January 24, 2024 • 58 mins
This week’s episode of The Liquid Trucking Podcast drives us down the highway of purple haze, as we discuss the changing landscape of marijuana legalization and its effect on the trucking industry. First, we’ll talk with Recruiter Nick Meyer, who will help us understand what a recruiter is looking for when new drivers are applying, and how various drug and alcohol violations affect that process. We’ll discuss some new regulations from the FMCSA on prohibited status, and finally, Safety Consultant from Safety Management Services Company Garett Larson joins the show along with VP of Safety and HR Jason Eisenman to talk about the changing landscape of marijuana legalization and the safety aspects involved.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What's good out there?
Liquid Drivers and Liquid staff.
Welcome into the Liquid Trucking Podcast episode 11.
I'm your host,
Marcus Bridges.
Appreciate you taking the time to join us today and make sure for my sake and yours that you click that subscribe button,
it won't cost you one red cent,
but it'll let you know every single time that we drop a new episode,
(00:23):
which for those of you that don't know already is Wednesday morning at 5 a.m. central time bright and early so that it's ready for your daily run.
Now,
today's episode is concerning something that uh some people in the industry might call a bit of a touchy subject.
Today,
we're talking about marijuana or cannabis uh in the transportation industry and that's kind of a broad topic we're gonna hit on it from all different segments.
(00:53):
Uh We've got a really cool guest coming up here a little bit later on who is a safety expert.
He dealt with drug tests in the past.
And uh we're gonna get all sorts of great information from him.
His name is Garrett Larson.
By the way,
we'll also talk to Jason Eisenman while uh Garrett's on the phone with us.
So we get that hr angle of uh cannabis and trucking and also going to hear from recruiter Nick Meyer for a bit of the recruiting angle and there's more than that as well.
(01:24):
But uh before we get started today,
I just wanted to kind of jump into a few of the things that you might hear in this episode and think what uh first of all,
you heard me refer to it as cannabis and marijuana,
the terms are totally interchangeable for those of you that uh haven't studied up on it.
It's,
it's one and the same,
the cannabis thing in my vocabulary comes from the fact that I actually worked for five years in the medical and legally recreational cannabis industry here in Oregon.
(01:55):
Um I did a little bit of what they call bud tending,
which is just like a bartender except for you're on the,
you're the retail facing guy.
I was the one that was helping you for about a year find what you wanted and I dealt with a lot of medical patients rather than uh recreational patients.
I was the dispensary manager actually,
when we switched over from medical licensure to recreational licensure.
(02:20):
So I am familiar with the red tape and regulation that comes along with the recreationally legal cannabis industry and it's really a state to state thing at this point federally.
This is still a schedule one substance which means if you get caught with it crossing state lines by a federal officer,
(02:41):
they will pin you to the wall.
Ok.
If you get caught at,
by TS A,
in a state where it's not legal,
they will pin you to the wall.
Uh,
but then again,
you might be in a state that's legal like Oregon where ts a agents,
if you have what they call a user amount,
which is just enough for you to enjoy and uh not,
(03:02):
you're not planning on going out and selling it by the brick.
Uh,
ts A agents here in Oregon,
at least in my experience have shown the,
the,
the proclivity to kind of look away a little bit or turn the other cheek,
um,
in many places,
what their bylaws read is that they will refer you to local law enforcement and it just depends on whether or not local law enforcement feels like dealing with it that day.
(03:27):
However,
there are places like uh Chicago o'hare Airport where they'll just cuff you and throw you in prison for the rest of your life.
Look,
it's a joke.
It's a little bit tongue in cheek.
I think what I'm trying to highlight here is the fact that you probably don't know how each state wants to deal with it.
Ok.
In Oregon,
Washington,
California,
(03:47):
you can walk down the street,
smoke in a joint and nobody is going to blink an eye at you.
In fact,
they might just think you're local instead of a tourist.
However,
as I've said,
I know many states out there where if you get caught walking down the street smoking a joint,
your ass is headed to the clink.
So we're gonna talk about all of that today.
But mostly,
(04:08):
and,
and exclusively,
we're going to focus on how these differences in laws from state to state affect the transportation industry and our drivers out there,
we want everybody to stay safe.
And uh one thing I can tell you is that uh there's been a lot of drug tests that have come up positive for cannabis according to uh the FM CS A's drug and alcohol clearing test this or clearing house.
(04:36):
Excuse me.
Uh I have some stats here from the US Department of Transportation that show me in 2020.
Yeah,
out of all of the drug tests that were administered,
there were 29,511 that pop positive for cannabis.
Uh 31,085 in 2021.
In 2022 people were partying a little bit.
(04:56):
In 2022 we had 40,916 drug tests positive for cannabis.
And in 2023 that number fell off quite a bit down to 32,293.
What does that mean?
Well,
believe it or not,
you know,
you hear a lot about truckers and meth and truckers and cocaine and these stimulants that keep you awake for hours on end.
(05:18):
Um,
marijuana,
cannabis absolutely trumps them when it comes to positive drug tests.
For instance,
in 2023 I told you we had 32,200 positive tests for cannabis and marijuana.
Uh cocaine,
8883 methamphetamine only 3880.
(05:38):
So maybe it's time that we leave that stigma behind.
I don't think there's nearly as many truck drivers out there doing meth,
uh or at least doing meth and getting caught as what there used to be.
That number's gone way down over the years again.
In 2022 it was a party year.
Everything was higher in 2022.
(05:59):
We're gonna talk more about these stats as the episode unfolds and figure out exactly how we navigate these waters within the transportation industry.
It's episode 11 of the Liquid Trucking Podcast and we're kicking it off right now.
Welcome to the Gold Standard of podcast for the gold standard of drivers.
This is the Liquid Trucking podcast with your host,
(06:22):
Marcus Bridges.
Next up here on the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
I've got recruiter Nick Meyer on the line.
Nick.
Thank you so much for being here,
my friend.
Good to be here.
Now,
we're talking about uh the devil's lettuce today,
uh The,
the green lightning,
(06:42):
whatever you wanna call it.
Uh There's a lot of states out there that are legalizing or decriminalizing cannabis,
marijuana right now and uh,
that provides a little bit of a confusing landscape for truck drivers.
Uh,
there is one really good adage to stick by and that's just,
just say no,
I mean,
the one that they taught us all back in grade school when we were taking dare classes,
(07:04):
right.
But,
uh,
obviously there's a lot of people that try to use this stuff for medicinal purposes and what have you.
Uh,
so,
you know,
we're talking about the gray areas today here,
Nick and I wondered as a recruiter,
what are you looking for as far as,
as a recruiter is concerned when it comes to,
uh,
positive drug tests or,
(07:25):
uh,
refused drug tests,
anything like that?
Are those drivers that might come to you with those types of things on their record automatically disqualified or is there a way for them to get around and get back to driving after something like that?
Yeah.
So it's,
it's becoming a much larger issue than it ever has been with the FM CS A.
(07:47):
Um,
you know,
I mean,
in 2022 there were almost 41,000 positive tests.
Um,
and it,
and that's 32% more than 2021.
So the trend is going in the wrong direction.
So when I'm recruiting,
you know,
there's a few questions that I'd have to ask if they did have a positive,
(08:10):
uh,
one if they've had their return to duty testing completed and then their program completed as well.
So you have to be able to test uh,
negative to be able to come back to work.
But then they typically assign you 1 to 2 or three years of testing as well.
(08:32):
Um That is in addition to our testing as a trucking company that we have to do for,
uh,
the dot So it's a big problem now and it's only going to get bigger.
Um,
now as far as our company,
um,
you know,
if someone has completed all of the steps and their 12 or three years of testing and then we are definitely open to looking at them to drive for us.
(09:02):
If you're a driver with us,
you know,
you have to follow the testing and follow the rules.
You know,
our biggest challenge or our biggest focus is to help with the misinformation with our drivers so that they can be aware of that,
even though it says it doesn't have THC in it,
(09:23):
there's a lot of CBD products um that are legal in states where the devil's lettuce is not legal.
And so they think they're safe and they just aren't any bit of THC that comes up positive in A dot Test when you have a A CD L,
that's a fail,
(09:43):
it's not a certain amount.
Um It's any amount.
So that's our biggest challenge right now is fighting the 38 states that it's legal for med use in the 21 states that it's legal for recreational and just how common it is.
You know,
(10:03):
the federal government has not been their rules at all on this.
Right.
They're still exactly what they have been.
There's been no movement on it whatsoever.
And,
uh,
as somebody with a little bit of experience,
I don't know if you knew this about me,
Nick,
but I did work in the legal cannabis industry here in Oregon for about five years and I,
I will give you all drivers that are listening to this one very easy piece of advice to remember when it comes to CBD CBD products federally have a 0.3% allowable THC uh amount within them.
(10:41):
So if they're testing a product for CBD and it has a 0.3% or less THC in it,
that's ok.
They can sell that on the open market in a state where cannabis is illegal.
They can still sell that in some cases that does not mean that you as a driver can take that substance whether it be uh you know,
(11:02):
an edible or smokable or,
or whatever uh and not test positive for cannabis.
I it will still show up even if it's that small,
I'm not gonna get into how long it stays in your system and all the different ways that you can try to duck these because these tests need to be honest.
And unfortunately,
if you've got mixed up with that CBD in the past,
(11:22):
it could have cost you uh uh uh basically a positive test.
And,
and I think there's a lot of um misinformation like you mentioned out there about that,
a lot of people think that this stuff is just completely independent of THC and it really isn't correct,
correct.
And,
you know,
it's not like we just started testing for marijuana and other drugs as well.
(11:46):
But with FM CS A,
with them starting to track this and us having to report every positive,
what this has done is,
it's created a report card of past drug use and that is good for me as a recruiter because I want to be able to see how someone has behaved in the past three or four or five years because prior to that,
(12:11):
it was just unknown.
Um,
you know,
but what that has done it in a market where the driver pool has been low is,
it's knocked out a lot more people with that reporting.
I mean,
over 100,000 tests positive since this inception,
(12:32):
but that's 100,000 additional drivers that are flagged in the system,
uh,
that we never had before.
So,
you know,
the biggest thing that I think any company can do is help their drivers understand that if you have a class A,
it doesn't matter,
(12:52):
you can't risk it with some of the CBD products out there that are claiming to not have THC when it's just not true and it's hurt a lot of guys and I'm not saying that there's plenty of guys that,
uh,
have just hung out with their buddies and smoked pot.
Um,
you know,
that's happened as well.
(13:13):
Uh,
but they have to take,
take into consideration that,
that,
that class a,
it really restricts you from,
uh,
from what everybody else is almost able to do and rightfully so,
you know,
it's definitely not something,
I mean,
you hear the stigma all the time about truckers out there on meth or on cocaine trying to keep themselves awake?
(13:36):
Well,
let's,
let's juxtapose that with a driver that's uh just blasted out of his mind on weed.
He's probably not paying attention to everything that he needs to concentrate on.
Uh I wanted to ask you,
Nick about uh refusals to take the test.
Now,
does that show up as basically a failed test or is there a different kind of categorization for refusing your test?
(14:00):
Yeah.
So that,
that is,
that's just the same as testing positive.
Yeah.
Correct.
You know,
it doesn't help you in any way.
If you refuse to take a test,
we still have to report it as a refusal and they count that as a positive U A uh and it affects you exactly the same.
(14:23):
Got it.
So just take the test because even if you fail it,
uh your results are the exact same at that point.
So refusing isn't,
isn't doing you any good?
I'm looking at uh the,
the clearinghouse,
uh,
the FM CS A clearing house right now,
some of the statistics,
uh,
the drug and alcohol clearing house more,
uh,
more specifically.
(14:44):
And I think it's funny because I,
I do hear all the time.
You,
I brought up the stigma with truck drivers on meth,
you know,
west coast turnarounds.
There's a joke in every movie,
uh,
that has to do with anything truck driving about that.
But I'm looking at the numbers from 2023 and I see only 3800 positive tests for methamphetamine and people might go 3800.
(15:07):
That's a,
but not when you stick it up against 32,000 positive tests for cannabis or marijuana.
It's clearly the drug of choice as far as these tests are pointing out,
uh,
far more than any other drug.
In fact,
far more than the next three or four different varieties of drug combined.
(15:27):
Uh,
more positive tests for marijuana.
It is something that,
uh,
obviously there's a little bit of confusion on about,
uh,
about it and you know what's allowable and what's not because I know a lot,
like you said,
not every one of those 32,000 guys just went and smoked a bowl with their buddies.
Uh,
some of these guys were probably,
um,
a little bit surprised at their result,
(15:49):
uh,
because they've been taking CBD Gummies or something like that,
you know.
Yeah.
And it,
and it comes down to,
it's just so common.
Now,
you know,
if they legalize meth,
we would see the same trends and those numbers go up.
Um,
any drug that they legalize will become more common in our day to day lives.
(16:10):
You know,
it doesn't matter where you were,
it's gonna be common and just everywhere.
So,
you know,
but right now marijuana is becoming more and more common and these are the adverse effects to the federal government having laws against something that they're allowing to be legal or the states are.
(16:32):
And so there's,
there's just some disruption there,
but I agree with you on the fact that,
you know,
drive,
just driving high would have horrendous consequences.
It's already dangerous enough to drive sober,
especially in the winter right now.
I mean,
(16:52):
it's just,
it's very dangerous.
Um,
you know,
when you mix semis all on the road with small little cars and families in a minivan,
you need to be alert,
you know,
as clear as you can.
So,
it's just important to spread the information of,
(17:13):
of what product you should avoid and stay away from if you want to keep your C,
your CD L.
I mean,
it's just,
it's cut and dry.
There's no wiggle room here for sure.
Well,
Nick,
this has all been really great information.
I'm gonna let you get back to work.
I know you're a busy guy,
but I really appreciate you stopping by the podcast again and hanging out for a little bit and,
(17:36):
uh,
we'll get you back on here soon.
All right.
All right,
buddy.
Thank you so much.
Appreciate it.
That's Nick Meyer from Liquid Trucking.
Hey,
real quick while we're here and we're talking about the subject matter at hand.
I did want to report something to you that you've probably already heard if you're a driver and definitely already heard if you're a guy like Jason who deals with this type of stuff every single day.
(18:06):
But I figure it's good to get this information out there because these changes with the FM CS A,
uh drug and alcohol clearing house did just happen.
They became,
uh effective on November 18th.
So I'm just gonna read you the short press release here and,
and talk about the changes a little bit because they don't have a lot of time.
Uh,
but it says here that the clearing house return to duty process for CD L drivers has changed a driver with a drug and alcohol program violation is prohibited from performing safety sensitive functions.
(18:38):
That's parts the same including operating CMVS for any dot Regulated employer until the return to duty process is complete.
This is the new part beginning November 18th,
2024.
As part of new federal regulations,
drivers with a prohibited status in FM CS A's drug and alcohol clearing house will lose or be denied their state issued commercial driving privileges.
(19:04):
Now,
I misspoke right off the top and I'm catching that before we go any further here.
This didn't just change November 18th of 2023.
It is a proposed change that will happen.
November 18th,
2024.
I want to make sure we're very clear on that FM CS A recently added a new resource to the clearinghouse learning center that outlines the return to duty process that drivers with a prohibited clearinghouse status must complete so they can get their status back to not prohibited.
(19:33):
There is a link in this uh news release and I went ahead and clicked it.
It takes you over to the drug and alcohol clearings uh house learning center and it says,
are you prohibited from operating a commercial motor vehicle due to a drug and alcohol program violation complete the return to duty process.
Here's how it reiterates the November 18th,
new federal regulations that will take drivers with a prohibited status and uh take away their state issued commercial driving privileges.
(20:02):
Then the next page says,
how do I complete the return to duty process and get back to being not prohibited?
You have to select a substance abuse professional.
You'll be provided a list of professionals from your employer.
Then you get to choose which one you want to go with.
You have to take the return to duty test and you must be sent to the return to duty test by your employer.
(20:23):
You cannot show up and just be like,
hey,
I wanna take it sucks that it's that way.
But that's uh for a reason if you're an owner operator,
uh your designated consortium or third party administrator must send you for this test.
Once you're clearing house status is not prohibited,
you are eligible to resume performing safety sensitive functions.
(20:44):
And it says here,
your status will be updated when your employer enters your negative return to duty test result in the clearinghouse uh to remain in a not prohibited status.
Your employer must complete the follow up test plan with you as specified by the substance abuse professional,
which must include a minimum of six unannounced follow up tests in the 1st 12 months of returning to performing safety sensitive functions.
(21:09):
So there you have it.
Uh some changes coming,
obviously,
your state issued license is going to get taken away if you end up in a prohibited status or if you don't have one yet,
you will not be permitted to get one.
So that's pretty much the tall and the short of it.
I told you I was gonna keep it short.
I kept it as short as I could head on over to FM CS a.org and click on the clearinghouse section.
(21:34):
Uh There is tons of information over there for you.
Uh If you have any questions,
Jason Eisenman is your dude,
make sure to call him over at the Platts Smith terminal.
Let's get back to it next up here on the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
(21:56):
I've got a couple of gentlemen,
joining me to talk about the topic at hand.
It's Vice President of Safety and Hr Jason Eisenman from Liquid Trucking.
Jason,
how are you doing today?
Doing good.
Always good to be back.
Thanks for being here and joining us for the first time.
We've got Garrett Larson.
Now,
Garrett is a safety consultant for safety management services company.
Garrett.
(22:16):
Really appreciate the time.
Thanks for being here.
Happy and excited to be here.
Can you tell me a little bit about what being a safety consultant for safety management services company entails?
So safety management services company is actually owned by an insurance company called Cottingham and Butler,
Cottingham and Butler insures uh multiple different uh entities,
(22:37):
primarily trucking businesses.
There's some manufacturing that goes with that.
So what a safety consultant does um is I go in and I look at companies and compare kind of what they're doing with the expectations of their insurance company and kind of try to help people uh buff up their safety program,
so to speak.
Well,
perfect.
(22:58):
You're gonna be the ideal guest for today's topic because uh what we're talking about does definitely have to do with some safety concerns.
Um And,
and that is basically the the changing landscape of marijuana and or cannabis,
whatever you prefer to call it,
uh legalization and decrime across the United States.
Now,
obviously,
(23:18):
we all know the federal government has not budged at all on this,
this is a schedule one substance.
Um,
but in talking with you,
Jason,
we've kind of,
uh,
kicked this idea around because you don't really feel like this is talked about enough within the industry,
do you?
I don't,
I think that it is a really big topic that's kind of like hiding behind a bush right now and it,
(23:42):
it can affect,
uh,
a,
a trucking company,
uh,
an insurance company,
you know,
like Garrett's that he works with and all the trucking companies that he works with and all the drivers that work here,
you know,
on such a really big level because our,
our drivers and my passion lies with the fact that if they have,
you know,
a testing that's marijuana positive,
(24:05):
they,
they have such a road to get back to work that,
you know,
uh that the government puts in place through the return to duty process and then,
you know,
possibly stack that with the fact that maybe they got into an accident and that's how we found out that they were positive for marijuana and that could be really bad because then,
(24:28):
uh as Garrett will also agree that insurance companies get hit with large lawsuits along with trucking companies like ourselves.
You know,
we're partially self funded and the,
the lawyers,
the plaintiff lawyers out there use those positive tests for marijuana to really exploit those awards in court.
(24:48):
So it's a,
it's a really big deal on many levels.
Have you seen a lot of,
uh,
legislation like that or not legislation but litigation.
Sorry Garrett.
Uh,
in your line of work for,
well,
concerning,
uh,
marijuana.
Of course,
I mean,
anytime there is a claim,
so when you hear me talking about and you're gonna hear me talk about it in terms of the claim,
(25:08):
anytime we have a claim where there is a positive drug or alcohol test,
that is going to dictate a lot about how that claim is going to play out in terms of dollars and cents.
So whether that affects the,
the company who's paying their insurance premiums or the insurance company all the way on up to um the courts themselves because a lot of the times these are litigated in court and anytime that you have a positive drug or uh alcohol test,
(25:38):
you,
you,
you're really increasing the value of where that claim is gonna go in a,
in a,
in a negative way for a lot of companies and you're kind of already seeing,
I don't know if you guys have seen it,
but you're kind of already seeing an an increase in insurance premiums in the,
in the private automobile sector.
You know,
everybody's insurance rates seem to be going up.
Well,
(25:59):
when there are accidents,
right?
And when those accidents cost more money that gets spread out across insurance,
right?
You kind of gotta think about it as a big umbrella.
So as these claims um happen and as verdicts get bigger and bigger and bigger.
So does the cost for companies like liquid trucking to,
to pay their insurance premiums,
(26:19):
you know,
and maintain a competitive,
you know,
pay for drivers because you know,
money,
money always comes from somewhere for sure.
And you know,
in speaking to um that,
you know,
you're saying it increased insurance rates.
I my my sister is my insurance agent and it was awkward at Christmas dinner.
I'll tell you that much because I keep getting these letters and the rates just keep going up like you're saying.
(26:42):
And,
uh Jason,
you mentioned,
you know,
it's not really talked about enough.
I,
I'm,
I'm sitting here right now looking at the drug and alcohol clearing house stats from the US Department of Transportation,
uh in concert with the FM CS A and since January of 2020 they have identified cannabis or marijuana in a drug test,
(27:05):
positively 100 and 33,805 times.
The next closest substance to that has only been identified 36,500 times.
I think that that right there paints the picture for why we're even having this conversation with all of the changing laws in different states.
And is it legal medically,
(27:25):
is it legal recreationally?
Is it just decriminalized?
Uh It's,
it's very confusing to know what state you're in,
what the rules are.
And,
and I think that it's important that we talk about Jason,
there's kind of a good overarching rule for cannabis and truck drivers and that's just kind of don't do it right.
You can't ever be sure you can't ever be 100% safe.
(27:48):
So,
if you want to protect your CD L license,
you want to protect your truck and the company,
uh,
stay away from the stuff.
I am.
I am I accurate there,
Jason 100%.
In fact,
you know,
it is a law,
uh you know,
it's federal law,
you know,
it is not allowed.
And if you're going to hold and I should caveat that with saying if you're holding a commercial driver's license,
(28:10):
class A B,
et cetera testing positive for marijuana is going to get you reported to the clearing house and as a carrier,
we have certain steps,
we have to follow as a driver,
you have certain steps to follow if you want to get back behind the wheel and that return to duty process can be costly,
can be cumbersome at the house.
You know,
if you're not working and earning money to pay the bills and,
(28:33):
and that's the personal like attachment point for me because I've had um in the last five years,
you know,
we've had two or three guys,
one of them being someone that worked here for a long time,
seven plus years,
get uh you know,
have a te a a positive test and,
and you're like,
man,
what are you doing?
(28:54):
Yeah,
that's your,
that's your livelihood and it's all,
you know,
in,
in reality it's all of our livelihood because we're all at the same place working with the kind of uniform goal of serving our customers.
But if we get ourselves in a predicament with a wreck,
uh,
and then you're positive on top of it,
you're,
you're talking about affecting the possible livelihood of all of us because,
(29:17):
you know,
companies that get hit with those big nuclear verdicts that you hear about and read about,
you know,
multimillion dollars,
1020 $30 million.
You know,
that's the gravity of this situation when you get behind the wheel of a truck and you've,
uh,
done,
uh,
uh,
marijuana of some type and we're going to come back and talk about that because,
(29:39):
you know,
but when you do that,
you're putting a lot of people at risk,
your fellow drivers,
office staff,
uh,
you know,
everybody.
So the,
the,
the availability of it is also the scary part.
And I think Garrett and you would agree that you could drive through the streets of Omaha and we have stores on the corner that sell varying degrees of marijuana that's legal in Nebraska.
(30:05):
And if you go over to Iowa,
varying degrees of marijuana is sold there.
And if you go down into Missouri and out to Colorado,
so where we're located,
it's surrounding us in each state and our drivers are passing through these states that live in these areas.
But the fact of the matter is no matter what state you're in or what store is selling it.
If you have a CD L and you're driving a truck,
(30:26):
it's just a no go zone for sure.
And,
uh,
you know,
something that you kind of touched on a little bit there,
Jason,
uh,
CBD is very popular and,
and for those of you that are wondering,
you know,
why with the onslaught of initials that we're about to get to here with THC and CBD,
uh they're just different compounds in the plant.
And if I sound a little bit educated on this,
(30:46):
it is because I did work in the industry,
uh the legal cannabis industry,
I wasn't selling out of my back uh trunk at a Sears or anything like that.
But uh I was in it for about five years.
I did a lot of research on this stuff and uh CBD Cannabidiol that stuff is legal federally.
It can be shipped in the mail,
you can order it online,
but there is a very important guideline there.
(31:08):
And that is that about 0.3% of THC is allowed in a CBD product.
And that means that even if you're trying to just use CBD,
which is a non psychoactive substance,
a lot of people have um luck with,
you know,
pain or different kinds of ailments that they use it for.
A lot of people think that it's just safe to take that and it's not gonna show up on a drug test.
(31:32):
Well,
let me tell you something from experience if you're taking it and it does have that 0.3% THC it will show up on a drug test and it will ruin your career.
Um,
or at least,
maybe not ruin your career.
But as Jason said,
put everybody else in jeopardy,
including yourself.
Sorry,
I tend to be a little hyperbolic at times.
Jason,
I think that's why they put me in charge of the podcast.
(31:54):
Yeah,
no worries.
I wanted to ask Garrett,
you know,
I was really excited about this talk today.
Uh You know,
because,
and just to give a little more background on Garrett and our relationship with liquid Trucking,
uh Garrett comes in a couple of times a year in person and multiple times a year on phone calls or zoom calls and,
you know,
collectively we're working to make everybody operate safer and think about the,
(32:18):
all those things collectively,
you know,
from equipment to policies and practices.
So when,
when Garrett does that with a whole bunch of other trucking companies,
you know,
I was kind of excited to ask him like,
what are some of the stories you've heard?
The pros and cons,
maybe the good and the bad uh through other trucking companies that are still,
you know,
(32:39):
battling this marijuana transition across America where it's becoming more legal,
but it's still not legal for truck drivers in any capacity.
That's a,
that's a pretty interesting,
um,
conversation.
I love that.
We're having it,
you know,
and Ja Jason,
you nailed it on the head when it comes to marijuana and marijuana products.
(33:00):
As a truck driver.
It is,
it is a,
no,
a,
no,
a no.
And that is because you're,
you're underneath federal regulations that deal with marijuana.
Right.
So,
you're held to a federal standard regardless of the state you're in,
regardless of the county.
Drill it down to the municipality.
It does doesn't matter,
you're held to those federal standards.
(33:21):
So we all know,
you know,
that,
that includes your preemployment drug testing.
That also includes you into the,
the random drug testing for drug and alcohol that is conducted by your company.
Right?
So one thing that I do as for the insurance company,
as I review whether or not a company is compliant with those federal regulations,
I look at the rates for,
(33:45):
uh,
your randoms that the government dictates that you test a certain percentage of your drivers.
Well,
due to a statistic that was shared by Marcus earlier in the increase in marijuana positives and drug testing when I got into trucking,
it was 25% 25% of your fleet needed to be tested for drugs,
(34:05):
uh,
in a few years because of that statistic.
You heard it's now 50%.
You are,
you are drug testing,
50% of your driver pool at any given time when you run a random,
you're in a safety sensitive job function.
And as professional drivers,
you really do have to understand the ramifications of your decisions when you're operating a tractor trailer,
(34:29):
just as any other profession you are expected because you're professionals to hold yourself to a professional standard,
it can affect you as,
as a driver.
So your future as a driver.
Um,
one thing I do as well as I review new hire driver qualification files and I look at your violation history both in your personal vehicle,
(34:54):
uh,
your commercial vehicle.
And one of the expectations that is held for the clients that I work with is they will not hire drivers who have had drug and alcohol issues going back.
Uh,
I believe off the top of my head is seven years.
The clearing house was created to have a database of drug and alcohol violations.
(35:16):
So the,
the days of,
you know,
drug and alcohol violations,
not necessarily following you from employer to employer to employer,
they're gone.
We can track through that query.
We run before hiring you if you've failed a mandated dot Drug test at any time.
So it can follow you professionally and depending on how the,
(35:41):
the violation for,
for,
uh,
say marijuana comes along,
it's a little different when you,
you know,
you,
you have a positive test for a random right opposed to you're pulled over and you receive a,
a violation for operating the tractor under the influence of,
say,
marijuana or even alcohol,
right?
(36:01):
Those types of violations,
those also infect the drivers that you work with and they affect it.
So,
in your company's,
uh,
drug and alcohol CS,
a value,
that's a value that I look at for companies that customers of companies look at and it's a percentile that the government puts together,
that basically tells the world how that company performs in terms of drug and alcohol violations.
(36:28):
When companies show that they have a lot of those violations,
if they don't correct those issues going forward,
it will put them out of business.
And like Jason was saying,
you know,
those types of decisions really do affect more than just you when those CS A scores go up,
whether it's for drug and alcohol,
unsafe driving hours of service,
(36:48):
vehicle maintenance,
when you have those violations,
they cause the government to pull all your fellow drivers in for inspection more often.
So it can really affect you.
You know,
even if you're the guy who's flying on the straight and arrow,
you know,
if you,
if you're kind of in with some people making poor decisions,
(37:09):
you're gonna spend a lot more time,
you know,
under the scrutiny of,
uh,
vehicle enforcement going over your logs,
looking at your truck.
Um,
so if we're talking,
you know,
your career in terms of dollars and cents,
it can end it.
I don't,
you know,
me personally I'm,
I,
I can't afford to go 23,
maybe even four months without getting a paycheck.
(37:31):
But if you get let go,
you know,
from your company for a positive drug test and then you have to go through a S A program and you have to go through drug and alcohol counseling.
And,
I mean,
you know,
it's,
it's no different than ad ui,
I feel that in trucking we're all so terrified of ad U I,
you know,
I don't know if I've ever talked to anybody who holds a CD L that's not terrified to get ad U I because they know it could end their career.
(37:57):
This is the same thing and,
you know,
marijuana is not going away.
Uh It doesn't mean that the federal government will eventually re evaluate how we regulate these things.
But the fact of the matter is currently,
you know,
the expectations are that you do not participate in,
(38:17):
in the use of that substance.
Um And when you do it can,
it can cause,
you know,
a lot of issues for you personally,
as well as,
you know,
your,
your coworkers and the,
the people that rely on them to make money as well.
Sure.
And you can't,
uh you know,
you don't know when it's going to leave your system.
So there's no way to game this system.
I know a lot of people would like to think that they could go to a,
(38:40):
a record store and buy a fluorescent orange drink and drink it and then pass a drug test the next day.
Uh That type of stuff is,
is largely fantasy in my experience.
And I did want to touch on something though Garrett there that you brought up.
What is the difference in the way that the FM CS A looks at AD U I with the CD L as opposed to just a failed test.
(39:03):
Uh Are there different,
um,
criteria for,
for getting back behind the wheel or if you get ad U I for,
with a CD L?
Is that the end of it?
For good?
I'm not familiar with the laws surrounding that.
So educate me a little bit.
Oh,
no,
not necessary.
You know,
it's,
it's not a hard button.
You could never drive again,
type of deal.
But what I will tell you this,
(39:24):
um,
specific to say ad U I ad U I,
it's hard to come back from because insurance companies are gonna go back.
Uh,
and I may have quoted seven years before I believe it's actually five.
I'm gonna go back at least five years.
Well,
what,
you know,
in that five years before that du I is,
you know,
five years old,
right?
That whole time where you need to be making money,
(39:45):
it's gonna be very difficult for you to find employment.
Um,
you're looked at as an insurance risk.
You made a decision that,
that paints you on paper as more likely than not to be involved in a crash.
Right.
So,
similarly with,
with,
um,
any drug,
right?
If you,
if you get caught operating the vehicle while under the influence of a drug,
(40:11):
you know,
some states,
at least I'll,
I'll speak to Missouri.
I know how I live in Kansas City,
so I know how it works.
In the state of Missouri.
There's two sides to AD U I or AD W I.
Right.
Whatever it is,
one is gonna be your driver's license,
it can affect your license.
So,
ad U I and how it affects your CD L.
Yes,
they are going to make it hell for you to get that CD L back.
(40:34):
But in the state of Missouri,
at least there's also a criminal side.
So you are charged administratively for your driver's license.
So how it affects your CD L but you're also going to receive a criminal charge that you then have to go to court for.
So you're seeing it on two fronts,
right?
So not only do you have an issue with your license going forward,
you're gonna have a criminal charge that shows when we run your background,
(40:57):
right?
So just it,
it definitely paints you in a more negative light when you have those types of things happen opposed to,
you know,
if you're,
if you violate on a random,
you weren't operating a vehicle,
that's a more proactive approach to then getting help.
That is why the government put a program in place that says,
(41:18):
hey,
you know,
you violated on a random drug test.
We're gonna allow you to go through substance abuse counseling.
We're gonna put you on a more stringent drug testing program.
And then if you can comply with those requirements,
you can continue to drive.
So there is a difference in,
in how the violation occurs,
(41:40):
I guess.
But the reality of it is it.
And if you're a company who's looking at,
whether you want to re retain a driver like that or hire a driver like that,
you know,
they're required by the government to spend more money on you,
giving you more drug tests,
it costs the company more money to keep you on as a driver than somebody who doesn't have that,
(42:04):
uh,
violation history.
So by no means would I want to make anyone think that if you make a mistake in life,
you know,
your life is over.
Um,
but it is definitely gonna create a lot more hoops for you to jump through as well as the company,
uh,
that you're working for.
And I,
you know,
you're gonna spend a lot of money.
(42:26):
It's not like,
you know,
when they say go get substance abuse counseling that the company is gonna pay for it.
That's a cost that's gonna come out of your pocket.
The government's not paying for it.
You are.
So,
you know,
if you want to get back in the truck,
you're gonna spend money on that counseling,
you're gonna spend money on an attorney to go protect your license.
(42:47):
It's a very costly mistake for something,
you know.
II,
I have personal friends that drive truck.
I have friends that work in construction.
Uh,
I'm former military so I've still got friends,
you know,
that are,
that are in the service and they're all held to the same standard and when you weigh the,
the risk versus reward,
you know.
yes,
(43:07):
there are benefits for the use of medical marijuana that people make those arguments.
But is that risk for your livelihood worth the,
the same benefit you may be able to get from Ibuprofen or you know,
an ice pack or some stretching.
Like there's,
there's other things you could do.
Don't use your,
you know,
don't use pain,
(43:29):
knee pain or back pain to ruin,
ruin your life.
Right.
Right.
And you know,
you mentioned the cost down the road,
um,
like inpatient substance abuse counseling or,
or rehab if you want to call it that,
that's not cheap.
That's a,
that's $1000 a night hotel that you're staying in with a lot of medical professionals around you to help you out.
And uh I gotta be honest,
(43:50):
I don't think Jason's cutting that check.
I think that one's coming out of your pocket like Garrett was saying.
So uh important to think about the consequences down the road and everything.
Jason,
I want to go back to you here because I'm th I'm trying to put myself in the boots of a driver here and I was thinking,
can you talk me through a little bit?
What the situation would be if I've just tested positive?
(44:14):
I haven't been caught driving under the influence.
I've been out on vacation for a few days.
Maybe I was at a house party or something like that.
I get caught up in this whole wheel.
What are the next steps for me?
Obviously,
you guys know about it.
Where do we go from here?
Yeah.
So a couple of scenarios there,
you know,
you have this scenario if you test positive for a random or a preemployment.
(44:37):
Well,
if it's preemployment,
that's an easy one.
You know,
you won't get the job if it's random,
uh,
nine times out of 10,
you know,
uh this,
this is where it becomes difficult because,
you know,
as a,
a small mid-sized family owned trucking business and,
you know,
trying to appease your workforce and regulators and insurers,
(45:01):
you know,
if you,
if you have someone that tested positive on a random and they've been working for you for 10 years,
you know,
we don't want to cast somebody to the curb and,
and terminate them right away.
You know,
that's the,
that's the heartstring part that,
that gets mixed in with all of the,
the firm black and white.
So,
you know,
like I said,
it's,
it's happened two or three times and the,
(45:23):
the most memorable one is we had a driver in Texas or Arizona get pulled into a scale and the officer smelled marijuana and searched the truck and found a little bit and we had to fly a driver down there and fly a driver back because we couldn't let him drive any longer,
(45:46):
you know,
immediately loses his job,
you know,
trucks just sitting there in the middle of nowhere.
And that's a big black mark,
you know,
for the driver and the company because that's on your record and,
and you're,
and you're sitting here thinking like,
what can you do from our shoes?
Which is why we're here talking about it today to start educating people more than,
(46:10):
you know,
if you're,
uh,
if you're gonna do something like that,
it could be really costly.
So what does it look like if you wanna get,
you know,
if you,
if you test positive,
we've done this,
you know,
uh,
on a random and you,
you've been working here a long time and,
you know,
our owners decide that we want,
uh,
hang tight with this driver for a while and put him through a substance abuse program and the return to duty process and give him an opportunity and that can be lengthy.
(46:37):
You know,
I've seen six months of drug testing up to three years of drug testing and,
and,
and you're taking on a huge risk and you're pushing that risk upstream to your insurers.
You know,
the folks that Garrett works with and,
and,
and your captive members.
So there's a lot of thought,
careful thought that goes into it,
(46:59):
um,
from a lot of different angles.
And I think that's part of this whole discussion and,
and how it's changing,
you know,
it's changing and not only how it's viewed in the insurance world and how it's viewed from an ownership and trucking,
uh executive,
you know,
standpoint and,
and how you interact with your workforce and,
and then the government,
you know,
if you look at the regulation,
(47:21):
there's a lot of people calling for change,
it hasn't happened.
So that's why it's still got to be a firm.
No,
but there's definitely a lot of movement in people saying it needs to change.
Well,
when,
when is that gonna be a year 1020 for now,
you gotta still follow the rules.
Yeah.
And I don't think there's an easy way to predict when that change is going to happen.
(47:44):
Jason,
because we've been talking about it since all the way back when Obama took office for the first time.
And,
and something that I've seen both in my experience in the industry and from the outside.
I uh working in an industry like this where,
you know,
it's,
it's kind of a no go and non touch type thing.
Politicians love these big heavy headlines that will,
(48:06):
you know,
if they say uh federal legalization of marijuana is around the corner in such and such is administration that's just trying to get them in.
That's just trying to put a news out there,
headlines out there to try to get people excited.
All the people that want it legalized are going to vote for that candidate,
all of them that don't,
are not going to vote for that candidate.
And that's typically where the buck stops.
(48:28):
If you look back at the history of different administrations coming in an administration getting elected for a second term,
they love these buzz words,
they love to talk marijuana legalization and then nothing happens after that.
So holding your breath and waiting for it isn't a good idea either.
It's just just no,
I mean,
it really does feel like that's where this whole conversation is kind of coming full circle to is uh if you want to protect the company,
(48:54):
you want to protect yourself,
the answer is no,
sorry,
just not in this line of work.
Yeah.
And if you know,
and Garrett,
you'll probably weigh on this.
I'm,
I'm even if they did do some sort of regulation change,
I don't know that I can stand on that side of the fence and support it because we drive big trucks with dangerous products in heavy heavily populated environments with uh traffic scenarios that are just nightmarish.
(49:21):
I,
I mean,
what's your take on that?
Garrett?
Would you even get behind,
uh you know,
supporting some,
some regulation on it,
you know?
It's a,
that's a very difficult question.
The fact of the matter is,
is you will never be able to operate a tractor trailer under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
And one of the parts that makes this difficult uh in terms of change is there is no effective way for law enforcement to tell whether you consumed marijuana a week ago or you are under the influence at the time operating that tractor trailer.
(50:02):
And that's really where the issue lies is,
you know,
it's,
it's gonna be very hard for them to stomach legislation,
removing,
say marijuana from drug testing for truck drivers without a way to test drivers for impairment.
You know,
we,
a lot of the times you hear the argument comparing to alcohol,
right?
You know,
(50:22):
um,
lots of people in multiple professions consume alcohol.
It's legal,
it's been legal since the 19 thirties after the after prohibition.
Um,
should you operate a tractor trailer under the influence of alcohol?
No.
Absolutely.
No.
It's a hard,
no,
every single time.
(50:43):
However,
when it comes to alcohol,
they are able to test for impairment versus,
you know,
you had a cocktail with a friend on a Tuesday night and now it's,
you know,
a Friday,
right?
Like it's,
it's a very different thing.
So it,
it is hard to,
to think of how could someone support allowing people to operate such heavy equipment under the influence of any drug,
(51:11):
whether it's alcohol,
marijuana,
methamphetamine.
I mean,
what you do is so serious,
uh,
in terms of,
you know,
keeping our country moving,
but also protecting the general public that's on these roadways.
Um,
you know,
a lot of the times truck drivers take the flack for that.
You know,
it's the dirty truck driver on the road trying to kill people.
(51:34):
Well,
I do a lot of driving for work too guys and it's not,
it's not always,
you,
you know,
there's a lot of the general public that that doesn't drive,
well,
let alone,
you know,
a truck driver and I just,
it's hard to fathom allowing drivers to be in a position where their reaction time is impaired and they're in a vehicle that weighs thousands upon thousands of pounds.
(51:55):
It's do I think that change in terms of how it's gonna be dealt with will come.
I,
I do believe that mainly,
you know,
it's hard,
it's hard to find drivers as it is.
And I think there's a lot of people who don't get into trucking because that's their,
you know,
that's their choice.
They choose,
they choose one over the other.
(52:15):
You know,
I can't be a truck driver because II,
I smoke marijuana or I,
you know,
I use CBD.
So it,
it has affected the driver market.
I think that,
that if anything will be a driving factor for,
like Jason said,
who knows when 2020 years,
10 years,
five years,
I think it will affect you know,
(52:35):
some change in the industry,
but at the end of the day,
will you ever be allowed to drive a tractor trailer while smoking a joint like you do a cigarette?
No,
it's,
it's never gonna be,
it's never gonna be that way.
Your job is way too,
way too serious and rightfully so I living out here in the state of Oregon,
uh,
as you guys know,
it's a very green state.
Uh,
We were,
(52:56):
you know,
one of the first states to go full decriminalization and legalization and all of that.
And I wouldn't trust a lot of these high drivers that I have to deal with around here,
uh with the keys to a power wheels,
let alone a Prius or uh a semi truck loaded down with £80,000 of goods on it.
It's just not safe.
(53:17):
It's,
it causes a butterfly effect.
I noticed that drivers that are high,
at least ones that I assume are high and there is a little bit of going into this as well,
but you're driving very slow.
They're stopping for an incredibly long time.
It's not always the most unsafe behavior that they're,
uh actually doing.
It's the fact that it's affecting everyone around them and all of a sudden you pull up to someplace that's normally a thoroughfare going 45 and somebody's crawling down the road at 15 miles an hour or somebody wants to turn out onto a,
(53:49):
a highway off of a side street and they pull out and it takes them forever to accelerate.
There's so many different little things that go into operating a vehicle and that's just a four Wheler talking,
uh that,
that you have to maintain control over to stay safe out there.
And it is exponentially harder to do in a big rig,
(54:10):
which is why the answer is just no,
it,
it's,
I mean,
we're gonna keep hitting that obviously because that's why we're having this conversation is to educate and inform.
But uh,
regardless of what the law book says in the state that you're in,
you're under the federal government's thumb here.
And,
uh,
it,
it's not gonna help you at all to,
uh to puff a little Chiba in your off time.
(54:31):
Trust me on that.
Uh Jason,
anything else before we let Garrett get back to work here?
We've,
uh,
we're,
we're coming up against the clock a little bit,
but I don't want to cut anybody off.
If there's more that needs to be said,
no,
I think that's the perfect lead in because one of the things I wanted to close with today is,
you know,
this podcast is for our,
uh our working force and our drivers.
(54:53):
So if you're listening to this and you want a part two or a follow up to it,
you have uh questions and thoughts or stories that,
you know,
as a driver,
you want to get on here with your,
you know,
peer and a couple of drivers,
three drivers or myself or anybody really and,
and continue this discussion,
(55:14):
you know,
I think that that's what we're looking for.
Um,
because if you are asking questions and we can get answers and continue the discussion,
ultimately,
that's just kind of continued,
you know,
training and education for everybody listening.
Well,
put Jason,
thank you for the time.
Really.
Appreciate you coming out today.
And uh,
also Garrett Larson,
again,
safety consultant for safety Management services company.
(55:37):
Uh Thank you.
The,
the insight and expertise coming from your side of the coin is,
is very appreciated and we really appreciate you being in here today.
I really appreciate you having me.
Thanks a bunch Garrett there.
You have it.
Liquid Trucking episode 11 of the Liquid Trucking podcast is in the books that was an educational and informative episode.
(56:05):
And I can't thank guys like Nick Meyer,
Jason Eisenman and Garrett Larson for sharing their time with us today.
Uh Garrett Larson,
we're gonna have him back.
Uh He's,
he's out there at Safety Management services company and he's got a lot of really good insight on the reasons uh why insurance companies make the decisions that they do and how it affects a trucking company,
(56:27):
like liquid,
such great stuff from him there.
And of course,
as always my guy,
Nick Meyer,
uh bringing the heat and Jason Eisenman.
Uh he's got that radio voice man.
I'll tell you sometimes I think in a second life or a different life,
Jason was like an AM radio star.
I'm talking talk radio,
all the people listening,
(56:48):
you know,
big market type stuff.
Like I could picture him out there in Omaha being the number 1 a.m. radio guy in the morning talking about all the issues.
I don't know something about that radio voice.
I just hear it.
There's a lot of those at Liquid Trucking.
Maybe that's the reason they wanted to do a podcast.
Are you guys trying to moonlight as broadcasters if you are?
(57:09):
I'm ok with it.
I could use the break and uh honestly,
I get sick of listening to myself.
So I want to listen to other people talk.
Thank you,
everybody that joined the podcast today and shared their time with us and thank you out there for listening.
Don't forget to click that subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening to us on that really helps us and it'll help,
you know,
when there's a new episode coming out as always doing them every week.
(57:33):
Wednesdays at 5 a.m. Central is when you'll hear the new episodes.
If you're out there looking for them,
we gotta put the brakes on this one.
I'm going home for the night.
We will see you next week right here on the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
Stay safe out there.
Thanks for tuning in and being the gold standard of drivers on the road.
Be sure to like and subscribe to the channel and tune in next week for another episode of the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
What's good out there?
Liquid Drivers and Liquid staff.
Welcome into the Liquid Trucking Podcast episode 11.
I'm your host,
Marcus Bridges.
Appreciate you taking the time to join us today and make sure for my sake and yours that you click that subscribe button,
it won't cost you one red cent,
but it'll let you know every single time that we drop a new episode,
(00:23):
which for those of you that don't know already is Wednesday morning at 5 a.m. central time bright and early so that it's ready for your daily run.
Now,
today's episode is concerning something that uh some people in the industry might call a bit of a touchy subject.
Today,
we're talking about marijuana or cannabis uh in the transportation industry and that's kind of a broad topic we're gonna hit on it from all different segments.
(00:53):
Uh We've got a really cool guest coming up here a little bit later on who is a safety expert.
He dealt with drug tests in the past.
And uh we're gonna get all sorts of great information from him.
His name is Garrett Larson.
By the way,
we'll also talk to Jason Eisenman while uh Garrett's on the phone with us.
So we get that hr angle of uh cannabis and trucking and also going to hear from recruiter Nick Meyer for a bit of the recruiting angle and there's more than that as well.
(01:24):
But uh before we get started today,
I just wanted to kind of jump into a few of the things that you might hear in this episode and think what uh first of all,
you heard me refer to it as cannabis and marijuana,
the terms are totally interchangeable for those of you that uh haven't studied up on it.
It's,
it's one and the same,
the cannabis thing in my vocabulary comes from the fact that I actually worked for five years in the medical and legally recreational cannabis industry here in Oregon.
(01:55):
Um I did a little bit of what they call bud tending,
which is just like a bartender except for you're on the,
you're the retail facing guy.
I was the one that was helping you for about a year find what you wanted and I dealt with a lot of medical patients rather than uh recreational patients.
I was the dispensary manager actually,
when we switched over from medical licensure to recreational licensure.
(02:20):
So I am familiar with the red tape and regulation that comes along with the recreationally legal cannabis industry and it's really a state to state thing at this point federally.
This is still a schedule one substance which means if you get caught with it crossing state lines by a federal officer,
(02:41):
they will pin you to the wall.
Ok.
If you get caught at,
by TS A,
in a state where it's not legal,
they will pin you to the wall.
Uh,
but then again,
you might be in a state that's legal like Oregon where ts a agents,
if you have what they call a user amount,
which is just enough for you to enjoy and uh not,
(03:02):
you're not planning on going out and selling it by the brick.
Uh,
ts A agents here in Oregon,
at least in my experience have shown the,
the,
the proclivity to kind of look away a little bit or turn the other cheek,
um,
in many places,
what their bylaws read is that they will refer you to local law enforcement and it just depends on whether or not local law enforcement feels like dealing with it that day.
(03:27):
However,
there are places like uh Chicago o'hare Airport where they'll just cuff you and throw you in prison for the rest of your life.
Look,
it's a joke.
It's a little bit tongue in cheek.
I think what I'm trying to highlight here is the fact that you probably don't know how each state wants to deal with it.
Ok.
In Oregon,
Washington,
California,
(03:47):
you can walk down the street,
smoke in a joint and nobody is going to blink an eye at you.
In fact,
they might just think you're local instead of a tourist.
However,
as I've said,
I know many states out there where if you get caught walking down the street smoking a joint,
your ass is headed to the clink.
So we're gonna talk about all of that today.
But mostly,
(04:08):
and,
and exclusively,
we're going to focus on how these differences in laws from state to state affect the transportation industry and our drivers out there,
we want everybody to stay safe.
And uh one thing I can tell you is that uh there's been a lot of drug tests that have come up positive for cannabis according to uh the FM CS A's drug and alcohol clearing test this or clearing house.
(04:36):
Excuse me.
Uh I have some stats here from the US Department of Transportation that show me in 2020.
Yeah,
out of all of the drug tests that were administered,
there were 29,511 that pop positive for cannabis.
Uh 31,085 in 2021.
In 2022 people were partying a little bit.
(04:56):
In 2022 we had 40,916 drug tests positive for cannabis.
And in 2023 that number fell off quite a bit down to 32,293.
What does that mean?
Well,
believe it or not,
you know,
you hear a lot about truckers and meth and truckers and cocaine and these stimulants that keep you awake for hours on end.
(05:18):
Um,
marijuana,
cannabis absolutely trumps them when it comes to positive drug tests.
For instance,
in 2023 I told you we had 32,200 positive tests for cannabis and marijuana.
Uh cocaine,
8883 methamphetamine only 3880.
(05:38):
So maybe it's time that we leave that stigma behind.
I don't think there's nearly as many truck drivers out there doing meth,
uh or at least doing meth and getting caught as what there used to be.
That number's gone way down over the years again.
In 2022 it was a party year.
Everything was higher in 2022.
(05:59):
We're gonna talk more about these stats as the episode unfolds and figure out exactly how we navigate these waters within the transportation industry.
It's episode 11 of the Liquid Trucking Podcast and we're kicking it off right now.
Welcome to the Gold Standard of podcast for the gold standard of drivers.
This is the Liquid Trucking podcast with your host,
(06:22):
Marcus Bridges.
Next up here on the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
I've got recruiter Nick Meyer on the line.
Nick.
Thank you so much for being here,
my friend.
Good to be here.
Now,
we're talking about uh the devil's lettuce today,
uh The,
the green lightning,
(06:42):
whatever you wanna call it.
Uh There's a lot of states out there that are legalizing or decriminalizing cannabis,
marijuana right now and uh,
that provides a little bit of a confusing landscape for truck drivers.
Uh,
there is one really good adage to stick by and that's just,
just say no,
I mean,
the one that they taught us all back in grade school when we were taking dare classes,
(07:04):
right.
But,
uh,
obviously there's a lot of people that try to use this stuff for medicinal purposes and what have you.
Uh,
so,
you know,
we're talking about the gray areas today here,
Nick and I wondered as a recruiter,
what are you looking for as far as,
as a recruiter is concerned when it comes to,
uh,
positive drug tests or,
(07:25):
uh,
refused drug tests,
anything like that?
Are those drivers that might come to you with those types of things on their record automatically disqualified or is there a way for them to get around and get back to driving after something like that?
Yeah.
So it's,
it's becoming a much larger issue than it ever has been with the FM CS A.
(07:47):
Um,
you know,
I mean,
in 2022 there were almost 41,000 positive tests.
Um,
and it,
and that's 32% more than 2021.
So the trend is going in the wrong direction.
So when I'm recruiting,
you know,
there's a few questions that I'd have to ask if they did have a positive,
(08:10):
uh,
one if they've had their return to duty testing completed and then their program completed as well.
So you have to be able to test uh,
negative to be able to come back to work.
But then they typically assign you 1 to 2 or three years of testing as well.
(08:32):
Um That is in addition to our testing as a trucking company that we have to do for,
uh,
the dot So it's a big problem now and it's only going to get bigger.
Um,
now as far as our company,
um,
you know,
if someone has completed all of the steps and their 12 or three years of testing and then we are definitely open to looking at them to drive for us.
(09:02):
If you're a driver with us,
you know,
you have to follow the testing and follow the rules.
You know,
our biggest challenge or our biggest focus is to help with the misinformation with our drivers so that they can be aware of that,
even though it says it doesn't have THC in it,
(09:23):
there's a lot of CBD products um that are legal in states where the devil's lettuce is not legal.
And so they think they're safe and they just aren't any bit of THC that comes up positive in A dot Test when you have a A CD L,
that's a fail,
(09:43):
it's not a certain amount.
Um It's any amount.
So that's our biggest challenge right now is fighting the 38 states that it's legal for med use in the 21 states that it's legal for recreational and just how common it is.
You know,
(10:03):
the federal government has not been their rules at all on this.
Right.
They're still exactly what they have been.
There's been no movement on it whatsoever.
And,
uh,
as somebody with a little bit of experience,
I don't know if you knew this about me,
Nick,
but I did work in the legal cannabis industry here in Oregon for about five years and I,
I will give you all drivers that are listening to this one very easy piece of advice to remember when it comes to CBD CBD products federally have a 0.3% allowable THC uh amount within them.
(10:41):
So if they're testing a product for CBD and it has a 0.3% or less THC in it,
that's ok.
They can sell that on the open market in a state where cannabis is illegal.
They can still sell that in some cases that does not mean that you as a driver can take that substance whether it be uh you know,
(11:02):
an edible or smokable or,
or whatever uh and not test positive for cannabis.
I it will still show up even if it's that small,
I'm not gonna get into how long it stays in your system and all the different ways that you can try to duck these because these tests need to be honest.
And unfortunately,
if you've got mixed up with that CBD in the past,
(11:22):
it could have cost you uh uh uh basically a positive test.
And,
and I think there's a lot of um misinformation like you mentioned out there about that,
a lot of people think that this stuff is just completely independent of THC and it really isn't correct,
correct.
And,
you know,
it's not like we just started testing for marijuana and other drugs as well.
(11:46):
But with FM CS A,
with them starting to track this and us having to report every positive,
what this has done is,
it's created a report card of past drug use and that is good for me as a recruiter because I want to be able to see how someone has behaved in the past three or four or five years because prior to that,
(12:11):
it was just unknown.
Um,
you know,
but what that has done it in a market where the driver pool has been low is,
it's knocked out a lot more people with that reporting.
I mean,
over 100,000 tests positive since this inception,
(12:32):
but that's 100,000 additional drivers that are flagged in the system,
uh,
that we never had before.
So,
you know,
the biggest thing that I think any company can do is help their drivers understand that if you have a class A,
it doesn't matter,
(12:52):
you can't risk it with some of the CBD products out there that are claiming to not have THC when it's just not true and it's hurt a lot of guys and I'm not saying that there's plenty of guys that,
uh,
have just hung out with their buddies and smoked pot.
Um,
you know,
that's happened as well.
(13:13):
Uh,
but they have to take,
take into consideration that,
that,
that class a,
it really restricts you from,
uh,
from what everybody else is almost able to do and rightfully so,
you know,
it's definitely not something,
I mean,
you hear the stigma all the time about truckers out there on meth or on cocaine trying to keep themselves awake?
(13:36):
Well,
let's,
let's juxtapose that with a driver that's uh just blasted out of his mind on weed.
He's probably not paying attention to everything that he needs to concentrate on.
Uh I wanted to ask you,
Nick about uh refusals to take the test.
Now,
does that show up as basically a failed test or is there a different kind of categorization for refusing your test?
(14:00):
Yeah.
So that,
that is,
that's just the same as testing positive.
Yeah.
Correct.
You know,
it doesn't help you in any way.
If you refuse to take a test,
we still have to report it as a refusal and they count that as a positive U A uh and it affects you exactly the same.
(14:23):
Got it.
So just take the test because even if you fail it,
uh your results are the exact same at that point.
So refusing isn't,
isn't doing you any good?
I'm looking at uh the,
the clearinghouse,
uh,
the FM CS A clearing house right now,
some of the statistics,
uh,
the drug and alcohol clearing house more,
uh,
more specifically.
(14:44):
And I think it's funny because I,
I do hear all the time.
You,
I brought up the stigma with truck drivers on meth,
you know,
west coast turnarounds.
There's a joke in every movie,
uh,
that has to do with anything truck driving about that.
But I'm looking at the numbers from 2023 and I see only 3800 positive tests for methamphetamine and people might go 3800.
(15:07):
That's a,
but not when you stick it up against 32,000 positive tests for cannabis or marijuana.
It's clearly the drug of choice as far as these tests are pointing out,
uh,
far more than any other drug.
In fact,
far more than the next three or four different varieties of drug combined.
(15:27):
Uh,
more positive tests for marijuana.
It is something that,
uh,
obviously there's a little bit of confusion on about,
uh,
about it and you know what's allowable and what's not because I know a lot,
like you said,
not every one of those 32,000 guys just went and smoked a bowl with their buddies.
Uh,
some of these guys were probably,
um,
a little bit surprised at their result,
(15:49):
uh,
because they've been taking CBD Gummies or something like that,
you know.
Yeah.
And it,
and it comes down to,
it's just so common.
Now,
you know,
if they legalize meth,
we would see the same trends and those numbers go up.
Um,
any drug that they legalize will become more common in our day to day lives.
(16:10):
You know,
it doesn't matter where you were,
it's gonna be common and just everywhere.
So,
you know,
but right now marijuana is becoming more and more common and these are the adverse effects to the federal government having laws against something that they're allowing to be legal or the states are.
(16:32):
And so there's,
there's just some disruption there,
but I agree with you on the fact that,
you know,
drive,
just driving high would have horrendous consequences.
It's already dangerous enough to drive sober,
especially in the winter right now.
I mean,
(16:52):
it's just,
it's very dangerous.
Um,
you know,
when you mix semis all on the road with small little cars and families in a minivan,
you need to be alert,
you know,
as clear as you can.
So,
it's just important to spread the information of,
(17:13):
of what product you should avoid and stay away from if you want to keep your C,
your CD L.
I mean,
it's just,
it's cut and dry.
There's no wiggle room here for sure.
Well,
Nick,
this has all been really great information.
I'm gonna let you get back to work.
I know you're a busy guy,
but I really appreciate you stopping by the podcast again and hanging out for a little bit and,
(17:36):
uh,
we'll get you back on here soon.
All right.
All right,
buddy.
Thank you so much.
Appreciate it.
That's Nick Meyer from Liquid Trucking.
Hey,
real quick while we're here and we're talking about the subject matter at hand.
I did want to report something to you that you've probably already heard if you're a driver and definitely already heard if you're a guy like Jason who deals with this type of stuff every single day.
(18:06):
But I figure it's good to get this information out there because these changes with the FM CS A,
uh drug and alcohol clearing house did just happen.
They became,
uh effective on November 18th.
So I'm just gonna read you the short press release here and,
and talk about the changes a little bit because they don't have a lot of time.
Uh,
but it says here that the clearing house return to duty process for CD L drivers has changed a driver with a drug and alcohol program violation is prohibited from performing safety sensitive functions.
(18:38):
That's parts the same including operating CMVS for any dot Regulated employer until the return to duty process is complete.
This is the new part beginning November 18th,
2024.
As part of new federal regulations,
drivers with a prohibited status in FM CS A's drug and alcohol clearing house will lose or be denied their state issued commercial driving privileges.
(19:04):
Now,
I misspoke right off the top and I'm catching that before we go any further here.
This didn't just change November 18th of 2023.
It is a proposed change that will happen.
November 18th,
2024.
I want to make sure we're very clear on that FM CS A recently added a new resource to the clearinghouse learning center that outlines the return to duty process that drivers with a prohibited clearinghouse status must complete so they can get their status back to not prohibited.
(19:33):
There is a link in this uh news release and I went ahead and clicked it.
It takes you over to the drug and alcohol clearings uh house learning center and it says,
are you prohibited from operating a commercial motor vehicle due to a drug and alcohol program violation complete the return to duty process.
Here's how it reiterates the November 18th,
new federal regulations that will take drivers with a prohibited status and uh take away their state issued commercial driving privileges.
(20:02):
Then the next page says,
how do I complete the return to duty process and get back to being not prohibited?
You have to select a substance abuse professional.
You'll be provided a list of professionals from your employer.
Then you get to choose which one you want to go with.
You have to take the return to duty test and you must be sent to the return to duty test by your employer.
(20:23):
You cannot show up and just be like,
hey,
I wanna take it sucks that it's that way.
But that's uh for a reason if you're an owner operator,
uh your designated consortium or third party administrator must send you for this test.
Once you're clearing house status is not prohibited,
you are eligible to resume performing safety sensitive functions.
(20:44):
And it says here,
your status will be updated when your employer enters your negative return to duty test result in the clearinghouse uh to remain in a not prohibited status.
Your employer must complete the follow up test plan with you as specified by the substance abuse professional,
which must include a minimum of six unannounced follow up tests in the 1st 12 months of returning to performing safety sensitive functions.
(21:09):
So there you have it.
Uh some changes coming,
obviously,
your state issued license is going to get taken away if you end up in a prohibited status or if you don't have one yet,
you will not be permitted to get one.
So that's pretty much the tall and the short of it.
I told you I was gonna keep it short.
I kept it as short as I could head on over to FM CS a.org and click on the clearinghouse section.
(21:34):
Uh There is tons of information over there for you.
Uh If you have any questions,
Jason Eisenman is your dude,
make sure to call him over at the Platts Smith terminal.
Let's get back to it next up here on the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
(21:56):
I've got a couple of gentlemen,
joining me to talk about the topic at hand.
It's Vice President of Safety and Hr Jason Eisenman from Liquid Trucking.
Jason,
how are you doing today?
Doing good.
Always good to be back.
Thanks for being here and joining us for the first time.
We've got Garrett Larson.
Now,
Garrett is a safety consultant for safety management services company.
Garrett.
(22:16):
Really appreciate the time.
Thanks for being here.
Happy and excited to be here.
Can you tell me a little bit about what being a safety consultant for safety management services company entails?
So safety management services company is actually owned by an insurance company called Cottingham and Butler,
Cottingham and Butler insures uh multiple different uh entities,
(22:37):
primarily trucking businesses.
There's some manufacturing that goes with that.
So what a safety consultant does um is I go in and I look at companies and compare kind of what they're doing with the expectations of their insurance company and kind of try to help people uh buff up their safety program,
so to speak.
Well,
perfect.
(22:58):
You're gonna be the ideal guest for today's topic because uh what we're talking about does definitely have to do with some safety concerns.
Um And,
and that is basically the the changing landscape of marijuana and or cannabis,
whatever you prefer to call it,
uh legalization and decrime across the United States.
Now,
obviously,
(23:18):
we all know the federal government has not budged at all on this,
this is a schedule one substance.
Um,
but in talking with you,
Jason,
we've kind of,
uh,
kicked this idea around because you don't really feel like this is talked about enough within the industry,
do you?
I don't,
I think that it is a really big topic that's kind of like hiding behind a bush right now and it,
(23:42):
it can affect,
uh,
a,
a trucking company,
uh,
an insurance company,
you know,
like Garrett's that he works with and all the trucking companies that he works with and all the drivers that work here,
you know,
on such a really big level because our,
our drivers and my passion lies with the fact that if they have,
you know,
a testing that's marijuana positive,
(24:05):
they,
they have such a road to get back to work that,
you know,
uh that the government puts in place through the return to duty process and then,
you know,
possibly stack that with the fact that maybe they got into an accident and that's how we found out that they were positive for marijuana and that could be really bad because then,
(24:28):
uh as Garrett will also agree that insurance companies get hit with large lawsuits along with trucking companies like ourselves.
You know,
we're partially self funded and the,
the lawyers,
the plaintiff lawyers out there use those positive tests for marijuana to really exploit those awards in court.
(24:48):
So it's a,
it's a really big deal on many levels.
Have you seen a lot of,
uh,
legislation like that or not legislation but litigation.
Sorry Garrett.
Uh,
in your line of work for,
well,
concerning,
uh,
marijuana.
Of course,
I mean,
anytime there is a claim,
so when you hear me talking about and you're gonna hear me talk about it in terms of the claim,
(25:08):
anytime we have a claim where there is a positive drug or alcohol test,
that is going to dictate a lot about how that claim is going to play out in terms of dollars and cents.
So whether that affects the,
the company who's paying their insurance premiums or the insurance company all the way on up to um the courts themselves because a lot of the times these are litigated in court and anytime that you have a positive drug or uh alcohol test,
(25:38):
you,
you,
you're really increasing the value of where that claim is gonna go in a,
in a,
in a negative way for a lot of companies and you're kind of already seeing,
I don't know if you guys have seen it,
but you're kind of already seeing an an increase in insurance premiums in the,
in the private automobile sector.
You know,
everybody's insurance rates seem to be going up.
Well,
(25:59):
when there are accidents,
right?
And when those accidents cost more money that gets spread out across insurance,
right?
You kind of gotta think about it as a big umbrella.
So as these claims um happen and as verdicts get bigger and bigger and bigger.
So does the cost for companies like liquid trucking to,
to pay their insurance premiums,
(26:19):
you know,
and maintain a competitive,
you know,
pay for drivers because you know,
money,
money always comes from somewhere for sure.
And you know,
in speaking to um that,
you know,
you're saying it increased insurance rates.
I my my sister is my insurance agent and it was awkward at Christmas dinner.
I'll tell you that much because I keep getting these letters and the rates just keep going up like you're saying.
(26:42):
And,
uh Jason,
you mentioned,
you know,
it's not really talked about enough.
I,
I'm,
I'm sitting here right now looking at the drug and alcohol clearing house stats from the US Department of Transportation,
uh in concert with the FM CS A and since January of 2020 they have identified cannabis or marijuana in a drug test,
(27:05):
positively 100 and 33,805 times.
The next closest substance to that has only been identified 36,500 times.
I think that that right there paints the picture for why we're even having this conversation with all of the changing laws in different states.
And is it legal medically,
(27:25):
is it legal recreationally?
Is it just decriminalized?
Uh It's,
it's very confusing to know what state you're in,
what the rules are.
And,
and I think that it's important that we talk about Jason,
there's kind of a good overarching rule for cannabis and truck drivers and that's just kind of don't do it right.
You can't ever be sure you can't ever be 100% safe.
(27:48):
So,
if you want to protect your CD L license,
you want to protect your truck and the company,
uh,
stay away from the stuff.
I am.
I am I accurate there,
Jason 100%.
In fact,
you know,
it is a law,
uh you know,
it's federal law,
you know,
it is not allowed.
And if you're going to hold and I should caveat that with saying if you're holding a commercial driver's license,
(28:10):
class A B,
et cetera testing positive for marijuana is going to get you reported to the clearing house and as a carrier,
we have certain steps,
we have to follow as a driver,
you have certain steps to follow if you want to get back behind the wheel and that return to duty process can be costly,
can be cumbersome at the house.
You know,
if you're not working and earning money to pay the bills and,
(28:33):
and that's the personal like attachment point for me because I've had um in the last five years,
you know,
we've had two or three guys,
one of them being someone that worked here for a long time,
seven plus years,
get uh you know,
have a te a a positive test and,
and you're like,
man,
what are you doing?
(28:54):
Yeah,
that's your,
that's your livelihood and it's all,
you know,
in,
in reality it's all of our livelihood because we're all at the same place working with the kind of uniform goal of serving our customers.
But if we get ourselves in a predicament with a wreck,
uh,
and then you're positive on top of it,
you're,
you're talking about affecting the possible livelihood of all of us because,
(29:17):
you know,
companies that get hit with those big nuclear verdicts that you hear about and read about,
you know,
multimillion dollars,
1020 $30 million.
You know,
that's the gravity of this situation when you get behind the wheel of a truck and you've,
uh,
done,
uh,
uh,
marijuana of some type and we're going to come back and talk about that because,
(29:39):
you know,
but when you do that,
you're putting a lot of people at risk,
your fellow drivers,
office staff,
uh,
you know,
everybody.
So the,
the,
the availability of it is also the scary part.
And I think Garrett and you would agree that you could drive through the streets of Omaha and we have stores on the corner that sell varying degrees of marijuana that's legal in Nebraska.
(30:05):
And if you go over to Iowa,
varying degrees of marijuana is sold there.
And if you go down into Missouri and out to Colorado,
so where we're located,
it's surrounding us in each state and our drivers are passing through these states that live in these areas.
But the fact of the matter is no matter what state you're in or what store is selling it.
If you have a CD L and you're driving a truck,
(30:26):
it's just a no go zone for sure.
And,
uh,
you know,
something that you kind of touched on a little bit there,
Jason,
uh,
CBD is very popular and,
and for those of you that are wondering,
you know,
why with the onslaught of initials that we're about to get to here with THC and CBD,
uh they're just different compounds in the plant.
And if I sound a little bit educated on this,
(30:46):
it is because I did work in the industry,
uh the legal cannabis industry,
I wasn't selling out of my back uh trunk at a Sears or anything like that.
But uh I was in it for about five years.
I did a lot of research on this stuff and uh CBD Cannabidiol that stuff is legal federally.
It can be shipped in the mail,
you can order it online,
but there is a very important guideline there.
(31:08):
And that is that about 0.3% of THC is allowed in a CBD product.
And that means that even if you're trying to just use CBD,
which is a non psychoactive substance,
a lot of people have um luck with,
you know,
pain or different kinds of ailments that they use it for.
A lot of people think that it's just safe to take that and it's not gonna show up on a drug test.
(31:32):
Well,
let me tell you something from experience if you're taking it and it does have that 0.3% THC it will show up on a drug test and it will ruin your career.
Um,
or at least,
maybe not ruin your career.
But as Jason said,
put everybody else in jeopardy,
including yourself.
Sorry,
I tend to be a little hyperbolic at times.
Jason,
I think that's why they put me in charge of the podcast.
(31:54):
Yeah,
no worries.
I wanted to ask Garrett,
you know,
I was really excited about this talk today.
Uh You know,
because,
and just to give a little more background on Garrett and our relationship with liquid Trucking,
uh Garrett comes in a couple of times a year in person and multiple times a year on phone calls or zoom calls and,
you know,
collectively we're working to make everybody operate safer and think about the,
(32:18):
all those things collectively,
you know,
from equipment to policies and practices.
So when,
when Garrett does that with a whole bunch of other trucking companies,
you know,
I was kind of excited to ask him like,
what are some of the stories you've heard?
The pros and cons,
maybe the good and the bad uh through other trucking companies that are still,
you know,
(32:39):
battling this marijuana transition across America where it's becoming more legal,
but it's still not legal for truck drivers in any capacity.
That's a,
that's a pretty interesting,
um,
conversation.
I love that.
We're having it,
you know,
and Ja Jason,
you nailed it on the head when it comes to marijuana and marijuana products.
(33:00):
As a truck driver.
It is,
it is a,
no,
a,
no,
a no.
And that is because you're,
you're underneath federal regulations that deal with marijuana.
Right.
So,
you're held to a federal standard regardless of the state you're in,
regardless of the county.
Drill it down to the municipality.
It does doesn't matter,
you're held to those federal standards.
(33:21):
So we all know,
you know,
that,
that includes your preemployment drug testing.
That also includes you into the,
the random drug testing for drug and alcohol that is conducted by your company.
Right?
So one thing that I do as for the insurance company,
as I review whether or not a company is compliant with those federal regulations,
I look at the rates for,
(33:45):
uh,
your randoms that the government dictates that you test a certain percentage of your drivers.
Well,
due to a statistic that was shared by Marcus earlier in the increase in marijuana positives and drug testing when I got into trucking,
it was 25% 25% of your fleet needed to be tested for drugs,
(34:05):
uh,
in a few years because of that statistic.
You heard it's now 50%.
You are,
you are drug testing,
50% of your driver pool at any given time when you run a random,
you're in a safety sensitive job function.
And as professional drivers,
you really do have to understand the ramifications of your decisions when you're operating a tractor trailer,
(34:29):
just as any other profession you are expected because you're professionals to hold yourself to a professional standard,
it can affect you as,
as a driver.
So your future as a driver.
Um,
one thing I do as well as I review new hire driver qualification files and I look at your violation history both in your personal vehicle,
(34:54):
uh,
your commercial vehicle.
And one of the expectations that is held for the clients that I work with is they will not hire drivers who have had drug and alcohol issues going back.
Uh,
I believe off the top of my head is seven years.
The clearing house was created to have a database of drug and alcohol violations.
(35:16):
So the,
the days of,
you know,
drug and alcohol violations,
not necessarily following you from employer to employer to employer,
they're gone.
We can track through that query.
We run before hiring you if you've failed a mandated dot Drug test at any time.
So it can follow you professionally and depending on how the,
(35:41):
the violation for,
for,
uh,
say marijuana comes along,
it's a little different when you,
you know,
you,
you have a positive test for a random right opposed to you're pulled over and you receive a,
a violation for operating the tractor under the influence of,
say,
marijuana or even alcohol,
right?
(36:01):
Those types of violations,
those also infect the drivers that you work with and they affect it.
So,
in your company's,
uh,
drug and alcohol CS,
a value,
that's a value that I look at for companies that customers of companies look at and it's a percentile that the government puts together,
that basically tells the world how that company performs in terms of drug and alcohol violations.
(36:28):
When companies show that they have a lot of those violations,
if they don't correct those issues going forward,
it will put them out of business.
And like Jason was saying,
you know,
those types of decisions really do affect more than just you when those CS A scores go up,
whether it's for drug and alcohol,
unsafe driving hours of service,
(36:48):
vehicle maintenance,
when you have those violations,
they cause the government to pull all your fellow drivers in for inspection more often.
So it can really affect you.
You know,
even if you're the guy who's flying on the straight and arrow,
you know,
if you,
if you're kind of in with some people making poor decisions,
(37:09):
you're gonna spend a lot more time,
you know,
under the scrutiny of,
uh,
vehicle enforcement going over your logs,
looking at your truck.
Um,
so if we're talking,
you know,
your career in terms of dollars and cents,
it can end it.
I don't,
you know,
me personally I'm,
I,
I can't afford to go 23,
maybe even four months without getting a paycheck.
(37:31):
But if you get let go,
you know,
from your company for a positive drug test and then you have to go through a S A program and you have to go through drug and alcohol counseling.
And,
I mean,
you know,
it's,
it's no different than ad ui,
I feel that in trucking we're all so terrified of ad U I,
you know,
I don't know if I've ever talked to anybody who holds a CD L that's not terrified to get ad U I because they know it could end their career.
(37:57):
This is the same thing and,
you know,
marijuana is not going away.
Uh It doesn't mean that the federal government will eventually re evaluate how we regulate these things.
But the fact of the matter is currently,
you know,
the expectations are that you do not participate in,
(38:17):
in the use of that substance.
Um And when you do it can,
it can cause,
you know,
a lot of issues for you personally,
as well as,
you know,
your,
your coworkers and the,
the people that rely on them to make money as well.
Sure.
And you can't,
uh you know,
you don't know when it's going to leave your system.
So there's no way to game this system.
I know a lot of people would like to think that they could go to a,
(38:40):
a record store and buy a fluorescent orange drink and drink it and then pass a drug test the next day.
Uh That type of stuff is,
is largely fantasy in my experience.
And I did want to touch on something though Garrett there that you brought up.
What is the difference in the way that the FM CS A looks at AD U I with the CD L as opposed to just a failed test.
(39:03):
Uh Are there different,
um,
criteria for,
for getting back behind the wheel or if you get ad U I for,
with a CD L?
Is that the end of it?
For good?
I'm not familiar with the laws surrounding that.
So educate me a little bit.
Oh,
no,
not necessary.
You know,
it's,
it's not a hard button.
You could never drive again,
type of deal.
But what I will tell you this,
(39:24):
um,
specific to say ad U I ad U I,
it's hard to come back from because insurance companies are gonna go back.
Uh,
and I may have quoted seven years before I believe it's actually five.
I'm gonna go back at least five years.
Well,
what,
you know,
in that five years before that du I is,
you know,
five years old,
right?
That whole time where you need to be making money,
(39:45):
it's gonna be very difficult for you to find employment.
Um,
you're looked at as an insurance risk.
You made a decision that,
that paints you on paper as more likely than not to be involved in a crash.
Right.
So,
similarly with,
with,
um,
any drug,
right?
If you,
if you get caught operating the vehicle while under the influence of a drug,
(40:11):
you know,
some states,
at least I'll,
I'll speak to Missouri.
I know how I live in Kansas City,
so I know how it works.
In the state of Missouri.
There's two sides to AD U I or AD W I.
Right.
Whatever it is,
one is gonna be your driver's license,
it can affect your license.
So,
ad U I and how it affects your CD L.
Yes,
they are going to make it hell for you to get that CD L back.
(40:34):
But in the state of Missouri,
at least there's also a criminal side.
So you are charged administratively for your driver's license.
So how it affects your CD L but you're also going to receive a criminal charge that you then have to go to court for.
So you're seeing it on two fronts,
right?
So not only do you have an issue with your license going forward,
you're gonna have a criminal charge that shows when we run your background,
(40:57):
right?
So just it,
it definitely paints you in a more negative light when you have those types of things happen opposed to,
you know,
if you're,
if you violate on a random,
you weren't operating a vehicle,
that's a more proactive approach to then getting help.
That is why the government put a program in place that says,
(41:18):
hey,
you know,
you violated on a random drug test.
We're gonna allow you to go through substance abuse counseling.
We're gonna put you on a more stringent drug testing program.
And then if you can comply with those requirements,
you can continue to drive.
So there is a difference in,
in how the violation occurs,
(41:40):
I guess.
But the reality of it is it.
And if you're a company who's looking at,
whether you want to re retain a driver like that or hire a driver like that,
you know,
they're required by the government to spend more money on you,
giving you more drug tests,
it costs the company more money to keep you on as a driver than somebody who doesn't have that,
(42:04):
uh,
violation history.
So by no means would I want to make anyone think that if you make a mistake in life,
you know,
your life is over.
Um,
but it is definitely gonna create a lot more hoops for you to jump through as well as the company,
uh,
that you're working for.
And I,
you know,
you're gonna spend a lot of money.
(42:26):
It's not like,
you know,
when they say go get substance abuse counseling that the company is gonna pay for it.
That's a cost that's gonna come out of your pocket.
The government's not paying for it.
You are.
So,
you know,
if you want to get back in the truck,
you're gonna spend money on that counseling,
you're gonna spend money on an attorney to go protect your license.
(42:47):
It's a very costly mistake for something,
you know.
II,
I have personal friends that drive truck.
I have friends that work in construction.
Uh,
I'm former military so I've still got friends,
you know,
that are,
that are in the service and they're all held to the same standard and when you weigh the,
the risk versus reward,
you know.
yes,
(43:07):
there are benefits for the use of medical marijuana that people make those arguments.
But is that risk for your livelihood worth the,
the same benefit you may be able to get from Ibuprofen or you know,
an ice pack or some stretching.
Like there's,
there's other things you could do.
Don't use your,
you know,
don't use pain,
(43:29):
knee pain or back pain to ruin,
ruin your life.
Right.
Right.
And you know,
you mentioned the cost down the road,
um,
like inpatient substance abuse counseling or,
or rehab if you want to call it that,
that's not cheap.
That's a,
that's $1000 a night hotel that you're staying in with a lot of medical professionals around you to help you out.
And uh I gotta be honest,
(43:50):
I don't think Jason's cutting that check.
I think that one's coming out of your pocket like Garrett was saying.
So uh important to think about the consequences down the road and everything.
Jason,
I want to go back to you here because I'm th I'm trying to put myself in the boots of a driver here and I was thinking,
can you talk me through a little bit?
What the situation would be if I've just tested positive?
(44:14):
I haven't been caught driving under the influence.
I've been out on vacation for a few days.
Maybe I was at a house party or something like that.
I get caught up in this whole wheel.
What are the next steps for me?
Obviously,
you guys know about it.
Where do we go from here?
Yeah.
So a couple of scenarios there,
you know,
you have this scenario if you test positive for a random or a preemployment.
(44:37):
Well,
if it's preemployment,
that's an easy one.
You know,
you won't get the job if it's random,
uh,
nine times out of 10,
you know,
uh this,
this is where it becomes difficult because,
you know,
as a,
a small mid-sized family owned trucking business and,
you know,
trying to appease your workforce and regulators and insurers,
(45:01):
you know,
if you,
if you have someone that tested positive on a random and they've been working for you for 10 years,
you know,
we don't want to cast somebody to the curb and,
and terminate them right away.
You know,
that's the,
that's the heartstring part that,
that gets mixed in with all of the,
the firm black and white.
So,
you know,
like I said,
it's,
it's happened two or three times and the,
(45:23):
the most memorable one is we had a driver in Texas or Arizona get pulled into a scale and the officer smelled marijuana and searched the truck and found a little bit and we had to fly a driver down there and fly a driver back because we couldn't let him drive any longer,
(45:46):
you know,
immediately loses his job,
you know,
trucks just sitting there in the middle of nowhere.
And that's a big black mark,
you know,
for the driver and the company because that's on your record and,
and you're,
and you're sitting here thinking like,
what can you do from our shoes?
Which is why we're here talking about it today to start educating people more than,
(46:10):
you know,
if you're,
uh,
if you're gonna do something like that,
it could be really costly.
So what does it look like if you wanna get,
you know,
if you,
if you test positive,
we've done this,
you know,
uh,
on a random and you,
you've been working here a long time and,
you know,
our owners decide that we want,
uh,
hang tight with this driver for a while and put him through a substance abuse program and the return to duty process and give him an opportunity and that can be lengthy.
(46:37):
You know,
I've seen six months of drug testing up to three years of drug testing and,
and,
and you're taking on a huge risk and you're pushing that risk upstream to your insurers.
You know,
the folks that Garrett works with and,
and,
and your captive members.
So there's a lot of thought,
careful thought that goes into it,
(46:59):
um,
from a lot of different angles.
And I think that's part of this whole discussion and,
and how it's changing,
you know,
it's changing and not only how it's viewed in the insurance world and how it's viewed from an ownership and trucking,
uh executive,
you know,
standpoint and,
and how you interact with your workforce and,
and then the government,
you know,
if you look at the regulation,
(47:21):
there's a lot of people calling for change,
it hasn't happened.
So that's why it's still got to be a firm.
No,
but there's definitely a lot of movement in people saying it needs to change.
Well,
when,
when is that gonna be a year 1020 for now,
you gotta still follow the rules.
Yeah.
And I don't think there's an easy way to predict when that change is going to happen.
(47:44):
Jason,
because we've been talking about it since all the way back when Obama took office for the first time.
And,
and something that I've seen both in my experience in the industry and from the outside.
I uh working in an industry like this where,
you know,
it's,
it's kind of a no go and non touch type thing.
Politicians love these big heavy headlines that will,
(48:06):
you know,
if they say uh federal legalization of marijuana is around the corner in such and such is administration that's just trying to get them in.
That's just trying to put a news out there,
headlines out there to try to get people excited.
All the people that want it legalized are going to vote for that candidate,
all of them that don't,
are not going to vote for that candidate.
And that's typically where the buck stops.
(48:28):
If you look back at the history of different administrations coming in an administration getting elected for a second term,
they love these buzz words,
they love to talk marijuana legalization and then nothing happens after that.
So holding your breath and waiting for it isn't a good idea either.
It's just just no,
I mean,
it really does feel like that's where this whole conversation is kind of coming full circle to is uh if you want to protect the company,
(48:54):
you want to protect yourself,
the answer is no,
sorry,
just not in this line of work.
Yeah.
And if you know,
and Garrett,
you'll probably weigh on this.
I'm,
I'm even if they did do some sort of regulation change,
I don't know that I can stand on that side of the fence and support it because we drive big trucks with dangerous products in heavy heavily populated environments with uh traffic scenarios that are just nightmarish.
(49:21):
I,
I mean,
what's your take on that?
Garrett?
Would you even get behind,
uh you know,
supporting some,
some regulation on it,
you know?
It's a,
that's a very difficult question.
The fact of the matter is,
is you will never be able to operate a tractor trailer under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
And one of the parts that makes this difficult uh in terms of change is there is no effective way for law enforcement to tell whether you consumed marijuana a week ago or you are under the influence at the time operating that tractor trailer.
(50:02):
And that's really where the issue lies is,
you know,
it's,
it's gonna be very hard for them to stomach legislation,
removing,
say marijuana from drug testing for truck drivers without a way to test drivers for impairment.
You know,
we,
a lot of the times you hear the argument comparing to alcohol,
right?
You know,
(50:22):
um,
lots of people in multiple professions consume alcohol.
It's legal,
it's been legal since the 19 thirties after the after prohibition.
Um,
should you operate a tractor trailer under the influence of alcohol?
No.
Absolutely.
No.
It's a hard,
no,
every single time.
(50:43):
However,
when it comes to alcohol,
they are able to test for impairment versus,
you know,
you had a cocktail with a friend on a Tuesday night and now it's,
you know,
a Friday,
right?
Like it's,
it's a very different thing.
So it,
it is hard to,
to think of how could someone support allowing people to operate such heavy equipment under the influence of any drug,
(51:11):
whether it's alcohol,
marijuana,
methamphetamine.
I mean,
what you do is so serious,
uh,
in terms of,
you know,
keeping our country moving,
but also protecting the general public that's on these roadways.
Um,
you know,
a lot of the times truck drivers take the flack for that.
You know,
it's the dirty truck driver on the road trying to kill people.
(51:34):
Well,
I do a lot of driving for work too guys and it's not,
it's not always,
you,
you know,
there's a lot of the general public that that doesn't drive,
well,
let alone,
you know,
a truck driver and I just,
it's hard to fathom allowing drivers to be in a position where their reaction time is impaired and they're in a vehicle that weighs thousands upon thousands of pounds.
(51:55):
It's do I think that change in terms of how it's gonna be dealt with will come.
I,
I do believe that mainly,
you know,
it's hard,
it's hard to find drivers as it is.
And I think there's a lot of people who don't get into trucking because that's their,
you know,
that's their choice.
They choose,
they choose one over the other.
(52:15):
You know,
I can't be a truck driver because II,
I smoke marijuana or I,
you know,
I use CBD.
So it,
it has affected the driver market.
I think that,
that if anything will be a driving factor for,
like Jason said,
who knows when 2020 years,
10 years,
five years,
I think it will affect you know,
(52:35):
some change in the industry,
but at the end of the day,
will you ever be allowed to drive a tractor trailer while smoking a joint like you do a cigarette?
No,
it's,
it's never gonna be,
it's never gonna be that way.
Your job is way too,
way too serious and rightfully so I living out here in the state of Oregon,
uh,
as you guys know,
it's a very green state.
Uh,
We were,
(52:56):
you know,
one of the first states to go full decriminalization and legalization and all of that.
And I wouldn't trust a lot of these high drivers that I have to deal with around here,
uh with the keys to a power wheels,
let alone a Prius or uh a semi truck loaded down with £80,000 of goods on it.
It's just not safe.
(53:17):
It's,
it causes a butterfly effect.
I noticed that drivers that are high,
at least ones that I assume are high and there is a little bit of going into this as well,
but you're driving very slow.
They're stopping for an incredibly long time.
It's not always the most unsafe behavior that they're,
uh actually doing.
It's the fact that it's affecting everyone around them and all of a sudden you pull up to someplace that's normally a thoroughfare going 45 and somebody's crawling down the road at 15 miles an hour or somebody wants to turn out onto a,
(53:49):
a highway off of a side street and they pull out and it takes them forever to accelerate.
There's so many different little things that go into operating a vehicle and that's just a four Wheler talking,
uh that,
that you have to maintain control over to stay safe out there.
And it is exponentially harder to do in a big rig,
(54:10):
which is why the answer is just no,
it,
it's,
I mean,
we're gonna keep hitting that obviously because that's why we're having this conversation is to educate and inform.
But uh,
regardless of what the law book says in the state that you're in,
you're under the federal government's thumb here.
And,
uh,
it,
it's not gonna help you at all to,
uh to puff a little Chiba in your off time.
(54:31):
Trust me on that.
Uh Jason,
anything else before we let Garrett get back to work here?
We've,
uh,
we're,
we're coming up against the clock a little bit,
but I don't want to cut anybody off.
If there's more that needs to be said,
no,
I think that's the perfect lead in because one of the things I wanted to close with today is,
you know,
this podcast is for our,
uh our working force and our drivers.
(54:53):
So if you're listening to this and you want a part two or a follow up to it,
you have uh questions and thoughts or stories that,
you know,
as a driver,
you want to get on here with your,
you know,
peer and a couple of drivers,
three drivers or myself or anybody really and,
and continue this discussion,
(55:14):
you know,
I think that that's what we're looking for.
Um,
because if you are asking questions and we can get answers and continue the discussion,
ultimately,
that's just kind of continued,
you know,
training and education for everybody listening.
Well,
put Jason,
thank you for the time.
Really.
Appreciate you coming out today.
And uh,
also Garrett Larson,
again,
safety consultant for safety Management services company.
(55:37):
Uh Thank you.
The,
the insight and expertise coming from your side of the coin is,
is very appreciated and we really appreciate you being in here today.
I really appreciate you having me.
Thanks a bunch Garrett there.
You have it.
Liquid Trucking episode 11 of the Liquid Trucking podcast is in the books that was an educational and informative episode.
(56:05):
And I can't thank guys like Nick Meyer,
Jason Eisenman and Garrett Larson for sharing their time with us today.
Uh Garrett Larson,
we're gonna have him back.
Uh He's,
he's out there at Safety Management services company and he's got a lot of really good insight on the reasons uh why insurance companies make the decisions that they do and how it affects a trucking company,
(56:27):
like liquid,
such great stuff from him there.
And of course,
as always my guy,
Nick Meyer,
uh bringing the heat and Jason Eisenman.
Uh he's got that radio voice man.
I'll tell you sometimes I think in a second life or a different life,
Jason was like an AM radio star.
I'm talking talk radio,
all the people listening,
(56:48):
you know,
big market type stuff.
Like I could picture him out there in Omaha being the number 1 a.m. radio guy in the morning talking about all the issues.
I don't know something about that radio voice.
I just hear it.
There's a lot of those at Liquid Trucking.
Maybe that's the reason they wanted to do a podcast.
Are you guys trying to moonlight as broadcasters if you are?
(57:09):
I'm ok with it.
I could use the break and uh honestly,
I get sick of listening to myself.
So I want to listen to other people talk.
Thank you,
everybody that joined the podcast today and shared their time with us and thank you out there for listening.
Don't forget to click that subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening to us on that really helps us and it'll help,
you know,
when there's a new episode coming out as always doing them every week.
(57:33):
Wednesdays at 5 a.m. Central is when you'll hear the new episodes.
If you're out there looking for them,
we gotta put the brakes on this one.
I'm going home for the night.
We will see you next week right here on the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
Stay safe out there.
Thanks for tuning in and being the gold standard of drivers on the road.
Be sure to like and subscribe to the channel and tune in next week for another episode of the Liquid Trucking Podcast.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.