Shiva Roofeh: Learning from Ancestry to be a Better Leader

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You know, a person with a penis can'tget it up and the other person's
like impotent and like, yeah, yeah.
I'm feeling that.
But, but with my soul, right?
And the not feeling eventually overtime, that's what that is for me.
Impotence of the soul.
Welcome back to the I'm lost, so what?
Podcast!
As usual, this is your host, Cassandra Leand I am super excited for y'all to listen

(00:23):
to the episode that we've got today.
I am bringing on a long time client ofThe Quirky Pineapple Studio turn a friend.
Her name is Shiva Roofeh,and Shiva is a curious rebel.
Community Builder, Secret Punk, PerpetualSmiler, Partner, Friend, Culture
Creator, and Learning Design Specialist.
Shiva works with Fortune 500companies as an organizational justice

(00:45):
practitioner helping leaders be lessasshole like by understanding their
systemic power so they misuse it less.
Her work focuses on power sharingand breaking down harmful cultures
in order to create healthier ones.
Shiva is also the co parent ofthe Ancestral Wisdoms Anthology,
a collection of ancestralstories, lessons, and memories.
for and by the global majority.

(01:06):
I'm super excited about thisconversation because we're diving
into what is ancestry, wisdoms ingeneral, and ancestral wisdoms, and
then we are breaking down what isactually culture and leadership.
I love all of the conversations that Ihave with Shiva, so I'm really, really
excited to share this one with you all.
Let's dive into it.
Hello, hello, everyone.

(01:27):
I'm Cassandra Le, and you'relistening to I'm Lost, So What?
The podcast exploring betweenbelonging and carving your own path.
For all the peeps out there who kindof know what you're doing, but still
question, what the fuck is going on?
Yeah, I'm with you.
Hello, Shiva.
Hello.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Uh, I feel like this conversation couldgo lots of ways, mainly because we've had

(01:51):
conversations that have gone lots of ways.
Everywhere.
Yeah, but they're alwaysgreat conversations.
And I always feel like they'resuper I don't know, deep and
heartfelt, uh, a little nutty.
I imagine, I'm imagining us sitting,um, in Lisbon when we ordered
like the 12 churros at midnight.

(02:13):
And we just were talking about likelife and systems of oppression, eating
churros and dipping them in caramels.
Yep.
Yep.
Good times.
Mixing all the things.
Oh yeah.
So I'm super excited to have you here.
Let's just dive into it.
Are you ready?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I always like to start offeach episode asking every guest.

(02:35):
What does being lost mean to you?
And can you describe thefeeling of what loss is?
It's kind of two in one like.
The answer for both is one thing for me.
It's like free falling.
And I remember when I waslike 20 years old, a friend of
mine got really angry at me.
She was working and she hated her job.

(02:55):
And I'm like, just quit the fucking job.
Just quit and then figure it out.
And she flipped out on me andshe's like, no, I can't do that.
Like, some people need stability.
You just free fall.
Like, you just jump out the fucking planeand you fall and then you figure shit out.
And that's really stayed with me.
I mean, it does feel like falling andwithout a parachute and you don't know

(03:16):
where the hell you're going to land,where you're going, you can't fly.
Right.
And it's terrifying, but it's alsoreally liberating, like being lost.
I know that we have this, I don't knowif it's a taboo, but, there's all these
programs about like, find yourselfand discover yourself and discover

(03:38):
who you really are and all that stuff.
And I'm like, but what'swrong with being lost?
I kind of like it.
It means that there's no set way.
There's no path.
I get to wander and discover things thatI wouldn't have otherwise discovered.
And maybe it takes longer, short,but I get to see a lot more than.
I would have otherwise.
Yeah, I do feel like just well, I'm prettysure the self help personal development.

(04:01):
I mean, I'm all about personaldevelopment and self help sure, but I
do feel like that has picked up since Ithink the start of COVID and then we're
still in that like bubble and space.
So when you were saying, Oh,yeah, all these courses that are
like, find out who you reallyare, what is your purpose in life?
And actually, the season finale ofseason one got into what purposes and

(04:27):
just like, Does purpose even exist?
Who knows?
Exactly.
I still don't know whatthe hell my purpose is.
Like I, I've done all the businesscourses, like find your purpose,
know what your purpose is.
So you can communicate to your clients.
I'm like, I don't fuck my purposes.
It changes every five years.
Do I need to have one?
Yeah.
I do feel like it does change.
And actually somethingthat my aunt shared.

(04:48):
In that season finale was thatin different stages of her life,
her purpose shifted becauseof the roles that she played.
So when she was like 20,her purpose was X, Y, Z.
And then when she got married,her purpose shifted a little bit.
Now she has, well, my twocousins, um, her two kids.
Uh, and so her role shifted to be moremother caregiver and then it changed.

(05:12):
And now her kids are teenagers.
And Her purpose changed again, becausenow it's not really to take care of
the kids because the kids are out.
So, I do think it, it does change.
But, um, something that you saidwas the free falling feeling.
And, yes, it's super liberating.
And then I can also imagine rightbefore you free fall that, like,

(05:35):
you know, the panic kicks in.
So, when you're free falling,it's probably like, oh my gosh,
super liberating, best feelingever, why didn't I do this sooner?
But can you describe what that feelingis, at least for you in your body or like
in your thought process right before youchoose to, whether it's jump or somebody

(05:55):
pushes you, I don't know, but what doesthat actually look, feel like in your body
and your thought process and like life?
So I'm also realizing when I, when itlooks like I'm free falling, when it
looks like I've just jumped, right?
What people don't realize is thatthere was years of shit brewing

(06:17):
in my head and the back of mymind, like stuff that I wanted to
do or experience that I just did.
I was too afraid to say out loud or that,like, thinking when I was 21 or yeah,
when I was 21, I decided to just dropeverything and move to Europe without
a visa, without money, without a job,without knowing the language, nothing.
Right?
Everyone thought I was fucking nuts.

(06:37):
And they're like, what, whatis, what the hell are you doing?
But what people didn't realize wasthat since I was 4 years old, I knew
I did not want to live in the UnitedStates, you know, like, I just knew it.
And so it looked like this freefall, but there was there was already
so much going on in my head for solong that it wasn't as scary in the
moment than what it looked like.

(07:00):
At the same, it doesn't meanthe fear wasn't there, right?
Like heart pounding, constantlythinking, am I making the wrong decision?
Am I making the wrong decision?
And also sometimes life just likeshit just happens and you have
no choice but to jump, right?
Like I got fired.
That was, that was not an intentionalfreefall that was just being

(07:22):
shoved out the fucking plane.
And usually it's like a good six monthsof just this constant low level anxiety.
Yeah, I get that.
I understand.
I know I'm not selling it very wellthere, but then like once you're there.
You know, then you're like, Oh, soit's like six months of that terror

(07:42):
of, of like, just being on the brink,even after you've taken the leap.
And then after the six months,that freedom of like, okay, I can
breathe now, then it comes in.
But it is like, uh, Like overthinking,waking up, already having
conversations in my head, uh, thesweaty palms for like no reason.

(08:03):
Uh, my partner justdoesn't understand this.
He looks at me and he's like, you'rehaving another anxiety attack.
Why?
Because life is changing.
I made a decision, but life is changing.
So yeah, it's a, it'sa very visceral thing.
And then the mind tries to override thatwith lots of logic, but you can't logic
your way out of massive decisions, right?

(08:23):
Like you can't logic yourway out of massive risks.
It's more like just my body'stelling me this is not the way.
And I think that also something I'mrealizing recently is I don't want to
overuse this, but it's almost like a, it'slike my ancestors come into me and saying,
this is not the way this is not for you.
Yeah.

(08:45):
And I've always known it.
But society is always telling me to gothis way and I'm like, no, I want to
go this way is where I want to go, butthere's so few people on this path.
But there's just like this littlehard, deep core of knowing of
how fucking scary this shit is.
This is the way.
So it's a, it's a combination ofabsolute terror and deep, deep faith.

(09:09):
I love that.
And I love that it's both.
And because I have felt the same thingwhere before that free fall, but you
mentioned like it's years, months, yearsof brewing ideas, thinking about it.
And a lot of the times, of course,on social media, people see the jump.
People see like the decision to,but nobody really sees like, Oh,

(09:35):
I've been thinking about this.
And maybe I haven't said it publicly.
Maybe I only said it tolike my inner network.
Maybe I've only said it to my journal.
Maybe I've only said it tomy therapist that I've been
wanting to make this change.
And you all are just experiencingthe external choice that I have.
Actually done it, but it took timeto get here and I love to you

(09:56):
brought in your ancestors becauseI've got questions about ancestry.
So let's just jump into that.
I also agree that my ancestors nowthat I have become more attuned
to, I think, their communication.
I recognize that they're tryingto be like, no, Cassandra,
um, just listen to us.

(10:17):
Go the other way.
Um, but okay.
So I think the word ancestry haspopped up a lot in these past years,
or at least it's confirmation bias.
So I'm like consuming more content.
But what does ancestry actually meanto you and how would you describe it?
Another tough one.

(10:38):
So something I realized recently,and it's not my own realization.
It came from someone in my network.
It, the difference betweenlineage and ancestry.
Ooh.
I used to think my ancestry wasjust my lineage, like the people who
birthed me and going upwards, butI realized ancestry is community.
It's the communities that I wasraised in, where my parents came

(10:59):
from, their communities and so on.
Um, going back to, you know,Iran is a tribal community.
So going back to the, the,the tribes that I belong to.
And it's a group of people who just tookcare of each other and who developed
their own wisdoms and ways of being anddeep, deep knowing and pass that down.

(11:19):
And so ancestry and wisdom is deeplyconnected to each other for me.
And also something separate from lineage.
So my ancestors are not just my immediatefamily or that, that family tree.
It is ancient Persia.
It is current Iran.
It is all the communities that influencedthat the communities that my families

(11:42):
grew up in and what they learned and tookon from those people and passed down.
Okay.
So then something.
Thank you, by the way, for sharing that.
And I love that you differentiatedlineage and ancestry.
I don't think I ever thoughtabout it like that either.
And I think people use ancestry andlineage interchangeably right now,

(12:05):
whereas I love this differentiation,but something that you also share a
lot about is becoming a better ancestoror a better leadership ancestor.
So can you share whatthat means and looks like?
Because now that you've differentiatedlineage and ancestry, I I'm not totally
sure like where- what makes me a betterancestor or a lineage passer downer?

(12:30):
I don't know what it's called.
So, for example, I don'tplan to have children, right?
So in that sense that the lineagepart is just not going to continue,
but my descendants are everybodyaround me, everybody whose lives I
touch and intersect with and whoselives touch me and intersect with me.
So becoming a better ancestor isthinking as many indigenous tribes

(12:51):
do many generations down the line.
Right.
People who haven't even been born yet.
So whatever I do right now, whateverI say, whatever I do, whatever I
tolerate, whatever I don't do, don'tsay, don't tolerate all these things.
All that is creating wavesand creating patterns.
It's allowing people to either see adifferent way of being and doing and

(13:13):
seeing or kind of perpetuating thestatus quo, perpetuating shit that
we don't want to be perpetuating.
So becoming a better ancestor for me isthinking of really, well, really taking
it in a look and deciding in what ways amI not doing okay for future generations,
for those who are around me in leadership.
It's really clear for me, for example,where whenever I've been in a leadership

(13:36):
position, I've had to really think about,okay, Shiva, however way I'm showing
up, the people around me, my directreports, uh, and also the people who are
parallel to me, are looking at me andthinking, this is what leadership is.
This is what a leader means.
Right.
They may not be consciously thinkingthat, but in the end, we're passing

(13:56):
down the ways of being and doing andseeing and they're picking it up.
Right.
So intentionally or unintentionally,it's going to happen no matter what.
So becoming a better ancestor isdoing that really intentionally.
And it's not going to be perfect.
It's going to be messy.
You're going to fuck up, but it'salways writing the wrongs that
you have speaking it out and justshowing that there's another way.

(14:18):
So even I don't have any reports.
I work for myself, but I have a lot ofdifferent clients and they're so used
to having consultants consultants, butI don't know what else to call myself.
They're so used to havingconsultants show up in a certain way.
And I'm intentionally showingup in a different way just to
be like, Hey, this is possible.
Yeah, we can change these patterns.

(14:40):
We can do things differently.
And that itself createsanother domino effect.
So it's just ripples.
That is ancestry.
You're creating thoseripples no matter what.
So how do we create better ones?
How do we create better ones?
So that in generations down theline, we have done something to
improve the lives of those who come.
We don't even know yet.
And that's fucking big and scary.

(15:01):
And a lot of people, even myown family don't get that.
Like, yeah.
My dad, bless him, but he's just like, whydo we care so much about the environment?
You're going to be dead anyway,when the world blows up.
Yes, seriously.
And he's like, you don't have children.
And I'm like, I don't, it doesn't matter.
How about the people who come after me?
How about my cousin's children?
How about all the peoplearound us who are going to.

(15:22):
You know, be moving forward in his life.
I don't want to leavea shit world for them.
So that that's becoming a betterancestor for me, thinking not of
yourself, but of the communitiesaround you and the world at large.
I love that.
And something that I think you've taughtme through, like, the years that we've
been working together is the breadthof ancestry, like the deepness of it.

(15:48):
And Thinking about I'm, I'mlistening to you and I'm feeling
like, Oh, this is really inspiring.
And, you know, this is like,okay, work for me to just be
more conscious and intentional.
And then also there's like theother side of my thoughts, which
is, well, that's fucking terrifying.
Like I have a lot more fucking powerthen I realized, so what if I don't

(16:12):
want, I mean, I like taking this on,but what if like somebody's listening
and they're like, what the fuck?
Like, I didn't ask forthis, which is fine.
Like, you know, we, we run into thingslike that, but what would you say to
somebody who is just like, realizing the,the impact that they can really have?
I have no idea what to say tothem, to be perfectly honest.

(16:36):
That's fair.
It's it's normal.
It's natural.
I still get terrified.
I'm so scared that I get frozen.
That's also me overthinking.
So I think maybe it's thatit's none of us asked for it.
Right?
For me, it's a duty and duty isa word that I've had a lot of
issues with in the past comingfrom a very collectivist society.
We- you were raised with duty it is likefoundational to how you show up and it

(17:00):
feels oppressive at sometimes but ifyou find if you see duty in the sense
of well those who came before me had aduty to create a better world for me and
in some ways, many, many, many peopledid right civil rights movement, the
movement for women's liberation and so on.
But in many ways, they did it.
And I am suffering because of that.

(17:20):
And do I want to pass down that suffering?
No, if I can make the world a littlebit better for those around me and for
future generations, I do want to do it.
The overwhelm, the way to managethat is little by little, right?
Like if you're like me, you wantto do everything all at once.
And you're like, Holy shit,there's so much to do.
Where do I start?
I've spent just so much shit to fix.

(17:41):
Right.
Yeah.
So just start small, start with like,I'm trying to think of concrete examples.
When I decide to work formyself, I thought, okay,
why am I working for myself?
Because I can't workfor a company anymore.
I can't live by those ways of being.
Those arbitrary rules thatbullshit idea of professionalism.

(18:01):
So then how am I going to show up?
That's different from all of that.
And Shiva wants to doit all at the same time.
And I tried to, and I couldn't.
So then it's like, all right,pick one thing every year and
really work on doing that better.
Right.
So year one was changingmy concept of time.

(18:23):
So slowing down, creating more time,my famous out of office email, um,
always speaking back to a false sense ofurgency, telling my clients, um, I can't
get this done within a 24 hour thing.
I can do it in a week from now.
Right.
So having the courage to,to set those boundaries.
Because it takes time.
Like if you are trying to do, createany change inside of yourself,

(18:48):
it is not a short term thing.
It is a long term thing.
So you got to give yourself thespace and time to, to practice
it, to strengthen that muscle andslowly get over the fear of it.
And then when you feel comfortable inthat, then you take on something else,
so after the concept of time, anti racismbecame something that was, was always.

(19:09):
Always something very important tome, but it felt so overwhelming.
So I'm like, okay, this is the next thingI'm going to tackle is not the word, but
the next thing I'm going to, I'm goingto start being really, really intentional
about in my work, fucking terrifying.
Right?
The first time I used the word whitesupremacy, I almost shat myself.
I'm like, oh my God, theworld is going to come at me.
I know that feeling.

(19:30):
It's like, it's fucking scary to say it.
And then once you say you'relike, oh yeah, white supremacy
is all over the place.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And then it just becomes something normalin your vocabulary and the fear goes away
because you start realizing there's awhole other world of people who agree with
you and the world is changing and you justget used to those other ways of being.

(19:54):
So changing the ways that we're Showingup in the world the ways that we
are thinking or deep belief systems.
It's not a quick thing.
It takes time.
So take your time step bystep and just don't give up.
Yeah.
Don't overwhelm yourself one stepat a time and do not give up.
I love that.

(20:14):
So if.
Well, two things because while you weretalking about like all of this, and then
also just the conversation that we hadbefore this answer question, what happens?
So I think I'm quite emotional Pisces.
Yay.
So I will cry watching like TikTok videos.
I cry watching like The X factor andlike somebody sings their heart out.

(20:38):
I'm just like over here sobbing and Mario.
Um, he looks at me at first.
He was like, are you okay?
Is everything okay?
And now that I've done it so often,he's like, Oh, you're doing it again.
Um, so something that we were talkingabout with ancestry, um, and like,
really thinking about future generationsand all of this stuff, um, the thought

(20:59):
that came to me was how vulnerableit is to admit that you care so much.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like.
Okay, how can I describe this?
Because, yes, when I think about ancestry,um, it's like the impact that I make
and stuff, but then I think the otherside of it, at least for me, is this

(21:21):
idea of, oh, I'm like, really openingmyself up because I really care and
I'm putting myself in positions wheresomebody's going to be like, you're a
little snowflake or you care too much.
Like, it's not that big of a deal.
And then I'm thinking, wow, imagineall the people I could connect with

(21:44):
or all the conversations I could have.
And then I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, like.
Something that I do today couldreally affect somebody tomorrow
and funnily enough, like we, Marioand I saw an old, old, old friend
from when we lived in the south ofSpain and that was seven years ago.
She was in Toredo for like a day,literally, not even a full day.

(22:04):
It was like a day trip from Segovia,but she's from New Zealand and
she made it an effort to come.
And like, connect with us and then askus like, Hey, are you free for lunch?
Like, I really want to see you all.
We haven't seen each other in so long.
And then during lunch, she was like,you know, seven years ago, like you
all let me stay in your house for aweek for free because I had no idea

(22:26):
what the heck I was doing in Spain.
It was my first year.
I didn't know anything.
And she was like, I always think aboutyou too, uh, whenever I go traveling.
And I was like, That was seven years ago.
And then Mario was like, Oh, I forgot.
I didn't even know thatyou stayed in your house.
Are you sure?
And she's like, Yeah, youlet me stay for like a week.
Like you took me to the grocery store.
You told me like how to do things here.

(22:49):
You helped me like moveand find an apartment.
I think about that all the time.
And I'm like, Oh, the fact that youthink about it all the time, and it's
like still a core memory for you.
That's wild.
And so, like, that's likethe vulnerability piece
that I'm talking about.
I don't know if now I feel like I'mrambling, but does that make sense?
Do you know what I'm talking about?
I think there's a lot in there.
Okay.

(23:09):
Sorry.
No, no, no, no.
Okay.
Hold on a question about what iswhat's the vulnerability part about
that of, like, someone holding ontoa memory for 4 years or something
being really important to somebody.
I guess it's like when you're thinkingabout ancestry, is it, I guess,
for you being vulnerable or openingyourself up to really care and like

(23:32):
really wear your heart on your sleeve?
Because now it's like, Oh, I'm reallythinking about really being intentional
about the impact that I make or theripple effect that my actions, thoughts,
um, whatever can make on other people.
And when I think you're opening yourselfup to that, it like, I don't know, I

(23:52):
feel like the vibration, once you do it,it's like the vibration kind of ripples
back to you because it's like shockingabout how, how much like feelings you
are almost opening yourself up to eithertaking on other people's stuff or not or
feeling sadness or not or whatever it is.
I don't know.
I feel like, yeah, thatwas a very complicated.

(24:14):
I don't think it was complicated.
I liked it because it wasn't justlooking at one little part of it was
looking at the bigger picture of it.
So the feeling thing.
I think we've talked about this beforeof like, why are people so afraid to
feel so that's I flip it that way.
It's like, what's what'sthe problem with feeling?
Yes.
I understand that we can get hurt,but we can also live so much.
Yeah.
So much more.

(24:35):
And when people have always saidthat I'm too emotional, my freaking
family, all my life has made fun of me.
Like before the term snowflake wasa thing, my parents were making
fun of me for being emotional abouteverything, making fun, criticizing.
And at some point I started to think.
Why is it that I'm too emotional?
Maybe they're not emotional enough.

(24:55):
Maybe they're not feeling enough.
And I get that because it's withinthe bucket of emotions is pain.
Yeah.
Right.
It's fear.
It's anger.
But I'd rather feel all thosethings than feel dead inside.
And this is probably not the nicest thingto say and probably very judgmental.
But I look around me and I see folkswho don't care, who have given up.

(25:18):
Um, and in some ways they leadreally happy lives, right?
Sometimes I think about that too.
And I'm like mmmmmmm.,
.The ignorance is bliss.
Yes, I can see that.
And recently, recently ish, like a fewmonths ago, um, a friend of mine was
visiting Spain with one of her friendsand they started to to, to cry, getting

(25:40):
very emotional just because like, again,seeing all the systems around us, seeing
all the things, knowing the impact thatwe have and feeling almost hopeless
and helpless and powerless about it.
And then their, their friendssaid, yeah, but isn't it so much
better to know than to not know?
And both of us at the same timesaid, no, it's not better to know.
It's so fucking hard.

(26:02):
It's so painful.
And at the same time, like, Ithink, do I really, would I really,
really be happy or not knowing?
Maybe in some ways I would be,but I think I would also get to my
deathbed and regret not having doneanything, regret not having cared
enough, regret not giving enough shit.
Right.

(26:22):
Yeah.
Because I think, and I think there'sreally a dissonance that goes on
when we try to, to clamp that down.
I look at somebody in my life.
I'm like, I was about to name them.
I'm like, no, don't name them whowent from working in an industry
where it was direct service topeople and is now a programmer.
And they're like, they loved it.

(26:43):
It was an intentionaldecision that they made.
Um, they love the problemsolving a programming.
And at one point they're just like,so a friend of mine is starting
their own restaurant or likeopening up another restaurant.
And I realized the rent isreally cheap to do that.
And that's what they workedin before they were a chef.
And they were like, I have been thinkingnonstop about this, about maybe I want

(27:08):
to go back to that because as muchas I enjoy the programming and the
company I work for is small company,really, I really like his company.
Damn it.
I said that the, I gaveone marker of identity.
Uh, and if you know me, youknow who I'm talking about.
Yeah.
Not namIng names.
No, but they were like, I, I, I reallylove my company, but at the end of the

(27:29):
day, I mean, our clients, it's justhelping rich people get richer and I'm
not really helping the average person.
Um, and I, and I looked at them and I waslike, finally, that's the person I know.
Yeah.
That's, that's where,where have you been hiding?
Because, and that for me goesback to that, that dissonance,

(27:50):
that cognitive dissonance of.
Yeah, ignorance might be bliss.
It's, it's terrifying to be vulnerable,but I think there's actually a deeper
anxiety and anger and frustration thatcan live inside of us if we ignore that
and eventually it eats up inside of us.
And a lot of folks want topretend that they don't care
and be purely individualist.

(28:11):
But I think we've seen where that goes.
That goes to loneliness thatgoes to isolation that goes to
growing old, deeply unhappy.
Even though you might be surrounded withyour own stuff and surrounded with your
own wealth, but you don't have community.
You don't have deep connections.
You don't have deep relationships.
So as scary as feeling might be, andI know it's not so clear necessarily

(28:35):
like the, the feeling about futuregenerations and about, um, community
and, and ancestry, it may notseem so directly clear to what I'm
saying, but it's all connected.
Yeah.
Right.
Choosing to feel or choosing not to feelthere's pros and cons to both for me,
the choosing to feel no matter how muchpain comes with it at the end of the day,

(28:55):
it's much, much more worth it becauseI've lived that cognitive dissonance
and it killed my soul and this is not meranting, but you're talking about being
like emotional, like watching things andgetting emotional right before this call.
I had to, I was like, I'm going to befive minutes because I'm having it.
Yeah.
I'm having an emotional Ted Lasso moment.
I love Ted Lasso so much.

(29:17):
And in one of the episodes, oneof the main characters was like,
what's that thing where, you know,a person with a penis can't get
it up and the other person's likeimpotent and like, yeah, yeah, I'm
feeling that, but, but with my soul.
And the not feeling eventually over time.
That's what that is for me.

(29:37):
Impotence of the soul.
Okay, so I've only seenTed Lasso clips on TikTok.
I've never actually watchedit, but I know a lot of people
are like, Ted Lasso is so good.
I'll have to check that out.
So I want to get into, uh, Wisdomsbecause I feel like when before you were
even saying like ancestry and wisdoms gotogether, you're currently creating an

(30:02):
anthology filled with ancestral wisdoms.
Can you share where or how youcame up with the idea for the
ancestral wisdoms anthology?
I know that's not like the actual nameof the book yet, but we're calling
it ancestral wisdoms anthology.
So where did you come up with the idea?
And then can you describe?
What an ancestral wisdom actuallyis, because I feel like there might

(30:26):
be people who are like, okay, yes.
Yes.
Um, so before that, I also want tosay that it's, it's not a me project.
So it's, it's a co creation with SaraFarooqi and myself, and not just Sara
Farooqi and myself, but also likeevery single one of the contributors.
You are one of them.
Yes.
Yes.
So it's, it really is aco created thing, right?

(30:48):
So the story of it is, I waslaying in bed last summer, maybe?
I think it was last summer.
I think so.
Um, yeah, or like last Juneand I was super anxious.
I was super nervous and I noticedthat every time I'm feeling that
way, something I go back to is.
Laying on the bed with my feet propped up.
So just like kind of sitting on an L,my legs completely flat against the

(31:11):
wall and the rest of my body on the bed.
And that always calms me down.
And for once I had that moment of like,Oh, this is one of those things that
I do, but I don't know why I do them.
Right.
Like this is one of those culturalthings and ancestral things that
are passed down at that moment.
I didn't think it was an ancestral thing.
I was just like, it's a culturalthing that's passed down.
I said, why do I do this?
Right.

(31:31):
I thought my mother always did this.
Like whenever she was feelinganxious or nervous or just not
okay or tired or whatever, shewould always, always do this.
And I learned it from her.
And then I started to Google like,what are the benefits of this?
Like, why do people do that?
Is this a thing?
Right.
And then I started to readabout, Oh, it is a thing.
It calms down your nervous system andall these other things and start to read

(31:52):
about like the history of it, which Idon't remember the history of it, but like
different cultures that do it and so on.
And I think the word ancestralwisdom, the term just kind of
like surfaced in my, my mind.
Um, and this happens a lot.
Like, things just kind of likecome, come up and I'm like, Oh,
where did this term come from?
All right.
And I think, no, I, Iknow where it came from.

(32:12):
So around that time, I was followinga lot of, um, Indigenous creators
on, uh, not on TikTok, on Instagramand, you know, sharing their, their
ancestral ways of being and doing andseeing which is ancestral wisdoms.
And always kind of like.
In the back of my mind, having a longingof like, Oh, I wish I wish I had that.
I mean, there's, you know, they,they had to hold on to that

(32:34):
because they were trying to be, uh,eradicated from the fucking planet.
But there was a longinginside of me as well.
And then I thought that's wherethe, I think that's where that
term ancestral wisdom came from.
Um, and I thought, butis this ancestral wisdom?
Is it like, what is this thing?
So I started to then think about.
Well, what are some other waysof being and doing and seeing and
just actual wisdoms that my, my,my family had passed down to me?

(32:58):
Like, what did I notice my parents doing?
I started to think of somethings like the way that we eat.
There's always a balance in our diet.
We call it gamy side, the hot andcold, and it's not like physical hot
and cold, but it's basically thingslike if you're going to have, um, a
dish with a lot of beans in it, youput a lot of turmeric in it because
turmeric is an anti inflammatory.

(33:18):
All, but I didn't knowthese things, right?
Like we don't say this is why we doit, but our recipes are just that way.
Right.
And I'm like, that's an ancestral wisdom.
So I started to think formyself, what, what are, again,
what are some other things?
And I thought of some, and I thought thiswould be a great article to write about.
And I thought this would bea great book to write about.
Cause I started to Google and I'mlike, I'm not seeing much about this.

(33:41):
Right.
There are some things out there and I,we are definitely not the first ones
to, to, to do something on ancestralwisdoms, but I couldn't really find
anything on Iranian ancestral wisdoms,even specific cultures within Iran.
And then I thought, I don'tlike to do things alone.
And why would I highlight my own voicein my own ways of being and doing so?

(34:02):
Let me make this an anthology.
So that's kind of where it came from.
And really where it camefrom was being lost, right?
Like from not knowing what thefuck are my ancestral ways, right?
What did we do?
And Iran in particular has reallygiven up a lot of its ways.
Cause it's tried so hard in the pasthundred years to be Western and white.

(34:23):
Um, it's really shunneda lot of its own ways.
So a lot of that has been lost.
And my family in particularhas also lost a lot of that.
So I felt so disconnectedfrom our ancestral wisdoms.
Um, and that's really where it came from.
And then that's where the anthologywas birthed a way for the contributors
to connect back to their own ancestralways, explore that interview people

(34:45):
in their communities, research,just find their way back home and
what ancestral wisdom means is.
Any wisdom and wisdom could be a tool.
It could be a recipe, a game,a spell, anything that helps us
live happier, healthier, moreconnected lives in community.

(35:08):
I love that.
So again, not about the self,but ultimately about how do we
make a happy, healthy community?
Yeah.
And something that you mentionedabout like coming back home,
I think is such a big thing.
I mean, that's like what really drew meinto the project too, because I was kind
of going through something similar whereI was thinking, okay, I've been in Spain

(35:30):
now for like five years consecutively intotal about seven going seven, eight ish.
I, there aren't a lot ofVietnamese people around.
Even when I was in Madrid, Iconnected with some Vietnamese
people, but They were from the North.
My family's from the South.
So, like, when I went to go eat, I wanted,like, home, like, You know, my recipes

(35:53):
and I got super excited and then I waslike, this is a little bit different
and I realized it's because we come fromdifferent regions, uh, and then I started
thinking about like, oh, my grandparentsor I don't know, like great grandparents.
And then I even did like a healingsession and the healer messaged

(36:14):
me after and was like, a shortwoman came to me in this session.
She has olive skin.
She's quite like petite.
And she has like a low bun, um,of just like silver gray hair.
I just got thinking, who the heck is that?
I have no idea.

(36:35):
But she was describing it.
And I just sat there and I was like,who could she be talking about?
And then I realized, uh, itwas my great grandma from my.
Mom's dad side, and she was the only, Ithink, great grandma that I actually met.
She came over to the U.
S.
My mom actually came with her when my momwas 14, and I don't know how old my great

(36:57):
grandma was, but they came over to the U.
S.
first by themselves.
So it was my mom, one of my mom'sbrothers, so my uncle and then her.
And then when I was born,she was still alive.
And so she had.
I mean, I was there, I guess there arepictures of me and her together for like,
maybe a year or two, and then she passed.
But just thinking about that, Iwas like, I don't know anything.

(37:20):
Do I even know like my real greatgrandma's name, except for what we
would call her in Vietnamese, becauseI call her, I think it's bà cố, how
we would say it in Vietnamese, butI, that could also be wrong because
we have different names for differentgreat grandparents on specific sides.
Um, so I was like, Idon't know her real name.

(37:42):
I only know what I would call her.
And then I thought about, okay, doI, do I know my grandpa, like my
regular, my regular grandparents names?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
I do.
Thank goodness.
I know that.
Um, but yeah, it's just like.
I don't know.
I love the project.
I love the idea of cominghome to all of that, too.
Here's another idea.

(38:03):
Because same, I don't, I don'tactually know my grandparents names.
I don't my parents have toldthem to me several times because
I've asked, but I always forgetbecause we didn't call them by.
Their name, their names, right?
We called them by their nickname.
And we call them like similar to you,you know, a name for grandmother,
great grandmother, depending onwhich side of the family comes from.
And I think that's also ancestralwisdom, in the sense of, we speak

(38:25):
about people in terms of ourinterconnection with them, our language
has that embedded into it, right?
So it is my grandmother from myfather's side, my grandmother
from my mother's side.
It's not about her onlyabout them as individuals.
It's also about the connection that wehave in the community with each other.

(38:46):
And I think that itself isalso think of ancestral wisdom.
And here's another layer of it.
So much of our ancestral wisdoms are hardfor us to discover for us at the ones who
are, who are living in the global minorityin North America or in Europe, or who
were raised in North America or Europe,because we're, we're trying to understand

(39:06):
our ancestries of the global majority,through the lens of the global minority.
And so for things like thatof like, do I know their name?
And then thinking, did Ineed to know their name?
Yeah.
Right.
Is, is, and I, and I don't know, right, Idon't know the power of names in Iranian
culture, for example, but I do know thatit is very much a collective as culture

(39:30):
and tribe related and the interconnectionand what is our relationship.
And that is more importantthan what your name is.
Hmm.
It, it's messy, right?
Like, I don't know the answer.
I'm just asking the questions.
Yeah.
Um, because so much of it I realizedI'm still trying to understand
my own ancestral wisdoms, um,through the lens of, of the west.

(39:52):
Hmm.
The west, the west.
In air quotes.
Actually, that takes me tothe next question that I
wanted to ask about wisdoms.
So one of your LinkedIn articles sharesthat we aren't unique, and that we're just
products of systems and our surroundings.
So when we're trying like what you weresaying, when we're trying to figure out
what our ancestral wisdoms could be,but for all the folks who are from the

(40:16):
global majority who live in the quote,unquote, West, we look at it through
the lens of what the West could be.
Or what the West is, what does that meanfor the wisdoms that we live and abide by?
Because I feel like I probably pickedup wisdoms from the West first, and
then any wisdom that could have comefrom Like my parents are from Vietnam

(40:40):
and kind of like brush it off to theside because I wanted to be white.
Really?
Yes.
So what does that mean thenI guess for others who feel
like, yeah, I'm super unique.
I mean, yes, we're all like specialone, unique individual, I'll
have our stories and experiencesand nobody can take that away.
But we are products, I believe as well.

(41:02):
So how does that relate back to thewisdoms that we live and abide by?
Because we could be following wisdomsthat are actually almost harmful.
If wisdoms can be harmful.
Yes, that's the thing.
Like, I don't know if Iwould call it wisdoms.
Hmm.
Okay.
What would you call them?
Rules.
Good question.
Rules.

(41:22):
Yeah.
Um, I mean, some of it, yeah, it couldbe wisdoms, but cultures like Italy and
Spain, I do think that they have someof that they've held on more to their
wisdoms than in the United States.
It's just too much of a mix, but certainthings like a lot of what we consider
wisdoms from the global minoritywere really just tools to separate

(41:44):
europeans and make them seem superior.
So, for example, do we needto eat three times a day?
Why don't we just eatwhen we're hungry, right?
And we look for research toprove our, their ideas right.
But many, many cultures around theworld don't eat three times a day.
That's not necessary.

(42:04):
Right.
And a lot, there's, you know, stuffcoming out about how that was just also
a way for European colonizers to separatethemselves from Indigenous cultures
and make themselves seem superior.
Um, so I think we really need toquestion a lot of the things that
we take for granted as wisdom, asscience, as fact, because everywhere

(42:27):
around the world, there's a whole otherset of wisdoms and science and fact.
Yeah.
Right.
So which ones are we elevating andsaying is the right one, the best
one that alone is problematic.
And those of us who are livingin the global minority, we have.
taken on a lot of that without realizing.
And that's where we'vebecome products everywhere.
We're products, right?

(42:47):
It's not just the global minority.
Absolutely not.
We are all products of thesocieties that we lived in.
So that connects back to the idea ofwe're not unique as much as we like
to think we are, which I find veryentertaining in individuals cultures where
they're like, I am my own unique self.
I'm like, yes, you are exactly thesame as everybody else who says that.
How unique is that really?
And we can't help it, right?

(43:07):
Systems are designed for a specificintended outcome and we are that outcome.
So, for those things, we're kindof 2 separate questions for me.
We are all system.
We are all products of systems.
And the other part is that, uh, whatwe think of as wisdom, especially in
cultures that have been recent oppressors.

(43:28):
I question that.
And, you know, that also meanslike in Iran, I, I, I am a Persian.
So Iran has many different ethnic groups.
Persian is 1 of them.
And it's, uh, it's the, the oppressive 1.
Right.
It is the ethnic group thathas been the oppressor.
So I also have to question a lotof the wisdoms that, uh, that come
from, from my Persian culture.

(43:49):
But again, for me, then that's not awisdom because a wisdom is a way that
helps something that helps us livehappier, healthier lives in community.
Hmm.
Right?
So something that oppressesothers is not a wisdom for me.
Hmm.
Okay.
I like that differentiation becauseI think sometimes we are drinking the

(44:10):
Kool Aid, uh, quite a bit and what wecould consider as wisdoms, we might
just need to question some more.
So what is one ancestral wisdomthat you use to guide your
work and how you live out life?
Realism, not like this fake, uh,status quo, live by the rules shit.

(44:31):
It's one that I think has always beenin me and I fought against because of
the, the Kool Aid and the programming,specifically with the United States.
And that, that's the, the collectiveis, is always more powerful and
more important than the individual.
Hey, mind you, I still do believein like having your own, having your
own boundaries, like understandingwhat's important for you, not

(44:52):
letting yourself, not losing yourselfbecause of the collective, right?
But collectivism, the concept of itand the concept that we, nothing ever
has been done by a single person.
One person cannot change the world.
Not possible.
It is done in community.
Yeah.
So I think that's the, the reallybeen a guiding factor and one

(45:14):
that I've struggled to, to cometo because I wanted the attention.
I wanted to be in the limelight.
I wanted to be the star.
My ego is really fucking big and fragile.
And, uh, living in community and,and living in a collective really
kind of smacks that out of youand, um, and activism as well.
And, and Adrian Marie Brown talksabout this and emergent strategy

(45:35):
about having like the rock staractivists where that doesn't work.
Right?
No individual can save everybody.
Yeah.
We all have to help each, save ourselves.
And work together to collectivelysay change has to be done as a group.
It comes into my work in many ways.
I pull in as many people aspossible in all the work that I do.

(45:55):
If I get a project, if I canshare the work, I share the work.
I pull in from the wisdom of many people.
And I always, always, alwaysattribute that wisdom clearly
and say who it comes from.
I stop talking about personalpower and leadership work.
I do.
It's a lot about community power,collective power, the anthology itself.
Right?
My immediate thought was, why thefuck am I going to do this alone?

(46:17):
No, this is not an individual thing to do.
This has to be done incollective and community.
So I think that is the 1 wisdom thathas really been with me all my life
that I was also starved of for many,many years growing up in a very, very
individualist culture and something thatI am constantly looking for and, and

(46:38):
trying to bring in and embrace every day.
I love that.
I think I've also learnedone actually living here in
Spain, um, to be more communal.
I come from, like, my family is fromVietnam and we are collectivist.
I believe at home, like insideclosed doors of the house.

(47:00):
And then when we leave, um, I takeon like an individualist outlook.
And then when I came here to Spain, Ithink it's changing a little bit now.
It's a little bit more individualist,but when I first arrived, it was quite
collectivist and very community oriented.
It was just like, you know, youdo things for the people, like
you work together, like you cometogether so that you can all benefit.

(47:25):
And to me, that was a little bit.
Strange, especially coming fromthe United States and capitalism,
I was just like, no, why do that?
Like we move so slow, we'renot getting anything done?
And I had to kind of likerewire my brain around that.
But I want to get into culture andleadership because I feel like this
is a really great segue into it.

(47:47):
I love talking about this with you.
I feel like whenever we talk aboutthis, I'm like, this is so interesting.
What is, I guess, for you, the biggestmisconception of culture and leadership?
And I have like a two prong thing to this.
What is it in like a tangibletactical way, like the misconception?
And then also, I like to always kindof view things from the emotional,

(48:08):
spiritual, mental, because.
Yes, when we think about tangibletactical, these are like things that
maybe people can fully, you know,oh, I'm going to change this in the
program, but there's also the emotional,spiritual, mental side of everything.
So what is the biggest misconceptionof culture and leadership?
From a tangible tactical point ofview, and then also from an emotional,

(48:29):
spiritual, mental point of view.
So you mean culture and leadership,like intertwined or separate things?
Um, let's do separate.
Okay.
So the biggest misconception ofculture, uh, of culture, interesting.
Cause I'm usually used topeople asking me about cultural
intelligence, not just of culture.
Oh, well, we can do cultural intelligence.

(48:50):
Both.
We can do both.
And I think this is changing.
So when I used to askfolks, what is culture?
Like 10 years ago, the answer, theimmediate answers were the, what
I call superficial things like,um, art, literature, dress, food,
architecture, things like that.
Whereas culture is that's justlike 10 percent of culture.

(49:10):
Culture is so much deeper than that.
It is our, in general, the ways ofbeing, doing, and seeing our paradigms.
Right the mental models that wehave what we think of as right
and wrong and good and bad.
Um, everything down even down to whatour definition of sanity is an insanity.
Those are cultural, right?

(49:31):
It looks different in different cultures.
What is healthy?
What is not healthy?
Um, just even the fact of dividingthings into is or isn't and binary.
That's a cultural thing.
Right.
It is.
We, we think that culture issomething really tangible, but it's
actually completely intangible.
Hmm.
And this is a story I always,and you've heard this one before,

(49:51):
like the story of the fish, right?
Like there's two little fishswimming in the sea and there's
an an older fish swimming by them.
And the older fish swims by and says,Hey kiddos, how's the water today?
And the one little fish looks at theother one and goes, weird, old fish.
And then when the old fish goes away,the other fish, the other little
fish looks at the other one and goes.
What the hell is water, right?

(50:12):
And water is culture.
Yeah.
It's something we're surrounded by.
We are born into it.
We breathe it and liveit every single day.
And because of that, we don't actuallyknow our own fucking culture, right?
That's why we need to leave our culturesto be able to understand our own cultures.
We need to interact with others to evenunderstand what our own cultures are.
Um, so I think that's thebiggest misconception of culture.

(50:33):
It's just what it actually is.
And it is programmedprogramming and it is a system.
Right are because based on ourcultures, we create laws and those
laws also that impact our cultureand it becomes a cyclical thing
and then cultural intelligence.
The misconception of that is that it'sabout understanding other cultures and
it's you can't understand another culture.

(50:54):
You have to understand your own culture.
Right, the work of cultural intelligenceis understanding your paradigms, the
lens through which you see the world,the system that you have been raised
in what you have thought to whatyou have been raised to think the
world is right and understanding thatthat is just unique to your culture.

(51:17):
Right?
The way that you think the world is.
Someone in a different countrydoes not think the same way, right?
And you're never going to fully understandhow they think, how they see the world.
You have to understand your own.
So that's the misconceptionof cultural intelligence.
And it's fucking frustrating as hell.
I have a client right now who's like, wewant to do this whole program on helping
them work better with other cultures.

(51:38):
And can you teach the culture codesso they can understand other cultures?
It's like, no, no, that is notwhat cultural intelligence is.
And I will not be teaching cultural codes.
Hmm.
And then leadership.
Leadership.
Oh, gosh, let's get into it.
Urgh.
Argh.There isn't just onemisconception about leadership.
There are many, many fucking many.

(51:58):
Um, I think the most frustratingones is that more than misconception,
it's a like willful ignorance.
People don't want to talk about theconnection of leadership and power.
Hmm.
And they really, they, and I saythey, again, this is in the context
specifically of Europe and North America.
Right.

(52:18):
Leadership is seen more as hierarchyand I, they love so much to like
shit on other cultures and say, well,in this other culture, uh, they're
much, they're very hierarchical.
We're much more flat structure.
I'm like, no, you're fucking not.
Because at the end of the day,power is concentrated in the
hands of a very few people.
Right.

(52:39):
So the hidden ideas and core of leadershipis for many people, just power and
power over others, mind you, they loveto say that, and then there's the other
side of it, which is this other ideathat leadership is just like building
empowered teams and giving your teama voice and, and Farzin Farzad, who's

(53:05):
one of my favorite humans in the world,he mentioned this on his LinkedIn a
while ago, where you can't empoweryour teams unless you actually give
them power, um, Like you have to givethem decision making power, right?
Empowering is bullshit unlessyou give them fucking power.
Right.
So I think that's another misconceptionof leadership that to be a leader is
someone who brings the best out of people,empowers them, build psychological safety.

(53:29):
And yeah, all that stuff is great,but we are fooling ourselves if we
think we're actually doing that inthe systems that we have right now.
So for me, leadership is someone whois able to take a step back, not just
see their own little world, not onlysee their own team, not see only their
department, take a step back, see thebigger picture of everything, see the

(53:50):
interconnected systems that we live in,understand how the way that you show
up in your team impacts those, thosepeople around you for generations to
come, how it impacts the department, howyour department impacts the business,
how the business impacts the communitythat you live in, how that community
interacts with the world around it.
A leader is someone who's able tosee the systems that are in play

(54:11):
and then understand how, whereand how things are fucked up in
that system and start changing it.
That's a leader for me.
And that's something, that's part ofthe misconception, because leaders don't
think, think that's what leadership is.
Yeah.
Most people don't think of thatwhen they think of leadership.
They think of power, they think ofauthority, they think of being able

(54:32):
to build and develop their own people.
And it's like, ooh, oof, we're leavinga lot of collective power on the table.
Yeah.
Mmmmm.
I remember when we first startedworking together and we were talking
about leadership and I think alot of the things that we saw that
people really gravitated towards waslike, am I a direct communicator and
indirect communicator and what do Ineed to learn to be a better leader?

(54:56):
And we talked about it all the time.
We were like, oh, that's that's likenot even getting into leadership.
That's like super surface level.
And I was just talking to a coupleof friends about like social media
and like content and marketing.
And it's like when somebody asksme, well, um, how many hashtags do

(55:16):
you think I should put in this post?
And I'm like, Oh, I mean, yes, important,but also do that's not even like, that's
not even what we should be talking about.
But thank you for sharingthat and for sharing the
misconceptions and also explaining.
Yeah, go ahead.
Shiva.
One thing about that is I thinkthe reason people like to focus on

(55:38):
things like how many hashtags, right?
Or like, what is this one skillthat I can develop that will make
me a kick ass leader is becausewe all want to feel in control.
And I get that.
And when you think of leadership withinthe lenses of power and systems and harm.
Right.
And also positivechanges that we can make.
It's overwhelming.
It's scary.
And you feel this fuckingsmall in this massive thing.

(56:00):
And you're like, I can't do anything that.
Yeah.
Right.
Because 1 of the issues with thesystem and systems thinking is like,
well, where do I put the boundariesand the boundaries are endless, right?
Like, they could be as big asyou fucking want them to be.
So, and I think that's what scares people.
They have, they, they, withoutbeing able to verbalize it, they
already think, Oh, big and scary.

(56:21):
So I'm just going to focus onthe tiny little tangible things
that I can control directly.
Right.
And that goes back to that.
My friend who wouldn't quit herjob and just look for a new one
because that fear of the free fall.
Yeah.
Oh, we are going full circle y'all.
I mean, even when you were describing thatwas like, wait, let me just talk about
this when we were talking about ancestry.

(56:41):
And like, just the very real fact ofopening yourself up to feeling and then
once you open yourself up to feeling,you kind of realize, oh, I have a lot
more responsibility as a human or whatyou were saying about duty and just
like the impact within the generationsof your ancestry that you leave.

(57:02):
Oh, I love this.
I love a full circle moment.
So, okay, so after now understandingwhat culture or misconceptions of
culture and leadership and knowingwhat your definition of culture and
leadership is previously in your work.
And I think still now, uh, thatyou should you share that you help
leaders to be less of an asshole.
And I love that.
Um, and in one of, uh, the podcastconversations for season two, I was

(57:26):
just talking to, um, I go, who is amindfulness teacher and we were talking
about being an asshole and just theduality of, yeah, I'm an asshole and
I can do something about it, or I aman asshole, but yeah, Or, and I also
protected myself by setting boundaries.
So if somebody thinks I'man asshole, I'm the asshole.

(57:47):
But, um, what does beingan asshole mean to you?
Like, how are you an asshole?
And is everyone an asshole at some point?
Or are we not assholes if we arequote unquote doing the work?
Oh, we're all assholes.
Okay.
We're all assholes.
I love it.
That's kind of what me andIsa came up with as well.
Yes.

(58:07):
Yeah, there's no, youcan't, you can't escape it.
We're all fucking assholesat some point or another.
We are intentionally and also moreoften than not unintentionally.
Yeah.
You know, I think my definitionof assholes is changed a bit.
So originally it was anyone whois not willing to be self aware.
Right, or not willing tolook at their own shit.

(58:28):
And I think that that's changed onlybecause I see so many people doing the
work and saying that they are doing thework, but then really, really respond to,
to, to critique and criticism pushback.
They, they don't respondwell to it, right?
They get very defensive insteadof going, wait, what, what's

(58:48):
the, what are you trying to say?
Hold on.
Let me explore that a bit.
So I'll give you an example of when Iwould have normally been an asshole.
And I chose consciously not tobe the person I mentioned before.
I found him on LinkedIn.
I don't know how through one of my manyrabbit holes, and he started to post
stuff, making fun of leadership work.

(59:08):
All right.
And that's a lot of my work.
And I was so triggered by this shit.
I'm like, this guy is shittingon everything that I do.
Oh my fucking God.
And like, I really liked his other stuff.
Um, and so I sat therewith myself and went, okay.
Okay.
She even would normally justbe like, well, fuck this.

(59:29):
I believe I really liked the stuffthat he said before, but he's saying
things that I don't agree with now.
And so I'm just going to dismiss him.
That would have beenan asshole thing to do.
Instead, I read and reread and rereadthe same fucking posts over and over
again, and then read all the commentsof it and trying to understand it.
And then like, taking an honestlook at how I might be perpetuating

(59:50):
shitty things without realizing it.
And then I started to askquestions on his posts.
Getting curious, be like,okay, Farzin, you, when you
said this, did you mean this?
Like, I'm asking not to question, like,not to push back, but just generally
trying to understand it in my own head.
Yeah.
And he wrote back super kindand like, yes, this is what I

(01:00:10):
mean, because of X, Y, and Z.
And I'm like, fuck me.
Okay.
This is how choosing to not be anasshole looks like when you see that.
You see something that you don'tlike and you question yourself and
think, why is it that I don't like it?
Could be for verylegitimate reasons, right?
Could be something reallydoesn't sit well because it just

(01:00:30):
smells like oppression, right?
Something's not okay in that.
Or is it because it is touchingyour ego because it is poking at
something that you don't want to lookat and then choosing to not be an
asshole is saying, let me look at it.
Let me sit with this.
Let me ruminate on it.
Let me lay down on my bed, stareat my ceiling, think back of why

(01:00:53):
am I getting triggered about this?
What is it about this?
That's triggering me beingreally, really honest about it.
And then through that, I was ableto reach out to him privately.
I asked if he would be my mentor, right?
Like, can I do paidmentorship and learn from you?
Because I'm realizing there's stillstuff that I don't understand.
I'm getting triggered about,but I want to understand.

(01:01:13):
So that's a moment ofchoosing not to be an asshole.
Yeah.
Then there's other moments where Istraightened to being an asshole.
So we're all assholes, right?
And, and, uh, just like we're allracist and we're all capitalists because
that's the system that we live in.
I don't know if assholeness isa system, but we do imagine.

(01:01:36):
But we're all at some point oranother choosing not to look at
ourselves and choosing to ignore theways in which we are harming others.
We are putting others down.
We are ignoring others, excluding others.
We're choosing to ignore those things.
We're choosing to ignore the overly hardlines and boundaries that we have put.

(01:01:57):
Like you talked aboutboundaries, for example, right?
Something I've been thinkingabout a lot is we like to say
that I'm, you know, I have to putboundaries for my mental health.
And people say this aboutmy, my family all the time.
Like I, I really have issues with my,with my, with my parents and like, there's
moments where I just have to stop talkingto them cause it just gets too much.

(01:02:17):
And folks have always said, but youneed that for your mental health.
I'm like, now I'mstarting to question that.
Cause there's always been something thatdid not sit well with me about that.
And I'm like, and is it becauseof my mental health or is it
purely because of my own comfort?
Am I just putting mycomfort above their needs?

(01:02:39):
And is that an asshole thing to do?
And I think it is right.
So it's, it's messy.
Again, we're all assholes andwe're going to be assholes.
And a lot of it is thatintentionality and that reflection.
Um, and, um, going back tothat vulnerability, right.
Cause it fucking hurts.
It hurts when you realizeyou are hurting other people.

(01:03:01):
Yeah,
I was just thinking aboutwhat you were saying.
Like, I mean, we're goingto be assholes regardless.
I know I am an asshole, uh, invery many different areas of my
life and I'm always learning.
And then I think the one thing for meis I just hope that I've cultivated
like deep enough relationships sosomebody could tell me that I'm being

(01:03:26):
an asshole, even though like, you know,it's not their job to, but, um, at
least it'd be like, Hey, what you justsaid or did was assholey and hurt me.
And instead of like fully cuttingme off, uh, which if somebody needs
to, okay, then that is what it is.
But I hope to cultivate deep enoughrelationships where somebody cares enough

(01:03:47):
and it's fucking terrifying to be like,Hey, as a friend, I mean, as a friend,
it's scary to be like, Hey, you hurt me.
And for me to come to that relationshipagain and be like, Oh, I'm sorry.
Let me think about it.
Let me see what I did so thatI can fix it for the future.
That's what I would love.
It's a work in progress because likeyou said, like we were saying in the

(01:04:08):
beginning of the conversation, likeit's a lot of vulnerability and opening
myself up to feeling because one thing,I mean, friendships, we could talk about
this on a different podcast episode.
I think that would haveto be the other thing.
Uh, we're so used to doing thiswith like maybe family or like our
significant others or our partners, butlike we don't necessarily have that,

(01:04:29):
like, deep relationship with friends.
Maybe some people do.
I don't think I've everhad that growing up.
Um, it was always like,oh, I'm gonna cut you off.
Or, oh, we just like, you know,drifted apart and whatever.
Um, but I would really now that I'molder, I would really love to have
friends that like, you know, we cancome to each other and maybe call each

(01:04:49):
other out, call each other in, telleach other that we're being assholes.
And instead of it completely ruiningthe relationship where we walk on
eggshells around each other, itactually deepens like our relationship.
And we have like that mutualrespect for each other.
We have like the intentionsto show up and stuff.
Those are just my thoughts.
But, um.

(01:05:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyways.
Um, so before we wrap up, I knowthat I was like, I still want to
talk about so many other things,but we have, you know, time.
Um, so before we wrap up the conversation,I feel like one for all the people who
are listening, if you get me and Shivatogether and order us 12, 15, I don't
know how many churros it was at midnight.

(01:05:31):
We'll talk until four o'clockin the fucking morning.
But this podcast cannot be untilfour o'clock in the morning.
So before I get to the ending,ending questions, I have
one more question for you.
Uh, what is a nuanced conversation thatyou think that we're not having enough of?
So many, there are so, so many, Imean, I think there's obvious ones

(01:05:51):
around racism, white supremacy,capitalism, et cetera, but one that is.
What I really don't see us talkingabout is family and things like what
I said before, uh, is, uh, you know,the boundaries I put with my family, is
it because of to protect my own mentalhealth, or is it because I'm putting my,
my own comfort over their, their needs?

(01:06:15):
And I think, especially forour age, when we get in, well,
you're younger than me, but-
yeah.
-We get into when we get intoour forties or more like when our
parents are getting into theirlate sixties, seventies, eighties.
I don't see people talking aboutthat, about how hard that is.
Seeing, you know, your, your parents,for many folks, myself included,

(01:06:38):
deteriorate, not just physically, butmentally, and not in terms of dimensional
Alzheimer's, not quite would not yet,um, but the paranoia, the loneliness,
the isolation, the, and, and when Italk about this with, with friends, I
realized, okay, I'm definitely not alone.
Yeah.
There's a lot of folks whose parents.

(01:07:00):
Are the same who don't leave thehouse, don't have friends, just
sit at home all day in front ofthe television, get sucked into the
bullshit of Facebook and all this stuff.
And, and I think that'ssomething we don't talk about.
We, we forget our elders andthis is again very specifically
for North America and Europe.

(01:07:21):
Um, although I know Southern Europe lovesto say that, but we don't, we're, we're
still close to our, our parents and yes,and they, they, I think they are more
than, than other, other, um, culturesin, in Europe and North America for sure.
But I'd say as a whole in NorthAmerica and Europe, um, it is a
conversation that we need to be havingmore of and being more mindful of.

(01:07:41):
It's, we really, when folks getinto age, they become invisible.
Yeah.
And I stay up at night terrified, onefor my parents, like this is something
I've had to admit to myself, but itfeels like at least one of my parents
is just slowly waiting to die, right?
And they're, they're not that old.

(01:08:02):
There are 74, they coulddo things differently.
Still, they just choose notto, they choose to wallow.
And it's really, really hard,no matter how much I've tried.
It's like, the only thing I can do isjust support them in their wallowing.
And just kind of swimming in theirisolation and their loneliness.
And when I asked how they'redoing, they're like, If, you

(01:08:23):
know, how, how was your day?
It doesn't matter.
Every day is the same.
They're all blending together, youknow, and it's really fucking hard.
Yeah.
And this is where I become that coldbitch and I do close myself off.
That one is too hard for me.
And I know I will regret it.
And at the same time, I'm constantlythinking about how the fuck do
we not get to that for ourselves?

(01:08:43):
Yeah.
And I think the answer is community.
So this is also thinking long term, right?
I think our parents, especially of,you know, immigrants, I don't even
know, cause I'm seeing it everywhere.
They thought so much just about making alife and making life for their children.
They didn't think so much fortheir own future and how that's

(01:09:04):
going to look like to get old.
Yeah.
Um, and it's something thatwe're not looking at either.
And so many people of mygeneration are like, I'm just
going to work until I'm dead.
Like, okay, sure, but canwe do this in community?
Oh, I love that.
And also lots of things to consider.
Also thinking about, I mean,I'm not here with my family.

(01:09:24):
They're back in the United States.
Um, and my parents are also getting old.
And sometimes I'm thinking, well, what?
Is going to happen and we have a, likean okay relationship, but similar to
you, I'm thinking, um, how much, howmany boundaries are, how much of my
boundaries are almost closing me offbecause it's like too painful to approach

(01:09:49):
these conversations with you and yes,they, it has to be both ways, right?
Like, it's not just me always pulling.
Um, I can't, but when will it shift?
When will it be bothof us working together?
And I don't know.
Yeah.
I think that's what I'vegotten to with my parents.

(01:10:09):
I don't think we'll get there.
Yeah.
And that's like a very real, reality.
I mean, like, it is definitely a nuancedconversation that I don't think we're
having enough of and a conversationthat maybe we're not even having in
general, uh, because like what you weresaying, once you get older, it's almost
like you're invisible and I can see it.
It's very real.

(01:10:30):
I mean, they're in Spain.
They're quite a lot of elderly folks.
Um, so maybe it is a little bit more of apart of the conversation here, but I know
back in the United States, like once youhit a certain age, it's like, Oh, nothing.
Yeah.
Spain.
I do.
Like, I, I think one of the thingsthat keeps me here is that it does
feel like a better place to get old.
Like you still see people intheir eighties going around.

(01:10:50):
Like I knew her when she was 83.
Seriously, she was wearing herheels every day at four o'clock.
She went down and had a ginand tonic with her friends.
83 fucking years old, youknow, and this is not unusual.
So it's, it's a different way.
It's a different concept of gettingold, but that is, I also see more
for the women than for the men.
Hmm.
That's true.
I remember when I first got here, I waslike, I, I think my dad was with me and I

(01:11:13):
looked at him and I was like, dad, I thinkI'm going to become a Spanish grandma.
I don't know if I want children, so Idon't know how it would be a grandma.
But if we go back to ancestry,I could be a grandma still.
Um, and in the middle of the day,they were like all cute, dressed
up and their hair perfect withtheir makeup and their pearls.
And they went to go get churros orthey went to go get their gin tonic.
And I'm like, 80 years old.
Yeah.

(01:11:34):
You're drinking a gin tonic.
Oh, my gosh.
I can't even drink a gin tonic.
And I'm 30.
Uh huh.
Same.
Same.
Same.
I love that.
Um, okay.
So, before we wrap up,final, final question.
Uh, I love ending each episode witha journaling prompt, exploratory
question, or an activity for people.
Do you have one?
related to either the topicsthat we covered in this episode,

(01:11:56):
Ancestry, Wisdoms, or Cultureand Leadership, or something else
that you can share with people?
Sure.
So there's a drilling promptthat we use for the anthology.
And I believe, I don't know if SaraFarooqi came up with it, or Talia Molé.
And I don't know if I pronouncedTalia's last name correctly there.
But it is something around, and Isay something wrong, cause I'm not

(01:12:16):
going to get the wording just right.
Thinking about like, look, look backand remember the ways of being and
doing that your, your family justhad things that you may have taken
for granted and start noticing whatcould be the wisdom in those things.
Right.
So for example, and you're goingto have to do some thinking and
like some free flow writing forthis stuff to come out because it's

(01:12:37):
stuff that we take for granted.
Right.
So it is things like realizingas an adult, every single time
I cook something with beans, Iput tumor again without thinking.
And it was only much later in lifethat I realized, Oh, it's because
the anti inflammatory thing.
Right.
So you may not even know thatthere's a wisdom hidden in those
things that you took for granted.

(01:12:58):
Okay.
So just write it down, write downall the things that you took for
granted that you, you, you didas a child that your family did.
And what were the wisdoms in that?
It could also be the rituals that youhad that maybe as a kid, you're like, I
don't want to do this, but now look backand explore why, why were your, why was
your family and your ancestors doing that?
So it's not a clear cut journaling prompt.

(01:13:20):
It's a lot more of a reflectionthat you would free flow right on.
I love that though.
I will be thinking about that because Istill have to put together my submission.
It's like hard.
Um, you all gave me like exploratoryquestions to like consider.
To pull in more of like the, uh,wisdoms part and I was like, Oh shit,

(01:13:41):
like I got to sit and like, really?
Yes.
It is a journey.
Like we have been so disconnected.
We've been so intentionally again.
Colonialism has cut us off fromour fucking roots and it is.
It's not easy finding our way back.
It really takes that time and sitting withourselves and interviewing our community.

(01:14:03):
Hmm.
I was just talking to Mario andwe were talking about like recipes
that my grandma, cause she usedto have a catering business in
her house when we were younger.
Is that legal?
I don't know.
But that's how she paid money.
Um, but we were just thinking, Oh,next time we see her, maybe we should
just spend like a couple of days.
I think my grandma has.
I'm pretty sure she has dementia, uh, now.

(01:14:24):
So we were like, okay, we have tospend a couple days with her and
see if she would be willing and alsoable to remember recipes because
like that stuff that is lost.
And especially now that I'm livingaway from my family, I don't have that
connection to anymore, but anyways, okay.
Well, Shiva, thank youso much for joining.

(01:14:44):
Thank you so much for being here.
I love all of our conversations.
I feel like they couldliterally go on forever.
Can you share if there's anything thatyou're excited about in the upcoming
months and where people can reach you?
Sure.
Well, one, thank you for having me.
This has been fun as always.
I never know what's going tocome up and I never know what's
going to come out of my mouth.
And I love how it is.

(01:15:04):
It's a conversation.
Like, it's a genuine conversation.
So excited.
Definitely the, theAncestral Wisdoms Anthology.
We have the.
First draft of the submissions duein September, September of 2023.
And, uh, I, we have no idea how it'sgoing to go in the sense of like, we're
taking every step just as it comes.

(01:15:25):
We're trying to do things very,very differently than anybody else,
um, that we have seen or how we'veexperienced in writing processes.
Um, so excited about that excited forlooking for and finding an agent or
a publisher who wants to bring thisamazing thing to the world with us.
And the best way to reach out to meis either on LinkedIn, um, finding me
at, you know, Shiva Roofeh or writeme an email at hello@ShivaRoofeh.com.

(01:15:49):
Love it.
I've also linked all ofthat in the show notes.
I've also linked, um, Shiva'sTEDx talk we did and we get the
chance to go to talk about that.
Okay.
Well, it's linked in the shownotes if you want to watch it.
Um, and then also some of theother resources and articles that
we mentioned in this episode.
Thank you, Shiva.
This conversation was awesome.
And to everybody else listening, wewill see you in the next episode.

(01:16:15):
Or talk to you in the next episode.
Stay fierce, fam.
If you're hearing this message, that meansyou made it to the end of this episode.
Yay!
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode andthought to yourself, whoa, it me,
I'd love if you could share this withothers, post about it on social media,
and or leave a rating and review.

(01:16:36):
Don't forget to subscribe too.
Want to hang out with me inother areas of the internet?
You can follow me on Instagram@CassandraTLe for brand message and
content marketing tips and resources.
Check out my business@TheQuirkyPineappleStudio.
Thanks again and seeyou in the next episode.
Stay fierce, fam.

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