January 8, 2024 • 60 mins
On this week's episode, local mom Amy joins to talk about child sexual abuse -- what to know, how to prevent it, and the Mama Bear Effect.
SHOW NOTES: The Mama Bear Effect MOSAC - Mothers of Sexually Abused Children RAINN - Child Sexual Abuse CDC Fast Facts: Child Sexual Abuse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassy (00:07):
Hi, and welcome to the south central PA mom, Fireflies, and Whoopee Pie podcast, where
we discuss motherhood, local events, andeverything in between right here in south
central PA.
So sit back, grab a coffee a while, and settle
in for the show.
(00:27):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode of Firefliesand Whoopee Pie.
This week we have Amy, another local mom whois here to talk to us about a very important
topic.
Amy, thank you for being with us today.
Amy (00:41):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
Cassy (00:44):
So you are here to talk about the mama bear effect.
Can you tell me a little bit about what thatis?
Amy (00:51):
Absolutely. The Mama Bear effect is a 501 c three nonprofit for child sexual abuse
awareness and prevention.
So the mission is to make abuse prevention
education accessible and geared towardfamilies and caregivers.
Adrian Simeon founded the mama Bear effect inthe fall of 2012.
(01:15):
She lives in Massachusetts with her husbandand four children.
She worked in marketing and sales until havingher first child.
It was after reading one too many storiesabout a child being sexually abused that
Adrienne felt a calling to create change andencourage people to protect children from
being sexually abused.
Cassy (01:36):
Now, I think that a lot of people have this mindset that this is something really
rare and that it only happens to other people.
Right?
Amy (01:47):
Yeah. It would never happen in our family.
Cassy (01:50):
But that's not even remotely true.
Amy (01:53):
No, not even close.
Not even close.
So the definition of child sexual abuse is anysexual activity between an adult and a child
is sexual abuse.
Sexual abuse does not have to involve
penetration, force, pain, or even touching.
(02:15):
If an adult engages in any sexual behavior,
looking, showing anything with a child to meetthe adult's interest, that's sexual abuse.
Cassy (02:26):
Right.
So, like, if your kid, let's say you have, I
don't know, a ten year old, and they go to afriend's house, and the friend's dad is like,
hey, come look at this playboy with me, right?That is an example of sexual abuse.
Amy (02:39):
Yes. So, statistics range from study to study, but they estimate that one in ten
children are affected by sexual abuse topossibly as many as one in four girls and one
in six boys.
So that's a huge percentage of our children.
(03:04):
And 75% of these victims will not tell for atleast a year, if ever.
So it's not something largely talked about.
Half of the victims will wait at least five
years before telling.
And again, some never disclose.
(03:24):
The majority of abuse is not reported to theauthorities.
So even when Adrian was reading all thesestories, that was just the tip of the iceberg.
We're not hearing most of the stories.
Cassy (03:39):
Well, kids I would imagine are experiencing a lot of the same emotions that
adults do.
Like this guilt, like, this is my fault.
I should have said this differently or donethis differently, or shame.
If I tell the people this, then someone'sgoing to think less of me or they're going to
blame me.
So stay quiet, right?
Amy (03:59):
Yeah, exactly.
I thought it would never happen in our family.
It happened to me by my brother when I was achild, and I tried to tell my mom and was met
with just frantic, not wanting to hear it,like, just stop talking.
(04:25):
And so I thought, okay, I'm never bringingthat up again.
And I was never protected from it.
It was ongoing.
So having gone through that, I thought I wasdoing everything right.
I told my husband even before we got married,if we ever have kids, they're never going to
(04:48):
be left alone.
With my brother.
I was really vigilant about letting mychildren go to other people's homes, even if
we knew them, because maybe you know themother really well, but who's to say there's a
brother or a cousin or an uncle or whomever.
(05:11):
So I didn't really let her do playdates and
sleepovers.
They had to come here.
I thought I was being really protective.
She was actually sexually abused by my own
father when she was ten years old.
(05:35):
I never in a million years thought I had to
protect her from him.
We vacationed with them every year.
It happened on a vacation, but she didn't tellus.
I knew that something had changed prior tothat, she was the most loving, laid back,
(06:00):
huggy, just fabulous, pleasant child.
And I noticed right away that something was
different.
She was angry and sullen and didn't want to be
touched.
And I kept asking people for help, the
pediatrician, other moms, anyone and everyone.
(06:22):
And everyone kept saying, oh, she's just going
through puberty early.
This is normal.
And I would do anything to go back in time andnot stop until I got an answer.
(06:45):
She went ten years and didn't tell us.
And then even the way it happened was just a
bizarre, the perfect storm that it came out.
And then, even then, she said she'd never tell
us who, but we pressed and we pressed and gother to tell us.
(07:06):
And then after that, it came out that he haddone it also to my niece.
So it can happen in any family, and it's notalways who you think it is.
So my daughter and I wish I could say thatshe's doing really well.
(07:33):
She's changed forever and it's a hard road.
And also she will tell you that she was very
close with my mom and we just assumed that shewould believe her.
(07:56):
Like, children don't make this stuff up.
Actually, that's another statistic.
It's less than 1% of disclosures turn out tobe false, that a child just made it up less
than 1%.
(08:16):
So my mom did not believe her.
And she says that was even worse than theabuse.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's destroyed our family for sure.
Everything's different.
(08:38):
But my daughter asked, because, of course, I
reached out to her to see what she'scomfortable with me sharing, and she asked me
to stress the importance that it could beanyone and that people close to you have more
of an opportunity.
(09:00):
She said parents need to make sure kids feel
safe telling them something happened.
If it's a grandparent or a close family
member, that can make it feel impossible forthe child to tell anyone due to fear of not
being believed and risk of punishment if theirparents don't believe them, she said, I felt
(09:21):
like there was a risk of everyone gettingupset with me and I didn't know if I would be
expected to confront him.
I knew he would lie and try to make it look
like I was exaggerating or making it up.
It felt safer to pretend like nothing happened
and be really guarded around him.
I had no idea what would happen if I told you.
(09:44):
And I kept running through different scenariosin my head.
They all seemed bad.
And you have to remember, a ten year old
doesn't have even the words necessarily to saywhat happened.
Cassy (10:03):
Right.
Amy (10:04):
Exactly. And that's what I want to talk about today.
Yeah.
My niece was also abused by my father.
And she told me that she used to rehearse whatshe would say to her mom, but then she would
start second guessing herself and wonder ifshe'd imagined the whole thing.
(10:24):
And she felt like she was going crazy becauseshe thought, grandfathers don't do this.
So in her mind, she convinced herself that shewas making it up, that she was going crazy.
And my heart just breaks.
She was also ten when it happened to her.
I just can't imagine just living with that.
Cassy (10:52):
Well, it's heartbreaking, I mean, to hear about, and I'm so sorry that your family
has had to experience this.
Amy (11:00):
Thank you.
Cassy (11:04):
Well, related to that, the people who were the perpetrators, both for you and for
your daughter and your niece, were people youknew, people you thought you could trust.
Amy (11:18):
Exactly.
40% of abusers are immediate or extended
family members of the victim.
50% know their victims and are in a position
of trust with not only the victim but thefamily, 40% are older.
(11:41):
Children, siblings, cousins, friends,neighbors.
It's crazy because when I started sharing whathad happened to our family, so many women
shared their story with me, and a lot of themsaid, nobody knows this, or only my husband
(12:04):
knows this, or my husband doesn't know this.
And the stories were of neighbors and friends
and people that they knew.
Cousins.
Yeah.
Cassy (12:24):
Well, and you don't want to talk about it because in addition to the psychological
effects of being a victim, it's also thiscultural mindset that, thankfully, it's
changing slowly, but there's still so much of,well, what did you do to bring it on?
Amy (12:46):
Right?
Cassy (12:46):
Or why didn't you run away? Or why didn't you fight back?
Or why didn't you say something?Or even more that what they did isn't that
bad?
Amy (12:57):
Exactly. Yeah. Yes.
Cassy (13:03):
It's even worse if this person is in a position of trust and respect and authority in
the community, or if they are know, well knownor looked up know.
You think of Chanel Miller, which is thecollege student who was assaulted by Brock
(13:23):
Turner, and what was the judge's words?That he didn't want to give him too harsh a
sentence because it would ruin a promisingyoung man's like, if the abuser is anyone in
any kind of position of authority, then that'swhat people are going to say.
We can't ruin this person's life.
(13:43):
Why are you trying to ruin this person's life?
Amy (13:45):
And parents will even cover it up when one of their children does it to another of
their children.
I know three families that the brother abused
the daughter or the sister, and then theparents, they know, they believe it, but they
(14:07):
make these victims agree to secrecy becausethey don't want their child life to be ruined.
They just want to sweep it under the rug.
Cassy (14:22):
I don't want to diminish what that must be like for parent, because you and I are both
moms, and I don't know how I would feel if oneof my kids had abused someone.
But the thing is that you're not helping thatchild, you're not helping their future if you
(14:43):
don't tackle what happened.
Because then they are going to become an adult
who thinks that this is acceptable.
Amy (14:50):
Absolutely.
It just perpetuates abuse in general.
We can't break the cycle.
It just keeps going.
The majority of people who exploit childrenthrough sexual materials, like you were
(15:11):
saying, come look at this magazine with me,are parents.
Parents are doing this.
So as far as who are the victims?
The average age for reported sexual abuse, I'mgoing to have you guess.
How many years old do you think the averageage is for reported sexual abuse?
Cassy (15:35):
When it happens or when they report when it happens.
That's.
I would completely have to.
Amy (15:46):
I don't.
Eight, nine years old.
Yeah.
And that's the average.
So it can be much younger, it can be mucholder.
Cassy (15:57):
And one thing that I think is, I think, really important to remember is that even
though girls are more likely, it's not justgirls.
If you're a mom of boys, this is somethingthat affects you, too.
Amy (16:12):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. 20% of children at least, will receive a
sexual solicitation via the Internet.
So there's a lot of awareness for sexual
(16:33):
assault and rape on college campuses, which isawesome, and that's important.
But the reality is children face sexual abuseat a much higher rate.
And yet support for prevention, for awareness,for appropriate resources, for the education
of adults and children is minimal.
Cassy (16:55):
That's what the mama bear effect helps to do.
Amy (16:57):
Right.
I had no idea that the mama bear effect
existed.
After my daughter's disclosure, I went to the
library and got every book there was on sexualassault, so I could understand the abuser's
(17:17):
thought process as much as possible, so Icould understand what my daughter was going
through.
And I was amazed at what's out there, how much
reading could be done.
But nobody knows the statistics.
Nobody knows that this material is out there.
So I love that the mama bear effect is trying
(17:41):
to bring this to light.
Cassy (17:46):
And you mentioned understanding the abusers.
So what is it?Why does someone do this?
Amy (17:54):
They don't know.
Some have been abused themselves, but some
have not.
There's no conclusive anything on that.
Cassy (18:11):
Obviously, this is just speculation, but I would imagine that part of it is that a
child is someone that you can easily control.
Amy (18:18):
Absolutely.
Cassy (18:19):
And manipulate.
You can manipulate a nine year old a whole lot
easier than you can manipulate a 19 year old.
Not that a 19 year old can't be manipulated,
like grooming is the thing, but it's a loteasier for a nine year old or a six year old
to be manipulated and then controlled, right?
Amy (18:40):
Yeah.
Cassy (18:41):
And even scared, again, a 19 year old, of course, you can still scare them, but it's
a lot easier to tell a seven year old, hey, ifyou tell anyone this, I'm going to go do blah
blah blah to your mom and dad, and they'regoing to believe you, right?
Amy (18:58):
Absolutely. Yes. Over 80% of children are abused within a home, either their own home or
the home of the perpetrator.
So I think we have an idea that this is
happening in dark alleys or in the playgroundin the middle of the night or something.
(19:20):
But like I said, over 80%.
It's in the abuser's home or it's in the
victim's home.
So, yeah, we don't just want to talk to our
children.
We also want to have conversations with other
adults to take steps to minimize the risk.
(19:40):
So a child's body safety education is never
put to the test to begin with.
As a family, we need to work together to
promote appropriate behaviors and set anexample of respectful relationships so kids
can know what it's supposed to look likebecause they don't know any different.
(20:01):
So this means not forcing affection.
I'm sure we're all guilty of it.
Of forcing our kids to hug aunt May or grandpaor whoever.
No. They can ask, but also tell your kid it'sokay to say, I'm not comfortable with that.
(20:24):
Can I give you a high five or findalternatives?
Cassy (20:28):
Yeah, I think that that's something that, for our generation, we were raised to
see that, oh, well, you're being rude if yousay no.
Amy (20:36):
Right?
Cassy (20:36):
But it's like, hey, saying, I don't want to give you a hug or I don't want to sit
in your lap.
It doesn't have to equal rudeness.
Hey, I don't want to give you a hug right now,but like you mentioned, hey, how about a high
five instead?
Amy (20:48):
Right?
Cassy (20:49):
It's not rude.
Amy (20:50):
No.
Cassy (20:52):
Children.
That they have control over their bodies.
Amy (20:54):
Exactly.
And we don't want to shield children from
talking about it, thinking, oh, it'll bedetrimental if we talk about it.
It's more detrimental if we don't.
We also want to shield children from
sexualized content.
(21:16):
Don't put your head in the sand and think, oh,
if I give them this tablet or whatever, thatthey're just going to watch cocoa melon.
Be mindful and be aware and shield them fromthe sexualized content so that they don't
(21:37):
think that that's normal.
We want to teach and promote privacy, like,
you deserve to have privacy when you'rechanging or when you're using the bathroom,
and have open conversations with kids aboutanything and everything so they can feel
(21:57):
comfortable talking to us.
Also calling out, and I wish I would have done
this when my kids were small, calling outsomeone, anyone, even if it's a relative, who
is not respecting your child's boundaries ordoing something that could harm a child.
(22:18):
A lot of times we think if it is our parentsor our siblings, that, oh, they're just having
fun.
But they might be refusing to respect our
boundaries.
So it's perfectly acceptable to limit or
modify or eliminate contact like I did with mybrother if he were to have an objection.
(22:47):
Like, you can't play behind this closed doorwith my daughter.
Well, that's a huge red flag.
A good, decent, loving person is going to
respect your boundaries and you shouldn't feellike you can't make the rules and make family
obey the rules.
Cassy (23:08):
Right.
And every time there's a red flag, it doesn't
mean that someone is an abuser, but you stillshould pay attention when there is one.
Amy (23:15):
Right.
Cassy (23:16):
And someone not being willing to obey your boundaries, that's a red flag.
Amy (23:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And like I said before, with going over to a
friend's house for a play date, other peoplemight be coming or going.
Like, you don't know who's in that house.
Are you on the same page about body safety?
Do they not allow playing behind closed doors?What kind of access do they have to the
(23:49):
Internet?And then there's the oodles and oodles of
organized activities that our kids go to, beit sports or faith based or camps or whatever.
Don't be afraid to ask them questions.
Say, what do you do to prioritize safety?
(24:09):
Are children ever permitted to be alone one onone with an adult?
Why does that happen?Or with another child?
Don't forget that a good percentage of abuseis happening from other children when children
are left alone one to one.
(24:32):
So the mama bear effect, they have something
called rock the talk.
It's on their website and it's a resource for
parents to learn how to talk to kids of allages.
She has one for babies, for toddlers, forpreschoolers, like all the way up for
teenagers of just how to talk to your kidsabout body safety.
(24:57):
We talked earlier about how survivors havesaid, I did not have the words to tell.
That was totally my experience.
When I talk to my mom, I'm just spitting out
different things that probably didn't makesense.
I didn't know what to say.
I didn't have the vocabulary or just the
(25:21):
maturity to explain what was happening.
So there is a big difference between a secret
and a surprise.
Can I ask you that?
I'm sorry, I'm putting you on the spot withall these questions.
What do you think the difference between asecret and a surprise?
Cassy (25:44):
Well, I think that it would be all in the way that you are framing it.
A surprise is something that we're not goingto tell mom because her birthday is coming up,
but she's going to find out two weeks.
Whereas the secret is something we don't want
her to ever find out, right?
Amy (26:00):
Yes. You hit it on the head.
I had never thought about this before, but if
I had it to do it over again, I would be a nosecret.
Family secrets are usually not positive and noone else will ever know.
Like you said, secrets are really only formarried couples and maybe professional
(26:25):
counselors.
They serve no purpose in a child's life.
A surprise, however, is usually somethingpositive and everyone's going to know about it
at a specific point in time.
So those are for everyone.
So I wish I would have taught my kids thedifference very young and made it clear that
(26:48):
we don't have secrets.
No one should ask you to keep a secret.
I'm not going to keep secrets from you.
You're not going to keep secrets from me.
Surprises are great.
We can all go in on a surprise, but we just
don't have secrets in our family.
Cassy (27:05):
And I think that that's another part of what you just said.
The difference between secrets and surprises.
We can all go in in a surprise.
If we're having a surprise for mom, it's okayif Uncle Joey finds out, right?
You can help with the surprise.
Amy (27:18):
Yeah, and you can teach that through other things, too.
You're teaching them to respect themselves.
So even if it's something little know, Aunt
Jan gave you cookies before dinner and shesaid, let's keep this as our little secret.
(27:42):
Well, people might think that's totallyharmless, but if the child is learning to keep
secrets from their parents, that's not goingto end well.
The child should be able to come home and belike, aunt Jan broke the rules.
She gave me cookies and she told me to keep ita secret.
(28:04):
So then it's my job to go to Aunt Jan and say,hey, I love that the two of you have fun
together.
And I understand there's going to be special
things and it's not a big deal to have cookiesbefore dinner once in a while.
But don't call it a secret.
Don't ask my child to keep something from me.
There cannot be secrets because I'm her momand I'm in charge and I'm responsible for her.
(28:33):
Jan. Aunt Jan should be like, oh, my gosh,you're totally right.
That totally makes sense.
Thank you.
And if she's not, then there's something.
Cassy (28:46):
And what would you say? Because I feel like there, even still today,
is a lot of pushback to this kind of stuff.
Like, oh, it's not that big a deal.
Amy (28:53):
Right.
Cassy (28:55):
They know not to let anyone do whatever things to them.
Amy (29:01):
But that's how people groom.
That's how abusers groom.
It does start.
I'm not saying that everybody who gives a kid
a cookie and says, keep it a secret is anabuser, but that's how abusers do start to
groom.
They're going to test it.
They're going to see, will this child keepthis secret from their mom?
(29:23):
And then can I push it?And can I push it?
And can I push it?Right.
Cassy (29:27):
Like, start building that relationship to where exactly the child is.
Like, oh, this is my special friend.
Amy (29:35):
Right.
Cassy (29:35):
I don't want to get them in trouble because they're my special friend.
Amy (29:38):
Exactly.
And we want the other adults in our kids lives
to know that our kids are going to tell usstuff.
And again, they should be okay with that.
If they really love your child and want what's
best for your child.
(29:59):
Of course it's not realistic to plan to be
with your child every minute.
I have heard parents say, I'm homeschooling.
I won't let them do sports or whatever it maybe.
It's not realistic to plan to be with yourchild every minute.
(30:22):
So when your child is spending time alone withothers, the risk for abuse can increase,
whether it's camp or a playdate or asleepover.
So what we want to do is incorporate regularcheck ins with our children, and then it
normalizes the conversations.
So at a quiet time, bedtime, whenever you can
(30:45):
talk to your kid one on one, after they'vebeen alone with somebody, ask them open ended
questions.
How did you spend your time?
Did you do anything different with them attheir house than we do here?
What was the best part?What was the worst part?
Did everyone follow body safety rules?Did you ever feel uncomfortable?
(31:09):
And of course, you don't want to ask everysingle question every single time, and you
kind of want to build that.
Start when they're tiny, tiny, tiny.
So it feels like a conversation and not aninterrogation.
And then they're going to be in the habit ofnot only talking to you, but of kind of
(31:35):
analyzing their time with other people.
And that's going to serve them well throughout
their life in relationships they have andmaking good choices just to kind of have a
check in and see.
Was that in my best interest?
Was I comfortable?Is that something I want in my life?
Cassy (32:02):
Right.
Because part of our job as parents is getting
our children ready to be adults.
Right?
Amy (32:10):
Exactly.
Cassy (32:11):
We can't never let them have independence.
Amy (32:15):
Exactly.
Cassy (32:17):
I can imagine it's going to be hard when you start out to have these
conversations, but eventually it gets easier.
Amy (32:24):
Right.
It's just what you do.
It's just normal.
Cassy (32:29):
And it doesn't have to be like an interrogation.
Amy (32:32):
Exactly.
Well, it shouldn't be.
Yeah.
Cassy (32:35):
Like, hey, you went to wrestling practice today.
How did it go?Oh, I had a great time.
Okay.
And you just kind of naturally work it into
the conversation.
Amy (32:46):
Right? Exactly. Yeah. So what does not work to
prevent children from sexual abuse is trustingpeople based solely on their reputation or
authority.
Like you talked about.
Know, people in these positions that we just.
(33:07):
Doctors.
Like, think about the doctor with thegymnastics team that everybody.
Cassy (33:16):
Larry. Larry Nasser.
Amy (33:17):
Yeah. It's just disgusting.
But people believe it because it's a doctor.
Right?So don't do that.
Don't dress everybody.
Don't assume that schools and programs
specifically for children are takingcomprehensive steps to.
Cassy (33:38):
Protect children or that just because someone is presenting themselves as this nice,
upstanding.
Oh, look, they go to church every Sunday or
they volunteer at my kids school.
Okay?
Those are great things.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that.
It doesn't mean anything.
Amy (33:58):
Yeah. And that's my father.
He's very.
He's very vain.
And he will brag about how he's never missed
church.
Now, looking back, of course, hindsight is
2020, but anyone who builds themselves up thatmuch, now I'm thinking, of course, what was he
(34:27):
hiding?What was he trying to convince himself and
everybody else what an upstanding man he is.
And he does.
He still goes to church every Sunday.
Another thing is, even if people pass their
(34:49):
background checks, remember that most abuse isnot reported.
A lot of abuse is not even disclosed.
But from there, very few people report it
because, again, they want to shield peoplefrom ruining their life or whatever.
(35:12):
So someone can have a long history of abusingpeople and still pass a background check.
So you can't rest assured in simply knowingthat the school or the camp or wherever has
done their background checks.
Also, I think when you and I were young, it
(35:36):
was the stranger danger.
And I think we are getting away from that.
I hope we are.
Cassy (35:44):
Yes, totally.
It was like growing up, it was stranger
danger.
And the notion of sexual abuse was for
children that I was taught, and I don't evenwant to say by my parents, this was just
culturally the way it was.
It was like the notion of, oh, yeah, the guy
(36:04):
who was like, oh, come with me to look for mylost puppy, Right.
Comes up to you at the park and says that thenyou don't go.
Amy (36:12):
Lure you into their car with their candy.
Cassy (36:17):
And you look back in retrospect, it's like that.
That's ridiculous.
It doesn't never happen, but it's like it
pretty much never happens.
Amy (36:25):
Right? Yeah, exactly.
90% of perpetrators are not strangers.
And we also want kids that if they are in a
bad position, that they should look for a copor not.
(36:46):
All strangers are dangerous.
Some of them can help you.
Cassy (36:52):
I saw a phrase that I don't remember where I saw it, so I'm not taking credit.
I'm a mom, so my brain is just like a sievemost of the time.
It just kind of stuff disappears.
But it's what I use now, and it's tricky
people, and that's what I try to tell my kids.
(37:14):
If you're in trouble, go ask an adult.
A tricky person is the type of person thatwill go ask a kid for help as an example.
Amy (37:21):
Right.
Cassy (37:22):
There is no circumstance in which an adult should be asking a child for help.
Exactly like tricky people.
That's you need to worry about.
But if you're in trouble and you feeluncomfortable, absolutely find your closest
adult and ask them, because 99% of the timethey're going to help you.
Amy (37:39):
Right.
And that's another thing the mama bear effect
talks about is teaching your kids who they cantalk to and that that circle should be so
small, like, let them know if anything isgoing on.
And you don't want to come to me, go to thisperson that, you know, understands body safety
(38:06):
and the whole nine yards.
We don't want to tell them to go to any adult.
But, yeah, there should be at least one otherperson that they can go to if they're not
comfortable going to you for whatever reason.
Yeah, I like that.
Tricky people.
Cassy (38:27):
Yeah. There was this whole list of examples, but I remember it stood out because
I'm like, oh, my gosh, that makes so much moresense than the idea of stranger danger.
And I remember one of the biggest things thatthey talked about was adults asking children
for help or adults trying to be a child'sfriend.
(38:47):
I think it was a lot of stuff along thoselines, which are signs of grooming.
Amy (38:52):
Right.
Cassy (38:54):
Because adults are not friend with children.
Right.
Amy (38:57):
Yeah.
Cassy (38:58):
You're a 45 year old man or woman, which I think that's another thing that I'm
totally, like, just going off in left field.
But women can be abusers, too.
Amy (39:08):
They can.
Cassy (39:08):
I know they're not often rare.
It's not as often, but it's like, don't let
your guard down just because it's Aunt sue,right?
Amy (39:18):
Yeah.
Cassy (39:19):
If Aunt sue is acting weird and crossing boundaries and stuff, then still have
that red flag up.
Amy (39:26):
Right.
Cassy (39:27):
Anyway, about it.
Yeah, but it's like, no, you're a 45 year old
man.
There's no friendship with my nine year old.
Amy (39:35):
Right.
We need to teach our kids that it's not their
job to help adults.
It's never your job to help an adult.
Yeah.
So what does work?
We know being open and expecting others tobehave within our boundaries request what
(40:04):
policies are in place at camps.
Activities to eliminate one to one situations.
The one to one issue, I think, is the biggestthing anywhere that your kids go.
They should not be left alone with anotheradult or with another child.
(40:24):
One to one.
There is safety in numbers, and we know enough
that that should be everybody's policy.
If you take your kid to an activity and
they're.
No, you know, Bob takes the kids.
If they have to go to the bathroom, they haveto go with just Bob.
(40:45):
Well, no, they should have.
Something is wrong if they don't have policies
in place to eliminate one to one situations.
I mean, I know like some churches have, even
for their classrooms, they've put a window inevery door so anyone going by at any time can
(41:11):
look in.
We need to accept that the greatest risk to
children will come from those that they knowand that you know really well.
I know I say that over and over again, but Idon't think people know or maybe even believe
that 90% of abusers know their victims.
(41:38):
And we need to educate our children to
understand their body and the concept ofconsent and personal responsibility.
So I think the best defense is educating ourchildren.
There is a lot that we can educate the adultsin our circle to avoid ever putting children
(42:05):
in the situation in the first place.
So rather than really hone in on talking to
kids about what they can come back and say tous or that they feel safe with us, let's just
eliminate that whole need.
Let's do everything we can to avoid those one
(42:30):
to one situations.
Identify the situations that create
opportunity for abuse.
Consider ways to avoid the isolation of a
child with another person.
In my case, my.
(42:51):
And I don't know why.
I don't know why this was.
We were all going out somewhere and mydaughter said she wanted to hang back.
I think she may have gotten like a new game orsomething and she wanted to hang back and play
that.
And my father said he was going to hang back,
(43:14):
too.
And I should never have allowed that one to
one opportunity.
And that gets me pretty much every day.
Yeah.
(43:36):
Just be aware and don't allow those one to one
situations.
We know that child sexual abuse most often
occurs in one to one situations where theabuser and the victim are out of sight.
(43:59):
This is 80% of the time, and that doesn't haveto be way out of sight.
Apparently my father also tried to do this tomy cousin.
We had a whole house full for Thanksgiving.
There were a lot of people here, and he just
(44:22):
took her down in the basement.
She was able to get away.
Nobody remembers that.
She only told us, I don't know, 1015 years
later, nobody noticed that they were gonebecause there were so many people.
And there's a lot going on for cooking andeverything.
(44:46):
So it doesn't have to be far, it just has tobe behind closed doors.
So eliminate that.
Have an open door policy.
If it's daytime, doors should be open ifthere's more than one person in the room.
And this should apply every day, everywhere,even if it's just your immediate family.
(45:09):
Because siblings are doing this to siblings.
When people are over to visit one on one time,
doesn't need to be in a closed bedroom.
So, yeah, maybe Uncle Larry wants to just have
some one on one time with a grandchild or anephew or a niece.
(45:31):
Keep the door open.
There's no reason that you need to close the
door.
There's no reason that you need to go in the
basement.
But all the games are in the basement.
Bring it up here.
Cassy (45:45):
Or all the games are in the basement.
Okay, then go down as a group, right?
Amy (45:49):
Yes. Excellent.
Absolutely.
Cassy (45:56):
Since, as you mentioned, children are not likely to disclose.
So what are warning signs that could maybe tipoff parents that something's been going on?
Amy (46:13):
Um, crying, different bathroom habits, not wanting you to see them.
Like, if all of a sudden they don't want youin the room when they're dressing, or in a lot
(46:34):
of families, it's kind of an open door policywith the same gender parent if all of a sudden
they are not comfortable with that.
For my daughter, it was a complete change.
(46:56):
She.
And again, when I say it, I think people will
think like, lady, how did you not know?But again, hindsight is 2020.
It was little things here and there, and Icouldn't put it all together.
(47:24):
She never slept with the light off.
Like, all of a sudden, I was always
disgruntled.
Like, you need to turn the light off.
She.
She locked doors when we would go to their
(47:47):
house.
The poor girl was with this man for ten years
after this happened, over and over and overagain, and she would lock doors I thought that
(48:07):
the age turning 1112 13.
I thought she was just going through puberty.
Everyone was telling me that's what girls do,trying to think.
(48:28):
I don't know.
Cassy (48:30):
I guess in general, it's like if you're seeing shifts in behavior.
Amy (48:34):
Right? Anything that you on?
Yeah.
Cassy (48:40):
And what should parents do when they see that?
Amy (48:44):
I wish I had gone, taken her somewhere and talked together.
Like to a counselor like me, her and thecounselor.
Or even my husband, her and the counselor.
(49:06):
But then gave her the opportunity for her to
talk alone.
I wonder if that would have helped.
I did write her a letter six months after ithappened, and it's great.
(49:32):
Can I read it to you?Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Because it's amazing.
We found it just recently.
I didn't even remember writing it, and I just
couldn't believe that she didn't tell me.
(49:54):
I said, my sweet girl, from the time you were
little, you were my sweet, snuggly girl.
We always commented that you could turn any
situation into something good.
Your cup was always half full and you made
everyone feel like a million bucks.
Last summer you became so sullen and angry and
(50:15):
nasty.
I sometimes felt my heart was breaking.
Lately, I feel like my true girl is back.
My heart is singing.
My girl that is sweet and kind and huggy andhappy.
I hope you know you can talk to me aboutanything.
I always want what's best for you, other thanGod.
(50:37):
I am your biggest fan.
And she didn't respond at all.
And I didn't want to push because, you knowwhen your kid is like that, when they're
sullen and angry, and I was so worried aboutpushing her further away.
(51:07):
She said she felt like if she told the wholefamily, it would affect family and I wouldn't
have parents, and I don't care.
I don't have parents now.
(51:30):
I would give anything to have her healthy andwell.
Cassy (51:36):
I think that's something that kids are just, they're never going to understand until
they're a parent themselves.
Amy (51:45):
Right?
Cassy (51:47):
Even on a smaller level.
It's like when my six year old, oh, my gosh,
last night, I was putting her to bed and she'slike, mommy, you're so tired.
I'm going to do some more of.
Amy (51:57):
Your work for you because you're so sweet.
Cassy (51:59):
It is.
It's sweet, but it's like, you always do so
much for us, and I feel so bad and it's like,no, that's my job.
Right?Kids will understand and they never will until
they're a parent.
That a parent will sacrifice anything for
their kids health, safety and happiness forsomething of this magnitude.
Amy (52:23):
Yeah. She also told me once, because I said, didn't they talk about this in school?
Because I do remember her having, like, theyall go in the gym and had good touch, bad
touch or something when my kids were in gradeschool.
(52:44):
And I said, didn't they talk to you aboutthis?
And she said, yes, but they always acted like,again, like you were saying it was like the
weird guy in the hooded sweatshirt or the.
She said, I didn't know it could be a grandpa.
Nobody ever said it could be a grandpa.
(53:06):
So I thought something was wrong with me, that
this was bizarre, that this never happened,that something was wrong with me.
So teach your kids.
Cassy (53:30):
And that's part of they have control.
Amy (53:32):
Over their body, no matter who it is.
Cassy (53:36):
And that's where I think the mama bear effect can come into play because I'm looking
at their website right now and isn't itamazing?
It is.
Amy (53:46):
I love it.
Cassy (53:47):
I especially love how it has guides for how to talk to your children at all these
different age ranges.
And they even have a section for children with
disabilities, which for anyone who may befollowing this, I have a son with down
syndrome, and this is something that I thinkabout a lot.
Amy (54:07):
Statistically, they are victims more often.
Cassy (54:11):
Yeah. Because they're easily dear into my heart all the time.
I love that they even talk here.
Like, here's guides for how you can talk to
them about that.
Someone who has a disability, even
intellectual disabilities.
(54:32):
Yes.
And when you're thinking like, oh, it's a fouryear old, how am I supposed to talk to a four
year old about, like, they have that on.
Yeah.
Amy (54:41):
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Cassy (54:44):
You're wondering, where do I get, like, the mama bear effect is a great resource to
have.
Amy (54:52):
Yes, it truly is.
They also have a Facebook page that you can
follow.
Sometimes they offer like a webinar or they
just keep you up to date on what's happeningin the world and new statistics or new tools
(55:18):
to put in your toolbolt.
It's good stuff.
April is child sexual abuse awareness month.
Cassy (55:31):
I'm looking here.
They also have how you can help.
So if this is something that anyone listening,you want to get involved, they have ways that
you can volunteer and help.
And they specifically mentioned child abuse
prevention month in April.
Maybe you know what this is about, but they
say plant a pinwheel garden, right?
Amy (55:54):
Yeah, I guess that's just how different things have issues have either a color or, I
don't know what to call it, an item.
But, yeah, I guess the pinwheel.
I don't know if there's a story behind that.
I imagine there is, but I guess that's like
the symbol.
(56:15):
So just like kids will fork a lawn in the
middle of the night or whatever, it's not amischievous thing to do, to spread pinwheels
all over an area for child sexual abuseawareness.
(56:40):
But, yeah, that's my fervent goal for 2024, isto become much more involved with the mama
bear effect.
I would love to go into preschools and
daycares and elementary schools, churches toparents, to present to parents all the things
(57:09):
that we've talked about in this hour, to makethem aware, to give them tools in their tool
belt so that this does not happen to any morechildren.
Cassy (57:29):
Yeah, it's a very important, very important issue.
And it is reassuring.
I know we have a long way to go still, but
even just from this conversation, like,talking about how it was handled when we were
children to how it's looked at now, it'sreassuring that we're coming to more
(57:49):
understanding and knowledge on the issue.
And people who are informed and knowledgeable
are.
I mean, I don't know if there are studies to
back this up, it's just my opinion, but Ithink if you are knowledgeable about
something, you're that much more likely to beable to prevent it from happening.
Amy (58:07):
Absolutely. Yes. Knowledge is power.
Yes, absolutely.
Cassy (58:13):
And with that note, I just really want to thank you for coming on and sharing so much
of your knowledge and your story with ustoday.
Amy (58:23):
Yeah, somebody told me one time, you have joined a club that nobody ever wants to join.
And there's also a group, mothers of sexuallyabused children.
Mozak.
But nothing can turn back time.
(58:46):
And unfortunately, there are great stories ofreconciliation and healing, but the vast
majority of perpetrators do not admit it.
And that's what happened in our case.
Ours even went through the court.
(59:13):
Yeah, he's registered now, but that's about
it.
He's living his best life in a really nice
house, in a really nice area, doing themreally nice things.
Sorry.
Cassy (59:31):
Well, we will make sure to include links for all of these resources, the mama
bear effect, and many more in our show notes.
Awesome.
So thank you again so much, Amy, for.
Amy (59:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you.
Cassy (59:58):
That's our episode for this week.
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Hi, and welcome to the south central PA mom, Fireflies, and Whoopee Pie podcast, where
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So sit back, grab a coffee a while, and settle
in for the show.
(00:27):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode of Firefliesand Whoopee Pie.
This week we have Amy, another local mom whois here to talk to us about a very important
topic.
Amy, thank you for being with us today.
Amy (00:41):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
Cassy (00:44):
So you are here to talk about the mama bear effect.
Can you tell me a little bit about what thatis?
Amy (00:51):
Absolutely. The Mama Bear effect is a 501 c three nonprofit for child sexual abuse
awareness and prevention.
So the mission is to make abuse prevention
education accessible and geared towardfamilies and caregivers.
Adrian Simeon founded the mama Bear effect inthe fall of 2012.
(01:15):
She lives in Massachusetts with her husbandand four children.
She worked in marketing and sales until havingher first child.
It was after reading one too many storiesabout a child being sexually abused that
Adrienne felt a calling to create change andencourage people to protect children from
being sexually abused.
Cassy (01:36):
Now, I think that a lot of people have this mindset that this is something really
rare and that it only happens to other people.
Right?
Amy (01:47):
Yeah. It would never happen in our family.
Cassy (01:50):
But that's not even remotely true.
Amy (01:53):
No, not even close.
Not even close.
So the definition of child sexual abuse is anysexual activity between an adult and a child
is sexual abuse.
Sexual abuse does not have to involve
penetration, force, pain, or even touching.
(02:15):
If an adult engages in any sexual behavior,
looking, showing anything with a child to meetthe adult's interest, that's sexual abuse.
Cassy (02:26):
Right.
So, like, if your kid, let's say you have, I
don't know, a ten year old, and they go to afriend's house, and the friend's dad is like,
hey, come look at this playboy with me, right?That is an example of sexual abuse.
Amy (02:39):
Yes. So, statistics range from study to study, but they estimate that one in ten
children are affected by sexual abuse topossibly as many as one in four girls and one
in six boys.
So that's a huge percentage of our children.
(03:04):
And 75% of these victims will not tell for atleast a year, if ever.
So it's not something largely talked about.
Half of the victims will wait at least five
years before telling.
And again, some never disclose.
(03:24):
The majority of abuse is not reported to theauthorities.
So even when Adrian was reading all thesestories, that was just the tip of the iceberg.
We're not hearing most of the stories.
Cassy (03:39):
Well, kids I would imagine are experiencing a lot of the same emotions that
adults do.
Like this guilt, like, this is my fault.
I should have said this differently or donethis differently, or shame.
If I tell the people this, then someone'sgoing to think less of me or they're going to
blame me.
So stay quiet, right?
Amy (03:59):
Yeah, exactly.
I thought it would never happen in our family.
It happened to me by my brother when I was achild, and I tried to tell my mom and was met
with just frantic, not wanting to hear it,like, just stop talking.
(04:25):
And so I thought, okay, I'm never bringingthat up again.
And I was never protected from it.
It was ongoing.
So having gone through that, I thought I wasdoing everything right.
I told my husband even before we got married,if we ever have kids, they're never going to
(04:48):
be left alone.
With my brother.
I was really vigilant about letting mychildren go to other people's homes, even if
we knew them, because maybe you know themother really well, but who's to say there's a
brother or a cousin or an uncle or whomever.
(05:11):
So I didn't really let her do playdates and
sleepovers.
They had to come here.
I thought I was being really protective.
She was actually sexually abused by my own
father when she was ten years old.
(05:35):
I never in a million years thought I had to
protect her from him.
We vacationed with them every year.
It happened on a vacation, but she didn't tellus.
I knew that something had changed prior tothat, she was the most loving, laid back,
(06:00):
huggy, just fabulous, pleasant child.
And I noticed right away that something was
different.
She was angry and sullen and didn't want to be
touched.
And I kept asking people for help, the
pediatrician, other moms, anyone and everyone.
(06:22):
And everyone kept saying, oh, she's just going
through puberty early.
This is normal.
And I would do anything to go back in time andnot stop until I got an answer.
(06:45):
She went ten years and didn't tell us.
And then even the way it happened was just a
bizarre, the perfect storm that it came out.
And then, even then, she said she'd never tell
us who, but we pressed and we pressed and gother to tell us.
(07:06):
And then after that, it came out that he haddone it also to my niece.
So it can happen in any family, and it's notalways who you think it is.
So my daughter and I wish I could say thatshe's doing really well.
(07:33):
She's changed forever and it's a hard road.
And also she will tell you that she was very
close with my mom and we just assumed that shewould believe her.
(07:56):
Like, children don't make this stuff up.
Actually, that's another statistic.
It's less than 1% of disclosures turn out tobe false, that a child just made it up less
than 1%.
(08:16):
So my mom did not believe her.
And she says that was even worse than theabuse.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's destroyed our family for sure.
Everything's different.
(08:38):
But my daughter asked, because, of course, I
reached out to her to see what she'scomfortable with me sharing, and she asked me
to stress the importance that it could beanyone and that people close to you have more
of an opportunity.
(09:00):
She said parents need to make sure kids feel
safe telling them something happened.
If it's a grandparent or a close family
member, that can make it feel impossible forthe child to tell anyone due to fear of not
being believed and risk of punishment if theirparents don't believe them, she said, I felt
(09:21):
like there was a risk of everyone gettingupset with me and I didn't know if I would be
expected to confront him.
I knew he would lie and try to make it look
like I was exaggerating or making it up.
It felt safer to pretend like nothing happened
and be really guarded around him.
I had no idea what would happen if I told you.
(09:44):
And I kept running through different scenariosin my head.
They all seemed bad.
And you have to remember, a ten year old
doesn't have even the words necessarily to saywhat happened.
Cassy (10:03):
Right.
Amy (10:04):
Exactly. And that's what I want to talk about today.
Yeah.
My niece was also abused by my father.
And she told me that she used to rehearse whatshe would say to her mom, but then she would
start second guessing herself and wonder ifshe'd imagined the whole thing.
(10:24):
And she felt like she was going crazy becauseshe thought, grandfathers don't do this.
So in her mind, she convinced herself that shewas making it up, that she was going crazy.
And my heart just breaks.
She was also ten when it happened to her.
I just can't imagine just living with that.
Cassy (10:52):
Well, it's heartbreaking, I mean, to hear about, and I'm so sorry that your family
has had to experience this.
Amy (11:00):
Thank you.
Cassy (11:04):
Well, related to that, the people who were the perpetrators, both for you and for
your daughter and your niece, were people youknew, people you thought you could trust.
Amy (11:18):
Exactly.
40% of abusers are immediate or extended
family members of the victim.
50% know their victims and are in a position
of trust with not only the victim but thefamily, 40% are older.
(11:41):
Children, siblings, cousins, friends,neighbors.
It's crazy because when I started sharing whathad happened to our family, so many women
shared their story with me, and a lot of themsaid, nobody knows this, or only my husband
(12:04):
knows this, or my husband doesn't know this.
And the stories were of neighbors and friends
and people that they knew.
Cousins.
Yeah.
Cassy (12:24):
Well, and you don't want to talk about it because in addition to the psychological
effects of being a victim, it's also thiscultural mindset that, thankfully, it's
changing slowly, but there's still so much of,well, what did you do to bring it on?
Amy (12:46):
Right?
Cassy (12:46):
Or why didn't you run away? Or why didn't you fight back?
Or why didn't you say something?Or even more that what they did isn't that
bad?
Amy (12:57):
Exactly. Yeah. Yes.
Cassy (13:03):
It's even worse if this person is in a position of trust and respect and authority in
the community, or if they are know, well knownor looked up know.
You think of Chanel Miller, which is thecollege student who was assaulted by Brock
(13:23):
Turner, and what was the judge's words?That he didn't want to give him too harsh a
sentence because it would ruin a promisingyoung man's like, if the abuser is anyone in
any kind of position of authority, then that'swhat people are going to say.
We can't ruin this person's life.
(13:43):
Why are you trying to ruin this person's life?
Amy (13:45):
And parents will even cover it up when one of their children does it to another of
their children.
I know three families that the brother abused
the daughter or the sister, and then theparents, they know, they believe it, but they
(14:07):
make these victims agree to secrecy becausethey don't want their child life to be ruined.
They just want to sweep it under the rug.
Cassy (14:22):
I don't want to diminish what that must be like for parent, because you and I are both
moms, and I don't know how I would feel if oneof my kids had abused someone.
But the thing is that you're not helping thatchild, you're not helping their future if you
(14:43):
don't tackle what happened.
Because then they are going to become an adult
who thinks that this is acceptable.
Amy (14:50):
Absolutely.
It just perpetuates abuse in general.
We can't break the cycle.
It just keeps going.
The majority of people who exploit childrenthrough sexual materials, like you were
(15:11):
saying, come look at this magazine with me,are parents.
Parents are doing this.
So as far as who are the victims?
The average age for reported sexual abuse, I'mgoing to have you guess.
How many years old do you think the averageage is for reported sexual abuse?
Cassy (15:35):
When it happens or when they report when it happens.
That's.
I would completely have to.
Amy (15:46):
I don't.
Eight, nine years old.
Yeah.
And that's the average.
So it can be much younger, it can be mucholder.
Cassy (15:57):
And one thing that I think is, I think, really important to remember is that even
though girls are more likely, it's not justgirls.
If you're a mom of boys, this is somethingthat affects you, too.
Amy (16:12):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. 20% of children at least, will receive a
sexual solicitation via the Internet.
So there's a lot of awareness for sexual
(16:33):
assault and rape on college campuses, which isawesome, and that's important.
But the reality is children face sexual abuseat a much higher rate.
And yet support for prevention, for awareness,for appropriate resources, for the education
of adults and children is minimal.
Cassy (16:55):
That's what the mama bear effect helps to do.
Amy (16:57):
Right.
I had no idea that the mama bear effect
existed.
After my daughter's disclosure, I went to the
library and got every book there was on sexualassault, so I could understand the abuser's
(17:17):
thought process as much as possible, so Icould understand what my daughter was going
through.
And I was amazed at what's out there, how much
reading could be done.
But nobody knows the statistics.
Nobody knows that this material is out there.
So I love that the mama bear effect is trying
(17:41):
to bring this to light.
Cassy (17:46):
And you mentioned understanding the abusers.
So what is it?Why does someone do this?
Amy (17:54):
They don't know.
Some have been abused themselves, but some
have not.
There's no conclusive anything on that.
Cassy (18:11):
Obviously, this is just speculation, but I would imagine that part of it is that a
child is someone that you can easily control.
Amy (18:18):
Absolutely.
Cassy (18:19):
And manipulate.
You can manipulate a nine year old a whole lot
easier than you can manipulate a 19 year old.
Not that a 19 year old can't be manipulated,
like grooming is the thing, but it's a loteasier for a nine year old or a six year old
to be manipulated and then controlled, right?
Amy (18:40):
Yeah.
Cassy (18:41):
And even scared, again, a 19 year old, of course, you can still scare them, but it's
a lot easier to tell a seven year old, hey, ifyou tell anyone this, I'm going to go do blah
blah blah to your mom and dad, and they'regoing to believe you, right?
Amy (18:58):
Absolutely. Yes. Over 80% of children are abused within a home, either their own home or
the home of the perpetrator.
So I think we have an idea that this is
happening in dark alleys or in the playgroundin the middle of the night or something.
(19:20):
But like I said, over 80%.
It's in the abuser's home or it's in the
victim's home.
So, yeah, we don't just want to talk to our
children.
We also want to have conversations with other
adults to take steps to minimize the risk.
(19:40):
So a child's body safety education is never
put to the test to begin with.
As a family, we need to work together to
promote appropriate behaviors and set anexample of respectful relationships so kids
can know what it's supposed to look likebecause they don't know any different.
(20:01):
So this means not forcing affection.
I'm sure we're all guilty of it.
Of forcing our kids to hug aunt May or grandpaor whoever.
No. They can ask, but also tell your kid it'sokay to say, I'm not comfortable with that.
(20:24):
Can I give you a high five or findalternatives?
Cassy (20:28):
Yeah, I think that that's something that, for our generation, we were raised to
see that, oh, well, you're being rude if yousay no.
Amy (20:36):
Right?
Cassy (20:36):
But it's like, hey, saying, I don't want to give you a hug or I don't want to sit
in your lap.
It doesn't have to equal rudeness.
Hey, I don't want to give you a hug right now,but like you mentioned, hey, how about a high
five instead?
Amy (20:48):
Right?
Cassy (20:49):
It's not rude.
Amy (20:50):
No.
Cassy (20:52):
Children.
That they have control over their bodies.
Amy (20:54):
Exactly.
And we don't want to shield children from
talking about it, thinking, oh, it'll bedetrimental if we talk about it.
It's more detrimental if we don't.
We also want to shield children from
sexualized content.
(21:16):
Don't put your head in the sand and think, oh,
if I give them this tablet or whatever, thatthey're just going to watch cocoa melon.
Be mindful and be aware and shield them fromthe sexualized content so that they don't
(21:37):
think that that's normal.
We want to teach and promote privacy, like,
you deserve to have privacy when you'rechanging or when you're using the bathroom,
and have open conversations with kids aboutanything and everything so they can feel
(21:57):
comfortable talking to us.
Also calling out, and I wish I would have done
this when my kids were small, calling outsomeone, anyone, even if it's a relative, who
is not respecting your child's boundaries ordoing something that could harm a child.
(22:18):
A lot of times we think if it is our parentsor our siblings, that, oh, they're just having
fun.
But they might be refusing to respect our
boundaries.
So it's perfectly acceptable to limit or
modify or eliminate contact like I did with mybrother if he were to have an objection.
(22:47):
Like, you can't play behind this closed doorwith my daughter.
Well, that's a huge red flag.
A good, decent, loving person is going to
respect your boundaries and you shouldn't feellike you can't make the rules and make family
obey the rules.
Cassy (23:08):
Right.
And every time there's a red flag, it doesn't
mean that someone is an abuser, but you stillshould pay attention when there is one.
Amy (23:15):
Right.
Cassy (23:16):
And someone not being willing to obey your boundaries, that's a red flag.
Amy (23:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And like I said before, with going over to a
friend's house for a play date, other peoplemight be coming or going.
Like, you don't know who's in that house.
Are you on the same page about body safety?
Do they not allow playing behind closed doors?What kind of access do they have to the
(23:49):
Internet?And then there's the oodles and oodles of
organized activities that our kids go to, beit sports or faith based or camps or whatever.
Don't be afraid to ask them questions.
Say, what do you do to prioritize safety?
(24:09):
Are children ever permitted to be alone one onone with an adult?
Why does that happen?Or with another child?
Don't forget that a good percentage of abuseis happening from other children when children
are left alone one to one.
(24:32):
So the mama bear effect, they have something
called rock the talk.
It's on their website and it's a resource for
parents to learn how to talk to kids of allages.
She has one for babies, for toddlers, forpreschoolers, like all the way up for
teenagers of just how to talk to your kidsabout body safety.
(24:57):
We talked earlier about how survivors havesaid, I did not have the words to tell.
That was totally my experience.
When I talk to my mom, I'm just spitting out
different things that probably didn't makesense.
I didn't know what to say.
I didn't have the vocabulary or just the
(25:21):
maturity to explain what was happening.
So there is a big difference between a secret
and a surprise.
Can I ask you that?
I'm sorry, I'm putting you on the spot withall these questions.
What do you think the difference between asecret and a surprise?
Cassy (25:44):
Well, I think that it would be all in the way that you are framing it.
A surprise is something that we're not goingto tell mom because her birthday is coming up,
but she's going to find out two weeks.
Whereas the secret is something we don't want
her to ever find out, right?
Amy (26:00):
Yes. You hit it on the head.
I had never thought about this before, but if
I had it to do it over again, I would be a nosecret.
Family secrets are usually not positive and noone else will ever know.
Like you said, secrets are really only formarried couples and maybe professional
(26:25):
counselors.
They serve no purpose in a child's life.
A surprise, however, is usually somethingpositive and everyone's going to know about it
at a specific point in time.
So those are for everyone.
So I wish I would have taught my kids thedifference very young and made it clear that
(26:48):
we don't have secrets.
No one should ask you to keep a secret.
I'm not going to keep secrets from you.
You're not going to keep secrets from me.
Surprises are great.
We can all go in on a surprise, but we just
don't have secrets in our family.
Cassy (27:05):
And I think that that's another part of what you just said.
The difference between secrets and surprises.
We can all go in in a surprise.
If we're having a surprise for mom, it's okayif Uncle Joey finds out, right?
You can help with the surprise.
Amy (27:18):
Yeah, and you can teach that through other things, too.
You're teaching them to respect themselves.
So even if it's something little know, Aunt
Jan gave you cookies before dinner and shesaid, let's keep this as our little secret.
(27:42):
Well, people might think that's totallyharmless, but if the child is learning to keep
secrets from their parents, that's not goingto end well.
The child should be able to come home and belike, aunt Jan broke the rules.
She gave me cookies and she told me to keep ita secret.
(28:04):
So then it's my job to go to Aunt Jan and say,hey, I love that the two of you have fun
together.
And I understand there's going to be special
things and it's not a big deal to have cookiesbefore dinner once in a while.
But don't call it a secret.
Don't ask my child to keep something from me.
There cannot be secrets because I'm her momand I'm in charge and I'm responsible for her.
(28:33):
Jan. Aunt Jan should be like, oh, my gosh,you're totally right.
That totally makes sense.
Thank you.
And if she's not, then there's something.
Cassy (28:46):
And what would you say? Because I feel like there, even still today,
is a lot of pushback to this kind of stuff.
Like, oh, it's not that big a deal.
Amy (28:53):
Right.
Cassy (28:55):
They know not to let anyone do whatever things to them.
Amy (29:01):
But that's how people groom.
That's how abusers groom.
It does start.
I'm not saying that everybody who gives a kid
a cookie and says, keep it a secret is anabuser, but that's how abusers do start to
groom.
They're going to test it.
They're going to see, will this child keepthis secret from their mom?
(29:23):
And then can I push it?And can I push it?
And can I push it?Right.
Cassy (29:27):
Like, start building that relationship to where exactly the child is.
Like, oh, this is my special friend.
Amy (29:35):
Right.
Cassy (29:35):
I don't want to get them in trouble because they're my special friend.
Amy (29:38):
Exactly.
And we want the other adults in our kids lives
to know that our kids are going to tell usstuff.
And again, they should be okay with that.
If they really love your child and want what's
best for your child.
(29:59):
Of course it's not realistic to plan to be
with your child every minute.
I have heard parents say, I'm homeschooling.
I won't let them do sports or whatever it maybe.
It's not realistic to plan to be with yourchild every minute.
(30:22):
So when your child is spending time alone withothers, the risk for abuse can increase,
whether it's camp or a playdate or asleepover.
So what we want to do is incorporate regularcheck ins with our children, and then it
normalizes the conversations.
So at a quiet time, bedtime, whenever you can
(30:45):
talk to your kid one on one, after they'vebeen alone with somebody, ask them open ended
questions.
How did you spend your time?
Did you do anything different with them attheir house than we do here?
What was the best part?What was the worst part?
Did everyone follow body safety rules?Did you ever feel uncomfortable?
(31:09):
And of course, you don't want to ask everysingle question every single time, and you
kind of want to build that.
Start when they're tiny, tiny, tiny.
So it feels like a conversation and not aninterrogation.
And then they're going to be in the habit ofnot only talking to you, but of kind of
(31:35):
analyzing their time with other people.
And that's going to serve them well throughout
their life in relationships they have andmaking good choices just to kind of have a
check in and see.
Was that in my best interest?
Was I comfortable?Is that something I want in my life?
Cassy (32:02):
Right.
Because part of our job as parents is getting
our children ready to be adults.
Right?
Amy (32:10):
Exactly.
Cassy (32:11):
We can't never let them have independence.
Amy (32:15):
Exactly.
Cassy (32:17):
I can imagine it's going to be hard when you start out to have these
conversations, but eventually it gets easier.
Amy (32:24):
Right.
It's just what you do.
It's just normal.
Cassy (32:29):
And it doesn't have to be like an interrogation.
Amy (32:32):
Exactly.
Well, it shouldn't be.
Yeah.
Cassy (32:35):
Like, hey, you went to wrestling practice today.
How did it go?Oh, I had a great time.
Okay.
And you just kind of naturally work it into
the conversation.
Amy (32:46):
Right? Exactly. Yeah. So what does not work to
prevent children from sexual abuse is trustingpeople based solely on their reputation or
authority.
Like you talked about.
Know, people in these positions that we just.
(33:07):
Doctors.
Like, think about the doctor with thegymnastics team that everybody.
Cassy (33:16):
Larry. Larry Nasser.
Amy (33:17):
Yeah. It's just disgusting.
But people believe it because it's a doctor.
Right?So don't do that.
Don't dress everybody.
Don't assume that schools and programs
specifically for children are takingcomprehensive steps to.
Cassy (33:38):
Protect children or that just because someone is presenting themselves as this nice,
upstanding.
Oh, look, they go to church every Sunday or
they volunteer at my kids school.
Okay?
Those are great things.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that.
It doesn't mean anything.
Amy (33:58):
Yeah. And that's my father.
He's very.
He's very vain.
And he will brag about how he's never missed
church.
Now, looking back, of course, hindsight is
2020, but anyone who builds themselves up thatmuch, now I'm thinking, of course, what was he
(34:27):
hiding?What was he trying to convince himself and
everybody else what an upstanding man he is.
And he does.
He still goes to church every Sunday.
Another thing is, even if people pass their
(34:49):
background checks, remember that most abuse isnot reported.
A lot of abuse is not even disclosed.
But from there, very few people report it
because, again, they want to shield peoplefrom ruining their life or whatever.
(35:12):
So someone can have a long history of abusingpeople and still pass a background check.
So you can't rest assured in simply knowingthat the school or the camp or wherever has
done their background checks.
Also, I think when you and I were young, it
(35:36):
was the stranger danger.
And I think we are getting away from that.
I hope we are.
Cassy (35:44):
Yes, totally.
It was like growing up, it was stranger
danger.
And the notion of sexual abuse was for
children that I was taught, and I don't evenwant to say by my parents, this was just
culturally the way it was.
It was like the notion of, oh, yeah, the guy
(36:04):
who was like, oh, come with me to look for mylost puppy, Right.
Comes up to you at the park and says that thenyou don't go.
Amy (36:12):
Lure you into their car with their candy.
Cassy (36:17):
And you look back in retrospect, it's like that.
That's ridiculous.
It doesn't never happen, but it's like it
pretty much never happens.
Amy (36:25):
Right? Yeah, exactly.
90% of perpetrators are not strangers.
And we also want kids that if they are in a
bad position, that they should look for a copor not.
(36:46):
All strangers are dangerous.
Some of them can help you.
Cassy (36:52):
I saw a phrase that I don't remember where I saw it, so I'm not taking credit.
I'm a mom, so my brain is just like a sievemost of the time.
It just kind of stuff disappears.
But it's what I use now, and it's tricky
people, and that's what I try to tell my kids.
(37:14):
If you're in trouble, go ask an adult.
A tricky person is the type of person thatwill go ask a kid for help as an example.
Amy (37:21):
Right.
Cassy (37:22):
There is no circumstance in which an adult should be asking a child for help.
Exactly like tricky people.
That's you need to worry about.
But if you're in trouble and you feeluncomfortable, absolutely find your closest
adult and ask them, because 99% of the timethey're going to help you.
Amy (37:39):
Right.
And that's another thing the mama bear effect
talks about is teaching your kids who they cantalk to and that that circle should be so
small, like, let them know if anything isgoing on.
And you don't want to come to me, go to thisperson that, you know, understands body safety
(38:06):
and the whole nine yards.
We don't want to tell them to go to any adult.
But, yeah, there should be at least one otherperson that they can go to if they're not
comfortable going to you for whatever reason.
Yeah, I like that.
Tricky people.
Cassy (38:27):
Yeah. There was this whole list of examples, but I remember it stood out because
I'm like, oh, my gosh, that makes so much moresense than the idea of stranger danger.
And I remember one of the biggest things thatthey talked about was adults asking children
for help or adults trying to be a child'sfriend.
(38:47):
I think it was a lot of stuff along thoselines, which are signs of grooming.
Amy (38:52):
Right.
Cassy (38:54):
Because adults are not friend with children.
Right.
Amy (38:57):
Yeah.
Cassy (38:58):
You're a 45 year old man or woman, which I think that's another thing that I'm
totally, like, just going off in left field.
But women can be abusers, too.
Amy (39:08):
They can.
Cassy (39:08):
I know they're not often rare.
It's not as often, but it's like, don't let
your guard down just because it's Aunt sue,right?
Amy (39:18):
Yeah.
Cassy (39:19):
If Aunt sue is acting weird and crossing boundaries and stuff, then still have
that red flag up.
Amy (39:26):
Right.
Cassy (39:27):
Anyway, about it.
Yeah, but it's like, no, you're a 45 year old
man.
There's no friendship with my nine year old.
Amy (39:35):
Right.
We need to teach our kids that it's not their
job to help adults.
It's never your job to help an adult.
Yeah.
So what does work?
We know being open and expecting others tobehave within our boundaries request what
(40:04):
policies are in place at camps.
Activities to eliminate one to one situations.
The one to one issue, I think, is the biggestthing anywhere that your kids go.
They should not be left alone with anotheradult or with another child.
(40:24):
One to one.
There is safety in numbers, and we know enough
that that should be everybody's policy.
If you take your kid to an activity and
they're.
No, you know, Bob takes the kids.
If they have to go to the bathroom, they haveto go with just Bob.
(40:45):
Well, no, they should have.
Something is wrong if they don't have policies
in place to eliminate one to one situations.
I mean, I know like some churches have, even
for their classrooms, they've put a window inevery door so anyone going by at any time can
(41:11):
look in.
We need to accept that the greatest risk to
children will come from those that they knowand that you know really well.
I know I say that over and over again, but Idon't think people know or maybe even believe
that 90% of abusers know their victims.
(41:38):
And we need to educate our children to
understand their body and the concept ofconsent and personal responsibility.
So I think the best defense is educating ourchildren.
There is a lot that we can educate the adultsin our circle to avoid ever putting children
(42:05):
in the situation in the first place.
So rather than really hone in on talking to
kids about what they can come back and say tous or that they feel safe with us, let's just
eliminate that whole need.
Let's do everything we can to avoid those one
(42:30):
to one situations.
Identify the situations that create
opportunity for abuse.
Consider ways to avoid the isolation of a
child with another person.
In my case, my.
(42:51):
And I don't know why.
I don't know why this was.
We were all going out somewhere and mydaughter said she wanted to hang back.
I think she may have gotten like a new game orsomething and she wanted to hang back and play
that.
And my father said he was going to hang back,
(43:14):
too.
And I should never have allowed that one to
one opportunity.
And that gets me pretty much every day.
Yeah.
(43:36):
Just be aware and don't allow those one to one
situations.
We know that child sexual abuse most often
occurs in one to one situations where theabuser and the victim are out of sight.
(43:59):
This is 80% of the time, and that doesn't haveto be way out of sight.
Apparently my father also tried to do this tomy cousin.
We had a whole house full for Thanksgiving.
There were a lot of people here, and he just
(44:22):
took her down in the basement.
She was able to get away.
Nobody remembers that.
She only told us, I don't know, 1015 years
later, nobody noticed that they were gonebecause there were so many people.
And there's a lot going on for cooking andeverything.
(44:46):
So it doesn't have to be far, it just has tobe behind closed doors.
So eliminate that.
Have an open door policy.
If it's daytime, doors should be open ifthere's more than one person in the room.
And this should apply every day, everywhere,even if it's just your immediate family.
(45:09):
Because siblings are doing this to siblings.
When people are over to visit one on one time,
doesn't need to be in a closed bedroom.
So, yeah, maybe Uncle Larry wants to just have
some one on one time with a grandchild or anephew or a niece.
(45:31):
Keep the door open.
There's no reason that you need to close the
door.
There's no reason that you need to go in the
basement.
But all the games are in the basement.
Bring it up here.
Cassy (45:45):
Or all the games are in the basement.
Okay, then go down as a group, right?
Amy (45:49):
Yes. Excellent.
Absolutely.
Cassy (45:56):
Since, as you mentioned, children are not likely to disclose.
So what are warning signs that could maybe tipoff parents that something's been going on?
Amy (46:13):
Um, crying, different bathroom habits, not wanting you to see them.
Like, if all of a sudden they don't want youin the room when they're dressing, or in a lot
(46:34):
of families, it's kind of an open door policywith the same gender parent if all of a sudden
they are not comfortable with that.
For my daughter, it was a complete change.
(46:56):
She.
And again, when I say it, I think people will
think like, lady, how did you not know?But again, hindsight is 2020.
It was little things here and there, and Icouldn't put it all together.
(47:24):
She never slept with the light off.
Like, all of a sudden, I was always
disgruntled.
Like, you need to turn the light off.
She.
She locked doors when we would go to their
(47:47):
house.
The poor girl was with this man for ten years
after this happened, over and over and overagain, and she would lock doors I thought that
(48:07):
the age turning 1112 13.
I thought she was just going through puberty.
Everyone was telling me that's what girls do,trying to think.
(48:28):
I don't know.
Cassy (48:30):
I guess in general, it's like if you're seeing shifts in behavior.
Amy (48:34):
Right? Anything that you on?
Yeah.
Cassy (48:40):
And what should parents do when they see that?
Amy (48:44):
I wish I had gone, taken her somewhere and talked together.
Like to a counselor like me, her and thecounselor.
Or even my husband, her and the counselor.
(49:06):
But then gave her the opportunity for her to
talk alone.
I wonder if that would have helped.
I did write her a letter six months after ithappened, and it's great.
(49:32):
Can I read it to you?Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Because it's amazing.
We found it just recently.
I didn't even remember writing it, and I just
couldn't believe that she didn't tell me.
(49:54):
I said, my sweet girl, from the time you were
little, you were my sweet, snuggly girl.
We always commented that you could turn any
situation into something good.
Your cup was always half full and you made
everyone feel like a million bucks.
Last summer you became so sullen and angry and
(50:15):
nasty.
I sometimes felt my heart was breaking.
Lately, I feel like my true girl is back.
My heart is singing.
My girl that is sweet and kind and huggy andhappy.
I hope you know you can talk to me aboutanything.
I always want what's best for you, other thanGod.
(50:37):
I am your biggest fan.
And she didn't respond at all.
And I didn't want to push because, you knowwhen your kid is like that, when they're
sullen and angry, and I was so worried aboutpushing her further away.
(51:07):
She said she felt like if she told the wholefamily, it would affect family and I wouldn't
have parents, and I don't care.
I don't have parents now.
(51:30):
I would give anything to have her healthy andwell.
Cassy (51:36):
I think that's something that kids are just, they're never going to understand until
they're a parent themselves.
Amy (51:45):
Right?
Cassy (51:47):
Even on a smaller level.
It's like when my six year old, oh, my gosh,
last night, I was putting her to bed and she'slike, mommy, you're so tired.
I'm going to do some more of.
Amy (51:57):
Your work for you because you're so sweet.
Cassy (51:59):
It is.
It's sweet, but it's like, you always do so
much for us, and I feel so bad and it's like,no, that's my job.
Right?Kids will understand and they never will until
they're a parent.
That a parent will sacrifice anything for
their kids health, safety and happiness forsomething of this magnitude.
Amy (52:23):
Yeah. She also told me once, because I said, didn't they talk about this in school?
Because I do remember her having, like, theyall go in the gym and had good touch, bad
touch or something when my kids were in gradeschool.
(52:44):
And I said, didn't they talk to you aboutthis?
And she said, yes, but they always acted like,again, like you were saying it was like the
weird guy in the hooded sweatshirt or the.
She said, I didn't know it could be a grandpa.
Nobody ever said it could be a grandpa.
(53:06):
So I thought something was wrong with me, that
this was bizarre, that this never happened,that something was wrong with me.
So teach your kids.
Cassy (53:30):
And that's part of they have control.
Amy (53:32):
Over their body, no matter who it is.
Cassy (53:36):
And that's where I think the mama bear effect can come into play because I'm looking
at their website right now and isn't itamazing?
It is.
Amy (53:46):
I love it.
Cassy (53:47):
I especially love how it has guides for how to talk to your children at all these
different age ranges.
And they even have a section for children with
disabilities, which for anyone who may befollowing this, I have a son with down
syndrome, and this is something that I thinkabout a lot.
Amy (54:07):
Statistically, they are victims more often.
Cassy (54:11):
Yeah. Because they're easily dear into my heart all the time.
I love that they even talk here.
Like, here's guides for how you can talk to
them about that.
Someone who has a disability, even
intellectual disabilities.
(54:32):
Yes.
And when you're thinking like, oh, it's a fouryear old, how am I supposed to talk to a four
year old about, like, they have that on.
Yeah.
Amy (54:41):
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Cassy (54:44):
You're wondering, where do I get, like, the mama bear effect is a great resource to
have.
Amy (54:52):
Yes, it truly is.
They also have a Facebook page that you can
follow.
Sometimes they offer like a webinar or they
just keep you up to date on what's happeningin the world and new statistics or new tools
(55:18):
to put in your toolbolt.
It's good stuff.
April is child sexual abuse awareness month.
Cassy (55:31):
I'm looking here.
They also have how you can help.
So if this is something that anyone listening,you want to get involved, they have ways that
you can volunteer and help.
And they specifically mentioned child abuse
prevention month in April.
Maybe you know what this is about, but they
say plant a pinwheel garden, right?
Amy (55:54):
Yeah, I guess that's just how different things have issues have either a color or, I
don't know what to call it, an item.
But, yeah, I guess the pinwheel.
I don't know if there's a story behind that.
I imagine there is, but I guess that's like
the symbol.
(56:15):
So just like kids will fork a lawn in the
middle of the night or whatever, it's not amischievous thing to do, to spread pinwheels
all over an area for child sexual abuseawareness.
(56:40):
But, yeah, that's my fervent goal for 2024, isto become much more involved with the mama
bear effect.
I would love to go into preschools and
daycares and elementary schools, churches toparents, to present to parents all the things
(57:09):
that we've talked about in this hour, to makethem aware, to give them tools in their tool
belt so that this does not happen to any morechildren.
Cassy (57:29):
Yeah, it's a very important, very important issue.
And it is reassuring.
I know we have a long way to go still, but
even just from this conversation, like,talking about how it was handled when we were
children to how it's looked at now, it'sreassuring that we're coming to more
(57:49):
understanding and knowledge on the issue.
And people who are informed and knowledgeable
are.
I mean, I don't know if there are studies to
back this up, it's just my opinion, but Ithink if you are knowledgeable about
something, you're that much more likely to beable to prevent it from happening.
Amy (58:07):
Absolutely. Yes. Knowledge is power.
Yes, absolutely.
Cassy (58:13):
And with that note, I just really want to thank you for coming on and sharing so much
of your knowledge and your story with ustoday.
Amy (58:23):
Yeah, somebody told me one time, you have joined a club that nobody ever wants to join.
And there's also a group, mothers of sexuallyabused children.
Mozak.
But nothing can turn back time.
(58:46):
And unfortunately, there are great stories ofreconciliation and healing, but the vast
majority of perpetrators do not admit it.
And that's what happened in our case.
Ours even went through the court.
(59:13):
Yeah, he's registered now, but that's about
it.
He's living his best life in a really nice
house, in a really nice area, doing themreally nice things.
Sorry.
Cassy (59:31):
Well, we will make sure to include links for all of these resources, the mama
bear effect, and many more in our show notes.
Awesome.
So thank you again so much, Amy, for.
Amy (59:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you.
Cassy (59:58):
That's our episode for this week.
New episodes will drop every Monday.
Make sure to subscribe so you never miss out.
Leave us a review and share to help other moms
find us.
Thanks for stopping by the Fireflies and
Whoopee Pie podcast, the only podcast by southcentral Pa.
Moms or south central Pa moms.
Until next time.
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