The Mind vs. The Brain

Is the mind the same thing as the brain? Does it matter if we think that they are? In this episode we discuss a biblical view of the mind and the brain and how a proper understanding provides a foundation for how to deal with the issues of life.

Episode Transcript

(00:22):
Beep, All right, welcome to anotherepisode here, Faithcast, Ministry of
Faith Baptist, Baptist Church of Isalia.
My name is Eric Northuk and DanCastaneda is with me today and we
are two of the pastors here at FaithBaptist Church and we're going to

(00:44):
discuss something that I think ourlisteners will find very interesting.
We're going to look at the mindversus the brain, in the biblical
view of the mind versus the brain.
The brain.
So this should be interesting.
Right, Dan?

(01:04):
In
theory.
In theory.
Yeah.
I mean, this was, this, we actuallyjust heard this at a biblical
counseling conference, and itwas done, done by Greg Gifford.
And I just felt likeit was very well done.
And really helped clarify mind versusbrain because that's always a challenge.
Yeah, I think in ourculture, we conflate the two.
Yeah, we

(01:25):
do because well, we've talkedabout this when we went over
the history of psychology, thefascinating history of psychology.
And And we saw how we've conflated themankind into, you know, pure materialism.
And that's what happens with youhaving trouble with your mic there?

(01:46):
Yes.
Sorry.
You get it?
Okay.
But we can give you time if you need.
No,
no, no.
I'm done.
Okay.
I've had enough.
No.
Okay.
Back to the discussion at hand here.
Yes, we've conflated it allinto materialistic worldview.
And we do that with the mind.
You really see that.
This becomes very central.
To to many, many things and how wefunction as, as people and an essential

(02:11):
divide between biblical counseling andyou know, hu, human centered counseling.
Yes.
So
because in human centered counseling,it's all one in a sense, your
mind and brain are the same.
Just materialistic.
Yeah.
And, and what's interesting about thatis you'll see, you'll hear a lot of

(02:31):
people talking in ways where in the,in the church where they're not making
a distinction between the immaterialand the material in the way that they
talk, like it has, it isn't, thisisn't just a, a thing that's out there.
Right.
You know that that's happeningis in our church and it is it's
actually quite destructive.

(02:52):
Yes So this I think this is gonna bevery helpful to make this distinction
and hopefully it'll set up thosecategories that are important for
how we are to live as Christians.
So I guess we can start where westarted in, where Gifford started.
By the way, Greg Gifford is the AssociateProfessor the School of Biblical Studies

(03:18):
at Master's University and And he's donequite a bit of work on this particular
issue excellent work I'd have to say.
And he, he, he started in the conferencethat we were at this past week.
And with a man named Clifford Beers who'sknown as the father of mental health.

(03:39):
The father of the mental health movement.
And I was doing a little bitof research on him earlier.
And he was a guy who went into the youknow, psychiatric ward at the, at a time
it was, you know, the turn of the centuryyou know, early 1900s at that time you
went into the psych ward, you were, youlost all, all rights as a human, you

(04:02):
know I mean, you, you were, you werebasically a you know, an experiment.
In some ways, in many ways, andand he, he underwent a lot of
things during that experience.
He was struggling withdepression and, and anxiety.
And so he went in and and, andbasically under, underwent torture,

(04:23):
which was common in that day.
And he came out with the objective of,you know, we've got to change the system.
And and then he he wrote an autobiographycalled A Mind That Found Itself.
And really well intentioned, I'd saytrying to fix this, this mess of the,

(04:44):
of the, you know, so called mentalyou know, if you, mental illness in
the psychiatric world at that time.
But he's the one who coined the,he first coined the phrase, I
think it was in his autobiography,the, the idea of mental hygiene.
Remember Gifford talking about that?
Yeah, that was his.
Yeah.

(05:05):
And and so that's where it started, right?
Mental hygiene.
And that's morphed intowhat we call mental health.
But, so it was a, it was he's kind ofthe, the beginning of this, of this
movement toward, you know, the, themind and the, in the brain being, being
something that, you know, mental hygiene,like you, you can, you know, hygiene is

(05:26):
something you do on your, your, your,your body, you have good hygiene, you
put on deodorant, you clean yourself,you whatever this, this kind of thing.
He, he sort of bringing it into a, amore materialistic and then and then
Gifford also mentioned the conference,White House, White House conference
in June 7, on June 7, 1999, whereHillary Clinton held a conference to

(05:52):
remove the stigma from mental illness.
And to begin treating mental illness,illness as the illness, it is on
a parity with other illnesses.
And so there's this movement to takemental illness and make it just like.
Any other illness, like if you havea mental illness, it's the same as
having, you know, it's a flu on parity.

(06:12):
As a flu or, or some other disease cancer.
So something like that.
Something treatable.
Yeah, something treatable.
Something that you can take,you know, in, in, in, you know,
hopefully find some medications or,or fix something in, in the body,
or more importantly, somethingthat has a biological Right.
You know, what's the word?
Ideology.
Right?
It originates in the body.
Yeah.
The ideology.
Yeah.

(06:33):
So, it's something that has a biologicalorigination or cause, and so and notice,
I mean, even, you know, Hillary isacknowledging that, to this point,
that mental illness is still not seennecessarily is, is by her statement, she's
saying that we're not treating mentalillness as if it's a biologically caused

(06:57):
issue.
It's on parity with other illnesses.
That's what we want todo with it, she says.
Right.
I find that very interesting because, youknow, we live in our world where we're,
it's just kind of assumed, you know, that,that it's, it's on parity with all those.
Other illnesses, but back in 1999, itwasn't assumed this is a very new and

(07:17):
modern way to view mental illness.
Although I think
even in 1999, I think there's stillwanting to, I still think the overall
idea is that this is a bodily issue.
It's organic.
Right.
By then it's fully formed into that.
She's just voicing what.
So yeah, she's bringing it intomainstream, but it was already in

(07:39):
mainstream, but I just, I just findit interesting that that there's this
conference that's, you know, publiclymaking this statement and, and,
so, so even though, even though it'sbeing like taught in schools, which,
which I remember, you know, beingtaught in school a little bit about
psychology and mental illness and.
The idea was that it's, it'sorganic in nature, right?

(08:02):
And so even though that's being taughtand yet there's still some backlash
out there that says, no, this isn't,there's a, she calls it a stigma.
We need to remove the stigma.
Right.
Of mental illness and start treatingit on parity with, with sickness,
disease and other things that can betreated because all it is is organic,

(08:22):
right?
That's basically what they're saying.
That's what, that's what she's saying.
Yeah.
And then at that same conference, Dr.
Stephen Hyman, who at the, atthe time was the director of the
National Institute of Mental Health.
He, he he made a statement and he saidthat we have also learned some very
important facts about these illnessesreferring to mental, mental illness.
And if I can just encapsulate thembriefly, it's that these are real

(08:45):
illnesses of a real organ, the brain.
Just like a coronary artery disease isa disease of a real organ, the heart.
We can make diagnoses andthese diseases are treatable.
So that's very interesting.
Can we actually say that mentalillness, the you know, what

(09:07):
is going on in our mind is...
originates in our brain.
Is it, is a mind the same as the brain?
Well, that's what he's saying here.
That's
what he's saying.
But no, you can't say that.
Right.
Because one is an organ and the otherone is something entirely different.
And, you know, as Gifford pointed out,as we'll point out here, is that there

(09:28):
is a difference, and even biblically,there's a difference between the two.
And the biblical, the biblicalmodel gives room for an organ.
Or what is physically organic aswell as something that is immaterial.
Right.
And it's interesting that he says wecan make diagnosis and these diseases

(09:50):
are treatable and yet there's no cure.
Right.
No one's cured mental illness today.
But they haven't.
No.
And it's because they're tryingto diagnose something that...
Actually isn't treatable,
you know, it is interesting.
I think as we get along inthis discussion, we'll see
why it isn't treatable.
Yes.
But when you, but just by that what,what you're saying there, you, you look

(10:13):
at the cancer treatment has, as it'sprogressed since 1999, when I, when I
was, A young when I was young, if yougot cancer, that was pretty much it.
It.
Yeah.
You, you were, you were done for, youknow, they would throw you in chemo
and hope the chemo didn't kill you.
Yes.
Now I mean cancers will stillstill kill as many people but

(10:36):
they have made such progress.
Yes in treating cancer It's almost routineand what many forms of it is routine.
That's true that they can do they justoh, you've got cancer You need to come in.
We'll take care of this and andjust keep an eye on it for a while
It's very interesting, but you lookat mental illness mental illness
has it seems like it isn't gettingbetter No, it's my treatment.

(10:58):
No, it's the opposite.
It's getting Worse, with all of thisdiscovery and supposedly all of these
people you know, these doctors, thesepsychiatrists, and psychologists
it's worse than it's ever been.
It certainly seems that way.
It seems
that way, yeah.
I mean, you don't, you don'thear people going, Oh, we finally
discovered the medication that'sgoing to cure mental illness.

(11:20):
Right.
Because it doesn't exist.
Right.
And, and, you know, you think of as faras, you know, even diagnosis goes, well,
we just had that article, as I mentionedin our prior podcast on psychology,
you just had that article that cameout last year that totally debunked.
The whole idea of, of brain chemicalissues, you know, serotonin or whatever,

(11:41):
and calling it a myth and sayingit's been a myth from the beginning.
It's
been a myth.
Right.
And I think we'll have to point thatout here as we go through this explain
that a little bit more because we'retalking about the chemical balances,
which is common in our vernacularto talk like you know, I just got
a chemical imbalance in my brain orso sudden such or that or whatever.

(12:01):
Yeah.
You know, we'll, we'lllook at that in a minute.
But I think that what we're saying,I think what we need to make sure
our listeners understand that whatwe're saying here is that the way
man is made up is that there is animmaterial and there is a material.
Yes.

(12:21):
And this is, this is the way man is.
He has an immaterial part,and he has a material part.
And and, and we'll see that theBible speaks very much in both ways.
Mm-hmm.
, and, and this is just sointeresting because the, the,
you know, when you look at the.
The the broad range of, of wordsthat are able, that the writers are

(12:44):
able to pull from to describe whatthey're talking about when it comes
to either the mind or the brain, youknow, or, or the head they were very
careful in the word that they chose.
Yes.
And so like you know, thebiblical use of the mind, that's
a good place to start here.
What is the mind in the scripture?

(13:06):
Well, there's Daniel 6, 14.
Then as soon as the king heard thisword, he was greatly distressed within
himself and set his mind on saving Daniel.
And so you see the use ofthe of the word mind there.
Certainly
not talking about
the Oregon, the brain, right?

(13:26):
It's not just a brain
set.
You don't set your brainto, to, to set someone free.
This is, this is a, this isspeaking of desires, right?
He doesn't want to see Daniel die.
That was the unintended consequenceand he really liked Daniel.
And, and so now he's, he's, he'scontemplating, okay, setting his desire,

(13:50):
setting his, his thinking that's right on.
How can I rescue Daniel?
That's right.
Yeah.
So it's not just, youknow, brain function here.
This is, this is somethingwhere he's completely engaged.
All of his being.
You know, it's an immaterial part of him.

(14:11):
Right?
In Rex's 36.
2, the Lord puts skill in the mind.
of the craftsman.
That's right.
You know, is, is that, you know, when yousee somebody who is a skilled craftsman
do you think, oh wow, his brain isable to do all of those things alone?
There, there's a, there's an, there's,there's something there's an art to it.

(14:34):
Yes.
Right?
That, that, that goes furtherthan just that he's able to you
know, through, through his...
Mechanically.
Mechanically,
whatever.
Yeah.
Right.
Because something's guidingthe mechanism of the arms and
everything moving together.
There's something beyond just thebrain that's guiding the ability to
be able to artistically put thingstogether and not just have them in

(14:55):
a random, half hazard, hazard way.
I kind of like in the ESV, thatverses in Moses Let's see, in Moses
called Bezalel and Oholiab, everycraftsman whose mind the Lord had
put skill, everyone whose heartstirred him to come up to do the work.
Right.
So there you kind of see that mind andheart are actually kind of more like

(15:19):
synonymous terms in that the mind thatthe Lord has put the skill is hearts.
Yeah.
Whose heart stirred himup to come to do the work.
Yeah.
So you're obviously nottalking about an organ.
Yeah.
My heart, my pump, pump, pump, pump,pump stirred me to do the work.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
It's, it's, it's immaterial.

(15:39):
And that's, that's the entire point.
Like mind.
In heart are often in the scripturea reference to the inner man.
Yes.
It's the immaterial man.
It's, you know, the soul.
Yes.
His, his his thinking part of himself.
His affections, his will theBible uses all kinds of words

(16:01):
to describe the inner man.
And in each one of those is referringto the, something immaterial that, that
is, that is working inside that man.
And that will work even after he dies.
Yes.
When his brain dies, thatthinking function, that
inner function doesn't stop.

(16:22):
It doesn't stop.
Yes.
You know, so that, that,the, that's that's pretty
consistent in the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, you see thesame thing in Romans 14, 5, speaking
of of the weaker brother in, in suchthings, he says, let each one or each,
each person be fully convinced inhis own mind so that he's not in sin.

(16:48):
That he's, he's operatingaccording to convictions.
But that conviction is more than just somematerial, you know biological function.
This is, this is aninner, inner conviction.
A certain development of conscienceor of conviction that goes even beyond
like, I know I've experienced this whereI come to convictions because I read

(17:11):
the scripture and and I read in a, ina cross reference and I pull all this
stuff out and I come to these convictionsand then, and I know this is true.
I know it is something deepwithin me knows that this is true.
And then maybe I haven't studied itfor a while and someone will come
and ask me why I believe something.
And I'll be like, well, I don't rememberall the arguments for it, but I know

(17:33):
it's true because there's some kind ofinner fortitude that has developed, inner
conviction that has developed that goesbeyond just my ability to you know, to,
to, it's just, it's just, it's, it's deep.
It's much more than just in an external.
So you, you see that in first Timothysix, five men of depraved mind.

(17:57):
That depravity that runs deepwithin until the mind, the mind
is an inner, is the inner man.
Yes.
It's where he, the seat of of hisaffections and, and his thoughts.
And it's often used interchangeablythat way in the scripture.
Yeah.
You think of
Romans 12, one and two, you know, Ibeseech you, therefore brethren, by the

(18:17):
mercy of God, that you present your bodiesof living sacrifice, holy, acceptable in
the God, which is your reasonable service.
And then he says, Do not be conformedto this world, but blank, be
transformed, be transformed by therenewing of your mind, brain, right?
No, by the renewing of your mind,by the renewing of your thinking.

(18:39):
You know, I think when you, I think it'sinteresting just hearing you say that.
And then, you know, thinkingabout what Gifford had said.
He says in the old Testament,inner man, soul comprehending
mind, affections and will.
They're all, they're all mentioned in, inthe Old Testament and the New Testament.
And it's, it seems like when you'rereading the Bible, it's very distinct.

(19:03):
Like I know when the Bible istalking about a physical body or,
or something happening to somebodyphysically, but we also know from
scripture, what's going on on theinside when the scripture informs us.
And what's going on in their thinkingbecause they're, they're speaking it

(19:25):
or they're saying he thought, you know,and he thought, or something along those
lines where, where we get that idea.
So the scripture is always very clear indelineating what the difference is between
the immaterial man and the material man.
And they don't, they'renot conflated, right?
They're never seen as.
Equal or as being synonymous, right?

(19:49):
The outer man is alwaysdistinct from the inner
man, right?
In the, in the, right.
There's a constant, right?
There's that distinction, you know, secondCorinthians four 16, the outer man or
Matthew 27, 33, the place of the skull.
Yeah.
You know, that, that's very interesting.
Like what we're choosing tonow speak of the, of the, the

(20:09):
housing of the physical brain.
Yes.
Which is, which is housed in aphysical reality, which is distinct
from the inner man, which you can'treally, you know, you can't, you
can't describe it in material ways.
But here we're seeing materialdescribed Matthew 10 30, the
hairs of your head are numbered.
Yes.

(20:30):
There, there's all say thehairs of your mind, right?
Not the hairs of your mind or your brain.
Right, your head.
It's your head.
Yeah.
It's
physical.
It's a physical place that houses your
brain.
And, and the point is that the writers.
Were very purposeful inthe word that they chose.
Whether they wanted to refer tothe inner man or to the outer man.
There is a distinction.
There is a distinction.

(20:51):
And, and, you know, for some of ourlisteners, they may be thinking, Well,
duh, you know, but that's not the waythat our world is, is, is going right now.
No.
They're conflatingeverything into, into one.
Yes.
Into a physical.
So when it comes to the mind,we come to mental illness.
It's all being conflated into aphysical organ called the brain.

(21:15):
That's what they mean by the mind.
Mental illness.
There's something wrong with mybrain, which is why I'm anxious.
There's something wrong with mybrain, which is why I'm depressed.
You know, there's something wrong with mybrain, which is why I worry all the time.
Or whatever it is, they're blaming it onbrain, you know, physical, organic issues.

(21:36):
You've heard this, I've heard this.
You know, someone does something andyou go, you know, why did you do that?
And I say, well, that'sjust the way my brain works.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
That's just the way my brain
works.
You know, it's not your brain.
Right.
There's something immaterialthat is, that is causing you.

(21:56):
To act in a way that you are doing it.
And sometimes I've, I've heard peopleeven, even claim certain diagnoses
of the brain as if it's their littlepet, you know, Oh, that's just my
ADHD acting out, you know that's myODD or my whatever like, like you
own it or something like, like it,you know, it's just purely physical.

(22:18):
It's just the way you are.
And this becomes really dangerous.
It's just so important that weunderstand that there is a dichotomy
between the mind and the brain.
Yes.
Mind being the inner man, thebrain being the outer man.
Yes.
The immaterial person is the sourceof our thinking and our desires.
Yes.
That, that's where it comes from, not the

(22:39):
brain.
That's right.
So let me add, let me just ask you this.
Can the, can the.
Outer man, the brain, if you wantto call it that, the outer man
issues, can that affect inner manor inner man affect outer man?
Well, it's, I think you're, you'reprimarily going to have inner man

(22:59):
affecting outer man, but you can, youcan have heat, you know, in your life.
You know, causing you to, causingyou to respond inappropriately
through complaining.
Isn't that what complaining is?
So you get an outer man effectgoing on that is causing you,
but, but ultimately like the realproblem is an inner man problem.

(23:22):
Right.
So you can remove the heat.
You know, the, the issues of your life andyou're still going to have a problem in
there where, where you're that tendencyto complain when things don't go your way.
That's, that's an inner man problem andthat's something that the Israel Israel
did, which, which God found it despicable.

(23:43):
In fact, it is primarily one of thegreatest reasons why he sent them
into captivity is because of thatcomplaining spirit and and it was
there as part of the inner man before.
You know, any of the heat.
So primarily our problemsare spiritual problems.
Yes.
Rather inner man problems.
And I think that's so important.
The brain is like a translator.

(24:06):
I was thinking of this.
You know, what is thefunction of the brain?
It's like, it this way, it's like itconverts the immaterial to the material.
Yes.
Like it translates what's going on inthe immaterial man into material actions.
So, I'm mad at you.
Right.
And you say somethingto me and I punch you in

(24:28):
the arm.
Right, so the brain getsengaged then at that point.
Because the brain has to activateyour fists, you know, your
hands to ball up into a fist.
But what really activated that wasnot my brain, but the inner man.
Right.
And it translated, if you want tosay this, your brain, obviously, in
order to move anything in my body,my brain has to be active, right?

(24:51):
Right.
So my anger...
My anger then is released throughmy brain, which, which I've
said, I'm going to punch you.
I'm so mad at you right now.
Really, that's an act of hatred.
Right.
And I punch you in the arm.
That's not incidental.
No.
That's not accidental.
Right.
You know, I didn't just do that.
My brain did that.
No, no, no.

(25:11):
That all came from the inner
man.
Right.
So when people will do, they'll act out,you know, they'll, they'll pressures of
life, you know, that goes back to whatyou're asking, like your pressures life.
And then they act out andthey act like complete fools.
They say stupid things.
And then later do they go,I don't, that wasn't me.
That was you.
Yeah, that was you and you, you knowthat was going on in your heart.

(25:36):
It's just the filter was removed.
And that's another thing I think tothink of the brain is like a filter.
Yes.
It can filter in, into certainways what's going on inside.
So you might.
And you might realize that ifI, if I punch somebody that's
socially unacceptable, it's goingto be getting me in trouble.
And your brain might act as like afilter that, that, that can, they can,
they can in some ways hold that back.

(25:58):
But there are times where,you know, like alcohol.
Can remove that filter.
Yes.
Drugs can remove that filter.
You, you have...
And a lot of things happen.
Things happen.
Yeah.
But those don't happenbecause you're drunk.
They don't happen becauseyou're on drug zone.
Because it's alreadythere in the inner man.
That's right.
You know, you think of Mark 7,and I think Jesus, obviously,

(26:20):
being God, understands man.
He goes, for from within,out of the heart of man.
So, everything comes within, out ofthe heart of man, his mind, come evil
thoughts, Sexual immorality, theft,that theft isn't an action that I
just do on random and theft is anaction I do because it's in my heart.

(26:43):
Right.
And it works itself outin the physical body.
So I steal, murder, which we were justtalking about, adultery, there's no such
thing as a one night stand, you know,that adultery is adultery and you're
adulterizing because it's in your heartalready, it's working its way out.
Coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality,envy, slander, pride, foolishness,

(27:06):
you know, you think of that list andthey're not all just mind things,
but they start in the heart, but thenthey work their way out in actions.
And Jesus says, all thiscomes from the heart of man.
They all come from within the person.
They defile a person.
Yeah.
And so our actions are always a,an outcome of what is in the heart.

(27:27):
Right, right.
That's, that's the that's thebiblical view that the brain is not
the mind, the mind is not the brain.
Yes.
And and this becomes really important.
You know, there, there'sall kinds of things.
Well, if you, you start thinking likethat then what is mental illness?
What, what is it?
But that, that's the, the question.
What is the mind and can the mind, isit possible for it even to get ill?

(27:53):
If the mind is an internal inner man.
How can it get ill?
And if it can get ill or if itcannot get ill, you know, or if it
can get ill, how do you treat it?
That's right.
Yeah.
How can you treat the inner man?
I mean, what is thetreatment for the inner man?
Right.
And Jesus would sayit's the gospel, right?

(28:15):
It's the transforming work of thegospel that, that treats the inner man.
That's the only, that's the onlything that can treat the soul.
You know, Jesus said, what do you give?
And what can you give inexchange for your soul?
He didn't say, what can yougive in exchange for your brain?
It's your soul.
Cause everything that's, thatdrives out of the man is soul base.

(28:38):
It's your heart.
It's your mind.
It comes out of your deepest desires,longings, wishes goals, objectives.
Everything that comes out of us,as Jesus said in Mark 7, 20 through
23 there, comes out of the man.
And that's what defiles the man.
Yeah and yet, so when we hearthe term mentally ill, I think

(28:59):
we, Naturally think biological.
Yes.
And we've been conditionedto think that way.
I must, I must have chemical imbalances.
Which, as you were,you alluded to earlier.
That had, that entirething was always a theory.
That there's chemical imbalances.
Yes, a theory.
And...
They've, they've refuted it.

(29:19):
Yes.
They just came out with the, this was itthis past summer or whatever saying that,
that, you know, that's been disproven.
Yeah.
Totally disproven and totally taken down.
And the problem was all along thatyou, that you could never prove
what is a normal level of, of these.
Brain chemicals inside of a per anyindividual person, what is a normal level?

(29:40):
What is a deficiency looks like,what causes the deficiency and how
do you restore that to normal levels?
You can't prove any of that.
It's completely unmappable.
It's, it's, it's, it's completely unprovenin any way, but they made this theory
that said, well, the reason you're doingthis is because you're lacking these
chemicals and sure you can do teststhat show chemicals, but the problem

(30:02):
is, is you have no way of knowing what.
A normal amount of say, forinstance, serotonin is it
should be in your head, right?
They, they have no idea.
They have no idea.
And so it's, it's all a shot in the dark.
It really is.
It's we're going to adjustthe levels and see how you do.
Yes.
And and, and they don't really know.
They don't even really know how themedication, they don't know how it works.

(30:24):
Yeah.
And so what they do is theygive you this medication.
And so it, it even, even that becomesin a sense symptom based because
they give you this medication.
And then someone goes, I feel better.
Right.
And they go, Oh, well see, thatmust prove the theory right.
Right.
Right.
And all you did was make them feel better.
Right.

(30:45):
What?
You know, did, what did youactually do in the brain?
We don't know.
And of course we are not saying that, youknow, no one should ever take medications.
No.
That's not what we're saying.
No, no, no.
We're saying they don't reallyknow what they're doing.
They don't know whatmedications are doing.
Yes.
They have no idea.

(31:05):
And they're trying to treat what they callmental illness with, with medications.
The problem is, is if you actuallyhave a, a proper view of the way we
are made up, how do you take a chemicaland treat an immaterial problem?
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
You can't.
That's right.
It isn't a matter oftweaking, you know, biology.

(31:28):
Mm hmm.
It's an immaterial reality.
And this is, you know, thisis what we need to understand.
The mind is not the brain,the brain is not the mind.
That's right.
And so you can't treat mindproblems, speaking of the internal
man, with external man medications.
So yeah, you can cause a person to feelbetter, but that doesn't actually hmm.

(31:57):
You know, I don't know if it'llstop the blood or not, but
you got to remove the bullet.
That's right.
Yeah.
You have to remove the bullet.
Right.
Better.
Right.
So you know, I was thinking the,the mental illness, according to
the American Psychiatric Associationare conditions involving changes
in thinking, emotion or behavior.
And then in, in the aquote From Jay Adams.

(32:21):
Speaking of this, he says, thefact is that the words mental
illness are used quite ambiguously.
Organic malfunctions affectingthe brain that are caused by brain
damage, tumors, gene inheritance,glandia, or chemical disorders.
Validity may be turned mental illness.
Avalidly may be turned mental illness.
But at the same time, a vast numberof other human problems have been
classified as mental illnesses, forwhich there is no evidence that they have

(32:44):
been engendered by disease or illness.
At all.
So we are not saying that there is nosuch thing as biological mental issues.
If we're talking about, when you saymental illness, if we're talking about
somebody whose brain has been damaged.
Yes.
That's absolutely legitimate.
Yes.
And we would say then that, well, thetranslator is not translating correctly.

(33:06):
Yeah,
that happens.
Right, it
does.
Yes.
Clearly.
But the inner man is still functioning.
Yes it is.
Even when the translator
is not.
Right.
Which is really a, which is really avery interesting point because you think,
you know, you think of people who have.
You know, for instance, people thatare maybe very weighted on the, if you

(33:27):
want to call it the autism spectrum,they're super autistic, right?
And yet, biblically, theirinner man is fully functioning.
Fully functioning, it's just that thetranslator has a problem getting that out.
Right.
Like normal people do, right?
So, how do you ministerto a person that's...
Full blown autistic the same way youwould anybody you give him the gospel.

(33:50):
It's right
you spiritual.
Yeah, you go for inner man.
Yes,
that's right Yeah, you go for spiritualyou and let the Holy Spirit spirit do
its work do his do his work Becauseultimately the Holy Spirit can
change anyone right because you'retalking about inner man conflate

(34:13):
The mind with the brain, thenthere's no hope for those who are
permanently born, born brain damaged.
That's right.
That's right.
Like there's, you know,until their brain is fixed.
That's right.
But, but there is hope becausethe inner man is being renewed
daily for, for, for a believer.
That's right.

(34:33):
I, I remember as a kid, always, we usedto have these people come to our, our
church from the, from the shepherd'shome, which is a place in the Midwest
that works with mentally disabled.
People who are born with, you know,mental disabilities, like really
mentally disabled, what you, we usedto classify as retarded years ago.

(34:54):
That's what we used to say.
Right.
And so they would bring these people out.
Sometimes they would comewith them and they, the people
that they brought with them.
Were people that had actuallycome to Christ in this home
and their lives were different.
They were changed They knew and theyunderstood the gospel You couldn't
look at him say well, there's no hopefor them because they are entirely

(35:15):
mentally disabled No, the only hopeis the gospel because they still have
an inner man That responds and canrespond to the gospel because that's
where the Holy Spirit works, right?
He works in the inner man.
He doesn't work in the organ.
Right.
No, so it's I mean, he can choose towork in the organ if he wants, but,
you know he has the power to do that.

(35:37):
But, but he's primarily concerned withour spiritual well being in this age.
Right?
We're promised a new body in the ageto come where there won't be this kind
of broken translator thing going on.
But but there is this, this hope.
And so that the entire point is thateven for those who are mentally, who

(35:58):
are, who are physically mentally,if we want to, if we want to say
mentally equals brain brain damaged.
It is a work of God, it is, itis prayer, it is the scriptures
over and over and over and overand over again, it is the gospel.
That, you know, there's nothing, there'snothing different about the inner
person who is brain damaged than anyinner person who isn't brain damaged.

(36:19):
That is such a beautiful thing.
Yes, it is.
It's such a hopeful
thing.
You think of Romans 10, 9, 10, itsays for, for with the, in, in Romans
10, 10, it says for with the heart.
One believes and is justified, and withthe mouth one confesses and is saved.
And, and it's with the heart, notthe organ, it's the inner man.

(36:39):
It's with the heart thatone believes and is saved.
And that's just such great news,and with the mouth one confesses.
And so, you confess with your mouthwhat is true in the inner man,
is that you are trusting in JesusChrist as Lord, as Lord and Savior.
And, man, what a greatsense of hope for anybody.
The drug addict.

(37:00):
The alcoholic, it doesn'tmatter who you are, your hope
is in Christ and Christ alone.
That is so, so interesting.
So what that should do for us is itshould make us run headlong into the
people who are brain damaged, right?
And give them the hope, the peoplewho are, you know, whether born that

(37:21):
way or through drugs or whatever.
Like, There's hope.
Yes.
You know what, what, what a youknow, but, but here's what we've
done, and this is the real problem.
We have conflated the mind and the brain.
We've collapsed the mind and the brain,and so that in our thinking we're,
we've, we've become so influencedby this mono view of man monism Yes.

(37:44):
That he's just material.
Mm-hmm.
that when we see people who are.
You know, too far gone in our thinking,well, what's, there's no hope.
So, so we're not ministeringthe gospel like we should be.
And the other thing is this issomething that Gifford said,
which I found very interesting.
He said mental health, health is whichthey don't call it mental hygiene.

(38:05):
So beers, he called it mental hygieneand then it morphed into mental health.
But the same idea, mental healthhas ushered in the ability.
To talk about immaterial thingsand not talk about the Lord.
Yes.
And so what they've done is theyhave removed all the need to, to,
to talk about spiritual things.
Mm hmm.
And so you can go and you can,you can meet with the psychiatrist

(38:29):
and the psychologist and whatever.
And they never, ever, ever have to getto your real spiritual need, which is to
submit yourself to the Lordship of Christ.
No.
And what, what a what a horrible thingbecause that's the real need of man.
That's right.
That's right.
And, and, and then there's, there isn'tthis confronting with, with our world
that there are, there are immaterialthings, there, there are spiritual

(38:51):
realities going on because it's allbeen collapsed into a material reality.
And so they, they don't eventhink like that anymore.
No, they don't.
You know, it's so difficult now to go outand to talk about the Lord because they're
like, well, what are you talking about?
What does it have to do with, youknow, my you know, my problems,
my mental, my mental illness, mymental problems, my mental health,
illness.
Yeah.

(39:13):
Yeah, that's very true.
And man, the gospel is such a, such agreat, it's the only, it's the only tool.
It's the only news that can actually, it'sthe only medication, if you want to call
it that, that can actually help anybody.
Yeah.
Is the gospel.
And it doesn't matter whatyou've been diagnosed with.

(39:33):
It doesn't matter, you know,what you are in terms of.
Brain damage, if you've beenactually brain damaged because it,
the gospel penetrates the heart.
Yeah.
It's, it's the heart of man.
And that's what God
changes.
Right.
And this is why culture cannot cureissues of the heart with a pill.

(39:55):
Yes.
They can't do it.
And this is why when you have a mentalillness, it seems the greater emphasis on
mental illness in our day, the greater.
The problems have become because they'rethrowing pills at people and they're,
they're, they're trying, they'reconvincing parents that, that your
kids have you know, chemical, whatevergoing on disorders going on that,

(40:19):
that, that some medication is going to.
Look, I'm not saying that, thatthere's no place for medication.
I'm not saying no, no, I'm not sayingthat, you know, I'm, I'm not, you know,
that you would hope that you would havea doctor who is, it was really evaluating
your, the physical needs of your child.
And again, physical, but they arenot going to deal with the, with the

(40:41):
spiritual things that are with the
material issues going on,you know, you think of.
You think of ODD, and I rememberhearing about that a few
years ago, and I'm like, what?
Oppositional defiance disorder.
So, in essence, what itis, it's just rebellion.
Yeah.
And when you look at the descriptorin the DSM, it's basically just rebe

(41:04):
you don't like being told what to
do.
So the D DSM, the Diagnostic somethingmanual, I can't remember the S
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
Statistical Manual, yeah.
It's what, it's what the theentire psychological psychologist,
psychiatrist system uses todiagnose different illnesses.
Yes.
And there's like some 400, 500,I think it's approaching like

(41:25):
500 pages or something like that.
And the majority of those arealmost all of them are symptomatic.
They're they're symptom based.
They're not even diagnosis.
They're symptom based descriptions of,of of how you can classify behavior.
Right.
And so I've looked at the DSM onODD before, and I'm just like.

(41:45):
That's nothing more than
rebellion.
It's, it's just, right.
And it's, it's very interesting becauseyou know, when you look at the DSM
now, where I think it's on the fifthiteration, DSM five, now that's the
newest one and you go through that.
And I mean, I haven't looked at it indetail, but I mean, flipped through it
enough and it's like, well, who isn'tgoing to be diagnosed with something in
here who doesn't have a mental illness?

(42:06):
Everyone has a mental illness.
Oh, pretty
much.
Yeah.
You could look through thatthing and go, Oh, that's me.
Yeah.
That's me.
That's me.
That's me, because it's symptom based,you know, it's based on symptoms.
Oh, you feel like this?
Well, then you must be
anxious, right?
And that this is why you can go outand get diagnosis is whatever you want.
Anyone, just go get yourself diagnosed.
You become a victim.

(42:27):
You're not the, the, the, the hasnothing to do with the internal man.
You're not, you know, yourproblems are not your own fault.
You know, it's, it's, yeah.
It's my brain that does this.
This is the way my brain works.
Yes, this is the way my brain works.
It's my ADHD.
It's my ODD.
Right.
You know, my, I've heard, I've heard it.
My anxiety kicks in.
Yes.
You know, the there is no such thing asgeneral, generalized anxiety disorder.

(42:48):
That's another one.
GAD.
Yes.
There's no such thing.
It doesn't exist.
No.
And, and if, if, if someone says,well, you know, it does exist, I
would say, well, prove it, likescientifically prove it, show me,
do the, run the test, do the bloodtests and show me what, you know, gene

(43:09):
causes GAD.
It doesn't exist.
Or ODD.
There's no blood tests.
There's no gene.
There's no.
So, anything that's going to, tobe a, if you want to call it a
biological indicator that these areactually diseases in the body, which
is what they're trying to say, right?
And so if there's no actualbiology to it, then what is it?

(43:33):
It's, it's, it's symptom basedhypothesis for the most part.
And this is what I, what I would doif you're going to go and you're going
to get yourself evaluated, you know,go to a psychiatrist or whatever.
And, and, and they claim to be,they claim to be scientists.
Yes.
I would be asking, well,where's the blood tests?
You know, where, where's the proof?
You know what they're doing is they'redoing what, what you and I can do.

(43:57):
They're looking at your symptomsand they're pulling up the DSM
and they're, and they're going,well, you, you said that you're
having trouble sleeping, you know.
Who was it?
Gifford said that he went to thiswhole, he went to the psychiatrist
just to see what it would happen.
And, and they asked him,are you having trouble?
He goes, yeah, I'mhaving trouble sleeping.
But didn't bother asking.
But he was being honest.

(44:18):
But he didn't bother asking why.
He didn't ask why.
I mean, he had, what, a year, a year and ahalf old or whatever, who wasn't sleeping
through the night or something like that.
Or a new baby.
Yeah.
So of course he's having troublesleeping, but they don't ask that.
Oh, okay, there's a symptomof trouble sleeping.
And then they, they diagnosehim with mild depression.
Yes.
Well, I can do that.
Charge you, you know, what is it?
A hundred bucks an hour orsomething like I could do that.

(44:42):
I just, I would just have to go getmy DSM and certification so that,
you know, I have the, the backing.
That's right.
But this is what's going on.
It's not that there areno mental illnesses.
And I think we need tobe clear about that.
Because there are.
But you define mental.
Like the mind is not the brain,the brain is not the mind.
If you mean, if you mean illness ofthe immaterial, there's no such thing.

(45:03):
No.
But the ones that are being diagnosedof mental illness of those, there are
some that are, because they've collapsedit together it's all mixed together.
And, and we can say, yeah, there aresome that they actually diagnose that
are truly physical reality, you know.
In origin.
Right.
Yes.
In origin.
But the vast majority of them are not.

(45:25):
That's right.
That's very, very few.
I remember talking with, tom, one timeand Tom was like, yeah, there's probably
like 15 out of the 450 or 500 diagnosisthat actually have some kind of.
biological origin, maybe, he goes,maybe at the most 15 in the entire
book that you could actually sayyou might have some biology to it.

(45:48):
And I was like 15 out oflike, out of five, five, five.
Yeah.
That that's, that's an insanesmall amount, but that's not what.
People are being led to believe, peopleare being led to believe that mental
illness is everywhere and all thesepeople and all your problems are tied

(46:09):
to an organic issue in your brainwhen really it's an immaterial issue.
Right.
That's right.
And, and I think that's,that's so important.
If, if you're, if you're going toget testing, you're, you know, ask
him, what are you testing for andhow do you know that you found it?
Yeah.
You know, and if there isn't somebiological thing, because there are,

(46:30):
there are biological reasons for anxietythat there are, there, there's, there's
things that can happen, hormonal changes,you know, like there, there are things
that can happen that, that can cause yourbody to respond in, in toward anxiety.
I think, you know It's absolutely true.
But go ahead.
I was going to say, but, but it's,it's, it's actually, I think it was

(46:51):
the doctor, we went to a couple.
Years ago and, and we had a doctor at thebiblical Counseling conference mm-hmm.
, and he was saying that 90% ofthem, I think it was 90% are
not biological or of depression.
Yeah.
Diagnosis or not biological in origin.
Yeah.
They're spiritual issues.
Mm-hmm.
. And then if you, you know, if, if there is something that's biological or it

(47:12):
clears up immediate, When you starttreating it, you know, like hypothyroid
thyroidism or whatever you call that,where you have a thyroid, that's just
out of control that can, you know,that can lend itself to depressive like
symptoms, but once you start treatingit, those symptoms vanish, they go away.
And so again, there there's,there's biology behind that.

(47:34):
And once you get on the treatment,you start taking care of it.
Then those symptoms disappear.
Right.
So, you know, that you're dealing with.
Biology.
Right.
And I, I think that's that's whybeing able to go to a trusted
doctor who's actually going totest for something is important.
So, you know, the essence of what we'resaying here is that the mind is not

(47:57):
the brain, the brain is not the mind.
And all prob there may be physicalproblems, but all problems
really are spiritual problems.
Because they're how you areresponding to physical problems.
Yes.
And, you know, it is whatis going on in the heart.
The inner man.
That, that, that's what we'recalled to be focused on primarily.

(48:19):
It doesn't mean that we don't tryto, you know, to ease our pain.
Sure.
And that's where medications can come in.
Like, even the, the psychotropics.
Is that how you say it?
Psychotropics?
Yeah, like, there, there's...
You know, I don't, I don'twant to have this backlash.
It's all anybody's using medications orthat's, that's not what we're saying.
No, no, like there, there are timeswhen it is very much appropriate.

(48:43):
Yeah.
You
know, I remember hearing the storyabout a pastor who, who was depressed.
And so he, he took, he endedup getting, he started meeting
with biblical counselors.
They didn't, they couldn't figureout exactly what the source was,
but they said, Hey, why don't yougo see a doctor and let's make
sure there's no biology involved.
And he was prescribed some antidepressantsfor a short while, while he was meeting

(49:09):
with biblical counselors to work through,you know, issues in his life and things.
But then he got off of it.
You know, and he, he pulled offof it and, you know, things,
things settled back down again.
And I don't know if they ever foundout exactly what caused the depression.
Like, was there a, was there a definitivespiritual cause to this depression?

(49:29):
And I don't know that they really nailedthat down, but the site, the, the,
the medications did help for a while.
And he did.
He did respond well to his counseling,and, and his, you know, problem went away.
And so, again, I'm not saying it'dbe, it's a sin to take psychotropics,
but I think we need to be guarded.

(49:50):
Yeah.
We need to be guarded with them andmake sure that, you know, that the
psychotropic itself does not become our
source of hope.
Right.
And that's the real danger there.
Yes.
You know, you can, and I think there,there's so many ways that this can happen.
One, the psychotropic maybe is shiftingyour mood because it, they don't know how.

(50:14):
Right.
But it does.
Yeah.
They, they, they don't know how mm-hmm.
. But it can make you feel better.
But, but you know, so, so doesvarious other drugs do the same.
I mean, they just, they, whatever they do.
But if it shifts your mood enoughto where you're not actually dealing
with the spiritual issues that are.
The real source of it.
You're never going to get better.

(50:35):
You're never going to deal with it.
You know, this is, you've got to go andyou, you've got to search your heart.
You know, you saw me on 139 andsearch me, know me and try to see
if there's any wicked way in me.
That's right.
And this is where we get intothe whole self esteem thing.
I mentioned on Sunday morning, like selfesteem, when you feel bad about yourself.
That, that's your conscience workingwith the world called self esteem.

(50:55):
I want to do a podcast on that.
Nicholas Ellis has written a bookon self esteem and and I think
there's just so interesting.
He does a doctorate on thisand just so interesting.
When you feel bad, it's usually causeyou did bad, you know, low self esteem
is usually cause you're sinning.
Yes.
And and anyway I don't rememberwhy, why I got onto that.

(51:17):
Just, just to say like, yo, yeah,cause, cause you've got to work,
you got to work with those likeyou, you've got to deal with.
The bad feelings at the root.
Yes.
At the spiritual, at the inner man.
At the inner man level.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
So, and there's more I think we cantalk about we're, we're pushing time

(51:38):
here.
Yeah, I think that's been a great,you know, introductory piece here.
Maybe sometime down the road, wecan follow up, but you know, I
think it's important that people,you know, our people, I want our
church people to understand that we,we can't conflate brain and mind.
There are two different things.
And I think biblically consistently,I think you see that biblically as

(51:59):
well, is that the, the inner manis, is separate from the outer man.
And while there is, there isinterplay between the two, we
don't want to make them synonymous.
Right.
Because that's when we get
into trouble.
Right, and you know, applythat to parenting too.
Yes.
Because if you are telling your childrenthat their problem is some biological

(52:22):
you know, some biological problem andnot primarily a spiritual problem.
Yes.
You are making themvictims of their biology.
That's right.
And then if you're giving them medicationsto try to treat their biology, but you're
never actually treating the inner man.
Mm hmm.
You're, you're, you're making themdependent on, or they're, they're, they're
either, they're, they're victims, right?

(52:44):
And they're dependent on someexternal pill that isn't going to
solve their internal heart issue.
That's right.
And that becomes very dangerous becauseyou are, that's anti gospel is what it is.
That's right.
You're not, you're notpointing them to Christ.
You may be talking about Jesus.
You need Jesus.
You may be saying that, but youare demonstrating at the same time.

(53:05):
You're telling them, but yourproblem is you're a victim.
That's right.
You're you're a victim of your biology.
You, you know, this, this braindamage or this happened, you know,
traumatic, whatever, when you were akid or whatever, not that those things
aren't don't, don't affect someone,but that is not what's really going on.
What's really going onis a, is a heart issue.
And again, I would go back to Matt, youknow, if you doubt that, go back and read.

(53:28):
Mark 7, 20 through 23, where Jesusclearly says, this is what defiles
a person, all these things that comeout of the heart that end up being
actions and words and attitudesthat that's what defiles the man.
And so you're, you're absolutely right.
And a lot of times withkids, what happens is they.

(53:48):
They misbehave, theymisbehave, they misbehave.
And we say, Oh man, theirproblem is biological.
So we go to a doctor, they get pills.
And then after a while that stops working.
So we go, Oh, we got tochange the pills, right?
Change the medication.
And so we changed the medicationbecause we're not dealing
with things at a heart level.
I was just thinking, I, I know severalkids who've literally spent almost their

(54:09):
entire Childhood into their teens, youknow, on medications and whenever they
would, you know, the behavior wouldstart acting up, they'd go, Oh man,
we need to do something here, doc.
There's something going on here.
Then they would go and theywould change medication.
And the problem is, is that you'venever really dealt with the heart issue.

(54:34):
Behind the behavior, they've never, youknow, they grew up in church, they never
believed the gospel, they never, you know,gave their lives to Christ, but, but at
home they were never treated as if, youknow, or looked at as if this is a inner
man issue, instead it was completelytreated as an outer man only issue, and

(54:55):
therefore they are victims of Of biology.
I remember one time sitting in, sittingin a, in a youth room talking to one of
the youth and he just starts spittingout all this psychology to me and I'm
like, you know, here's a kid who's like16 years old and he goes, yeah, I've been
diagnosed as blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And this is my problem.
And when, you know, my medication is off.

(55:16):
So I had to go down here and get, get anincrease in, in, in medication because,
you know, the doctor said that blah,blah, blah, and he's throwing out all
this, like, psychology vernacular atme and I'm like this dude knows his
psychology but he doesn't know hisBible but he knows his psychology.
Yeah.
And he can tell me everything thathis doctors have ever told him.

(55:37):
That's his gospel.
That's his gospel.
That's
his gospel.
Yeah.
He's been trained on that.
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
You know it's we're definitely over timebut it just made me just think like if...
It's true that we are that we are victimsof our biology as we're being taught
and how unjust is God to condemn us.

(55:57):
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, there's somethingthat is not our fault.
That's right.
Yeah, it doesn't seem rightRight, you know, it doesn't seem
like a very just and the Bible
certainly never never gives room for thatkind of View that God has of man, right?
In fact God's God's view of man is onlythat he is guilty for his sin, period.

(56:24):
He is, he is, right.
Read Romans 3.
This is the natural man.
The soul that sins will
die.
Not the soul that sins unintentionally.
But the soul that sins, period.
It's a spiritual soul.
Spiritual inner man.
That that's very interesting.
That if If God, oh, and I was thinkingtoo, like, if it's no wonder then that

(56:51):
you find a lot of young people very angry.
Yes.
Because they've been taught theirwhole life that they're victims.
Mm hmm.
That makes life unfair.
That makes God very cruel.
Yes.
And then God condemnsthem for their victimness?
Like, what kind of a God is that?
That's right.
And that makes life unfair.
Life is unfair.
Because I'm just nothing but a victim.

(57:12):
I can't do anything about it.
I can't help
it, and yet you'retreating me as if I can.
Yeah.
Interesting.
There's all kinds of stuff.
We could keep going with some of this.
And I'll just say, there'sno such thing as ODD parents.
There's no such thing.
Yeah.
If your kids are being tested, askthe doctor, what are you testing for
and how do you know that you found it?

(57:32):
Yes.
All right, this hasbeen a good discussion.
Hopefully helpful.
We're, we're we're at time here.
So yeah, enjoyed this.
Yes.
All right.
Thank you for listening.

(57:53):
Again, the Ministry of FaithBaptist Church in Visalia.
And if you are not part of a church,or not part of a church that teaches
the scripture and things like what wediscussed about, then come join us.
Sunday's at 10.
30, and 6 o'clock in the evening.
We'll love to see you there, so, until
next time!