November 1, 2022 • 22 mins
In this episode, Anil and Melissa talk with Karen Anderson, who coordinates educational programs at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute. She talks about the Teacher of Tomorrow program, which connects teachers of blind K-12 students with blind people so that our lived experience can inform their instruction of the children they teach. Karen shares the reaction of some of these teachers to the kick-off event of the year-long program, which was held at the end of September 2022.
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(00:02):
♪♪♪ Welcome to the Nation's
Blind Podcast, presentedby the National Federation of the Blind,
the transformative membership and advocacy
organization of blind americans.
Live the Life You Want.
Hello and welcome to the Nation'sBlind Podcast.
I'm Melissa Riccobono, and I'm here with?
Anil Lewis and I'm here with MelissaRiccobono.
(00:24):
Hi, how are you, Anil?
I'm doing great.
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast.
Welcome, fall is here.
Yes, it is. And winter is coming.
Yeah, that that is true.
That is true.
How is the weather in Atlanta? It's nice.
We're actually having a fall.We got some 70 degree weather here.
When I was up in Baltimore just last week,
I think we went from eightiesin Baltimore to 60.
We did. And it was 48 this morning.
(00:46):
Oh, my poor children going to schoolwere all saying, oh, it's so cold.
But anyway, it's supposed to be,
I think, seventiesby the end of the week up here too.
So, yeah.
So your kids are going to school?
Kids are going to school.
Real nice segue there, Melissa.Yeah, well, thank you.
You know, I'm a professional. Yeah.
Don’t try this at home, kids.
Yeah. Yes.
(01:06):
We're going to be talking about educationtoday.
Kids going to school. Yeah. Yeah.
But but not just kids going to school,but their teachers more more broadly.
And what we do in the National Federationof the Blind
to help with the educationof blind students in all sorts of ways.
And we've talked a lot about our NFBBraille Enrichment for Literacy
and Learning Academyand how that helps kids very directly,
(01:29):
either with the in-home editionor with in-person NFB BELL.
So many of our programsreally work directly with the students,
and that's really good. You know,you can get that one on one impact.
It's a lot like thatstarfish story, right?
And the guy keeps throwing starfish in.
It makes a difference on that one.
But I think the programwe're going to be discussing
today is one of those exponential-impactprograms.
(01:50):
Yeah, and I think we have to lookto those exponential-impact programs
so that our impact can be broaderand broader and broader
because it is great to make a differenceone kid at a time.
And it's especially rewarding
when you're in those programsand you see those specific kids.
Absolutely. But then we want more.
What is it that we would need in order
(02:12):
not to have to have an NFB BELLor maybe to have it, but to have it be...
a complement? Yeah.
I think that this program
that we're going to talk about talks a lotabout those types of questions.
And we have a special guest here with us.
Do want to introduce her, Anil,because I can never remember her title.
Sure, because the suspense is killing me.
What is this program they speak of?
(02:33):
Absolutely. Yes.
We’re joinedby the coordinator of education programs
for the National Federation of the Blind,Miss Karen Anderson.
Hi, Karen.
Hey, everybody. How's it going?
Going well, how are you doing? Great.
Have you recovered? Ah, no!
Just for our listeners' sake,
we just finished a weekend of workingwith our, da da da da...
(02:53):
Teachers of Tomorrow.
Tell us a little bit about Teacherof Tomorrow.
Teachers of Tomorrow is a program aimed
at connecting early careerteachers of blind students
with the lived experiencesof blind people.
So what we hear a lotand what we know is that often
these teacherswho get their certifications in teaching
(03:16):
blind students have no real connectionwith blind adults.
The first connection they ever makewith blind people is with their students.
And so there's no real understanding
of how a blind personmight truly accomplish certain things,
but they also don't have the opportunityto see blind people truly
(03:37):
being successful and living the livesthat they want to live.
And so we want to make surethat teachers of blind students
have the opportunity to get connectedwith blind people and more importantly,
with the organized blind movement,so that when they have a student who says,
"I want to march in the marching band"or "I want to be a hairdresser,"
or "I want to be an auto mechanic,"they have a group of blind people
(04:01):
they can reach out to to say,All right, is this possible?
And how is this possible?
And can you connect mewith somebody who's doing it?
And as we say, as an organization,so much of what we do is about shifting
those expectations.
And if you have a person who'sbeen trained to work with blind students.
Right.
And give them a desireto reach their full potential,
how do you do that
when you don't really understandthe full capacity of blind individuals?
(04:22):
I mean, it's something to be said aroundhow the teachers
we work with shift a paradigmof expectation for their students.
Based on what you just said,
being in touch with them, being aroundsuccessful blind adults.
Yeah, and it's so true.
And I was just thinking back,you know, as as far as just my experiences
as a blind kid, I remember, number one,my teacher of blind students, told me
(04:44):
I just could never be an artist
because nobody could really understandor tell what I was trying to draw.
And that was it.
You know, I was in first or second gradeand it wasn't like,
let's try to get you into sculpture.
Let's give you some tactiledrawing tools. No, no.
It was just. No, no.
As a blind person,you just can't do this. Yeah.
In my sophomore year,I really wanted to be a music therapist.
(05:05):
And to her credit, my teacher of blindstudents did find a musical therapist
that I could job shadowfor a part of a day at a nursing home,
which wasn't exactly the populationthat I wanted to work with,
but at least I sort of got a feelingfor what she did.
And at the end of that,the teacher said, You know,
I just really didn'tthink you could be a music therapist.
But, you know, now maybe, maybe you could.
(05:26):
And I mean, that changed her mind.
But I just thought,what made you think I couldn't?
And so I just think that there'sso many things that happen like that
every day to the adultsthat really do want
what's best for blind kidsand yet have been conditioned by society,
by their own experiences, bymaybe possibly their training in some ways
(05:48):
to have kind of those low expectationsand not really to understand
what blind people truly can door how they can do that.
Karen, is that kind of whywe need this program, do you think?
I think that's a big part of it.
It was really interesting this weekendto hear the teachers talk about what
they didn't feel they were providedin some of their training programs.
(06:10):
They really didn't have the opportunityto connect with blind people.
So even if they have that ingrainedunderstanding,
like gut-level understandingof the capabilities of blind people,
it's so much harder to express that
to your students and to keep living thatwith your students.
When you don't have the opportunityto see blind people
(06:32):
living the lives that they want.
And when you are surrounded by,I guess, a structure
that really doesn't believein blind people, the education system
is not really set up for blind studentsto succeed in a lot of ways.
Yeah, I found it very interesting hearingsome of the struggles of the teachers.
But really quickly, to go backto what Melissa was saying by her story,
(06:53):
I find it very interestingthat you hear the stories of how,
you know, these blind studentsthat are doing something excellent.
Right.
And unfortunately, they're deemed to bethe exception of the group.
But that's just a manifestationof what happens
when you put an appropriateeducational environment together
that allows them to tap into their talentsjust like any other student.
I think more and more blindpeople can really aspire to higher goals,
(07:17):
and I think that that was really obvious.
Here.
Let's start down this path
as we work with our Teacher of Tomorrow,this new cohort that we just brought in,
it was very tellingvery early on in the introductions
that many of them had already kindof recognized the shortcomings
of the preparationthat they've had in order to do this job.
And I think that that speaks, you know,first and foremost to the disconnect,
(07:39):
right, of blind people being involvedand being engaged with that work.
So I think that that kickedthe meeting off to me
with, oh, wow, we're going to be in fora really interesting ride this weekend.
Yeah, it's definitely somethingthat I noticed when we were doing
introductions, how many people recognizedwhat they had not gotten
in their teacher preparation programsand had really come seeking that.
(08:03):
And I will say Anil a lot of thatcame out in their interviews,
which is why they were chosento be a part of this cohort,
because they really were seekingthat lived understanding.
They really were seeking that communityand they were seeking
to be a part of somethingbigger than themselves.
I think that's really, really powerful.
That's rewarding.
And I know in previous podcastswe've had, Melissa's actually interviewed
(08:26):
some of the teachers of blind studentsthat have worked with her children
and I think that just in her example,right, of at least taking advantage
of the opportunityto do some music therapy for seniors,
if you can take some of these teachersand in her case, a lot of them
were just mainstream teachers.
But you can kind of educate themabout the tools and also kind of alter
their expectations.
A lot of what we need to happenhappens organically.
(08:47):
I don't want to makeit sound like it's that simple
because the program had a lotmore components this weekend that I think
were invaluable, and that was demonstratedin the survey results we received.
Well, just one more quick thingabout the teachers.
I think it's also really importantand I think really where the education
system fails most often is for those kidsthat have some residual vision.
(09:09):
Yeah.
Because society just wants those kidsto use that vision they have.
And these teachers really understandthat it's not
what a child can see, it'swhat they can do.
And they need to be able to useall of their tools
to be able to do all different things.
And sometimes it'sthat you have to plant those seeds
(09:31):
and make them realizethat those tools really can be helpful.
And we did have some discussionsabout that
in the very short time that I was ableto be with the teachers, things like,
you know, making sure that a child hasa Braille display to hook up to a computer
and see that doing code for cybersecurity might be made a lot easier
if they use Braille to check for errorsthan trying to listen to
(09:53):
everything with a screen reader, you know,a very practical way to use Braille.
And maybe they're notreading novels in Braille,
but at least they're using itin that part of their job to be efficient.
And I think that's really important.
So I just kind of wanted to get Karen'sthoughts on that a little bit,
and then I think we should definitely go
into the survey resultsbecause I'm really interested
in what the teachers had to say as well.
(10:14):
I think one thing that stood out to me
was that some of our teachers really doget that on a gut level.
Melissa, what you were saying about visionnot being the most effective sense
for these kidsand them already feeling discouraged
or like they're the odd man outor the odd teacher out
because they are pushing for some of thesethings and being pushed back against,
(10:37):
you know, hearing other teachers,other people in the learning environment
saying, oh, no, no,this child should be using their vision.
This child should be learning visually.
And I felt a lot of hope from them hearingus say, we will come in and help you.
We will come in and help advocate with youand for this child.
(10:57):
We will come in as blind people.
No, we're not like those paid advocateswhere we have a vested interest
in getting paid.
We will come in and help you advocatefor the best interests of the child.
And the whole disconnect between,you know, the students with low vision,
you know, who have some residual sight
and the necessary toolsthey need to be competitive
in the education environmentreally came out
(11:19):
in our discussion of the terminologyand the use of the word blind.
You know,
I thought that that was just goingto be kind of a simple little presentation
aroundgetting them to understand what we meant.
But it turned to such a rich discussion,you know, around the use of language
and how it impacts the blind studentsthat they work with.
Yeah. It was powerful.
It was powerful to have them sort of
(11:40):
start to unpack their feelingsabout the word blind.
And again,this is the start of a yearlong program.
They're going to be participating inevents.
This was the kick offevent this last weekend of September
or first weekend of October, depending onhow you want to read the calendar.
But then they're going to have monthlyvirtual sessions where they talk with us
(12:03):
and with other blind peopleand members of the Federation.
They're going to have three more in-personsessions.
They're going to come to our Washingtonseminar.
They're going to get to goto Ruston, Louisiana
to visit one of the best training centersfor blind people in the world.
As well as the Professional Developmentand Research Institute on Blindness.
And they're also going to get to go
to our 2023national convention in Houston, Texas.
(12:26):
Wow, I want to, I want to participate.
I know we're not even done Anil,because they're also going to get paired
with mentors, mentor teachersof blind students who have been doing this
for a little while.
Some of our mentors were membersof the 2021 Teachers of Tomorrow cohort.
So they're coming back aroundand now being mentors.
(12:46):
I think that's really cool.
But they're going to be mentoredby teachers who now understand the value
of being connected to the blind movement.
Our movement of blind people.
And I think all of those pieces together,I really can't wait to see where
these teachers are in a yearand I can't wait to continue
(13:06):
to have them be involvedin so many of our other programs.
Yeah. Yeah.
And what might they help us create?
Absolutely. In the future?
I mean, you know, it's
one thing to keep the programswe already have going, but these teachers
could have the next really big idea thatwill help us jump on to something else.
I believe that.
Maybe more early childhood programsor maybe more,
(13:28):
I don't know what,but that's exciting to me as well.
Yeah.
One of the other thingsthat kind of stood out was
we only had them for those two daysand we were able to share, you know,
some personal stories.
That also kind of came out in the survey
as something that they feltwas really beneficial.
Hearing the lived experiences of blindpeople, that validates kind of really
kind of our catalystfor even starting this particular program.
(13:49):
So I really like that.
But what was really telling for meand I'm looking at the agenda
and we have these experiences,we're going to teach them how to pour
you know, going to teach them how to chop
and we're going to teach them,you know, how to carry a tray.
And use a cane.
And you're thinking.
Okay, the cane I knew, you know,because that's, you know,
orientation mobility is a certification,the whole deal.
(14:11):
You think, okay,that's really something substantive.
But I'm like, really,I'm going to teach them
how to pour, we're going to try to chop
and we're going to teach youhow to carry a tray.
And man, they came backfrom that experience so enlightened
and it was really kind of interestingwith respect to what we kind of deem
as fairly simple day-to-day thingsand I think this is
what was really helpful for me,that we take for granted,
(14:33):
really helped them understandnot the quote/unquote challenges
that blind people face to do those things,but the real true alternative ways
of using other informationthrough our other senses
to get those fundamental things done.
And if we can get them to understand that,then hopefully we can get to
where Melissa was just talking about,
get them inspired to help us figure outwhat is that next innovative program.
(14:55):
And I just want to point out, they did allthese things under learning shades. Yes.
Because we know that using learning shadesis the best way to teach
non-visual techniques and to trulymake them feel like they are effective.
We know that they're effective.
But if you're still trying to usethat residual vision that you have,
it's a lot harderto feel confident in those techniques.
(15:16):
And I thought it was really powerfuland telling that on the surveys
we had a couple of teachers say,"You could have had us move
between stationswith our learning shades on.
We wouldn't have minded." Yeah,that's one of them.
Wonder if that would’ve been a consensusfor the whole group. Yeah.
But I thought it was really coolto see how much
they really didtake that experience wholeheartedly
(15:37):
committing to that and recognizingwhy it's important.
I'm looking forward to doing more of thosenon visual skills experiences
with these teachersover the next three in-person sessions,
because I think having more experienceslike that will help them recognize
how powerful it can be for their studentsto have those non visual skills.
(15:59):
And I mean the ones that you chose areso practical, you know, obviously
the cane,I mean that just speaks for itself.
But pouring, I mean, studentsdo need to know how to pour.
Chopping.
I mean, a lot of students don't getthat chance to work in the kitchen at all.
And so giving them that confidence.And carrying a tray?
There is so much to be said for a kidbeing able
to go through the lunch line on their own,carry their own tray.
(16:21):
That's a rite of passage.
That is something that's so important.
You know, going to the mall,to a food court with your friends,
being able to carry that tray,going to a college dining hall, being able
to carry your tray, all of those timesthat that's just such a practical skill.
And those are so oftenthe skills, especially right now
in our fast paced schools,which are just so focused on
(16:44):
so often teaching for the test,and that's it.
The things that people just say, well,that's just too hard, you know,
we'll have somebody go through the linefor you or whatever else.
I mean, I think those things arewhat can make the most difference
when you're actually expecting the studentto do something like everybody else.
Like my experience in biology in collegewhen we were dissecting
(17:06):
and I was just sure that my TA wasjust going to want me to have my partner
cut the rat open and the TA’s like,nope, here's your scissors.
I’m like, but ...I can't see!
Nope, you're just going to break the ribslike everybody else.
And that was,that is one of my best experience.
I mean, it was gross. Good for you.
But it was,she expected no different of me
(17:27):
than any other students in the class.
And she's like,you know, if you make a mistake
and you cut into something you shouldn't,
then we'll get somebody else'sand we'll show you what you need.
Like somebody elsemight cut into the wrong thing to.
But if you do this and this, you'renot going to cut into the wrong things.
And more and more,if teachers can give students
those high expectationsand those messages, even if they seem
(17:48):
really small growing up,they just turn into huge, huge things.
Yeah.
And whether these teachers
were actually prohibiting studentsfrom doing those things because of
well, I'll say it, a bit of fear.
But their lack of knowledgeabout that, this can be done.
They left with the,
oh yeah, I'm going to go backand yeah, they're going to carry the tray
and oh yeah, I'm going to, you know,so really kind of
(18:09):
whether they were prohibitive in the past,they're definitely going to be proactive
in the future to really, you know,creating more of those opportunities.
And even beyond that,holding their blind students accountable
for doing those fundamental things,which I think is important.
Anything else, Karen,that stood out to you in the survey?
I know we need to wrap up soon, but,you know,
I justI think we could talk all day about this.
I just I think I knewwe'd hit on some really powerful skills
(18:33):
and really important thingswhen after the second meal
that we had together, which was breakfast,two teachers were walking back
to the conference room with meand asked me like,
how can I teach my studentshow to carry a tray?
How can I teach my studentshow to do this?
You know, I really wasn't sure thatthis was age appropriate, but you know,
they're in middle school and, you know,it seems like you do it really well.
(18:56):
And it was awesome to be able to say,well, actually we're going to spend
a whole bunch of time on that.
So that was really cool.
And I think just the opportunityto have that social time,
some meals and some timeto just conversate with blind adults
was really powerfuland time to hear from some blind students.
They got to hearfrom a high school student
(19:18):
and then a recent college graduateabout the things that worked for them
and about the things that they really wishtheir teachers had done.
And that was really powerful for themalso.
Yeah.
And you're right, Melissa,we could talk about this all day,
but I feel we would be remissif we didn't focus on something
that Karen mentionedin her initial description of the program.
We actually had some time.
We explained to themhow we could help them
(19:39):
be their best advocate for their studentsbecause it was obvious
that they had the heart, right,and they wanted the best.
But sometimes, you know,they're in positions
that prohibit them from really being kindof the more assertive advocates.
So I think having that discussionwith them around how we can collaborate
and be partners and kind of sharethat responsibility together
toward the best interest of the studentwas also extremely powerful.
(19:59):
They they in my opinion, seemedvery pleased that that potential existed.
Yeah, pleased and surprised.
Do you charge?
You don't,you don't charge anything? Nope,
we do it out of the goodness of our heart.
I didn’t think NFB playednice with others.
Yeah.
And hopefully that will help themlook at things
differently when advocates docome into the IEP meetings.
(20:22):
Because I think it's really important
for blind students and familiesof blind students to have advocates,
other blind people with them in their IEPmeetings, even if you know
all of the things,even if you feel like you have
all of the philosophy and all of that,I feel like it's really important
and powerful to have another blind personat that table with you,
somebody who is able to look at thingsand give some reminders of,
(20:46):
hey, this is age appropriateand someone who is a little bit more able
to say some of the thingsthat that might be hard for the parents
to say because they have to workwith the teachers on an ongoing basis.
And hard for the teachers to saybecause they have that connection
with the school systemand because this is their livelihood.
So hopefully the conversationthat we had about being advocates
(21:06):
will help them feel more comfortableand at ease
when there are advocates in the IEP roomand in other spaces.
Absolutely. And that's what we said.
We're not here to you know, we're hereto praise you if you're doing good stuff.
So don't feel likewe're just going to jump down your throat
and talk about all the stuffthat's going wrong by any means.
You know, we're here for you
(21:27):
and we're here for that child,and we're one more person on that team.
PresidentRiccobono did a great job of the intro.
He kind of laid laid it down, really,you know, admitted that,
you know, the education system is failing
our blind kids,but we're not blaming them for it.
We're trying to help thembecome part of the solution with us.
And I think that's powerful.
I also think it's important to statethat this program
(21:48):
is possible due to a gracious giftfrom the Pfeiffer Foundation.
They originally funded the first cohortthat Karen mentioned,
and because it was mostly virtual,they gave us an extension
to use the rest of the fundingto actually host this second cohort.
So we're hoping that we can continueto find support or sponsorship
like that, to continue this programin the future. Very much so.
So thanks Karen for sharing. Absolutely.
(22:10):
Thanks for having me, everybody.Thanks for all the hard work.
I'm looking forward
to seeing how this program developsover the course of the year.
Fantastic.
So there's another one in the booksfor the Nation's Blind podcast,
more of the phenomenal workthat the National Federation of the Blind
is doing to make sure that blind peoplecan live the lives we want.
You know what, Melissa? What Anil?
You can live the life you want.
(22:32):
Blindness is not what holds you back.
♪♪♪ We’d love your feedback.
Email podcast@nfb.org.
Or call 410-659-9314,
Extension 2444.
♪♪♪ Welcome to the Nation's
Blind Podcast, presentedby the National Federation of the Blind,
the transformative membership and advocacy
organization of blind americans.
Live the Life You Want.
Hello and welcome to the Nation'sBlind Podcast.
I'm Melissa Riccobono, and I'm here with?
Anil Lewis and I'm here with MelissaRiccobono.
(00:24):
Hi, how are you, Anil?
I'm doing great.
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast.
Welcome, fall is here.
Yes, it is. And winter is coming.
Yeah, that that is true.
That is true.
How is the weather in Atlanta? It's nice.
We're actually having a fall.We got some 70 degree weather here.
When I was up in Baltimore just last week,
I think we went from eightiesin Baltimore to 60.
We did. And it was 48 this morning.
(00:46):
Oh, my poor children going to schoolwere all saying, oh, it's so cold.
But anyway, it's supposed to be,
I think, seventiesby the end of the week up here too.
So, yeah.
So your kids are going to school?
Kids are going to school.
Real nice segue there, Melissa.Yeah, well, thank you.
You know, I'm a professional. Yeah.
Don’t try this at home, kids.
Yeah. Yes.
(01:06):
We're going to be talking about educationtoday.
Kids going to school. Yeah. Yeah.
But but not just kids going to school,but their teachers more more broadly.
And what we do in the National Federationof the Blind
to help with the educationof blind students in all sorts of ways.
And we've talked a lot about our NFBBraille Enrichment for Literacy
and Learning Academyand how that helps kids very directly,
(01:29):
either with the in-home editionor with in-person NFB BELL.
So many of our programsreally work directly with the students,
and that's really good. You know,you can get that one on one impact.
It's a lot like thatstarfish story, right?
And the guy keeps throwing starfish in.
It makes a difference on that one.
But I think the programwe're going to be discussing
today is one of those exponential-impactprograms.
(01:50):
Yeah, and I think we have to lookto those exponential-impact programs
so that our impact can be broaderand broader and broader
because it is great to make a differenceone kid at a time.
And it's especially rewarding
when you're in those programsand you see those specific kids.
Absolutely. But then we want more.
What is it that we would need in order
(02:12):
not to have to have an NFB BELLor maybe to have it, but to have it be...
a complement? Yeah.
I think that this program
that we're going to talk about talks a lotabout those types of questions.
And we have a special guest here with us.
Do want to introduce her, Anil,because I can never remember her title.
Sure, because the suspense is killing me.
What is this program they speak of?
(02:33):
Absolutely. Yes.
We’re joinedby the coordinator of education programs
for the National Federation of the Blind,Miss Karen Anderson.
Hi, Karen.
Hey, everybody. How's it going?
Going well, how are you doing? Great.
Have you recovered? Ah, no!
Just for our listeners' sake,
we just finished a weekend of workingwith our, da da da da...
(02:53):
Teachers of Tomorrow.
Tell us a little bit about Teacherof Tomorrow.
Teachers of Tomorrow is a program aimed
at connecting early careerteachers of blind students
with the lived experiencesof blind people.
So what we hear a lotand what we know is that often
these teacherswho get their certifications in teaching
(03:16):
blind students have no real connectionwith blind adults.
The first connection they ever makewith blind people is with their students.
And so there's no real understanding
of how a blind personmight truly accomplish certain things,
but they also don't have the opportunityto see blind people truly
(03:37):
being successful and living the livesthat they want to live.
And so we want to make surethat teachers of blind students
have the opportunity to get connectedwith blind people and more importantly,
with the organized blind movement,so that when they have a student who says,
"I want to march in the marching band"or "I want to be a hairdresser,"
or "I want to be an auto mechanic,"they have a group of blind people
(04:01):
they can reach out to to say,All right, is this possible?
And how is this possible?
And can you connect mewith somebody who's doing it?
And as we say, as an organization,so much of what we do is about shifting
those expectations.
And if you have a person who'sbeen trained to work with blind students.
Right.
And give them a desireto reach their full potential,
how do you do that
when you don't really understandthe full capacity of blind individuals?
(04:22):
I mean, it's something to be said aroundhow the teachers
we work with shift a paradigmof expectation for their students.
Based on what you just said,
being in touch with them, being aroundsuccessful blind adults.
Yeah, and it's so true.
And I was just thinking back,you know, as as far as just my experiences
as a blind kid, I remember, number one,my teacher of blind students, told me
(04:44):
I just could never be an artist
because nobody could really understandor tell what I was trying to draw.
And that was it.
You know, I was in first or second gradeand it wasn't like,
let's try to get you into sculpture.
Let's give you some tactiledrawing tools. No, no.
It was just. No, no.
As a blind person,you just can't do this. Yeah.
In my sophomore year,I really wanted to be a music therapist.
(05:05):
And to her credit, my teacher of blindstudents did find a musical therapist
that I could job shadowfor a part of a day at a nursing home,
which wasn't exactly the populationthat I wanted to work with,
but at least I sort of got a feelingfor what she did.
And at the end of that,the teacher said, You know,
I just really didn'tthink you could be a music therapist.
But, you know, now maybe, maybe you could.
(05:26):
And I mean, that changed her mind.
But I just thought,what made you think I couldn't?
And so I just think that there'sso many things that happen like that
every day to the adultsthat really do want
what's best for blind kidsand yet have been conditioned by society,
by their own experiences, bymaybe possibly their training in some ways
(05:48):
to have kind of those low expectationsand not really to understand
what blind people truly can door how they can do that.
Karen, is that kind of whywe need this program, do you think?
I think that's a big part of it.
It was really interesting this weekendto hear the teachers talk about what
they didn't feel they were providedin some of their training programs.
(06:10):
They really didn't have the opportunityto connect with blind people.
So even if they have that ingrainedunderstanding,
like gut-level understandingof the capabilities of blind people,
it's so much harder to express that
to your students and to keep living thatwith your students.
When you don't have the opportunityto see blind people
(06:32):
living the lives that they want.
And when you are surrounded by,I guess, a structure
that really doesn't believein blind people, the education system
is not really set up for blind studentsto succeed in a lot of ways.
Yeah, I found it very interesting hearingsome of the struggles of the teachers.
But really quickly, to go backto what Melissa was saying by her story,
(06:53):
I find it very interestingthat you hear the stories of how,
you know, these blind studentsthat are doing something excellent.
Right.
And unfortunately, they're deemed to bethe exception of the group.
But that's just a manifestationof what happens
when you put an appropriateeducational environment together
that allows them to tap into their talentsjust like any other student.
I think more and more blindpeople can really aspire to higher goals,
(07:17):
and I think that that was really obvious.
Here.
Let's start down this path
as we work with our Teacher of Tomorrow,this new cohort that we just brought in,
it was very tellingvery early on in the introductions
that many of them had already kindof recognized the shortcomings
of the preparationthat they've had in order to do this job.
And I think that that speaks, you know,first and foremost to the disconnect,
(07:39):
right, of blind people being involvedand being engaged with that work.
So I think that that kickedthe meeting off to me
with, oh, wow, we're going to be in fora really interesting ride this weekend.
Yeah, it's definitely somethingthat I noticed when we were doing
introductions, how many people recognizedwhat they had not gotten
in their teacher preparation programsand had really come seeking that.
(08:03):
And I will say Anil a lot of thatcame out in their interviews,
which is why they were chosento be a part of this cohort,
because they really were seekingthat lived understanding.
They really were seeking that communityand they were seeking
to be a part of somethingbigger than themselves.
I think that's really, really powerful.
That's rewarding.
And I know in previous podcastswe've had, Melissa's actually interviewed
(08:26):
some of the teachers of blind studentsthat have worked with her children
and I think that just in her example,right, of at least taking advantage
of the opportunityto do some music therapy for seniors,
if you can take some of these teachersand in her case, a lot of them
were just mainstream teachers.
But you can kind of educate themabout the tools and also kind of alter
their expectations.
A lot of what we need to happenhappens organically.
(08:47):
I don't want to makeit sound like it's that simple
because the program had a lotmore components this weekend that I think
were invaluable, and that was demonstratedin the survey results we received.
Well, just one more quick thingabout the teachers.
I think it's also really importantand I think really where the education
system fails most often is for those kidsthat have some residual vision.
(09:09):
Yeah.
Because society just wants those kidsto use that vision they have.
And these teachers really understandthat it's not
what a child can see, it'swhat they can do.
And they need to be able to useall of their tools
to be able to do all different things.
And sometimes it'sthat you have to plant those seeds
(09:31):
and make them realizethat those tools really can be helpful.
And we did have some discussionsabout that
in the very short time that I was ableto be with the teachers, things like,
you know, making sure that a child hasa Braille display to hook up to a computer
and see that doing code for cybersecurity might be made a lot easier
if they use Braille to check for errorsthan trying to listen to
(09:53):
everything with a screen reader, you know,a very practical way to use Braille.
And maybe they're notreading novels in Braille,
but at least they're using itin that part of their job to be efficient.
And I think that's really important.
So I just kind of wanted to get Karen'sthoughts on that a little bit,
and then I think we should definitely go
into the survey resultsbecause I'm really interested
in what the teachers had to say as well.
(10:14):
I think one thing that stood out to me
was that some of our teachers really doget that on a gut level.
Melissa, what you were saying about visionnot being the most effective sense
for these kidsand them already feeling discouraged
or like they're the odd man outor the odd teacher out
because they are pushing for some of thesethings and being pushed back against,
(10:37):
you know, hearing other teachers,other people in the learning environment
saying, oh, no, no,this child should be using their vision.
This child should be learning visually.
And I felt a lot of hope from them hearingus say, we will come in and help you.
We will come in and help advocate with youand for this child.
(10:57):
We will come in as blind people.
No, we're not like those paid advocateswhere we have a vested interest
in getting paid.
We will come in and help you advocatefor the best interests of the child.
And the whole disconnect between,you know, the students with low vision,
you know, who have some residual sight
and the necessary toolsthey need to be competitive
in the education environmentreally came out
(11:19):
in our discussion of the terminologyand the use of the word blind.
You know,
I thought that that was just goingto be kind of a simple little presentation
aroundgetting them to understand what we meant.
But it turned to such a rich discussion,you know, around the use of language
and how it impacts the blind studentsthat they work with.
Yeah. It was powerful.
It was powerful to have them sort of
(11:40):
start to unpack their feelingsabout the word blind.
And again,this is the start of a yearlong program.
They're going to be participating inevents.
This was the kick offevent this last weekend of September
or first weekend of October, depending onhow you want to read the calendar.
But then they're going to have monthlyvirtual sessions where they talk with us
(12:03):
and with other blind peopleand members of the Federation.
They're going to have three more in-personsessions.
They're going to come to our Washingtonseminar.
They're going to get to goto Ruston, Louisiana
to visit one of the best training centersfor blind people in the world.
As well as the Professional Developmentand Research Institute on Blindness.
And they're also going to get to go
to our 2023national convention in Houston, Texas.
(12:26):
Wow, I want to, I want to participate.
I know we're not even done Anil,because they're also going to get paired
with mentors, mentor teachersof blind students who have been doing this
for a little while.
Some of our mentors were membersof the 2021 Teachers of Tomorrow cohort.
So they're coming back aroundand now being mentors.
(12:46):
I think that's really cool.
But they're going to be mentoredby teachers who now understand the value
of being connected to the blind movement.
Our movement of blind people.
And I think all of those pieces together,I really can't wait to see where
these teachers are in a yearand I can't wait to continue
(13:06):
to have them be involvedin so many of our other programs.
Yeah. Yeah.
And what might they help us create?
Absolutely. In the future?
I mean, you know, it's
one thing to keep the programswe already have going, but these teachers
could have the next really big idea thatwill help us jump on to something else.
I believe that.
Maybe more early childhood programsor maybe more,
(13:28):
I don't know what,but that's exciting to me as well.
Yeah.
One of the other thingsthat kind of stood out was
we only had them for those two daysand we were able to share, you know,
some personal stories.
That also kind of came out in the survey
as something that they feltwas really beneficial.
Hearing the lived experiences of blindpeople, that validates kind of really
kind of our catalystfor even starting this particular program.
(13:49):
So I really like that.
But what was really telling for meand I'm looking at the agenda
and we have these experiences,we're going to teach them how to pour
you know, going to teach them how to chop
and we're going to teach them,you know, how to carry a tray.
And use a cane.
And you're thinking.
Okay, the cane I knew, you know,because that's, you know,
orientation mobility is a certification,the whole deal.
(14:11):
You think, okay,that's really something substantive.
But I'm like, really,I'm going to teach them
how to pour, we're going to try to chop
and we're going to teach youhow to carry a tray.
And man, they came backfrom that experience so enlightened
and it was really kind of interestingwith respect to what we kind of deem
as fairly simple day-to-day thingsand I think this is
what was really helpful for me,that we take for granted,
(14:33):
really helped them understandnot the quote/unquote challenges
that blind people face to do those things,but the real true alternative ways
of using other informationthrough our other senses
to get those fundamental things done.
And if we can get them to understand that,then hopefully we can get to
where Melissa was just talking about,
get them inspired to help us figure outwhat is that next innovative program.
(14:55):
And I just want to point out, they did allthese things under learning shades. Yes.
Because we know that using learning shadesis the best way to teach
non-visual techniques and to trulymake them feel like they are effective.
We know that they're effective.
But if you're still trying to usethat residual vision that you have,
it's a lot harderto feel confident in those techniques.
(15:16):
And I thought it was really powerfuland telling that on the surveys
we had a couple of teachers say,"You could have had us move
between stationswith our learning shades on.
We wouldn't have minded." Yeah,that's one of them.
Wonder if that would’ve been a consensusfor the whole group. Yeah.
But I thought it was really coolto see how much
they really didtake that experience wholeheartedly
(15:37):
committing to that and recognizingwhy it's important.
I'm looking forward to doing more of thosenon visual skills experiences
with these teachersover the next three in-person sessions,
because I think having more experienceslike that will help them recognize
how powerful it can be for their studentsto have those non visual skills.
(15:59):
And I mean the ones that you chose areso practical, you know, obviously
the cane,I mean that just speaks for itself.
But pouring, I mean, studentsdo need to know how to pour.
Chopping.
I mean, a lot of students don't getthat chance to work in the kitchen at all.
And so giving them that confidence.And carrying a tray?
There is so much to be said for a kidbeing able
to go through the lunch line on their own,carry their own tray.
(16:21):
That's a rite of passage.
That is something that's so important.
You know, going to the mall,to a food court with your friends,
being able to carry that tray,going to a college dining hall, being able
to carry your tray, all of those timesthat that's just such a practical skill.
And those are so oftenthe skills, especially right now
in our fast paced schools,which are just so focused on
(16:44):
so often teaching for the test,and that's it.
The things that people just say, well,that's just too hard, you know,
we'll have somebody go through the linefor you or whatever else.
I mean, I think those things arewhat can make the most difference
when you're actually expecting the studentto do something like everybody else.
Like my experience in biology in collegewhen we were dissecting
(17:06):
and I was just sure that my TA wasjust going to want me to have my partner
cut the rat open and the TA’s like,nope, here's your scissors.
I’m like, but ...I can't see!
Nope, you're just going to break the ribslike everybody else.
And that was,that is one of my best experience.
I mean, it was gross. Good for you.
But it was,she expected no different of me
(17:27):
than any other students in the class.
And she's like,you know, if you make a mistake
and you cut into something you shouldn't,
then we'll get somebody else'sand we'll show you what you need.
Like somebody elsemight cut into the wrong thing to.
But if you do this and this, you'renot going to cut into the wrong things.
And more and more,if teachers can give students
those high expectationsand those messages, even if they seem
(17:48):
really small growing up,they just turn into huge, huge things.
Yeah.
And whether these teachers
were actually prohibiting studentsfrom doing those things because of
well, I'll say it, a bit of fear.
But their lack of knowledgeabout that, this can be done.
They left with the,
oh yeah, I'm going to go backand yeah, they're going to carry the tray
and oh yeah, I'm going to, you know,so really kind of
(18:09):
whether they were prohibitive in the past,they're definitely going to be proactive
in the future to really, you know,creating more of those opportunities.
And even beyond that,holding their blind students accountable
for doing those fundamental things,which I think is important.
Anything else, Karen,that stood out to you in the survey?
I know we need to wrap up soon, but,you know,
I justI think we could talk all day about this.
I just I think I knewwe'd hit on some really powerful skills
(18:33):
and really important thingswhen after the second meal
that we had together, which was breakfast,two teachers were walking back
to the conference room with meand asked me like,
how can I teach my studentshow to carry a tray?
How can I teach my studentshow to do this?
You know, I really wasn't sure thatthis was age appropriate, but you know,
they're in middle school and, you know,it seems like you do it really well.
(18:56):
And it was awesome to be able to say,well, actually we're going to spend
a whole bunch of time on that.
So that was really cool.
And I think just the opportunityto have that social time,
some meals and some timeto just conversate with blind adults
was really powerfuland time to hear from some blind students.
They got to hearfrom a high school student
(19:18):
and then a recent college graduateabout the things that worked for them
and about the things that they really wishtheir teachers had done.
And that was really powerful for themalso.
Yeah.
And you're right, Melissa,we could talk about this all day,
but I feel we would be remissif we didn't focus on something
that Karen mentionedin her initial description of the program.
We actually had some time.
We explained to themhow we could help them
(19:39):
be their best advocate for their studentsbecause it was obvious
that they had the heart, right,and they wanted the best.
But sometimes, you know,they're in positions
that prohibit them from really being kindof the more assertive advocates.
So I think having that discussionwith them around how we can collaborate
and be partners and kind of sharethat responsibility together
toward the best interest of the studentwas also extremely powerful.
(19:59):
They they in my opinion, seemedvery pleased that that potential existed.
Yeah, pleased and surprised.
Do you charge?
You don't,you don't charge anything? Nope,
we do it out of the goodness of our heart.
I didn’t think NFB playednice with others.
Yeah.
And hopefully that will help themlook at things
differently when advocates docome into the IEP meetings.
(20:22):
Because I think it's really important
for blind students and familiesof blind students to have advocates,
other blind people with them in their IEPmeetings, even if you know
all of the things,even if you feel like you have
all of the philosophy and all of that,I feel like it's really important
and powerful to have another blind personat that table with you,
somebody who is able to look at thingsand give some reminders of,
(20:46):
hey, this is age appropriateand someone who is a little bit more able
to say some of the thingsthat that might be hard for the parents
to say because they have to workwith the teachers on an ongoing basis.
And hard for the teachers to saybecause they have that connection
with the school systemand because this is their livelihood.
So hopefully the conversationthat we had about being advocates
(21:06):
will help them feel more comfortableand at ease
when there are advocates in the IEP roomand in other spaces.
Absolutely. And that's what we said.
We're not here to you know, we're hereto praise you if you're doing good stuff.
So don't feel likewe're just going to jump down your throat
and talk about all the stuffthat's going wrong by any means.
You know, we're here for you
(21:27):
and we're here for that child,and we're one more person on that team.
PresidentRiccobono did a great job of the intro.
He kind of laid laid it down, really,you know, admitted that,
you know, the education system is failing
our blind kids,but we're not blaming them for it.
We're trying to help thembecome part of the solution with us.
And I think that's powerful.
I also think it's important to statethat this program
(21:48):
is possible due to a gracious giftfrom the Pfeiffer Foundation.
They originally funded the first cohortthat Karen mentioned,
and because it was mostly virtual,they gave us an extension
to use the rest of the fundingto actually host this second cohort.
So we're hoping that we can continueto find support or sponsorship
like that, to continue this programin the future. Very much so.
So thanks Karen for sharing. Absolutely.
(22:10):
Thanks for having me, everybody.Thanks for all the hard work.
I'm looking forward
to seeing how this program developsover the course of the year.
Fantastic.
So there's another one in the booksfor the Nation's Blind podcast,
more of the phenomenal workthat the National Federation of the Blind
is doing to make sure that blind peoplecan live the lives we want.
You know what, Melissa? What Anil?
You can live the life you want.
(22:32):
Blindness is not what holds you back.
♪♪♪ We’d love your feedback.
Email podcast@nfb.org.
Or call 410-659-9314,
Extension 2444.
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