May 16, 2024 • 17 mins
In this insightful episode of the HJ Talks About Abuse podcast, the host Alan Collins, partner at Hugh James, and his colleague Danielle Vincent come together to discuss the pressing issue of sexual abuse allegations within the Royal Navy. This frank dialogue is sparked by recent media coverage around a whistleblower, Sophie Brook, a former Royal Navy submarine naval officer, who courageously brought to light the inadequate handling of her own sexual abuse allegations.
Alan and Danielle explore the unique dynamics within military institutions, struggling to differentiate between initiations and inappropriate, harmful behavior. They delve into the complex world of the armed forces, a historically male-dominated environment, and the challenges that survivors of sexual abuse face in this context. The hosts underscore the need for transparency and independent report handling in the armed forces. Furthermore, they highlight the negative implications these issues could have on recruitment and the lives of promising service people.
Join Alan and Danielle as they examine the closed world of the military, highlighting experiences that have led to significant change, and call for greater action to ensure the safety and dignity of all service people.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:09):
To the HJ Talks About Abuse podcast, the podcast where we talk about sexual
abuse cases and hope that it will assist listeners in openly discussing topics
which have been ignored for too long.
This podcast is brought to you by the abuse team at Hugh James.
We are lawyers, so we tend to speak about the legal aspects of abuse cases,
but we aren't too shy to speak up about the broader issues faced by survivors of sexual abuse too.
(00:33):
We hope that you find it interesting, but more than that, if you are a survivor
of sexual abuse, We hope that you find our discussion empowering.
Hello, my name is Alan Collins. I am the partner who heads up the abuse team at Hugh James.
Welcome to this latest podcast where we're going to be talking about sexual
(00:55):
abuse allegations in the Royal Navy.
I'm joined in this podcast by my colleague Danielle Vincent.
Hi, Danny. Hi, Alan. Thank you, Danny.
So before we get underway with this latest podcast, I need to remind you that
these podcasts can contain distressing subjects and material.
(01:18):
We're talking about sexual abuse and everything that goes with that.
And quite understandably, it can be distressing, upsetting, and so on.
So, if you think you're going to be troubled by what we're discussing in this
podcast, now's the time to switch off and do something else.
Otherwise, please do stay with us.
(01:41):
So, right, the subject matter is sexual abuse allegations in the Royal Navy.
And we thought that we would talk about that because of some recent media coverage.
Headline, there's sexual assault, sexual harassment in the Royal Navy.
And in particular, this whistleblower by the name of Sophie Brook says within the submarine service.
(02:10):
And as I understand it, Sophie Brooke is a former Royal Navy submarine naval
officer and is now described as a whistleblower who has claimed that she has
been left in limbo and let down by the way that her sexual abuse allegations have been dealt with.
It is reported that Sophie who
(02:31):
could have become the first female captain on
a submarine left the Royal Navy after she claimed she suffered hostility and
sexual harassment during her period of service and reported her allegations
of sexual harassment and assault some 18 months ago now all of this.
(02:54):
And we sound um i'm treating any of this lightly because i'm
not but all of this sort of has echoes of i'm
sure if i cast my mind back to complaints
and allegations that have sort of flowed from
ever from whenever it was but serving on
a royal navy ship including
(03:15):
a submarine and was sort of opened up to women
because obviously it was a sort of male preserve historically and i just had
in the back of my mind reports of complaints and allegations going back some
time and of course you and i danny have dealt with quite a number of cases over the years which have
(03:39):
had a military background and
i think in particular we've had we've i've dealt
with lots of cases where you have
allegations of sexual
abuse and inappropriate behavior on the
part of an individual or groups of individuals where it's difficult sometimes
(04:05):
to sort out what was banter and horseplay initiation ceremonies and that kind of thing from.
You know sexual assault now those who are sort of tuning in and listening to
me may think what's he on about but being objectively and thinking about is
(04:29):
there a case here you have to try and untangle.
What is often a closed world and
for those who are not familiar with life in the services it can be difficult
to untangle what exactly has been going on you know I remember a particular
(04:51):
case again is involving very young sailors,
And they were getting involved in, I think they were described as shower parties.
And quite a number of the sort of more older younger lads, or ratings,
(05:13):
got into serious trouble.
And I think, casting my mind back, there may well have been a couple who got
chucked out of the Royal Navy.
But trying to untangle what was going on, it was all a bit, well,
if you're not familiar with that world,
(05:33):
it can be very difficult to appreciate all the various factors at play.
Play pressure wanting to be part of the team not wanting to be seen as the odd one out.
Getting involved in behavior but you wouldn't get involved in were it not for those circumstances,
(05:59):
bonding initiation and
you know downright inappropriate sexualized
behavior so i'm sort
of setting a sort of background from where
we come from when we have to get involved in
these cases because someone complains that they've
(06:20):
been hurt and obviously we listen very
carefully to what they tell us and we have to
advise them as to whether or not there's a legal case and
what action they can take and so on but
you know we're lawyers and we're having to look in into a sort of closed world
in many ways often many months if not years after the events complained of and
(06:44):
try and just try and untangle what exactly um has been going on because you again,
some of it can be.
Gray areas you know if one person's sexual
harassment is seen by somebody
else's oh well this is what we always do it's just boys
(07:06):
being boys sort of thing well this is this is the real issue that you know and
i think in some respects there's definitely different generational thoughts
on this because i know how you feel on it and the discussions that we have and
that i've done And a lot of articles, a lot of media,
if any of our listeners are interested, I've just done an article which is published
(07:29):
on the Hugh James website in regards to, it was in support of the Female Veterans
Alliance, which Hugh James sponsored a workshop.
And it was specifically in regards to military sexual trauma,
is that I just don't have any time for it. I think we're now in a generation
where women and men should be treated as equal.
(07:50):
And, you know, the armed forces are still known as the boys club and boys banter.
And that when complaints are made and we're not specifically just talking about
when women make complaints here, we're talking about other men making complaints as well,
is that it's not taken seriously because it is part of the initiation and the
boys club and you've got to be part of the team.
And I understand if you are in the military, you know, the people that you're
(08:13):
serving with, you know, are effectively your lifeline.
So you've got to have a good, strong bond, especially if you're potentially
going to be in a war situation.
Situation but i don't think the individuals that
you know training you know that may have been their
career that they've wanted from a young child should then be put
into circumstances where you know they are
(08:34):
treated quite badly the extent that
they are going to end up suffering potential psychological injury
now the one thing that this report
well that you know that the media have discussed is
that the fact that she was waiting 18 months and it
well she this happened she reported 18 months and she's
still waiting at the time of we're recording this she's still waiting now
(08:57):
one of the things that I've campaigned against and you know talked about strongly
is there's got to be in any form of armed services a clear route to reporting
allegations for them to be dealt with independently so it's not you know the
individual in charge of you directly above you.
Know if there's no one above them to report to if that's the individual that's
(09:19):
causing the harm that individual is going to be.
Stuck ultimately we are going to potentially
lose fantastic service people you
know that are there to protect us you know
and there's got to be transparency in regards to
how the armed forces deal with complaints
(09:40):
because you know we've seen
that a lot of concerns are that it's swept under the
carpet it's not dealt with the individual is then
you know ostracized and they're treated differently and then they're forced
to leave and that then goes hand in hand
with people not reporting their abuse because they don't want to go into that
cycle of not you know not being believed or you know being forced out which
(10:03):
means the behavior then continues because there's no reprimand for it so nothing
changes there's got to be some change for any progress to be made
and that's what I've always said now it's much easier to be said than done I'm sure.
But I think you know her being deemed as a whistleblower it's quite strong you
(10:24):
know she's just voicing what she suffered you know she had a she had a long
career she joined the Royal Navy in 2011 and you know she decided that she was
going to leave I think she she leaves she reports
in 2002 and then leaves in 2000 sorry 2022 and then leaves in 2023 so you know
12 years into her career she then feels she has to to leave which is a huge
(10:49):
shame for somebody who's obviously very passionate about their job if they've
been in that role for that amount of time.
Exactly yes yeah sorry the
only thing that i then was going to say is as we
we often talk about civil claims and losses in regards to not just the psychological
injury or personal injury but associated losses now the potential that she's
(11:10):
probably lost potentially a rather large pension you know because of behavior
that she's suffered and duly.
Indeed, and there's another point that needs to be made, which is,
as I understand it, the armed forces in the UK are undermanned.
(11:32):
We're not at our, you know, optimum level because there's a problem with recruitment. Recruitment.
So if my understanding of this is correct,
that there is a problem with recruitment and we're not at full strength,
these sorts of reports don't help because it sends out the wrong message to
(11:53):
both young men and young women who are thinking about a career in the armed
forces, which is commendable.
And you know i know that that
there can be fantastic careers in the
armed forces and you know it's a a very
worthy thing to do it's a credit to the country and the country needs young
(12:14):
people in the armed forces for obvious reasons but this these kinds of stories
send out the wrong message because a young person hearing about all of this
is think would be thinking what What am I getting myself into?
Well, especially when we're talking about specifically World Navy,
(12:35):
you know, nuclear sub, you're away from your family.
You're effectively trapped in a situation.
It's not that you can just up and leave.
You know, this must be terrible for the individual or, you know,
groups of people that are suffering this.
And, you know, it's going to be a long standing issue for that individual.
(12:58):
It yeah i mean i just think
there's a lot more we've talked about the armed forces
quite a lot last year in the podcast and
you know it just seems to be similar themes coming
through throughout that the behavior is deemed acceptable because it was a boys
club and you know an element is that women are coming into the armed forces
(13:21):
and that's causing a difficult dynamic whereas Whereas actually it should just
be that times are changing and attitudes definitely need to change.
Indeed, indeed. And, you know, we've seen cases recently where we've been instructed,
not just the Royal Navy, but the Army and the Royal Air Force too.
And it's an issue, not just in the UK, but there's been, you know,
(13:47):
reported, it's been reported extensively in Australia as well.
Problems of sexual harassment and so
on as well it's it's not
just a UK issue but um
but sticking with the UK I you know the cases that we see there are you know
(14:07):
common themes you know it's this this moving through this sort of prism of banter boys being boys.
Initiation and so on this is the way we behave and so on and you know these common themes,
(14:28):
keep popping up and we have to appreciate that like you're saying times have
changed and attitudes have changed and it's in everybody's interest that you know this kind of.
Behavior cannot be justified in any shape or form it can't just be accepted
oh this is yes You know, initiation.
(14:50):
Bonding, whatever you want to call it is, you know, it's it probably never was
actually acceptable because.
You know, because of the cases we see the young men concerned and young women
concerned didn't really consent to what was taking place.
They they felt compelled to take
part because of the sheer pressure that
(15:13):
they were coming under to to conform and
not rock the boat and not to be ostracized and
all this sort of thing and i think we need to
really differentiate between the you
know we're saying boys club but you know the
initiation and as i say i am under no illusion that
you know when you are going through your training you'll put
(15:35):
with your team you need to have these close bonds with individuals
because you know they will potentially be saving your
life at some stage you know you're going to go through some hardship with
people and you're going to spend a hell of a lot of time with them so
I understand that and when we're talking about initiations and things like
that it's just to be clear so our listeners are aware that
the types of things that have come up and it
(15:55):
was in regards to a BBC report from October 2022 were
instances where you know women were being
forced to perform sex acts on individuals colleagues
drinking and then going into rooms and raping individuals you know this is going
far and beyond you know being made to drink shots or something you know this
(16:15):
is really extreme sexual violence and behavior that anybody in normal society
would not class as acceptable you know real extremes here.
Indeed so we better
bring this podcast to an end as always
if anyone has got any concerns thoughts
(16:36):
or questions then please do not hesitate to contact danny or me or any other
member of the team here at hugh james we'll be pleased to talk to you and we
can always um speak to you in confidence of course and you know we appreciate
these conversations have to be confidential in
(16:56):
nature so have no concern on that score
so if you have a question or concern please do
not hesitate to contact us and of course if you feel that you have an idea for
a future podcast we'd be pleased to hear from you too as regards that so bringing
this podcast to an end it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from danny bye listeners,
(17:23):
Thank you for listening to this episode of HJ Talks About Abuse.
You can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player.
If you'd like to speak to us about something you've heard today,
we'd love to hear from you.
Email us at aboutabuse at hjtalks.co.uk.
Music.
(00:09):
To the HJ Talks About Abuse podcast, the podcast where we talk about sexual
abuse cases and hope that it will assist listeners in openly discussing topics
which have been ignored for too long.
This podcast is brought to you by the abuse team at Hugh James.
We are lawyers, so we tend to speak about the legal aspects of abuse cases,
but we aren't too shy to speak up about the broader issues faced by survivors of sexual abuse too.
(00:33):
We hope that you find it interesting, but more than that, if you are a survivor
of sexual abuse, We hope that you find our discussion empowering.
Hello, my name is Alan Collins. I am the partner who heads up the abuse team at Hugh James.
Welcome to this latest podcast where we're going to be talking about sexual
(00:55):
abuse allegations in the Royal Navy.
I'm joined in this podcast by my colleague Danielle Vincent.
Hi, Danny. Hi, Alan. Thank you, Danny.
So before we get underway with this latest podcast, I need to remind you that
these podcasts can contain distressing subjects and material.
(01:18):
We're talking about sexual abuse and everything that goes with that.
And quite understandably, it can be distressing, upsetting, and so on.
So, if you think you're going to be troubled by what we're discussing in this
podcast, now's the time to switch off and do something else.
Otherwise, please do stay with us.
(01:41):
So, right, the subject matter is sexual abuse allegations in the Royal Navy.
And we thought that we would talk about that because of some recent media coverage.
Headline, there's sexual assault, sexual harassment in the Royal Navy.
And in particular, this whistleblower by the name of Sophie Brook says within the submarine service.
(02:10):
And as I understand it, Sophie Brooke is a former Royal Navy submarine naval
officer and is now described as a whistleblower who has claimed that she has
been left in limbo and let down by the way that her sexual abuse allegations have been dealt with.
It is reported that Sophie who
(02:31):
could have become the first female captain on
a submarine left the Royal Navy after she claimed she suffered hostility and
sexual harassment during her period of service and reported her allegations
of sexual harassment and assault some 18 months ago now all of this.
(02:54):
And we sound um i'm treating any of this lightly because i'm
not but all of this sort of has echoes of i'm
sure if i cast my mind back to complaints
and allegations that have sort of flowed from
ever from whenever it was but serving on
a royal navy ship including
(03:15):
a submarine and was sort of opened up to women
because obviously it was a sort of male preserve historically and i just had
in the back of my mind reports of complaints and allegations going back some
time and of course you and i danny have dealt with quite a number of cases over the years which have
(03:39):
had a military background and
i think in particular we've had we've i've dealt
with lots of cases where you have
allegations of sexual
abuse and inappropriate behavior on the
part of an individual or groups of individuals where it's difficult sometimes
(04:05):
to sort out what was banter and horseplay initiation ceremonies and that kind of thing from.
You know sexual assault now those who are sort of tuning in and listening to
me may think what's he on about but being objectively and thinking about is
(04:29):
there a case here you have to try and untangle.
What is often a closed world and
for those who are not familiar with life in the services it can be difficult
to untangle what exactly has been going on you know I remember a particular
(04:51):
case again is involving very young sailors,
And they were getting involved in, I think they were described as shower parties.
And quite a number of the sort of more older younger lads, or ratings,
(05:13):
got into serious trouble.
And I think, casting my mind back, there may well have been a couple who got
chucked out of the Royal Navy.
But trying to untangle what was going on, it was all a bit, well,
if you're not familiar with that world,
(05:33):
it can be very difficult to appreciate all the various factors at play.
Play pressure wanting to be part of the team not wanting to be seen as the odd one out.
Getting involved in behavior but you wouldn't get involved in were it not for those circumstances,
(05:59):
bonding initiation and
you know downright inappropriate sexualized
behavior so i'm sort
of setting a sort of background from where
we come from when we have to get involved in
these cases because someone complains that they've
(06:20):
been hurt and obviously we listen very
carefully to what they tell us and we have to
advise them as to whether or not there's a legal case and
what action they can take and so on but
you know we're lawyers and we're having to look in into a sort of closed world
in many ways often many months if not years after the events complained of and
(06:44):
try and just try and untangle what exactly um has been going on because you again,
some of it can be.
Gray areas you know if one person's sexual
harassment is seen by somebody
else's oh well this is what we always do it's just boys
(07:06):
being boys sort of thing well this is this is the real issue that you know and
i think in some respects there's definitely different generational thoughts
on this because i know how you feel on it and the discussions that we have and
that i've done And a lot of articles, a lot of media,
if any of our listeners are interested, I've just done an article which is published
(07:29):
on the Hugh James website in regards to, it was in support of the Female Veterans
Alliance, which Hugh James sponsored a workshop.
And it was specifically in regards to military sexual trauma,
is that I just don't have any time for it. I think we're now in a generation
where women and men should be treated as equal.
(07:50):
And, you know, the armed forces are still known as the boys club and boys banter.
And that when complaints are made and we're not specifically just talking about
when women make complaints here, we're talking about other men making complaints as well,
is that it's not taken seriously because it is part of the initiation and the
boys club and you've got to be part of the team.
And I understand if you are in the military, you know, the people that you're
(08:13):
serving with, you know, are effectively your lifeline.
So you've got to have a good, strong bond, especially if you're potentially
going to be in a war situation.
Situation but i don't think the individuals that
you know training you know that may have been their
career that they've wanted from a young child should then be put
into circumstances where you know they are
(08:34):
treated quite badly the extent that
they are going to end up suffering potential psychological injury
now the one thing that this report
well that you know that the media have discussed is
that the fact that she was waiting 18 months and it
well she this happened she reported 18 months and she's
still waiting at the time of we're recording this she's still waiting now
(08:57):
one of the things that I've campaigned against and you know talked about strongly
is there's got to be in any form of armed services a clear route to reporting
allegations for them to be dealt with independently so it's not you know the
individual in charge of you directly above you.
Know if there's no one above them to report to if that's the individual that's
(09:19):
causing the harm that individual is going to be.
Stuck ultimately we are going to potentially
lose fantastic service people you
know that are there to protect us you know
and there's got to be transparency in regards to
how the armed forces deal with complaints
(09:40):
because you know we've seen
that a lot of concerns are that it's swept under the
carpet it's not dealt with the individual is then
you know ostracized and they're treated differently and then they're forced
to leave and that then goes hand in hand
with people not reporting their abuse because they don't want to go into that
cycle of not you know not being believed or you know being forced out which
(10:03):
means the behavior then continues because there's no reprimand for it so nothing
changes there's got to be some change for any progress to be made
and that's what I've always said now it's much easier to be said than done I'm sure.
But I think you know her being deemed as a whistleblower it's quite strong you
(10:24):
know she's just voicing what she suffered you know she had a she had a long
career she joined the Royal Navy in 2011 and you know she decided that she was
going to leave I think she she leaves she reports
in 2002 and then leaves in 2000 sorry 2022 and then leaves in 2023 so you know
12 years into her career she then feels she has to to leave which is a huge
(10:49):
shame for somebody who's obviously very passionate about their job if they've
been in that role for that amount of time.
Exactly yes yeah sorry the
only thing that i then was going to say is as we
we often talk about civil claims and losses in regards to not just the psychological
injury or personal injury but associated losses now the potential that she's
(11:10):
probably lost potentially a rather large pension you know because of behavior
that she's suffered and duly.
Indeed, and there's another point that needs to be made, which is,
as I understand it, the armed forces in the UK are undermanned.
(11:32):
We're not at our, you know, optimum level because there's a problem with recruitment. Recruitment.
So if my understanding of this is correct,
that there is a problem with recruitment and we're not at full strength,
these sorts of reports don't help because it sends out the wrong message to
(11:53):
both young men and young women who are thinking about a career in the armed
forces, which is commendable.
And you know i know that that
there can be fantastic careers in the
armed forces and you know it's a a very
worthy thing to do it's a credit to the country and the country needs young
(12:14):
people in the armed forces for obvious reasons but this these kinds of stories
send out the wrong message because a young person hearing about all of this
is think would be thinking what What am I getting myself into?
Well, especially when we're talking about specifically World Navy,
(12:35):
you know, nuclear sub, you're away from your family.
You're effectively trapped in a situation.
It's not that you can just up and leave.
You know, this must be terrible for the individual or, you know,
groups of people that are suffering this.
And, you know, it's going to be a long standing issue for that individual.
(12:58):
It yeah i mean i just think
there's a lot more we've talked about the armed forces
quite a lot last year in the podcast and
you know it just seems to be similar themes coming
through throughout that the behavior is deemed acceptable because it was a boys
club and you know an element is that women are coming into the armed forces
(13:21):
and that's causing a difficult dynamic whereas Whereas actually it should just
be that times are changing and attitudes definitely need to change.
Indeed, indeed. And, you know, we've seen cases recently where we've been instructed,
not just the Royal Navy, but the Army and the Royal Air Force too.
And it's an issue, not just in the UK, but there's been, you know,
(13:47):
reported, it's been reported extensively in Australia as well.
Problems of sexual harassment and so
on as well it's it's not
just a UK issue but um
but sticking with the UK I you know the cases that we see there are you know
(14:07):
common themes you know it's this this moving through this sort of prism of banter boys being boys.
Initiation and so on this is the way we behave and so on and you know these common themes,
(14:28):
keep popping up and we have to appreciate that like you're saying times have
changed and attitudes have changed and it's in everybody's interest that you know this kind of.
Behavior cannot be justified in any shape or form it can't just be accepted
oh this is yes You know, initiation.
(14:50):
Bonding, whatever you want to call it is, you know, it's it probably never was
actually acceptable because.
You know, because of the cases we see the young men concerned and young women
concerned didn't really consent to what was taking place.
They they felt compelled to take
part because of the sheer pressure that
(15:13):
they were coming under to to conform and
not rock the boat and not to be ostracized and
all this sort of thing and i think we need to
really differentiate between the you
know we're saying boys club but you know the
initiation and as i say i am under no illusion that
you know when you are going through your training you'll put
(15:35):
with your team you need to have these close bonds with individuals
because you know they will potentially be saving your
life at some stage you know you're going to go through some hardship with
people and you're going to spend a hell of a lot of time with them so
I understand that and when we're talking about initiations and things like
that it's just to be clear so our listeners are aware that
the types of things that have come up and it
(15:55):
was in regards to a BBC report from October 2022 were
instances where you know women were being
forced to perform sex acts on individuals colleagues
drinking and then going into rooms and raping individuals you know this is going
far and beyond you know being made to drink shots or something you know this
(16:15):
is really extreme sexual violence and behavior that anybody in normal society
would not class as acceptable you know real extremes here.
Indeed so we better
bring this podcast to an end as always
if anyone has got any concerns thoughts
(16:36):
or questions then please do not hesitate to contact danny or me or any other
member of the team here at hugh james we'll be pleased to talk to you and we
can always um speak to you in confidence of course and you know we appreciate
these conversations have to be confidential in
(16:56):
nature so have no concern on that score
so if you have a question or concern please do
not hesitate to contact us and of course if you feel that you have an idea for
a future podcast we'd be pleased to hear from you too as regards that so bringing
this podcast to an end it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from danny bye listeners,
(17:23):
Thank you for listening to this episode of HJ Talks About Abuse.
You can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player.
If you'd like to speak to us about something you've heard today,
we'd love to hear from you.
Email us at aboutabuse at hjtalks.co.uk.
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