two things kind of balance each other out. Like it's intimate, but it's also professional.
Lachlan Rutherford (01:23):
Yeah, meditative. I'm all for setting up a candle to make things a little bit more centred. I've talked about it extensively on our podcast before, so good on you. But yes, welcome.
Simon McCarthy (01:38):
Hello, by the way.
Lachlan Rutherford (01:39):
Hi.
Welcome everyone, to another episode of Differently Brained. I'm Lachlan Rutherford and I am filling in for myself and also just into Dietrich today because she's feeling a bit under the weather. But we've got a guest today who you've already heard, speaking at length about his candle habits. And if it isn't obvious already, I know this person quite well. But without further ado, let me introduce this mysterious man. Today we're talking to Simon McCarthy, who is a journalist working at the Newcastle Herald in New South Wales. He writes news, features and produces video and multimedia for the Herald and the Weekender magazine, and he contributes regularly to the Newcastle Herald's daily Topics column and is the co creator and producer of the two ease news podcast, which is why his audio sounds amazing.
(02:36):
Simon has worked as a journalist in regional New South Wales since 2013 and joined the newsroom at the Herald in 2017. From the Northern Daily Leader in Tamworth, Simon spends his weeknights racked with existential dread. When not precariously balancing between caffeine jitters and regret, he enjoys Hunter Chardonnay and long walks on the sunset. And Simon is close personal friends with the creators of the highly successful podcast, and I hope that I'm pronouncing this properly. The highly successful podcast Differently Brained and firmly believes in nepotism for getting ahead in this economy. Simon, thank you so much for joining me today and having a bit of a chat.
Simon McCarthy (03:23):
Okay, I'm going to say two things right off the bat. First of all, I've listened to the show a lot. It's excellent, by the way, and I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for having me on, but I didn't realise that the guest had to sit there and hear their own introduction. Like having you guys read all this stuff.
Lachlan Rutherford (03:40):
How does it feel?
Simon McCarthy (03:41):
Look, I don't know how I feel about it, to be honest, because, well, I'm on my own. I'm in a very nice room at the moment, but I'm on my own and I've got my little candle lit, and it feels quite nice and it's very lovely. I'm having a nice time. But it also feels a little bit like when you read someone else's introduction to them, it kind of feels like you're at a dinner party or something and you just have to sit there while they say nice things. I don't know, what do I just. Thank you. Right? I am a very personable person.
Lachlan Rutherford (04:09):
Yeah. Also, just as a bit of insider knowledge for everyone, the intro that I was given was pieced together from three separate messages that Simon sent to mere moments ago on Facebook.
Simon McCarthy (04:25):
To be fair and to provide a small amount of context there, Jacinda sent me a message and she said, start thinking about your introduction. And my immediate thought was, I don't know if we can swear on this podcast. Can we swear on this podcast?
Lachlan Rutherford (04:35):
Yeah, you fucking do that.
Simon McCarthy (04:36):
My immediate thought was, fuck, I need an introduction. Oh, no.
Lachlan Rutherford (04:43):
Well, Simon, just to allay any fears that anyone might have as to why the hell you're on this podcast, can you at least tell us what your situation is vis a vis mental health, if you don't mind?
Simon McCarthy (04:56):
That is an excellent question. I am probably a walking example of taking way too long to do anything about your mental health. So, I've known Jacinta since were at university together. We've been friends for, God, over a decade now. Jesus.
Lachlan Rutherford (05:12):
13 years.
Simon McCarthy (05:14):
It's 13 years.
Lachlan Rutherford (05:15):
Yeah, man.
Simon McCarthy (05:16):
Grave calls to all of us. And Rutho as well. I know you very well, and we've been friends for the same amount of time. And I think we could probably both agree there was some stuff going on there for quite a while. Yeah. And I always thought I'm just quirky. And it turns out, no. So about 18 months ago, I was actually going to bring it along because I was going to do a very Joan diddian thing and read it to you. But somewhere in my paperwork, I have the letter that my GP gave to me when she diagnosed me with anxiety. G-A-D. And that was sort of the beginning of what is an ongoing. I don't want to say journey.
Lachlan Rutherford (05:59):
Oh, look, everyone says it. I know it's such a gross word, but it's honestly the only word that comes to mind, really.
Simon McCarthy (06:07):
So, yeah, I guess ostensibly anxiety, which, if you haven't been able to tell already in the 3 minutes that we've been on the air, is present. And, look, probably some other stuff, but we're figuring it out as we go.
Lachlan Rutherford (06:24):
How does that anxiety play out for you? Just like the normal way. Panic attack kind of stuff.
Simon McCarthy (06:30):
I mean, kind of. Yeah. I always thought about it as something that was just like the situations that I always found myself in, which is always feeling a little bit out of your depth and a little bit sort of 5 seconds slower than everyone else around you and trying to keep up all the time. And that sort of image of the duck, very calm on top, but, like, the legs are going mad under the water. And I always thought it was always that environmental. You're just in a situation. Oh, it's just that your job's really stressful or it's just that you've never really made friends. Easy kind of thing. It's all that kind of stuff. And then Covid happened. And like the rest of the country, I found myself inside on my own, spending an awful lot of time in my own head.
(07:15):
And I just started to sort of catalogue all of the times that I felt anxious or a little bit off or a little bit sort of stressed or nervous or on the inside, like a quaking kitten. And on the outside trying to go, everything is fine. And I realised it was kind of more often than not. So I thought, okay, maybe there's sort of.
Lachlan Rutherford (07:35):
Would you say that it was the COVID period and you had a pretty rough time during that time?
Simon McCarthy (07:41):
Absolutely.
Lachlan Rutherford (07:42):
Would you say that it was then and sort of everything culminating at that point that led you to seeking a diagnosis?
Simon McCarthy (07:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I could almost pinpoint the day I was living on my own, which I had done for a couple of years. And it wasn't sort of like a loneliness thing. I'd do quite well on my own. But what I found was all of a sudden I was in my apartment in this space that for literally years, I had only ever slept in. I had furniture and all that kind of stuff, but I didn't have a lot of furniture, I didn't have art in the walls, I didn't have hobies in the house or anything like that. It was just this space that I came to when I wasn't doing anything. I live. I live in Newcastle in New South Wales. It's a beautiful regional city. There's always something to do.
(08:34):
And so I spent a lot of time in the city, whether I was at work or thinking about work or I was doing something, but I just found that it wasn't until I was inside and couldn't leave that I realised, oh, God, I actually don't spend a lot of time here in my own head thinking the thoughts and doing all that kind of stuff. So it initially manifested as going a little bit mad online shopping and buying a lot of sort of plush furnishings and all of a sudden taking up an art hobby where I collect art and put it on the walls and I burnt through Covid hobies at a clip and the feeling didn't go away. And so I thought, all right, maybe it's time to sort of look into this.
(09:16):
And I made an appointment with my GP and went and spoke to her for about 45 minutes. And she was lovely the entire time and just sort of the whole time just going like, yes, okay, sure. And making notes, as gps tend to do. And I honestly thought at the end of the conversation she was going to say, look, you've got a very stressful job, or you've got this or you got that and sort of confirm that idea that it was all this environmental influence and it was a lot of that. I wasn't looking after myself, I wasn't exercising as much as I should have, I wasn't sleeping very well. And because I wasn't sleeping very well, I was drinking a lot of coffee. And when I was drinking a lot of coffee, I wasn't sleeping very well. That sort of vicious cycle.
(09:58):
So, yeah, we sort of worked on that initially and things sort of settled a little bit, but there was that still. It's like waking up with, like a knot in your chest. Yeah, it's that thing where it's kind of like, I don't want to go to sleep because if I close my eyes, I just have to be alone in the dark for a moment and that's terrifying. So we talked about that. I did a few sessions with a psychologist and, yeah, here I am now.
Lachlan Rutherford (10:24):
Right. You still see the.
Simon McCarthy (10:26):
No, no. So I was seeing a guy called Alex who was brilliant. And that was during the time that, I think it was the federal government had a. It was kind of like a Covid package. Know, you could access psychology, know, as part of the COVID package. It sort of fell broadly under that banner. You'd think a journalist would know the details, but. Shameful, no, he says, hoping you can't hear him typing and to Google what it was. So, yeah, I went through a series of those sessions and then had a couple of those on the other end. And to be honest, I kind of got to two points. I realised that I felt like were sort of chipping away, kind of at trodden ground. And at the time I felt like I was starting to get a handle on this thing.
(11:19):
The feelings were still there, but I could kind of. They weren't this sort of like big amorphous kind of octopus that lived in the corner that I couldn't get my hands around. I sort of knew what feelings were. I knew what to expect when they happened and I was sort of working my way through it, which is kind of where I am still now. But, yeah, so we got to the end of those sessions. I had a few more. My psychologist moved to another practise, I think, or went sort of independent or something. I remember getting an email from him and he was saying, like, oh, this is my new email. And, yeah, it just kind of peed it out.
Lachlan Rutherford (11:53):
Was that practise not in Newcastle?
Simon McCarthy (11:55):
No, it was. But we used to sort of have these Skype sessions, know, whatever Skype is in a modern age, Google meets or whatever. So, yeah, we would meet online and have these sort of telehealth sessions and they just kind of petered out. I found that I sort of had this handle enough that I could get about and do the business that I needed to do and do the work that I needed to get through. I've just been sort of chipping away at it since then in the game.
Lachlan Rutherford (12:23):
So you said that's where you're at now. Do you still get. I mean, obviously everyone gets anxious at times, but do you still feel as though since that time, there have been moments where you've slipped into that full on anxiety state?
Simon McCarthy (12:38):
Absolutely. I think the difference is now, and the thing that I probably wouldn't normally say this unless I was on this show, the thing that I have noticed the biggest change in the way that I sort of feel when these kind of things happen now since getting the diagnosis and going through that process and taking some medicine, which is good for you. The thing that I've noticed since then is when those sort of particularly anxious moments do happen, it's not that you don't feel them, but you kind of know what they are. And I don't have that feeling that I had before where it was kind of like, oh, I don't know why I'm binge watching community and kind of crying when Donald Glover leaves. I know why I'm doing that now.
(13:21):
And it's kind of like, oh, that's right, this is going to be a way that you feel for a while. And then I've actually never got to ask someone about this before. I'd be interested to kind of ask you when you feel yourself slipping into that. I find that thing really helpful because I can sort of step out of myself and look at it as if look at it from a third person point of view and go, oh, I can figure this out and I know where it begins, I know where it ends. I know the sort of messy bit in the middle where things are a little bit shaky, but I know where the end is.
Lachlan Rutherford (13:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I do that and I think it becomes a little bit easier to do the more times it happens, for obvious reasons.
Simon McCarthy (14:02):
But you kind of like analyse it as it's happening.
Lachlan Rutherford (14:05):
Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (14:06):
I don't know why that's helpful, but there's something about that you're sort of like dissecting the frog inside your brain kind of thing.
Lachlan Rutherford (14:13):
Yeah, well, I guess that's the basis of CBT, is to look at it from analytical perspective and figure out whether or not the thought is useful. Useful is not the right word, but yeah, as you said, dissect it like a frog. You're breaking it down into its base components and figuring out, is this true? Is this me?
Simon McCarthy (14:38):
I guess if you know something, it's not as sort of frightening as if you don't know. Like if a horror movie was shot with perfect Wes Anderson lighting, it wouldn't be as scary.
Lachlan Rutherford (14:50):
I don't know. I reckon that would be bloody terrifying because you go in expecting a Wes Anderson movie and then all of a sudden bloody. I don't know who's one of his regulars is Jason Schwartzman, comes around the corner bearing an axe.
Simon McCarthy (15:05):
It's funny you said it's probably a bad example because my girlfriend and I, Lou, we've been watching Wes Anderson's adaptations of Roald Dahl on Netflix.
Lachlan Rutherford (15:14):
Oh, yeah.
Simon McCarthy (15:15):
Little short films. And we watched the wonderful Life of Henry Sugar, which I'm 100% saying that title wrong. And then we watched poison and we thought, oh, yeah, this is going to be like quirky Wes Anderson funny flick. And then we watched the rat catcher and we're just consumed by fear. Because if you've watched it, there's a very particular point. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but there's a very particular point in that short film where it takes a turn and then we watch the swan. And I don't know how Lou felt about that one. We didn't really talk about it, but I watched that and I was sort of in between intense sorrow and kind of horror at the humanness of. This is a bit real. This is a bit too real. Can we go back to the foxes?
(16:09):
But, yeah, I've let us down a tangent. Sorry.
Lachlan Rutherford (16:12):
No, that's good. That's fine. This is what the show is about.
Simon McCarthy (16:14):
I think, to get us back on topic, it's being able to analyse the feeling as it's happening and pick it apart the way that I would with a story that I'm working on and kind of turn it into a story, even break it down into its constituent parts and then put it back together in a way that makes sense. The feeling then doesn't feel so overwhelming and sort of foreign with all of these twists and turns in it. It sort of feels like, oh, okay, I know what the next beat is going to be, and I know why it's going to be the next beat.
Lachlan Rutherford (16:45):
Yeah. In pulling back the veil and seeing the code, so to speak, of the way that you react to certain situations and see, like, a logical step by step process by which you go through all of the different emotions and thoughts and stuff and can see the thing coming from maybe not a mile away, but you can see it coming around the corner. Would you say that allows you to be a little bit more relaxed and I guess go with the flow of how things just kind of play out as they do? You know what I mean? When you get anxious, do you just kind of like, oh, okay, here, it's anxiety time. I'm just going to ride with it until it's done and then I'll be good.
Simon McCarthy (17:30):
And I think what it does is it necessarily reduces the horrible bit, because suddenly the horrible bit doesn't come with all of the sort of uncertainty and upset feelings of, like, I don't know what this feeling is. I don't know why I'm feeling it? Why am I like, why is everyone else just being able to get around and buy groceries and I'm not? Why is this happening? I don't understand. It sort of removes all of that baggage. And the horrible bit is still pretty horrible, but it's less of riding sort of six roller coasters at once and more just, okay, I just need to get through this one.
Lachlan Rutherford (18:08):
And you can see the horrible bit as a temporary thing.
Simon McCarthy (18:14):
That old adage, this too shall pass, and et cetera. You're sort of like, okay, I know what this is. I know why I'm feeling this way. It's not very nice. It's helped me better understand my friends and my family even. Because when you understand that your brain is kind of a puzzle that you haven't quite figured out, and you're just sort of sitting there trying to put it all together and do all that kind of stuff, you suddenly become sort of more aware that everyone else isn't sort of getting around the grocery store with complete ease.
Lachlan Rutherford (18:49):
Absolutely.
Simon McCarthy (18:50):
And you can kind of appreciate a little bit better that everyone's brain is a puzzle that everyone just hasn't quite figured out yet. And that's kind of the work.
Lachlan Rutherford (19:00):
What a beautiful sentiment, Simon. You should write for a living because that was gorgeous. No, but seriously, that's a really lovely thing. And probably going to be the episode, the title of this episode. We'll see.
Simon McCarthy (19:18):
I think that's it. Right? One of the things that my work has taught me, and I love my job. I love my job to bits. I could talk to all day about the interesting people that you get to talk to and all that kind of stuff. I'm one of those sort of horrible people who make dinner parties very boring because you're just like, no, I really actually love my job. And let me tell you more about it. But one of the things, like, the first thing that it sort of taught me and the thing that then it just keeps reinforcing every time I pick up the phone or every time you go out and meet someone, is people. Everyone is just really complicated in really amazing ways. And everybody's got something that they're trying to work on.
(20:00):
And I think it's a very eye opening experience to be able to see that in other people. And it helps you understand yourself, and it helps you sort of understand, okay. It's all right that I don't have everything figured out, but it's still important that I try to. You know what I mean? Yeah, it sort of lands that responsibility on your shoulders to say, no, you have to work at this. You can't just sort of throw your hands up and say, oh, I'm a bit complicated, and everybody just has to deal with it, because that's not fair. It makes you want to keep chipping away at the puzzle in your head and keep trying to solve the Rubik's cube.
(20:38):
But it also makes you appreciate that when you're walking down the street, if someone's having a bad day, or if someone's not quite feeling that the way that they feel like they want today, or like you have a thousand times, when you walk down the street and think, oh, God, I just don't want to talk to anybody or see anybody or do anything, you suddenly have a great sort of appreciation that sometimes everybody might feel like that. And I'm not saying walk out and just start hugging people in the street, but be kind, just simple awareness, you.
Lachlan Rutherford (21:06):
Know, that David Foster Wallace speech, this is water speech. I probably harped on to you about it before. That sentiment reminds me of that a yeah, but yeah, I actually have a question on that, but I'll come back to that question after we've had a quick commercial break because we have those on this programme.
Simon McCarthy (21:25):
Oh, I love these.
Lachlan Rutherford (21:26):
Yes. And we'll be back in just a second with more questions for Simon McCarthy.
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(22:23):
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Lachlan Rutherford (22:53):
Welcome back from our commercial break. And as you already know, because I'm hoping you haven't clicked or swiped or whatever. Away from this podcast, we are talking to Simon McCarthy, journalist, confidant, absolute champion. And before we took the break, were talking about how being able to do the work that you're in as a journalist has allowed you to essentially open yourself up to various different narratives that could be possible that other people are having and allows you to be more empathetic. And I believe that having a general sense of empathy is a really good way to deflect or beat back against some of the negative thoughts that people have.
(23:38):
Like, for example, one thing that people say that practitioners might say to someone who's depressed is, what would you say to one of your friends if they were feeling the way that you know, your mileage may vary with that approach. I'm wondering, Simon, what techniques other than that and just kind of living in the moment and letting things pass. Did you pick up from your time in counselling?
Simon McCarthy (24:06):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think the thing is, nobody wants to walk out and be like, yes, I, Simon, an empath. Feel the following.
Lachlan Rutherford (24:16):
Yeah, don't say that. If anyone listening to this declares themselves an empath after listening to this episode, just cheque yourself.
Simon McCarthy (24:32):
There's one technique that my psychologist gave me. He was really great. He had this great technique that he'd do with me where we wouldn't sort of necessarily unpack a huge amount in the session, but he'd sort of like breadcrumb me into figuring it out on my own, which I'm explaining it terribly because I make it sound like he wasn't helping at all, but he definitely was. And he just kind of like clicked onto that bit in your brain that sort of wants to chew at an idea and dig and figure it out kind of thing.
(25:04):
So he'd do a lot of things where I'd sort of talk to him about something that was bothering me or something that was on my mind, and he'd say, oh, it actually makes me think about this particular article that I was reading the other day, and by this psychologist, go and look that up and read it and we'll talk about it next session kind of thing. And I go, oh, yes, homework. I look back on it now and I realised that this poor man was just. He just had to sit there the whole time while I sat there going, teacher didn't we have homework.
(25:37):
But one thing that he told me, which sticks with me a lot, and I find myself going back to this analogy all the time, because were talking about the way that you perceive yourself and the way that others perceive you and what you see and what other people sort of see. And he was trying to sort of get across the idea that just because my brain goes over and over a thing constantly and picks it apart and replays conversations in my head or something like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that anybody else is doing the same thing. And he used this analogy of, like, a barbershop. He said, when you're sitting in a barbershop, and he said, you're looking in the mirror straight ahead of you.
(26:16):
And he said, you're looking at what the barber is doing, and you're picking apart everything, and you're sort of thinking, oh, is it a little bit too short? Is that not quite right? What's anyone going to think? What have I think about this? And your brain is kind of going over and over just by sort of physics. The person sitting in the chair next to you doesn't have the same view. They literally don't have the same view. They see a different part of your head. And I don't know why that image sort of stuck with me, but it's really particularly when I sort of find myself getting into those loops of looking back on something that I've just done and thinking, oh, God, they must think I'm such an idiot. Oh, God, I flubbed that question in that interview.
(26:58):
God, they must think I'm such an idiot. They must think I'm so terrible at my job. God, why am I even doing this? I don't know. Who ever thought it was a good idea to me, this job? What were they thinking? Or that I went through a stage where if I wrote a story, I would have a full blown panic attack the night before it came out. And I would just be, like, sitting in my house or sitting in the kitchen or sitting in my room or something like that, just anxiously reading and rereading and rereading the story on the page that I knew was already rolling off the printers. And so there was nothing that I could do about it, even if I did find anything.
(27:33):
But, like, just constantly dissecting every sentence that I'd written and trying to figure out, is there any way that this could have been taken out of context? Did I get this right? Did I get this right? And going back over interviews and going back over transcripts and things like that. And it was that sort of analogy of the barbershop that helped me get a handle on that. I still panic, but you sort of get a handle on it and you sort of think, okay, I have a responsibility to get everything right, and I take that responsibility very seriously. But there is an element of this where people will ultimately come to their own conclusions about what you've written down.
(28:10):
And if you're as clear as you possibly can be, and if you've checked all your boxes and you've done your due diligence and you've set out with good intent and all that kind of stuff, like all of those things that you have to do, then people will ultimately come to the conclusion that you want them to. But there's an element there where you kind of have to take your claws out of it and let the thing go. And that is kind of true of a lot of stuff. It's not just that sort of creative process of, okay, dear writer. Pet, pet. Let it go off to the editor now and let them do their bit. The same thing with.
(28:43):
If you have a disagreement with your partner or something like that, you can talk it out and you can figure it out, and they probably won't hate you forever for disagreeing with them, and you probably will talk again in the morning if you've done conflict well, and you'll probably talk about it in a really healthy way, and that will be fine. And then life goes on kind of thing. Like, you are allowed to take your claws out of that moment and stop replaying it constantly in your head so that you can't sleep, because the person sitting next to you in the barber seat has, by the mere fact that they're there, a very different view of your head than you do.
Lachlan Rutherford (29:20):
It's very in the moment that's happening. It's sometimes not as easy to just take your claws out of the thing, though, if you're obsessing over it. I don't want to psychoanalyse you because that's not my job, but it sounds like.
Simon McCarthy (29:37):
What do you mean? You don't give medical advice?
Lachlan Rutherford (29:40):
No. Have you even listened to the show all the way to the end? It sounds like, as well as the generalised anxiety that you have some impostor syndrome, fun things going on as well.
Simon McCarthy (29:54):
Oh, yeah. I dread to say it because I think everybody has it to some extent. Right.
Lachlan Rutherford (30:01):
Unless you're a narcissist.
Simon McCarthy (30:03):
Yeah. It's kind of like that thing that. Who was it? I think it might have been like a PE teacher or something in high school who said to me once, a body absent of all stress is dead. Because I was talking about like, oh, how do we fix stress? And then she said, well, if you fix it completely, you're dead. So I think in that regard, everybody has a bit of posture syndrome. I think if you're in any kind of creative industry, which I'm probably saying, because all of my friends are creatives, and I've always been in a creative industry, but I think if you're in any kind of creative industry, there's an element of that work where you are constantly putting a little bit of yourself up in front of people.
(30:46):
And the necessary sort of transaction of that is all of those people get to have an opinion on that little bit of you that you put up, kind of thing. And sometimes those opinions are good, and sometimes those opinions are really helpful. And sometimes.
Lachlan Rutherford (31:02):
It'S an absolute fucking cosmic joke that people who are creatives are required to be vulnerable. They have to exhibit vulnerability and are also some of the most anxious people in the world. Isn't that a fucking joke?
Simon McCarthy (31:23):
It's almost certainly true of any industry, really, because, I mean, if you really care about what you do, or if you really care about the thing that you make, then it's inevitable that it will become a part of the way that you think of yourself and feel about the way that you are, and it helps you figure out who you are in your head. You know what I mean? So I don't think vulnerability is necessarily sort of exclusive to creative people. I think we definitely feel it.
Lachlan Rutherford (31:53):
I think we deal with it a lot worse than other people.
Simon McCarthy (31:57):
But maybe it's just that we don't deal with it well. That's sort of the defining part of the industry. Everybody feels vulnerable in their work. It's just creatives don't handle it well.
Lachlan Rutherford (32:09):
Yeah, exactly. And then they make really beautiful arts from their anguish.
Simon McCarthy (32:18):
But I also think it's somewhat of a fallacy that creatives have to feel bad about themselves. I don't think you have to be miserable to make good art.
Lachlan Rutherford (32:27):
Absolutely.
Simon McCarthy (32:28):
I think you just have to really care about what you're doing, and you have to be willing to work at it. And I think really caring about what you're doing and also knowing that you're not perfect at the thing that you do, because that inevitably gives you that drive to keep working at it. Right. Because you're sort of sitting there going like, oh, yeah, no, I know what to fix next time I can tinker with this. I can add a panel on here kind of thing. Really caring about what you're doing, realising that you're not and probably never going to be perfect at it, but you want to keep trying anyway. I think everybody has that impostor syndrome. It's just sort of how much it takes over your brain and how well you deal with it when it happens.
Lachlan Rutherford (33:08):
Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (33:09):
I genuinely can't remember if I've answered your question.
Lachlan Rutherford (33:12):
It doesn't matter. I think you did. No, you did. I think, actually, as well, I slammed two questions, or at the very least an exposition into a question that didn't actually match. And I was, like, trying to segue into. I don't know, doesn't matter.
Simon McCarthy (33:33):
So I've caught myself doing this interviews now and I don't know when I started doing it, but I go back through and I cheque my notes and listen to the transcript and go through and listen to the tape and read the notes that I've made and I've caught myself doing this thing in most interviews now where I will just detour in the middle and talk about something that happened in my day and this poor person on the other end of the phone just has to sit there. Why? Which may or may not have any relevance to what we're talking about, but it feels like the right thing to say at the time.
Lachlan Rutherford (34:10):
Yeah, look, I think from the end of someone who is doing the interview, whenever we get people on, such as yourself and others who have done that, I find it delightful because, I don't know, extra content that is maybe not even adjacent to what we're talking about can be a nice little reprieve and it's good. So it's fine.
Simon McCarthy (34:36):
This is what I found is it's about one in two, I'd say, where I'll go one of these tangents and the person the other end of the conversation will have something really insightful and really interesting and really impactful to say. And then it's this brilliant part of the story, or it's just this brilliant thing that I get to carry away and like, oh, that was actually really good advice. I'm really glad I spoke to that person. Or it's about one in three, one in four, where I've just gone on a complete tangent and at the end of it they sort of go, yeah, no, that's interesting.
Lachlan Rutherford (35:19):
Anyway, won't be asking that question again. I have. I do have another question. I've got a couple more. Do you think that you'd ever at this stage in your life? And I know this is kind of like, this is such a sort of left of field, hypothetical question that no one can really answer. However, I'm going to ask you anyway, would you ever consider going back to getting therapy at this stage in your life? Do you think it's something that you would ever consider doing?
Simon McCarthy (35:53):
It's funny that you say that, because it's something that Lou and I have been talking about a bit recently. I don't think it's any surprise that we're living through complicated times, I guess. And I am by no means like a hard hitting, exclusive, breaking news agenda commandeering journalist by any stretch of the imagination. I love what I do and I like what I do, but there's people whose job that is, and they're very good at it and all power to them. I really want to be them when I grow up, but at the moment, I'm just a little guy.
Lachlan Rutherford (36:28):
Simon's eight foot tall, by the way.
Simon McCarthy (36:37):
But there's something about sort of being part of the daily news cycle and a lot of people being at the mercy of a complicated economy that sometimes feels like it's not always working in the way that you want for the people that you want it to work for. And you're sort of very aware of one, how sort of privileged you are to be in the position that you're in, but also knowing that there's a bunch of people out there who are sort of really at the mercy of what feels like sort of big, overwhelming forces and you know that they're out there because you feel it too, kind of thing.
(37:16):
And, yeah, that's something that Lou and I have been talking about a little bit recently, and there's been sort of some ups and downs and some things that we've sort of both found lately. We're sort of saying to each other, okay, maybe it's time to think about getting some help, or maybe it's time to sort of explore this other thing that's kind of been biting at the back of our heads for a while. And, yeah, work's never done, I guess, is probably the short answer of that. Absolutely. I have thought about it quite sort of seriously recently, actually.
Lachlan Rutherford (37:49):
That's good. I mean, as you would know from listening to every single one of our episodes, which you have, Simon, you've listened to every single one of our episodes, haven't you?
Simon McCarthy (37:59):
Some of them twice.
Lachlan Rutherford (38:01):
We are very pro getting help in whatever form that might be on Differently Brained. It's always good to hear someone kind of say that as well, that they're even looking into it or open to the idea, it just helps.
Simon McCarthy (38:17):
Right. Obviously, the elephant in the room is that psychology services and psychiatry services are almost prohibitively expensive to access. And the opportunity to bulk Bill is getting smaller and smaller to see a GP, unfortunately. And there's a lot of people who feel sort of locked out of being able to access this kind of stuff, and there's no simple answers to these kinds of things. It's just complicated from every angle, unfortunately. But, yeah, I think if you're able to access that help, and obviously, everyone should be able to access that help when they need it, but if you are able to access that help, I think the biggest takeaway, at least for me, was it's just another perspective. It's someone else, it's some other third party observer who can sort of look at the situation and go, oh, maybe that's the answer.
(39:12):
Or go and read this article and we'll talk about it next week. Oh, yes, right. I'll go and do that.
Lachlan Rutherford (39:18):
Is that your psychologist voice?
Simon McCarthy (39:24):
You would be mortified if you thought I was doing it in both ways. Rightly so.
Lachlan Rutherford (39:33):
I have got a final question for you, Simon, and this is a question that is always one that pops up every now and again on our episodes. I'm going to word it slightly differently, though.
Simon McCarthy (39:44):
Okay.
Lachlan Rutherford (39:45):
Have there been any representations of people with anxiety or just any characters where you're just like, yeah, I feel seen. This is exactly me. And I get that within every fibre of my being, characters or not. I mean, characters is one facet, but it could be some fucking journal that you read, or even an interview that you might have done in your job. I don't know, take the stage.
Simon McCarthy (40:10):
I mean, it's almost constant that we'll be sitting at home of a weeknight watching tv or watching a movie or something like that, and someone like, oh, that's you. And that's kind of like a fun game that we play. Would you believe that? None of them are coming to mind immediately, and I'm going to kick myself after. But there is actually one person who I constantly go back to, and that is Elif Bartuman. Is. Writes for the New Yorker sometimes. And she did singularly my favourite interview of all time. It was amazing. It was perfect, it was brilliant. I go back and listen to it all the time. It was on a podcast called Long form. She came on to talk about her book, which is called the idiot.
(40:57):
And she was also talking about this article that she'd just written for the magazine a few years ago now about travelling to Japan and finding this industry where you could rent family members, basically rent actors who would pretend to be part of your family. And the idea was that if you were in a situation where you were getting married, for example, and you didn't talk to this particular aunt or uncle, but it was very important that your aunt or uncle be at your wedding for whatever reason, then you could ring up the service and say, I need an uncle for like 4 hours tomorrow. And they would show up and they'd do the job.
(41:35):
And just listening to Elif talk about that experience and talk about her process, and talk about the way that she writes, she is such an intelligent and thoughtful person, but at the same time she gives off this sort of energy of just constantly thinking about what she's just said and constantly taking it apart and putting it back together and just like an endless kind of curiosity about the way that people are and that kind of thing. I don't see myself in her. I just want to make that very clear because she's brilliant and I'm, hey.
Lachlan Rutherford (42:14):
Now, none of that.
Simon McCarthy (42:17):
When I grow up, I would like to be Elif Batuman, I think is the answer to that. A and like, her writing is beautiful. I went away and bought and read her book because I heard her on that podcast. And yeah, I go back and reread it all the time because it's brilliant. It's really good. And I think the bit that I relate to most, I think, is she has an incredible way of balancing two contradictory ideas at the same time, which is that you can be incredibly thoughtful about something and be constantly trying to sort of figure something out. But at the same time you can recognise the kind of inherent silliness in something that you did. Like 15 minutes ago. I thought I was so clever when I did that.
(43:03):
And it was just really nice to hear someone who was that articulate and that clever and that thoughtful and creative, but still doing that, still having that sort of uncertainty about things and stuff like that. So yeah, Ellis, if you hear this, we should go and get coffee or something, because I'd like to talk to you for hours on end and hear your thoughts about stuff.
Lachlan Rutherford (43:27):
Elif, if you hear this, plug our show on long form please. Thank you.
Simon McCarthy (43:33):
Run a mile. I would too. Just talked about me for like 10 minutes on a podcast. I don't know what.
Lachlan Rutherford (43:43):
Well, Simon, first of all, let me ask, do you have any other things you wanted to talk about before we.
Simon McCarthy (43:49):
Before I wrap up there's so many. How are you? How are you doing?
Lachlan Rutherford (43:55):
I'm all right, I'm good. Well, that's just the response you give, isn't it? That's just what you say. I am currently sitting in mum's walk in wardrobe with a Sheet over my head, cross legged, with my feet falling asleep, and that's how I am.
Simon McCarthy (44:16):
Amazing. The life of luxury you lead.
Lachlan Rutherford (44:19):
Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (44:24):
It's lovely to chat with you, buddy. I've missed doing this, actually. I should say, for whoever is listening to this, I mean, if you're still listening, I can only say, I'm sorry, but Lockie and I used to do this at university. Drunk.
Lachlan Rutherford (44:42):
Yeah, there weren't microphones involved, but we would.
Simon McCarthy (44:45):
Yeah, there weren't microphones involved and they were far less articulate, but we used to do this and it was always the highlight of my week when I got to sit down and just chat with you about stuff that's going on and talk about stuff, because this is the mirror. See, you say all the nice stuff about me at the start, and now you just have to sit here and listen to me say nice things about you. You are genuinely one of the nicest people I've ever met. And you're so thoughtful. I would never get tired of talking to you, buddy.
Lachlan Rutherford (45:17):
You're wonderful, mate. Thank you.
Simon McCarthy (45:20):
So there.
Lachlan Rutherford (45:22):
Stop taking over my goddamn podcast. Let me end the show, Simon, we'll probably get you back on at one point or another to chat about. Just chatting about random topics that might be of interest. If you are.
Simon McCarthy (45:41):
Out of curiosity, do you guys have return guests? How many times have you had the one guest on who's my competition?
Lachlan Rutherford (45:49):
We've had K Kerr twice. We've had Jordan. Still John twice.
Simon McCarthy (45:53):
Oh, I loved his episodes. He was good.
Lachlan Rutherford (45:57):
Yeah, he's super fun.
Simon McCarthy (45:59):
I really enjoyed Jordan's episodes. I go back and listen to them sometimes because he's a very funny guy, but he's also very articulate.
Lachlan Rutherford (46:06):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (46:08):
He's a very cool dude. I like him a lot.
Lachlan Rutherford (46:10):
But, yeah, if you come on for three episodes, then you're already ahead of everyone.
Simon McCarthy (46:16):
Oh, I mean, book me in now. Do you want to do another one?
Lachlan Rutherford (46:19):
Let's do another one right now. But actually, thank you for coming on this episode to begin with and for chatting with me. It's been bloody fantastic. And I know for a fact that a lot of people are going to get a lot of things out of this episode. So good on you. Thanks for coming on, mate. You're bloody legend.
Simon McCarthy (46:42):
Thank you for having me. This is so nice. Thank you for listening to Differently Brained, the podcast. If you would like to hear more about on Apple podcasts and Spotify or wherever you like to listen, I'm just.
Lachlan Rutherford (46:54):
Going to clip that and put it at the very end. Friends, if you want to listen to more of our episodes, obviously do what Simon just said, but also come and join us in our various other spaces, such as our Facebook group, our Instagram. I've made a couple of very fun Instagram things lately that I'm getting used to the medium and I need validation and yeah, just keep in touch and stuff. Jacinta normally does these outros, so I'm a bit out of my depth. I was trying so hard not to laugh.
Simon McCarthy (47:29):
I need validation.
Lachlan Rutherford (47:32):
Yeah. So we'll catch you next time for another stellar episode of Differently Brained. Say goodbye, Simon. Simon. Say goodbye Simon.
Simon McCarthy (47:41):
Bye Simon.
Lachlan Rutherford (47:44):
Goodbye.
Differently Brained shares the opinions of individuals and does not consider your personal circumstances. Differently Brained exists purely for information purposes and should not be relied on as health or medical advice because no brain is the same. Please consult your healthcare professional for your personal medical needs.
Before we begin, the Differently Brained team acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, edit and stream this podcast. We pay our respects to all First nations peoples and their elders, past, present and emerging. We extend that respect to all First nations cultures and their ongoing connection to the lands, waterways and communities. Now on with the show.
Simon McCarthy (00:36):
I don't know whether this is a show that has a cold open, but I realised about 15 minutes ago that this is the first podcast I've ever been on where I've been a guest, not like one of the showrunners, so I had a full blown panic and I was like, I don't know what kind of show this is. Is this a very serious sit down? And I've listened to the show, by the way. I know in my brain what the show is, but I was like, I don't know what kind of show this is. Is this one of those like sit down and chat shows? Should I make a coffee? Should I get a wine? What do I do with my hands? Where are my hands normally at? So in a moment of multistage thinking, I settled on.
(01:09):
I've made a cup of coffee, but I've also lit a candle.
Lachlan Rutherford (01:14):
That's nice and intimate.
Simon McCarthy (01:15):
Those two things kind of balance each other out. Like it's intimate, but it's also professional.
Lachlan Rutherford (01:23):
Yeah, meditative. I'm all for setting up a candle to make things a little bit more centred. I've talked about it extensively on our podcast before, so good on you. But yes, welcome.
Simon McCarthy (01:38):
Hello, by the way.
Lachlan Rutherford (01:39):
Hi.
Welcome everyone, to another episode of Differently Brained. I'm Lachlan Rutherford and I am filling in for myself and also just into Dietrich today because she's feeling a bit under the weather. But we've got a guest today who you've already heard, speaking at length about his candle habits. And if it isn't obvious already, I know this person quite well. But without further ado, let me introduce this mysterious man. Today we're talking to Simon McCarthy, who is a journalist working at the Newcastle Herald in New South Wales. He writes news, features and produces video and multimedia for the Herald and the Weekender magazine, and he contributes regularly to the Newcastle Herald's daily Topics column and is the co creator and producer of the two ease news podcast, which is why his audio sounds amazing.
(02:36):
Simon has worked as a journalist in regional New South Wales since 2013 and joined the newsroom at the Herald in 2017. From the Northern Daily Leader in Tamworth, Simon spends his weeknights racked with existential dread. When not precariously balancing between caffeine jitters and regret, he enjoys Hunter Chardonnay and long walks on the sunset. And Simon is close personal friends with the creators of the highly successful podcast, and I hope that I'm pronouncing this properly. The highly successful podcast Differently Brained and firmly believes in nepotism for getting ahead in this economy. Simon, thank you so much for joining me today and having a bit of a chat.
Simon McCarthy (03:23):
Okay, I'm going to say two things right off the bat. First of all, I've listened to the show a lot. It's excellent, by the way, and I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for having me on, but I didn't realise that the guest had to sit there and hear their own introduction. Like having you guys read all this stuff.
Lachlan Rutherford (03:40):
How does it feel?
Simon McCarthy (03:41):
Look, I don't know how I feel about it, to be honest, because, well, I'm on my own. I'm in a very nice room at the moment, but I'm on my own and I've got my little candle lit, and it feels quite nice and it's very lovely. I'm having a nice time. But it also feels a little bit like when you read someone else's introduction to them, it kind of feels like you're at a dinner party or something and you just have to sit there while they say nice things. I don't know, what do I just. Thank you. Right? I am a very personable person.
Lachlan Rutherford (04:09):
Yeah. Also, just as a bit of insider knowledge for everyone, the intro that I was given was pieced together from three separate messages that Simon sent to mere moments ago on Facebook.
Simon McCarthy (04:25):
To be fair and to provide a small amount of context there, Jacinda sent me a message and she said, start thinking about your introduction. And my immediate thought was, I don't know if we can swear on this podcast. Can we swear on this podcast?
Lachlan Rutherford (04:35):
Yeah, you fucking do that.
Simon McCarthy (04:36):
My immediate thought was, fuck, I need an introduction. Oh, no.
Lachlan Rutherford (04:43):
Well, Simon, just to allay any fears that anyone might have as to why the hell you're on this podcast, can you at least tell us what your situation is vis a vis mental health, if you don't mind?
Simon McCarthy (04:56):
That is an excellent question. I am probably a walking example of taking way too long to do anything about your mental health. So, I've known Jacinta since were at university together. We've been friends for, God, over a decade now. Jesus.
Lachlan Rutherford (05:12):
13 years.
Simon McCarthy (05:14):
It's 13 years.
Lachlan Rutherford (05:15):
Yeah, man.
Simon McCarthy (05:16):
Grave calls to all of us. And Rutho as well. I know you very well, and we've been friends for the same amount of time. And I think we could probably both agree there was some stuff going on there for quite a while. Yeah. And I always thought I'm just quirky. And it turns out, no. So about 18 months ago, I was actually going to bring it along because I was going to do a very Joan diddian thing and read it to you. But somewhere in my paperwork, I have the letter that my GP gave to me when she diagnosed me with anxiety. G-A-D. And that was sort of the beginning of what is an ongoing. I don't want to say journey.
Lachlan Rutherford (05:59):
Oh, look, everyone says it. I know it's such a gross word, but it's honestly the only word that comes to mind, really.
Simon McCarthy (06:07):
So, yeah, I guess ostensibly anxiety, which, if you haven't been able to tell already in the 3 minutes that we've been on the air, is present. And, look, probably some other stuff, but we're figuring it out as we go.
Lachlan Rutherford (06:24):
How does that anxiety play out for you? Just like the normal way. Panic attack kind of stuff.
Simon McCarthy (06:30):
I mean, kind of. Yeah. I always thought about it as something that was just like the situations that I always found myself in, which is always feeling a little bit out of your depth and a little bit sort of 5 seconds slower than everyone else around you and trying to keep up all the time. And that sort of image of the duck, very calm on top, but, like, the legs are going mad under the water. And I always thought it was always that environmental. You're just in a situation. Oh, it's just that your job's really stressful or it's just that you've never really made friends. Easy kind of thing. It's all that kind of stuff. And then Covid happened. And like the rest of the country, I found myself inside on my own, spending an awful lot of time in my own head.
(07:15):
And I just started to sort of catalogue all of the times that I felt anxious or a little bit off or a little bit sort of stressed or nervous or on the inside, like a quaking kitten. And on the outside trying to go, everything is fine. And I realised it was kind of more often than not. So I thought, okay, maybe there's sort of.
Lachlan Rutherford (07:35):
Would you say that it was the COVID period and you had a pretty rough time during that time?
Simon McCarthy (07:41):
Absolutely.
Lachlan Rutherford (07:42):
Would you say that it was then and sort of everything culminating at that point that led you to seeking a diagnosis?
Simon McCarthy (07:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I could almost pinpoint the day I was living on my own, which I had done for a couple of years. And it wasn't sort of like a loneliness thing. I'd do quite well on my own. But what I found was all of a sudden I was in my apartment in this space that for literally years, I had only ever slept in. I had furniture and all that kind of stuff, but I didn't have a lot of furniture, I didn't have art in the walls, I didn't have hobies in the house or anything like that. It was just this space that I came to when I wasn't doing anything. I live. I live in Newcastle in New South Wales. It's a beautiful regional city. There's always something to do.
(08:34):
And so I spent a lot of time in the city, whether I was at work or thinking about work or I was doing something, but I just found that it wasn't until I was inside and couldn't leave that I realised, oh, God, I actually don't spend a lot of time here in my own head thinking the thoughts and doing all that kind of stuff. So it initially manifested as going a little bit mad online shopping and buying a lot of sort of plush furnishings and all of a sudden taking up an art hobby where I collect art and put it on the walls and I burnt through Covid hobies at a clip and the feeling didn't go away. And so I thought, all right, maybe it's time to sort of look into this.
(09:16):
And I made an appointment with my GP and went and spoke to her for about 45 minutes. And she was lovely the entire time and just sort of the whole time just going like, yes, okay, sure. And making notes, as gps tend to do. And I honestly thought at the end of the conversation she was going to say, look, you've got a very stressful job, or you've got this or you got that and sort of confirm that idea that it was all this environmental influence and it was a lot of that. I wasn't looking after myself, I wasn't exercising as much as I should have, I wasn't sleeping very well. And because I wasn't sleeping very well, I was drinking a lot of coffee. And when I was drinking a lot of coffee, I wasn't sleeping very well. That sort of vicious cycle.
(09:58):
So, yeah, we sort of worked on that initially and things sort of settled a little bit, but there was that still. It's like waking up with, like a knot in your chest. Yeah, it's that thing where it's kind of like, I don't want to go to sleep because if I close my eyes, I just have to be alone in the dark for a moment and that's terrifying. So we talked about that. I did a few sessions with a psychologist and, yeah, here I am now.
Lachlan Rutherford (10:24):
Right. You still see the.
Simon McCarthy (10:26):
No, no. So I was seeing a guy called Alex who was brilliant. And that was during the time that, I think it was the federal government had a. It was kind of like a Covid package. Know, you could access psychology, know, as part of the COVID package. It sort of fell broadly under that banner. You'd think a journalist would know the details, but. Shameful, no, he says, hoping you can't hear him typing and to Google what it was. So, yeah, I went through a series of those sessions and then had a couple of those on the other end. And to be honest, I kind of got to two points. I realised that I felt like were sort of chipping away, kind of at trodden ground. And at the time I felt like I was starting to get a handle on this thing.
(11:19):
The feelings were still there, but I could kind of. They weren't this sort of like big amorphous kind of octopus that lived in the corner that I couldn't get my hands around. I sort of knew what feelings were. I knew what to expect when they happened and I was sort of working my way through it, which is kind of where I am still now. But, yeah, so we got to the end of those sessions. I had a few more. My psychologist moved to another practise, I think, or went sort of independent or something. I remember getting an email from him and he was saying, like, oh, this is my new email. And, yeah, it just kind of peed it out.
Lachlan Rutherford (11:53):
Was that practise not in Newcastle?
Simon McCarthy (11:55):
No, it was. But we used to sort of have these Skype sessions, know, whatever Skype is in a modern age, Google meets or whatever. So, yeah, we would meet online and have these sort of telehealth sessions and they just kind of petered out. I found that I sort of had this handle enough that I could get about and do the business that I needed to do and do the work that I needed to get through. I've just been sort of chipping away at it since then in the game.
Lachlan Rutherford (12:23):
So you said that's where you're at now. Do you still get. I mean, obviously everyone gets anxious at times, but do you still feel as though since that time, there have been moments where you've slipped into that full on anxiety state?
Simon McCarthy (12:38):
Absolutely. I think the difference is now, and the thing that I probably wouldn't normally say this unless I was on this show, the thing that I have noticed the biggest change in the way that I sort of feel when these kind of things happen now since getting the diagnosis and going through that process and taking some medicine, which is good for you. The thing that I've noticed since then is when those sort of particularly anxious moments do happen, it's not that you don't feel them, but you kind of know what they are. And I don't have that feeling that I had before where it was kind of like, oh, I don't know why I'm binge watching community and kind of crying when Donald Glover leaves. I know why I'm doing that now.
(13:21):
And it's kind of like, oh, that's right, this is going to be a way that you feel for a while. And then I've actually never got to ask someone about this before. I'd be interested to kind of ask you when you feel yourself slipping into that. I find that thing really helpful because I can sort of step out of myself and look at it as if look at it from a third person point of view and go, oh, I can figure this out and I know where it begins, I know where it ends. I know the sort of messy bit in the middle where things are a little bit shaky, but I know where the end is.
Lachlan Rutherford (13:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I do that and I think it becomes a little bit easier to do the more times it happens, for obvious reasons.
Simon McCarthy (14:02):
But you kind of like analyse it as it's happening.
Lachlan Rutherford (14:05):
Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (14:06):
I don't know why that's helpful, but there's something about that you're sort of like dissecting the frog inside your brain kind of thing.
Lachlan Rutherford (14:13):
Yeah, well, I guess that's the basis of CBT, is to look at it from analytical perspective and figure out whether or not the thought is useful. Useful is not the right word, but yeah, as you said, dissect it like a frog. You're breaking it down into its base components and figuring out, is this true? Is this me?
Simon McCarthy (14:38):
I guess if you know something, it's not as sort of frightening as if you don't know. Like if a horror movie was shot with perfect Wes Anderson lighting, it wouldn't be as scary.
Lachlan Rutherford (14:50):
I don't know. I reckon that would be bloody terrifying because you go in expecting a Wes Anderson movie and then all of a sudden bloody. I don't know who's one of his regulars is Jason Schwartzman, comes around the corner bearing an axe.
Simon McCarthy (15:05):
It's funny you said it's probably a bad example because my girlfriend and I, Lou, we've been watching Wes Anderson's adaptations of Roald Dahl on Netflix.
Lachlan Rutherford (15:14):
Oh, yeah.
Simon McCarthy (15:15):
Little short films. And we watched the wonderful Life of Henry Sugar, which I'm 100% saying that title wrong. And then we watched poison and we thought, oh, yeah, this is going to be like quirky Wes Anderson funny flick. And then we watched the rat catcher and we're just consumed by fear. Because if you've watched it, there's a very particular point. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but there's a very particular point in that short film where it takes a turn and then we watch the swan. And I don't know how Lou felt about that one. We didn't really talk about it, but I watched that and I was sort of in between intense sorrow and kind of horror at the humanness of. This is a bit real. This is a bit too real. Can we go back to the foxes?
(16:09):
But, yeah, I've let us down a tangent. Sorry.
Lachlan Rutherford (16:12):
No, that's good. That's fine. This is what the show is about.
Simon McCarthy (16:14):
I think, to get us back on topic, it's being able to analyse the feeling as it's happening and pick it apart the way that I would with a story that I'm working on and kind of turn it into a story, even break it down into its constituent parts and then put it back together in a way that makes sense. The feeling then doesn't feel so overwhelming and sort of foreign with all of these twists and turns in it. It sort of feels like, oh, okay, I know what the next beat is going to be, and I know why it's going to be the next beat.
Lachlan Rutherford (16:45):
Yeah. In pulling back the veil and seeing the code, so to speak, of the way that you react to certain situations and see, like, a logical step by step process by which you go through all of the different emotions and thoughts and stuff and can see the thing coming from maybe not a mile away, but you can see it coming around the corner. Would you say that allows you to be a little bit more relaxed and I guess go with the flow of how things just kind of play out as they do? You know what I mean? When you get anxious, do you just kind of like, oh, okay, here, it's anxiety time. I'm just going to ride with it until it's done and then I'll be good.
Simon McCarthy (17:30):
And I think what it does is it necessarily reduces the horrible bit, because suddenly the horrible bit doesn't come with all of the sort of uncertainty and upset feelings of, like, I don't know what this feeling is. I don't know why I'm feeling it? Why am I like, why is everyone else just being able to get around and buy groceries and I'm not? Why is this happening? I don't understand. It sort of removes all of that baggage. And the horrible bit is still pretty horrible, but it's less of riding sort of six roller coasters at once and more just, okay, I just need to get through this one.
Lachlan Rutherford (18:08):
And you can see the horrible bit as a temporary thing.
Simon McCarthy (18:14):
That old adage, this too shall pass, and et cetera. You're sort of like, okay, I know what this is. I know why I'm feeling this way. It's not very nice. It's helped me better understand my friends and my family even. Because when you understand that your brain is kind of a puzzle that you haven't quite figured out, and you're just sort of sitting there trying to put it all together and do all that kind of stuff, you suddenly become sort of more aware that everyone else isn't sort of getting around the grocery store with complete ease.
Lachlan Rutherford (18:49):
Absolutely.
Simon McCarthy (18:50):
And you can kind of appreciate a little bit better that everyone's brain is a puzzle that everyone just hasn't quite figured out yet. And that's kind of the work.
Lachlan Rutherford (19:00):
What a beautiful sentiment, Simon. You should write for a living because that was gorgeous. No, but seriously, that's a really lovely thing. And probably going to be the episode, the title of this episode. We'll see.
Simon McCarthy (19:18):
I think that's it. Right? One of the things that my work has taught me, and I love my job. I love my job to bits. I could talk to all day about the interesting people that you get to talk to and all that kind of stuff. I'm one of those sort of horrible people who make dinner parties very boring because you're just like, no, I really actually love my job. And let me tell you more about it. But one of the things, like, the first thing that it sort of taught me and the thing that then it just keeps reinforcing every time I pick up the phone or every time you go out and meet someone, is people. Everyone is just really complicated in really amazing ways. And everybody's got something that they're trying to work on.
(20:00):
And I think it's a very eye opening experience to be able to see that in other people. And it helps you understand yourself, and it helps you sort of understand, okay. It's all right that I don't have everything figured out, but it's still important that I try to. You know what I mean? Yeah, it sort of lands that responsibility on your shoulders to say, no, you have to work at this. You can't just sort of throw your hands up and say, oh, I'm a bit complicated, and everybody just has to deal with it, because that's not fair. It makes you want to keep chipping away at the puzzle in your head and keep trying to solve the Rubik's cube.
(20:38):
But it also makes you appreciate that when you're walking down the street, if someone's having a bad day, or if someone's not quite feeling that the way that they feel like they want today, or like you have a thousand times, when you walk down the street and think, oh, God, I just don't want to talk to anybody or see anybody or do anything, you suddenly have a great sort of appreciation that sometimes everybody might feel like that. And I'm not saying walk out and just start hugging people in the street, but be kind, just simple awareness, you.
Lachlan Rutherford (21:06):
Know, that David Foster Wallace speech, this is water speech. I probably harped on to you about it before. That sentiment reminds me of that a yeah, but yeah, I actually have a question on that, but I'll come back to that question after we've had a quick commercial break because we have those on this programme.
Simon McCarthy (21:25):
Oh, I love these.
Lachlan Rutherford (21:26):
Yes. And we'll be back in just a second with more questions for Simon McCarthy.
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Lachlan Rutherford (22:53):
Welcome back from our commercial break. And as you already know, because I'm hoping you haven't clicked or swiped or whatever. Away from this podcast, we are talking to Simon McCarthy, journalist, confidant, absolute champion. And before we took the break, were talking about how being able to do the work that you're in as a journalist has allowed you to essentially open yourself up to various different narratives that could be possible that other people are having and allows you to be more empathetic. And I believe that having a general sense of empathy is a really good way to deflect or beat back against some of the negative thoughts that people have.
(23:38):
Like, for example, one thing that people say that practitioners might say to someone who's depressed is, what would you say to one of your friends if they were feeling the way that you know, your mileage may vary with that approach. I'm wondering, Simon, what techniques other than that and just kind of living in the moment and letting things pass. Did you pick up from your time in counselling?
Simon McCarthy (24:06):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think the thing is, nobody wants to walk out and be like, yes, I, Simon, an empath. Feel the following.
Lachlan Rutherford (24:16):
Yeah, don't say that. If anyone listening to this declares themselves an empath after listening to this episode, just cheque yourself.
Simon McCarthy (24:32):
There's one technique that my psychologist gave me. He was really great. He had this great technique that he'd do with me where we wouldn't sort of necessarily unpack a huge amount in the session, but he'd sort of like breadcrumb me into figuring it out on my own, which I'm explaining it terribly because I make it sound like he wasn't helping at all, but he definitely was. And he just kind of like clicked onto that bit in your brain that sort of wants to chew at an idea and dig and figure it out kind of thing.
(25:04):
So he'd do a lot of things where I'd sort of talk to him about something that was bothering me or something that was on my mind, and he'd say, oh, it actually makes me think about this particular article that I was reading the other day, and by this psychologist, go and look that up and read it and we'll talk about it next session kind of thing. And I go, oh, yes, homework. I look back on it now and I realised that this poor man was just. He just had to sit there the whole time while I sat there going, teacher didn't we have homework.
(25:37):
But one thing that he told me, which sticks with me a lot, and I find myself going back to this analogy all the time, because were talking about the way that you perceive yourself and the way that others perceive you and what you see and what other people sort of see. And he was trying to sort of get across the idea that just because my brain goes over and over a thing constantly and picks it apart and replays conversations in my head or something like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that anybody else is doing the same thing. And he used this analogy of, like, a barbershop. He said, when you're sitting in a barbershop, and he said, you're looking in the mirror straight ahead of you.
(26:16):
And he said, you're looking at what the barber is doing, and you're picking apart everything, and you're sort of thinking, oh, is it a little bit too short? Is that not quite right? What's anyone going to think? What have I think about this? And your brain is kind of going over and over just by sort of physics. The person sitting in the chair next to you doesn't have the same view. They literally don't have the same view. They see a different part of your head. And I don't know why that image sort of stuck with me, but it's really particularly when I sort of find myself getting into those loops of looking back on something that I've just done and thinking, oh, God, they must think I'm such an idiot. Oh, God, I flubbed that question in that interview.
(26:58):
God, they must think I'm such an idiot. They must think I'm so terrible at my job. God, why am I even doing this? I don't know. Who ever thought it was a good idea to me, this job? What were they thinking? Or that I went through a stage where if I wrote a story, I would have a full blown panic attack the night before it came out. And I would just be, like, sitting in my house or sitting in the kitchen or sitting in my room or something like that, just anxiously reading and rereading and rereading the story on the page that I knew was already rolling off the printers. And so there was nothing that I could do about it, even if I did find anything.
(27:33):
But, like, just constantly dissecting every sentence that I'd written and trying to figure out, is there any way that this could have been taken out of context? Did I get this right? Did I get this right? And going back over interviews and going back over transcripts and things like that. And it was that sort of analogy of the barbershop that helped me get a handle on that. I still panic, but you sort of get a handle on it and you sort of think, okay, I have a responsibility to get everything right, and I take that responsibility very seriously. But there is an element of this where people will ultimately come to their own conclusions about what you've written down.
(28:10):
And if you're as clear as you possibly can be, and if you've checked all your boxes and you've done your due diligence and you've set out with good intent and all that kind of stuff, like all of those things that you have to do, then people will ultimately come to the conclusion that you want them to. But there's an element there where you kind of have to take your claws out of it and let the thing go. And that is kind of true of a lot of stuff. It's not just that sort of creative process of, okay, dear writer. Pet, pet. Let it go off to the editor now and let them do their bit. The same thing with.
(28:43):
If you have a disagreement with your partner or something like that, you can talk it out and you can figure it out, and they probably won't hate you forever for disagreeing with them, and you probably will talk again in the morning if you've done conflict well, and you'll probably talk about it in a really healthy way, and that will be fine. And then life goes on kind of thing. Like, you are allowed to take your claws out of that moment and stop replaying it constantly in your head so that you can't sleep, because the person sitting next to you in the barber seat has, by the mere fact that they're there, a very different view of your head than you do.
Lachlan Rutherford (29:20):
It's very in the moment that's happening. It's sometimes not as easy to just take your claws out of the thing, though, if you're obsessing over it. I don't want to psychoanalyse you because that's not my job, but it sounds like.
Simon McCarthy (29:37):
What do you mean? You don't give medical advice?
Lachlan Rutherford (29:40):
No. Have you even listened to the show all the way to the end? It sounds like, as well as the generalised anxiety that you have some impostor syndrome, fun things going on as well.
Simon McCarthy (29:54):
Oh, yeah. I dread to say it because I think everybody has it to some extent. Right.
Lachlan Rutherford (30:01):
Unless you're a narcissist.
Simon McCarthy (30:03):
Yeah. It's kind of like that thing that. Who was it? I think it might have been like a PE teacher or something in high school who said to me once, a body absent of all stress is dead. Because I was talking about like, oh, how do we fix stress? And then she said, well, if you fix it completely, you're dead. So I think in that regard, everybody has a bit of posture syndrome. I think if you're in any kind of creative industry, which I'm probably saying, because all of my friends are creatives, and I've always been in a creative industry, but I think if you're in any kind of creative industry, there's an element of that work where you are constantly putting a little bit of yourself up in front of people.
(30:46):
And the necessary sort of transaction of that is all of those people get to have an opinion on that little bit of you that you put up, kind of thing. And sometimes those opinions are good, and sometimes those opinions are really helpful. And sometimes.
Lachlan Rutherford (31:02):
It'S an absolute fucking cosmic joke that people who are creatives are required to be vulnerable. They have to exhibit vulnerability and are also some of the most anxious people in the world. Isn't that a fucking joke?
Simon McCarthy (31:23):
It's almost certainly true of any industry, really, because, I mean, if you really care about what you do, or if you really care about the thing that you make, then it's inevitable that it will become a part of the way that you think of yourself and feel about the way that you are, and it helps you figure out who you are in your head. You know what I mean? So I don't think vulnerability is necessarily sort of exclusive to creative people. I think we definitely feel it.
Lachlan Rutherford (31:53):
I think we deal with it a lot worse than other people.
Simon McCarthy (31:57):
But maybe it's just that we don't deal with it well. That's sort of the defining part of the industry. Everybody feels vulnerable in their work. It's just creatives don't handle it well.
Lachlan Rutherford (32:09):
Yeah, exactly. And then they make really beautiful arts from their anguish.
Simon McCarthy (32:18):
But I also think it's somewhat of a fallacy that creatives have to feel bad about themselves. I don't think you have to be miserable to make good art.
Lachlan Rutherford (32:27):
Absolutely.
Simon McCarthy (32:28):
I think you just have to really care about what you're doing, and you have to be willing to work at it. And I think really caring about what you're doing and also knowing that you're not perfect at the thing that you do, because that inevitably gives you that drive to keep working at it. Right. Because you're sort of sitting there going like, oh, yeah, no, I know what to fix next time I can tinker with this. I can add a panel on here kind of thing. Really caring about what you're doing, realising that you're not and probably never going to be perfect at it, but you want to keep trying anyway. I think everybody has that impostor syndrome. It's just sort of how much it takes over your brain and how well you deal with it when it happens.
Lachlan Rutherford (33:08):
Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (33:09):
I genuinely can't remember if I've answered your question.
Lachlan Rutherford (33:12):
It doesn't matter. I think you did. No, you did. I think, actually, as well, I slammed two questions, or at the very least an exposition into a question that didn't actually match. And I was, like, trying to segue into. I don't know, doesn't matter.
Simon McCarthy (33:33):
So I've caught myself doing this interviews now and I don't know when I started doing it, but I go back through and I cheque my notes and listen to the transcript and go through and listen to the tape and read the notes that I've made and I've caught myself doing this thing in most interviews now where I will just detour in the middle and talk about something that happened in my day and this poor person on the other end of the phone just has to sit there. Why? Which may or may not have any relevance to what we're talking about, but it feels like the right thing to say at the time.
Lachlan Rutherford (34:10):
Yeah, look, I think from the end of someone who is doing the interview, whenever we get people on, such as yourself and others who have done that, I find it delightful because, I don't know, extra content that is maybe not even adjacent to what we're talking about can be a nice little reprieve and it's good. So it's fine.
Simon McCarthy (34:36):
This is what I found is it's about one in two, I'd say, where I'll go one of these tangents and the person the other end of the conversation will have something really insightful and really interesting and really impactful to say. And then it's this brilliant part of the story, or it's just this brilliant thing that I get to carry away and like, oh, that was actually really good advice. I'm really glad I spoke to that person. Or it's about one in three, one in four, where I've just gone on a complete tangent and at the end of it they sort of go, yeah, no, that's interesting.
Lachlan Rutherford (35:19):
Anyway, won't be asking that question again. I have. I do have another question. I've got a couple more. Do you think that you'd ever at this stage in your life? And I know this is kind of like, this is such a sort of left of field, hypothetical question that no one can really answer. However, I'm going to ask you anyway, would you ever consider going back to getting therapy at this stage in your life? Do you think it's something that you would ever consider doing?
Simon McCarthy (35:53):
It's funny that you say that, because it's something that Lou and I have been talking about a bit recently. I don't think it's any surprise that we're living through complicated times, I guess. And I am by no means like a hard hitting, exclusive, breaking news agenda commandeering journalist by any stretch of the imagination. I love what I do and I like what I do, but there's people whose job that is, and they're very good at it and all power to them. I really want to be them when I grow up, but at the moment, I'm just a little guy.
Lachlan Rutherford (36:28):
Simon's eight foot tall, by the way.
Simon McCarthy (36:37):
But there's something about sort of being part of the daily news cycle and a lot of people being at the mercy of a complicated economy that sometimes feels like it's not always working in the way that you want for the people that you want it to work for. And you're sort of very aware of one, how sort of privileged you are to be in the position that you're in, but also knowing that there's a bunch of people out there who are sort of really at the mercy of what feels like sort of big, overwhelming forces and you know that they're out there because you feel it too, kind of thing.
(37:16):
And, yeah, that's something that Lou and I have been talking about a little bit recently, and there's been sort of some ups and downs and some things that we've sort of both found lately. We're sort of saying to each other, okay, maybe it's time to think about getting some help, or maybe it's time to sort of explore this other thing that's kind of been biting at the back of our heads for a while. And, yeah, work's never done, I guess, is probably the short answer of that. Absolutely. I have thought about it quite sort of seriously recently, actually.
Lachlan Rutherford (37:49):
That's good. I mean, as you would know from listening to every single one of our episodes, which you have, Simon, you've listened to every single one of our episodes, haven't you?
Simon McCarthy (37:59):
Some of them twice.
Lachlan Rutherford (38:01):
We are very pro getting help in whatever form that might be on Differently Brained. It's always good to hear someone kind of say that as well, that they're even looking into it or open to the idea, it just helps.
Simon McCarthy (38:17):
Right. Obviously, the elephant in the room is that psychology services and psychiatry services are almost prohibitively expensive to access. And the opportunity to bulk Bill is getting smaller and smaller to see a GP, unfortunately. And there's a lot of people who feel sort of locked out of being able to access this kind of stuff, and there's no simple answers to these kinds of things. It's just complicated from every angle, unfortunately. But, yeah, I think if you're able to access that help, and obviously, everyone should be able to access that help when they need it, but if you are able to access that help, I think the biggest takeaway, at least for me, was it's just another perspective. It's someone else, it's some other third party observer who can sort of look at the situation and go, oh, maybe that's the answer.
(39:12):
Or go and read this article and we'll talk about it next week. Oh, yes, right. I'll go and do that.
Lachlan Rutherford (39:18):
Is that your psychologist voice?
Simon McCarthy (39:24):
You would be mortified if you thought I was doing it in both ways. Rightly so.
Lachlan Rutherford (39:33):
I have got a final question for you, Simon, and this is a question that is always one that pops up every now and again on our episodes. I'm going to word it slightly differently, though.
Simon McCarthy (39:44):
Okay.
Lachlan Rutherford (39:45):
Have there been any representations of people with anxiety or just any characters where you're just like, yeah, I feel seen. This is exactly me. And I get that within every fibre of my being, characters or not. I mean, characters is one facet, but it could be some fucking journal that you read, or even an interview that you might have done in your job. I don't know, take the stage.
Simon McCarthy (40:10):
I mean, it's almost constant that we'll be sitting at home of a weeknight watching tv or watching a movie or something like that, and someone like, oh, that's you. And that's kind of like a fun game that we play. Would you believe that? None of them are coming to mind immediately, and I'm going to kick myself after. But there is actually one person who I constantly go back to, and that is Elif Bartuman. Is. Writes for the New Yorker sometimes. And she did singularly my favourite interview of all time. It was amazing. It was perfect, it was brilliant. I go back and listen to it all the time. It was on a podcast called Long form. She came on to talk about her book, which is called the idiot.
(40:57):
And she was also talking about this article that she'd just written for the magazine a few years ago now about travelling to Japan and finding this industry where you could rent family members, basically rent actors who would pretend to be part of your family. And the idea was that if you were in a situation where you were getting married, for example, and you didn't talk to this particular aunt or uncle, but it was very important that your aunt or uncle be at your wedding for whatever reason, then you could ring up the service and say, I need an uncle for like 4 hours tomorrow. And they would show up and they'd do the job.
(41:35):
And just listening to Elif talk about that experience and talk about her process, and talk about the way that she writes, she is such an intelligent and thoughtful person, but at the same time she gives off this sort of energy of just constantly thinking about what she's just said and constantly taking it apart and putting it back together and just like an endless kind of curiosity about the way that people are and that kind of thing. I don't see myself in her. I just want to make that very clear because she's brilliant and I'm, hey.
Lachlan Rutherford (42:14):
Now, none of that.
Simon McCarthy (42:17):
When I grow up, I would like to be Elif Batuman, I think is the answer to that. A and like, her writing is beautiful. I went away and bought and read her book because I heard her on that podcast. And yeah, I go back and reread it all the time because it's brilliant. It's really good. And I think the bit that I relate to most, I think, is she has an incredible way of balancing two contradictory ideas at the same time, which is that you can be incredibly thoughtful about something and be constantly trying to sort of figure something out. But at the same time you can recognise the kind of inherent silliness in something that you did. Like 15 minutes ago. I thought I was so clever when I did that.
(43:03):
And it was just really nice to hear someone who was that articulate and that clever and that thoughtful and creative, but still doing that, still having that sort of uncertainty about things and stuff like that. So yeah, Ellis, if you hear this, we should go and get coffee or something, because I'd like to talk to you for hours on end and hear your thoughts about stuff.
Lachlan Rutherford (43:27):
Elif, if you hear this, plug our show on long form please. Thank you.
Simon McCarthy (43:33):
Run a mile. I would too. Just talked about me for like 10 minutes on a podcast. I don't know what.
Lachlan Rutherford (43:43):
Well, Simon, first of all, let me ask, do you have any other things you wanted to talk about before we.
Simon McCarthy (43:49):
Before I wrap up there's so many. How are you? How are you doing?
Lachlan Rutherford (43:55):
I'm all right, I'm good. Well, that's just the response you give, isn't it? That's just what you say. I am currently sitting in mum's walk in wardrobe with a Sheet over my head, cross legged, with my feet falling asleep, and that's how I am.
Simon McCarthy (44:16):
Amazing. The life of luxury you lead.
Lachlan Rutherford (44:19):
Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (44:24):
It's lovely to chat with you, buddy. I've missed doing this, actually. I should say, for whoever is listening to this, I mean, if you're still listening, I can only say, I'm sorry, but Lockie and I used to do this at university. Drunk.
Lachlan Rutherford (44:42):
Yeah, there weren't microphones involved, but we would.
Simon McCarthy (44:45):
Yeah, there weren't microphones involved and they were far less articulate, but we used to do this and it was always the highlight of my week when I got to sit down and just chat with you about stuff that's going on and talk about stuff, because this is the mirror. See, you say all the nice stuff about me at the start, and now you just have to sit here and listen to me say nice things about you. You are genuinely one of the nicest people I've ever met. And you're so thoughtful. I would never get tired of talking to you, buddy.
Lachlan Rutherford (45:17):
You're wonderful, mate. Thank you.
Simon McCarthy (45:20):
So there.
Lachlan Rutherford (45:22):
Stop taking over my goddamn podcast. Let me end the show, Simon, we'll probably get you back on at one point or another to chat about. Just chatting about random topics that might be of interest. If you are.
Simon McCarthy (45:41):
Out of curiosity, do you guys have return guests? How many times have you had the one guest on who's my competition?
Lachlan Rutherford (45:49):
We've had K Kerr twice. We've had Jordan. Still John twice.
Simon McCarthy (45:53):
Oh, I loved his episodes. He was good.
Lachlan Rutherford (45:57):
Yeah, he's super fun.
Simon McCarthy (45:59):
I really enjoyed Jordan's episodes. I go back and listen to them sometimes because he's a very funny guy, but he's also very articulate.
Lachlan Rutherford (46:06):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Simon McCarthy (46:08):
He's a very cool dude. I like him a lot.
Lachlan Rutherford (46:10):
But, yeah, if you come on for three episodes, then you're already ahead of everyone.
Simon McCarthy (46:16):
Oh, I mean, book me in now. Do you want to do another one?
Lachlan Rutherford (46:19):
Let's do another one right now. But actually, thank you for coming on this episode to begin with and for chatting with me. It's been bloody fantastic. And I know for a fact that a lot of people are going to get a lot of things out of this episode. So good on you. Thanks for coming on, mate. You're bloody legend.
Simon McCarthy (46:42):
Thank you for having me. This is so nice. Thank you for listening to Differently Brained, the podcast. If you would like to hear more about on Apple podcasts and Spotify or wherever you like to listen, I'm just.
Lachlan Rutherford (46:54):
Going to clip that and put it at the very end. Friends, if you want to listen to more of our episodes, obviously do what Simon just said, but also come and join us in our various other spaces, such as our Facebook group, our Instagram. I've made a couple of very fun Instagram things lately that I'm getting used to the medium and I need validation and yeah, just keep in touch and stuff. Jacinta normally does these outros, so I'm a bit out of my depth. I was trying so hard not to laugh.
Simon McCarthy (47:29):
I need validation.
Lachlan Rutherford (47:32):
Yeah. So we'll catch you next time for another stellar episode of Differently Brained. Say goodbye, Simon. Simon. Say goodbye Simon.
Simon McCarthy (47:41):
Bye Simon.
Lachlan Rutherford (47:44):
Goodbye.
Differently Brained shares the opinions of individuals and does not consider your personal circumstances. Differently Brained exists purely for information purposes and should not be relied on as health or medical advice because no brain is the same. Please consult your healthcare professional for your personal medical needs.
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