March 19, 2024 • 29 mins
In this captivating episode, Eric and Shiloh explore the profound truths behind believer’s baptism and its connection to our Christ-identity. You may be surprised to discover how believer's baptism leads us into a deeper understanding of Scripture as a whole as it works out Christ's Kingdom program.
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Episode Transcript
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Shiloh Noorthoek (00:16):
Well,
Pastor Eric (00:16):
welcome to another podcast here from Faith Baptist
Church in Visalia, California.
My name is Eric Noorthoek.
I'm one of the pastors here.
And it's been a while sincewe have done a podcast.
It feels like anyway it's beena busy last couple of weeks.
Of course, life is very busy as apastor anyway, but I'm glad to be back.
(00:38):
And today our topic of conversationwill be well, the, the title of the
podcast is called Why Faith Baptist.
Right.
And I have Shiloh, my, my son, he was,he's been on the podcast before he's
on spring break from college from TMU.
So welcome back,
Shiloh Noorthoek (00:59):
Shiloh.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And the topic is why Faith Baptist?
Why are we called Faith Baptist?
Pastor Eric (01:06):
Right.
And this is an interesting topicfor, for a whole bunch of reasons.
But when Shiloh came to me andhe said, Hey, I want to do you
know, cause we, we talk aboutdoing a podcast when he's in town.
I think we tried lasttime you were in town.
I didn't, we never got around toit, but and it's always fun to have.
Have you on Shiloh?
(01:26):
But you said, Hey, let's do it on,on why, why we, why we're Baptists.
And and so we started talking about itand it was just, it was just interesting
how many places we went and how central.
you know, believers baptismis to who we are, right?
What we align ourselves with in termsof our doctrine and in so many things.
(01:51):
It's
Shiloh Noorthoek (01:51):
astonishing how many sections of scripture
are pulled in when you, when youstart talking about, well, why and
thinking, why exactly are we Baptist.
What, what, what's thereasoning behind that?
Right.
Pastor Eric (02:05):
It pulls in lots of scripture.
So we're going to try to bringthis down into a podcast.
So we're not going several hours.
Cause I think we could probably, we're totrace this out as crazy as that sounds.
Right.
But Why are we not infant Baptists?
Why not a good faith infant Baptists?
(02:29):
Because that's reallywhat we're talking about.
Believers baptism, which which to use theterm, you know, the theological terms that
have been put out there you have what'scalled Credo Baptists, which is, which is
baptism for those who made a confessionof faith, or a profession of faith.
And then you have Paedo Baptistswhich is baptism for those for the
(02:51):
word Paedo being, you're referringto the child, children, infant
Shiloh Noorthoek (02:54):
Baptists.
Right.
And I think, I think for, for thisconversation, I think we need to
start with Well, first of all, why,why would people be infant baptism,
infant baptist in, in general?
Right.
What's, what's the argument?
What's the argumentation?
Right.
What kind of verses do they go to?
And what's the
Pastor Eric (03:11):
reasoning?
And, and I will say this too, as we,as we get into this this has been
a fiery debate over the centuries.
And to the point where you know, there,there was persecution over what were known
as Anabaptists back in under Zwingli's.
It was just a fascinating story aboutZwingli's Bible study group and,
and how he ends up drowning some ofthem because they, they confessed,
(03:33):
they, they, they turned away frompato baptism into believer's baptism.
They drowned them because they,they, they were holding to believers
baptism and rejecting infant baptism.
And this became a massive persecution.
And so those who were holding a believer'sbaptism were being drowned by their
reformed brothers in Christ and beingburned to death by the Catholic church.
(03:55):
And there's been a lot of.
Of persecution that way.
Just, just in terms of where thishas come from and there's a lot of
history there, but, but nowadays thereisn't the same kind of war, right?
between the Pedos and thecredos that there was.
Now, now there, there's therethere's comradery there, there's an
(04:15):
understanding of, of, of essential things.
And, and so I've got brothers I love.
Who are, who are Pedobaptists.
And so it's, you know, thetone of everything has changed.
But it's still important.
It's still important.
And and so why are we not Faith InfantBaptist Church what do you think Shiloh?
(04:36):
Why, why not?
Well,
Shiloh Noorthoek (04:38):
Like I said before, in order to answer that question, you
have to, you have to understand what theargument of the, the Infant Baptist is.
You can't just start by saying we believein Believers Baptism because we always
have believed in Believers Baptism.
And that's just the way it is, right?
You have to understand the, the argument.
And so the, the infant Baptistargument begins with a conflation
(05:02):
of baptism with circumcision.
And there's a sense in which thechurch has the responsibility of
initiating their children into
Pastor Eric (05:17):
the covenant.
Okay.
So this is going backto Abrahamic covenant.
Where Abraham is commanded, andhe's given the promise, so, so,
interestingly, it's faith first 15.
6, Abraham believes he'scoming from righteousness.
And then you have this command forcircumcision, those who are brought into
this covenant under the Abrahamic covenantand that defines those who are associated
(05:43):
with Abraham and then later we have theMosaic covenant that is given to, to,
to further define who these people are.
Right.
But it is circumcision that,that is the, the sign of that
covenant made with Abraham.
And so what you're saying is thatwhen we come to the New Testament,
(06:03):
baptism is seen in, in the, in the PatoBaptist, the infant Baptist circles
as a replacement of circumcision.
Is that, is that what you're saying?
Shiloh Noorthoek (06:15):
Right.
And because, because it's a replacementof circumcision and because baptism.
Performs the same function inthat it's a sign of that covenant,
it needs to be Given in the same setof circumstances that circumcision was
right, which was I mean We know eighthday even Jesus was circumcised on the
(06:38):
eighth day according to the Mosaicor the Abrahamic Covenant, right?
and so Just as Jesus was,just as all these infants were
in the, that are Israelites.
So we need to be baptizinginfants in this in the same way.
Pastor Eric (06:53):
Right.
Circumcision was a sign thatyou belonged to the, to the to
Abraham in part of that covenant.
It was a sign, didn't guaranteethat you were because it
didn't save, but it was a sign.
In believers baptism, we havethe same kind of thing happening.
It is a sign, it does not save,it does not guarantee that your
(07:15):
profession is real, but it is a sign.
Right.
And so and I think that's importantto make that, that, that statement.
The Bible does commandthat we are to be baptized.
And it is a sign.
It is a statement that you are making.
To you know, in front of God and witnessesthat you have chosen to follow Christ.
(07:38):
From
Shiloh Noorthoek (07:38):
a Believer's Baptist standpoint.
From a Believer's Baptist standpoint.
We would also agree that it
Pastor Eric (07:43):
is, that it is a sin.
That's what I'm saying.
Right.
So we're, we're gonna agree there.
And I, I just want to say like, asFaith Baptists, this is a big deal.
Right.
We're raised to new lifeand baptism itself becomes
a picture, a symbol of that.
And it is something that is commanded somethat Jesus himself did when he went down
into that water and he came out of it.
(08:05):
It is, this is more than just ceremony.
It is more than just.
You know, some kind of Jewishholdover, because I've heard some
people say that this is what weare called to do is to be baptized.
So that brings other questions.
Well, if it is a sign.
Like circumcision was a sign.
Circumcision was given to, inthe eighth day, like you said.
(08:26):
Right.
So it was given to infants.
Why doesn't, why don't we do thatwith with, with the, you know,
the, the sign in the new covenant?
Shiloh Noorthoek (08:34):
Right.
And if you're an infant Baptist,you say, well, there is no reason.
And in fact, we should.
And, and they even wouldsay that there's, there's
corroboration of that in scripture.
I mean, maybe not explicitly,but you see in, you know, act 16,
for example, where In Philippi,1615, the, the whole household
Pastor Eric (08:59):
is baptized.
Oh yeah, right, so the whole householdis baptized, which would include infants.
Where,
Shiloh Noorthoek (09:03):
where Lydia is, when Lydia is saved, after Paul
preaches to her, and she, she andher whole household are baptized.
Right.
And that's just an example ofthis happening here, where once
she's in that covenant, right,her, her family joins her.
Right as it were.
And then, you know, otherpassages are the same.
(09:24):
And then one Corinthians seven14 where the, the unbelieving
Pastor Eric (09:28):
wife sanctifies, the unbelieving husband is sanctified.
I got right here, right Unbelieving.
The husband is sanctified throughhis wife and the unbelieving wife
is sanctified through her believinghusband for otherwise your children
are unclean, but now they are holy.
Shiloh Noorthoek (09:41):
You have.
not only this, not only do you havethe basis, the theological construction
for the circumcision being taken outof baptism, but you also on the face
of it seem to have some corroboration,some support for it in scripture, at
least from an infant Baptist position.
We would say that this, thissupports that we should be baptizing
Pastor Eric (10:01):
infants.
Okay.
This is, this is where thisbecomes a major, major separation
in, in understanding, and thisis where we end up going all over
the place in scripture, right?
Because what, what we end up doing iswe, we bring this continuity from the
(10:22):
old Testament to the new and, and, andin order to remain that continuity, you
end up doing, bring that everywhere.
So if, so very simply, if, if infant.
If, if, if baptism replacescircumcision, then you have to say
that the church replaces Israel, right?
Shiloh Noorthoek (10:39):
Or, yeah, they, they, they have the same, they,
they are the same entity in, in some
Pastor Eric (10:45):
way.
Because if, if baptism, if, ifcircumcision itself was a sign
of those who belong to Israel,
then if we're going to drain that, bringthat same continuity or correlation
across to the New Testament, we have tosay that the church is that, that Israel,
and if the church is that Israel, thenthe sign of that covent is baptism.
(11:07):
And if the sign of the covenantis baptism, then you then, then,
then, then you have to followthose commands, like, you know,
where it's applied to the infant.
You have strong correlation.
You
Shiloh Noorthoek (11:16):
have the situation where there's nothing different between
the two, at least in their significanceor meaning, other than the only
difference is the external ceremony.
So, we're, instead of circumcising,we're just sprinkling or
dunking infants, you know.
So, so it's the same thing, it's just done
Pastor Eric (11:36):
differently now.
Right, so what's wrong with that?
Shiloh Noorthoek (11:39):
Well, well like you said, I think it ultimately,
He's an issue of continuity, right?
The entire argument depends on Israeland the church being synonymous.
In the sense that baptism can becorrelated exactly with circumcision.
And vice versa.
And that assumes that the Israeland the church are the same entity.
(11:59):
Right.
So it's a, but, but we would asbelievers of baptism say, Baptists say
that there is a, Discontinuity betweenbetween Israel and the church in some
ways right and and thus since there's adiscontinuity between Israel the church,
there's also a discontinuity betweenor, sorry, circumcision and baptism.
(12:20):
They, they're not the same thing.
Right.
Pastor Eric (12:22):
They, they aren't the same covenant in terms of mosaic law, right?
The mosaic law has been fulfilled inChrist and we have a new covenant.
And in that new covenantthere's, a new sign.
So like there's, well, wherethere's, where there's continuity,
I guess this is what I'm saying.
There's continuity because they'reboth signs, but there's discontinuity
(12:43):
in that they're not the same thing.
Right.
And I think that's what you're saying.
That's the key point that you, when youtry to make a hard line continuity between
everything you end up you end up sort ofdoing away with with all of the, like,
like Israel, for example, and variousother types that are in the Old Testament.
So,
Shiloh Noorthoek (13:03):
so like when you're talking about when we, when we started
discussing this for the first time,we thought it was just a simple
discussion of like believers baptism.
You know, every time you seethat believers are baptized.
You know, after believing right inscripture, I mean, you can go to acts
eight so many passages, even Matthew28, but you, you don't understand that
it actually begins with, with yourperception of Israel in the church.
(13:25):
Ecclesiology is primary.
Yeah, premier,
Pastor Eric (13:28):
premier in this, it's right.
It's a discussion, it's a discussion ofthe Israel's Israel's role in the church's
role in the distinctions that are there.
And and this is the problem.
So it becomes an issue of what hasclassically been called the covenantalism
versus dispensationalism, right?
And so you have the covenantalistsand I don't, we don't need to get into
(13:50):
all of that, but it is a fascinatingstudy of, of, of, you know, the
theological covenants and all of this.
But.
In covenantal wisdom, they would, theywould carry through these covenants into
the, into the New Testament in, in a waythat that tries to hold it consistently.
And so there's a strongcontinuity in dispensationalism.
(14:15):
You have a, a like, like a massivediscontinuity where no, the
church has not replaced Israel.
And and as such.
You end up in classic dispensationalism,creating What has been, which is what
dispensationalists have been accused ofyou end up creating two peoples of God.
Right.
Right?
Like two plans of salvation.
(14:36):
Israel had their own plan in theOld Testament under the Mosaic Law.
Then, the, the, the NewCovenant has a new plan.
And so Israel is their own people of God.
The church is their own people of God.
Israel had their own plan of salvation.
The church has theirown plan of salvation.
Classical dispensationalism.
Classical dispensationalism,
Shiloh Noorthoek (14:53):
yeah.
Divides and makes two peoples of God.
Right.
It's just, you know,
Pastor Eric (14:56):
Right.
And, and so that's, that, that's again,back to this continuity discounting.
So, so there's a strong, either strongcontinuity with the covenantalists
or this strong discontinuity withthe dispensationalists in the past.
Right.
And so this has been, this has beenthe major issue and this has been the
accusation from the covenantalistsagainst the dispensationalists.
(15:16):
And I think it'sSchofield's reference Bible.
They there's a note in there where,where they even word it in such a way.
It sounds like they'resaying there are two.
peoples of God or two plans of salvation.
Right.
And I think that the, the accusationfrom the covenantalist to the
dispensationalist is has been,you know, it's been true, right?
Because if you're going to make, ifyou're going to be a dispensationalist and
(15:38):
you're going to make the two peoples ofGod and two plans of salvation, whether
you intend to or not, that, that ifyou're going to be overly discontinued.
Kind of news,
Shiloh Noorthoek (15:46):
you end up doing that, right?
You end up splitting up the old NewTestament, which in a way that the
scriptures itself doesn't do right?
Paul actually explains, heexplains what the church is.
He says in Romans 1117, that, butif some of the branches were broken
off, that is, some of the Jews thatare unbelieving were broken off.
(16:07):
And you being a wild olive,were, were grafted in.
Among them, it became partakerwith them and of the rich,
rich root of the olive tree.
And then there's an adadmonition not to boast.
Right?
Right.
But the point is, the point is is thatunbelieving Jews were broken off and
believing gentiles were grafted in.
And so there's, it's not that thechurch has replaced Israel so much
(16:28):
as it is the church has joined
Pastor Eric (16:31):
with.
Yeah.
And so there's continuity.
So there is continuity.
Right.
And there's discontinuity.
Right.
And that's really the key to all of this.
is being able to understand whatwhat, what is you know, what we
hold to as continuity between thechurch and Israel, because there is.
Because we've been grafted in and,and, and, and so we are brought into
(16:54):
the promise of Abraham, are we not?
Abraham has promised, the seedpromise of Abraham, that all the
nations of the earth would be blessed.
It's right there in the Genesis 15through 17, it is a promise to the
seed of Abraham and to the nations.
But, but it hasn't been fulfilled.
Right.
It hasn't, it was partially fulfilled,but then Israel was unfaithful and
(17:18):
you never had the kind of descriptionsof of what is portrayed of Christ
when he comes and he rules andreigns where he finally and fully.
Brings us into that promise.
Shiloh Noorthoek (17:27):
So full, full continuity completely obliterates that.
Right, right.
You're, you're unable, you're unableto make the distinction between,
between Israel and the church.
And so the promises to Israel in theOld Testament, particularly the ones
of, of land, have been co opted in somerespects to, to apply to the church.
Right.
And it's impossible to do that.
(17:47):
Without making it some spiritual aspect.
And, and so, you, you end up having tochange what scripture is saying there.
So instead of land promises thatare actually defined geographically
in the Old Testament, you have somesort of, well, we're going to take
dominion over the earth kind of thing.
Some explanation that doesn'ttake into account the actual
Pastor Eric (18:07):
promises, right?
And so this becomes an issue of overspiritualizing, which is very, very,
very, very common in the paedal Baptist,Baptist campus, as much as I love,
you know my brothers that are there.
This is the issue.
they tend to in order to maintainthat strong continuity, they
have to spiritualize thingsthat are more than spiritual.
(18:30):
And that's the real issue.
You, like, this is, this is platonic thisdualism , where you're not holding in
balance the fact that there are spiritualpromises that have physical realities.
And so, yes we are, in a sense,a spiritual Israel, but there
(18:51):
is also a physical Israel.
And so, there is continuity ina spiritual sense, but there is
discontinuity in a physical sense.
Shiloh Noorthoek (19:01):
And
this dicontinuity
is,, Found in the the new covenant.
Yeah, that's that's where the essence ofit is And this is also where it where it
applies to baptism where we get all thisall these scattered things the continuity
discontinuity the Abrahamic blessingpromises to to him and then you know,
these land promises Israel in the church,you know all these confusing things They
(19:23):
come together when you think about whenyou're thinking about the new covenant.
What is the new covenant, right?
And so I guess we'llstart in Jeremiah, right?
I mean, what, what is the new covenant?
I mean, you can answer that question.
The new heart.
That's a new heart.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
And then how do you getinto the new covenant?
And now, now you're not just talking aboutsome promise that is physical, right?
(19:46):
Or, you know, Abraham, a covenant, whichwas the promise to all the earth, right?
That was taken, that was signifiedby physical means, right?
Circumcision is physical, right?
Now.
Now you're talking about aspiritual transformation.
Yeah.
In the sense that the newcovenant, or getting into the new
(20:06):
covenant is a spiritual change.
Yeah, that's right.
And now we're justtalking about the gospel
Pastor Eric (20:10):
here.
Right.
So, if you go back to circumcision,you have this promise to Abraham that
in your seed all the nations
of the earth would be blessed.
And the sign of that promise Iscircumcision, which is, I mean, I don't
(20:33):
want to be crass, but we're talking aboutthe very source of the seed, the literal
physical seed which is why that sign wasplaced in that particular location on
the male body, you know, because it is apicture of where that seeds come because
we're going all the way back to Genesis,Genesis three 15, where the seed would
come, it would crush the serpent's head.
(20:54):
And then we narrow in while it's a seed.
Because you see this, you see, like inGenesis four Eve thinks, well, you know,
I've, I've gotten a man of the Lord.
She thinks that Cain isthat promised one, I think.
Right.
But then you, you, as you go furtheralong, you're, you go into Abraham,
it narrows in here's the seed is, issomebody who is a descendant of Abraham
(21:16):
and then it just narrows in furtheras you get through the old Testament.
But the point is the sign.
Is that those who are the sign ofcircumcision is, is, is pointing
to this seed promise, right?
Shiloh Noorthoek (21:32):
Who will come about, but the seed of the woman, right.
Right.
And, and you know, that, that,that seed is going to come out
of out of descendants of Abraham.
Yeah.
Right.
And so that's why we have circumcision,but now who is that seed, right?
It's Jesus.
Jesus
Pastor Eric (21:46):
fulfilled circumcision, right?
He is the seed.
that was promised.
And because Jesus fulfilled it,there is a new covenant that
has been created in his blood.
Right.
Therefore, there is a new sign.
And so there is a discontinuity.
Yes.
There's continuity in that there isa sign, but there is discontinuity
(22:09):
in that Christ fulfilled thatsign and now he has created a
new sign in, in where baptism is.
And this is why we,
Shiloh Noorthoek (22:19):
dunk.
And this is where it gets all theway back to why faith Baptist?
Why faith Baptist?
Why Baptist?
Why not infant Baptist?
Because baptism is the sign of the
Pastor Eric (22:28):
it is the sign that you have.
You've been buried with Christ throughthe water and there's pictures of
water , new created reality butyou've been buried with Christ and
you have been raised to new life.
So you end up with what youwere saying, Jeremiah, this new.
Heart, this new created reality,baptism is a sign that says, I
(22:54):
belong to the one who fulfilled theseed promise given to to, to Eve.
And this is,
Shiloh Noorthoek (23:01):
and this is why believers, the ones, only the ones who
have been actually put into the covenantwho have actually received the new
heart that comes from the new covenant.
They are the only ones who can, who canproperly have the sign of the covenant.
And this is why baptism should only beadministered to believers and not infants.
Because they can't, they'renot, our children aren't
(23:24):
included in the new covenant.
The way is narrow that leads to life.
And there are few who find it.
And it's, it's so narrow thatonly, One person can pass at a
Pastor Eric (23:34):
time, you know?
Right.
Those who, who believe.
Right.
And it also stresses the importance,the absolute vital importance of just
like in the Old Testament, again,continuity to the Old Testament, it
was necessary that if you were part ofthat seed promise to Abraham, a people
of God as a, as a matter of obedience,that you as as a male were circumcised
(24:00):
in the New Testament, it is necessary.
that you demonstrate that youhave been brought into this
new life by being baptized.
And by necessary, Idon't mean it saves you.
I mean that it is a, it is an evidence.
You belong to Christ.
It is this new reality thatyou are professing and you
(24:23):
are confessing as a believer.
And and for you to to not takethat step of baptism is, is it's
to miss the, the, the point of
all of what has been fulfilled inChrist, and to lack that desire
to then follow him in obedience.
(24:46):
That's, I don't understand why youwouldn't obey him in that way, and
yet say that I have a new heart.
I mean, we're, by being
Shiloh Noorthoek (24:56):
baptized, we're putting ourselves in the same category.
We're saying, we're saying toeveryone, I belong to the new covenant.
I belong to Christ.
Right.
And, and to not do thatis to To exemplify a,
Pastor Eric (25:15):
a shame or to picture yourself as an outsider, right?
Shiloh Noorthoek (25:19):
You know, either, either you're ashamed of Christ
or you're just not interested inbecoming part of this covenant or
Pastor Eric (25:28):
signifying that you are part of the covenant.
It's almost like you're saying that Iprefer to be identified as an outsider.
So I don't want to, I don'twant to take on the sign.
It doesn't make sense.
So, so people would get caught up in this.
Well, it's.
You know, baptism doesn't save you.
No, baptism doesn't save you.
But if you're saved, why wouldn't youwant to identify yourself with this sign?
(25:50):
Why wouldn't you want to say, to,to, you know, You know, to Christ
and to the world, I belong to Jesus.
I have been buried with him.
I have been raised in new life.
I have received that spiritof living water and it flows
Shiloh Noorthoek (26:04):
through me.
And not only have we received thoseblessings, but we also identify with
ourselves, with the ones who are, whoare expectantly waiting for Christ
to return to establish his kingdom.
Right.
I mean, we're.
We're the ones who, who watch for hisreturn, who aren't, who aren't sleeping.
We're of the day, not of the night,right, as Thessalonians says.
And, and those, those people are the onesto whom God has promised a kingdom to rule
(26:29):
and reign with Christ forever and ever.
Yeah.
And that's, that's whatit means to be baptized.
Yeah, I want to, I wantto identify with that.
To bring ourselves into that group, tobe the ones who say, oh, We, along with
everyone else in this group, we love God.
We love God.
We love Christ, and we'rewaiting for him to return.
He's our Savior.
He's our everything, andthat's what that's what baptism
Pastor Eric (26:46):
signifies.
It's the same in the OldTestament, the continuity.
If you're circumcised, youbelong to the people of God.
In the New Testament, if you're baptized,you belong to the people of God.
That's what you're saying.
That's a sign.
That's a statement you're making.
Now, infant baptism, I think,destroys that entire picture.
(27:07):
It makes it about, well, it makes, it, it,it's almost like you're going back to the
old covenant and, not seeing how it isfulfilled in Christ, how he is that seed.
And I'm not saying that they do that.
I'm not saying that theydeny that Christ fulfills it.
Of course, they say allis yes and amen in Christ.
(27:27):
I know that's like a big thingwith infant baptism millennials,
like Jesus fulfills everything.
Of course he does.
They're not denying that.
But I think, I think in the picture, inthe symbol, you end up putting us into
the strong, strong continuity into oldTestament that you, dare I say I think it
has an undermining effect to the gospeland to the motivation of the believer.
(27:53):
This is why
Shiloh Noorthoek (27:54):
we're Faith Baptists.
Pastor Eric (27:55):
Yeah, this is why we're Faith Baptists.
It is a continuity discontinuity issue.
And what that means is you justneed to go to the Bible and you need
to apply a proper hermeneutics tounderstand what it is saying in context.
Don't try to to over spiritualize things,apply a, a hermeneutic that is consistent
(28:18):
between the Old and the New Testament.
And I think that you end upwith baptism is a sign that
you have been saved by faith.
Shiloh Noorthoek (28:26):
Baptism is, the reason we're believers in baptism, like the
core, I think you said it, the coreis because we want to be identified.
Yeah.
We want to be identified with Christ.
Right.
And, and the same thing, likeit's the same thing with,
With our faithfulness, right?
The baptism is just another way wecan exhibit faithfulness to Christ.
(28:46):
He commands it.
We want to obey him.
And I think that's, that's,that's the essence of it.
That's the core.
That's the essence.
That's what we want to take away.
Pastor Eric (28:53):
Why wouldn't you want to do that?
All right, cool.
Good.
Excellent.
Again, this is a ministryof Faith Baptist Church.
And just a reminder.
We do have Sunday services, 10 30.
(29:16):
Okay.
9.
30 Sunday school and then 6 o'clock p.
m.
we do our Sunday evening
service.
So you're welcome to come and I hope thatyou find this helpful until next time
Well,
Pastor Eric (00:16):
welcome to another podcast here from Faith Baptist
Church in Visalia, California.
My name is Eric Noorthoek.
I'm one of the pastors here.
And it's been a while sincewe have done a podcast.
It feels like anyway it's beena busy last couple of weeks.
Of course, life is very busy as apastor anyway, but I'm glad to be back.
(00:38):
And today our topic of conversationwill be well, the, the title of the
podcast is called Why Faith Baptist.
Right.
And I have Shiloh, my, my son, he was,he's been on the podcast before he's
on spring break from college from TMU.
So welcome back,
Shiloh Noorthoek (00:59):
Shiloh.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And the topic is why Faith Baptist?
Why are we called Faith Baptist?
Pastor Eric (01:06):
Right.
And this is an interesting topicfor, for a whole bunch of reasons.
But when Shiloh came to me andhe said, Hey, I want to do you
know, cause we, we talk aboutdoing a podcast when he's in town.
I think we tried lasttime you were in town.
I didn't, we never got around toit, but and it's always fun to have.
Have you on Shiloh?
(01:26):
But you said, Hey, let's do it on,on why, why we, why we're Baptists.
And and so we started talking about itand it was just, it was just interesting
how many places we went and how central.
you know, believers baptismis to who we are, right?
What we align ourselves with in termsof our doctrine and in so many things.
(01:51):
It's
Shiloh Noorthoek (01:51):
astonishing how many sections of scripture
are pulled in when you, when youstart talking about, well, why and
thinking, why exactly are we Baptist.
What, what, what's thereasoning behind that?
Right.
Pastor Eric (02:05):
It pulls in lots of scripture.
So we're going to try to bringthis down into a podcast.
So we're not going several hours.
Cause I think we could probably, we're totrace this out as crazy as that sounds.
Right.
But Why are we not infant Baptists?
Why not a good faith infant Baptists?
(02:29):
Because that's reallywhat we're talking about.
Believers baptism, which which to use theterm, you know, the theological terms that
have been put out there you have what'scalled Credo Baptists, which is, which is
baptism for those who made a confessionof faith, or a profession of faith.
And then you have Paedo Baptistswhich is baptism for those for the
(02:51):
word Paedo being, you're referringto the child, children, infant
Shiloh Noorthoek (02:54):
Baptists.
Right.
And I think, I think for, for thisconversation, I think we need to
start with Well, first of all, why,why would people be infant baptism,
infant baptist in, in general?
Right.
What's, what's the argument?
What's the argumentation?
Right.
What kind of verses do they go to?
And what's the
Pastor Eric (03:11):
reasoning?
And, and I will say this too, as we,as we get into this this has been
a fiery debate over the centuries.
And to the point where you know, there,there was persecution over what were known
as Anabaptists back in under Zwingli's.
It was just a fascinating story aboutZwingli's Bible study group and,
and how he ends up drowning some ofthem because they, they confessed,
(03:33):
they, they, they turned away frompato baptism into believer's baptism.
They drowned them because they,they, they were holding to believers
baptism and rejecting infant baptism.
And this became a massive persecution.
And so those who were holding a believer'sbaptism were being drowned by their
reformed brothers in Christ and beingburned to death by the Catholic church.
(03:55):
And there's been a lot of.
Of persecution that way.
Just, just in terms of where thishas come from and there's a lot of
history there, but, but nowadays thereisn't the same kind of war, right?
between the Pedos and thecredos that there was.
Now, now there, there's therethere's comradery there, there's an
(04:15):
understanding of, of, of essential things.
And, and so I've got brothers I love.
Who are, who are Pedobaptists.
And so it's, you know, thetone of everything has changed.
But it's still important.
It's still important.
And and so why are we not Faith InfantBaptist Church what do you think Shiloh?
(04:36):
Why, why not?
Well,
Shiloh Noorthoek (04:38):
Like I said before, in order to answer that question, you
have to, you have to understand what theargument of the, the Infant Baptist is.
You can't just start by saying we believein Believers Baptism because we always
have believed in Believers Baptism.
And that's just the way it is, right?
You have to understand the, the argument.
And so the, the infant Baptistargument begins with a conflation
(05:02):
of baptism with circumcision.
And there's a sense in which thechurch has the responsibility of
initiating their children into
Pastor Eric (05:17):
the covenant.
Okay.
So this is going backto Abrahamic covenant.
Where Abraham is commanded, andhe's given the promise, so, so,
interestingly, it's faith first 15.
6, Abraham believes he'scoming from righteousness.
And then you have this command forcircumcision, those who are brought into
this covenant under the Abrahamic covenantand that defines those who are associated
(05:43):
with Abraham and then later we have theMosaic covenant that is given to, to,
to further define who these people are.
Right.
But it is circumcision that,that is the, the sign of that
covenant made with Abraham.
And so what you're saying is thatwhen we come to the New Testament,
(06:03):
baptism is seen in, in the, in the PatoBaptist, the infant Baptist circles
as a replacement of circumcision.
Is that, is that what you're saying?
Shiloh Noorthoek (06:15):
Right.
And because, because it's a replacementof circumcision and because baptism.
Performs the same function inthat it's a sign of that covenant,
it needs to be Given in the same setof circumstances that circumcision was
right, which was I mean We know eighthday even Jesus was circumcised on the
(06:38):
eighth day according to the Mosaicor the Abrahamic Covenant, right?
and so Just as Jesus was,just as all these infants were
in the, that are Israelites.
So we need to be baptizinginfants in this in the same way.
Pastor Eric (06:53):
Right.
Circumcision was a sign thatyou belonged to the, to the to
Abraham in part of that covenant.
It was a sign, didn't guaranteethat you were because it
didn't save, but it was a sign.
In believers baptism, we havethe same kind of thing happening.
It is a sign, it does not save,it does not guarantee that your
(07:15):
profession is real, but it is a sign.
Right.
And so and I think that's importantto make that, that, that statement.
The Bible does commandthat we are to be baptized.
And it is a sign.
It is a statement that you are making.
To you know, in front of God and witnessesthat you have chosen to follow Christ.
(07:38):
From
Shiloh Noorthoek (07:38):
a Believer's Baptist standpoint.
From a Believer's Baptist standpoint.
We would also agree that it
Pastor Eric (07:43):
is, that it is a sin.
That's what I'm saying.
Right.
So we're, we're gonna agree there.
And I, I just want to say like, asFaith Baptists, this is a big deal.
Right.
We're raised to new lifeand baptism itself becomes
a picture, a symbol of that.
And it is something that is commanded somethat Jesus himself did when he went down
into that water and he came out of it.
(08:05):
It is, this is more than just ceremony.
It is more than just.
You know, some kind of Jewishholdover, because I've heard some
people say that this is what weare called to do is to be baptized.
So that brings other questions.
Well, if it is a sign.
Like circumcision was a sign.
Circumcision was given to, inthe eighth day, like you said.
(08:26):
Right.
So it was given to infants.
Why doesn't, why don't we do thatwith with, with the, you know,
the, the sign in the new covenant?
Shiloh Noorthoek (08:34):
Right.
And if you're an infant Baptist,you say, well, there is no reason.
And in fact, we should.
And, and they even wouldsay that there's, there's
corroboration of that in scripture.
I mean, maybe not explicitly,but you see in, you know, act 16,
for example, where In Philippi,1615, the, the whole household
Pastor Eric (08:59):
is baptized.
Oh yeah, right, so the whole householdis baptized, which would include infants.
Where,
Shiloh Noorthoek (09:03):
where Lydia is, when Lydia is saved, after Paul
preaches to her, and she, she andher whole household are baptized.
Right.
And that's just an example ofthis happening here, where once
she's in that covenant, right,her, her family joins her.
Right as it were.
And then, you know, otherpassages are the same.
(09:24):
And then one Corinthians seven14 where the, the unbelieving
Pastor Eric (09:28):
wife sanctifies, the unbelieving husband is sanctified.
I got right here, right Unbelieving.
The husband is sanctified throughhis wife and the unbelieving wife
is sanctified through her believinghusband for otherwise your children
are unclean, but now they are holy.
Shiloh Noorthoek (09:41):
You have.
not only this, not only do you havethe basis, the theological construction
for the circumcision being taken outof baptism, but you also on the face
of it seem to have some corroboration,some support for it in scripture, at
least from an infant Baptist position.
We would say that this, thissupports that we should be baptizing
Pastor Eric (10:01):
infants.
Okay.
This is, this is where thisbecomes a major, major separation
in, in understanding, and thisis where we end up going all over
the place in scripture, right?
Because what, what we end up doing iswe, we bring this continuity from the
(10:22):
old Testament to the new and, and, andin order to remain that continuity, you
end up doing, bring that everywhere.
So if, so very simply, if, if infant.
If, if, if baptism replacescircumcision, then you have to say
that the church replaces Israel, right?
Shiloh Noorthoek (10:39):
Or, yeah, they, they, they have the same, they,
they are the same entity in, in some
Pastor Eric (10:45):
way.
Because if, if baptism, if, ifcircumcision itself was a sign
of those who belong to Israel,
then if we're going to drain that, bringthat same continuity or correlation
across to the New Testament, we have tosay that the church is that, that Israel,
and if the church is that Israel, thenthe sign of that covent is baptism.
(11:07):
And if the sign of the covenantis baptism, then you then, then,
then, then you have to followthose commands, like, you know,
where it's applied to the infant.
You have strong correlation.
You
Shiloh Noorthoek (11:16):
have the situation where there's nothing different between
the two, at least in their significanceor meaning, other than the only
difference is the external ceremony.
So, we're, instead of circumcising,we're just sprinkling or
dunking infants, you know.
So, so it's the same thing, it's just done
Pastor Eric (11:36):
differently now.
Right, so what's wrong with that?
Shiloh Noorthoek (11:39):
Well, well like you said, I think it ultimately,
He's an issue of continuity, right?
The entire argument depends on Israeland the church being synonymous.
In the sense that baptism can becorrelated exactly with circumcision.
And vice versa.
And that assumes that the Israeland the church are the same entity.
(11:59):
Right.
So it's a, but, but we would asbelievers of baptism say, Baptists say
that there is a, Discontinuity betweenbetween Israel and the church in some
ways right and and thus since there's adiscontinuity between Israel the church,
there's also a discontinuity betweenor, sorry, circumcision and baptism.
(12:20):
They, they're not the same thing.
Right.
Pastor Eric (12:22):
They, they aren't the same covenant in terms of mosaic law, right?
The mosaic law has been fulfilled inChrist and we have a new covenant.
And in that new covenantthere's, a new sign.
So like there's, well, wherethere's, where there's continuity,
I guess this is what I'm saying.
There's continuity because they'reboth signs, but there's discontinuity
(12:43):
in that they're not the same thing.
Right.
And I think that's what you're saying.
That's the key point that you, when youtry to make a hard line continuity between
everything you end up you end up sort ofdoing away with with all of the, like,
like Israel, for example, and variousother types that are in the Old Testament.
So,
Shiloh Noorthoek (13:03):
so like when you're talking about when we, when we started
discussing this for the first time,we thought it was just a simple
discussion of like believers baptism.
You know, every time you seethat believers are baptized.
You know, after believing right inscripture, I mean, you can go to acts
eight so many passages, even Matthew28, but you, you don't understand that
it actually begins with, with yourperception of Israel in the church.
(13:25):
Ecclesiology is primary.
Yeah, premier,
Pastor Eric (13:28):
premier in this, it's right.
It's a discussion, it's a discussion ofthe Israel's Israel's role in the church's
role in the distinctions that are there.
And and this is the problem.
So it becomes an issue of what hasclassically been called the covenantalism
versus dispensationalism, right?
And so you have the covenantalistsand I don't, we don't need to get into
(13:50):
all of that, but it is a fascinatingstudy of, of, of, you know, the
theological covenants and all of this.
But.
In covenantal wisdom, they would, theywould carry through these covenants into
the, into the New Testament in, in a waythat that tries to hold it consistently.
And so there's a strongcontinuity in dispensationalism.
(14:15):
You have a, a like, like a massivediscontinuity where no, the
church has not replaced Israel.
And and as such.
You end up in classic dispensationalism,creating What has been, which is what
dispensationalists have been accused ofyou end up creating two peoples of God.
Right.
Right?
Like two plans of salvation.
(14:36):
Israel had their own plan in theOld Testament under the Mosaic Law.
Then, the, the, the NewCovenant has a new plan.
And so Israel is their own people of God.
The church is their own people of God.
Israel had their own plan of salvation.
The church has theirown plan of salvation.
Classical dispensationalism.
Classical dispensationalism,
Shiloh Noorthoek (14:53):
yeah.
Divides and makes two peoples of God.
Right.
It's just, you know,
Pastor Eric (14:56):
Right.
And, and so that's, that, that's again,back to this continuity discounting.
So, so there's a strong, either strongcontinuity with the covenantalists
or this strong discontinuity withthe dispensationalists in the past.
Right.
And so this has been, this has beenthe major issue and this has been the
accusation from the covenantalistsagainst the dispensationalists.
(15:16):
And I think it'sSchofield's reference Bible.
They there's a note in there where,where they even word it in such a way.
It sounds like they'resaying there are two.
peoples of God or two plans of salvation.
Right.
And I think that the, the accusationfrom the covenantalist to the
dispensationalist is has been,you know, it's been true, right?
Because if you're going to make, ifyou're going to be a dispensationalist and
(15:38):
you're going to make the two peoples ofGod and two plans of salvation, whether
you intend to or not, that, that ifyou're going to be overly discontinued.
Kind of news,
Shiloh Noorthoek (15:46):
you end up doing that, right?
You end up splitting up the old NewTestament, which in a way that the
scriptures itself doesn't do right?
Paul actually explains, heexplains what the church is.
He says in Romans 1117, that, butif some of the branches were broken
off, that is, some of the Jews thatare unbelieving were broken off.
(16:07):
And you being a wild olive,were, were grafted in.
Among them, it became partakerwith them and of the rich,
rich root of the olive tree.
And then there's an adadmonition not to boast.
Right?
Right.
But the point is, the point is is thatunbelieving Jews were broken off and
believing gentiles were grafted in.
And so there's, it's not that thechurch has replaced Israel so much
(16:28):
as it is the church has joined
Pastor Eric (16:31):
with.
Yeah.
And so there's continuity.
So there is continuity.
Right.
And there's discontinuity.
Right.
And that's really the key to all of this.
is being able to understand whatwhat, what is you know, what we
hold to as continuity between thechurch and Israel, because there is.
Because we've been grafted in and,and, and, and so we are brought into
(16:54):
the promise of Abraham, are we not?
Abraham has promised, the seedpromise of Abraham, that all the
nations of the earth would be blessed.
It's right there in the Genesis 15through 17, it is a promise to the
seed of Abraham and to the nations.
But, but it hasn't been fulfilled.
Right.
It hasn't, it was partially fulfilled,but then Israel was unfaithful and
(17:18):
you never had the kind of descriptionsof of what is portrayed of Christ
when he comes and he rules andreigns where he finally and fully.
Brings us into that promise.
Shiloh Noorthoek (17:27):
So full, full continuity completely obliterates that.
Right, right.
You're, you're unable, you're unableto make the distinction between,
between Israel and the church.
And so the promises to Israel in theOld Testament, particularly the ones
of, of land, have been co opted in somerespects to, to apply to the church.
Right.
And it's impossible to do that.
(17:47):
Without making it some spiritual aspect.
And, and so, you, you end up having tochange what scripture is saying there.
So instead of land promises thatare actually defined geographically
in the Old Testament, you have somesort of, well, we're going to take
dominion over the earth kind of thing.
Some explanation that doesn'ttake into account the actual
Pastor Eric (18:07):
promises, right?
And so this becomes an issue of overspiritualizing, which is very, very,
very, very common in the paedal Baptist,Baptist campus, as much as I love,
you know my brothers that are there.
This is the issue.
they tend to in order to maintainthat strong continuity, they
have to spiritualize thingsthat are more than spiritual.
(18:30):
And that's the real issue.
You, like, this is, this is platonic thisdualism , where you're not holding in
balance the fact that there are spiritualpromises that have physical realities.
And so, yes we are, in a sense,a spiritual Israel, but there
(18:51):
is also a physical Israel.
And so, there is continuity ina spiritual sense, but there is
discontinuity in a physical sense.
Shiloh Noorthoek (19:01):
And
this dicontinuity
is,, Found in the the new covenant.
Yeah, that's that's where the essence ofit is And this is also where it where it
applies to baptism where we get all thisall these scattered things the continuity
discontinuity the Abrahamic blessingpromises to to him and then you know,
these land promises Israel in the church,you know all these confusing things They
(19:23):
come together when you think about whenyou're thinking about the new covenant.
What is the new covenant, right?
And so I guess we'llstart in Jeremiah, right?
I mean, what, what is the new covenant?
I mean, you can answer that question.
The new heart.
That's a new heart.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
And then how do you getinto the new covenant?
And now, now you're not just talking aboutsome promise that is physical, right?
(19:46):
Or, you know, Abraham, a covenant, whichwas the promise to all the earth, right?
That was taken, that was signifiedby physical means, right?
Circumcision is physical, right?
Now.
Now you're talking about aspiritual transformation.
Yeah.
In the sense that the newcovenant, or getting into the new
(20:06):
covenant is a spiritual change.
Yeah, that's right.
And now we're justtalking about the gospel
Pastor Eric (20:10):
here.
Right.
So, if you go back to circumcision,you have this promise to Abraham that
in your seed all the nations
of the earth would be blessed.
And the sign of that promise Iscircumcision, which is, I mean, I don't
(20:33):
want to be crass, but we're talking aboutthe very source of the seed, the literal
physical seed which is why that sign wasplaced in that particular location on
the male body, you know, because it is apicture of where that seeds come because
we're going all the way back to Genesis,Genesis three 15, where the seed would
come, it would crush the serpent's head.
(20:54):
And then we narrow in while it's a seed.
Because you see this, you see, like inGenesis four Eve thinks, well, you know,
I've, I've gotten a man of the Lord.
She thinks that Cain isthat promised one, I think.
Right.
But then you, you, as you go furtheralong, you're, you go into Abraham,
it narrows in here's the seed is, issomebody who is a descendant of Abraham
(21:16):
and then it just narrows in furtheras you get through the old Testament.
But the point is the sign.
Is that those who are the sign ofcircumcision is, is, is pointing
to this seed promise, right?
Shiloh Noorthoek (21:32):
Who will come about, but the seed of the woman, right.
Right.
And, and you know, that, that,that seed is going to come out
of out of descendants of Abraham.
Yeah.
Right.
And so that's why we have circumcision,but now who is that seed, right?
It's Jesus.
Jesus
Pastor Eric (21:46):
fulfilled circumcision, right?
He is the seed.
that was promised.
And because Jesus fulfilled it,there is a new covenant that
has been created in his blood.
Right.
Therefore, there is a new sign.
And so there is a discontinuity.
Yes.
There's continuity in that there isa sign, but there is discontinuity
(22:09):
in that Christ fulfilled thatsign and now he has created a
new sign in, in where baptism is.
And this is why we,
Shiloh Noorthoek (22:19):
dunk.
And this is where it gets all theway back to why faith Baptist?
Why faith Baptist?
Why Baptist?
Why not infant Baptist?
Because baptism is the sign of the
Pastor Eric (22:28):
it is the sign that you have.
You've been buried with Christ throughthe water and there's pictures of
water , new created reality butyou've been buried with Christ and
you have been raised to new life.
So you end up with what youwere saying, Jeremiah, this new.
Heart, this new created reality,baptism is a sign that says, I
(22:54):
belong to the one who fulfilled theseed promise given to to, to Eve.
And this is,
Shiloh Noorthoek (23:01):
and this is why believers, the ones, only the ones who
have been actually put into the covenantwho have actually received the new
heart that comes from the new covenant.
They are the only ones who can, who canproperly have the sign of the covenant.
And this is why baptism should only beadministered to believers and not infants.
Because they can't, they'renot, our children aren't
(23:24):
included in the new covenant.
The way is narrow that leads to life.
And there are few who find it.
And it's, it's so narrow thatonly, One person can pass at a
Pastor Eric (23:34):
time, you know?
Right.
Those who, who believe.
Right.
And it also stresses the importance,the absolute vital importance of just
like in the Old Testament, again,continuity to the Old Testament, it
was necessary that if you were part ofthat seed promise to Abraham, a people
of God as a, as a matter of obedience,that you as as a male were circumcised
(24:00):
in the New Testament, it is necessary.
that you demonstrate that youhave been brought into this
new life by being baptized.
And by necessary, Idon't mean it saves you.
I mean that it is a, it is an evidence.
You belong to Christ.
It is this new reality thatyou are professing and you
(24:23):
are confessing as a believer.
And and for you to to not takethat step of baptism is, is it's
to miss the, the, the point of
all of what has been fulfilled inChrist, and to lack that desire
to then follow him in obedience.
(24:46):
That's, I don't understand why youwouldn't obey him in that way, and
yet say that I have a new heart.
I mean, we're, by being
Shiloh Noorthoek (24:56):
baptized, we're putting ourselves in the same category.
We're saying, we're saying toeveryone, I belong to the new covenant.
I belong to Christ.
Right.
And, and to not do thatis to To exemplify a,
Pastor Eric (25:15):
a shame or to picture yourself as an outsider, right?
Shiloh Noorthoek (25:19):
You know, either, either you're ashamed of Christ
or you're just not interested inbecoming part of this covenant or
Pastor Eric (25:28):
signifying that you are part of the covenant.
It's almost like you're saying that Iprefer to be identified as an outsider.
So I don't want to, I don'twant to take on the sign.
It doesn't make sense.
So, so people would get caught up in this.
Well, it's.
You know, baptism doesn't save you.
No, baptism doesn't save you.
But if you're saved, why wouldn't youwant to identify yourself with this sign?
(25:50):
Why wouldn't you want to say, to,to, you know, You know, to Christ
and to the world, I belong to Jesus.
I have been buried with him.
I have been raised in new life.
I have received that spiritof living water and it flows
Shiloh Noorthoek (26:04):
through me.
And not only have we received thoseblessings, but we also identify with
ourselves, with the ones who are, whoare expectantly waiting for Christ
to return to establish his kingdom.
Right.
I mean, we're.
We're the ones who, who watch for hisreturn, who aren't, who aren't sleeping.
We're of the day, not of the night,right, as Thessalonians says.
And, and those, those people are the onesto whom God has promised a kingdom to rule
(26:29):
and reign with Christ forever and ever.
Yeah.
And that's, that's whatit means to be baptized.
Yeah, I want to, I wantto identify with that.
To bring ourselves into that group, tobe the ones who say, oh, We, along with
everyone else in this group, we love God.
We love God.
We love Christ, and we'rewaiting for him to return.
He's our Savior.
He's our everything, andthat's what that's what baptism
Pastor Eric (26:46):
signifies.
It's the same in the OldTestament, the continuity.
If you're circumcised, youbelong to the people of God.
In the New Testament, if you're baptized,you belong to the people of God.
That's what you're saying.
That's a sign.
That's a statement you're making.
Now, infant baptism, I think,destroys that entire picture.
(27:07):
It makes it about, well, it makes, it, it,it's almost like you're going back to the
old covenant and, not seeing how it isfulfilled in Christ, how he is that seed.
And I'm not saying that they do that.
I'm not saying that theydeny that Christ fulfills it.
Of course, they say allis yes and amen in Christ.
(27:27):
I know that's like a big thingwith infant baptism millennials,
like Jesus fulfills everything.
Of course he does.
They're not denying that.
But I think, I think in the picture, inthe symbol, you end up putting us into
the strong, strong continuity into oldTestament that you, dare I say I think it
has an undermining effect to the gospeland to the motivation of the believer.
(27:53):
This is why
Shiloh Noorthoek (27:54):
we're Faith Baptists.
Pastor Eric (27:55):
Yeah, this is why we're Faith Baptists.
It is a continuity discontinuity issue.
And what that means is you justneed to go to the Bible and you need
to apply a proper hermeneutics tounderstand what it is saying in context.
Don't try to to over spiritualize things,apply a, a hermeneutic that is consistent
(28:18):
between the Old and the New Testament.
And I think that you end upwith baptism is a sign that
you have been saved by faith.
Shiloh Noorthoek (28:26):
Baptism is, the reason we're believers in baptism, like the
core, I think you said it, the coreis because we want to be identified.
Yeah.
We want to be identified with Christ.
Right.
And, and the same thing, likeit's the same thing with,
With our faithfulness, right?
The baptism is just another way wecan exhibit faithfulness to Christ.
(28:46):
He commands it.
We want to obey him.
And I think that's, that's,that's the essence of it.
That's the core.
That's the essence.
That's what we want to take away.
Pastor Eric (28:53):
Why wouldn't you want to do that?
All right, cool.
Good.
Excellent.
Again, this is a ministryof Faith Baptist Church.
And just a reminder.
We do have Sunday services, 10 30.
(29:16):
Okay.
9.
30 Sunday school and then 6 o'clock p.
m.
we do our Sunday evening
service.
So you're welcome to come and I hope thatyou find this helpful until next time
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