Monica Schrock: Redefining your journey through gender and mental health

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Getting to the point where you can likemake them and prioritize your mental
health is like a big, like, even thiswhole, like, even this year when I
already knew I still like stumbled alot, like it's a journey, you know,
and there was still some like real likehard dark moments, but I was like, okay,
like, you know how to get out of this.
And that's like, it's having the tools,it's having like the skills and like
really strengthening them and beingable to like choose yourself over.

(00:23):
You know, it alwayscomes down to capitalism.
Hello, hello, and welcome backto the I'm Lost So What podcast.
As usual, this is your host,Cassandra Le, and in this episode,
I am bringing on a longtime friendand my introverted copywriting and
marketing other half, Monica Schrock.
Monica is a marketing consultant andcopywriter who co creates holistic

(00:46):
messaging and marketing methods withcompanies that disrupt norms, create
inclusive space, and drive purposethrough sports, culture, or community.
And in this episode, we are talking aboutMonica's non binary journey, their mental
health, and prioritizing their mentalhealth, as well as a fun little petty
party, because you all know we love pettyparties, uh, talking about marketing.

(01:08):
I will share that there is a contentwarning in this episode where we
talk about mental health and thefact that Monica has depression,
anxiety, and bipolar disorder.
So let's just dive into it.
I am so excited for you all to listento this because having conversations
with Monica is always super fun andwe love getting really deep into

(01:31):
things and It's just a great time.
So let's go.
Hello.
Hello, everyone.
I'm Cassandra Le, and you'relistening to I'm Lost So What?
The podcast exploring betweenbelonging and carving your own path.
For all the peeps out there who kindof know what you're doing, but still
question what the fuck is going on.

(01:52):
Yeah.
I'm with you.
Hello.
Hello.
And welcome to the I'm Lost So What?
And I am super excited becausewe've got if you've been in my
network for a while and oh, gee,I guess person here with us today.
Hello, Monica.
Hi.
I'm so stoked to be here.

(02:12):
Yay.
I'm super excited.
Um, honestly, we were just talkingabout not seeing each other's faces.
Yes.
Was just going to say, I'mso excited to see your face.
I know.
It's been so long.
Seriously.
Well, if you don't know who Monicais, we used to have a podcast together
called Business Without the Buts.
It was also a membership.
Uh, we have done lots of randommarketing things together.

(02:34):
How long have we known each other now?
Gosh, that's a great question.
Was it 2019?
Yeah.
So how many years?
That's like four and a half years.
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
It's a while now.
And then the last time I sawyou was February of this year.
For literally like an hour.
Oh yeah, you were here for like an hour.

(02:54):
That was so nice though.
That was nice.
It was not enough time though,because I was like, Oh, I
haven't seen you in so long.
It was like just enoughtime to be like, Damn.
I know.Like, sigh.
Exactly.
I still wanted that hour, but youknow, sometimes you were like,
oh, that hurt more than it was
. I know, I know.
Because sometimes you'relike, this is bittersweet.
We didn't even, like-
this is so bittersweet.

(03:15):
Yeah, we didn't get intolike the meaty stuff.
We were just, you know, catching upbut then didn't get the chance to
like talk about all of the things.
Oh, we're gonna get into it today though.
I'm excited.
I know.
So, um.
In this episode, I wanted to kind of gothrough what your journey is, was like,
is like defining what being non binarymeans to you, uh, your mental health.

(03:35):
And also we cannot, you know, meetwithout talking about marketing.
So there will be marketing.
So I do want to just at leaststart off with the first question.
What does being lost mean to you?
And can you describe what thefeeling of being lost is like?

(03:59):
I don't know if those are like similarquestions, but I think they're different.
So I think they're different.
Yeah.
Definitely.
I'll let you go into it.
Yeah.
Lost is a really interesting word.
It can mean so many things.
Right.
Because like I played sports growing up.
So it's like, you know, we lost, but Ithink the, if you lost the game, like
you lost, but I think the like commonthread there is like when you're lost

(04:19):
or when you lost, like you're learningso much about yourself and life.
And I think like, you know, beinglost are amazing learning periods.
And for me, being lost means likeexploration, like it gives me like
time and space to figure out what I'mdoing and what do I want to be doing
in my aunt said something the otherday where it was like, you know, life's

(04:40):
all about what you want to be doing.
Every single day.
So yeah, so when thinking aboutlike when I'm lost and thinking
about that, it's really figuringout and that's like an evolution.
Right?
Like, I don't, I'm not, I can'tpredict what I want to do every
single day, 10 years from now.
Like, I don't know whatI want to do by then.
Right?
So it's these moments of like being lostthat I feel like are necessary in life.

(05:03):
Um, so you're able to kind of likesit down and be like, Oh, yeah.
This isn't what I want todo with my days anymore.
So what do I want to do?
And I think people seeit a lot of the times.
I'm sure this is why you have this podcastis people see it as like a bad thing.
Air quotes.
What is bad?
What is bad?
Well, capitalism says it's badbecause we're supposed to want that

(05:26):
white picket fence and all the, allthe consumerism things and to buy
the house and to do all the things.
So we're not lost because we have thejob and we do the thing every day.
That's going to get us those things.
But for me, I've always wanted to.
I feel like I've always been lost,but if you ask anyone around me,
like, they wouldn't say that.
I was about to say, like, for thefour and a half years I've known you.

(05:47):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'll be lost for a second and then I'll,like, figure out what I want to do next.
And I'm a big person.
I'm a big variety person.
So I think I get lost maybe morethan a lot of people do because I do
something and then I'm like, I did it.
I want to do something else.
Um, so for me, it's like, I don't know.
I think it's like a partof my DNA being lost.
I think it's like a part of myidentity and I see it as a good thing.

(06:09):
Well, that takes me to, I guess,then the identity piece of being
lost and coming out as non binary.
When did you come out again?
I remember, but I don't remember.
Yeah, it was a couple of years ago.
Maybe it was June 2020, maybe.
I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I am literally imagining theInstagram post that you made.

(06:35):
Yeah.
Like that's what it was.
so nice.
It was.
Yeah that was so nice.
So, can you describe what definingbeing non binary means for you,
especially because I know, I mean,this is what I've seen on TikTok.
Uh,
I love that.
You know, let's tell me what I'm aboutto say with a grain of salt here, y'all.

(06:57):
So everybody has, of course, their owncoming out journey and their story.
And you came out later in life.
So what has, of course, definingbeing non binary looked like
because you came out later in life?
Yeah.
Oh, and also becauseyou're in a relationship.
I am in a relationship.
Yeah.
Yeah for almost nine years now.
Oh, long time.

(07:17):
That's uh, yeah, that's that'sfunny though coming out late in life
because I would definitely it was aninteresting thing But also the other
interesting thing about it is likeI always knew you know There's like
a part of me that always knew I justdidn't have like defining label for it.
I know labels can be, can havelike, you know, double edged sword
with the label thing for sure.
But for me, having the label for mygender, it makes it like solidifies

(07:39):
it so much in a way that just like,because I came out late, I think
I'm like, Oh my gosh, yes, there'slike a term for, for how I identify.
And that's like, so thatfeels so at home for me now.
And I feel just excited to writeit into gender when I'm writing in
forms, just like write it in or tellpeople or like be able to confidently
be like, Hey, like this is who I am.

(08:01):
And they're not be, you know,there's always confusion because
people are still confused, but I'mnot confused, which is really nice.
And the coming out latething, I was reading a book.
called, um, called it's a graphicnovel called Tomboy by Liz
Prince and just like reading it.
I was like, Oh my gosh, this was like,so my, like growing up, like not,
you know, just like not wanting to gothrough puberty, not wanting to become

(08:23):
womanly because like, you know, I'mlike, I'm not a boy, but I'm not like,
I don't want to become like womanly.
And it's so confusing to be like, I don't,you know, want to be something I'm not
necessarily, but who I am doesn't matchlike what's happening with me right now.
Which is like a very, you know, thephysical body thing is like a whole
nother thing, but for me, what it meansto be non binary, I think is like, you

(08:47):
know, I mean, obviously the definitionof not identifying with the binary
genders of being a man or a woman.
But I think it's, it's really a spectrumof where I am with gender expression,
you know, I know inside me that I'msomething in between, which I think
identifies with like me feel like thelast thing, like I'm not lost with my

(09:08):
gender identity, but it's something thatI get to kind of define, um, every day
or every week or every month or everyyear, you know, just like what I do in
life and just like what my interests are.
So I think like, yeah.
Being lost in that, like, reallyexploratory way is, is how I am in a lot
of aspects of my life, including gender.
So, for me, it's, it's like a space forme to not have to subscribe to one, the

(09:32):
like gender roles, the like, you know,really common gender roles and really
kind of, you know, break, I've alwaysbeen breaking those barriers in my
own life and never subscribed to them.
But now I'm like, well, I'm nonbinary, so I'm not doing that.
Like, and it's a really, you know,like an easier way than being like,
you know, if, you know, peoplethought I was a woman and they're
like, Oh, you're, you know, I'm not.

(09:54):
Whatever terms they want to call mebecause I'm a woman who doesn't act
like and, you know, women shouldn'thave to do that, like, at all.
But for me, I'm like, well, I don'tsubscribe, so I act and am the way that
I want, just like everyone should be.
But it's nice to really, like, belike, my gender doesn't match what
you're expecting and you shouldn'texpect that of people anyway.

(10:15):
Okay, so there's a lotto unpack there, mainly.
Sorry.
No, it's fine.
I love it.
Uh, and also I love hearingthis because I feel like we've
talked about it over the years.
Yeah.
But I don't think I've everactually like, you know, had the
chance to really have this Yeah.
Like super in depth conversation andask you, what does it mean to you?
And like, how is life now?

(10:37):
Um, I think something that you saidearlier about, you know, being lost and
that you're not lost in your gender.
I think it's really, really interestingbecause a lot of the times like, you know,
this concept of being lost and this wholepodcast explores like the, I don't want
to say explores the exploration, but I'mrunning out of words here, but it does.

(10:59):
It, it, it, it explores thisinfinite possibility of what
could be when we are lost.
I feel like it cracks it open.
It doesn't just explore it, itcracks open the exploration.
Yeah.
And like in a really intentional waytoo, because like you were saying,
like you always knew, but maybe.
You know, you didn't have the languageto fully define it or you didn't

(11:22):
have the language or I don't knowwhat else to kind of say what it is.
Yeah, and it's hard toarticulate, honestly.
Yeah, like is in some ways and Ithink, um, the internal struggle.
For like, you know, my entire life uptill a couple of years ago was like, just
like that was like the hardest part, Ithink, like you want to like, because
then like, again, that book, Tomboy, it'slike people like, Oh, you're a tomboy,

(11:46):
like, Oh, you're just more of a masculinewoman or like, you know, and there's so
many like assumptions that come with that.
And I think, you know, for me, this like,You know, although it's like tumultuous
right now, for sure, this like spectrum ofgender that's like coming out where you,
you know, you can like, you know, be like,well, this is actually like who I am.
And you don't have to understandit fully because I don't think you

(12:08):
ever could because it's a feelinginside me that is hard to articulate.
Yeah.
I can kind of be more like, this iswhy I don't feel, you know, welcome
in certain, in certain like activitiesor in certain like categories.
And I can be like, you know,I don't really relate to women
on that, on whatever that is.
And I don't relate to men on whatever thatis, but like, I have my, you know, my own

(12:31):
experience with it and this is what it is.
Hmm.
So another question for youis because you like exist.
or your gender exists within,how do I explain this?
Like the middle, but it'snot really the middle.
So I don't think it's like beingbisexual doesn't mean you're 50 50 or
being pansexual doesn't mean you putpercentages to all the genders like that.

(12:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know what you're saying.
Yeah.
I want to call
it like the limbo space.
Right.
But then also the limbo spacein like religious terms and all
of this stuff is the space thatyou wait until, you know, God.
Topsy on the shoulder or the devil,whoever, wherever you're going, um, and
it's like, okay, judgment day has come.
Like, yeah, it's your turn.

(13:13):
You're going to go either upto heaven or down to hell.
Um, interesting.
I've never even heard that.
That's it.
Yeah.
I don't know if that's correct.
So like, if you-
I didn't grow up religious, sofor me, I wouldn't even know.
Um, okay.
Well, growing up Catholic and thenchoosing to leave the religion,
I think that's what it is.
So within like limbo, middle gray,um, I think in one of the, like

(13:39):
a previous newsletter I had, Icalled it like the twilight zone.
It does feel like that sometimes.
So what is life like for you?
Living in that constant twilight zoneand having the freedom now, especially
because you have the language and,you know, the self awareness and the
confidence, I guess, to like, say,hey, this is it take it or leave it.

(14:02):
I feel good about myself here.
What is life like?
For you now.
And then I guess forthe people around you.
Yeah, it's pretty great.
Honestly.
Okay.
I love that for you.
It's pretty.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
No, it is pretty great.
Um, you know, I, I feel the peoplearound me are so happy for me and

(14:23):
I'm lucky that I have people aroundme that one) a lot of them already
knew, but like, didn't probably didn'thave the language for it either.
So like when I like came out, they'relike, Oh, like my sister was like, yes.
And, and like people, myfriends were like, yeah, duh.
Which is great.
You know, I had a similar experiencewith like anxiety where I was
like, saw, uh, we'll get to this.

(14:44):
I know.
But I saw like a graphic on socialmedia and I texted my partner and I
was like, Tom, I think I have anxiety.
And he was like, uh, you didn't know that.
And I was like, Oh, man, so I think like,you know, self awareness around it, it
like just, it just makes things better.
I mean, there's definitely, I willsay there's things, you know, there's

(15:06):
dangers in the world, but honestly,I've always presented this way.
So those dangers existed before,you know, whether you're genderqueer
or a woman, like those, thosedangers just exist for us.
It's a great feeling.
And I feel like I, similar with likesome of my mental health stuff, I feel
like I can take on the labor of certainthings, like explaining to people, but

(15:28):
also caveat, like I'm one person andnon binary means something different for
everyone and how they experience and, andwhat like most important thing for people.
So for me, it's pretty great.
Like I'm able to just kindof move through the world.
And when I tell people there'sdifferent reactions, you know, and I
like to tell people, cause I think theyshould know, you know, but people have
different reactions and that's cool.

(15:50):
And I'm like, kind of readyfor all the reactions.
Some people are dismissive.
Some people are, that's so cool.
Some people are curious.
Some people like, you know, don't get it.
Don't want to get it.
All of that is fine for me.
Like it's all about me and how I feel.
And you know, that's like,I'm rooted in who I am.
And I'm like, it's a feeling.
I don't really have to explain it to you,but I could explain it to you and I'm

(16:10):
happy to in the ways that I know how.
So like for the people in my immediatecircle and that I surround myself
with, I'm lucky that they were alllike people who were open to it anyway.
And I didn't really have to, like,lose anyone over it or like, you know,
I was really fortunate in that way.
And then when I run into people,you know, it's a, it's a mixed
bag, but I'm down for all of it.
You know, one of my many strengths,especially like, you know, in marketing

(16:34):
is, is like people management.
Like, you know, I can likemanage people's expectations.
I can deescalate situations.
I can, I can talk to people.
So it's something that like my skillset is like, I think I'm like, kind
of like, Set up for so I'm happyto do it So it's just like a it's a
really great feeling and not to beweighted down by expectations that

(16:54):
I don't actually want to meet Butpeople like look at me like I should.
So I just feel and it's like, you knowsometimes those things pop up when
you're still like womanhood like stillkind of creeps in where you know?
And then I just have to like kind oflike sit back and be like, hey you know
like if you want to do these thingsif you want to then that's okay, but
Are you doing them because you wantto, or are you feeling like you need

(17:16):
to do them because, like, society'sexpectations or that, like, womanhood
that's kind of, like, programmed into you?
So, there are still those moments, eventhough I'm so grounded in who I am and
so happy about it, it's like, it's areal deconditioning, deprogramming.
I can imagine.
For sure.
But it is nice just to be in spacesand be like, this is who I am.
And, you know, just kind of explainingit to people, being open to people's

(17:39):
questions has been, um not that everyoneneeds to be at all, but for me, it's
been something that's really helped meget people around me to understand and
I hope change hearts and minds of peoplethat I didn't know very well, you know.
Oh, I love this for you.
I mean, when we talked about it and then Ithink you messaged me via WhatsApp and you
told me and I was like, I think I knew.

(18:00):
But I'm glad.
A lot of people are like, I knew that.
Did you not know?
I didn't have words for it.
And you know what, what it cameabout is I'm a board, um, I'm on
the board of a non profit and wewere doing like a virtual retreat.
Um, I remember this conversation.
Yes.
The year before, and we weredoing an identity workshop and

(18:21):
they were like, write down allthe aspects of your identity.
And I was just like, I got togender and I was like, uh, I know.
Oh, I was like writing down womanand I was like, that feels so wrong.
And that's the feeling that I don't miss.
Like that's the feeling I'm so glad tohave like been able to shake through
all of this is like growing up.

(18:42):
I was like, I feel so off.
Like I feel like I don'tbelong here or there.
And I feel like when I'm in spaceslike women's locker rooms, I
played sports and I love sports.
Sports are like a very safe havenfor me, but it was always like.
Oh, something's a little off about likehow I'm interacting with this world.
And to be able to be like, this isnot feeling off anymore is I think
the most like comforting and likerevolutionary feeling about it.

(19:05):
Oh, I love this, which actually, nowthat you bring up sports and stuff, I
actually wanted to ask about your podcast.
No.
Yeah.
Um, Play Like a They.
So you co host a podcast with Sarah?
Right?
Sarah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can you explain a littlebit more about that?
Yes, it's so fun.
And we've been a little likesporadic with it, but we're like
gonna, we're really like hunkeringdown and going to do it every week.

(19:28):
So we're really excited.
Um, there's, I think like six or sevenepisodes now, um, called play like a
they, where we explore, I mean, as apodcast about sports in general, from
like non binary perspectives, we also likeexplore non binary identities in sports
and like gender queerness in sports andjust like women's sports and equality
and what it could mean in the futurefor there to be more acceptance of like,

(19:49):
non binary and trans people in sports.
So they're fun conversations,you know, some of it gets deep,
some of it's just like light andwe cover all kinds of sports.
So, um, yeah, check it out if you'reinto sports or if you're not, we
talk about, um, identity stuff.
So it's, uh, it's not really technical.
I think it's like, even for someonewho's like, doesn't go deep into
sports, it probably could still be fun.

(20:09):
Yeah.
So it's not like you explaining games.
No, we're not like commentingon games or anything like that.
We might be talking about certainathletes we admire and like,
you know, things like that.
But yeah, it's definitelynot a like a play by play of,
yeah, of any type of sport.
Exactly.
We're not going to play by play the SuperBowl or even debrief the Super Bowl.

(20:31):
I can't imagine you doing that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I do like football.
I grew up in Texas, but But I definitelywouldn't do that on a podcast.
Hey, some of those podcasts, likethose niche podcasts, they do so well.
Yeah, they do super well.
Niching is where it'sat sometimes, I'm sure.
We gotta get to that.
In the marketing section, of course.

(20:53):
In one of your podcasts, actually, I thinkyou were talking about gender euphoria.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I loved that episode.
And just what you were saying, too,about, um, you know, Well, in the past,
entering like the women's locker roomswhen you were playing sports and kind
of being like, Hmm, this is not really.
But the men's locker room?

(21:14):
Yeah.
Maybe, eh, double eh.
Probably not double eh.
Can you describe, if you have hada moment, like, one of the biggest
moments of gender euphoria you'veexperienced since coming out?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I mean, it's 100 percentmy buzz cut for sure.
And I'm not saying Iwould have it forever.

(21:34):
I think like while I was like, andI've, I have buzzed my head now
for like 11 years for like the mostpart, like sometimes I'll grow it
out to like a short pixie cut or likesomething, but I don't get very far.
And it's just when I, when I actuallydid it, it was like, I was 25.
I remember.
And I was like, Oh my God,like this feels so right.
And I don't really know why, but it wasjust like, It didn't and that's what's

(21:58):
funny about is it wasn't like, oh, Ifeel so much more masculine like that
wasn't even the feeling like I thinkit's like it's it's hard to even like.
Or like, I don't know.
It's, it's hard to even like talkabout it in binary, like I don't
want to talk about it in binary termsbecause it doesn't really, but I feel
like a lot of people like, you know,that that's what makes sense to them.
So it's, it's not that I waslike, Oh, I feel masculine.

(22:19):
If anything, I felt a little bitmore feminine than I did masculine.
Like, I felt like it was more me.
And I felt like, you know,more beautiful from doing it.
So it's definitely like whenever I geta fresh buzz cut, that's like gender
euphoria every time, which I do everycouple of weeks because I like it
to be like super tight and lined up.
But that's a big one.

(22:39):
I think like like weightliftingis big gender euphoria.
I've heard that a lot from people whoare genderqueer, depending on like, you
know, where you land on that spectrum.
But it just makes you feel really strong.
And I think also, yeah, it's just like Idon't know if I've told you this, but I.
Genetically, my like boobs grew inhard, like maybe like five years ago,

(23:02):
which is wild because I was like 31and I was like really big into, um,
athletics and basketball and fitness.
And then we can talk aboutdepression and what happened
That's coming up next ya'll.
Yeah, that's coming up next.
But because of that, like, Ikind of like, you know, I got
less, you know, into really like.
Working out all the time and I feellike my genetics kind of like kicked

(23:24):
in, a lot of people in my familyhave like large breasts and now I'm
thinking like, you know, my journeyI know is not top surgery, but you
know, I heard that people get genderaffirming breast reduction surgeries.
And I was like, I think thatmight be the right thing for me.
And my mom got a breast reductionsurgery just for her back.
So I mean, yeah, yeah.

(23:44):
For people's backs, Ithink it helps a lot.
I think she got one too, but I'mlike, you know, they're covering that
for gender affirming care with likemedical insurance now and I'm like,
wow, yeah, I think like, cause whenI had like smaller breasts, like that
was like gender euphoria for me too.
So it's really cool to see thatthere are even though they are
absolutely under attack are likegender affirming health care.

(24:08):
That's something thatI think I want to do.
So that's also like a gender euphoria, um,future for me, which is really exciting.
Um, yeah.
And I met a person who works,and it's so funny cause I
wasn't even talking about it.
And I met a person who works inlike a plastic surgeon's office
and she was like, Oh, we do a lotof breast reduction surgeries.
And she was like the like, look onpeople's faces, like the relief they

(24:30):
have and the happiness in their face.
She's like, it's justlike worth it every time.
And I was like, Oh my God.
Oh my God.
I'm getting goosebumps listening to you.
I'm just so happy for you.
Like, honestly, well, since we've knowneach other for a while now, I just
like watching, you know, your journeyand then seeing all of this stuff and

(24:51):
like having conversations and stuff.
It's, it's really amazing to see one, Ithink something that you said earlier, um,
about how rooted you are in yourself, butthen being lost enough to still be open
to other experiences, other opportunitiesis really, really cool because it's.
It's not either or it's both and becauseyou can be super rooted in who you are

(25:15):
and like what feels good to you whileopening yourself up to kind of be lost
and, you know, float in twilight zone.
Twilight zone!
Yeah, I feel like.
Uh, saying that you have it allfigured out is like really closing
yourself off from from what it whatcould be for you and I think it's like

(25:35):
part of being lost is not looking.
Yeah.
You know I mean like it's just beinglost like it's not like forcing things
or experiences you know I mean you wantto do things and like kind of explore
but I feel like sometimes when we're lostwe feel like we have to find the thing
like really soon are people going tonotice we're lost and we're just going
to be that person that just like can'tget our shit together which is just not.

(25:56):
Not what it has to be.
It's not what it has to be.
Oh, my god.
So now that you brought thatup, I love all of these.
You're like segueing.
I'm transitioning for you.
Thank you.
Making my job easier.
Um, so we've also had conversationsabout like, prioritizing your mental
health through work, through life.
And you've mentioned now inthis conversation, even though

(26:16):
I technically know, um, thatyou have anxiety and depression.
Yes.
Um.
But there's another big one in there.
Yeah, I don't know ifyou wanted to share it.
Okay.
Yeah, I can absolutely share it.
Um, yeah, mental health hasbeen a big journey for me.
And, and, um, you know, the,the gender realization was
maybe like three years ago.
And then a year and a half ago, Iwent to a psychiatrist cause I just,

(26:41):
I mean, this, the story leadingup to this is just so long, but
essentially I've been experiencing,you know, some mental health.
I don't know, issues.
There's so many ways to put it,but just like experiencing a lot of
like hard mental health things forsince I was probably like 18 or 19.
I'm 36 now.
So it's been a while.
It's been a while and just like a lotof anxiety and depression before, which

(27:03):
is I thought was all what's happening.
But there was this other element that Ijust was like, you know, I'm just like,
I'm like, I'm like, can't control mybrain in like this very specific way.
And it just became this like, yeah.
This spiraling, spiraling, spiraling,and one day I was just like, I can't do
this, like, I can't do this anymore, andI told, you know, a psychiatric nurse

(27:24):
that I was like in her program for, andI told my best friend, and I was like,
dude, I don't, like, I don't even knowwhat the next step for me is, which
was really scary, because I was like,I just, I can't live like this anymore.
Um, so they were like, you know, so Iwas like, I'm gonna go to psychiatrist
and the psychiatric nurse, likeformer psychiatric nurse was like,
yeah, you should definitely go.

(27:45):
It took a few months becausethat was like, right?
Um, 2021.
So.
You know, lockdown was kind of comingout, but people had been in, you know,
we had everyone was like cooped up and wewere all having mental health situations.
And so a lot of likepeople were really busy.
So it took a few months, but I got inand, you know, after a few sessions,

(28:05):
they diagnosed me with bipolar disorder.
Bipolar 2.
There is another one.
I have the 2.
You know, we found some like tools andfor me, the tools were meds because
basically they were like you're you'vebeen in this hole for like a decade and
like we have, we have to like help youget out of it with some like medication
and honestly, I've accepted now.

(28:26):
It's been a journey the last year anda half that I'll probably need it for
the rest of my life and it's going tolook a certain way and that's okay, but
it was hard to accept, but I think likeimmediately within a few weeks, I felt.
So much better and so much more stable andthe things that I've been able to do in
the last year and a half have been unreal,like so unreal and you know, and just like

(28:47):
the journey I've been on and how like morelike how healthier and more stable I am.
I just never knew life couldbe like this and that's like I
try not to have any regrets orlike hold anything for too long.
But I think, you know, I like to talkabout it now because I really didn't
need to be suffering for over a decade.
And doing life, like, just so it hadto be, it didn't have to be so hard.

(29:11):
Um, so, you know, I'm really,I feel really lucky that my
brain got me through that.
My body got me through that.
My body is still like, okay.
And, and I'm just like reallygrateful for like my whole like
being for getting me through that.
And now it's just so much better.
Like, I can't even, it's like a full 180.
Like, I never thoughtmy life could be this.
Like clear, even though like being lost.

(29:34):
I'm like, I'm still so clear and andbeing able to be clear and trust my
gut and like make decisions and setboundaries and and know like what I
want and what I don't want and be ableto act on it without feeling like that
existential dread and like triggeringmyself into like a manic episode or a
depressive episode or wondering if thedecisions I'm making are because I'm

(29:56):
manic or because they're good ideas, it'slike, Oh my God, I'm going to stop here,
but it's just like been life changing.
Oh, my God.
Okay.
So you basically touched on literallyall the questions that I had.
I feel like this happens a lot.
Um, I just knew I didn'tgo over the questions.
I kind of gave you like areally like super high level.

(30:20):
We're going to talk about mental health.
These are kind of some of the thingsthat I was thinking to talk about.
This isn't the structure, but literallyMonica already went into, um, the points.
I've been doing-
this isn't my first podcast rodeo.
I know.
We still got that connection.
Yep.
Yep.
Um, so actually, okay.
My question is, there are 3.
When you decided to finally prioritizeyour mental health, And you touched on it

(30:45):
just now, but what was it like admittingto yourself that you needed the support?
And then what was itlike to one, ask for it?
And then also setting up boundariesbecause I know you and there's something
that you always say that you likecame out of the womb with boundaries.

(31:06):
I love, and that's somethingI've always admired.
But how did you set up andhold boundaries with yourself?
Because we always talk aboutlike setting boundaries and
holding them with other people.
But one thing I think that we alwaysforget is like, we got to hold ourselves
accountable to our own boundaries becauseif we don't, well, other people aren't.
So how did you approach that?

(31:27):
What was it like askingfor what you needed?
How was it to admit toyourself in the beginning
.Right, because in, like, my family and my circles and my, like, situation, I was,
like, the one who always had it together.
And I think that was, like, oneof the hardest things was being
like, I don't and thinking it was,like, okay to not have it together.

(31:48):
And even when I did tell people, theywere like, Oh, I could have never, I
would never have, like, been able to tell.
You just always had, theyjust use that phrase, too.
You always had it so together.
Which is like-
I don't know if that'shelpful or not helpful.
But I don't think so, but Iunderstand what they're saying.
I understand what they're saying.
I was like, yeah, Iwas masking super hard.
I got really good at it.
Like I've been doing itfor like over 10 years.
So yeah, you weren't going to knowno one was going to know, but like as

(32:11):
it went and I think like, you know.
Lockdown is for many people had alike a definitely a like role in
this as well, where just things keptgetting worse and worse and worse.
And now I know that if you leavebipolar disorder untreated,
it does get worse and worse.
So I guess I think it just got toa point where I was just like, I'm
not going to survive like this.
Like.

(32:32):
You know, it just kind of gets there and Ican't even describe the feeling is a very
scary feeling because you're just like,you know, I don't like I can't live in
this brain anymore like this, you know, soI think asking for help was still really
hard and I thought I could get throughit and I think like, you know, that's
We're just supposed to push through.
We're not supposed to complain or makethese things a big deal or, you know,

(32:56):
these, this is like what everyonetells us, you know, everybody gets
sad sometimes or whatever, you know?
And for me as a person, like no onehad explained to me, like, I didn't
know I had anxiety till I was like 30something, like no one in my life had been
like, this is what anxiety feels like.
This is what depression feels like.
You, these, like I had been told mygrandmother had bipolar disorder, but

(33:16):
I didn't really know what that meant.
I mean, I saw her.
In hospitals like sedated and like allthese things, but I never really got to
know what that meant, you know, so it'slike I wasn't primed society didn't prime
me like people around me didn't primeme to think that how I was experiencing
life wasn't normal because to me, Iwas just like, Oh, people are fucking
struggling like this in their brain.

(33:38):
And that's just normal, right?
Because this shit is bonkers out here.
You know, like, like,that's what it felt like.
And so when I kind of like, Startedto get to the point where I couldn't
handle it anymore, you know, I went tomy best friend, Kat, who is a person I
felt safe to go to and like, she didn'tknow what to do for me, obviously,
but was just like happy to that.
I that I asked.

(33:58):
And, you know, I was able to feel safeenough to tell, like, That the psychiatric
nurse, the former that I was in, um, herlike life coaching program, which was life
changing for me too, and I think led meto like being actually self aware around
what was happening like inside me becausea part of her practice was like somatic
practicing and feeling through your body.

(34:18):
And like, I just couldn't do it.
And, you know, She rightfullypointed out that anxiety was like
my cover for my actual emotions.
So I wasn't feeling my emotions.
I remember this conversation.
Yeah, I wasn't feelingmy body, my emotions.
I wasn't feeling anything.
I had coping mechanisms a lot, likework was a huge one, which is a lot of
like, I can answer the boundary questionabout like holding myself accountable.

(34:40):
A lot of that is to work.
And, you know, I never, I didn't falldeep into the, like, it's so funny.
Like, thankfully, because bipolar,people with bipolar are very like
susceptible to substance abuse.
And there was something whenI was younger that I just was
like, I don't like some things.
I know that something's going to happen.
Like hearing what people felt likeon drugs and things like that.

(35:02):
I was like, I just, I think it's, Ithink it's going to be bad for me.
And I'm really glad I didn't, becauseI think it would have been bad for me.
Like, I think I would have.
maybe gotten, you know, addictedto it and things like that.
And now I can like do some thingsfor fun and, and it's okay because
like I'm aware of all these things.
But yeah, I think I just like, I gotto that point and immediately when I
told, um, the person I was in theirprogram with, I like hung up, like I

(35:25):
hung off the zoom and I was like, Ohmy God, I shouldn't have told her that.
Like, I'm going to like,they're going to take me away.
Like, they're going to like throw mein somewhere because like, I'm, you
know, like, I'm going to say crazyright now because that's how I felt
people were going to look at me.
And like, I was like, I fucked up.
Like, I shouldn't have told someonethat, like, I'm in trouble now.
And she called me on the phone after andwhich was really nice, like to check on

(35:46):
me and really to tell because I told herI had made an appointment to psychiatrist.
She was like, good, because I'm callingyou to tell you that you should,
because I'm not going to tell you whatI think is going on because I'm it's
not appropriate for me to tell youbecause I'm not your psychiatrist.
I'm not that anymore.
She's like, I thinkthat you really should.
So.
Shout out to her for that becausethat was huge to where I felt like,

(36:07):
okay, I'm making the right decisionand I think for me at that point,
like going to the psychiatrist wasjust like going to be relieving.
I'm like, I don't knowwhat I'm going to find out.
I feel no way about this.
Besides, it's.
Relief that if I'm going to know, like,I'm going to know something and I didn't
know that I would know, but I just feltlike, like, this is going to be the
time where I get some answers and Idid, which is, which is really great.

(36:30):
And then they put me on meds that workedright away, which I think was just like.
Like I know is like kind of a miraclefor like because of a lot of people
experience going through a lot and I'veexperienced that now we've tried to put
like other ones in there for certainthings like mixed episodes come with the
territory as well where you're feelingmanic and depressed at the same time,
which is the wildest feeling in the world.

(36:50):
I can't even explain it.
Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.
It's like you have motivationand euphoria and like despair
and like a lack of motivation.
Oh my God, like all at the same time.
So honestly, like feeling crazyin your mind, like that's the
like most that feeling is likewhat that feels like to me.
And it's just like, you don't evenknow what to do here for yourself.

(37:11):
But thankfully those of like, I've beenable to mitigate those, which is awesome.
But yeah, just, and then I was like, cool.
Like I need to ask for helpmore in my life because look
what happened when I asked.
Look what happened when I askedfor help like this time, like that
was like, I shouldn't have to dothis without the tools and without
the people like supporting me.
So that was like a really big lessonin life and I think it's a lot easier
for me to ask for help now and setthose boundaries because the biggest

(37:35):
thing is like I was saying, I couldn'tfeel I couldn't feel my emotions.
I couldn't feel my body.
I didn't even know what I needed.
And even then I was like crushing life.
You really were.
You were doing awesome.
We have conversations.
You should read our WhatsApp combos.
We're like, we're great.
I don't know why.
We're great.
I don't know why, but we're great.
And I was still crushing it.
And now I'm like, Oh, wow.

(37:56):
Like.
I, I know what I need and it's stilla little hard to do it, like, because,
you know, sometimes what you need andwhat is like, you know, is, is a, is a
tough decision and it's going to let somepeople down, but that's not my problem.
Right.
And that's something thatI've definitely like.
The responsibility of like otherpeople and of in, you know, jobs

(38:16):
and things like that have been waymore lost on me now than before,
because I feel like that's all I had.
Like work was all I had.
If I kept working, I would survive.
And if people were happy with me, then Icould keep working and I could survive.
You know, like that wasthe thought process.
And now it turns out when youchoose like what's best for you.
A lot of the times.

(38:37):
I haven't had experience with people likesome people will like, really, I'm sure be
mad and there'll be a problem and you'llnever speak to them again, but I feel
like those are like few and far between.
And it's happened to me a coupleof times in my life, but now
I'm just like, so clear on it.
When I explain it to people, they're like,Oh, well, I can't be mad at you for that.
You know, and it's just kindof like, that's what it is.
So the biggest one lately is Igot, you know, what I thought

(39:00):
was like my dream job, right?
Like I, you know, like last year, ayear ago, which by the way, like, I
wanted to go for a career in sports.
And I like June 2022, Iwas like, I'm doing this.
Like I felt healthy enough, stable enough.
Like I would have never beenable to pull this off before.
Um, and I'm going to like doit and it's probably going to
take some time and that's okay.

(39:20):
Like I have some time I can likelive on a little blah, blah, blah.
It happened so fast.
It happened so fast.
Like literally like I got a sportswriting contract and I was like,
cool, this is a good first step.
And then I applied fora job at an NBA team.
Basketball is my sport.
I'm sure like, I don't know ifthere's going to be video, but
you can see like there's postersand basketballs all around me.
And like, I was like, Oh my gosh,working for an NBA team or WNBA

(39:43):
team, but we don't have one here inPortland, Oregon, um, would be amazing.
And so I saw a marketing positionand I applied and like, I got it.
And so like, within like two months,I was like, Oh, for when, from not
working in sports at all to havinga sports writing contract with like
one of the largest growing, like,you know, sports publications that,
that prioritizes women's sports.
And then an NBA team.

(40:05):
I know, seriously.
I remember, um, And we weretalking about it on what's that we
were like, wow, your manifestingskills are literally so strong.
So hard right now because I was soclear because I was so lost for so long.
And then I got so clear, you know,and it, and it's like, I wouldn't
have gotten so clear if I didn'thave those moments of being lost.
So I think like, that's a bigthing too, is like, if I wouldn't

(40:27):
have embraced the lostness.
I wouldn't have been able to get clearon it, but that's the thing, right?
As I, for the last like 10, 11 monthsnow, I've had this job, which I
just put my notice in like a weekand a half ago, which feels wild.
I mean, when you first hearthat, you're like, what?
Cause like I spent, like, I've beenwanting to do this since I was 18.

(40:49):
I quit everything to,like, make it happen.
And, you know, the last, like, 10, 11months, I'm like, okay, I'd never worked
in a corporate job before, by the way.
Another caveat to this story.
Yeah, maybe we shouldhave started with that.
This is my first corporate job.
Turns out it's not for me.
Yeah, not supportive for my mental health.
Like I could feel it.

(41:09):
I was like, my mental health isdeteriorating in these last 11 months.
And I really wanted to make it work.
And I was pushing really hard.
And I'm like, Monica, you're doing thatthing again, where you're prioritizing
like work and you're like using this tocope and I needed my meds and I didn't
want to, and I was going through episodes.
And so this is all a journey, right?
Because I was like.
Resisting upping my meds because I hadn'taccepted yet that I like really need

(41:32):
them and I might need them at a certaindosage and that dosage might be higher
than I, you know, thought it would beso and again, here it is with the meds
to where I was like, I can do this.
I can do this.
And I had a really hard campaign.
I was working on in January tolike March and that that shit like
broke me like it was just too much.
So I kind of like spiraled a littlebit and was like, you know, really

(41:54):
like dissociating and going out andnot they a lot and they threw like.
Yeah abilify another med in there forme to try to help the mixed episodes.
And that was just like, not it.
So there were all these things happening.
And so like, I finally like had apsychiatrist appointment and I was
like, I'm like struggling right now.
And I think I was trying to like pushthrough and she's like, here's the thing.

(42:14):
No, you're not supposedto be pushing through.
Like, this is supposedto be so manageable.
So if you're feeling this sohard, then you have to tell me and
we have to like, figure it out.
So.
We up the meds and then I was like,again, so clear and I was like,
Oh no, I can't do this long term.
I thought I could do an officestructured nine to five job if

(42:35):
it was like my favorite thing inthe world, which is basketball.
And I couldn't, I still couldn't.
And I was like, that's okay.
But it was very, it's hard to accept.
It's sad.
I definitely was like feeling a lot oflike, More like kind of mourning it.
Like I did this, I was able to do it, butit's actually not what I, not what I want.
So that feeling of lostness, like camein like again, which was totally fine.

(42:55):
But it was like a big boundary for me.
I was like, I can, I can,like, I can do another season.
I can see if it gets better.
And then I was like, no.
No, like, why would you stay longerthan, you know, like, you know, you want
to, like, I, I can't do this long term.
So why would you waste your own timeand like, waste their time, just like,
do what you know is best for you.
Like, your mental healthdeteriorated from this job.

(43:16):
Don't do it anymore.
Like, you can figure it out.
Like, I've been freelance forsince I was 22 for like, 14 years
on and off and always doing it.
I'm like, you don't have to do this.
You can make money and stilllike support your mental health.
So I think for me it was a big lessonin like how my brain works, how I work,
like how much rest I need to give it,like the stress levels that I can't take
or it like triggers episodes for me.

(43:37):
So I think that was a huge boundary Iset for myself and then recently maybe
had a really cool client that I was goingto work with and then like was like.
Saw some red flags that I knowwould like stress me out and like
hurt my mental health situation.
I was like said no to that too.
So I think like it's really importantfor me setting boundaries with people.
Like personal relationships andeven like work relationships.

(44:00):
I can do that.
But setting boundaries with myselfaround working to survive, which
is like my big coping mechanismis like a huge thing for me.
And I've definitely started todo it with this like new dosage
of meds that is clearly like moresuited for for my brain chemistry.
Oh, my gosh.
Honestly, I mean, I knew all the thingsthat you just mentioned or like shared,

(44:22):
but like seeing that, well, seeing thetimeline unfold and everything like that.
It's wild.
And all of that was in like a year.
And some people are like,Oh, that was a long time.
And then other people aregoing to be like a year.
That's like nothing.
You don't even know.
But I think what I took from everythingthat you shared is like, one, you were

(44:42):
still really rooted in yourself first.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, you might have been likelost and kind of like trying to figure out
what worked best and doing lots of testingand like tweaking and all that stuff.
But in the end, likeknowing, okay, this is.
What you need and then just kind oflike figuring out in what dosage that
was not a pun, but kind of kind offiguring out what you like, what you

(45:07):
needed, when you needed it, how much youneeded or don't need, uh, has is really.
amazing to kind of just seethe whole journey of it.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
It was in those hard decisions, likegetting to the point where you can like
make them and prioritize your mentalhealth is like a big, like even this

(45:29):
whole, like even this year when I alreadyknew, I still like stumbled a lot.
Like it's a journey, you know, and therewas still some like real, like hard
dark moments, but I was like, okay,like you know how to get out of this.
And that's like, it's having the tools,it's having like the skills and like
really strengthening them and being ableto like choose yourself over, you know,

(45:49):
it always comes down to capitalism too.
Choose yourself over production andcapitalism and selling your soul.
Exactly.
. So it's like, oh, I don't need to dothis and I'm lucky to not need to do it.
You know, like, I'm definitelyknow that too, but it's.
it feels good at the end of the day.
And honestly, there was a greatlike, um, reception to it at my job.
Like, you know, even my boss was like, I'mproud of you for choosing you over, over

(46:13):
this, because I know that's really hard,but it, yeah, it feels, it feels good.
And my therapist, like, cause I was like,you know, I tried and it didn't work.
And she was like, well, tryingimplies that you like failed at it,
which you definitely didn't becauseeveryone's happy with my work there.
I did a good job, which is like, youknow, not necessarily successful.
But for me, I was like, I'mproud of like what I did there.
Like I really and but she was like,you're you experimented and, you know,

(46:36):
it's not what's for you, which is Ithink is a really good distinction.
I love that.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
Seriously.
I was like, wow, do we have thesame conversations in therapy?
Maybe.
A lot of us probably do.
Yeah, probably.
If you're listening to this podcastand you had similar conversations,
but let us know, please let us know.

(46:57):
I feel like everybody has very,very similar conversations.
Um, it's just, it's like in differentdegrees, depending on, of course, like.
Your experience and whatever upbringingyou had and all of that stuff, but yeah.
Your culture and it's all very similarfor all there's a, there's a thread.
There's a line through.
Yeah, like the details.
Capitalism around Subway are different.

(47:18):
Capitalism the patriarchy.
Yes, exactly.
, which Barbie movie reminded us.
I don't know if you've seen it, but, oh,
I have.
Oh, it was good.
Oh yeah, it was good.
It was so good.
I was like, damn, thisis a little real though.
I know.
I was like, oh, A little morereal than I was expecting to get.
Well, yeah,
. Um, okay, so.

(47:38):
I want to move on to the marketing stuffbecause I love talking marketing with you.
Um, and I have a couple questionsaround all of the changes that
are happening in marketing.
I feel like literally every dayI open my email and something
new or something different.
Did you see that Twitteris now not Twitter?
Oh my gosh, I can't.

(47:59):
The rebrand.
I know.
Like R.
I.
P, r.
I.
P.
Yeah, like I'm a little sadhad my accounts in 2009.
R.
I.
P.
Twitter.
You know, I mean, I'm pretty sad.
That was a, that was a wild.
Like a wild card.
Falling of an empire.
Seriously.
It kind of came out of nowhere.
I swear.
I opened up my email today.

(48:19):
Um, and then there was anemail that was like, oh, uh,
Twitter is no longer Twitter.
It's called X or something.
And I was like, what's this?
It sounds like a meme joke.
Um, X.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's calledX, but the logo is an X.
But okay.
Anyway, so we can
I think it's still Twitter, butthe logo is an X, which I am like-
um, Musk wants to change the name though.

(48:39):
Okay.
I'm, I'm done.
Yeah.
I'll send it to you.
I'll be a WhatsApp.
Yeah.
Okay.
So my question is, since there are somany things changing in marketing, um,
I don't want to talk about all of thethings changing because I feel like it'll
just give me anxiety and like stress.
Yeah.
Um, what do you thinkwon't change in marketing?

(49:00):
And I feel like I know your answer.
Oh, you know my answer.
I want to hear what you know my answer.
And I will say this has interesting.
It's interesting now to have been amarketing manager in a corporation and
then also in nonprofits and then alsofor small businesses and individuals.
So I feel like I have this like nowhave this kind of complete like breadth
of experience in the marketing world.

(49:22):
And you know what myanswer is going to be.
And I can say confidently now, evenbeing in a corporation email marketing,
although it might change in like tiny,tiny, like details is not going anywhere.
It hasn't gone anywheresince we've had like emails.
I'm not going anywhere.
And it's still like, yeah, even atthe, you know, at the NBA team I

(49:45):
just worked at, like emails huge.
And that's where a lotof conversions come from.
And every single nonprofit I've workedin, same, every business I've worked
in, I've like pushed email really hard.
I've gotten people to like start listsand like do these things because for me
and you know, this social media is great.
We know there's a lower engagement rate.
We know there's a lower conversion rate.
But if you're doing.

(50:06):
All that work, you're doing so muchwork on social media, so much work,
like it never stops much work.
It never stops funnelpeople to your email list.
So you like have them in your likeecosystem and you can really like sell
to them in a way that is nurturing.
I can nurture them.
You can sell to them.
You can get to know them better.
You can be more like intimatewith them and your engagement and

(50:28):
conversion rates are so much higher.
Like it's literally likethere's no losing an email.
Like basically what money is tryingto say is I'm like so passionate
about email minor I would niche,like honestly, sometimes I do niche.
I'm just like, I just do email.
So if you want me to come inand do that, like, let's go.
Y'all please.

(50:48):
Like, um, don't just rely onsocial media for your marketing.
Uh, I think I've told this to my clients.
I feel like, um, on BusinessWithout the Buts, we were like-
we're broken records with it.
Yeah.
, please don't only do social media, y'all.
Oh my gosh.
We're not saying it doesn't matter.
But I think no matter like the type of-
it doesn't matter.
But like, no matter the business modelthat you have, whether you're like

(51:10):
nonprofit corporate, even if you're like acreator, influencer or like small business
owner, or if you're like a brick andmortar, female is way better than socials.
In all aspects and like the tight,like even the most like obvious
example, like, what if you loseyour Instagram or TikTok account?

(51:32):
What if it's taken downand you can't get it back?
Exactly.
Like, what are you going to do?
Where did all those people go?
Like, you're going to start a new oneand then you have to find them again?
Like, I don't.
Get an email list, that's it, then youdon't have to find them again, then you
can let them know that your Instagramor your TikTok or whatever, your X

(51:53):
account, your x account, sorry, don'ttake it down and you have a new one,
like what, what's the better scenario?
Like start building your email list.
And if you have one and you don'temail them, start emailing them.
Yes.
Honestly, I feel like sometimes peopleare like, Oh, I'm really scared.
I'm not totally sure what to say.
People are going to think I'm annoying.
And I mean-

(52:14):
we're all annoying.
Yeah.
We're all one) we're all annoying.
Especially if you're in marketing,you're supposed to kind, I mean,
you're going in like a consensual way.
Yeah, not in like a harmful way.
Don't be Ken.
But we're not annoying.
Like, I always ask people, my clientsand everyone, like, think about the

(52:34):
people that you follow that you likefollowed intentionally and you want to be
eventually you want to work with them oryou want to be sold what they're because
you like what they're doing so much.
Do you ever feel like their pitches, nomatter how many times you see them are
annoying and they're like every singletime, every single time my clients say no.
Exactly.
To, to which I say send the email.

(52:55):
What's the problem?
Yeah, I also feel like if like yousend more than one email a month
or a week, I sometimes like willforget if like you don't email me.
I don't remember.
Yeah.
And like when they send.
So I've been on email listwhere people have emailed me.
Once a month or once every two months,and I forget why I subscribe to her list.

(53:19):
And then because they emailed me soinfrequently and then their email
came in, I was like, I'm actuallymore prone to unsubscribing because
I'm like, oh, this isn't reallyrelevant to me anymore because
this just isn't yeah, I don't know.
And I think the second I agree, andI think the other thing with that
is like, don't tell people that youwere like, Oh, it's been a while.

(53:40):
Like, don't tell people that theydon't know that it's been a while.
They really don't literallywith everything else going on.
They have their own life.
There's a lot going on in their inbox.
You don't have to explain why youdidn't email them for a while.
Or why do you even like, even if we'retalking about it, why you didn't post
for a while, unless it's like a partof the story you're about to tell.
Don't.
Justify why you haven'tsaid something for a while.

(54:01):
Just get back into it.
Yes, and I would agree.
If like I haven't heard from someonelike every couple months or something,
I might like have, I probablyhave a higher probability of it.
And if I hear from someone everyweek, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna
maybe hear from them this week.
And that's cool.
I, I really enjoy like their emailsand, and what they're putting out there.
Obviously, you can email peopleonce a month if you want to do a

(54:21):
newsletter or something like that.
But, you know, I think trying to keepit consistent and actually doing it
once a month, if you're going to do it,that infrequently is really important.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now that we talked about whatyou think won't change, I am
curious to know what you are=
long live email.
Yeah, that's me and saying longlive long form content, please.
Yes.
I mean, also that.
Oh my gosh, we couldtalk about this forever.

(54:44):
But okay, so what are you-
It's meta right now.
I know.
What are you excited about in marketing?
I guess that's coming out.
There are a lot of things coming out,so I don't know if there's something
that you could be excited about.
Oh, that's so true.
Or just more like stressed,because I'm stressed.
Like ChatGPT, when it came outand everybody was like, Oh my
gosh, it's replacing everybody.
I'm like, you know, I kindof hope it replaces me.

(55:04):
Yeah, you know what?
I don't have to work.
Oh my gosh, it's so true.
Oh, my gosh.
I don't know.
What are you excited that's comingout before I answer this question?
Oh, that would be helpful.
Um, you know what?
Yeah, I don't have an answer.
I don't either.
I'm like, so into, um, website strategy,email marketing and long form content.

(55:28):
Like, I feel like I'm always going tobe that, like, that like solid, like
holistic marketing strategy person.
I'm not the trend person.
Like I'm not, I'm the personthat's going to set you up for
like long term sustainability.
I'm
not really the person that's goingto get you on the new thing and
like have all the ideas and I thinkthat's something that I like had

(55:51):
to accept is like, that's who I am.
That's who I am as a marketing person.
I'm, you know, and I think, you know,I think that's okay because I think
like it's hard for marketing peopleto encompass all of these things.
There's too many things.
And like you said, there'stoo many things coming out.
There's too many platforms that you needdifferent type of content ideas for that.
You need to pay attention to differenttype of trends and like get on board.

(56:12):
And I think that's all great.
But for me, like, I'm going to comein and like, really like put like from
like, kind of like fix the foundationif you've been doing it for a while and
then like have some cracks in it and wantto like tighten that up or really set
you up to like start from like a reallysolid foundation of like a marketing
funnel, like for instance, because alot of the times people don't have them

(56:33):
and like really like mapping out likea client journey, a customer journey
and being able for like to help you beconfident that all this energy you're
putting into all these trends is goingto convert to sales and revenue that you
need to survive, you know, so I thinkfor me, I've accepted that, you know.
Now that I'm like 36 going on37, I'm like, I think I might

(56:56):
know and it's like, I never.
You know, I don't, I don't want to say Inever thought I'd get here because I've
never really been a trend person as faras like social, as far as like marketing
goes, like I stay in the know of it,like I know what, you know, I know what's
going on so I can like, you know, informmy clients and let them know how long
term, like long form content and theirlong term strategy can play into that.
But I think for me, it's like, I'mgoing to be the person that like.

(57:18):
Really comes in and get solid onthose like ride or die marketing
platforms that have always beenhere and will always be there.
Cause that's my expertise.
And then like, let other peopleroll with like the trends, I think.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So now that you said that,I'm like, you know what?
That's right.
Because I, as much as I love seeing trendsand seeing like the new platform pop up

(57:41):
and kind of like experimenting it with it.
And then telling my, likeour clients, um, I can't.
Build, I mean, I can build it into thestrategy, but I can't do it long term
because like, yeah, my brain can'thandle it because I get overwhelmed.
Yeah, like, there's so much going onright now in like the marketing world.

(58:03):
So just what you were saying tolike, I love I love a good website.
Y'all like, I think it wasthe petty party with kat.
My God, the petty party episode is.
So good.
I think we were talking aboutall these people who are like
When people say you don't need websites.
Yes!
That's exactly what Iwas just about to say.

(58:24):
I was like, y'all, Idon't know about that.
We can go back to the example of what ifyou lose your social media for a while.
Yeah, exactly.
Where will they go?
Where will they go to know what youdo or to buy things from you Exactly.
Or to hire you.
Yeah.
What if they just need to Google you?
Like if they can't find you onInstagram, you don't have any
long form content somewhere else.

(58:44):
Um, and everything is justbased, based on they're gonna
know social anything about you.
Yeah.
And all they need to do is like Googleyour name or like your handle, but
you don't have literally anything elseexcept for your social media platforms.
Yeah.
How are they gonna find you?
And I'm sure you get this too, becauseI get it with my website also, where
they're like, Oh my gosh, like I wentto your website and it's so good.

(59:05):
And I like know your vibeand I know what you're about.
Go to MonicaSchrock.
com.
You're going to knowexactly what I'm about.
I love Monica's website.
And what did I do?
What I do?
I love my website too.
And it took work, like it took workto get it where it is, you know?
And like, It is work, but I,you can start really simple.
We won't go into the, like the granulardetails of it, but it's like, don't
overthink it, get something up wherepeople can like, get to know you

(59:26):
and know your vibe and like, knowwhat you do and know your services.
And like, don't just rely on yoursocial media profile to do that.
Cause people have to search, you don'thave to search, you want a homepage
that gives them all the informationthey need and like a really quick way.
Um, so they know, and yeah, so, you know.
Want a website.
You don't need, youdon't even just need it.

(59:47):
You want it.
Psychological.
Love that we like, love like thesethings, because honestly, what people
expect marketers to know is unreasonable.
It's absolutely unreasonable for oneperson to be able to be an expert in the
like, The spectrum of marketing and theplatforms and like a lot of the times,

(01:00:07):
like, you know, at my job right now thatI'm like, going to be done with in about a
month, like people are niched down, thesepositions are niched down into what they
are experts in, like, they don't need toknow, like, you know, there's someone,
there's a couple people in the like paidsocial realm, like, that's what they do.
They don't need to knowall this other stuff.
They can like they have an idea,they know about it, but they're

(01:00:30):
not like huge experts on itbecause they don't need to be.
Um, so it's kind of like expectingus to be like these unicorns, like
literally, I think marketers like mostof the time are like full on unicorns.
Like we have to be project managersand yeah, it's like wild and we're
the first ones to get the budget cut.
And we're the first ones to like-
we get blamed for things not selling.
We get blamed for things not selling..

(01:00:51):
It's not your marketing team,person, contractors problem.
It could honestly be a sales funnel thing.
It could be a-
-messaging thing.
It could be a messaging thing.
Yeah.
It could be that your productservice, whatever is not good anyways,
just think about it beforeyou blame your marketer.
Yeah.
Please go deep.

(01:01:13):
Yeah.
Ask yourself these difficultquestions before you come at us.
Seriously.
Petty party.
I know, seriously.
We had to throw it in.
Um, so before we wrap up thisepisode, because I feel like we've
been talking forever, I couldhave this conversation with you.
I know, but you are starting your day,and I know you have to get into work,
and I eventually have to end work.
Boo.

(01:01:33):
Boo me getting into work.
Yeah.
Um, I have a couplelast questions for you.
Okay.
Um, the first one is what is anuanced conversation that you
think we are not having enough of?
Mental health, for sure, like,definitely, I mean, the stigma is, like,
still there around it, like, we arenot having these conversations about

(01:01:57):
mental health, not that it exists,like, we still have to have those
conversations that mental health is notbeing addressed and that these, like,
challenges for people exist based onlike trauma, based on family history,
based on all these things, I thinkthe really nuanced conversation we're
having is when there's awareness of it.
When a company or a person is like, Oh, Ivalue mental health and blah, blah, blah.

(01:02:20):
The nuance conversation of like,what does that mean in practice?
Like how do you supportsomeone with mental health?
Because a lot of times I feel peoplebe like, I hear you, I see you, but
I'm not going to do anything about it.
And I'm going to still put thesepressures on you, even though
you've told me that, like.
And it's like, and also that nuancedconversation of someone's not weak because
they can't handle a certain workload orthey, they like, aren't able to perform

(01:02:42):
in a certain way at a certain time.
So I think for me, that's a big one.
I could answer that in so manydifferent ways, but what's fresh
for me right now is that because I'mlike, you know, we need to talk about.
What it means to actually supportpeople when they are coming to you and
divulging a really vulnerable thingthat they have this like mental health
diagnosis and that means X, Y, Z for them.
How do people support people like that?

(01:03:04):
And what are, yeah, what arethe, what are the boundaries?
What's the, cause it's scary to be in worksituations, especially maybe even family
situations too, and be like, hey, likeI'm not doing well because of X, Y, Z.
That's like a scary thing,especially at a job.
You know, so it's already like areally brave thing to say that.
So how do we actually like approachthese situations and help people?

(01:03:28):
I love that.
Which is a bigger systemicconversation as well.
Yes.
Uh, I don't know if we could cover it.
No, absolutely not.
Podcast episode.
Yeah, but maybe we can try.
Okay.
Last like full full question.
Do you have any journaling promptsor exploratory questions for people?
Because I love ending each episodewith journaling prompts for people

(01:03:49):
to You know, think about maybepeople aren't into journaling.
So things to just
think about if you're meditatingor literally, I don't know,
having a mindful moment.
Yeah, I think, um, and maybethis is like, I know I was
supposed to think about this, but
I told you this earlier.
No, it's fine.
Yeah, you did.
I think like for me.
When I think about for me, what, what,um, how I'm thinking when I'm journaling

(01:04:12):
is like, how can I get this out?
So like my anxiety, like, youknow, goes to the side, like
kind of like falls off of me.
So I think for me, a question that Iasked myself is like, what have I done
this week where my anxiety is kindof like, just like melted off of me?
Like, what was I doing in that moment?
Was I like talking to someone?
Was I reading a comic book?
Was I listening to music?

(01:04:33):
Was I playing basketball?
Um, so I think it's It's for me,that's a great question, because then
I can recreate those, those momentsand know that that does that for me.
So I think that's what I would say.
Oh, I am going tojournal on that tomorrow.
Thank you.
I feel like I'm not a good person tolike make up journaling questions,
but that went pretty well.
That one I think was great.

(01:04:54):
I mean, yeah, I'm going to definitelyjournal on it because I'm like, oh, yeah.
Why wouldn't I journal on thosethings and then try and like,
create more pockets of them, right?
We, we a lot of the time journal on what'sgiving us anxiety and we don't journal
about what's taking the anxiety away.
I do that a lot.
I do, right?
Yeah.
I feel anxious.
Help me.
Yeah.

(01:05:14):
What's making me feel anxious?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But what's making me not feel anxious?
I love that.
I love that.
Um, okay, y'all.
Well, I wish I couldhave Monica here forever.
Seriously.
I wish I could be here forever.
I wish we could see eachother again in person.
I know we will.
We will.
We will actually.
Eventually we'll see each other.
Yes.
I'll come to Spain.

(01:05:34):
I'll come to Spain.
Yeah.
Come hang.
I honestly have been lookingup vegan spots for you.
Oh my gosh.
That's so exciting.
Yeah.
Cause you know, where I live,there's not in other cultures.
I, I, I expand my like palate a little bitbecause I do want to experience it so we
can do vegetarian, like maybe a little.
Yeah.
But vegetarian options here in Toledo.
Not there.
They are questionable.

(01:05:55):
It's like pescetarian questionable.
Okay.
I could do that.
I could do that.
Okay.
Well, we'll talk about this.
Now that everyone knows we'vegot the logistics figured out.
Um, well, thank you so, so muchfor being here on the podcast.
It's been awesome.
Just to like.
Go deeper into this with you.
I feel like we've talked aboutso many different things through
WhatsApp and stuff, but then Idon't know that we've ever had like

(01:06:16):
a full conversation on WhatsApp.
Yeah, so this has been really nice.
Thanks.
I know.
I feel I also feel likewe answer each other.
Like, what is it asynchronously?
Yes.
No, that's true.
I mean, we're on hugely differenttime zones, so there's that
like, I'll be like, oh, crap.
I didn't answer Cassandra.
It'll be the middle of like my day,which is like really late time for me.

(01:06:38):
So for everybody who is listening, um,can you share where people can find you?
I will put all of the things thatwe talked about in the show notes
so that people can look you up.
Yeah, two places, um, that are easy tofind me is, uh, my website, monicashrock.
com.
And then my Instagram, my website, myInstagram, um, which is like full of like

(01:06:59):
mostly like personal things, like just mylife and non binary mental health journeys
and things like that is @Money@Shrock.
And, and.
I'll put it.
Yeah.
Spelling will be
- oh, also play like a day your podcast.
Yes.
It's @PlayLikeAThey on Instagram.
Um, and then it's on Spotify,um, and Apple music and you can

(01:07:19):
listen on buzzsprout if you don'thave either of those things.
And final, final, final question.
Um, do you have a cause or NGO thatyou love and support that you think
maybe some other people might beinterested in checking out as well?
Yeah, I have so many, but the one I'mgoing to go with now, because for me,
the, um, the environmental crisis andclimate change is always so top of mind

(01:07:42):
for me, and maybe it is for other people,but I used to work, um, with a nonprofit
called Rainforest Action Network, andthey do corporate pressure campaignings,
uh, for big corporations like banksand brands to stop deforestation
and, uh, fossil fuel funding.
So, you know, for communities, for likerainforests and for our environment in

(01:08:02):
general, and, um, help, um, communitieson the front lines, uh, with resources
to help them stop these terribleprojects that happen in their backyard.
So I really support them andwhat they're doing, and I have
been in the inner workings of it.
So I highly recommend supporting them.
Love that.
I will also link that in theshow notes for you to check out.
Well, y'all, thank you forjoining us for this episode, and

(01:08:25):
we will see you in the next one.
Stay fierce, fam.
Bye.
Bye.
If you're hearing this message, that meansyou made it to the end of the episode.
Yay.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this conversationand had an idea on future topics.
If you'd like to see covered onthe podcast, send me a message on
Instagram @CassandraTLe with your idea.

(01:08:48):
If we decide to explore the topic,we'll also give you a shout out.
Want to hang out with me inother areas of the internet?
Subscribe to the Doing Good newsletterto receive exclusive access to personal
musings from me and podcast guests.
Find the link in the show notes.
And don't forget tosubscribe if you haven't.
Thank you and see you in the next episode.
Stay fierce, fam.

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