April 30, 2025 • 26 mins
In this deeply raw and heartfelt episode, hosts Gretchen and Lisa delve into the heavy topic of suicide, unpacking personal stories, public perceptions, and the damaging power of stigma. They offer unflinching honesty, resilience, and hope, reminding us all that healing begins when we start speaking out.
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🔍 Episode Summary
Gretchen and Lisa crack open the emotional complexities surrounding suicide, from attempted survival to loss, and share their journeys with unfiltered vulnerability. They explore how language shapes stigma and how powerful conversations can unravel decades of misunderstanding, shame, and silence.
🎓 Lessons Learned
- Words Matter: The way we discuss suicide ("committed" vs "died by") can either reinforce stigma or dismantle it.
- You’re Not Alone: Those who survived attempts and those grieving a suicide loss are not only survivors—they are parents, professionals, friends, and leaders.
- Be kind, always: You never know what battle someone may be fighting internally.
- Trust Falls Are Real: Opening up about mental health can feel like a trust fall, but there is a community ready to catch you.
- Mental Illness Is Not a Moral Failure: Suicide is often a result of mental illness, not a sign of weakness, sin, or selfishness.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The Survivors is brought to you by our friends at Calmory.
(00:04):
This podcast mentions suicide, mental illness, grief and loss, and may be triggering for
some listeners.
So please take care of your well-being by pausing or skipping any sections that feel uncomfortable
to you.
And if you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for support.
So you know what bugs me?
What bugs you?
Stigmas.
(00:25):
Stigmas bug me.
Stigmas like suicide is a bad thing, which we know it's not a good thing, but it's not
an immoral thing.
It's not an illegal thing.
It's a byproduct of an illness, right?
But there's this whole stigma that we just cannot break away from.
(00:46):
And it does, when I think about it, it drives me kind of crazy because like how do you change
public perception on something when it's shrouded in stigma?
And I love the fact that one of the things that you and I are going to be working so, so
hard to do is to just break that whole stigma apart because I can't stand it anymore.
(01:06):
Yeah.
And the worst part about having it as a stigma is like nobody wants to talk about it.
They just shy away from it.
The minute you say you're a suicide attempt survivor, people are like, "So."
Yeah, even if it gets funky.
And people back away and like it bothers me that we can't talk about it openly.
(01:30):
And like you said, that's why we're here.
We want to talk about it openly.
And yes, suicide is hard.
It's hard for the lost survivors.
It's very hard for those of us that are attempt survivors, right?
We got to a really dark place in our life.
And it took that for me to even open up about suicide.
(01:50):
You know, five years ago, this podcast would have never been in my wheelhouse because I had
an experience that now that I've been there and I'm living on the other side of that, I
want to be able to talk about it so that people don't get to the point where I got to where
I am telling you, I was less than two minutes away from figuring out a way to take my life.
(02:14):
Yeah.
And that's because I didn't know how to express what was going on in my head.
And then once I started doing that, you know, once I started opening up on the social media
and talking with more and more friends, it got easier, but people still shied away from
the topic.
Like it's so hard to even just say the word suicide.
(02:36):
And we need to change the perception of that word.
And what goes on in somebody's head when they're at that point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And it's terrifying.
So many aspects of this, all aspects of suicide are terrifying.
Being the person who's feeling like they need to end their life, being maybe a person who
(02:58):
knows someone who is feeling suicidal and you want to help like either side of it is terrifying.
But you know, being able to break this stigma comes down to in large part like the language
we use.
Like people can't get the help they need if they're too afraid of the stigma being attached
to them so they don't want to talk about it.
(03:19):
So we have to go back to like where it all starts if we're going to affect change in that
way.
Like I talk about this all the time and I know you and I have talked about this before,
but I feel like the root of all of it, it's the word choice we use.
Like it's how we've been taught in a, you know, from the time I can remember, I'm sure from
the time you can remember because you're so much older than I am.
(03:42):
Whatever.
I think seriously, I think the way we're all taught is, you know, someone committed suicide.
Like you look no further than that.
Like let's have that conversation right now because that's the foundation of moving
forward and how we move to change things on a global level.
And people stop using words like committed, attaching it to suicide.
(04:05):
Well, then maybe people won't have the perception that it's illegal or immoral or somehow inconceivable
that someone takes that action.
Like there's, there's a reason for it.
There's like the person is is ill.
The person is depressed.
The person is not in their right mind, not capable of making good judgments.
(04:26):
So of course they're going to get to a point where they're like, I just need this pain to
end and the only thing I have in my control is ending it because nothing else works.
Clearly they're at the end of their, their line.
And when we stop using that word because it's negative, any, look it up.
Any way you define the word commit, you know, in the context of mental illness, it's
(04:52):
going to be negative.
Like it's a sin or it's an illegal act.
And now we're, we're attaching it to this word that now anybody you use it with, all of
sudden that person is stigmatized.
That poor person who is not in control is stigmatized.
And it's such a bad place to be in, right?
(05:12):
Like being a suicide attempt survivor, all admit, like it took me a long time to even
be able to admit that I was a suicide attempt survivor or even use the word suicide in
front of that, you know, in the past I would just say, you know, I tried to take my life,
but we need to get the word out there and be, be okay, saying it and talking about it because
(05:35):
you really don't know what was going on in that person's head when they took their life.
There's so many things that are playing in our heads at that time, like you can't get
it to stop.
And now I'm going to get emotional.
I'm trying not to.
Okay.
This is a safe space.
It is a safe space.
I, like I said, I'm thankful I had 98 a month before it happened.
(05:58):
It's when I found out about that number.
Nobody knows like if you talk to 10 people, I bet you eight people don't know the number
98 at that.
You're right.
And, you know, as we said in our previous episode or a couple episodes ago, like you don't
have to be in a suicidal state to call that number.
Anybody can call that number.
(06:20):
Even to get to that point, to call that number, like that took a lot out of me because I,
you know, the thoughts were playing in the back of my head.
Well, if I commit suicide, you know, how's my wife going to explain this?
How is my family going to explain this?
How are my friends going to explain this?
Because there's so much stigma behind the word suicide.
(06:42):
And we need to change the perception of that word because people need to understand that
for me, it was a mental illness.
I was deeply depressed, right?
Things people do things in their life that they're ashamed of that could lead to suicide.
People are at a loss, right?
Maybe they lost their closest friend or family member and they don't know how to go on.
(07:04):
That can be a cause of suicide.
Like there's a lot that placed into that word and be okay using it.
Don't shy away from it because, and you may think it's a cry for help and it may be,
but talk about it and use your words.
You know how they tie you in school?
Use your words.
Use your words because those words are important.
(07:25):
They are, but at the same time, choose the words you use wisely.
You know, if we're trying to change the way people perceive someone with mental illness,
then we have to be sensitive and intentional in the way that we talk about that.
You know, you don't want to label someone as their illness, per se, right?
(07:47):
That you want to identify that that's part of them, that that's driving their behaviors,
that that's motivating their actions, things like that.
But, you know, I think that the more we change the vocabulary, the more we start to change
the overall perception because, you know, when you're in a state of mind that like, for
(08:07):
instance, you were in a couple of years ago, so many things playing in your head, right?
And I'm just guessing I wasn't in your head, but you and I have had so many conversations
about this, like you, I know you're laughing because thank God I wasn't in your head, but,
but, I mean, you're dealing with so many different things, like you're dealing with the issues
that are challenging you in that moment.
You're dealing with those feelings, whatever those feelings are of, I mean, some people
(08:32):
like hopelessness or, you know, anxiety or depression or worthlessness or all the different
things or, and then you're also dealing with the fact like, okay, I'm feeling all these
ways and the only way to get help is to admit that I'm feeling this way, but oh shit, when
I admit that I'm feeling this way, now I'm going to be labeled.
Now all of a sudden, I'm going to have this, this automatic stigma that's layered over
(08:56):
me and when anybody talks to me, this is what they're going to lead with and this is what
they're going to think in their mind and that's, that must be a hard thing to reconcile
with.
Like you said it yourself, you said you thought consciously like, oh my God, well, my family
think and do and what will my friends think and do and and look, there are, I think you
might even be in a minority in that case because I don't think a lot of people are thinking
(09:18):
beyond just the initial stress and strain and anxiety that they're feeling.
They're not even thinking about how their actions are going to really reflect out to
the rest of the world.
They're just thinking about making it all stop, but you know, in your case, you did have
that pause and you were thinking about it and it must be really hard to cross over to
that place of like, okay, something is happening that is not good and it's not going to end
(09:41):
well unless I take control of her.
Like I didn't understand what was going on.
All I knew is I was so depressed, so so depressed and I hadn't cried in months and I hadn't
let it all out.
I just, I let it all sit inside me and like I said, it was a glimmer.
(10:01):
I don't quite understand it.
But it was, you know, things could get better and that's all I heard was things could get
get better and that's why I made the call.
You know, when people think of me, you know, they think of me as, you know, successful and
friend and family member and wife and suicide attempt survivor and you know what, I'm okay
(10:27):
with that because I had a battle with myself.
And like I also say, it took me a couple of months to wrap my hand around that also, but I'm
much better person because of it.
I'm going to say like over the last couple of years, I've seen more and more talk of suicide
both positive and negatively, but more positive like on places like Lincoln and Instagram
(10:49):
and even TikTok, like even though TikTok is not my genre, we may have tried for years,
but we, people are talking about it and it's okay to use the word, like don't, don't steer
clear of it because it's something that we've all like those of us are attempt survivors.
We've been there.
We know it was going on in our heads.
(11:11):
We just, we need to use the word.
Use your word.
You know, it's feel like it's had this image of, you know, the trust falls you used to do
in gym class.
I just had this incredible image of a trust fall and I feel like in a lot of ways, that's
what this is.
That's what the whole concept of coming out of your shell or being vulnerable is all about.
(11:35):
It's like a giant trust fall into the arms of the community that you find yourself in
as a survivor, as an attempt survivor.
And there's this kind of blind faith in a way that we all, I think, have to submit to
at some point because there's like that, that gray space between struggling with the thing,
(11:58):
seeing support out there, knowing that people are out there, but how do I bridge that gap?
How do I, boy, get past the stigma, right?
How do I get past that?
And I think that, I think the antidote to that is trust.
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(12:22):
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And, you know, I think that, you know, people, you know, workplaces need to embrace this
also, right?
Because there's so much stigma around the work.
(12:44):
And if you go to your workplace and say, "Hey, I tried to, you know, commit, I, you know,
I tried to take my life, I wanted to commit suicide."
And people shy away from that because the workplaces are equipped to handle that, right?
And so they automatically place some stigma on that, could also place some limitations
(13:05):
on how far you go through the company and things like that.
You know, we're always being judged for the work suicide.
When in reality, we are still productive members of society.
We are still spouses.
We are still friends.
We are still co-workers.
We get back to the community.
We do all these things, but we get stigmatized because of the work suicide.
(13:28):
Yeah.
And we need to stop that because it makes it even worse for those of us that are trying
to heal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's like a barrier within a barrier.
And the thing that kills me, I think that really like irritates me when I really think about
it is.
So suicide is a result of a mental illness.
Mental illness is an illness, right?
You look at something like cancer, you look at something like heart disease, you look at
(13:49):
something like an accident of some kind that takes somebody's life.
There's no stigma.
There's no stigma.
Those people are sick.
Those people had to get treatment in some cases.
Those people maybe couldn't survive it in lots of cases.
No one's out there stigmatizing those people.
Their illness was beyond their control.
Their illness maybe was resistant to treatment.
(14:10):
They couldn't get help.
They maybe passed away.
Nobody's out there putting labels on them.
They're like, oh, that poor person, that poor person's family and, you know, all the support
and, you know, all the empathy in the world.
There's no stigma.
Then you flip over to our population of people, the survivors of the attempts and the survivors
(14:30):
of the loss and all of a sudden, it's like we're swimming in stigma.
That's all there is is stigma.
And it prevents us from grieving appropriately and it prevents us from healing quickly or
quicker.
And it's so unfortunate.
It's so unfortunate because it's so unnecessary.
Like if people just understood that it was beyond anyone's control, look, I, you know,
(14:52):
I think this is this is maybe a perfect opportunity for me to share what my own belief system
around suicide used to be.
Like you and I have talked about this.
When I was a little girl, my first experience losing anyone at all was a cousin and he
died by suicide.
So I was nine years old.
First time I experienced death.
First time I knew anything about suicide.
My parents never told me anything that would alter my belief system, like try to persuade
(15:18):
me in one way or another that suicide was a bad thing.
They were just very matter of fact about it.
Your cousin's brain was was broken in a way that we can't see and he was very depressed
in all those things.
So nobody fed me anything.
It was just like the truth and I kind of ran with that.
I developed that belief system that it was selfish.
(15:38):
And I think there's where the stigma part comes in.
I was one of those people who 100% believed there was a stigma attached to it all my life.
Quietly in my own heart wasn't anything I ever talked about.
And it was only after I learned about my father's suicide and learned that he was mentally ill
and learned that there were people in the world who could be that low and that desperate
(16:00):
and that hopeless.
And you never even saw it.
It didn't even have a clue.
And all of a sudden it was like a lightning bolt to my head when that belief system just
completely evaporated.
And I was like, oh my god, how wrong have I been all these years?
Like that's beyond someone's control.
That's the epiphany that I hope that you and I together can give to anybody who's listening
(16:23):
to this podcast.
And you know, I had the same belief system until it happened to me.
And I'm ashamed myself, right?
I'm ashamed that for all those years, you know, for 59 years that I believe that people
were being selfish and that it was the self, you know, there were other ways out.
(16:43):
But you go and you get into my shoes.
And at that point, that's exactly how I felt.
I didn't feel like I had any place else I could go.
And I just wanted the pain to stop and the depression to stop.
And all these weird feelings in my head to stop.
And now I'm a huge advocate for suicide awareness.
(17:04):
Like, and stopping the stigma and talking more openly about it and getting people to think.
And I don't know people just be a little kinder.
Okay, because you really honestly have zero idea what's going on in somebody else's head
unless you're in there with them.
Now you go to the cashier at the grocery store and they're kind of rude.
(17:28):
Okay, well, maybe there's some shit going on that you don't know about.
Just be nice, right?
And like if you find out from a friend or a loved one or a coworker or somebody either,
you know, committed suicide or they attempted fucking be nice.
Okay, because there's just a lot going on at that time.
(17:51):
And it's okay to use the word suicide.
It really is.
And the more we talk about it, the more it becomes a morph.
The more we talk about it, the less the stigma goes away.
Yeah, yeah.
It, you know, it's hard because you want to change it overnight.
You want people to just kind of snap into the reality of what this really is.
(18:12):
And it doesn't work that way.
And it takes time and it takes intentionality.
But, you know, it's just so important to kind of walk around in the world with empathy.
Not just for suicide survivors or people who have lost someone to suicides, it's in general.
Like in life, we need to be, we need to be way more cognizant, I think, of the fact that
(18:36):
we know such a tiny little sliver of what really happens in someone else's life.
Like, we have all these windows into other people's worlds, right?
We've got all the social media platforms and we've got, you know, everything is captured
on video and everyone has the ability to kind of curate their own image in the world if
(18:56):
they want to.
And the world sees like 1% of what someone's life is really like and has absolutely no idea
what's beneath the surface.
And so I think just we should all be walking around the world with just a more compassionate
heart like you're saying, like just be kind to people, just respect the fact that something's
going on that you may not know about that is affecting their mood or their behavior.
(19:22):
And in terms of like using words like suicide, like if you know, I can speak for myself, only
myself here when I say that as a survivor of suicide loss, I am benefited greatly when
people talk about my dad, when people ask me about my dad, when people ask me about my experience.
(19:43):
There's something about it when it happens for me, not only does it eliminate any kind
of stigma, but it also kind of elevates my dad back into the, you know, into the picture.
It makes me feel his presence more deeply, more acutely.
And if you're ever out there worried about talking to someone who's an attempt survivor,
(20:04):
talking to someone who's lost someone to suicide, it's incredibly valuable.
I've found myself and to anybody who I've ever talked to when you talk about it, the
worst thing in the world that you'll encounter is that somebody might say, you know, hey,
I just really, I'm just really not up for that conversation right now or I'd rather not
say like you're never going to offend someone because you want to, you want to talk about
(20:26):
it with them.
If anything, you're giving that person a signal that you're a safe space and that you
can be trusted and that you really care.
And I think the more of us who do that, that's how we create this community where talking
about this stuff openly is just acceptable.
And for me, like if anybody ever really wants to know my story, like the full story, reach
(20:47):
out, I can tell you what was going through my head.
I still remember the day as if it was today.
What was going on in my head?
What, what I felt, what I was doing, like I, I replay this day back in my mind a thousand
times a week.
But I don't have a problem talking about it.
(21:08):
You know what?
I didn't know that today because I made that call, but it took a lot of courage on my part,
even pick up the phone.
Yes, I'm a suicide attempt survivor, but you know what?
I worked really, really hard over the last two years and put a lot of work into myself.
And I feel better now than I've felt in 20 years and I want people to see me as a story
of hope.
(21:29):
But I still don't mind talking about suicide because it's part of my story.
That's a thing. That's just one facet of you.
That's one part of your lived experience.
That's one page in your bigger story.
And it's the same with any of us, like whether you're a survivor and you can connect with
what we talk about or not on whatever level you can connect with loss.
(21:52):
You can connect with stress.
You can connect with anxiety.
Like we're talking about suicide for sure.
This is the survivor's podcast.
So this is one of the main themes, but it's not the only theme.
Like we're talking about surviving things like grief, surviving things like loss, not even
just suicide related grief or loss.
(22:12):
We're talking about just being human and surviving life because it's hard.
Life is really, really hard and totally unpredictable.
And just when we think we kind of like got our footing, the floor just collapses underneath
us.
Now we are a work in progress.
We are always surviving.
(22:33):
And I feel like when we have the ability to talk about this stuff openly without fear
of judgment, without worrying that someone's going to hesitate around us again, we realize
that it's only one part of the much, much larger picture of who we all are as humans.
That's when everything changes.
That's when the playing field gets leveled.
(22:55):
And that's when I think you're going to see people come out of the woodwork, I think as
time passes, as platforms like ours and voices like ours start to permeate our culture
and people start to hear us talking, which gives them permission to start talking and all
of these voices become heard.
That's when I think you're going to see people really saying, "Okay, here I am.
(23:19):
I'm not okay either.
I'm not okay either."
And it's just I think going to be a beautiful kind of domino effect where people feel like
they don't have to hide behind the mask anymore, especially those extroverted people that you
and I talk about so often, people don't want to fake it anymore.
People could just be who they are and get the help that they need so they don't end up feeling
(23:40):
hopeless.
And the other thing too is suicide attempt survivors and suicide plot survivors.
Okay, that's just part of our story.
You know, it makes I'm so much more than that.
I'm successful in my career.
I'm a good friend.
I'm a good colleague.
I'm a great wife.
(24:00):
I get back to the community.
I do all the things, right?
So it's just part of my story, but I'm not afraid to say that yes, I'm a suicide loss survivor.
I'm here today and I want us to gather as a community and be able to talk freely about
this and use the word use the word suicide.
(24:22):
There's no stigma behind that.
It's part of my journey.
Yeah, yeah, it's part of your journey.
It's part of so many other millions of other people's journey.
And you know, we're all part of the same human experience.
And the irony is to all of this is that we all go through the same things.
(24:44):
Don't care where you live, what your religion is or your languages or your country of origin
is like we all grieve.
We all hurt.
We all love.
We all experience joy and pain and we are all surviving every single day.
We are surviving.
And now we get to do it together, you and I and hopefully we can we can chip away at this
(25:08):
big ugly stigma so that eventually it'll just be that much easier for everyone to survive.
Amen.
And this was such a great conversation and I can't wait to talk to you again next week.
I know, I can't either.
It's kind of making me wish it was next week already.
But we'll get there.
We'll get there.
Thanks for joining us on the survivors.
(25:29):
Remember, no matter how tough things feel, you are enough and the world means you're just
the way you are.
You're not alone in this journey.
There's a community here and every step forward counts.
We're so grateful you took the time to listen and we hope they'll take one day at a time.
Just know there's always more light ahead.
Thanks for being here friends.
Just remember, help is out there in so many different places.
(25:53):
So if you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 and a trained crisis counselor
like me will be there to help.
You can also find an inclusive and comprehensive directory of mental health resources, tools
and content at thehelphub.co.
Just remember that help is always just a call or a click away.
We'll catch you next week.
In the meantime, keep surviving.
(26:13):
[BLANK_AUDIO]
The Survivors is brought to you by our friends at Calmory.
(00:04):
This podcast mentions suicide, mental illness, grief and loss, and may be triggering for
some listeners.
So please take care of your well-being by pausing or skipping any sections that feel uncomfortable
to you.
And if you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for support.
So you know what bugs me?
What bugs you?
Stigmas.
(00:25):
Stigmas bug me.
Stigmas like suicide is a bad thing, which we know it's not a good thing, but it's not
an immoral thing.
It's not an illegal thing.
It's a byproduct of an illness, right?
But there's this whole stigma that we just cannot break away from.
(00:46):
And it does, when I think about it, it drives me kind of crazy because like how do you change
public perception on something when it's shrouded in stigma?
And I love the fact that one of the things that you and I are going to be working so, so
hard to do is to just break that whole stigma apart because I can't stand it anymore.
(01:06):
Yeah.
And the worst part about having it as a stigma is like nobody wants to talk about it.
They just shy away from it.
The minute you say you're a suicide attempt survivor, people are like, "So."
Yeah, even if it gets funky.
And people back away and like it bothers me that we can't talk about it openly.
(01:30):
And like you said, that's why we're here.
We want to talk about it openly.
And yes, suicide is hard.
It's hard for the lost survivors.
It's very hard for those of us that are attempt survivors, right?
We got to a really dark place in our life.
And it took that for me to even open up about suicide.
(01:50):
You know, five years ago, this podcast would have never been in my wheelhouse because I had
an experience that now that I've been there and I'm living on the other side of that, I
want to be able to talk about it so that people don't get to the point where I got to where
I am telling you, I was less than two minutes away from figuring out a way to take my life.
(02:14):
Yeah.
And that's because I didn't know how to express what was going on in my head.
And then once I started doing that, you know, once I started opening up on the social media
and talking with more and more friends, it got easier, but people still shied away from
the topic.
Like it's so hard to even just say the word suicide.
(02:36):
And we need to change the perception of that word.
And what goes on in somebody's head when they're at that point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And it's terrifying.
So many aspects of this, all aspects of suicide are terrifying.
Being the person who's feeling like they need to end their life, being maybe a person who
(02:58):
knows someone who is feeling suicidal and you want to help like either side of it is terrifying.
But you know, being able to break this stigma comes down to in large part like the language
we use.
Like people can't get the help they need if they're too afraid of the stigma being attached
to them so they don't want to talk about it.
(03:19):
So we have to go back to like where it all starts if we're going to affect change in that
way.
Like I talk about this all the time and I know you and I have talked about this before,
but I feel like the root of all of it, it's the word choice we use.
Like it's how we've been taught in a, you know, from the time I can remember, I'm sure from
the time you can remember because you're so much older than I am.
(03:42):
Whatever.
I think seriously, I think the way we're all taught is, you know, someone committed suicide.
Like you look no further than that.
Like let's have that conversation right now because that's the foundation of moving
forward and how we move to change things on a global level.
And people stop using words like committed, attaching it to suicide.
(04:05):
Well, then maybe people won't have the perception that it's illegal or immoral or somehow inconceivable
that someone takes that action.
Like there's, there's a reason for it.
There's like the person is is ill.
The person is depressed.
The person is not in their right mind, not capable of making good judgments.
(04:26):
So of course they're going to get to a point where they're like, I just need this pain to
end and the only thing I have in my control is ending it because nothing else works.
Clearly they're at the end of their, their line.
And when we stop using that word because it's negative, any, look it up.
Any way you define the word commit, you know, in the context of mental illness, it's
(04:52):
going to be negative.
Like it's a sin or it's an illegal act.
And now we're, we're attaching it to this word that now anybody you use it with, all of
sudden that person is stigmatized.
That poor person who is not in control is stigmatized.
And it's such a bad place to be in, right?
(05:12):
Like being a suicide attempt survivor, all admit, like it took me a long time to even
be able to admit that I was a suicide attempt survivor or even use the word suicide in
front of that, you know, in the past I would just say, you know, I tried to take my life,
but we need to get the word out there and be, be okay, saying it and talking about it because
(05:35):
you really don't know what was going on in that person's head when they took their life.
There's so many things that are playing in our heads at that time, like you can't get
it to stop.
And now I'm going to get emotional.
I'm trying not to.
Okay.
This is a safe space.
It is a safe space.
I, like I said, I'm thankful I had 98 a month before it happened.
(05:58):
It's when I found out about that number.
Nobody knows like if you talk to 10 people, I bet you eight people don't know the number
98 at that.
You're right.
And, you know, as we said in our previous episode or a couple episodes ago, like you don't
have to be in a suicidal state to call that number.
Anybody can call that number.
(06:20):
Even to get to that point, to call that number, like that took a lot out of me because I,
you know, the thoughts were playing in the back of my head.
Well, if I commit suicide, you know, how's my wife going to explain this?
How is my family going to explain this?
How are my friends going to explain this?
Because there's so much stigma behind the word suicide.
(06:42):
And we need to change the perception of that word because people need to understand that
for me, it was a mental illness.
I was deeply depressed, right?
Things people do things in their life that they're ashamed of that could lead to suicide.
People are at a loss, right?
Maybe they lost their closest friend or family member and they don't know how to go on.
(07:04):
That can be a cause of suicide.
Like there's a lot that placed into that word and be okay using it.
Don't shy away from it because, and you may think it's a cry for help and it may be,
but talk about it and use your words.
You know how they tie you in school?
Use your words.
Use your words because those words are important.
(07:25):
They are, but at the same time, choose the words you use wisely.
You know, if we're trying to change the way people perceive someone with mental illness,
then we have to be sensitive and intentional in the way that we talk about that.
You know, you don't want to label someone as their illness, per se, right?
(07:47):
That you want to identify that that's part of them, that that's driving their behaviors,
that that's motivating their actions, things like that.
But, you know, I think that the more we change the vocabulary, the more we start to change
the overall perception because, you know, when you're in a state of mind that like, for
(08:07):
instance, you were in a couple of years ago, so many things playing in your head, right?
And I'm just guessing I wasn't in your head, but you and I have had so many conversations
about this, like you, I know you're laughing because thank God I wasn't in your head, but,
but, I mean, you're dealing with so many different things, like you're dealing with the issues
that are challenging you in that moment.
You're dealing with those feelings, whatever those feelings are of, I mean, some people
(08:32):
like hopelessness or, you know, anxiety or depression or worthlessness or all the different
things or, and then you're also dealing with the fact like, okay, I'm feeling all these
ways and the only way to get help is to admit that I'm feeling this way, but oh shit, when
I admit that I'm feeling this way, now I'm going to be labeled.
Now all of a sudden, I'm going to have this, this automatic stigma that's layered over
(08:56):
me and when anybody talks to me, this is what they're going to lead with and this is what
they're going to think in their mind and that's, that must be a hard thing to reconcile
with.
Like you said it yourself, you said you thought consciously like, oh my God, well, my family
think and do and what will my friends think and do and and look, there are, I think you
might even be in a minority in that case because I don't think a lot of people are thinking
(09:18):
beyond just the initial stress and strain and anxiety that they're feeling.
They're not even thinking about how their actions are going to really reflect out to
the rest of the world.
They're just thinking about making it all stop, but you know, in your case, you did have
that pause and you were thinking about it and it must be really hard to cross over to
that place of like, okay, something is happening that is not good and it's not going to end
(09:41):
well unless I take control of her.
Like I didn't understand what was going on.
All I knew is I was so depressed, so so depressed and I hadn't cried in months and I hadn't
let it all out.
I just, I let it all sit inside me and like I said, it was a glimmer.
(10:01):
I don't quite understand it.
But it was, you know, things could get better and that's all I heard was things could get
get better and that's why I made the call.
You know, when people think of me, you know, they think of me as, you know, successful and
friend and family member and wife and suicide attempt survivor and you know what, I'm okay
(10:27):
with that because I had a battle with myself.
And like I also say, it took me a couple of months to wrap my hand around that also, but I'm
much better person because of it.
I'm going to say like over the last couple of years, I've seen more and more talk of suicide
both positive and negatively, but more positive like on places like Lincoln and Instagram
(10:49):
and even TikTok, like even though TikTok is not my genre, we may have tried for years,
but we, people are talking about it and it's okay to use the word, like don't, don't steer
clear of it because it's something that we've all like those of us are attempt survivors.
We've been there.
We know it was going on in our heads.
(11:11):
We just, we need to use the word.
Use your word.
You know, it's feel like it's had this image of, you know, the trust falls you used to do
in gym class.
I just had this incredible image of a trust fall and I feel like in a lot of ways, that's
what this is.
That's what the whole concept of coming out of your shell or being vulnerable is all about.
(11:35):
It's like a giant trust fall into the arms of the community that you find yourself in
as a survivor, as an attempt survivor.
And there's this kind of blind faith in a way that we all, I think, have to submit to
at some point because there's like that, that gray space between struggling with the thing,
(11:58):
seeing support out there, knowing that people are out there, but how do I bridge that gap?
How do I, boy, get past the stigma, right?
How do I get past that?
And I think that, I think the antidote to that is trust.
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(12:22):
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100%.
And, you know, I think that, you know, people, you know, workplaces need to embrace this
also, right?
Because there's so much stigma around the work.
(12:44):
And if you go to your workplace and say, "Hey, I tried to, you know, commit, I, you know,
I tried to take my life, I wanted to commit suicide."
And people shy away from that because the workplaces are equipped to handle that, right?
And so they automatically place some stigma on that, could also place some limitations
(13:05):
on how far you go through the company and things like that.
You know, we're always being judged for the work suicide.
When in reality, we are still productive members of society.
We are still spouses.
We are still friends.
We are still co-workers.
We get back to the community.
We do all these things, but we get stigmatized because of the work suicide.
(13:28):
Yeah.
And we need to stop that because it makes it even worse for those of us that are trying
to heal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's like a barrier within a barrier.
And the thing that kills me, I think that really like irritates me when I really think about
it is.
So suicide is a result of a mental illness.
Mental illness is an illness, right?
You look at something like cancer, you look at something like heart disease, you look at
(13:49):
something like an accident of some kind that takes somebody's life.
There's no stigma.
There's no stigma.
Those people are sick.
Those people had to get treatment in some cases.
Those people maybe couldn't survive it in lots of cases.
No one's out there stigmatizing those people.
Their illness was beyond their control.
Their illness maybe was resistant to treatment.
(14:10):
They couldn't get help.
They maybe passed away.
Nobody's out there putting labels on them.
They're like, oh, that poor person, that poor person's family and, you know, all the support
and, you know, all the empathy in the world.
There's no stigma.
Then you flip over to our population of people, the survivors of the attempts and the survivors
(14:30):
of the loss and all of a sudden, it's like we're swimming in stigma.
That's all there is is stigma.
And it prevents us from grieving appropriately and it prevents us from healing quickly or
quicker.
And it's so unfortunate.
It's so unfortunate because it's so unnecessary.
Like if people just understood that it was beyond anyone's control, look, I, you know,
(14:52):
I think this is this is maybe a perfect opportunity for me to share what my own belief system
around suicide used to be.
Like you and I have talked about this.
When I was a little girl, my first experience losing anyone at all was a cousin and he
died by suicide.
So I was nine years old.
First time I experienced death.
First time I knew anything about suicide.
My parents never told me anything that would alter my belief system, like try to persuade
(15:18):
me in one way or another that suicide was a bad thing.
They were just very matter of fact about it.
Your cousin's brain was was broken in a way that we can't see and he was very depressed
in all those things.
So nobody fed me anything.
It was just like the truth and I kind of ran with that.
I developed that belief system that it was selfish.
(15:38):
And I think there's where the stigma part comes in.
I was one of those people who 100% believed there was a stigma attached to it all my life.
Quietly in my own heart wasn't anything I ever talked about.
And it was only after I learned about my father's suicide and learned that he was mentally ill
and learned that there were people in the world who could be that low and that desperate
(16:00):
and that hopeless.
And you never even saw it.
It didn't even have a clue.
And all of a sudden it was like a lightning bolt to my head when that belief system just
completely evaporated.
And I was like, oh my god, how wrong have I been all these years?
Like that's beyond someone's control.
That's the epiphany that I hope that you and I together can give to anybody who's listening
(16:23):
to this podcast.
And you know, I had the same belief system until it happened to me.
And I'm ashamed myself, right?
I'm ashamed that for all those years, you know, for 59 years that I believe that people
were being selfish and that it was the self, you know, there were other ways out.
(16:43):
But you go and you get into my shoes.
And at that point, that's exactly how I felt.
I didn't feel like I had any place else I could go.
And I just wanted the pain to stop and the depression to stop.
And all these weird feelings in my head to stop.
And now I'm a huge advocate for suicide awareness.
(17:04):
Like, and stopping the stigma and talking more openly about it and getting people to think.
And I don't know people just be a little kinder.
Okay, because you really honestly have zero idea what's going on in somebody else's head
unless you're in there with them.
Now you go to the cashier at the grocery store and they're kind of rude.
(17:28):
Okay, well, maybe there's some shit going on that you don't know about.
Just be nice, right?
And like if you find out from a friend or a loved one or a coworker or somebody either,
you know, committed suicide or they attempted fucking be nice.
Okay, because there's just a lot going on at that time.
(17:51):
And it's okay to use the word suicide.
It really is.
And the more we talk about it, the more it becomes a morph.
The more we talk about it, the less the stigma goes away.
Yeah, yeah.
It, you know, it's hard because you want to change it overnight.
You want people to just kind of snap into the reality of what this really is.
(18:12):
And it doesn't work that way.
And it takes time and it takes intentionality.
But, you know, it's just so important to kind of walk around in the world with empathy.
Not just for suicide survivors or people who have lost someone to suicides, it's in general.
Like in life, we need to be, we need to be way more cognizant, I think, of the fact that
(18:36):
we know such a tiny little sliver of what really happens in someone else's life.
Like, we have all these windows into other people's worlds, right?
We've got all the social media platforms and we've got, you know, everything is captured
on video and everyone has the ability to kind of curate their own image in the world if
(18:56):
they want to.
And the world sees like 1% of what someone's life is really like and has absolutely no idea
what's beneath the surface.
And so I think just we should all be walking around the world with just a more compassionate
heart like you're saying, like just be kind to people, just respect the fact that something's
going on that you may not know about that is affecting their mood or their behavior.
(19:22):
And in terms of like using words like suicide, like if you know, I can speak for myself, only
myself here when I say that as a survivor of suicide loss, I am benefited greatly when
people talk about my dad, when people ask me about my dad, when people ask me about my experience.
(19:43):
There's something about it when it happens for me, not only does it eliminate any kind
of stigma, but it also kind of elevates my dad back into the, you know, into the picture.
It makes me feel his presence more deeply, more acutely.
And if you're ever out there worried about talking to someone who's an attempt survivor,
(20:04):
talking to someone who's lost someone to suicide, it's incredibly valuable.
I've found myself and to anybody who I've ever talked to when you talk about it, the
worst thing in the world that you'll encounter is that somebody might say, you know, hey,
I just really, I'm just really not up for that conversation right now or I'd rather not
say like you're never going to offend someone because you want to, you want to talk about
(20:26):
it with them.
If anything, you're giving that person a signal that you're a safe space and that you
can be trusted and that you really care.
And I think the more of us who do that, that's how we create this community where talking
about this stuff openly is just acceptable.
And for me, like if anybody ever really wants to know my story, like the full story, reach
(20:47):
out, I can tell you what was going through my head.
I still remember the day as if it was today.
What was going on in my head?
What, what I felt, what I was doing, like I, I replay this day back in my mind a thousand
times a week.
But I don't have a problem talking about it.
(21:08):
You know what?
I didn't know that today because I made that call, but it took a lot of courage on my part,
even pick up the phone.
Yes, I'm a suicide attempt survivor, but you know what?
I worked really, really hard over the last two years and put a lot of work into myself.
And I feel better now than I've felt in 20 years and I want people to see me as a story
of hope.
(21:29):
But I still don't mind talking about suicide because it's part of my story.
That's a thing. That's just one facet of you.
That's one part of your lived experience.
That's one page in your bigger story.
And it's the same with any of us, like whether you're a survivor and you can connect with
what we talk about or not on whatever level you can connect with loss.
(21:52):
You can connect with stress.
You can connect with anxiety.
Like we're talking about suicide for sure.
This is the survivor's podcast.
So this is one of the main themes, but it's not the only theme.
Like we're talking about surviving things like grief, surviving things like loss, not even
just suicide related grief or loss.
(22:12):
We're talking about just being human and surviving life because it's hard.
Life is really, really hard and totally unpredictable.
And just when we think we kind of like got our footing, the floor just collapses underneath
us.
Now we are a work in progress.
We are always surviving.
(22:33):
And I feel like when we have the ability to talk about this stuff openly without fear
of judgment, without worrying that someone's going to hesitate around us again, we realize
that it's only one part of the much, much larger picture of who we all are as humans.
That's when everything changes.
That's when the playing field gets leveled.
(22:55):
And that's when I think you're going to see people come out of the woodwork, I think as
time passes, as platforms like ours and voices like ours start to permeate our culture
and people start to hear us talking, which gives them permission to start talking and all
of these voices become heard.
That's when I think you're going to see people really saying, "Okay, here I am.
(23:19):
I'm not okay either.
I'm not okay either."
And it's just I think going to be a beautiful kind of domino effect where people feel like
they don't have to hide behind the mask anymore, especially those extroverted people that you
and I talk about so often, people don't want to fake it anymore.
People could just be who they are and get the help that they need so they don't end up feeling
(23:40):
hopeless.
And the other thing too is suicide attempt survivors and suicide plot survivors.
Okay, that's just part of our story.
You know, it makes I'm so much more than that.
I'm successful in my career.
I'm a good friend.
I'm a good colleague.
I'm a great wife.
(24:00):
I get back to the community.
I do all the things, right?
So it's just part of my story, but I'm not afraid to say that yes, I'm a suicide loss survivor.
I'm here today and I want us to gather as a community and be able to talk freely about
this and use the word use the word suicide.
(24:22):
There's no stigma behind that.
It's part of my journey.
Yeah, yeah, it's part of your journey.
It's part of so many other millions of other people's journey.
And you know, we're all part of the same human experience.
And the irony is to all of this is that we all go through the same things.
(24:44):
Don't care where you live, what your religion is or your languages or your country of origin
is like we all grieve.
We all hurt.
We all love.
We all experience joy and pain and we are all surviving every single day.
We are surviving.
And now we get to do it together, you and I and hopefully we can we can chip away at this
(25:08):
big ugly stigma so that eventually it'll just be that much easier for everyone to survive.
Amen.
And this was such a great conversation and I can't wait to talk to you again next week.
I know, I can't either.
It's kind of making me wish it was next week already.
But we'll get there.
We'll get there.
Thanks for joining us on the survivors.
(25:29):
Remember, no matter how tough things feel, you are enough and the world means you're just
the way you are.
You're not alone in this journey.
There's a community here and every step forward counts.
We're so grateful you took the time to listen and we hope they'll take one day at a time.
Just know there's always more light ahead.
Thanks for being here friends.
Just remember, help is out there in so many different places.
(25:53):
So if you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 and a trained crisis counselor
like me will be there to help.
You can also find an inclusive and comprehensive directory of mental health resources, tools
and content at thehelphub.co.
Just remember that help is always just a call or a click away.
We'll catch you next week.
In the meantime, keep surviving.
(26:13):
[BLANK_AUDIO]
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