May 7, 2024 • 33 mins
This week we speak with Kerry Diaz, a former practicing attorney, turned nonprofit CEO, board member, entrepreneur, and now nonprofit consultant. Together, we discuss Kerry's transition from board member to CEO, succession planning best practices, and traits that make an effective nonprofit CEO and board member.
Contact Kerry:
(561)-307-0844
Timestamps:
00:00 Introducing Kerry Diaz and her winding road to nonprofit consultancy
05:30 How did having a legal background help you in your career?
06:50 Did serving on the board help you become a better CEO?
09:00 Are you a better consultant because you have been a board member and CEO?
10:00 What are some succession planning best practices?
12:34 Who do you let know about succession planning?
15:25 Board succession planning best practices
19:30 What makes an effective board member?
20:45 What makes an effective CEO?
21:45 Board members coming from entrepreneurship
24:45 How often should a CEO/ED communicate with board members?
26:40 Board Chair-CEO relationships
27:40 Should you have personal/social friendships with board members?
30:30 Advice for nonprofit board members?
32:15 Reach out to Kerry
33:00 Recapping with Read
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On this week's episode, the I 501(c)You the podcast
for nonprofit board members,I'm interviewing Kerry Diaz.
Kerry's actually an attorney.
Didn't practice. As you will hear,at least for very long.
She had spent some time workingbehind the scenes of the Florida Capitol
and then get into the nonprofit space,and has since then really transformed
the east coast of Floridaand as a highly respected consultant.
(00:21):
So join me now as I interview Kerry Diaz.
Hey, I want to jump in real quick.
Somebody asked me other day,what does the quarterly company do?
Well, we do three things for nonprofits.
One, we facilitate meetings.
Yes, like board retreats
where we discuss governance and strategywith all the members of the board.
Number two, advise CEOs and help themas they make decisions
and implement actionsto drive their mission.
(00:42):
And then finally, we produce podcastssuch as this one, but also
for a number of nonprofits to help youget the word out, get your message out.
So if you're interestedin any of these services,
please feel free to reach outto Michael@thecorleycompany.com.
Now back to the podcast
on this week's episode I501(c) youthe podcast for nonprofit board members.
I'm gonna interview Kerry Diaz.
(01:03):
Kerry and I actually met
probably a little over ten years agowhen she was CEO of Quantum Foundation.
And then she kind of movedon, took a different path in her career,
and then came backas CEO of the Lord's Place.
but I'm going to pause here.
And, Kerry, please introduce yourselfand tell the audience a little bit
about you and your backgroundand how you got to be involved
in the nonprofit space.
(01:24):
Well, how much time do you have?
So, like many people in the nonprofitworld, I kind of came at it sideways.
and I think there'sa little bit of serendipity involved
when most peopleget involved in nonprofits.
So I'm actually trained as a lawyer,licensed to practice in three states,
practiced for about a hot minute, decidedthat really wasn't for me.
(01:45):
and as luck would have it,I had run into a friend,
a friend who was working ona congressional campaign
that had a lot of policiesI was interested in.
So I went right from thereto working on a congressional campaign.
Got me involved in that.
I then worked in the Florida Legislature,
so I was kind of on the other sideof making the sausage on the inside.
How do I develop policiesfrom the front end?
(02:07):
And then, from there, I went to work
for a nonprofit, that represented homecare and hospice providers.
So I was in the advocacyworld out in California.
Now, this allowed meto see kind of both sides of the table
how the policies were made,how to influence them, but
also both sides of committees and boards.
(02:30):
Because I was serving on some committeesand boards there,
but I was also staffing them.
So that was my first entry intohow does this dynamic work?
I know
most of your listeners are board members,so I have seen both sides of that coin.
From there, I came back to Floridaand I ran a small nonprofit,
(02:51):
which was funded by the Quantum
Foundation that introduced me to them.
I then left that project.
They asked meto be on their grants committee,
then chair their grants committeethan be on their board.
and then they had a
vacancy, and they asked me to throw my hatin the ring, and there you go.
So I was there for three years,
(03:13):
which was great.
it was a transition time.
And I know we'll talk laterabout some transition items, but
I'm one of those weird creaturesthat loves transitions.
I embrace change,which is a little freaky.
but it works for me.
so after that,
I actually went toI went open to business for six years.
(03:38):
So little small business.
So I think that helped.
Also,I know your background is in business.
and we've discussed that nonprofitscan't be run like business, but having
some acumen around financial statements,accountability policies and procedures
that are really tight,that stand up to legal scrutiny, etc..
I think that's a good background.
(03:58):
and then went over to CostaRica for a year with my kids.
Totally different.
But what it did is it said, hey,look at all the people in need.
Are you
really supposed to be running a businessor do you need to get back to nonprofit?
So, in addition to itbeing a wonderful experience for my kids
and our family, it also said, Kerry,you need to go back to nonprofit.
(04:21):
So when I came back, I started
consulting right out of the gate.
I had a three month engagementwith the Lord's Place,
which turned into two yearsand three months.
and perhaps because they loved me,
but probably more because of whatthey were going through at the time.
(04:41):
So major construction projects,
multiple major construction projects,
as well as the CEO
had health crisisand was undergoing cancer treatment.
So it was not something I could leave.
And I've had a respect and passionfor that organization for a very,
very long time.Been dating back to my quantum days.
So, I said, I'min, I'm in the construction is done.
(05:05):
She's healthy.
Now it's time for me to leave.
and I still havea very good relationship with them.
So once that first consulting job back inthe gate, was over,
I've taken a little time,and then I put myself out there again
and have been discussingsome consulting gigs
and are working on some successionplanning with organizations.
So that brings you up to today.
(05:27):
Very windy road.
Thank you for that. And you?
Well, it sure is.
And what itwhat a background you've had in
I was fascinated,of course, when I read your bio,
when you and I spoke beforehand
about you being an attorney, and I said,no, not quite, not that contrary,
but it really gave you some insightand some perspective on things.
So how did that that legal,that law school background help you
(05:49):
throughout your career and particularlywhen you were CEO of, the foundation?
Well,I think it's always good to have, a lawyer
that knowshow to read a contract in your hip pocket,
especially for nonprofits that typicallycan't afford a full time in-house counsel.
And not that I ever actedin the capacity of
of in-house counsel,but I certainly knew enough to flag it.
(06:11):
And then get it to an expert attorneyin that area.
I think it also makes you approach thingsin an analytical way.
I am I am truly all heart,
but I know when I need to put the hat on.
you really need to poke holes in this.
You really need to find the waysthat this can go sideways
(06:32):
so that the nonprofit is better informed.
And then whatever solution to thatthere is to that
the CEO and and others can make that.
But at least you've pointed outwhat the possible pitfalls are of a move,
or a document or an arrangementthat's going to be put forth.
Oh, that makes sense.
Now, before you became CEO of quantum,you were on the board.
(06:52):
Do you think serving on the board helpedyou be a better CEO
and then also at work,can you talk a little bit
about the two rolesand the dynamics there?
Because I find this fascinating.
So yeah.
so I was actually on the board,
became CEO and stayed on the board, left
being CEO, stayed on the boarda very brief time.
(07:15):
I think it is very difficultto go forward.
CEO, CEO, board, either way you look at itis it can be a treacherous path.
I think the reason it worked for me
is because before I was on the board,I ran a nonprofit.
I had experience, so
I had a deep understandingof how that really worked.
(07:39):
And there were, you know, no disillusionabout how that really worked.
Now, I stayed on the board, really,just for a transition period.
I think you need to get outof the way of the new CEO.
100%.
but I also wanted the rest of the board
to have a period of timeto feel comfortable with that transition.
(08:01):
Aftera couple months, it was time for me to go.
I think as a former executiveat a nonprofit, it is very hard
to go in and serve on the boardbecause you know how the sausage is made.
To use my legislative example again,there is, as you
know, a very clear linebetween what the board does
(08:22):
and what the staff does instaff is operational.
Board is strategicand fiscally responsible.
Once you know the depth of the operations,it is very hard
to sit on a board and hold backbecause you do have knowledge.
You do have thoughtsthat can be very insightful, but it's very
(08:42):
it can be very disruptiveto the way the board works as an organism.
Boy, that's very interesting.
And that makes a lot of sense.
So so then you go start a businessand you come back and now you've got this
three month engagementthat turns into longer than that.
So let's dissect the latter half of thata little bit.
So you come back.
(09:03):
Are you a better consultantbecause you had served on the board
because you hadbeen a CEO of a foundation?
I think
so I wouldargue because I've seen both sides of it.
and I know how that board member feelswhen there's a presentation going on.
I know how that staff memberfeels when you're giving a presentation.
And although have in a variety of careers,I think the hallmark
(09:26):
or the tie that bindsall of them is I go into a situation
always looking for a everyoneto walk out of that conversation,
that situationfeeling like they got what they needed.
Right.
So that helps going in as a board member,understanding
where the staff is coming fromand it helps going in as a staff member,
(09:48):
because I knowwhat the board's looking for.
So I would argue that it certainly does.
So. So you come in as CEO of a three monthgig and you stay longer.
And so let's talka little bit about succession planning
because something happened and you wereyou needed to stay.
So as you take a step backand you think about your succession
(10:08):
planning at the board leveland at the CEO level,
can you talk about your observationsand maybe what you would say
are some now best practicesthat organizations should adhere to?
Absolutely.
And I want to give a caveat here.
this is all from learned experience.
So in the moment,I may not have been acting this way
100% of the time.
(10:30):
but I would say that succession planning,
which I may have already told you,I hate that word.
it really is, you know,
how do you positionthe organization for success?
How do you make the organization notdependent on or defined by one individual?
So we discussed about
(10:50):
the word intentional from dayone of sitting in that seat of CEO.
How are you preparing for the possibilityyou may be out for a day, a week,
a month, or that your term ends dueto some catastrophic event?
So I think you plan from thatfrom day one.
So you are bringing your staff along,giving them opportunities
(11:12):
to rise in leadership, risein visibility in the community,
and you get the opportunity
as CEO to step back and say,what are those things like, only I can do?
I mean, have you met a nonprofit CEO
who thinks they have spare time?
They're overwhelmed.
They're overwhelmed.
(11:34):
and I think part of itis that they were entrusted with caring.
This organizationthrough on the journey being successful.
The board is relying on them to do that.
However,I think then some of that responsibility
might get tied up with fear or ego
of letting go a little bit of sharing
(11:57):
the responsibilityappropriately when appropriate.
And if you go in with the mindsetthat from day one,
something may happen in not out of fear,but what's the opportunity?
What are the moments of opportunityfor other staff?
So if something does happen,that organization will be ready
(12:18):
and I free myself up
to dothe things I am uniquely qualified to do.
And this is wonderful.
I'm actually just taking notes thatthat was the reason for the the pause.
And so going in with the mindsetright off the bat
to position the organization for successbeyond you.
(12:39):
Really tough to do.
Do youdo you talk to other people about it.
Do you do you let staff know aboutany succession planning that's in place?
Do you keep that close to the vest? Workwith the board?
Well, what was your approachor what would you recommend?
So I think there's two differentkinds of succession planning.
There is the document that everyone hasthat's out of date
(13:02):
that, you know, like the strategic plan.
that's hard to revisit,but I think it becomes a living document.
Right.
So you hire the CEO in their deliverables.
There is intentional successionplanning for the C-suite.
And organization is in the delivers.
It is on a quarterlycheck in on the board list.
So that's the conversationbetween the CEO and the board.
(13:24):
Right.
Is do you have the piecesand puzzles in place now?
I would argue at this pointthe board does not need to know it is
John Smith or Susie Hue
who is slated to expand in advocacy or in,
community development.
I don't think they need to know
(13:45):
that because, again,this is an operational issue, right?
But I think they need to know
that they or that the CEOis intentionally working on it.
Now, the CEO, I believe, needs
to identify those members of her teamthat she can bring along.
He or she can bring alongand really mentor for them from day one.
(14:06):
And by mentor, I don't mean develop a planthat says, have you done this?
Have you done that?
I mean, getlet them get inside your head, right?
Like, nope, what did I do?Why did I do it?
Because then that gives them the skill.
When they're faced with an instance,a circumstance, something they need
to make a decision about,
they won't.
It won't look exactly like the onethat you presented to them.
(14:28):
Right?
But they'll know how you attacked itso they can take that skill set
and apply it towhatever comes up for them.
Back to the document.
I think if someone's name in successiondocument,
they better know.
I think if something
catastrophic happensand you get caught flat footed,
(14:51):
you may not want the added responseability.
Now here we have a written document that'sbinding on the board that names you.
you may not have focused
in your career, whatever leverageyou had to learn more about that area,
knowing that you were next in lineto handle whatever that task was.
(15:12):
So it gives you a little impetusand ownership over developing
your own skills around that issue,knowing that you're the backup plan.
Well stated.
And so when you think about successionplanning, let's just move up the chain,
I guess the organizational changea little bit to the board level.
You've seen it, you've lived it.
What what are some best practices forsuccession planning for the board chair?
(15:37):
Well, really any officer in the boardand even board members.
But the board chair.
And how far aheaddo you look towards that?
Just welcome your thoughts onthat as board members are listening.
Yeah, I think you need to plan far inadvance it in in it doesn't have to.
This next statementI may say doesn't have to be public.
I think the CEO has to have some thingsin their hip pocket.
(15:58):
Right.
You know, the skill set, you know,if something happens, even if it's,
you know, the the vice chairis supposed to step in for the chair,
but then something happensto both of them.
You know who's strong,you know who can step in. Right.
and I thinkyou have to give people opportunities.
It may not be the personthat speaks out the loudest.
It may not be the finance committee chair,which for some reason
(16:21):
is a very popular candidatefor board chair.
But, you know, it's fine to mix it up.
and I think you get those interesting,strong people
with different approaches,by the way, you recruit for the board.
And I, in my experience, a lot of board
recruiting is done by other board members,which is amazing, right?
(16:43):
You get people,they're prevented people they know, people
they know are going to show upand be involved.
but a lot of timesyou just get more of the same.
I think, why not open this process up?
If you trust your second, third andcommand on a staff level, your C-suite,
and you have a
trusting relationship with them,why not ask their opinion?
(17:07):
What about your other trusted partners
that you can have a discreet conversationwith in the community?
Right.
You now have completely
opened up your opportunityto build a bench,
even if it's not a benchyou use today or tomorrow.
Three years from now,the accountant on your board leaves.
(17:30):
You also have the only minorityfemale leave
you go back to your list.
You call back your contactswho were interested in helping you.
You have now have a listput together that you control.
Now, I'm not saying that the CEO or
the boardchair is going to let go of this control,
but be open to input from others.
but that, again, is my approach.
(17:52):
I think that,
you know, you have to be open.
I used to say to my teamall the time, do nothing alone,
right?
This is a community solution,a community nonprofit
responding to in partnershipwith the community.
So what is it that you do every daythat you can have that same mindset?
Ultimately, the boardand the CEO are responsible for that,
(18:13):
whatever the organization does. Right.
But how do you bring others along?
It's you don't have to shine the spotlight
on just one personor on just one organization.
So so what really and this is fascinating.
So chair succession starts
way early in the processwith the recruiting of board members.
(18:33):
Absolutely.
And there's a CEOyou should always be in quote
recruiting board membersor positioning it.
And I love the factwhat you share with me.
And come to find out where a mutual friendyou've got a trusted friend
over in West Palm Beachor whom I happen to know.
And you said you call her sometimesto vet people and just run the idea by her
and is she is sheand the foundation in the world now,
(18:55):
but she's just connected.
So you'll say,what do you think about so-and-so?
So that helps you through or helped youthrough your vetting process?
Right, absolutely.
And so wewe all need that board of advisors,
whether it's a real or a theoretical boardof advisors to bounce ideas off of.
So CEOs out there, you're always
recruiting, looking for prospectiveand future board members.
(19:18):
Yes, board members should do the same.
But the reality is a CEOis probably gonna outlive
most board members,right from a tenure perspective.
Right? Right. Correct.
So when you when you take a step backand you've been in both
those roles, CEO leadershipand then you've also been on the board,
what are some traitsthat make people effective?
Let's go to board.
First winner traitsthat make effective board members.
(19:42):
I think attentive, inquisitive,
curious, respectful.
That last one a little bit about that.
Yeah.
So I think you need to
I mean, just the nuts and bolts,read the materials,
do your own research,
be curious.
(20:02):
Come ask questions.
listen to other people's answersand questions on the board.
Digest that and don'tstep over the line into operations.
Know your place,which is immensely important.
Again, if something bad happenswith this nonprofit,
(20:22):
that board is in the spotlight, right?
So you do have a very, very,very important role.
And you do take it seriously.
but you have to stop shortof being concerned
about operational issuesunless there's a crisis,
unless there's malfeasance or something,something untoward is happening.
but but but don't be afraid ofbeing really curious and asking questions.
(20:44):
and how about traits for a CEO?
Well,I might be beating a drum here, but open,
willing to share,
and really focuses on buildingtrusting relationships.
I think that as CEOs
were so busy with so much,especially of a smaller
(21:06):
nonprofit, I mean, there'sso much on your plate, right?
I mean, the phone doesn't stop ringing.
People need you,
to step back and really investin relationships, in building trust,
because what that does is paydividends down the road.
Much like
starting with succession planning from dayone builds dividends down the road.
(21:26):
If you have that trusted relationship,there's almost nothing you can't do.
in an organization,you know, within constraints.
But right.
You can get so much more donewhen the people you work with
and the people you partner with
in your board trustwhat you're saying and what you're doing.
and so Boardman, this is interesting.
(21:46):
So board members,you come from the business world, right?
They'll sit on a nonprofit boardsometimes.
I've observedthey have a tough time understanding this.
The whole collaboration,the building trust.
We have to go slower and broader.
We can't just go straight forwardwith an idea like they can
can speak to that.
They gotthey get to make all the decisions. Right.
(22:06):
It's really I mean, I would gather thatthere are a lot of entrepreneurs or C
and or CEOs on boards, right?
They have control over their overtheir schedule.
They have the ability to be flexibleand attend, which is amazing.
But you're right, they do usuallymake a decision and that it's implemented.
There is no let'ssee how this works with this.
(22:27):
Oh, there's this governmental agenciesthat involved.
Let's have a meeting. Let's make surethat we're working together.
and, you know, we keep talking aboutnot having enough time.
Well, let's get the CEO to sharesome responsibilities and control,
and let's get to CEO working closelywith the board, which they already do.
But putting this on the agenda,and I know it is not as easy as that.
(22:50):
I don't mean to sound flippant,but really spending time
with teaching themwhat it means to be a board member,
which is so uniquely differentthan being a board member of a
for profit corporation and,and and or being the CEO or some other,
executive within, for profit corporation.
(23:11):
so true.
Well stated.
And, and a lot of my when I speakto boards, it's really on that topic.
And the stain your swim linedon't get in the operations.
And if
I love
entrepreneurs, but typicallythe entrepreneurs are the worst at that.
They want to fix a fixerand they're good at it.
Fix a problem was addressed.Let's do it now.
And they kind ofget in the weeds sometimes.
(23:31):
But that person is alsoan interesting person on your board,
because what you need to figure out ishow do you give them a defined task.
Right. So,
I'm going to use an examplethat's close to home.
So, you have a hotel executiveon your board.
It's an entrepreneur
used to getting things done, wants to dostuff, wants to do stuff.
Well, you're remodeling,an apartment complex.
(23:54):
You need furniture.
Give them that job.
Go sauce it.
Get us a deal.
Bring us produce stuff from your whatever.
We'd love for you to just. Just do that.
Consult.
If there's a,
you know, a specific concerns aboutthe population need special, special need.
But just let them have that.
(24:14):
there might be instances where you can tag
board members that have that mindsetand want to be helpful
with specific thingsthat don't have to do with operations
or strategy,that are time and function limited.
And, you know, they can they canthen report right back to the CEO.
And it's an opportunityto build a relationship with them
that's a little bit closer.
(24:34):
And some trust I trust you, you trust me.
Oh I like that.
And so as a CEOand when you run the foundation
and let me actually rise itup, best practices, how often should
an executive director CEO communicatewith individual board members?
You know,we know we've got the board meetings,
but have you observed any best practicesfor ongoing outreach and regular outreach?
(24:56):
I think you need regular outreach.
I did I mean, I would meet with
each one of the board membersprobably twice a year.
lunch or something that that is more openended, not a formal setting,
so that they can share where they thinkwe are without an audience.
and more importantly, you can understandwhat are their needs.
And we talked about this a little bitbefore
(25:18):
really understandingwhat your board needs.
So if you're presenting
a new project to this boardand you want it to get approved,
if you have spent that time, you know that
Joe is really concerned about housing
and Mary is really concernedabout finances.
And also women's issues.
(25:39):
So when you put this together, you can goin knowing what makes it a win for them.
Not that you're going to be able to beable to manipulate it into a win for them.
But you can be conscientiousabout why they're there.
They're therebecause these are their concerns.
And that brought them to the board.
So you want to honorthose and just understand them.
It helps you move through that processat the board level much easier,
(26:03):
because you understandwhere they're coming from
and what their hot buttons are.
You know,very strategically managing your board.
And we talk about this,managing the board. And it sounds so,
and prescriptive,
but the reality is, look, every boardmember has got a different passion.
They want to serve. They want to help.
And it's your job as a CEO to understandwhere to to plug and play
and to manage accordingly.
(26:24):
because you're going to be the only one
with the overall viewpointof the organization.
You know, from a
programmatic perspective, even the boardchair won't have have that perspective.
So as we're starting to wind downa little bit, can you talk a little bit
about the board chair CEO relationshipand how that needs to be in place to be,
help the organization be effective?
(26:46):
I mean, we can't overstate it.
It is critical.
All the issues we talked aboutreally start with the board members.
So if we want that successversus succession training to start
at the front end, you have to have yourboard chair bought into that.
anything that you're doing
really, you want to be in partnershipwith your, with your board chair.
(27:07):
So I would say that's obviously the mostcritical relationship with the CEO
after staff.
I would put it after staff.
That to both. Do the work.
They're the ones who do the workevery day.
If you don't feed and water your staff,you have nothing to report,
you have no success, you have nothingfor the board to be proud of
and for them to get involved in, etc.
(27:29):
so that was a little segue,but I would say
feed and water the stafffirst, your board chair second.
and then I canI ask your opinion on something?
Oh, absolutely.We're gonna turn the table.
She she threatened to do this. EverybodyI did.
So I have always had,
good relationships with my board,friendly relationships with my board,
(27:51):
and some of them I knew previously,and we were friends. But,
I stopped
short of really socializing or really
being around the board, you know, like,calling them up, like, let's play tennis.
That kind of a thing?
primarily because I don't play tennis,but that's my example.
What are your thoughts?
(28:13):
Yeah.
yeah. Well, I know not to ask you to play.
Or maybe I should ask you to play tennis.
I don't I don't play either.
you know, I'm.
I'm old school in that regard.
I think there's a separationwhen you become a leader, there's,
a separationyou've got to be respectful of.
And while socializing is fine,
I think you got to be carefulnot to breach that line.
(28:33):
And it's just easier by, you know,arm's length.
Keep it to business.Doesn't mean it's ugly.
and it can be friendly.
And maybe you'll see them out at an event.
But to go socialize with, with eithera, you know, a subordinate,
if you will, or a board member,I would really refrain from that.
I just
maybe that's old school
thought, but it just seems to keep thethe lines crystal clear.
(28:55):
Because one thing,
if you start to get a little bittoo familiar with each other,
then they could creepinto the operational aspect of things.
And so as a CEO,I think you got to keep remembering
your responsibilityis to lead that organization.
And it is 24 hours a day.
I mean, you can't turn it onand turn it off.
Those those types of relationships are.
That's just that's old school.We must be the same age.
But yes, and I wouldI would completely agree with you.
(29:17):
I think what happens isthen it becomes more difficult
for the boardto hold the CEO accountable. Yes.
And it becomes more difficult for the CEOto hold the board accountable.
Yeah.
Now I'll say, right, because it'show do you hold friends accountable?
That's it's it's challenging.
Right? Yeah, absolutely.
I think and then and then you
(29:37):
you can develop biased viewsof what's being presented.
both ways.
and again,
I'm all for friendly,you know, relationships.
But I just I'm a little concerned about itgoing
the other way, much like what you said.
Well, for the reasons you stated,I've seen it where friends of have come on
(29:59):
and now they take over the CEO positionand they're friends with board members.
And, boy, there isn't there's
not the accountability that's necessaryto drive the organization forward.
You've got to use that accountabilityto build trust in the community.
And you know, and and people know it.
I mean, they'll know if there's some,
softness, if you will, just some easy,
(30:21):
aspect to thingsin those relationships. So.
Yeah.
So, so let me ask you this, Kerry,a final question.
So, this is podcast for board membersprimarily.
What advice do you have?
And you've touched on this a little bit
to board membersso that they can be very, very effective.
Yeah I mean, start with the easy stuff.
I, I've gone to a million board meetingswhere no one has read the materials,
(30:44):
you know,
and if you're on other boardsor you're out in the community,
don't be afraid to engage on the issuesso you become better informed
about what's going on in the community.
If you're on, you know, a women'smentoring board,
that doesn't mean the conversationhas to be about women's mentoring,
just knowing what's going onin the community at a broader level
can be very helpful to the boardas an organism
(31:06):
and as advice to the CEO.
make time for your CEO.
I know a lot of people are busy,but I think there was once or twice a year
touch basesthat are one on one are really important.
be respectful of your other board members.
You will not always agree.
however, if you listen,
(31:28):
there may be a viewpoint that you can,
get something out of that.
you will learn something from it.
And at the end of the day,you have to respect if you're going to
continue to operateeffectively together, and enjoy it
in January. It.
Right.
You have to be engaged in some instances.
(31:49):
You have to be active.
But don't overthinkyour level of activity.
Show up and be present.
And then then you'll experiencethe joy that serving on a nonprofit board
can certainly bring. Exactly. Enjoy it.
Yeah, well, I like that.
So, Kerry,how can people get in touch with you?
You through your
you out there that you're backin the consulting business a little bit.
(32:10):
If people want to reach out to you,how can they reach you?
well, they can reach me by phoneor by email, and I can give you that
to post with the show notes,or I can give it to you.
Now give itgive us an email now, and we'll do both.
Okay. Terrific.
It's, Kerry Diaz, KerryADiaz@gmail.com.
(32:31):
And my phone is five, 613070844.
Very good.
There you go, ladies.
And, Jim, if you want to reach outto Kerry, please go ahead and do so.
She is highly respected in the nonprofitconsulting community.
we got mutual friendsand just think the world over.
And, Kerry, thank you so much for today,for sharing your wisdom.
(32:51):
And I think we're better offbecause of it. So thank you.
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure to work with youas well as with read.
Have a great day.Great interview with Kerry Diaz.
Now this segment of recappingwith read, read.
What were your observations?
So my first observation,Kerry, re-emphasize for us the importance
of having the trust of your stakeholdersas the CEO.
(33:12):
She said.
There's almost nothing you can't do
if you have the trust of your boardand your staff.
Yeah. Trust is the CEO's currency.
And number two.
You are allowed to spend timeteaching the board members how they can be
better board members.And that's something that we often get,
engaged
in when we are doing bordertreats as well.
That's true. And number three.
(33:34):
The insightful commentthat the relationship with the CEO
and board chair actually might bethe second most important relationship
in the organizationafter the CEO and staff relationship.
Yeah, I thought that was interestingthe way she framed that.
So there you go,ladies and gentlemen, recapping with Read,
who was analyzing our interviewwith Kerry Diaz.
And we will I 501 see you next week.
On this week's episode, the I 501(c)You the podcast
for nonprofit board members,I'm interviewing Kerry Diaz.
Kerry's actually an attorney.
Didn't practice. As you will hear,at least for very long.
She had spent some time workingbehind the scenes of the Florida Capitol
and then get into the nonprofit space,and has since then really transformed
the east coast of Floridaand as a highly respected consultant.
(00:21):
So join me now as I interview Kerry Diaz.
Hey, I want to jump in real quick.
Somebody asked me other day,what does the quarterly company do?
Well, we do three things for nonprofits.
One, we facilitate meetings.
Yes, like board retreats
where we discuss governance and strategywith all the members of the board.
Number two, advise CEOs and help themas they make decisions
and implement actionsto drive their mission.
(00:42):
And then finally, we produce podcastssuch as this one, but also
for a number of nonprofits to help youget the word out, get your message out.
So if you're interestedin any of these services,
please feel free to reach outto Michael@thecorleycompany.com.
Now back to the podcast
on this week's episode I501(c) youthe podcast for nonprofit board members.
I'm gonna interview Kerry Diaz.
(01:03):
Kerry and I actually met
probably a little over ten years agowhen she was CEO of Quantum Foundation.
And then she kind of movedon, took a different path in her career,
and then came backas CEO of the Lord's Place.
but I'm going to pause here.
And, Kerry, please introduce yourselfand tell the audience a little bit
about you and your backgroundand how you got to be involved
in the nonprofit space.
(01:24):
Well, how much time do you have?
So, like many people in the nonprofitworld, I kind of came at it sideways.
and I think there'sa little bit of serendipity involved
when most peopleget involved in nonprofits.
So I'm actually trained as a lawyer,licensed to practice in three states,
practiced for about a hot minute, decidedthat really wasn't for me.
(01:45):
and as luck would have it,I had run into a friend,
a friend who was working ona congressional campaign
that had a lot of policiesI was interested in.
So I went right from thereto working on a congressional campaign.
Got me involved in that.
I then worked in the Florida Legislature,
so I was kind of on the other sideof making the sausage on the inside.
How do I develop policiesfrom the front end?
(02:07):
And then, from there, I went to work
for a nonprofit, that represented homecare and hospice providers.
So I was in the advocacyworld out in California.
Now, this allowed meto see kind of both sides of the table
how the policies were made,how to influence them, but
also both sides of committees and boards.
(02:30):
Because I was serving on some committeesand boards there,
but I was also staffing them.
So that was my first entry intohow does this dynamic work?
I know
most of your listeners are board members,so I have seen both sides of that coin.
From there, I came back to Floridaand I ran a small nonprofit,
(02:51):
which was funded by the Quantum
Foundation that introduced me to them.
I then left that project.
They asked meto be on their grants committee,
then chair their grants committeethan be on their board.
and then they had a
vacancy, and they asked me to throw my hatin the ring, and there you go.
So I was there for three years,
(03:13):
which was great.
it was a transition time.
And I know we'll talk laterabout some transition items, but
I'm one of those weird creaturesthat loves transitions.
I embrace change,which is a little freaky.
but it works for me.
so after that,
I actually went toI went open to business for six years.
(03:38):
So little small business.
So I think that helped.
Also,I know your background is in business.
and we've discussed that nonprofitscan't be run like business, but having
some acumen around financial statements,accountability policies and procedures
that are really tight,that stand up to legal scrutiny, etc..
I think that's a good background.
(03:58):
and then went over to CostaRica for a year with my kids.
Totally different.
But what it did is it said, hey,look at all the people in need.
Are you
really supposed to be running a businessor do you need to get back to nonprofit?
So, in addition to itbeing a wonderful experience for my kids
and our family, it also said, Kerry,you need to go back to nonprofit.
(04:21):
So when I came back, I started
consulting right out of the gate.
I had a three month engagementwith the Lord's Place,
which turned into two yearsand three months.
and perhaps because they loved me,
but probably more because of whatthey were going through at the time.
(04:41):
So major construction projects,
multiple major construction projects,
as well as the CEO
had health crisisand was undergoing cancer treatment.
So it was not something I could leave.
And I've had a respect and passionfor that organization for a very,
very long time.Been dating back to my quantum days.
So, I said, I'min, I'm in the construction is done.
(05:05):
She's healthy.
Now it's time for me to leave.
and I still havea very good relationship with them.
So once that first consulting job back inthe gate, was over,
I've taken a little time,and then I put myself out there again
and have been discussingsome consulting gigs
and are working on some successionplanning with organizations.
So that brings you up to today.
(05:27):
Very windy road.
Thank you for that. And you?
Well, it sure is.
And what itwhat a background you've had in
I was fascinated,of course, when I read your bio,
when you and I spoke beforehand
about you being an attorney, and I said,no, not quite, not that contrary,
but it really gave you some insightand some perspective on things.
So how did that that legal,that law school background help you
(05:49):
throughout your career and particularlywhen you were CEO of, the foundation?
Well,I think it's always good to have, a lawyer
that knowshow to read a contract in your hip pocket,
especially for nonprofits that typicallycan't afford a full time in-house counsel.
And not that I ever actedin the capacity of
of in-house counsel,but I certainly knew enough to flag it.
(06:11):
And then get it to an expert attorneyin that area.
I think it also makes you approach thingsin an analytical way.
I am I am truly all heart,
but I know when I need to put the hat on.
you really need to poke holes in this.
You really need to find the waysthat this can go sideways
(06:32):
so that the nonprofit is better informed.
And then whatever solution to thatthere is to that
the CEO and and others can make that.
But at least you've pointed outwhat the possible pitfalls are of a move,
or a document or an arrangementthat's going to be put forth.
Oh, that makes sense.
Now, before you became CEO of quantum,you were on the board.
(06:52):
Do you think serving on the board helpedyou be a better CEO
and then also at work,can you talk a little bit
about the two rolesand the dynamics there?
Because I find this fascinating.
So yeah.
so I was actually on the board,
became CEO and stayed on the board, left
being CEO, stayed on the boarda very brief time.
(07:15):
I think it is very difficultto go forward.
CEO, CEO, board, either way you look at itis it can be a treacherous path.
I think the reason it worked for me
is because before I was on the board,I ran a nonprofit.
I had experience, so
I had a deep understandingof how that really worked.
(07:39):
And there were, you know, no disillusionabout how that really worked.
Now, I stayed on the board, really,just for a transition period.
I think you need to get outof the way of the new CEO.
100%.
but I also wanted the rest of the board
to have a period of timeto feel comfortable with that transition.
(08:01):
Aftera couple months, it was time for me to go.
I think as a former executiveat a nonprofit, it is very hard
to go in and serve on the boardbecause you know how the sausage is made.
To use my legislative example again,there is, as you
know, a very clear linebetween what the board does
(08:22):
and what the staff does instaff is operational.
Board is strategicand fiscally responsible.
Once you know the depth of the operations,it is very hard
to sit on a board and hold backbecause you do have knowledge.
You do have thoughtsthat can be very insightful, but it's very
(08:42):
it can be very disruptiveto the way the board works as an organism.
Boy, that's very interesting.
And that makes a lot of sense.
So so then you go start a businessand you come back and now you've got this
three month engagementthat turns into longer than that.
So let's dissect the latter half of thata little bit.
So you come back.
(09:03):
Are you a better consultantbecause you had served on the board
because you hadbeen a CEO of a foundation?
I think
so I wouldargue because I've seen both sides of it.
and I know how that board member feelswhen there's a presentation going on.
I know how that staff memberfeels when you're giving a presentation.
And although have in a variety of careers,I think the hallmark
(09:26):
or the tie that bindsall of them is I go into a situation
always looking for a everyoneto walk out of that conversation,
that situationfeeling like they got what they needed.
Right.
So that helps going in as a board member,understanding
where the staff is coming fromand it helps going in as a staff member,
(09:48):
because I knowwhat the board's looking for.
So I would argue that it certainly does.
So. So you come in as CEO of a three monthgig and you stay longer.
And so let's talka little bit about succession planning
because something happened and you wereyou needed to stay.
So as you take a step backand you think about your succession
(10:08):
planning at the board leveland at the CEO level,
can you talk about your observationsand maybe what you would say
are some now best practicesthat organizations should adhere to?
Absolutely.
And I want to give a caveat here.
this is all from learned experience.
So in the moment,I may not have been acting this way
100% of the time.
(10:30):
but I would say that succession planning,
which I may have already told you,I hate that word.
it really is, you know,
how do you positionthe organization for success?
How do you make the organization notdependent on or defined by one individual?
So we discussed about
(10:50):
the word intentional from dayone of sitting in that seat of CEO.
How are you preparing for the possibilityyou may be out for a day, a week,
a month, or that your term ends dueto some catastrophic event?
So I think you plan from thatfrom day one.
So you are bringing your staff along,giving them opportunities
(11:12):
to rise in leadership, risein visibility in the community,
and you get the opportunity
as CEO to step back and say,what are those things like, only I can do?
I mean, have you met a nonprofit CEO
who thinks they have spare time?
They're overwhelmed.
They're overwhelmed.
(11:34):
and I think part of itis that they were entrusted with caring.
This organizationthrough on the journey being successful.
The board is relying on them to do that.
However,I think then some of that responsibility
might get tied up with fear or ego
of letting go a little bit of sharing
(11:57):
the responsibilityappropriately when appropriate.
And if you go in with the mindsetthat from day one,
something may happen in not out of fear,but what's the opportunity?
What are the moments of opportunityfor other staff?
So if something does happen,that organization will be ready
(12:18):
and I free myself up
to dothe things I am uniquely qualified to do.
And this is wonderful.
I'm actually just taking notes thatthat was the reason for the the pause.
And so going in with the mindsetright off the bat
to position the organization for successbeyond you.
(12:39):
Really tough to do.
Do youdo you talk to other people about it.
Do you do you let staff know aboutany succession planning that's in place?
Do you keep that close to the vest? Workwith the board?
Well, what was your approachor what would you recommend?
So I think there's two differentkinds of succession planning.
There is the document that everyone hasthat's out of date
(13:02):
that, you know, like the strategic plan.
that's hard to revisit,but I think it becomes a living document.
Right.
So you hire the CEO in their deliverables.
There is intentional successionplanning for the C-suite.
And organization is in the delivers.
It is on a quarterlycheck in on the board list.
So that's the conversationbetween the CEO and the board.
(13:24):
Right.
Is do you have the piecesand puzzles in place now?
I would argue at this pointthe board does not need to know it is
John Smith or Susie Hue
who is slated to expand in advocacy or in,
community development.
I don't think they need to know
(13:45):
that because, again,this is an operational issue, right?
But I think they need to know
that they or that the CEOis intentionally working on it.
Now, the CEO, I believe, needs
to identify those members of her teamthat she can bring along.
He or she can bring alongand really mentor for them from day one.
(14:06):
And by mentor, I don't mean develop a planthat says, have you done this?
Have you done that?
I mean, getlet them get inside your head, right?
Like, nope, what did I do?Why did I do it?
Because then that gives them the skill.
When they're faced with an instance,a circumstance, something they need
to make a decision about,
they won't.
It won't look exactly like the onethat you presented to them.
(14:28):
Right?
But they'll know how you attacked itso they can take that skill set
and apply it towhatever comes up for them.
Back to the document.
I think if someone's name in successiondocument,
they better know.
I think if something
catastrophic happensand you get caught flat footed,
(14:51):
you may not want the added responseability.
Now here we have a written document that'sbinding on the board that names you.
you may not have focused
in your career, whatever leverageyou had to learn more about that area,
knowing that you were next in lineto handle whatever that task was.
(15:12):
So it gives you a little impetusand ownership over developing
your own skills around that issue,knowing that you're the backup plan.
Well stated.
And so when you think about successionplanning, let's just move up the chain,
I guess the organizational changea little bit to the board level.
You've seen it, you've lived it.
What what are some best practices forsuccession planning for the board chair?
(15:37):
Well, really any officer in the boardand even board members.
But the board chair.
And how far aheaddo you look towards that?
Just welcome your thoughts onthat as board members are listening.
Yeah, I think you need to plan far inadvance it in in it doesn't have to.
This next statementI may say doesn't have to be public.
I think the CEO has to have some thingsin their hip pocket.
(15:58):
Right.
You know, the skill set, you know,if something happens, even if it's,
you know, the the vice chairis supposed to step in for the chair,
but then something happensto both of them.
You know who's strong,you know who can step in. Right.
and I thinkyou have to give people opportunities.
It may not be the personthat speaks out the loudest.
It may not be the finance committee chair,which for some reason
(16:21):
is a very popular candidatefor board chair.
But, you know, it's fine to mix it up.
and I think you get those interesting,strong people
with different approaches,by the way, you recruit for the board.
And I, in my experience, a lot of board
recruiting is done by other board members,which is amazing, right?
(16:43):
You get people,they're prevented people they know, people
they know are going to show upand be involved.
but a lot of timesyou just get more of the same.
I think, why not open this process up?
If you trust your second, third andcommand on a staff level, your C-suite,
and you have a
trusting relationship with them,why not ask their opinion?
(17:07):
What about your other trusted partners
that you can have a discreet conversationwith in the community?
Right.
You now have completely
opened up your opportunityto build a bench,
even if it's not a benchyou use today or tomorrow.
Three years from now,the accountant on your board leaves.
(17:30):
You also have the only minorityfemale leave
you go back to your list.
You call back your contactswho were interested in helping you.
You have now have a listput together that you control.
Now, I'm not saying that the CEO or
the boardchair is going to let go of this control,
but be open to input from others.
but that, again, is my approach.
(17:52):
I think that,
you know, you have to be open.
I used to say to my teamall the time, do nothing alone,
right?
This is a community solution,a community nonprofit
responding to in partnershipwith the community.
So what is it that you do every daythat you can have that same mindset?
Ultimately, the boardand the CEO are responsible for that,
(18:13):
whatever the organization does. Right.
But how do you bring others along?
It's you don't have to shine the spotlight
on just one personor on just one organization.
So so what really and this is fascinating.
So chair succession starts
way early in the processwith the recruiting of board members.
(18:33):
Absolutely.
And there's a CEOyou should always be in quote
recruiting board membersor positioning it.
And I love the factwhat you share with me.
And come to find out where a mutual friendyou've got a trusted friend
over in West Palm Beachor whom I happen to know.
And you said you call her sometimesto vet people and just run the idea by her
and is she is sheand the foundation in the world now,
(18:55):
but she's just connected.
So you'll say,what do you think about so-and-so?
So that helps you through or helped youthrough your vetting process?
Right, absolutely.
And so wewe all need that board of advisors,
whether it's a real or a theoretical boardof advisors to bounce ideas off of.
So CEOs out there, you're always
recruiting, looking for prospectiveand future board members.
(19:18):
Yes, board members should do the same.
But the reality is a CEOis probably gonna outlive
most board members,right from a tenure perspective.
Right? Right. Correct.
So when you when you take a step backand you've been in both
those roles, CEO leadershipand then you've also been on the board,
what are some traitsthat make people effective?
Let's go to board.
First winner traitsthat make effective board members.
(19:42):
I think attentive, inquisitive,
curious, respectful.
That last one a little bit about that.
Yeah.
So I think you need to
I mean, just the nuts and bolts,read the materials,
do your own research,
be curious.
(20:02):
Come ask questions.
listen to other people's answersand questions on the board.
Digest that and don'tstep over the line into operations.
Know your place,which is immensely important.
Again, if something bad happenswith this nonprofit,
(20:22):
that board is in the spotlight, right?
So you do have a very, very,very important role.
And you do take it seriously.
but you have to stop shortof being concerned
about operational issuesunless there's a crisis,
unless there's malfeasance or something,something untoward is happening.
but but but don't be afraid ofbeing really curious and asking questions.
(20:44):
and how about traits for a CEO?
Well,I might be beating a drum here, but open,
willing to share,
and really focuses on buildingtrusting relationships.
I think that as CEOs
were so busy with so much,especially of a smaller
(21:06):
nonprofit, I mean, there'sso much on your plate, right?
I mean, the phone doesn't stop ringing.
People need you,
to step back and really investin relationships, in building trust,
because what that does is paydividends down the road.
Much like
starting with succession planning from dayone builds dividends down the road.
(21:26):
If you have that trusted relationship,there's almost nothing you can't do.
in an organization,you know, within constraints.
But right.
You can get so much more donewhen the people you work with
and the people you partner with
in your board trustwhat you're saying and what you're doing.
and so Boardman, this is interesting.
(21:46):
So board members,you come from the business world, right?
They'll sit on a nonprofit boardsometimes.
I've observedthey have a tough time understanding this.
The whole collaboration,the building trust.
We have to go slower and broader.
We can't just go straight forwardwith an idea like they can
can speak to that.
They gotthey get to make all the decisions. Right.
(22:06):
It's really I mean, I would gather thatthere are a lot of entrepreneurs or C
and or CEOs on boards, right?
They have control over their overtheir schedule.
They have the ability to be flexibleand attend, which is amazing.
But you're right, they do usuallymake a decision and that it's implemented.
There is no let'ssee how this works with this.
(22:27):
Oh, there's this governmental agenciesthat involved.
Let's have a meeting. Let's make surethat we're working together.
and, you know, we keep talking aboutnot having enough time.
Well, let's get the CEO to sharesome responsibilities and control,
and let's get to CEO working closelywith the board, which they already do.
But putting this on the agenda,and I know it is not as easy as that.
(22:50):
I don't mean to sound flippant,but really spending time
with teaching themwhat it means to be a board member,
which is so uniquely differentthan being a board member of a
for profit corporation and,and and or being the CEO or some other,
executive within, for profit corporation.
(23:11):
so true.
Well stated.
And, and a lot of my when I speakto boards, it's really on that topic.
And the stain your swim linedon't get in the operations.
And if
I love
entrepreneurs, but typicallythe entrepreneurs are the worst at that.
They want to fix a fixerand they're good at it.
Fix a problem was addressed.Let's do it now.
And they kind ofget in the weeds sometimes.
(23:31):
But that person is alsoan interesting person on your board,
because what you need to figure out ishow do you give them a defined task.
Right. So,
I'm going to use an examplethat's close to home.
So, you have a hotel executiveon your board.
It's an entrepreneur
used to getting things done, wants to dostuff, wants to do stuff.
Well, you're remodeling,an apartment complex.
(23:54):
You need furniture.
Give them that job.
Go sauce it.
Get us a deal.
Bring us produce stuff from your whatever.
We'd love for you to just. Just do that.
Consult.
If there's a,
you know, a specific concerns aboutthe population need special, special need.
But just let them have that.
(24:14):
there might be instances where you can tag
board members that have that mindsetand want to be helpful
with specific thingsthat don't have to do with operations
or strategy,that are time and function limited.
And, you know, they can they canthen report right back to the CEO.
And it's an opportunityto build a relationship with them
that's a little bit closer.
(24:34):
And some trust I trust you, you trust me.
Oh I like that.
And so as a CEOand when you run the foundation
and let me actually rise itup, best practices, how often should
an executive director CEO communicatewith individual board members?
You know,we know we've got the board meetings,
but have you observed any best practicesfor ongoing outreach and regular outreach?
(24:56):
I think you need regular outreach.
I did I mean, I would meet with
each one of the board membersprobably twice a year.
lunch or something that that is more openended, not a formal setting,
so that they can share where they thinkwe are without an audience.
and more importantly, you can understandwhat are their needs.
And we talked about this a little bitbefore
(25:18):
really understandingwhat your board needs.
So if you're presenting
a new project to this boardand you want it to get approved,
if you have spent that time, you know that
Joe is really concerned about housing
and Mary is really concernedabout finances.
And also women's issues.
(25:39):
So when you put this together, you can goin knowing what makes it a win for them.
Not that you're going to be able to beable to manipulate it into a win for them.
But you can be conscientiousabout why they're there.
They're therebecause these are their concerns.
And that brought them to the board.
So you want to honorthose and just understand them.
It helps you move through that processat the board level much easier,
(26:03):
because you understandwhere they're coming from
and what their hot buttons are.
You know,very strategically managing your board.
And we talk about this,managing the board. And it sounds so,
and prescriptive,
but the reality is, look, every boardmember has got a different passion.
They want to serve. They want to help.
And it's your job as a CEO to understandwhere to to plug and play
and to manage accordingly.
(26:24):
because you're going to be the only one
with the overall viewpointof the organization.
You know, from a
programmatic perspective, even the boardchair won't have have that perspective.
So as we're starting to wind downa little bit, can you talk a little bit
about the board chair CEO relationshipand how that needs to be in place to be,
help the organization be effective?
(26:46):
I mean, we can't overstate it.
It is critical.
All the issues we talked aboutreally start with the board members.
So if we want that successversus succession training to start
at the front end, you have to have yourboard chair bought into that.
anything that you're doing
really, you want to be in partnershipwith your, with your board chair.
(27:07):
So I would say that's obviously the mostcritical relationship with the CEO
after staff.
I would put it after staff.
That to both. Do the work.
They're the ones who do the workevery day.
If you don't feed and water your staff,you have nothing to report,
you have no success, you have nothingfor the board to be proud of
and for them to get involved in, etc.
(27:29):
so that was a little segue,but I would say
feed and water the stafffirst, your board chair second.
and then I canI ask your opinion on something?
Oh, absolutely.We're gonna turn the table.
She she threatened to do this. EverybodyI did.
So I have always had,
good relationships with my board,friendly relationships with my board,
(27:51):
and some of them I knew previously,and we were friends. But,
I stopped
short of really socializing or really
being around the board, you know, like,calling them up, like, let's play tennis.
That kind of a thing?
primarily because I don't play tennis,but that's my example.
What are your thoughts?
(28:13):
Yeah.
yeah. Well, I know not to ask you to play.
Or maybe I should ask you to play tennis.
I don't I don't play either.
you know, I'm.
I'm old school in that regard.
I think there's a separationwhen you become a leader, there's,
a separationyou've got to be respectful of.
And while socializing is fine,
I think you got to be carefulnot to breach that line.
(28:33):
And it's just easier by, you know,arm's length.
Keep it to business.Doesn't mean it's ugly.
and it can be friendly.
And maybe you'll see them out at an event.
But to go socialize with, with eithera, you know, a subordinate,
if you will, or a board member,I would really refrain from that.
I just
maybe that's old school
thought, but it just seems to keep thethe lines crystal clear.
(28:55):
Because one thing,
if you start to get a little bittoo familiar with each other,
then they could creepinto the operational aspect of things.
And so as a CEO,I think you got to keep remembering
your responsibilityis to lead that organization.
And it is 24 hours a day.
I mean, you can't turn it onand turn it off.
Those those types of relationships are.
That's just that's old school.We must be the same age.
But yes, and I wouldI would completely agree with you.
(29:17):
I think what happens isthen it becomes more difficult
for the boardto hold the CEO accountable. Yes.
And it becomes more difficult for the CEOto hold the board accountable.
Yeah.
Now I'll say, right, because it'show do you hold friends accountable?
That's it's it's challenging.
Right? Yeah, absolutely.
I think and then and then you
(29:37):
you can develop biased viewsof what's being presented.
both ways.
and again,
I'm all for friendly,you know, relationships.
But I just I'm a little concerned about itgoing
the other way, much like what you said.
Well, for the reasons you stated,I've seen it where friends of have come on
(29:59):
and now they take over the CEO positionand they're friends with board members.
And, boy, there isn't there's
not the accountability that's necessaryto drive the organization forward.
You've got to use that accountabilityto build trust in the community.
And you know, and and people know it.
I mean, they'll know if there's some,
softness, if you will, just some easy,
(30:21):
aspect to thingsin those relationships. So.
Yeah.
So, so let me ask you this, Kerry,a final question.
So, this is podcast for board membersprimarily.
What advice do you have?
And you've touched on this a little bit
to board membersso that they can be very, very effective.
Yeah I mean, start with the easy stuff.
I, I've gone to a million board meetingswhere no one has read the materials,
(30:44):
you know,
and if you're on other boardsor you're out in the community,
don't be afraid to engage on the issuesso you become better informed
about what's going on in the community.
If you're on, you know, a women'smentoring board,
that doesn't mean the conversationhas to be about women's mentoring,
just knowing what's going onin the community at a broader level
can be very helpful to the boardas an organism
(31:06):
and as advice to the CEO.
make time for your CEO.
I know a lot of people are busy,but I think there was once or twice a year
touch basesthat are one on one are really important.
be respectful of your other board members.
You will not always agree.
however, if you listen,
(31:28):
there may be a viewpoint that you can,
get something out of that.
you will learn something from it.
And at the end of the day,you have to respect if you're going to
continue to operateeffectively together, and enjoy it
in January. It.
Right.
You have to be engaged in some instances.
(31:49):
You have to be active.
But don't overthinkyour level of activity.
Show up and be present.
And then then you'll experiencethe joy that serving on a nonprofit board
can certainly bring. Exactly. Enjoy it.
Yeah, well, I like that.
So, Kerry,how can people get in touch with you?
You through your
you out there that you're backin the consulting business a little bit.
(32:10):
If people want to reach out to you,how can they reach you?
well, they can reach me by phoneor by email, and I can give you that
to post with the show notes,or I can give it to you.
Now give itgive us an email now, and we'll do both.
Okay. Terrific.
It's, Kerry Diaz, KerryADiaz@gmail.com.
(32:31):
And my phone is five, 613070844.
Very good.
There you go, ladies.
And, Jim, if you want to reach outto Kerry, please go ahead and do so.
She is highly respected in the nonprofitconsulting community.
we got mutual friendsand just think the world over.
And, Kerry, thank you so much for today,for sharing your wisdom.
(32:51):
And I think we're better offbecause of it. So thank you.
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure to work with youas well as with read.
Have a great day.Great interview with Kerry Diaz.
Now this segment of recappingwith read, read.
What were your observations?
So my first observation,Kerry, re-emphasize for us the importance
of having the trust of your stakeholdersas the CEO.
(33:12):
She said.
There's almost nothing you can't do
if you have the trust of your boardand your staff.
Yeah. Trust is the CEO's currency.
And number two.
You are allowed to spend timeteaching the board members how they can be
better board members.And that's something that we often get,
engaged
in when we are doing bordertreats as well.
That's true. And number three.
(33:34):
The insightful commentthat the relationship with the CEO
and board chair actually might bethe second most important relationship
in the organizationafter the CEO and staff relationship.
Yeah, I thought that was interestingthe way she framed that.
So there you go,ladies and gentlemen, recapping with Read,
who was analyzing our interviewwith Kerry Diaz.
And we will I 501 see you next week.
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