Nailah King: Conscientious storytelling to cast spells and change the world

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Your life and your conversations andlike how you interact with people is
not the season finale of any sitcom.
Welcome back to the I'm lost.
So what podcast?
This is your host, Cassandra Le.
And in today's episode, I'm superexcited to bring to you a conversation
with my friend, Nailah of The ContentWitches is Nailah King is a storytelling
strategist and founder of The ContentWitches is who works with conscious

(00:22):
leaders to help them translate theirunique impact into client success
through conscientious storytelling.
All of that sounds beautiful.
And in today's conversation,we are covering what actually
is conscientious storytelling.
How do you create spaces ofbelonging through words and language?
Surprise, surprise.
We get into how conscientiousstorytelling is a factor of that.

(00:44):
And of course, Nailah and I reach outall the time through WhatsApp and we
love sharing petty energy opinions.
So at the end of this conversation,you'll get a little taste of Nailah's
Petty energy opinions, rapid fire style.
And throughout there are some reallygreat pieces of information here around

(01:06):
storytelling, the stories that wetell ourselves and some really good
reflective questions for you all.
I'm just excited to dive into this.
And before we get into the actualconversation, I do want to share
a content warning that there aretalks of anxiety and depression.
Without further ado, hereis Our lovely conversation

(01:27):
with Nailah.
Hello.
Hello, everyone.
I'm Cassandra Le and you'relistening to I'm lost, so what?
The podcast exploring betweenbelonging and carving your own path
for all the peeps out there who kindof know what you're doing, but still
question what the fuck is going on?
Yeah, I'm with you.
Hi, Nailah.

(01:47):
How are
you?
Good.
How are you?
Good.
I am super excited to haveyou on the I'm lost, so what?
Podcast.
We were just talking about cats andchildren, and we're not going to be
talking about that in this episode,but we are going to be kind of
discovering and exploring topics aroundconscientious storytelling, something

(02:09):
that you actually provide for yourclients, what spaces of belonging
through words and language look likeand well, in our WhatsApp conversations,
I love our petty parties so we arebringing a little bit of that into the
podcast and kind of doing a rapid firepetty, how, how would you describe it?

(02:30):
Like a petty, it's notreally a petty party.
It's like rapid fire, petty questions,petty bounce around, petty vent session.
Think like petty opinions.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's what I would call it.
Okay.
I like that.
Okay.
So at the end of this episode, uh, butwe will be getting into petty opinions.
So I'm super excited.
There's lots to share.

(02:50):
Really.
I think it's going to be quitea discussion with a little
shadiness, a little pettiness.
It'll be a dose of reality ornot, or they'll look at us.
I will be listening to us and be like,these two, who do they think they are?
But it's my podcast.
So whatever.
Well, to quote one of my favorite realityTV podcasters, we quote their favorites.

(03:13):
People will do anything butstart their own podcast.
So they are welcome to.
Oh, my God.
Oh, have you seen, do youknow the Instagram account?
I don't even know what their handle is.
It's the guy that holdsthe cardboard signs.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
I don't know them by name, but I do knowthat their like content isn't either.
Yes.
So actually one of the posts thatthey shared of them holding like

(03:38):
a cardboard sign was Don't starta podcast, just go to therapy.
And I was like, Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think even before therapy, just get ajournal for those ideas out on your own.
And I say this coming from a placeof like, I used to journal a lot.
And then the Internet happened.
And now I'm like, slowly makingmy way back to journaling.

(03:58):
And, uh, I just think journaling is agreat practice for working things out.
Not everything needs to be a podcastor to be on the internet and like
not everyone can access therapy.
So yeah, a journal is great.
They're typically They're very affordable.
They are.
I love that.
I have a question for you.
This is, I mean, before we get into it.

(04:19):
Did you ever have aTumblr or a Live Journal
I had both.
I think I deleted it.
Well, I still have a Tumblr.
Like, technically.
But it's obviously private.
It was more like a music journal.
And then I had a live journal duringmy teen years, which I respect the
decision to delete it, but I think justbecause, like, I was still figuring

(04:43):
it out in terms of, like, emotionsand, like, really going through it,
like, from a depression perspective.
So I think I kind of miss that cultureof, like, just being able to say, to
go online and kind of say your truth.
You know, that's not harmful, obviously,but like what you were feeling and your
emotions and kind of working through allof those things as like a young person.

(05:06):
I feel like TikTok and all that stuffprobably works for some people, but
yeah, I kind of miss the, like, Italk about this a lot in my essay
series, maybe too much, actually, isthat like, I miss the old internet.
I miss the old internet.
But now.
Yeah, I find myself like, I don't knowif this is just like moving towards
grandma core, but like, I just findmyself more like, I want to get offline

(05:26):
and yeah, start journaling again.
I'm like, it's both a return to thepast in terms of like, you should
journal on paper and do all that.
And also just kind of walkingaway from like social media from
like a personal perspective.
I obviously have a business account, butyeah, I'm just not finding it fulfilling,
but I do miss the like Tumblr of it all.

(05:48):
Same.
I was just talking to, uh, one of myother friends and we were talking about
how long we've been on the internetand I was telling them, you know, I
had like a little bit of a come tolife moment where, um, I was like, Am
I going to be creating social mediacontent when I'm like, super old about

(06:13):
how to, you know, grow your account?
Like, am I going to be creatingcontent about creating content?
Is this my life?
But before we get into that, becauseI feel like there's lots of things,
um, I think also when I get intothe questions about conscientious
storytelling, I feel like exploring moreabout Tumblr and what you were saying
about the old Internet and kind of justcoming on and really sharing, I think,

(06:34):
just your emotions and like withoutjudgment or without fear that somebody
is going to literally come and attackyou in your dms or in your comments.
Also, I know like some people processon TikTok and I've seen those videos
and they are unhinged and lovely andlike they totally hit a spot for me too.
But sometimes I'm like, I don't know.
This is for me.
But anyways, okay.
So before we get into all ofthat, I always like to start

(06:57):
every interview with the question,what does being lost mean to you?
And can you describe that feeling ofbeing lost and your experience with it?
Um, I mean, I think I had sort ofseveral, I think this is like seasonality.
Right.
For me, the metaphor of like, floatingor being really untethered kind of

(07:18):
encapsulates the whole feeling of beinglost because when I think about what's
the opposite of being lost, I thinkabout like physically being grounded to
a space, um, whatever that means to you,and being like tied to something and being
lost, it's kind of the sense of you'rejust floating and it's directionless

(07:38):
and it's almost like an empty space.
You just like, it's not navigablebecause you can't like, see
forward or feel your way forward.
And I guess, like, I can't reallythink of one experience of feeling lost
because one, like, my experience withdepression, like, complicates this.
And two, for me, it's seasonal.

(07:59):
I go through periods, especially sinceI started my business where I just
feel like I don't know what I'm doing.
I don't know what I'm saying.
I don't know what direction to go in.
And this is always where I alsofind myself being like, maybe I
need a business coach or a businessstrategist because I just don't know.
I feel directionless.
But sometimes it's also just leaninginto the feeling of being lost and

(08:21):
just seeing what comes from that.
And it's not always negative.
It's made me realize that like, Ireally miss having a creative outlet.
Hmm.
Maybe making my way back to creativewriting because I was commissioned
for something that I submitted to likeback in Canada, and I was submitted
for like a big Canadian writing prize.

(08:44):
You can Google that.
Amazing.
But I didn't long list or anything,but speaking of being petty, but I
don't want to list, but I haven'treally written anything like new new.
Since, like, before NaNoWriMo, whichwas an interesting experience, so I
kind of feel like the experience ofbeing lost is, like, also, again just

(09:04):
making your way back to like stuff youused to like and stuff you used to do.
So yeah, that's kind of my long windedway of saying it's like the feeling
of being untethered to stuff oranything, but also like maybe looking
backwards to see if there's somethingthere to like make you feel grounded.
I love that.
And I like what you said tooabout how being lost is not

(09:27):
necessarily like negative.
It's definitely an experience, uh,it's something, but I don't know if
it's always like a negative experiencebecause sometimes I feel like, I mean,
this might sound super cliche gettinglost allows you to kind of just what you
were saying really come back to thingsthat grounded you before things that
like were fun and creative when you weretalking about the like having a creative

(09:53):
outlet, do you think, well, two questions.
Do you think that we as.
A culture society have kind of movedaway from creative outlets because of
social media, um, and like literallycapitalism telling everybody that we need
to monetize all the things to make money.
Which I am all for, like,okay, if you want to make your

(10:15):
money, then make your money.
But also sometimes noteverything needs to be monetized.
And then also, how have you found,like, making time for your creative
outlet as an adult who has, like,responsibilities and, like, life stuff?
Yeah, so I guess I'll address thequestion about the monetization of it

(10:38):
all and, like, a creative practice.
Yeah, writing is, like,challenging because there's
always this latent expectation.
Like, you can't just write something,especially if you're in, like, a literary
circle, or, like, if you've been publishedbefore, which I've had, like, several
short story publications, and I've beenbeing asked for at least five years since

(11:02):
one of my last stories got published to,like, really work on something long form,
and through my part time job, every timewe have a meeting, they do a free write,
It's just based on like a random prompt.
I have like, yet, like once we likeread them out, I don't go back to them.
And I almost wish I had thediscipline to just like, do a free
write with like no expectations.

(11:22):
But I think that's like themachine of creating art right now.
It's that you always have to, therealways has to be like a final product.
And some of this is likeindividual responsibility.
I would love to just like write ina journal and leave it on a shelf.
But there's always a part of me that hasthese ambitions to like publish a short
story collection, to publish a novel.

(11:43):
So I think it's really challengingas a creative, especially right now,
to kind of navigate those worldsof like, you've created something,
you want to share it, you want toobviously be paid for what you shared.
So you have to go throughthese kind of commercials.
And it's just, it's justa really tricky time.
But I always think that the antidoteto that might be picking something

(12:04):
that is new to you and like, you haveno desire to like take it any further.
So like, I've always wantedto like do like salsa.
But I'm not going to become like a salsa,premier salsa dancer, but I mean, I
guess anything's possible, but I likethat seems highly unlikely and that
seems like something that could be justlike you show up to your dance class,

(12:24):
you have a good time and you go home.
I think the challenge with having acreative practice that you've been
doing in my case, since you were.
before kindergarten is like you'vehad time to refine and practice it.
And so it seems almost like a waste quoteunquote to not like do anything with it.
So that would kind of be my likeunsolicited advice is like if you

(12:44):
have something that you've been reallycultivating, try something that you
haven't cultivated and like give yourselfpermission to be bad at it because
chances are you're either going towork towards improving that or you're
just going to be having fun doing it.
And I know that like a lot ofmy friends who are creative.
Um, that's what they've had to do.
They've had to pick something and justlike have the courage to be quote bad at

(13:04):
it and like just do it in and of itself.
I think it's really challenging.
It's like you've been doing art for years,or you went to school for years for that,
or you did a master's in creative writingto not do something with it because
that's the, like, cultural implementation.
And then the second question.
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty bad at this.
I, like, I think you have tobe really intentional about it.

(13:28):
I can only speak from like thecreative writing perspective.
I don't know about any otherdisciplines, but like, I think I'm
still a bit old school in that sensethat like, it's just going to happen.
The, the creativity will start one day.
And like, I am probably the casestudy of like, maybe, or you might
be four or five years out from yourlast publication, which isn't to say

(13:49):
that what you're doing is not writing.
There's a lot of mental stuff thathappens with like plotting and
everything, but I would say unlessyou're creating like a active practice.
So like I'm not like a workshop person.
I don't really enjoy those spacesI don't really like writing groups.
So especially as I've like gotten olderand like my anxiety and depression kind

(14:11):
of comes into a greater play but for me,being intentional probably would be to
maybe take some more classes and just likeactually build a time to do it when I was
doing NaNoWriMo remote back in November.
I set aside the, like, 20 to 30 minutesevery morning and it was stressful,
especially on days where I was like, busywith client work and stuff, but like,

(14:33):
things got done, it didn't like, livein a vacuum, so I think the challenge-
I'm hesitant to be like, give me time,because I don't know people's like,
lives and commitments, and like, I'mnot, I don't have children, I don't have
like, certain, I'm not a caretaker, Idon't have certain responsibilities,
but I think the biggest advice that I'vegotten, and my friend Chelene Knight

(14:53):
runs like, a writing thing, is sort ofand publishing a day for the studio.
So if you are a creativewriter, check that out.
Um, is kind of eitherreclaiming pockets of time.
So like if you're if you're waitingin line for anything, that's
probably like a good time to write.
And then yeah, justbeing intentional about.
Creating that space, whateverthat looks like to you.

(15:14):
Maybe not everybody can be StephenKing and write daily, but whatever
that looks like to you, it might belike Saturday mornings are your day.
I think that's the challenge isjust making sure that you pick the
time and then kind of stick to it.
Yeah, I agree.
I do feel like I am more easilydistracted because of social media.

(15:36):
So the pockets of time that I thinkI could be, you know, giving myself
that time to explore whatever creativeendeavor I am curious about gets eaten.
And so I have to likeactively kind of push back.
When my hand or arm automatically goesto grab, uh, my phone and then next

(16:00):
thing you know, my finger automaticallytouches Instagram button or TikTok button.
And then once that, once I touchthat button, especially TikTok
I'm out for like two hours.
I have to like really activelyand consciously be like, okay,
stop, put it down, grab somethingelse, which is very interesting.
Um, I feel like that would have tobe like a whole other podcast to

(16:23):
talk about, you know, our addictionto all of these things, but I want
to get into, um, the conscientiousstorytelling and especially since you
are a writer, you have published work.
What is conscientious storytelling forall the people who are listening and
they're kind of like, what does that mean?
Because, um, in marketingterms, we always talk about
storytelling, use stories to sell.

(16:45):
Everybody loves a good story.
If you work in media or film, thenyou know, okay, what is the story arc?
We love just hearingabout people's stories.
We love reading people's underdog stories.
But what actually is conscientiousstorytelling, and how does that actually
apply to not just work, I guess, and likemarketing, but everything that we do?

(17:06):
So, conscientious storytellingis just like my kind of umbrella
term of like lots of differentprinciples and con and concepts.
So, like, obviously, it brings in.
Inclusive language and like contentand context is like a big one, citing
your peers is another big one, butultimately it's about when we're

(17:28):
creating storytelling narrativearound our businesses to kind of do
that responsibly to be conscientiousabout it to make sure we're not.
Um, being harmful in the language andnarratives that we're putting forward,
and this includes doing things thatmight be harmful to ourselves, like
sharing really overly traumatic stories.

(17:48):
of things that may have happened tous and putting ourselves out there and
our personal pain for the sake of maybepromoting something, if that makes sense.
So, like, I'm always careful to be mindfulof the fact that I do have these lived
experiences that have, you know, created,like, challenging outcomes for me, but
I try not to position that as, like,something to, like, use as a lesson or,

(18:11):
like, use as positioning on, like, a salespage, because, like, one, I don't know
my reader, that might, that might, theymight have their own personal experiences.
That, you know, this might beupsetting for them to come across.
And I also want to keepsome things for myself.
So yeah, just kind of like, that'slike the biggest example I see a lot.
It's like sometimes people takingtheir like personal, like personal

(18:31):
stories and kind of sharing them inmaybe not so appropriate context.
So like, yeah, on like a sales page.
And then the kind of biggest example ofsomething I personally do not consider to
be a conscientious storytelling tactic.
It's like using Cinderellastories because.
There's a lot of contextmissing from those.
Very rarely do we cop to, like, anyhelp, do these people cop to any

(18:56):
help that they've had, or any, like.
Like generational wealth, like there'sso much context that goes into like how
people become successful or whatever.
And I think the whole ranks to richesCinderella story, and I've talked
about this a lot of my blog as well.
It just kind of sets up a likenarrative that you have to have
this like big elaborate story tolike find success in your business

(19:17):
or like kick off your business.
And that's like not really.
Everybody's experience like the averageperson takes like five years up to
five to eight years to kind of kicktheir business off and this whole
notion, and there's many versionsof this that they had a laptop and a
dream and then eight months later theywere making they were doing 10, 000.
You know, a month, month, and like, Ican't deny that that's probably some

(19:40):
people's experience, but I just think itsets up a poor precedent, and it's not,
it's just not the type of story thatwe should be like, constantly trying to
churn out or like, trying to frame ourown story as, like, you should tell your
story as your story, you know, plays out.
It doesn't have to, you don't haveto stuff every story of yours into

(20:01):
these kind of dignified narrativesto make them resonate with people.
But that's kind of exampleof like, What conscientious
storytelling is and also what it is.
I love that.
Um, the rags to riches storyin the online business space.
I see the rags to riches story all thetime and it's an easy story to use because

(20:24):
like we all kind of know that that's.
What people kind of like seeing whetherit's harmful or not, they might not be,
you know, we might not be fully aware ofhow that narrative, like, really creates
this weird dynamic of not just that.
Oh, success looks like this.
Like you go from wrecks to riches andlike, Oh my gosh, this is, you know,

(20:45):
you're now living the life, but Ithink as somebody who either could,
could be starting their businessor even just anybody wanting to do
anything now, they're looking for thosetypes of stories in their life and
I feel like I've had this situationwhere I don't know if it was with
my business or something else, but Istarted feeling like, well, who am I?

(21:09):
Because I didn't go through likehardship or I don't have like a, Oh,
I had this like laptop and a dream.
And then I did everything,blah, blah, blah.
Um, so then it makes me almost likefeel that like my story is not worth
sharing and that I need to almostlike create something like that

(21:32):
in my life to start sharing and
Yeah, I feel like that's one.
It's a little harmful.
Maybe not a little.
It's a lot harmful.
And it really skews the storiesthat actually are seen, I
think, in like mainstream media.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat, but those are my thoughts.
I mean, yeah, it's, it's the whole,like, one type of story because, like,

(21:55):
again, I can't make totally sweepinggeneralizations, but from what I have
witnessed, it's typically somebody whoactually just has access to generational
wealth, um, or a partner who's willingto help them, and, like, that's certainly
part of my story, but, you know, I hadto get a part time job when I was low on
funds, and I'm happy with that decision.
It wasn't like Ben got another job and Ijust kept going, you know, so I think it

(22:22):
creates one type of story and then thedemographic of the people who perpetuate
this story are people who are more likelyto have access to generational wealth.
They have more access to more toolsand more support, whether that's like
funding, grants, et cetera, et cetera.
And people tend to getsalty with me about this.
It's not necessarily that having accessto those things is a bad thing, but

(22:46):
if there's only one type of storyand you cannot access the things
that make that story possible, thenit makes your story seem less than.
Yeah.
give you the false personal perceptionthat my story is not good enough or
my story won't resonate because it'slike this type of story and I always
wonder because I wrote about this onInstagram as it pertains to like the

(23:07):
three acts that is it popular becausepeople really enjoy it or the popular
because it keeps getting regurgitated?
Wait, do you want me toanswer that question?
Or is that more like arhetorical for the audience?
Because I'm like, Hmm.
That's right.
I mean, it's rhetorical for theaudience, but I think it is like
something to reflect on in terms ofwhen you're trying to create stories.

(23:29):
Is this the story that feels true to you?
Because it's your truth?
Or do you feel like, Oh, I read somewherethat this is the formula to use to
like convince people to buy stuff.
So that's what I should use.
Yeah, or get recognized for something orI don't know, get an award or, or, you
know, get into mainstream media or get aviral TikTok video or something like that.

(23:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, and who decides, like, what'smainstream, like, who decides, like,
again, I think it's creating this, like,monolithic, like, storytelling culture
where the goal is to, like, be viral and,yeah, I just think it's creating, like, a
particular type of narrative that we keepseeing over and over again and, like, I
just don't think it's, like, interesting.

(24:15):
In addition to it being, like, harmfuland all the things we've, um, discussed,
that's, like, a quick way to getme to, like, turn off, right, um.
And I think, like, Maggie from BSBusiness always points out about, like,
the consumer getting savvier and savvierand savvier, and I think, like, your
audience on social media is getting moresavvy and more skeptical that, like, as
soon as I see a storytelling formula, andthat could be just, like, picture this,

(24:40):
you know, like, I'm already tuning out.
So I think there's lots of layersto, you know, why contentious
storytelling is valuable.
It's a more, you know.
It's a more respectful way ofsharing stories, certainly, but
also, like, you're dealing with apopulation that, like, In debunking
and used to debunking these tropes.

(25:02):
So, like, I think it's time for, uh, allmy business to grow up a little and, like,
there are lots of storytelling archetypes.
The three act story, which is kind oflike the Cinderella story, is, like, a
very, like, Western way to tell a story.
So, there are lots ofways to tell a story.
I think just, like, if you can take awaynothing from this part of the discussion,

(25:23):
it's, like, does it make sense?
Did your life happen?
with a, you know, incitingincident, rising action and climax.
Like, does that make, does yourexperience make sense in that framework?
Because I would say that like, especiallyas an online business owner, and based
on like what folks have shared withme recently, it's more like this.

(25:43):
Yeah.
It's more like a wave.
So like already, it's not likethat whole storytelling framework
isn't going to work for me.
I would love to be able to say, I got alaptop and my dreams just, you know, there
was one, there was one sole challengeand then it ended off with like, I am
living the life, living the life andeight figure entrepreneur, whatever figure

(26:07):
we're at right now, seven, eight, nine.
Um, that's not really my story.
I don't know anymore.
I think I saw seven.
I think I saw seven or eight too.
And I'm like, how many zeros is that?
Like, I had to actually countfor those like eight figures.
What is that?
And that's another thing, like,did someone just decide that, like,
millionaire wasn't cool enough?
Are we trillionaires now?

(26:27):
Are we billionaires?
Wait, is it billionaireand then trillionaire?
Billionaire, billionaire.
Okay.
Okay.
Which is actually even more confusingbecause in Spanish, Mario and I
always get confused because I'llbe like, un millon, and then he's
like, wait, is that mil millones?
What's that?
And he's like, I think in the US,the way you describe 1 million is,

(26:49):
or 1 billion is different than howthey would describe it over here.
So we, when it gets to those largernumbers, we, we just get confused.
But anyways, um, I have anotherquestion to ask you about
conscientious storytelling.
How Well, I guess I don't know if thisis really conscientious storytelling, but
how do you balance your creative writingwith writing for clients and the business?

(27:11):
Because, I mean, we both work inmarketing and copywriting, um, and
for all the people who are herewho might not be doing that, we
basically, or don't know what that is.
We basically write tohopefully get people to buy.
That is kind of like acrude way of saying it, but.
More or less.
So how do you balance creativewriting with all of the other

(27:36):
marketing writing for yourself oryour clients for your business?
So for me, I mean, I kind ofjust treat them as like separate
skills and separate buckets.
I obviously try to bring a sense ofcreative to my, um, to my projects and
how I work with clients and that's, youknow, typically the thing I tell clients
is that like, why my client stories Ithink stand out is because like, I'm

(28:00):
not married to one particular type ofstructure because I have this creative
writing background, I will alwaysfollow where the story goes, which I
know from creative writing is alwaysin interesting and unexpected places.
I think the challenge I have is like, Iwill be, you know, really showing up for
a client and I think you shared this inthe email and then my blog will be dead.
Like, unable to be, you know, publishanything, have anything published

(28:24):
that's new for like quite some timebecause I tend to batch that content.
So I think it's not so much adivide between like creative writing
and like more commercial writing.
It's like, how do I balance writingfor the business, like my business, to
make sure that my traffic and all thatstuff is, you know, Doing its thing, a.
k.
a.
practicing what I preach, versus when Ihave like a full client stack, because

(28:44):
I'm like a true solopreneur, like, otherthan some odd changes that like, maybe my
boyfriend does on the back end from thewebsite, like, it's me by myself, it's
not like he's gonna start writing someblogs for me, so I think that's the bigger
challenge, because it's that constant pushand pull of like, I got to show up for
my clients and be there for them 100%.

(29:04):
But like, if you're an earlierentrepreneur, like me, you can't just
like abandon your marketing becausethen you're going to make your, I'm
not going to say that you're going tobring about a feasted famine period,
or you deserve it, but like, it's veryhard to go through the sort of feast
period, and then you wrapped up yourprojects and then suddenly it's like

(29:28):
tumbleweeds and then you have to put allthat energy now into marketing yourself
and creating that content marketing,like it's a really big challenge for me
and I wish I had like a best practice,but I'm still kind of figuring it out.
I think that is harder for me thanlike, making sure that I make the time
for writing stories because I'm stillkind of tied to a literary world.

(29:53):
Definitely in Scotland, but likecertainly back home in Canada.
I still have connections there.
Got it.
Yeah.
So then for all the people who mightbe struggling or like working through
this challenge, what, well, yousaid you don't have a best practice.
So, um, I guess, how would you, ifyou had advice and solicited advice,

(30:17):
um, What would you share with them?
I mean, I think it's all about balance.
I know there's like people who arevery like, you kind of got to camp,
even though I hate binaries, butyou've got the people who are like,
just back everything book, like twoto three days about all your content.
And like, there's low energy folkslike myself who are like, that's

(30:38):
great, but you've got to have energyto do that batching and then I think
it's a post that you shared a whileago, you're also like not, you're
not as able to quickly react to likenews or trends or anything like that.
So like, if I were to give a bestpractice, I think you kind of need a
bit of both in your planning, have somecontent that you've batched, but give

(31:02):
yourself permission to maybe deviate fromlike a schedule or a content calendar.
Or like something interestingto you has come up.
That you want to blog about or post about,but I think it's like just making again.
It's being similarly intentional to makingthe time to do it within your capacity.

(31:22):
If you're a solopreneur, it's maybeonly realistic to publish a blog a
week or maybe even a month dependingon your capacity, but just trying
to find your like to measure yourcapacity, your kind of bare minimum,
or to put it more positively, your,you know, your most viable product.
So what's like, what's thething that you can get done?

(31:43):
Um, that'll move you forwardin your marketing efforts.
So like I try to most of the time, atleast create a social post at some time.
I try to keep up withmy monthly newsletter.
I tried to publish a blog atleast once a month, a new blog.
And if I can't do that, then I go back tothe archives and pull out old blogs and

(32:05):
try to remix them in some way on social.
So I think that's kind of my biggesttakeaway is figure out what your
capacity is as an individual andtry to work within that to kind of
create your sort of bare minimumsof what you have to absolutely do.
And then it's also, there's no shamein your game if you also reach out to
people to get referrals, whether that'slike, can you share, reach out to your

(32:26):
network personally, feel like can youshare these blogs or if you have a client
who you think might be in alignment withme, can you share some of my offers or
offerings or just do an introduction ifyou don't necessarily want to put a lot
of pressure on the person for a referral.
Yeah, we'll have all of those.
That's kind of like mymore official advice.
So for all the people who are listening,Basically, I would just, um, scroll back

(32:51):
maybe 30 seconds and like note take on alot of that because I feel like that is
a really great quick action plan for you.
If you are looking for clients,if you want to kind of divide your
and it's not creative writing.
Maybe it's like another creative thingthat kind of like fuels all of the stuff
that you're Doing or want to be doing.

(33:12):
I think what you said in like the waybeginning when we were talking about
this question, or when I first askedthis question was, um, treating both
as separate camps I think is superimportant because 1 is commercial.
1 is.
It's supposed to be like a job and thenwhatever creative project, if it's writing
or something else, um, that is just likeyour space, a space for you to explore

(33:34):
and maybe get lost in or, um, kind ofjust, just see wherever it takes you.
So.
Moving on, now that we're talkingabout like spaces and stuff, I would
love to know how you create spaces ofbelonging through words and language,
because I know that's something that youspecifically help your clients do, um,

(33:56):
and I think in general in the world, uh,very important, you know, to explore.
So what does that actually meanto create spaces of belonging
through words and language?
Um, what does that?
Actually look like andcan you share examples?
It doesn't have to necessarilybe in online business space,
but maybe in other really life.

(34:18):
What does that look like?
Well, in life, I would say that,like, show people some grace.
I think that's always like a good tactic.
I think because of social media, weare like socialized to kind of think
the worst of situations and like byextension, maybe people, I would say
that like showing people some grace.
being kind in a way that isjust kind of hearing people

(34:39):
out, getting to know them first.
Firstly, I think like, and you talkedabout this and I talked about this
in the essays too, like parasocialrelationships are like really
challenging how we relate to one another.
And I don't think it'shappening in the best way.
So I think one of the ways to createbelonging is to leave any assumptions that
you have at the door and just like kind ofwait for people to let you know otherwise.

(35:04):
I think Yeah, I think some somechallenging takeaways of this culture
is that, like, the hyper vigilanceof this, like, always kind of
assuming the worst of situations.
And I think, yeah, showing somefolks some grace, when deserved, of
course, um, could be really helpful.
In terms of writing, using inclusivelanguage, making your content
accessible, really big ones for me.

(35:26):
And then, in terms of actual,like, hard, kind of, copy things.
Always make sure to include youraccessibility information on sales page.
Um, no one wants to go lookingaround to see if you have
transcript, which you should.
Um, but that information should be readilyavailable, whether you put it, well I
would reiterate it in a FAQ, but certainlyif you have an online course, include

(35:48):
the transcript information and any otheraccessibility features, like if you have
interpretation or anything like that.
And then in community spaces.
The use of a braver spaces policy, makingsure to be mindful of people's like
privacy as it pertains to like data andthose types of things is a great way to
foster belonging, creating rules aroundlike confidentiality and what shared

(36:12):
is another way, great way to convey andactually embody a space of belonging.
So there's lots of different waysthat you could do that kind of
think of like in social media.
I think it's social media being reallyclear about your like boundaries as well.
It's probably importantfor folks to know that.
If they're in your space and people areacting up in the content comments, you're

(36:35):
going to like, do something about that.
Yeah.
I think there's just like a lot ofdifferent tactics that kind of are in and
around words and language, but those arekind of the big ones that stand out to me.
I love these.
Honestly, a lot of these are really greatthings that you can start implementing
now, especially if you have an onlinebusiness, um, something else that while
you were talking about this, like, I knowwe were talking about it in the context

(36:57):
of like business and creating, um, a more,inclusive space within your business.
But I was thinking, especiallybecause last season, I explored a lot
about like friendships and just likerelationships that I've had, and like the
transformation of these relationships.
And a lot of what you were saying, Iwas like, have I talked about this with

(37:18):
like, maybe not in such like a formal,Oh yeah, here are like the expectations
and the I mean, maybe the boundarieswould be important, but like, you know,
here's the transcript to our conversation.
No, but how I talked about thiswith the people who I think are
really important in my life.
So it could be like my friends, my family,my, my partner, how can I kind of take

(37:41):
what you shared and bring it into likemy in person relationships, which I think
is actually almost scarier because I knowI've had conversations with people who
are like, Oh, how did you get to the pointin your business where you were like,
like comfortable and brave enough to saythat you are an anti capitalist marketer.

(38:02):
And I'm like, well, Imean, it just took time.
You know, like I, it took me years toget comfortable saying these things.
And then also years to build upboundaries for myself and what I feel
comfortable with boundaries or, you know,strengths, courage, bravery to share
all of these things and not be afraidof like backlash or like losing money.

(38:24):
It also takes a certain level of privilegeto be able to say that and then be
okay with like business not coming in.
But I don't know if I've actuallydone that with, like, my personal
relationships, thinking about, like,my family, for one, um, that sounds
like a conversation for therapy.
Uh, we don't need to discussthis on the podcast, but, like,
when have I actually approached?

(38:45):
This is more like a rhetoricalquestion for me, but, like, when
have I approached maybe my partner?
And said, Hey, the space is safe.
I mean, it's implied, of course, butlike, maybe it's not because there could
be certain topics that we would need tolike reestablish, you know, this brave
space for both of us to share, becausemaybe it is a brave space when we're

(39:08):
talking about like what to eat for dinner.
But as we encroach topics, like wejust watched Barbie and we were talking
about, How men and them breaking upthe patriarchy and all that stuff, we
started talking about that and I realized,oh, I started feeling uncomfortable
and I think if I'm a little bit moreconscientious of, you know, setting these

(39:29):
boundaries and stuff and like creatingthat brave space again, like we could
reestablish it for that conversation sothat both of us feel okay to share and to
explore together without the other one.
Kind of like reacting and getting upset.
I don't know.
Have you like applied this to yourpersonal relationships and friendships?

(39:51):
I mean, I think I like to go.
I'd like to go into it, interaction,giving people the benefit of the
doubt and the caveat, obviouslybeing like, this doesn't pertain
to like human rights things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let'ssay that now, please.
Yeah, I mean, it's littered all overmy content, which is that I don't

(40:11):
debate anything to do with that.
People have the intrinsic, like, rightto exist and be themselves, so I'm
not here to debate that kind of thing.
But like, in terms of like, minoryou know, not disagreements,
but like different ways of doingthings or different approaches
or different perspectives thatpertain to like content let's say.
I like to be clear about like what I'mtrying to get out of the interaction and

(40:34):
like the out or the actual conversation tosay, you know, I'm not here to debate you.
This is kind of where I'm coming from.
Feel free to share whereyou're coming from.
And, like, I try not to put, like,a big expectation that, again, I
think this is all around this, like,narrative that, like, everything
should have a resolution that's, like,perfectly tied up in the bow, but,
like, your life is not a seas theseason finale of, like, a sitcom, right?

(40:57):
So, I think-
Oh my god.
Wait, can you just say that one more time?
Because I love that.
Your life and your conversations and,like, how you interact with people is
not the season finale of any sitcom.
You don't need to, like Leave your lifeon a cliffhanger, conversely, but like,
there's no pressure to be renewed.
Like, you just have to go intointeractions, trying to hear people
out and like, be fair, I guess.

(41:20):
I don't know.
I'm trying not to sound like a diplomatbecause like, but conflict isn't
always like aggressive or like yellingat folks or like anything like that.
Like sometimes a brave face is justcoming to the table with someone
being able to share like theirperspective on like an interaction.
It's not always like.
Aggressive or negative or, youknow, so I think that's kind of

(41:41):
how I bring that confrontation.
Yeah, like I that's how I approach itand I'm not saying there's like a right
way to do this or right ways to dothis, but that's kind of my perspective.
And then with family family ischallenging, especially if you're
an early entrepreneur and youcome from like immigrant family.

(42:01):
There are sort of two narratives, whichis that if you're an entrepreneur, you
somehow have more money than you do.
And then conversely, people are almostlike waiting with bated breath to
like, find out if you're going to flop.
And I'm not saying this from like a, yourfamily doesn't want you to succeed, but
I think there's a dynamic, especially forlike us, where It's so different from,

(42:26):
like, what they envisioned us doing,maybe, and it's hard for them to, like,
communicate this with their friends ortheir peers or whatever, so, like, we've
had to have conversations as a family tobe, like, my business is not up for, like,
gossip, debate, speculation, like, thisis a real thing that we're doing, and if
we're not necessarily, like, comfortablebeing openly supportive, um, which is a

(42:51):
challenge, a lot of a space, then I'm notcomfortable having those conversations.
It's not to say that like my businessis not off limits, but like it
is more generative to maybe leavethat discussion off the table.
And I think that is something that likea lot of solopreneurs and businesses
of color and like other marginalizedfolks and people at different
intersections are challenged by.

(43:13):
So I think sometimes kind of furtheringthat braver space is like creating
policies that protect everybody, evenif it doesn't necessarily make you
popular, because I know that peopletook great offense when I was like,
it hurts my feelings when, like,despite your best intentions, you
come off as come across as glib aboutsomething that's really important to me.

(43:37):
And I guess like, close out this tirade-
I love it.
I'm like, I'm like resonating.
Not every conversation is likeparticularly take that offline.
I'm sorry to say, or, you know, workit out in a journal, in a journal
entry in a blog post in like.
Not everything needs to bedigestible in a small bit of text.

(43:59):
I would say that, like, we all have avery unique experience and we all have
different ways of relating to eachother, and I think maybe the being online
of it all, particularly in the threeyears, it's like making that worse.
Um, so maybe, you know, I know a lot ofmy clients and other people in, like, arts
communities do have a policy where, like,if it's accessible to folks, um, conflict

(44:21):
does arise and it makes sense takingstuff offline is a way that they try to
resolve and whatever that resolution lookslike resolution could be everybody both
parties block each other and move on.
But yeah, I think that's anotherway that kind of navigating these
spaces of belonging can happen.
Ideally, that's a last resort.

(44:43):
I know that's kind of something thatthe principle and transformative justice
is to like, make that kind of severingof ties the last possible resort.
Which is kind of how I like to moveas well, because I'm, you know, really
admire the work of Adrienne Marie Brown.
But yeah, that's kind of how Iembody these practices or strive
to embody these practices.
I haven't run anything in agroup in some times, but I did

(45:05):
have a safer spaces policy.
And I, I have had to create some rulesaround, like, DMs and the like, as well,
because, like, people were salty with meover the clubhouse of it all, and, like,
being aggressive, but in general, I try tohear people out and be fair in that way.
Yeah, I, I feel likeeverything that you shared.

(45:28):
I'm like, yes, I get it.
Oh my gosh.
Totally relate.
And then also when you were sharingall of this, like this feeling kind
of like bubbled up in my chest.
I think it's like the tension ofholding something that is uncomfortable
instead of what I think normally.

(45:49):
And I think what's happened,especially in the age of social media.
Is we tend to either, I guess there aremultiple ways that people approaches one,
they let go of that uncomfortableness andthey kind of just like move on with their
lives and like, don't say it, whatever.
Um, and they totallylike hide under the rug.
Then there is like that.

(46:10):
If you're feeling that tension andholding that uncomfortableness, you,
I'm not saying you all in general, butwhat I've seen is that people will:
one, hide it under the rug, then theyeither turn into an attack, so then they
take it public, and then they go intolike this whole spiel and give like a
whole explanation and blah, blah, blah.
And then three, they almost like try tojustify, so they, similar to the second

(46:34):
one where I was like, okay, they turninto attack, but like when I see people
justifying, it's almost like, okay, here'san explanation of like this whole thing so
that I can like feel better about myself.
So, And get like sympathy points insteadof maybe what you were saying, like,
okay, I'm going to take this conversationoffline because it is uncomfortable.

(46:56):
There is tension and I'm going toapproach it in a space of belonging
where or like a brave space where wecan kind of have like this really candid
conversation of just trying to understandwhere the other person is coming from.
So.
Yeah, I don't know where I was going withthat, but honestly what you were sharing,
I was like, Ooh, I feel like I've hadthis before and I would feel like I've

(47:18):
messaged you to be like, um, but thistension and this uncomfortable feeling and
kind of just holding it instead of lettingit go or transforming it into something
that doesn't need to live online.
Yeah, it's interesting because BearHébert, he Bear, I can't remember if
they have an accent on the e, they justposted a really incredible reel basically

(47:44):
saying like, don't, and I'm deeplyparaphrasing, but we will cite this sort.
Essentially what I got from itis, you know, stop filtering,
stop trying to access yourattachment needs to social media.
Hmm.
And I wish I had got that message like.
A while ago, which is a common comment.

(48:06):
I'm sure that they experience and Ithink I saw that they could share that.
I think the Internet made peoplefeel seen and it was at one point
a place of belonging, especially ifyou have like quote unquote, like
niche interest or niche hobbies.
But I think.
Again, I find myself annoyed with myselfbecause it's so obnoxious to be nostalgic

(48:28):
about something that barely existed inactuality, which is the old internet.
Like, that's my perception.
That's like one person's experience.
So I hesitate to be like,I miss the old internet.
It was so great because that's howpeople- rationalize, you know, wanting
to go back to the past like thiswhole notion of the past is so fake,

(48:49):
but conversely, I do believe and saidwith my full chest, but like, when
it became when it was a place where,like, you could put something out there
and, like, it could just be out there.
Like, it felt good and affirmingand, but now I'm realizing based
on like what Bear are shared.

(49:09):
It's like, I think we would probablyhave to go back and unpack, you
know, what's compelling us to shareand what we're ultimately trying to
like, receive as a result of sharing.
And I think.
That's kind of the mode that I'm in,certainly from a personal perspective,
but as a business as well, where I'mlike, okay, which is something I had to

(49:29):
do because I was getting super frustratedwith like two, two views on reels.
And I constantly have to reelmyself back in to say, well, you
know, you're a smaller account.
We've always struggled with engagement.
Could it be generative to like, giveyourself permission to just put something
out there to keep up with for thesole purpose of keeping up with your

(49:51):
content marketing goals and to improveat your video editing and whatever,
like, I'm really trying to removemyself from like the self worth part of
being a business owner on social mediabecause I just maybe that's my thing.
I don't think we're talking about is.
I think we assign so much valueto, like, being perceived as

(50:15):
doing well on social media when,like, I can't speak for everybody,
but, like, I'm a referral queen.
I get my business frompeople referring me.
I get my business from people referringme because they love my content.
And like, not my socialmedia content, but my blog.
So, I think if we could get to aplace where we all take that away

(50:35):
and sit with ourselves to be like,I'm posting, why am I posting?
What am I expecting as a result?
And is that result fair to me fair,knowing everything you're up against in
terms of like, we're very distracted.
We have a lot kind of that we can accessaccess to a lot of like entertainment,

(51:00):
you know, a lot of other solopreneurs.
Like, is it fair to be like, oh, wow.
A marker of my work if my realonly only two people saw it.
And I also think of like, I can'tremember which practitioner someone said
that don't make comments about audiencemembers that you wouldn't make your face.
No one would go into a room and be on astage and say there's only 12 people here.

(51:24):
Can you imagine?
Oh, oh my gosh.
Yes, that.
Yeah, that really putsthings into perspective.
Right?
And so what she was saying is whenyou go on social and you say only five
people liked it, it tells those fivepeople that their like is less than.
Hmm.

(51:44):
So you, again, being conscientious,you have to, like, you
don't have to do anything.
I'm not that prescriptive.
But one of the things I'm tryingto do is, you know, don't just
talk about it, be about it.
I would never go into a roomif three people were in the
room who showed up to my talk.
Amazing.
They took the, they thought itwas interesting enough to show up.
I would never get on stage and say,Oh, there's only 30 people here.

(52:09):
Like imagine being personsone, two, and three.
Yeah.
I think I've just part of this and partof being conscientious and being mindful
about storytelling is also the stories wetell ourselves, you know, like I'm guilty
of creating a narrative of not enoughnessthat's like trickling down to my audience.
And then conversely, which again, I don'tcall it others, I'm calling out myself.

(52:31):
Conversely, to turn around andthen be surprised that more people
aren't engaging is interesting.
It's an interesting tactic to to putit's to say, oh, well, it's only 12
and then surprised that those 12 peopledon't come back or whatever that is.
So I've just been really working on being.
honest about what I'm trying to dowhen I post something, but I thought

(52:52):
Bear's post was like really nailed it.
I wish I'd seen that six monthsago because I'm trying to, I don't
know if it's like a validationthing or like a what's going on.
I'm still unpacking that, butI think it's a two way street.
It's what we're telling our clients.
And we're telling our audience, but alsowhat we're telling ourselves, because

(53:13):
sometimes that means unfollowing theexperts and stuff and kind of creating
your own story and your own narrative.
You know, I think that's mybiggest takeaway going into a
fourth year business is like, noteverybody's story is your story.
Yep.
Not everybody's narrativeis yours to take on.
Like, what are you, whatstory are you telling?
It's like Barbara Walter makes yourrecipe was interviewing you and

(53:36):
she's asking you about your life.
Are you taking on someone else's storyor are you telling your own story?
I think that's also part of theconscientious storytelling bucket.
I love that.
I mean, at the end of theinterview, I was going to be
like, what's a journaling prompt?
I would say that's number one.
So y'all, if you are listening, notethat down, but I will ask Na'ilah again.
At the end of this, what ajournaling prompter exploratory

(53:58):
question that she has for people.
Um, I do want to jump into, Iknow we were talking all about
conscientious storytelling andcreating spaces of belonging.
Uh, we're going to switch gears a littlebit and get into petty energy opinions.
I'm excited.
I see you clapping over there.
I'm like, yeah, let's do it.
Um, so.

(54:20):
These are rapid fire questions.
They are mostly about pet peeves.
I have two and depending onyour answers, I may have more.
So for all the people who workin the online business industry,
what is one of your pet peevesof the online business industry?
Where to, where to start?
I guess I have to talkabout, like, the energy.

(54:43):
Um, people aren't keeping upthe same energy in my case.
They weren't keeping upthe same energy as 2020.
Oh, uh, yes.
When Threads launched, everyonewas like, We need your writing.
You're a writer.
Be on Threads.
And I just remember being like, I havea whole essay series with my writing.

(55:04):
It's not great, but like, it'swhat, 200 characters over there?
Like, I don't, I'm never going to usethat space for like, really digging
deep into topics because I don't haveenough space to give context, which is
something that I had talked about a lot.
That's why I literallystarted the essay series.
So yeah, for me, it createsthis energy that people have

(55:26):
for like, emerging platforms.
Like, People had a lotof energy for Streg.
People had a lot of energy for Clubhouse.
Conversely, not supporting Spill, aBlack owned, um, social media platform,
um, from two ex Twitter people.
So, that's interesting.
So, yeah, people just, like, notmatching their 2020 energy is, like,

(55:46):
my biggest, like, pet peeve right now.
It's, like, and Monique Melton talks waymore about this and, like arguably has
more authority to talk about this, butin my like pocket of an experience, just
like people just not having the sameenergy, like it was all support Black
women and now it's like, oh, well, wejust want to access your thread hot takes

(56:07):
for zero dollars is which is interesting,but yeah, people just not having the
same energy as 2020 is my biggest one.
And then the second one, um,
Oh, there's more.
Okay.
Okay.
The second one is just like, nothaving transcripts for your podcast.
I, it's, I can't take it.
And like, the, and then the attitudethat I have gotten, people are like, mad.

(56:28):
And like, I try to be like, really gentlewith it, with my request, to say, hey,
like because again, I have like somefolks who need, I know the one thing that
I really treasure about having a quote,small audience, which to me, they are
everything they are, they are, it's 10,000 people in my heart is I know who reads
my content because they DM me about it.
One of the things I loved isthat I have to get on truthfully.

(56:50):
It's like, I have audio blogs forpeople who have self identify as
low vision and they really like,love that I have that content.
People also messaged me saying, Oh,thanks for always having a transcript.
Cause I wouldn't, I couldn'totherwise access it.
Access it.
So, my biggest pet peeve is ifpeople invite me on and I say,
hey, look, I need a transcript.
It's one of my boundarieson my speaker page.
Try Tactique.

(57:10):
It's a free, um, it's a free tool becauseI know that maybe not everybody's in
the position to like, subscribe tolike, a descript or like any other
paid tool or an otter and the attitudeI get often is like, well, you know,
then I'd have to like, either updatemy whole library or like, then I
have to do all this extra work.

(57:31):
And, yeah, like, I, I don't understand it.
It is 2023, like, there's lots of greateducators, like Aaron Perkins is great.
Like, Katie from Access Reimaginedis great, like there's lots of great
people doing lots of great affordableeducation, but yeah, that's my pet peeve.
I can't, I can't take it.
And I was previously struggling withlike, well, I think the struggle,

(57:55):
particularly if you are a I Blackwomen really in any space, particularly
on my business, it's like thestruggle, the push and pull between
being palatable and all this stuff.
I've really tried to be like graciousabout it and like fair about it
and I'm just over being fair.
If you don't have atranscript, don't even email.
Like I'm just not going to respond at thispoint because I just don't want to have to

(58:16):
like continue to have things like negativeinteractions where people are coming at
me because they're not providing access.
Yeah.
Love it.
Love these pet peeves.
Take away from that is y'allmatch, match that energy.
Really?
Really?
There's nothing else to say?
I thought we cared about, I thoughtwe cared about inclusion and
belonging in the 2020 of it all.
We suddenly don't care, I guess?

(58:37):
I don't know.
Apparently not, because in the UnitedStates right now, um, any program in
corporate Dassault is, uh, with thewords DEI or race are getting defunded.
Yay!
Lovely times.
We, we could go a lot more intothis, but I have more questions
for Petty Energy Opinions.
What is another pet peeve that youhave for living and working abroad?

(59:00):
Because you live in Edinburgh?
Is that how you say it?
Um, I don't live in Edinburgh anymore.
I did.
Yeah.
Um, I feel like it's justlike, it's so behind.
And people get upset when I say, youknow, it's, it's challenging to work
with folks here because people have,like, expectations of what things cost

(59:24):
from, like, 50 years ago, like, sorry,like, 5 years ago, like, notwithstanding
the cost of living crisis, like I justhad so many like interactions where
people's- the budgets that I havebeen given for the work that I that
is proposed would horrify you, but,you know, I try to keep it classy.
I think it's just like a knowledge gap.

(59:46):
I think a lot of people don't say no,which is something that I talk a lot
about in, like, one of my most, like,um, you popular blog post, which is
like, why don't work for exposure?
I think it's still a placewhere people are not saying no.
And I am not afraid to say no.
Granted, it isn't always cute.
I told someone here, no.
And he like pulled the bait and splits up.

(01:00:08):
Like, well, I don't wantto work with you anyway.
And like said, like all this, like, okay.
That's some petty energy.
That's petty energy, whichhe was probably blocked.
But yeah, I think, like, I don'tknow about living anywhere else.
Um, I don't think the UK hasa digital nomad visa yet.
So maybe that, again, it couldjust be not a knowledge gap.
I don't want to assumethat it's malicious.

(01:00:29):
I genuinely think people areunaware, but like, Scotland is
moving towards, like, fair work.
And, like, there are certain, like,published rates that have to be
abided by as part of fair work.
So, like, this could change.
It's probably going to take at least four,three to four years to change, but that's
kind of my pet peeve there is that like,you're dealing with a country that's, you

(01:00:52):
know, treating freelancers as like, it'sattitudes from like 10 years ago of just
like oh, like I can not pay you on time.
I can do like lots of exposureapps, like that sort of thing.
And I think, I think itwill change, but that's my.
That's my experience here and also justlike that everything every event is

(01:01:13):
in England or like every event is inthe US, like in terms of marketing and
networking events and stuff like that.
It would be nice if like more stuffwas like Scotland based, but the
sort of freelancer world is likemore like graphic and text based.
So I see kind of why maybethat hasn't happened yet.
Again, it just feels likeliving in a time capsule.

(01:01:34):
It feels very 2011 over here in terms of-
you know, when I first movedto Spain, I kind of thought the
same thing because then I startedworking and like doing marketing
and like business ownership here.
And I was like, Oh.
We're like 10 years behind, whichis not to say like, there's like a
official timeline to follow or anythinglike that, but it was like, why
are we acting like what, especiallywhat you said about like budgeting

(01:01:57):
and prices and all of that stuff?
Um, and then just like new ways to includeand it evolve basically with how you
interact with like audiences and clients.
I noticed that it's very antiquatedwhere it's kind of just like, Oh
yeah, it's like a transaction.
I'm like, well, it's not anymore.
And it can't be anymore because peopleare looking for something different

(01:02:20):
with businesses and whether you'rea product based business, service
based business, creator, whatever.
They're not looking just for atransaction anymore, unless like you
go to a specific website, I guess, likeFiverr or Upwork or something like that.
They're kind of just looking forthat, but that's like other senses.
I don't know.
Okay.
So last pet peeve energyopinion question, petty energy.

(01:02:41):
I think I'm getting confused withmy own title for this section.
What is a pet peeve that Youhave just like one of your
biggest, biggest pet peeves.
This is like, in general, itcould be like relationships.
It could be what we talked abouttoday with conscientious storytelling.
It could be business.
It could be, I don't know.
Other things.

(01:03:02):
Do you have one?
Just like a general one?
I have one general one.
I have one that I always say.
I mean, I think I posted it as amood board, but I think I'm always
like, genuinely fascinated withlike, the way people do not like,
cite or credit Black women or like,just like, misrepresent their work

(01:03:29):
or like, the point of their work.
I just, that's like a, that'sjust like a general ick.
It's it tapering off because, you know,I guess we're supposed to believe the
2020 of it all, which a trend we're kindof like fading into the background in
terms of like being taken, which that'slike a whole other podcast, like that

(01:03:52):
we're moving, being a thing, being ahigh that we're just like, we're evolving
back to the 2000s, like the early 2000s.
So, yeah, I think, like, that'sultimately my, like, it, because
I'll see stuff, like, quoted that I,like, know is bell hooks, and I'm,
like, where's the citation base?
Like, um, what if it was Brene Brown.
They attribute it to them.
That is also another conversation.

(01:04:13):
Um, nothing against
Brene Brown.
But I would just say this.
Yeah, you should cite all of your sources.
But again, it's going back to,like, keep the same energy.
Like, I'm happy.
You're so exciting.
If she said it, fight her, but.
You know, it's just really interesting.
Um, a peer of mine, Ojo Agi um, who's aartist and like the best human, I will

(01:04:38):
always cite their article about whyyou should cite Black women, but yeah,
keep that energy, keep that energy.
Like, I don't know what dissipated inthe last, like, definitely three years,
but the last six months where we're justlike, doing this, but that's my ultimate.
I love it.
Um, I don't love it, but thank you forsharing because I feel like most people
probably don't even realize these things.
And I feel like this isa very valid pet peeve.

(01:04:59):
It's not like a pet peevewhere, you know, it's just like
something small and annoying.
This is like, literally, canyou just acknowledge these
things and at least give.
Like the space for it, whereas likesome people might just be like,
Oh, yeah, my pet peeve is like whenpeople replace everything with emojis.
Yeah, okay, that's like an annoying thing.

(01:05:20):
It's very valid, but yoursI don't think is like.
A very difficult to ask.
Yeah, I mean, that's like, again,another story for another time, but
that's just like, I think is what'spetty about it is like, I just meet
those people then, like, immediately.
That's like where the petty comes in,where I'm like, if you're not, if you're

(01:05:41):
someone who's not going to fight yoursources, then like, Insofar as you, like,
I get, like, I literally have, like, amemory lapse to be like, who said that?
I probably forgot to save it, but if Iremember that, I'll ask Cassandra to,
like, add the citation, but if there'speople I'm, like, intentionally, like, I
really love their work, and I really wantthem to, like, to put respect on their
name, like, I had saw Bear's thing, soI'm like, I really want to bring that up.

(01:06:03):
I really have to make surethat I, you know, cite them.
It was posted more recently, so I canremember, but, like, I think I saw
that other one, like, two years ago.
I guess that, like, there's a human errorpart of this, but, like, Because to pick
and choose who you do it with is, like,very interesting to observe and witness.
We're both eyeing you over here.
You can't see us, but we're making faces.
Um, okay.

(01:06:24):
So last question before we wrap up thisinterview, uh, this is a question that I
love and, um, ending all interviews withis what is a nuanced conversation that you
don't think that we are having enough of?
I mean, I don't know that it's thatit's, we're not having enough of it, but
I think it's just in specific circlesand groups, like, we're not having

(01:06:47):
a wider conversation of, like, whathappened to all of those, like, when,
like, the 2020 of it all, like, howwe move forward and online business, a
lot of folks, like, are being kind of.
It's kind of just like going back to theold way that it was, you know, I think

(01:07:08):
those conversations are having happeningand co wrote probably my most cited
think piece about like the challenges ofDEI and cultural competency and Connie
to rightfully predicted that like theframeworks are are what's causing us

(01:07:29):
to, like, go to keep repeating theseconversations, so, like, I guess the TLDR
is, like, we haven't really unpacked,like, what we did or didn't learn from
this, and I wish we kind of talked about,like, how it's affecting, I mean, BIPOC,
like, solopreneurs in, like, greaternumbers, but, like, you had, not me so

(01:07:49):
much, but other practitioners had a delugeof work that has now, like, evaporated,
and we're just not talking about, like,we're not talking about it unless you are
in those communities or unless you're,like, seeking out that information.
And like, I would love for us as anindustry to be more accountable and to
talk about that because like, if we weresetting up this like false, I don't know,

(01:08:14):
like circular economy, then like, we alsohave to then talk about like, when it no
longer serves people, and those numbersdropped off, it's still people who don't
have businesses, like some people pivoted,I find myself in a position of pivoting.
But, you know, some people, thisis their, like, lived works, this
is their life works, like, theyshouldn't necessarily have to pivot.

(01:08:35):
So, yeah, I think that's a conversationthat I would love to see more nuance
around, or just, like, for us toeven have a conversation at all.
Because if you were, like, if you were oneof those people who posted one of those
pledges then I want to know, when's thelast time you, a practitioner of color, if
you were in the financial position to doso, when's the last time you like shared

(01:08:55):
someone's content or referred someone?
I think the nuance is sort of likeeveryone's, you know, the narrative
is like everyone's struggling, but.
I think there's definitely layers tothis, and I think, I can't speak for
everyone, but like, I feel like I'mpersonally, like, recovering from that
whole, the 2020 of it all being positionedas a trend, I guess, is a conversation

(01:09:16):
I want more nuance about, and also justlike to have a conversation at all.
Yeah.
Hmmmm.
Something to definitely think about.
Um, I feel like I'll bemessaging you about this after
our conversation on WhatsApp.
So, to end the Interview conversation.

(01:09:37):
I always love ending withjournaling prompts or
exploratory questions for people.
Do you have a journaling promptaside from all of the other amazing
ones that you shared sprinkledthroughout this conversation?
Do you have a journaling promptexploratory question or exercise
for the people listening to explore?
Either any of the pet peeves, pettyenergy stuff that we just talked about,

(01:09:58):
spaces of belonging through wordsor language, or even conscientious
story, conscientious storytelling.
This one's maybe a bit out ofleft field, but I feel like it's
so grounding in terms of our likestory type storytelling practice.
I always ask people to think about theirfavorite story or the first story they
heard that they really, really liked.
So like for example, mymom's an oral storyteller.

(01:10:20):
We love a book, but like, someof my favorite stories are the
ones that she told me abouther neighborhood in Barbados.
So, what is your favorite story and why?
Hmm.
I love that.
I will use that as a journaling promptfor, um, tomorrow's journaling session.
I'm getting, like, all of thesereally great journaling prompts from

(01:10:41):
these interviews and I'm like, yay!
I just journal about, like, my feelings,but, like, these are even more fun.
So, thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, I think,
I think the answer might surprise people,but it's my favorite question to ask
because it tells, uh, it gives us a lotof information about the stories we tell.
Hmm.

(01:11:01):
Okay.
I'll journal it and I'll get back to you.
It's a comfy thing.
I know.
Get back to me.
I want to know.
I'm like, I was just thinking when youwere saying that too, and I was like,
what is a favorite story that I have?
And the first thing I thoughtabout were like different
movies that I really enjoyed.
And, you know, funnily enough,the most memorable ones are not.
Western made movies, they are moviesthat were written, directed and filmed

(01:11:26):
in other parts of the world that justhave like a totally different type of
story that like sticks with me and I'vejust held on to it anyways, that'll
be for my journaling exploration.
Y'all don't need to have me journallive on this podcast with you.
Um, so thank you, Nailah.
Thank you so much for being here.
I have.
Really enjoyed this conversation.

(01:11:47):
I feel like we chat all the time throughwhat's up literally almost every day, um,
but I don't think we've had the chanceto like just sit and talk about this and
like me getting the chance to learn moreabout you and like your whole thought
process and like all of this stuff.
So this has been lovelyto hear all of this.
Um, is there anything that you areworking on that you're excited about in

(01:12:08):
the upcoming months, feel free to shareabout it here for other people to know.
Um, so I just launched theclient storytelling, client story
copywriting, um, one to one service.
So if you are someone who needssupport showcasing your expertise,
definitely check that out.
Um, there might be a kind of strategyversion of that, so stay tuned.

(01:12:31):
I might do NaNoWriMo again.
It feels like glutton forpunishment a little bit.
But yeah, um, I am tryingto work on a longer work.
So yeah, thank you for that.
Oh, I'm excited.
I think we talked about NaNoWriMo,and potentially being accountability.
And then I was like, I don't know,I get scared thinking about it.
Anyways, um, we'll talkabout that in WhatsApp later.

(01:12:53):
Can you share where everybody canreach you where they can find you?
Um, so you can find me on linked inat the content, which is, uh, I am
on Instagram as, uh, NailahZking,that'll be in the show notes, I'm sure.
Um, you can also subscribe to mynewsletter, uh, it's monthly, I,

(01:13:17):
it's a poor best practice, but Ithink I post, I do a sales email like
twice a year, so it's mostly justme coming into your newsletter, or
in your inbox as a newsletter like.
Once a month, but you can accessthat through the website at w dot
the content, which is awesome.
And all of those links will bein the show notes as well as.
I think all of the referencesand people that we talked about.

(01:13:40):
So if you all wanted to explore any ofthe people or resources that, um, Nailah
mentioned in this episode, then I willalso include them in the show notes.
Well, y'all thank you Nailahso much for this conversation.
Thanks you all.
For whoever's tuning in.
Um, if you have questions aboutthis, you can send me a, what is it?

(01:14:00):
A DM, um, on Instagram @CassandraTLe.
And we will see you in the next episode.
Stay fierce, fam.
If you're hearing this message, that meansyou made it to the end of the episode.
Yay.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this conversation and hadan idea on future topics you'd like to see
covered on the podcast, send me a messageon Instagram @CassandraTLe with your idea.

(01:14:25):
If we decide to explore the topic,we'll also give you a shout out.
Want to hang out with me inother areas of the internet?
Subscribe to The doing Good newsletterto receive exclusive access to personal
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Find the link in the show notes.
And don't forget tosubscribe if you haven't.
Thank you and see you in the next episode.
Stay Gears, fam!

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